| Revision as of 21:26, 5 June 2006 editJbolden1517 (talk | contribs)5,334 edits →Objection to jbolden: pudgenet, trying again← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 06:58, 5 August 2021 edit undoMalnadachBot (talk | contribs)11,637,095 editsm Fixed Lint errors in signatures. (Task 2)Tag: AWB | ||
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| # Mediation participants cannot complain about one another's behavior. I will take care of all disciplinary problems. They are free to disagree about content written by another editor in a respectful manner. | # Mediation participants cannot complain about one another's behavior. I will take care of all disciplinary problems. They are free to disagree about content written by another editor in a respectful manner. | ||
| # In the beginnign editors will talk to me, I'll be mediating the conversation as well as the content. As time progresses I will move further and further away from controlling the debate. | # In the beginnign editors will talk to me, I'll be mediating the conversation as well as the content. As time progresses I will move further and further away from controlling the debate. | ||
| : ] |
: ]] 13:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC) | ||
| == Participants == | == Participants == | ||
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| *] | *] | ||
| *] | *] | ||
| *] | *] - yes | ||
| * ] - we pretty much had concensus before, but the mediator didn't like it. I'd like to respectfully request another mediator. | * ] - we pretty much had concensus before, but the mediator didn't like it. I'd like to respectfully request another mediator. | ||
| * ] | * ] - no | ||
| * ] - Will try to be involved but agree with others that this seems to be tail chasing. | * ] - Will try to be involved but agree with others that this seems to be tail chasing. | ||
| * ] - Would like to be involved | * ] - Would like to be involved | ||
| * ] - I want to be involved. | * ] - I want to be involved. | ||
| * ] - I will follow the debate but don't have any technical expertise to contribute. | |||
| * ] – I'm here to help solve the problem. | |||
| : Mediation is over. The , as has, for the most part, the . -- ] 21:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Objections/clarifications == | == Objections/clarifications == | ||
| Here is a place to discuss objections and request clarifications to the ground rules above. ] |
Here is a place to discuss objections and request clarifications to the ground rules above. ]] 12:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC) | ||
| Objections to the whole process or me personally should be taken to ] | |||
| ===reply to Scarpia=== | ===reply to Scarpia=== | ||
| Line 34: | Line 38: | ||
| # Alternately you can ask Durin to dismiss me for for cause (I'm assuming either incompetence or bias is the charge), in which case it remains with the cabal but not with me. | # Alternately you can ask Durin to dismiss me for for cause (I'm assuming either incompetence or bias is the charge), in which case it remains with the cabal but not with me. | ||
| However, while you are unlikely to believe me, given Durin's previous intervention, my comments and Simetrical comments on the RFC its unlikely this objection regarding consensus is going to be accepted. You have had 3 experienced and independent people with no history of intervention on Perl indicate they were unhappy with the consensus you all had established. "Upper management" is not going to want to reestablish this consensus. However, success will be almost impossible unless you do this as a team. Moreover it can take a month or more for a mediation committee member to be assigned even if the case is accepted which is going to take a long time without clarity. If you would like I can set up a page for you to discuss with the rest of the pro Perl group whether they want to move for a replacement and if so which of the two methods they would like to use. Let me know. ] |
However, while you are unlikely to believe me, given Durin's previous intervention, my comments and Simetrical comments on the RFC its unlikely this objection regarding consensus is going to be accepted. You have had 3 experienced and independent people with no history of intervention on Perl indicate they were unhappy with the consensus you all had established. "Upper management" is not going to want to reestablish this consensus. However, success will be almost impossible unless you do this as a team. Moreover it can take a month or more for a mediation committee member to be assigned even if the case is accepted which is going to take a long time without clarity. If you would like I can set up a page for you to discuss with the rest of the pro Perl group whether they want to move for a replacement and if so which of the two methods they would like to use. Let me know. ]] 17:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC) | ||
| ===Reply to Barry=== | ===Reply to Barry=== | ||
| In addition, I believe he should have been banned for other things. Therefore, I support the deletion of his posts to this page and I suggest he find another outlet for his complaints. ] 20:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC) | In addition, I believe he should have been banned for other things. Therefore, I support the deletion of his posts to this page and I suggest he find another outlet for his complaints. ] 20:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC) | ||
| :Barry. I've added another rule to address this issue. ] |
:Barry. I've added another rule to address this issue. ]] 20:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) | ||
| === |
===Durin=== | ||
| You are unfit to mediate this discussion. Contrary to ] policy, you assert that compliance is required in this article; in the original mediation article, you a position in the dispute; and you when there was none, thereby violating the notion that consensus is required. | |||
| Durin's role must be clarified here. Not even he understands what it is. Perhaps you should comment that part out until you two can come to agreement, and then make it clear to everyone else? | |||
| All of those things are clearly against mediation policy, which states that you may only suggest, not impose; that you may not advocate a position in dispute; and that you are supposed to find consensus, not declare it. Granted, you may simply have been confused, thinking that agreement of one person against Barry constituted agreement of everyone else, but when you were made aware the dispute was not resolved, you did not retract, even when Barry started complaining that his edits to the effect of your decision had been reverted: they were reverted because you were incorrect, there was no agreement, despite your claim to the contrary. | |||
| *My role in terms of what Jbolden1517 is expecting of me has been clarified to my satisfaction. My role in terms of what I wish or will do here will not be restricted; I'll take what actions I deem appropriate. --] 21:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Page Locking=== | |||
| And then you removed my about all this, falsely asserting that I was trolling. | |||
| You should point to the Misplaced Pages document that gives you the authority to effectively force mediation by locking the page, and explain how this does not conflict with the principle that mediation is voluntary. | |||
| I state again: if this is not the proper forum for objections to the process, as you clearly stated that it is, then you should explain that further. Or you should respond directly to my objections. That you keep removing my objections, which contain a clear record of misdeeds, only demonstrates that you are not acting in good faith. And removing my objections, which do not violate any ground rules set up, nor any Misplaced Pages policy, but then retaining Barry's comments, quoting them yourself, when they constitute a direct violation of one of your ground rules, only highlight that even more. | |||
| :scapia in answer to your question: | |||
| I am doing my best to ensure the Perl article is a good one, and I think you are a terrible danger to that, worse than Barry, because with him, at least we can forge a reasonable consensus, but you have a demonstrated record of bypassing consensus and dictating content. And it is my right to object, and to do it here. If this were not true, surely you or Durin would have informed me of this by now, pointing me to some page that shows me where I've gone wrong, and you would have used it as evidence to get me blocked, as you are ]. Simply calling me a troll and removing my objections is insufficient: quite clearly, the record shows there is a real problem here, and it won't go away just by you removing my objections from the Objections section. ] 20:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : ] | |||
| :* Enforcing a "cool down" period to stop an "edit war," upon request. | |||
| : In answer to your other questions. Yes this kind of active intervention in an environment of extreme hostility and personal attacks does involve ''censorship''. | |||
| : ] | |||
| ⚫ | : ]] 03:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC) | ||
| ===New mediation page?=== | |||
| Will further mediation take place ] or on a new page? If on a new page, then maybe that old mediation page should be locked along with the original mediation page. Steve posted to Talk:Perl_Mediation just now and I don't know whether he's in violation of your new rules or whether I can respond. ] 17:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Neither. I'll be creating topic pages. That's why I've started what amounts to a mediation directory structure. The old page will be "archive 1" very shortly. But this is the first topic to mediate, ground rules, policy and who is involved. As for that discussion everyone seems to be acting civilly and in good faith. Big problem is Steve hasn't joined in yet. ]] 00:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : I replied to your first objection. Since then you have been unacceptably rude. This one is a little better so I will attempt again. | |||
| # If you object to me as a mediator I've informed you about the appropriate methods of complaint are. You either discuss with Durin or ask the mediation committee to take the case. I will set up a seperate page for either of these two purposes. I will not have this discussion interfere with the mediation process. | |||
| # If you object to the rules I am impossing you can take it up with Durin. If he rules in my favor then you can file RFC against me, him or both. If he rules in your favor I'm gone. | |||
| # I will happy accept polite, reasonable discussions to make minor modifications to the rules as I've established them. This is meant to be a mediated process and if everyone would like some changes that's fine. | |||
| ## A complete overhaul is out of scope. | |||
| ## You are free to establish your own subpage in User Talk:Pudgenet outlining all the reasons why a complete overhaul should occur and I will allow a link to it. | |||
| ## I will not allow you to interfere with productive discussion about the mediation process by objecting to whether there should be such a process. Mediation is one of the two established process prior to arbitration. My primary obligation is to either resolve the underlying issues or create a situation where the issues are clear enough for simple arbitration. Right now this case is far too murky to go to arbitration. | |||
| # Comments on talk pages that contain both insults and content can be deleted, and will be. | |||
| # And frankly the subcase which is getting closest to being ready to go to arbitration is a ban on Pudgenet for interfering in a mediation process. | |||
| # For the last 6 hours you have gotten a taste of what Barry has had to put with for 3 months. I hope this has given you some insight as to why the people who have examined this case found this behavior unacceptable. | |||
| ⚫ | : ] |
||
Latest revision as of 06:58, 5 August 2021
Mediation with a stick
My last attempt at mediation failed, primarily because people were not willing to participate in mediation nor to honor the outcomes of mediation. I am not here as an editor and I am not going to join in the battle, I’m here to resolve the battle and help you all to create a great Perl article. That is an article that describes Perl in a way that is accurate, informative and neutral in its point of view. Because of previous non cooperation this requires a partial escalation. This article is now under a mediation process and the ground rules under which it is administrated will change.
- I will establish mediation discussions on subsection of the article. Only people participating in the mediation process can have input on those areas of the article. They can still however edit other areas of the article. That is it is not mandatory that you participate but if you don't participate you waive your rights to have input on sections put under mediation. As mediation progress this may become a larger and larger percentage of the article.
- Any subsection of the article under mediation cannot be edited directly, unless I otherwise indicate. I will perform the edits. My edits to the main article are never reverted. Reverting or undoing an edit of mine will result in either a warning or a block. Repeated violations will result in a ban from editing the Perl article for the duration of the mediation process.
- Durin (talk · contribs) will be my administrative supervisor, if at any point you consider my actions either grossly unfair or immoral you may appeal to him. You may not under any circumstances take direct action to reverse my actions.
- Mediation participants cannot complain about one another's behavior. I will take care of all disciplinary problems. They are free to disagree about content written by another editor in a respectful manner.
- In the beginnign editors will talk to me, I'll be mediating the conversation as well as the content. As time progresses I will move further and further away from controlling the debate.
Participants
Please indicate next to your name whether you would like to be involved or not. If you are not on the list and would like to be please add yourself.
- Harmil
- Imroy
- Steve p - yes
- Scarpia - we pretty much had concensus before, but the mediator didn't like it. I'd like to respectfully request another mediator.
- Pudge - no
- RevRagnarok - Will try to be involved but agree with others that this seems to be tail chasing.
- -Barry- - Would like to be involved
- User:Swmcd - I want to be involved.
- User:Ideogram - I will follow the debate but don't have any technical expertise to contribute.
- Eric R. Meyers – I'm here to help solve the problem.
- Mediation is over. The mediator has left Misplaced Pages, as has, for the most part, the main person the mediation was respecting. -- Pudge 21:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Objections/clarifications
Here is a place to discuss objections and request clarifications to the ground rules above. jbolden1517 12:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Objections to the whole process or me personally should be taken to Talk:Perl Mediation/New Mediator
reply to Scarpia
Scarpia - we pretty much had concensus before, but the mediator didn't like it. I'd like to respectfully request another mediator. Reasonable request, here is the proper procedure.
- I can be replaced by any member of the mediation committee (which is the policy for escalation of mediation). Basically you file an application and if they accept the case I'm out.
- Alternately you can ask Durin to dismiss me for for cause (I'm assuming either incompetence or bias is the charge), in which case it remains with the cabal but not with me.
However, while you are unlikely to believe me, given Durin's previous intervention, my comments and Simetrical comments on the RFC its unlikely this objection regarding consensus is going to be accepted. You have had 3 experienced and independent people with no history of intervention on Perl indicate they were unhappy with the consensus you all had established. "Upper management" is not going to want to reestablish this consensus. However, success will be almost impossible unless you do this as a team. Moreover it can take a month or more for a mediation committee member to be assigned even if the case is accepted which is going to take a long time without clarity. If you would like I can set up a page for you to discuss with the rest of the pro Perl group whether they want to move for a replacement and if so which of the two methods they would like to use. Let me know. jbolden1517 17:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Reply to Barry
In addition, I believe he should have been banned for other things. Therefore, I support the deletion of his posts to this page and I suggest he find another outlet for his complaints. -Barry- 20:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Barry. I've added another rule to address this issue. jbolden1517 20:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Durin
Durin's role must be clarified here. Not even he understands what it is. Perhaps you should comment that part out until you two can come to agreement, and then make it clear to everyone else?
- My role in terms of what Jbolden1517 is expecting of me has been clarified to my satisfaction. My role in terms of what I wish or will do here will not be restricted; I'll take what actions I deem appropriate. --Durin 21:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Page Locking
You should point to the Misplaced Pages document that gives you the authority to effectively force mediation by locking the page, and explain how this does not conflict with the principle that mediation is voluntary.
- scapia in answer to your question:
- Misplaced Pages:Protection_policy#A_temporary_protection_is_used_for:
- Enforcing a "cool down" period to stop an "edit war," upon request.
- In answer to your other questions. Yes this kind of active intervention in an environment of extreme hostility and personal attacks does involve censorship.
- ]
- jbolden1517 03:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
New mediation page?
Will further mediation take place here or on a new page? If on a new page, then maybe that old mediation page should be locked along with the original mediation page. Steve posted to Talk:Perl_Mediation just now and I don't know whether he's in violation of your new rules or whether I can respond. -Barry- 17:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Neither. I'll be creating topic pages. That's why I've started what amounts to a mediation directory structure. The old page will be "archive 1" very shortly. But this is the first topic to mediate, ground rules, policy and who is involved. As for that discussion everyone seems to be acting civilly and in good faith. Big problem is Steve hasn't joined in yet. jbolden1517 00:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)