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== The islamic view ==
== Occupation of the Principality of Kastrioti ruled by Skanderbeg's brothers ==

The article is almost exclusively presenting the western-albanian view on the subject. However, there is a good volume of islamic/ottoman historiography on Sk., claiming that the western is "propaganda". Of course the islamic historiography can also be characterized as "propaganda", but the spirit of WP is to present all views, so as to produce the famous "neutral p.o.v.". Would it be proper to open a section presenting the islamic (or pro-Ottoman / Turkish) point of view? ] (]) 19:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

:Your point being? ] (]) 12:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

KOPAŃSKI, A. B. (1997). ISLAMIZATION OF ALBANIANS IN THE MIDDLE AGES: THE PRIMARY SOURCES AND THE PREDICAMENT OF THE MODERN HISTORIOGRAPHY. Islamic Studies, 36(2/3), 191–208. http://www.jstor.org/stable/23076194
* Ivan Kastrioti, serbo-albanian war lord (p. 195).
* The clans of southern and central Albanians refused to join Skanderbeg.
* Kastrioti and others received every year 1.400 golden ducats from the Pope.


:] on the first two. Gjon Kastrioti was most definitely not Serbo-Albanian, and some of the southern and central clans did indeed join Skanderbeg (e.g. Muzaka, Arianiti, Topia and smaller clans and groups). The last one may be true, I don't know the exact amount, but I think he did receive minimal financial aid from the Pope. Based on the fact that the paper calls Gjon Kastrioti a Serbo-Albanian warlord, the source shouldn't be used. Additionally, this isn't technically the Islamic/Ottoman view on anything - he was a Pole who converted to Islam during adulthood and was very religiously-biased in his work. ] (]) 04:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
With ] edit warred to restore following unreferenced assertions he added with his :
# in 1443 Skanderbeg succeeded his father ] as prince of the ].
# in 1468 Gjon II succeeded Skanderbeg as prince of the ]
# ] succeeded Skanderbeg as Chief of the ]


::Of course this source can't be used, since it has been decided that the article must be an albanian fiction. However, if you read Karl Hopf, which is a source in the article, citing John Musachi, you may see that Skanderbeg was ''''per natura Serviano'''" (born Serbian). (Karl Hopf, Reise durch die Gebiete des Drin und Wardar, 1867 p. 303, citing J.Musaki (who claimed that his is relative of Sk's family):
All above assertions are incorrect.
"''Perche in Albania era entrato Scanderbeg uomo valente e per natura Serviano''" . Have a nice day.
# Gjon died six years earlier, in 1437. Even before he died he was not ], at least not after 1430 when his realm ceased to exist when he was defeated by Isa beg. In 1430 Isa beg allowed Gjon to govern a couple of villages. In 1436 that territory was annexed by the Ottomans and listed in their registers as land of Yuvan-ili.
# There was no principality of Kastrioti Gjon could be prince of in 1468. After Skanderbeg's death Venetians continued to govern Kruje until Ottomans captured it.
# Leke Dukagjini was never Chief of the ] which actually collapsed in 1450 while Skanderbeg was still alive.


:::Have you actually read Gjon Muzaka’s work? I’m pretty certain it’s free to read online. ] (]) 07:27, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
] supported the above mentioned incorrect assertions with his explanation in edit line (). It is a thesis that Principality of Kastrioti was actually under Ottoman occupation after 1430 and that although Gjon died 6 years before Skanderbeg allegedly succeeded him as prince of Kastrioti in 1443, it was possible because Skanderbegs' brothers were alive in the meantime. I think that thesis about the occupation of the Principality of Kastrioti ruled by Skanderbeg's brothers ïs absurd and can not be used to support above mentioned incorrect assertions.
:::''Per natura Serviano'', means "of a Serbian nature", or "Serbian character, disposition" (he was very tall, as Giuseppe Valentini has shown). Please do not distort the sources, or give them a meaning they do not have. If someone wanted to write ''born Serbian'' he would had used ''nato Serviano'' instead; please refer to . ] (]) 00:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)


::I was searching for "Gjon" + "Muzaka" but it didn't find anything. Can you paste the link here, please? However, I found Marinus Barletius' book and he doesn't mention any "Albanian" Georgius Castriotus. It doesn't even say that he was born somewhere in Albania.--] (]) 16:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
--] (]) 23:28, 9 February 2013 (UTC)


::Jokes aside, the memoirs of Giovanni Musachi is here, published by K. Hopf. Starts from p. 270. The "natura Serviano" is in p. 334. . Of course it's free.
:@Antidiskriminator see the ], after the dearth of ] (Skanderbeg's father) his elder sons Reposh Kastrioti - duke then monk, Stanisha Kastrioti - († 1445?; father of Hamza) and Konstandin Kastrioti were alive. Irvi Hyka 18:15, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
::Skanderbeg did not succeed his father because his father was already dead for more than five years when Skanderbeg deserted Ottomans and captured Kruje. Skanderbeg's son did not succeed his father at all because he was forced to leave to Italy when Skanderbeg died.--] (]) 14:03, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


::: Here you go - https://books.google.com/books/about/Early_Albania.html?id=_sHmTRCEe7kC - nowhere does it say in John’s original work that which you put above. Not only is Karl Hopf outdated, but he is incorrect in what he is saying. ] (]) 23:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
== Skanderbeg as a theme in Albanian history textbooks ==
:::Karl Hopf has been accused of making a mess of his genealogies, or misreading documents, but I assure you he is not outdated. ] (]) 00:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
::::Karl Hopf’s work from '''1867''' is outdated when it comes to the ethnicity of Skanderbeg’s family. We have much more recent sources that clearly state his paternal side was purely Albanian. ] (]) 01:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::Karl Hopf published a documentary collection, called ''Chroniques gréco-romaines'', which as the name precisely states, is a collection of Greek-Roman chronicles; among these chronicles is the ''Breve Memoria'', or "Short Memoir" of Giovanni Musachi. Now, which part of Giovanni Musachi is outdated? I'm not sure if you are familiar with this work, of which you paste a link that shows what, precisely? ] (]) 17:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
::::::A link to the up-to-date translation in a book by a Robert Elsie. ] (]) 20:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|ShockedSkater}} Is this your first and only account? The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by ] and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle. ''Breve memoria'' is a medieval text which can be cited via reliable secondary sources, but not via Hopf.--] (]) 16:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Well it happens that the only edition we have is the one published by Hopf. Do you have any other reliable, secondary sources on the Breve Memoria, that can be cited via reliable sources, but not through Hopf? Because by publishing it, Hopf saved the Memoria; the original is lost, not to be found anywhere.
::::::::Not my first, I had an account years ago, got disinterested with the project. Can't remember for sure right now.
::::::::Do you have any sources that support the: "''The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by ] and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle''" statement ] (]) 16:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)


:Is anybody else enjoying that K. Hopf is good for the article to claim that Sk's mother was Albanian (page?), but not good to cite Musachi that Sk was Serbian? Properly interpreted, all this says that both of Sk's parents were Serbians, and therefore if Musachi was Voisava's relative, he was also Serbian, unless we find Musachi quoting that Sk's mother was "Albanian". After that we can ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanislav (Stanisha).--] (]) 21:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Denisa Kostovicova nicely summarized Skanderbeg as a theme in Albanian history textbooks in her work: ''Kosovo: The Politics of Identity and Space Аутор: Dr Denisa Kostovicova''():
::Please tell me what "di natura Serviano" means, by "nature a Serbian", or by character, a Serbian, or by disposition, a Serbian, or he looked like Bosnians. If it read "di origine Serviano", "nato Serviano" that would be OK. That would mean he was born a Serb. Vojsava is Albanian because the link with her sister Agnese, the mother of ''Andrea Angeli'' is attested in other sources, that say the Angeli were nephews of Skanderbeg on his maternal side (Girolamo Angeli, or Paolo Angeli, Skanderbeg's trusted counselor and diplomat). Now, the Angeli are most definitely not Serbian, or having to do with the Brankovitch, they're Drivastine Catholics (from Drisht). It's either this, or that; you cannot possibly be Serbian on another side, beside your mother and father. Please see on the meaning of "natura" in Italian. For example: Forsi voi credete, o donna, che io consumato da molti anni, & ''per natura rozo'' - From: Michelangelo Biondo: "Angitia cortigiana" (Maybe you believe, o woman, that I, consumed from many years now, ''rough by nature''...). If you ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanisha (sic!) and not Stanislav, I might accidentally add they were Pravoslav Orthodox in the beginning, then his father took the name Hamza (Amesa in Latin sources, Pope Pius). They were not Slavs, they were Pravoslavs of the Slavonic rite, the difference between which I'm sure you know and appreciate. ] (]) 22:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)


:::Wow, this is some science! So, Vojsava had not a sister called Mara Brankovich? And according to your "scientific" method, if Serbiano means Orthodox, all the supposed to be "Albanians" are so in what sense?
*... ''in Albanian history textboks... Not only were Albanian-inhabitated territories in the medieval Balkans retroactively nationalized, Skanderbeg himself at the time of his military undertaking is cast as a national hero. Hence, the notions of nation and nationhood were imported into the era that preceded their conceptualization.... Importantly, Skanderbeg's state is regarded as the Albanian state, which 'created important tradition of the Albanians' state life, that remained alive in the Albanians' memory and that was propagated in the subsequent centuries'. Again, the textbooks operated retroactively with a notion of nationally defined statehood.''


::Or the Brankovich incident, when the Serbs blocked Skanderbeg the way so he did not join Hunyadi, because '''Brankovitch didn't want to mess up his good relations with the Turks'''. No mention is made of this fantastic origin from the Brankovich, for example, "Skanderbeg, who was related to Brankovich by way of his mother, told him etc. etc.". There are no hints whatsoever. The Brankovich origin is kind of ridiculous, Ivan Kastrioti's father '''owned only 2 villages''' in Dibra. If you were a Brankovich, that pretty much owned all Kosovo - a large swathe of the Balkans, would you give your daughter in marriage to a guy whose father Paul had only 2 villages? ] (]) 22:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
This is important aspect of Skanderbeg which should be added to the text of this article, along with some basic information about the myth which nationalists created using his figure.--] (]) 21:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
::Adding an inaccurate and incorrect source from the 19th century is against ] and ]. It’s not even the Turkish/Islamic view, which is what you discussed in the initial comment on this thread. ] (]) 23:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
:::What source are you talking about? ] (]) 01:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Hopf's source. My comment was directed towards Skylax. ] (]) 02:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
::::{{ping|ShockedSkater}} Read Noli (1968) for details about the issue. The statement "natura Serviano" doesn't come from Gjon Muzaka, but from Spandounes.--] (]) 22:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::I think Spandounes/Spandugino wrote "natione Serviano". ] (]) 11:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)


Kosovo as an example is a Slavic name, all cities and landscapes, rivers and mountains in Kosovo have Slavic names - the Albanians have simply adopted these Slavic names and pronounce them Albanian. They don't even have their own names in Kosovo, let alone history and culture - yet they aggressively deny anything Slavic and Serbian in Kosovo today and claim that they have always been in Kosovo and have always been the majority of the population there - and don't even have their own names for the country. But Washington has decided on the project of an Albanian nation in Kosovo, which is why the memory of everything non-Albanian in Kosovo must be erased. It's easy to deal with foreign countries and cultures, it is not the own home.
== Kastrioti adored as national hero by mohammedan albanians, although he fought mohammedan turks?! ==


The same applies to the Albanian national hero Skenderbeg, who was more Serb than Albanian by descent. His mother ] was Serbian, or at least Slavic (Bulgarian or Macedonian Slavic), and on his father's side the Serbian/Slavic proportion was also high. His father ] and his brother Reposh (sr. Repoš) were buried in the Serbian Orthodox monastery of Hilandar on the monastic republic of Athos. The most important monasteries there are and were Greek or Byzantine, but he wanted the Serbian monastery. Apparently his father Gjon identified himself with Serbs, and his mother was Serb/Slavic anyway. Their children, Skanderbeg's siblings, all have Serbian names. And all their children were given Serbian names, Skenderbeg alone was called Gjergj in Albanian. It's strange, not..? Or was Skednerbeg actually given the Serbian name Đurđ (dʑurdʑ) or Đurađ (dʑuradʑ), which became the Albanian Gjergj?
'Skanderbeg is Albania's most important national hero': Can someone explain why this is the case? Kastrioti fought against the turks and islam, still (because he ultimately lost) the majority of albanians are mohammedans today, because the turks forced them to convert. Sounds all a bit fuzzy if we apply normal logic, no? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:04, 30 June 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Good point. This really should be clarified. Thanks.--] (]) 18:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
::Usually Albanians do not put much importance to religions, they are more sympathetic towards the country and the nation. We can see this is the case from ] poem ] where he expresses this concept with the following words: "''Awake, Albania, it’s time to rise And bind yourselves with brotherly ties; Look not to church or mosque for pietism, The faith of Albanians is Albanianism!''". Albania is a country with multiple faith systems but the population are surprisingly secular, might be a benefit from Hoxha's regime. —'''''] <sup>]'''''</sup> 18:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Thank you for your explanation.
:::# Albanian indifference to religion is a myth.
:::# If Albanians are really indifferent to religion, why would they celebrate Skanderbeg's struggle against mohammedans?--] (]) 21:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
::::You're welcome. I wouldn't say it's a myth and I'm not saying that if you are Albanian then somehow automatically you possess secular values, I would however say that indifference towards religion is certainly widespread, in the cities at the very least. They celebrate Skanderbeg's struggle against the Ottomans as a struggle for Albanian unity as a nation, not a struggle for the Christian collection of beliefs. Of course there are some Muslim Albanians who view Skanderbeg as a "villain" and there are some Christian Albanians who view him as a crusader or a holy knight or some such, usually these Albanians tend to be followers of a more extreme form of their religion.—'''''] <sup>]'''''</sup> 14:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::Thanks. Your comment probably can partially resolve this issue. Will you please present some sources which support your assertion about Skanderbeg struggling for ''"Albanian unity as a nation"'' and Albanians celebrating him because of that?--] (]) 16:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


Why is this such a nuisance for the Albanians, why can't they stand it and consider it the greatest national insult when Skenderbeg's Serbian or Slavic ancestry is mentioned in even the slightest way? Isn't that very racist? If we change Serb to Jew, what would we say? But they are Albanians, they are tolerated because the Albanian Kosovo project is to be realized.] (]) 23:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
== The Siege of Kruje ==


:His earliest recorded ancestor was Kostandin Kastriot Mazreku, given by Muzaka. PLEASE tell me what in the world Mazrek could mean in Serbian. They were buried in a Serbian Orthodox church, because an Albanian autocephalous church did not exist at the time. They had Serb names because obviously, the Serbian church baptized them. Why is the tower in which Gjon Kastrioti buried called "Arbanski Pirg"? Or will you leave such details and logic out, because you want to seem like you have a hidden history, buried under Albanian "propaganda". It's all just very humorous, considering the fact that your ethnicity would never even dare claim Skanderbeg up until a few years ago, because he was the hero of your worst enemy. It's all laughable. ] (]) 00:37, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
Regarding the below sentences:
:His father was originally Catholic as well. Go figure. For sure an Orthodox Serb, very proud of his ethnicity and nationality. The most powerful rulers around him were Serb lords. Obviously he would switch faiths for an alliance. You make it seem as if he was a nationalist, identifying with Serbia when his son campaigned into Serbia and feuded with the Brankovic ruler, who according to you all is from the same family as his mother. So according to your logic, a Catholic father, located in Albania, who gathered a mostly ethnic Albanian army and alliance around him, goes and invades his "Serb" mother's supposed relative, and is still a Serb. At this point it's become a literal joke. ] (]) 00:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)


The Albanians do not consider it a national insult because first of all the argument presented is ridiculous and laughable. In addition, the Albanian people are the most hospitable, generous, tolerant, and peace loving people in the entire Europe. Serbia sees that as a weakness and always attacks Albanians. Those are the reasons. ] (]) 01:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
"He lost all of his possessions except Krujë. The other nobles from the region of Albania allied with Murad II as he came to save them from the oppression."


This is not the place to share Serb grievances. The article is about the Albanian hero Skanderbeg not about Serb grievances regarding what happened in Dardania 250 years ago, and please cite sources. Not a single source is cited. The names and people in Dardania 250 years ago might have been Slavonic, but today the people and the names in Dardania are 92.9% Albanians and deserve to live in peace and have their rights respected similar to every other European people. Speaking of Washington, the Serb police and military during the Dardania war of 1999 was among the most brutal in the entire history of mankind. In addition, Albanians have always wanted to live in peace and have accepted hundreds and thousands of concessions to make peace, but Serbs have never respected the deals because Serbs are not interested in peace but in wars. ] (]) 00:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
There are several incorrect statements:
1. There is no evidence whatsoever that Skanderbeg lost his possessions after the Siege of Kruje. He lost control over part of them during the siege, but naturally after the Murad retreat, the pre-war situation was restored as Skanderbeg didn't lose any castle. You can rely on sources like Babinger, Frasheri, etc. regarding this. Also, this makes sense as immediately the next year he defeated another Ottoman expedition in the frontier (not near Kruje).
2. There is no evidence whatsoever that nobles allied with Murad II. Some of them (Dukagjini) stayed apart, but no one joined sultan or the action against Skanderbeg. However, the nobles' help was minimal this time, even from Gjergj Arianiti.
3. It is for sure that Murad II wasn't coming to save nobles from Skanderbeg's oppression. Most of them had already lost their territories when Skanderbeg began the revolt and regained them through him. They knew that Murad's intentions was the total subjugation of Albania. Even the treacheries of the next years, were mainly from his own relatives (despaired after his son's birth for lack of succession), not from the nobles. The most they did to protest, was being neutral or connecting with Venice and Alfonso. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: The assertions you dispute are supported by work of ] for which he received the ] of the ].
:# ''"He had lost all of his country except Kroia"''
:# ''"The independent Albanian highlanders ... had made accords with Murad"''. Even Frasheri confirms this ({{Citation |last=Frashëri |first=Kristo |title=The history of Albania: a brief survey |url=http://books.google.rs/books?ei=BBEdT8PrIM-wtAbt3pBI&id=kMxBAAAAYAAJ&dq=1456+dukagjin&q=%22not+only+did+not%22#search_anchor |archiveurl=|archivedate=|format=|accessdate=23 January 2012 |year=1964 |month=|publisher=Tirana |location=Shqipëria |oclc=230172517 |page=78 |quote=In 1450 two powerful aristocratic families, Arianits and Dukagjins, left the league.... Skanderbeg tried to keep them near him. But his efforts failed. The Dukagjins not only did not accede, but on the contrary, concluded peace with Sultan and began to plot against Skanderbeg. }})
:# ''" as though he was their deliverer from the oppression. "''--] (]) 10:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
::Btw just because the main editors of the article are vacationing don't expect to add POV issues that neither belong to the lead nor are mentioned by other sources.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span>&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 11:05, 16 August 2013 (UTC)


== Is There Evidence that Skanderbeg's Correspondences Were in Greek? ==
== Albanian resistance ==


There is evidence that Skanderbeg, the national hero of Albania, sent and received his correspondences in Greek. Skanderbeg wrote letters to the Sultan and rulers of the West in Greek.
The major portion of this article is under "Albanian resistance" section. It frequently mentions "Albanian armies", "Albanian insurrection", "Albanian garrison", "Albanian troops", "Albanian territories", "Albanian noblemen", "Albanian forces", ... which all could mislead readers to believe that this was a struggle between Albanians (used as ] or ethnicity) and Ottoman Empire. In prevent misleading of readers I added important clarification which is referenced by contemporary historian who is member of the Austrian Academy of Sciences and author of the best biography on Skanderbeg. Since this addition was removed without valid reason I will restore it to the article. --] (]) 09:28, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
] (]) 23:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
:We've been through this before. See talk page history on that ]. The same terms are used by ] who was for eg , etc. Your add is on WP:COATRACK territory. If you want to speak about the population in medieval Albania go ahead and make an article on that. That does not belong here.
P.S. Not so related but after the death of Scanderbeg many people ]. Guess what ] (]) 08:40, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


== If there is no evidence on Voisava Kastrioti being a part of the Branković family, why is it still written on this article? ==
== After 1463.... ==


Is it okay if I remove it? ] (]) 21:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
the lede present information about post-1463 events.


== Serbian sources of this article mention Skanderbeg as Serbian ==
* ''"Left alone to fight the Ottomans, Skanderbeg did so until he died in January 1468"''


Why are the sources used in this article in contradiction with each other? Why do they cite Skanderbeg as a Serbian while the article mentions him as Albanian? ] (]) 12:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
This is incorrect. Skanderbeg was far from left alone. In period 1463—1468 he was only one of participants of the ]. I will correct the above sentence to match the text of the article.--] (]) 21:24, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

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? view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Was Skanderbeg Albanian? A1: Yes, Skanderbeg was an Albanian feudal lord from the Albanian House of Kastrioti. Q2: What language did they speak in Albania during Skanderbeg's lifetime? A2: Skanderbeg's native language was Albanian. In the Balkans Italian, Greek, Vlach, Latin, South Slavic languages and Ottoman Turkish were also common during Skanderbeg's lifetime. Q3: What was the background of Skanderbeg's mother? A3: Primary sources refer to her as being from Polog, most likely being the Polog valley in modern day North Macedonia. It has also been argued that another Polog, closer to the town of Bitola in the plain of Pelagonia may be the location of the Polog mentioned by Barleti. There is debate among different scholars of whether Skanderbeg's mother was related to the Muzaka family, most likely of Albanian descent, or of the Serb Branković dynasty, or of an unknown Bulgarian family. There is, however, no mention of Voisava on the Branković dynasty family tree. Q4: Was Skanderbeg a Roman Catholic? A4: Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was a Roman Catholic in the period from 1444 to his death in 1468. In the period prior to 1444, he had converted to Islam. The exact date of his conversion is unclear but it must have been between 1426 and 1431. His father, Gjon Kastrioti changed his religion several times (Roman Catholic/Christian Orthodox/Muslim). Q5: What was Skanderbeg's real name and who were his parents? A5: His real name was Gjergj Kastrioti, Gjergj is the Albanian version of the name George. His father was Gjon Kastrioti and his mother's name was Voisava Kastrioti
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The islamic view

The article is almost exclusively presenting the western-albanian view on the subject. However, there is a good volume of islamic/ottoman historiography on Sk., claiming that the western is "propaganda". Of course the islamic historiography can also be characterized as "propaganda", but the spirit of WP is to present all views, so as to produce the famous "neutral p.o.v.". Would it be proper to open a section presenting the islamic (or pro-Ottoman / Turkish) point of view? Skylax30 (talk) 19:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Your point being? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

KOPAŃSKI, A. B. (1997). ISLAMIZATION OF ALBANIANS IN THE MIDDLE AGES: THE PRIMARY SOURCES AND THE PREDICAMENT OF THE MODERN HISTORIOGRAPHY. Islamic Studies, 36(2/3), 191–208. http://www.jstor.org/stable/23076194

  • Ivan Kastrioti, serbo-albanian war lord (p. 195).
  • The clans of southern and central Albanians refused to join Skanderbeg.
  • Kastrioti and others received every year 1.400 golden ducats from the Pope.
WP:FRINGE on the first two. Gjon Kastrioti was most definitely not Serbo-Albanian, and some of the southern and central clans did indeed join Skanderbeg (e.g. Muzaka, Arianiti, Topia and smaller clans and groups). The last one may be true, I don't know the exact amount, but I think he did receive minimal financial aid from the Pope. Based on the fact that the paper calls Gjon Kastrioti a Serbo-Albanian warlord, the source shouldn't be used. Additionally, this isn't technically the Islamic/Ottoman view on anything - he was a Pole who converted to Islam during adulthood and was very religiously-biased in his work. Botushali (talk) 04:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Of course this source can't be used, since it has been decided that the article must be an albanian fiction. However, if you read Karl Hopf, which is a source in the article, citing John Musachi, you may see that Skanderbeg was 'per natura Serviano" (born Serbian). (Karl Hopf, Reise durch die Gebiete des Drin und Wardar, 1867 p. 303, citing J.Musaki (who claimed that his is relative of Sk's family):

"Perche in Albania era entrato Scanderbeg uomo valente e per natura Serviano" . Have a nice day.

Have you actually read Gjon Muzaka’s work? I’m pretty certain it’s free to read online. Botushali (talk) 07:27, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
Per natura Serviano, means "of a Serbian nature", or "Serbian character, disposition" (he was very tall, as Giuseppe Valentini has shown). Please do not distort the sources, or give them a meaning they do not have. If someone wanted to write born Serbian he would had used nato Serviano instead; please refer to . ShockedSkater (talk) 00:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
I was searching for "Gjon" + "Muzaka" but it didn't find anything. Can you paste the link here, please? However, I found Marinus Barletius' book and he doesn't mention any "Albanian" Georgius Castriotus. It doesn't even say that he was born somewhere in Albania.--Skylax30 (talk) 16:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Jokes aside, the memoirs of Giovanni Musachi is here, published by K. Hopf. Starts from p. 270. The "natura Serviano" is in p. 334. . Of course it's free.
Here you go - https://books.google.com/books/about/Early_Albania.html?id=_sHmTRCEe7kC - nowhere does it say in John’s original work that which you put above. Not only is Karl Hopf outdated, but he is incorrect in what he is saying. Botushali (talk) 23:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Karl Hopf has been accused of making a mess of his genealogies, or misreading documents, but I assure you he is not outdated. ShockedSkater (talk) 00:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Karl Hopf’s work from 1867 is outdated when it comes to the ethnicity of Skanderbeg’s family. We have much more recent sources that clearly state his paternal side was purely Albanian. Botushali (talk) 01:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Karl Hopf published a documentary collection, called Chroniques gréco-romaines, which as the name precisely states, is a collection of Greek-Roman chronicles; among these chronicles is the Breve Memoria, or "Short Memoir" of Giovanni Musachi. Now, which part of Giovanni Musachi is outdated? I'm not sure if you are familiar with this work, of which you paste a link that shows what, precisely? ShockedSkater (talk) 17:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
A link to the up-to-date translation in a book by a Robert Elsie. Botushali (talk) 20:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
@ShockedSkater: Is this your first and only account? The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by Theodore Spandounes and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle. Breve memoria is a medieval text which can be cited via reliable secondary sources, but not via Hopf.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Well it happens that the only edition we have is the one published by Hopf. Do you have any other reliable, secondary sources on the Breve Memoria, that can be cited via reliable sources, but not through Hopf? Because by publishing it, Hopf saved the Memoria; the original is lost, not to be found anywhere.
Not my first, I had an account years ago, got disinterested with the project. Can't remember for sure right now.
Do you have any sources that support the: "The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by Theodore Spandounes and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle" statement ShockedSkater (talk) 16:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Is anybody else enjoying that K. Hopf is good for the article to claim that Sk's mother was Albanian (page?), but not good to cite Musachi that Sk was Serbian? Properly interpreted, all this says that both of Sk's parents were Serbians, and therefore if Musachi was Voisava's relative, he was also Serbian, unless we find Musachi quoting that Sk's mother was "Albanian". After that we can ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanislav (Stanisha).--Skylax30 (talk) 21:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Please tell me what "di natura Serviano" means, by "nature a Serbian", or by character, a Serbian, or by disposition, a Serbian, or he looked like Bosnians. If it read "di origine Serviano", "nato Serviano" that would be OK. That would mean he was born a Serb. Vojsava is Albanian because the link with her sister Agnese, the mother of Andrea Angeli is attested in other sources, that say the Angeli were nephews of Skanderbeg on his maternal side (Girolamo Angeli, or Paolo Angeli, Skanderbeg's trusted counselor and diplomat). Now, the Angeli are most definitely not Serbian, or having to do with the Brankovitch, they're Drivastine Catholics (from Drisht). It's either this, or that; you cannot possibly be Serbian on another side, beside your mother and father. Please see on the meaning of "natura" in Italian. For example: Forsi voi credete, o donna, che io consumato da molti anni, & per natura rozo - From: Michelangelo Biondo: "Angitia cortigiana" (Maybe you believe, o woman, that I, consumed from many years now, rough by nature...). If you ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanisha (sic!) and not Stanislav, I might accidentally add they were Pravoslav Orthodox in the beginning, then his father took the name Hamza (Amesa in Latin sources, Pope Pius). They were not Slavs, they were Pravoslavs of the Slavonic rite, the difference between which I'm sure you know and appreciate. ShockedSkater (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Wow, this is some science! So, Vojsava had not a sister called Mara Brankovich? And according to your "scientific" method, if Serbiano means Orthodox, all the supposed to be "Albanians" are so in what sense?
Or the Brankovich incident, when the Serbs blocked Skanderbeg the way so he did not join Hunyadi, because Brankovitch didn't want to mess up his good relations with the Turks. No mention is made of this fantastic origin from the Brankovich, for example, "Skanderbeg, who was related to Brankovich by way of his mother, told him etc. etc.". There are no hints whatsoever. The Brankovich origin is kind of ridiculous, Ivan Kastrioti's father owned only 2 villages in Dibra. If you were a Brankovich, that pretty much owned all Kosovo - a large swathe of the Balkans, would you give your daughter in marriage to a guy whose father Paul had only 2 villages? ShockedSkater (talk) 22:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Adding an inaccurate and incorrect source from the 19th century is against WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:FRINGE. It’s not even the Turkish/Islamic view, which is what you discussed in the initial comment on this thread. Botushali (talk) 23:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
What source are you talking about? ShockedSkater (talk) 01:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Hopf's source. My comment was directed towards Skylax. Botushali (talk) 02:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
@ShockedSkater: Read Noli (1968) for details about the issue. The statement "natura Serviano" doesn't come from Gjon Muzaka, but from Spandounes.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
I think Spandounes/Spandugino wrote "natione Serviano". ShockedSkater (talk) 11:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Kosovo as an example is a Slavic name, all cities and landscapes, rivers and mountains in Kosovo have Slavic names - the Albanians have simply adopted these Slavic names and pronounce them Albanian. They don't even have their own names in Kosovo, let alone history and culture - yet they aggressively deny anything Slavic and Serbian in Kosovo today and claim that they have always been in Kosovo and have always been the majority of the population there - and don't even have their own names for the country. But Washington has decided on the project of an Albanian nation in Kosovo, which is why the memory of everything non-Albanian in Kosovo must be erased. It's easy to deal with foreign countries and cultures, it is not the own home.

The same applies to the Albanian national hero Skenderbeg, who was more Serb than Albanian by descent. His mother Voisava Kastrioti was Serbian, or at least Slavic (Bulgarian or Macedonian Slavic), and on his father's side the Serbian/Slavic proportion was also high. His father Gjon Kastrioti and his brother Reposh (sr. Repoš) were buried in the Serbian Orthodox monastery of Hilandar on the monastic republic of Athos. The most important monasteries there are and were Greek or Byzantine, but he wanted the Serbian monastery. Apparently his father Gjon identified himself with Serbs, and his mother was Serb/Slavic anyway. Their children, Skanderbeg's siblings, all have Serbian names. And all their children were given Serbian names, Skenderbeg alone was called Gjergj in Albanian. It's strange, not..? Or was Skednerbeg actually given the Serbian name Đurđ (dʑurdʑ) or Đurađ (dʑuradʑ), which became the Albanian Gjergj?

Why is this such a nuisance for the Albanians, why can't they stand it and consider it the greatest national insult when Skenderbeg's Serbian or Slavic ancestry is mentioned in even the slightest way? Isn't that very racist? If we change Serb to Jew, what would we say? But they are Albanians, they are tolerated because the Albanian Kosovo project is to be realized.Carski (talk) 23:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

His earliest recorded ancestor was Kostandin Kastriot Mazreku, given by Muzaka. PLEASE tell me what in the world Mazrek could mean in Serbian. They were buried in a Serbian Orthodox church, because an Albanian autocephalous church did not exist at the time. They had Serb names because obviously, the Serbian church baptized them. Why is the tower in which Gjon Kastrioti buried called "Arbanski Pirg"? Or will you leave such details and logic out, because you want to seem like you have a hidden history, buried under Albanian "propaganda". It's all just very humorous, considering the fact that your ethnicity would never even dare claim Skanderbeg up until a few years ago, because he was the hero of your worst enemy. It's all laughable. 141.98.141.192 (talk) 00:37, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
His father was originally Catholic as well. Go figure. For sure an Orthodox Serb, very proud of his ethnicity and nationality. The most powerful rulers around him were Serb lords. Obviously he would switch faiths for an alliance. You make it seem as if he was a nationalist, identifying with Serbia when his son campaigned into Serbia and feuded with the Brankovic ruler, who according to you all is from the same family as his mother. So according to your logic, a Catholic father, located in Albania, who gathered a mostly ethnic Albanian army and alliance around him, goes and invades his "Serb" mother's supposed relative, and is still a Serb. At this point it's become a literal joke. 141.98.141.192 (talk) 00:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The Albanians do not consider it a national insult because first of all the argument presented is ridiculous and laughable. In addition, the Albanian people are the most hospitable, generous, tolerant, and peace loving people in the entire Europe. Serbia sees that as a weakness and always attacks Albanians. Those are the reasons. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:D125:2D1:9542:CB94 (talk) 01:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

This is not the place to share Serb grievances. The article is about the Albanian hero Skanderbeg not about Serb grievances regarding what happened in Dardania 250 years ago, and please cite sources. Not a single source is cited. The names and people in Dardania 250 years ago might have been Slavonic, but today the people and the names in Dardania are 92.9% Albanians and deserve to live in peace and have their rights respected similar to every other European people. Speaking of Washington, the Serb police and military during the Dardania war of 1999 was among the most brutal in the entire history of mankind. In addition, Albanians have always wanted to live in peace and have accepted hundreds and thousands of concessions to make peace, but Serbs have never respected the deals because Serbs are not interested in peace but in wars. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:6493:D35:2CE8:6F77 (talk) 00:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Is There Evidence that Skanderbeg's Correspondences Were in Greek?

There is evidence that Skanderbeg, the national hero of Albania, sent and received his correspondences in Greek. Skanderbeg wrote letters to the Sultan and rulers of the West in Greek. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:6493:D35:2CE8:6F77 (talk) 23:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

If there is no evidence on Voisava Kastrioti being a part of the Branković family, why is it still written on this article?

Is it okay if I remove it? Triballiii (talk) 21:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Serbian sources of this article mention Skanderbeg as Serbian

Why are the sources used in this article in contradiction with each other? Why do they cite Skanderbeg as a Serbian while the article mentions him as Albanian? 93.86.237.151 (talk) 12:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

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