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	==Cost of a Manned Mission?==
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	Is there any reliable information about the cost of a manned mission to mars? I think it would be useful to include in the article.
			* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Effect of dust storms) has been ] before. <!-- {"title":"Effect of dust storms","appear":{"revid":109373373,"parentid":109370543,"timestamp":"2007-02-19T20:12:27Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":902278655,"parentid":902275815,"timestamp":"2019-06-17T19:20:55Z","replaced_anchors":{"Atmospheric Electricity":"Atmospheric electricity"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} -->

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	For anyone who digs this up, two ideas would be:
	* NASA has made proposals for MARS missions; those should be included
	* The Mars Society has an FAQ entry about it, stating:
	<blockquote>
	Q: How much will sending humans to Mars cost?
	A: Estimates of the cost of a human Mars exploration program over the years have been wildly disparate, leaving much confusion in their wake. On the high end of the scale was the Space Exploration Initiative proposed by President George H. W. Bush in 1989 at $450 billion; Mars Direct occupies the low end of the scale at roughly $30 billion.
	- http://www.marssociety.org/portal/c/faq
	</blockquote>
	-] 12:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

	:Direct was rejected by NASA; "Semi-Direct" weighs in at US$55 billion. ] 16:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


	==Colonization v. Colonisation v. Settlement==
	I know many are already aware that both "colonization" and "colonisation" are valid ways of spelling the word. Nevertheless, I thought it would be nice to make a note of it here since I noticed some people changing things to reflect one particular spelling. This may be done for the sake of consistency, but, in that case, it should be noted that the wikipedia article for the term is listed under ]. --]

	Consideration ought to be given to retitling this entry "Settlement of Mars" rather than coloniz/sation, given the negative connotations the word "colonization" engenders in political discussion. Inevitably -- amazingly -- such diversionary concerns arise when discussing Martian settlement. ] (]) 21:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

	*The words mean different things. A colony is a type of settlement. The Concise OED says that a colony is:"a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country, typically a distant one, and occupied by settlers from that country" whereas a settlement is merely: "a place, typically one that has hitherto been uninhabited, where people establish a community". Clearly a settlement on Mars would for very many years have to be a colony, relying on and controlled by the Earth. ] (]) 01:17, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

	**"Settlement" is used by the space activist community to avoid historic negative connotations associated with the word "colony". This is terminology is becoming the norm. Such organizations as the National Space Society, the Space Frontier Foundation, the Mars Society, and so on, actively discourage use of the word "colony" at their conferences, it being considered tone deaf and counter-productive. It is a disservice to the potential space development offers humanity to continue to use that word in the title of this article. Early initial human landing vehicles - commonly referred to as tuna can habs - would be gathered together to form "research settlements" as the earliest permanent human presence on Mars. This article's title should be changed as soon as possible. ] (]) 23:18, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

	** Ericmachmer, I second your comments. "Settlement of Mars" is, for many reasons, a superior title. ] (]) 15:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

	== terraforming ==

	The possibility of terraforming plays a great part all over the article. However, I'm in doubt about its feasibility. For one thing I believe it takes too long to wait for the results, and nobody is willing to invest a dollar into something that possibly (!) returns in some hundred or may be thousand years. For another, there is good reason Mars having such a thin atmosphere today. The long term stability of a terraformed environment is pretty unlikely. All this about the terraforming thing seems to be ''science fiction'', while the colonization is not. So, how about reducing the idea of terraforming to a small paragraph with a link to the main article ]? The whole article would be more believable if it concentrates strictly on technology that is in reach of men. -- ] (]) 08:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

	:I disagree. Terraforming is not only possible, it necessarily happen even if we don't try to. Living things conform to their surroundings, and in turn they make their surroundings conform to them. If you add plants, they change the environment by changing CO2 to O2. Animals add methane and renewed CO2 to the atmosphere. Just our presence on mars over a long enough time will change the composition of the planet. It is only in its present stable state because there are no living things to change it; it is in its own chemical equilibrium.

	:Furthermore, terraforming is necessary if colonists plan on having an ecosystem. While it is possible for a colony to survive on artificial processes and shelters and such, the chances of success are significantly increased on a terraformed mars with abundant plant life and an existing biosphere. I think terraforming and colonisation go hand in hand; even if we take measures to ''not'' terraform, Mars will inevitably be terraformed in some way by our presense.--] (]) 12:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

	Yes, our presence will change the Martian environment, there is no doubt about it. I would not call this unintentional influence ''terraforming'', because it surely does not aim to make Mars resemble ''Terra''. Neither I would expect the unintentional changes to leed even into this direction. No, our presence will not ''terraform'' Mars. Probably, our presence will ''dirtyform'' it.

	Still this is not what I meant. The article describes intentional terraforming. Sure, it is much easier to live on a terraformed Mars, but yet it is not possible with our current knowledge and technology. There are ideas, but nobody knows about the viability. It's too premature. I find it nice to have that article ]. It is a good article, and I definitely want to keep it, even grow it bigger, concentrate all available info in it. However, the article ] points to a more realistic scenario. It describes many ideas to colonize the planet without the need for terraforming, which is possible with known technology. I wouldn't want to describe terraforming here as inevitable, which is not at all. I find terraforming too fantastic, and my impression is that it makes the article somehow fantastic, too. I'd rather want the article be realistic. -- ] (]) 14:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
	:Actually the initial stages of terraforming (getting to a 1-bar atmosphere, for example) is relatively simple engineering wise, and can certainly be achieved with present-day technology. Since mars currently has very few greenhouse gases, the warming effect of adding some will be much greater than we see on earth, due to the fact that Earth already has so much GHG. The warming relationship is logarithmic, not linear. So significant warming (and subsequent thickening of the atmosphere) could be achieved within only a century or so. Getting it to be as nice as Earth, of course, is going to take much longer, but hey, who knows what technologies we will invent by then?--] (]) 11:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
	::Are there any extremophiles which could survive the martian environment as it is, and yet also change it as they go along? sling a few at the planet, let them grow like rabbits in Australia, profit! ] (]) 16:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

	Sorry for being rude. And offensive for that matter... first of all the green house gases: Mars has a lots of it. atmosphere consists of >95% CO2. and there is frozen CO2 all over the planet... thats just not the reason why the atmosphere is so thin.

	there are mainly two reasons:

	1. mars is too small to keep a dense atmosphere. just not enough gravity to keep it.

	2. no magnetic field. the charged particles from the sun (sun wind) just "blow" away the atmosphere.

	We can think about a solution for (2), like building a superconductor coil around the equator. But because of (1) this wont help in the long run...
	terraforming mars is a nice dream. but as long as we dont invent a seriously new kind physics, it will be a dream..

	Anyway i think it is good to mention the historical ideas about terraforming, just please also mention that it is just nowhere close to be imaginable for someone who studied physics.

	] (]) 17:17, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

	CAN MARS KEEP AN ATMOSPHERE?
	<P>Mars surface gravity is high enough to keep all gases except Hydrogen, Helium and Water. Further, water stays in the troposphere, (because of the cold trap), and is not normally lost to thermal escape. Mars HAS lost about 15 meters of water globally, but most of this was from UV light disassociating water into hydrogen and oxygen, with the hydrogen being quickly lost. If Mars was to have an oxygen atmosphere (and an ozone layer), it would keep its water for billions of years. In fact, even with out an oxygen atmosphere, Mars has kept its water for billions of years. Plenty of water is in its ice caps and as permafrost. It has not lost all of its water from thermal escape or any other method.</P>
	<P>Scientists have shown that worlds with no magnetic field lose tiny amounts of air from solar wind erosion. This adds up over billions of years. However, it is not something that terraformers have to worry about over hundred of millions of year time scales. (100 million years is far longer than the lifetime of our species.)</P>
	<P>Venus has no magnetic field and a solar flux more than 5 times what Mars has but it has not lost its atmosphere. Mercury has quite a strong magnetic field and basically has no atmosphere. The meme that no magnetic field = no atmosphere is far too simplistic. Venus is an obvious disproof of this idea.</P>
	<P> Scientists think Mars had a 3 or 4 bar atmosphere early in its life and estimate that about 75% to 80% of this was lost to the solar wind. (The solar wind was ~100 times stronger at the start of the solar system and ~6 times stronger ~2.5 billion years ago.) Since it now has an atmosphere of 1/100th of a bar, where is its air?</P>
	<P>In the soil. Lightning and UV radiation will form nitrates. On Earth these are recycled quickly by life. But in some regions like the Gobi desert, the nitrate beds are very deep. (Dozens of meters deep if I remember correctly, don't quote me.) On Mars, most of the nitrogen was not lost, it has been deposited in the soil. Oxygen is too heavy for thermal escape, but will react with rocks or with salts to form perchlorates. Carbon dioxide will form carbonate rocks, be absorbed into CO2 clathrates, and be dissolved in ground water and form ice caps. Further, clays which are common on Mars will absorb carbon dioxide when they get cold, typically 4 to 6% by mass. Most of Mars' atmosphere is in its soils and rocks.</P>
	<P>If terraformers brought Mars atmosphere up to 1 bar pressure by dropping comets onto the planet, it would take 2 to 3 billion years of solar wind sputtering to reduce its air pressure to the point where humans still would NOT need a pressure suit. (Tho the pressure would be too low for humans to breath.) (This assumes that the Sun's solar wind continues to decline or at least stays the same.) Claiming that we can't live on a Terraformed Mars because the solar wind will erode the atmosphere in 2.5 billion years when the Earth's biosphere won't survive 800 million years (because the sun is warming) is silly. Let's focus on the next two hundred to 200,000,000 years and let someone else worry about the time after that.</P>
	<P> I'll track down more references for these statements later. Out of time.</P>
	<P>http://people.virginia.edu/~rej/papers03/Leblanc01.pdf</P>
	<P>"Life and Death of Planet Earth, The: How The New Science Of Astrobiology Charts The Ultimate Fate" by Peter D Ward & Don Brownlee. // They show multicellar life likely won't last 1/2 a billion years on Earth as the sun warms.</P>
	<P>http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast121/lectures/lec14.html</P>
	<P>http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v272/n5656/pdf/272803a0.pdf</P>
	<P>http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1980LPSC...11.2479W</P>
	<P>"Mars: A Warmer Wetter Planet" by Jeffrey S. Kargel // Discussed MEGAOUTFLO events in the past when the atmosphere in the soil out gases. Also talks about the 3 to 4 bar early Martian atmosphere & the martian water budget.</P>
	<P>Warm regards, Rick. ] (]) 15:51, 27 May 2011 (UTC)</P>

	:Terraforming Mars is technically easy. The fact that an atmosphere will blow away is unlikely to make any difference, given the timescale. The long-term effects of Earths current terraforming are of no consequence to policymakers. I can't see why reason should prevail there any more than here. The reasons for which it would eventually be carried out are going to outweigh all such concerns. Going to the moon had nothing to do with science whatsoever. Nothing to do with frontiers, it may appear more of a juvenile political statement if you listen to the entire 'not because it is easy but because it is hard' speech. Using a supermagnet to create a magnetosphere is ok, but it doesn't need to be equatorial, it can be much smaller, tens of kilometers across, or orbital. Buried would be good, with the right powersource. <span style="text-shadow:#c5C3e3 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em; class=texhtml">]</span><sub>]</sub> 01:03, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

	::One of the problems with the Mars atmosphere is the lack of continental drift. Our Earth atmosphere is continually replenished over the millions of years timescale by CO2 from volcanoes. Since Mars has no continental drift then that doesn't happen so the CO2 will be removed from the atmosphere by action of the ] similarly to the way it works on Earth, but won't be replenished again. This could happen over maybe 100 million years timescale - long in human terms, but short in geological terms - and it means that life that evolved on Mars would face extinction due to lack of atmosphere in the future unless you can work out a way of preventing this from happening. ] (]) 00:23, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

	::Another interesting point is that if you leave Mars in a pristine state it will probably naturally terraform in the future when the Sun goes red giant and the Earth gets too hot for life. That might be exactly the time when a terraformed Mars is most useful to either our remote descendents or whatever intelligent beings evolve on Earth in our future. Though far away in time, ethically you could say they have rights same as we do, so it's all something to think about - intelligent beings and higher animals that might evolve on a terraformed Mars in the geologically near future and go extinct due to lack of atmosphere before they re-discover spaceflight if it has been lost - and beings from Earth that might need Mars naturally terraformed in the geologically remote future. ] (]) 00:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

	::Both these cases are discussed in the published literature on Mars though I am not sure where I've seen them discussed right now, and would need to do a search to find them.] (]) 00:31, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

	== Economics ==

	I think that the discussion of economics on this page pays too much attention to ways that Earth could economically supplement life on Mars, and not enough attention to how Mars could supplement Earth. It mentions trade between Earth and Mars without mentioning what exactly Mars would have to offer Earth. I think the entire feasibility of Mars colonization rests on Mars having something that Earth does not have, and at this point, I have a great deal of trouble seeing what that might be, except cheap land, which doesn't seem to me to make up for the transportation and development costs that would go into it. Maybe a tourist industry, but I don't think you could build anything bigger than a small city on the basis of the tourist industry. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	I agree with the above. The moon advocates have a myriad of ways to provide services/products to earth in a fiscal timetable, and value for value trades. However, this section on mars economics focuses mainly on earth providing economic benefits to mars and not an even exchange of value for value.] (]) 20:38, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

	VIABILITY OF MARTIAN TRADE:
	<P>We know Mars has water enriched with deuterium (5 times more so than Earth). which is a viable export for cash. Strategic metals worth $10,000 / kg or more (gold and more expensive metals) can be shipped to Earth for a profit. Also, if there are asteroid bases, it is FAR cheaper to supply them from Mars than from Earth. Robert Zubrin suggested a triangle trade. High tech parts from Earth to Mars. Fuel, light industry supplies and food from Mars to the Asteroids. Asteroids send strategic metals back to Earth.</P>
	<P>It is also easier for Mars to send stuff to Luna than it is to go from Earth to Luna. So if we get an industry collecting Helium 3 from the Moon, a similar triangle trade can be set up between the Earth, Mars and the Moon. </P>
	<P>It won't be profitable to go to Mars to get Platinum (for example). It would be cheaper to re-open marginal mines on Earth. But the platinum on Mars won't have been picked over for hundreds of years - it will be right on the surface. If there are Martian colonists, they will be able to easily collect iridium, deuterium, rubidium, palladium, gallium, gold, etc, since there will be vulcanism and water created deposits right on the surface. These could be sold for a profit to get high tech, low mass supplies from Earth.</P>
	<P>Mars has all of the elements needed for rocket fuel, plastics, industrial metals, computer chips and food. It also has a ~24 hour day night cycle which allows growing food economically. Coupled with Mars' greatest resource (a shallow gravity well) it can supply needed materials to bases in the inner and outer solars system more cheaply than Earth can.</P>
	<P>For example: On page 230 of "the case for Mars" Robert Zubrin shows that a mission to Ceres requires 50 times less mass to be launched from Mars rather than Earth. (If the mission requires 1,000 tonnes of supplies it can be done with two launches from Mars or 107 launches from Earth.) This assumes that no propellent has to be hauled to Ceres. If we have to bring return fuel as well, then the Earth based mission becomes even more hopeless. Even if space launches from Mars are 10 times more expensive than Earth, it would still be much more profitable to send supplies from Mars.</P>
	<P>Luna has severe disadvantages for a self sustaining colony. It lacks 24 hour day night cycle which is a huge problem if you have to grow plants there. (Plants require a really tremendous amount of energy to grow with artificial light.) Its lack of atmosphere means that plants will die from solar flares unless you have thick glass walls which will crack from the day / night heat stress. It lacks ores since the moon is made up of junk rock (see page 220 ibid for why ores are rare on Luna but likely common on Mars). Elements like H, C, N, P, K & S are all rare or very rare on Luna and must be imported from else where. There is plenty of oxygen and silicon but they are tightly bound to the rock and require a huge amount of energy and hydrogen and carbon to extract. </P>
	For references to what I've said above (and far more details), see "The Case for Mars" and "Opening Space" by Robert Zubrin. ] (]) 14:40, 27 May 2011 (UTC)Warm regards, Rick.

	:Mars provides a shallow gravity well for development further in the solar system, both from it's own weak gravity, but also from it's greater distance from the Sun. Objects are more easily launched from the surface of Mars to the asteroid belt than they are from the surface of the moon, in terms of the required delta-V. But, this isn't really a discussion for an article talk page, but for a user talk page, away from article space. ] (]) 22:00, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
	::The section on economics is about Mars colonists providing for themselves what they need on Mars. Providing value to Earth would certainly be part of a rational for establishing the colony and a help to its survival. This could potentially be done by providing industrial necessities for Earth's moon more cheaply than Earth could. These would include carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, argon, chlorine, and sulfur. The moon could provide raw materials for transportation and construction in low Earth orbit at low cost due to the low potential cost of electro-magnetic Luna to Earth orbit transportation. There was something on Marspedia about this, but I do not know of any reliable sources. This could lead to an addition to the article if anyone could find reliable sources for such a three way trade.--] (]) 23:55, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

	WHY WAS COMMENTS ON ROCKET SLEDS / ROTATING SKY HOOKS DELETED?
	Space elevators are far more difficult to build than a rocket sled / sky ramp and or a rotating sky hook. If you are looking for cheap ways for a martian colony to make getting into space both methods are far more practical than a space elevator. Further, a sky ramp can put things into low Mars orbit, which a space elevator can't do, unless you haul rocket fuel up and launch from part way up the the elevator. I suggest that a rocket sled or Mag Lev style sky ramp located on Pavonis Mons is so many more times more practical than a space elevator (especially for a small colony struggling for capital) that the space elevator reference should be considered to be removed as a remote fantasy.
	I did not site sources in this article, but provided links to Wiki pages where there ARE references. ] (]) 14:40, 27 May 2011 (UTC)Regards, Rick

	:in regards to "24 hour day night cycle-plants-require-tremendous-energy to grow with artificial light..lack of atmosphere.. thick glass" Some parts of the moon are a good deal sunnier than others, near the poles. Thick glass is not as likely as heliostats aiming at small windows, and any lunar colony will have supplyships going to and from ]-like stations, so growing the food in space to save launchcosts eliminates pretty much all of those concerns. Dumping stuff onto the lunar surface is a snap, soft landings using rotating tethers with ballast coming up work much much better on the lunar surface than earth because of the lack of atmosphere and debris. <span style="text-shadow:#c5C3e3 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em; class=texhtml">]</span><sub>]</sub> 01:18, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

	:The article doesn't consider the potential for establishing ] or ] settlements on Mars operating with a ] rather than ]. ] (]) 21:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
	::It also doesn't consider the potential for establishing numerous other possibilities, like a theocratic-socialist commune, or any of millions of possible social and economic experiments. What, in particular, makes these specific possibilities notable and important? ] (]) 21:21, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
	::: <small>Their mention in Robinson's '']'', perhaps. —] (]) 07:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)</small>

	== the German experiment with lichen & bacteria in Mars-like conditions ==

	While interesting, I'd not stress this too much until 1) the results are duplicated independently, and 2) a longer time period is tested. 34 days is hardly long enough to ensure the survival of earth-life in Martian conditions. Cumulative radiation affects, for example, could prove disastrous over the course of months/years. Additionally, one good solar flare would probably destroy any life exposed to it in the same environment that this lab used, which due to its lack of a magnetosphere, Mars would be greatly affected by (locally.) I don't have a paper to cite, but discussions with some profs at the local university were not very positive on the long-term success of such tests. Note that hard questions were not asked/answered in the news articles cited, either. ] (]) 12:20, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

	==Reference for ignorance==
	On the 10th of November 2011 R.Schuster called for a citation for the statement: "It is not known if this is enough to prevent the health problems associated with Weightlessness." However it is well known that no experiments were done in which human beings were subjected to fractional g accelerations for weeks or more at a time. The experimental evidence is from free fall in orbit. There does not need to be much documentation to show that we do not know something. So it seems we could just drop the citation needed template on the basis of common knowledge. We should do that or get rid of the statement. - ] (]) 02:18, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
	:There has not been an enormous show of interest in getting rid of the cn template. I will remove it and see if that promotes comment. - ] (]) 18:50, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

	==COSPAR guidelines==
	In a number of edits on the 19th of July, Robertinventor among other things removed the sentences: "It's impossible for any manned mission to Mars to keep to the requirements of the <nowiki>] (Committee on Space Research) guidelines for planetary protection. NASA currently follows COSPAR guidelines." He replaced these with a second link to ] and his comments about introducing Earth organisms to Mars affecting Mars' biologically pristine condition. I have added the comment about NASA following COSPAR guidelines of planetary protection to the ]. However, this is better addressed directly in the ]</nowiki> article because it is a direct concern of colonization. The time of a colonization mission cannot be until nations supporting launches to orbit consider that the research question of life developing independently on Mars or not has been sufficiently addressed. Technologies necessary to the colonization of Mars have not been sufficiently developed to have a one-way mission to Mars yet, so we are not waiting just for the COSPAR requirements to expire; but it is a definite road block. There are some advocates of colonization that want colonization started in their lifetimes, as do the backers of Mars One. So this is an item of interest to them. For a neutral point of view, we should not be promoting Mars colonization or minimizing or ignoring the problems. We should present significant facts that are published. - ] (]) 17:53, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
	: Apologies, I didn't mean to delete that sentence. Thanks for restoring it ] (]) 00:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

	==Colonization==
	The article fails to point out how easy it is to colonize mars. It has wind, a steady stream of wind will blow on mars as a faint wistle effect. Mars is a dead planet. It can easily be colonized and solar power is not an issue. Ever here of electro-magentic generators? Its called free energy. They would be quite sufficient.--] (]) 14:49, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

	==Domes for greenhouses==
	People can get the idea of domes for Mars colonies by looking at many old science fiction magazine covers<strike>, but a transparent dome is impractical for Mars. Temperatures down to -143 degrees Celsius just overwhelm the limited heating available from a dome greenhouse</strike>. It is more practical for a greenhouse to be a buried cylinder with a portion of the curved roof made of glass and steel exposed to sunlight from mirrors that concentrate it as much as is needed to maintain operating temperature, and the skylight covered by insulation at night. I cannot give a reliable source for this<strike> but it is rather obvious to someone who knows a little physics</strike>. I would like to see a reliable source for the statement that domes are useful for trapping heat for greenhouses on Mars<strike> so that if it comes from a graduate student I can urge that they flunk out and if it comes from a professor I can urge that his research funds be cut back</strike>. - ] (]) 21:23, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
	:User:85.179.178.95 added: "Heating requirements could be lowered if the colonists use domes to trap solar heat." at 21:58 hours on the 25 of May 2008, the only edit listed for that IP. User:98.24.92.120 added: "...especially for <nowiki>]</nowiki>." at 16:59 hours on the 1st of April 2009.
	:It looks like users who thought that they were adding common knowledge mistakenly added this error. I will wait another day for someone to defend this statement before removing it. - ] (]) 07:45, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

	:There are reliable sources that do not involve graduate students, post docs, or professors. Someone might find a popular magazine article that supports the contention that domes would be useful as greenhouses on Mars. If so the contention can be restored to the article with a reference. For now I am taking it out. - ] (]) 11:10, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

	:I have failed to state above the condition under which a transparent dome is impractical for Mars. That is in ambient sunlight. If the sunlight were concentrated to the proper degree, say by a number of flat mirrors actively directing sunlight at the dome, then it might be possible to have a dome for a greenhouse on Mars. It would require multiple pane insulated glass as the panels that make up the dome or something to provide similar effect and insulating covering at night and during cloud cover. It would require comparative modeling to decide what is most economic.
	:So that is the sort of thing to look for if seeking references for restoring mention of domes for greenhouses. - ] (]) 10:07, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

	::<s>I don't have a (non-SF) reference for such "domes", but</s> Note that the air temperature near the equator does not drop to -143° C, only to about -80° C (as experienced by Opportunity ), and the soil remains a bit warmer still. Together with the insulation provided by the near-vacuum atmosphere outside, I ''could'' imagine greenhouse domes to be feasible there (but I'm not sure either way).
	::They are still considered to be practical in some recent (2000s) "hard" science fiction, in German SF author ]'s "Marsprojekt". --] (]) 17:49, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
	:: PS: states such domes are possible: "On Mars, in contrast, the strong greenhouse effect created by such domes would be precisely what is necessary to produce a temperate climate inside." --] (]) 18:02, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

	:::Zubrin is an engineer with considerable experience in Mars colonization. I would consider him a reliable source. Greenhouse domes could go back into the article. However, there is more than trapping heat to consider in building a greenhouse on Mars. It must also hold sufficient gas pressure for the desired plants. That complicates the engineering. In the Zubrin reference that you cited, he states that thin walled inflatable plastic greenhouses could be protected by unpressurized hard plastic domes resistant to UV. That would also provide considerable dead air thermal insulation because the laminar layer is thicker at low pressure. I do not know what sort of pressure he imagines inside the inflatable domes "up to 50 meters in diameter". Zubrin has studied the matter more than I. Plants need some oxygen partial pressure and some water vapor partial pressure. The inflated dome would most likely be a full sphere with an unseen basement. Then if the pressure of inert gas is low there is the problem of fire hazard in a high percentage oxygen atmosphere to consider. I have been rash in what I wrote above. This is a complicated matter and I could benefit from more study. I forgot that ''The Case for Colonizing Mars'' was available on line. I should have consulted that as a minimum. - ] (]) 00:13, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
	::::I have struck my worst, my most unsubstantiated, and most offensive statements above. I still have not decided how to restore mention of greenhouse domes to the article, and it seems that no one else is rushing to restore it. Polyethylene terephthalate is strong enough to hold one atmosphere pressure, if required, with a reasonable thickness dome. So if an unpressurized outer dome provides the UV blocking and provides an insulating layer of unmoving CO2, the other requirements for a greenhouse can be met. Basically, Zubrin was correct but a more detailed source would be better. I hope to get something in the article eventually if I am not beaten to it. - ] (]) 02:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
	:::::I think that for a start a sentence stating the possibility of greenhouses could be re-added either to the Economics or the Habitability section, giving Zubrin as a reference; but there's indeed no need to rush it IMO, if you want to work on a more detailed description.--] (]) 17:31, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Ten meter thick armored glass has been suggested (I think as micro meteor protection): http://en.wikibooks.org/Space_Transport_and_Engineering_Methods/Mars_Development#Long_Term_Development ] (]) 06:25, 26 February 2013 (UTC)Nydoc1

	==Mars has all elements necessary for life==
	There has been the direct observation of many of the elements necessary for life and this could be supported by citation. However some of the elements necessary for life are necessary only in trace amounts and have not been directly measured yet. We have from the theory of the solar system forming from a cloud of gas and dust that Earth and Mars formed from planetesimals that formed from dust in neighboring regions of the cloud. Therefore the elemental composition of Earth and Mars should have been similar to start with and only limited differences in environment caused changes in composition over geological ages. That Mars is expected to have all of the elements necessary for life can be arrived at by synthesis from sources that I have found, but maybe someone can find the synthesis published. Then it could be included in the article. - ] (]) 10:14, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

	==Requested move==
	<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
	:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

	The result of the proposal was '''no consensus'''. --] (]) 17:51, 22 March 2013 (UTC) {{RMnac}}

	] → {{no redirect\|Settlement of Mars}} – Reflects modern terminology in the space advocate community without the distracting cultural baggage accompanying the term 'colonization' <small>''Relisted''. ] (]) 16:33, 15 March 2013 (UTC)</small> ] (]) 15:56, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
	:Do you have any evidence that this represents the "modern terminology in the space advocacy community"? I'm an aerospace engineer myself, and in my experience "colonization" is the common term. ] (]) 17:20, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

	*'''Oppose''' no proof whatsoever that this is "modern terminology". ] "colonization" is the common term. What cultural baggage are you talking about? There's no life on Mars. Seems like runaway attempt at ] without thinking of context, or usage in the field. -- ] (]) 02:08, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

	*'''Support'''. We don't want to risk offending Martians before we even make contact. — ] 04:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
	*:Point well made (;-> but see below. ] (]) 15:09, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
	*::Don't underrate potential offense taken at seemingly harmless terms (such as ]). And don't discount Martian acumen and assume this article isn't being monitored now. The mere fact that such proposals, however inchoate, are given an article at Misplaced Pages could feasibly poison relations. We should tread cautiously. <small> — ] 02:31, 16 March 2013 (UTC)</small>
	*::: Martians might be just as offended by euphemistic reference to "settlement" of their planet. ] (]) 14:00, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
	*::::I doubt it. If euphemisms were that transparent, why would people even bother using them? <small> — ] 18:31, 16 March 2013 (UTC)</small>
	*:::::If the Martians object to colonization, then how is the "settlement" nay better, as it is also politically incorrect (per UN resolutions on some "settlements" on Earth), since any human settlements on Mars will be walled off compounds designed to separate human settlers from the Martians, in hermetically sealed environments to prevent interaction between the human oppressors and the land taken from the Martian natives. -- ] (]) 04:44, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

	*'''Oppose''', we should have every intention of subjugating the Martian population and setting them to work on our Martian plantations. ] (]) 16:45, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
	::This is, indeed, the Earthman's burden. ] (]) 17:36, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

	*'''Oppose'''. ''Colonisation'' is still the generally accepted term, similarly to in biology rather than in sociology. ''Settlement'' may take off (;-> but hasn't yet. And I doubt that any Martians we may find will be impressed by our political correctness, anyway. ] (]) 15:09, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
	:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

	{{comment}} I think consensus was quite clear, it was to not move. -- ] (]) 01:55, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

	==Redirects==
	] , ] , ] should all redirect here. -- ] (]) 02:08, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
	:And they now all do, since the day after you suggested it. We can fix that. Negotiating with the ] may be trickier. ] (]) 15:12, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

	==What is up with the so-called "Concerns" section? ==
	Why is this useful? It seems to me that any worries about colonization should be addressed in the relevant sections up page. A lot of the info is literally duplicated from above. Also, it contains unsourced SYNTH from ]. Already have deleted some of the obvious duplication of info and unsourced opinions. The telerobotics paragraph is irrelevant so that was deleted as well. I have half a mind to delete the whole section. ] (]) 17:14, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

	: I'd like to warn other editors of this page. Warren is on a mission to remove all my edits from the martian section of wikipedia. I only added I think one short bit here. He is a strong advocate of colonization I believe though he denies that he is so I may be wrong about that. But whatever the motivation which is unclear, seems on a mission to downplay or remove any mention of issues of forward and backward contamination of Mars, and any problems there may be with human colonization of the planet.

	: This is what he said: '''''"Your days of spamming Misplaced Pages with your contamination hysteria are over. I see you've spammed your propaganda in practically every article on Mars in the Misplaced Pages. Those "contributions" will be redacted"'''''

	: He has abused me consistently for about a month now and engaged in edit warring, to the extent that I have given up as an editor on contamination issues on Mars. I have always treated him with respect and consideration and never said anything even slightly like that to him.

	: There are many issues with his edits on the MSR page about back contamination. I posted them here to my talk page because if I post to the talk page for MSR then I just can't face his personal attacks any more, and if he edits my talk page I'm going to revert his edits there - at least I can do that much in my own personal space here. But do take a look at this: ''''']'''''. I will not respond to him here. Sorry, if you knew the history you would totally understand.

	: I am not even going to look at what he has done to this section, and if he gets his way, I can see that within a week or two probably there will be hardly any mention left in wikipedia of any concerns or issues with human colonization of Mars. But I know from my experience of the last month that I am totally powerless to do anything, not on my own. Not many editors here seem to have studied these issues at all, so the one who shouts loudest and longest and who totally ignores wikipedia etiquette such as BRD wins the battle.

	: If another editor wants to join in to help save this material, do let me know on my talk page, two editors working together could stop it. One editor on his own can't. ] (]) 20:52, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

	:: Here is the old concerns section if anyone wants to have a go at restoring some of the deleted content - and especially so if the whole thing gets deleted as I think is quite likely to happen ]

	::'''seems on a mission to downplay or remove any mention of issues of forward and backward contamination of Mars''' OK, just as I thought. It is merely Robert promoting his favorite "theory" again. Will delete. ] (]) 16:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

	==Concerns section has now been removed completely==

	This article now has an Advocacy section but no balancing Concerns section.

	I kept a copy of the original Concerns section in my user space here: ]

	I expected this to happen as the author said and is on a cleanup mission, also to remove all content written by myself on contamination issues. I did not write this now deleted section, just contributed some material to it. ] (]) 14:12, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

	: It was deleted because it was all duplicated, redundant material repeated from earlier sections in the article. ] (]) 15:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
	::There was substantial duplication in the section but some points are now missing and I might fit them in where they belong.

	::#Plants need oxygen for their roots. (The specific oxygen need was not mentioned earlier.)
	::#A solar furnace mirror on Mars would need 1.5 times as great an aperture for Earth-like performance. (This refers to specific corrective action that could be taken.)
	::#Mars has dust storms which are now not mentioned.
	:::] (]) 20:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

	== RFAR ==

	Please be aware that a Request for Arbitration has been submitted to address the long-standing user conduct issues that prevent the resolution of content disputes. The RFAR is at:
	http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Mars
	] (]) 23:04, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

	== Lead image ==

	Can we include a more realistic-looking image (like CGI or something like that) as the lead one? The current one looks a little like it's from a children's magazine... --] (]) 19:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
	<br />
	___________<br />

	Why not just stage something in Arizona, to convey the illusion that there are already people on Mars? It seems that this "childish" picture is sufficient to mislead the uninformed that Mars is already colonized.
	] (]) 18:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

	== Edit war regarding "Colonization of Mars", pertaining to use of the word "hospitable" ==

	This is in response to a personal email I received from wikieditor Grayfell, who asked that I discuss this here. I need instruction from him or anyone so I can email him personally, I find communicating this way to be overly complicated and incoherent
	<br />
	First, I'm writing the final pages of a non-fiction book, which includes several chapters on the colonization of Mars, exoplanets, etc, so I'm somewhat of an expert on the subject, regarding the “real potential” of a colony on Mars.

	Now, the Colonization of Mars is a particularly unique subject, in particular regarding it’s inclusion in an ''encyclopedia'', because there isn’t actually a colony on Mars! And such a thing is certainly not inevitable. EVERYTHING about the colonization of Mars is opinion and ''highly speculative''. The case can easily be made that '''nothing about this wiki page is encyclopedic!''' – and that this web page is nothing but a bullhorn for the Mars advocates – which certainly seems to be the case when some of the edits I’ve made are undone before I’ve even logged off! I mean, why would anyone be so vigilant about (of all things) the colonization of Mars?

	Your sense of how things can be edited is too strict. Even your sense of what constitutes an “encyclopedic tone” is subjective and about which you don’t have the last word. You and a few others are way too quick to simply “undo” others edits, and is arrogant.

	First, why do you insist on using the word “hospitable” in describing Mars? That is entirely propagandistic. In no sense of the word, relatively or absolutely, is Mars “hospitable.” That might have been a matter of speculation to people in the stone ages, who gazed up in wonder but who couldn’t have known any better; to Galileo; or even to early 20th century man…but NOW? – given all that we know, in all its degrees of precision?

	The sources that you are protecting belie the facts, and have no place in this wiki page. Anyone can write a science article these days and there’s no reason their opinion is more relevant than mine. Even “science articles” are biased and often have a case to promote, and this is especially true for articles about Mars and the exploration of space. Furthermore, there are no sources that say that Mars has been colonized (regardless of unmanned research - which is truly amazing and gives me goose bumps), so maybe the entire “Colonization of Mars” page should be removed.

	For the intro paragraph for this webpage, you need something for a general audience, not bogged down in misleading data. The fact is, a “colony” on Mars is science-fiction, and there are HUGE obstacles that prevent this from ever happening. – this should be conveyed somewhere in the wiki page, preferably at the top, rather than cater to the dreamers and fantasists in some form of agenda.

	For example, it’s FAR better to say that circumstances on Mars “in fact would be deadly to '''all''' life as we know it (except for perhaps some extremophilic microorganisms”…)” THAN “deadly to '''most''' life” because that implies that there are some forms of life on Mars, which is an OUTRAGEOUS implication, and propagandistic. Things that can be grown in simulated conditions on Earth do NOT change this simple fact! Mars is absolutely NOT hospitable to life and it is propagandistic to suggest that it does – or might. It’s not encyclopedic to suggest that there MIGHT be life on Mars when after the last 50 years of reconnaissance and actual soil and air analysis…NO LIFE HAS BEEN FOUND ON MARS. It’s very irrational at this point in the research - given all that we know, and we know a lot, and to a great deal of precision – that there “might be life on Mars.” That’s a serious hang-up that is not supported by science, only by science-fiction fans and fantasists. Science doesn’t HOPE or DREAM. Science simply collects facts.
	<br />

	The discovery of life on another planet would be the biggest breakthrough OF ALL TIME. That milestone has not been reached, so to imply that life may exist on Mars because of some dumb simulation here on Earth, or the unrestrained enthusiasm for such, does NOT belong in an ''encyclopedia''. Maybe in “Bizarre Fantasy Weekly,” but not an encyclopedia.
	<br />

	'''This wiki page should not be used as a voice for dreamers, fantasists, or space tourism promoters.''' Now, I should be free to say THIS in the introductory paragraph – maybe now you can appreciate how much ''restraint'' I’ve been exercising.

			==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment==
	The intro para to this wiki page should say, or convey, this specific point, because it’s realistic, not bogged down with misleading data, doesn’t promote an agenda, and is entirely, as you say, “encyclopedic”:
			] This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ]. Peer reviewers: ].
	<br />
	::The “colonization of Mars” refers to the theoretical and science-fiction inspired idea of man living on Mars.

			{{small\|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 19:19, 17 January 2022 (UTC)}}
	::Man has always been intrigued by “what’s out there” and the idea of life on other planets. Now, with advancing technology, some think we can not only travel to, but live on Mars – despite conditions that are like nothing on Earth and quite deadly. They believe we can overcome these obstacles through technology – and future technologies that don’t yet exist.
			==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment==
	<br />
			] This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ].

			{{small\|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 18:04, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}}
	It is absolutely true that “This does not preclude the possibility that man might one day step foot on Mars and “scout around,” but whether or not we ever get to Mars seems less a matter of scientific progress, than the balance of power between sane and crazy – which is '''properly referenced''' by National Geographic but which you reject because YOU HAVE AN AGENDA TO PROMOTE, which is in complete violation of the Wiki terms of service.
			==Science Fiction==
			If looked at realistically and honestly the colonization of Mars is in the realm of science fiction as it's .38 earth gravity prohibits anything more than a brief stay, if for no other reason than an impedance to perambulation, the effect of low gravity on the skeletal structure and more seriously on fetus and infants born on Mars: From the Smithonian. ] (]) 10:33, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
			:Yes. For what we have learned at the International Space Station, Mars gravity may not be inductive to human habitability beyond several months. But this is an extrapolation of the research done in microgravity (low Earth orbit) so some animal experiments may have to be done on site to get some actual data. Your edit is quite relevant to the topic in that section, and I tweaked your edit slightly for flow. ] (]) 14:23, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
			]. Please restrict discussions to those related to the work being done on the article itself. ] (]) 20:23, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
			:{{u\|BeŻet}}Excuse me but the above discussion is not WP:Forum. It is relevant to the work being done on the article. Using Mars for anything with humans involved is relevant to the viability of the proposed project and all obstacles and problems needed to be considered and addressed. I think {{u\|Rowan Forest}}s idea of using it as a way station for transportation has merit and is feasible, however the effect of1/3 earth gravity (not the .89 ge experienced on Space Lab, needs serious consideration. A movement on earth that produces a 1 ft leap, will produce what, a 3 ft leap on earth. Innocent projectiles, like those ejected from a cough, will produce what on Mars? So when talking of colonization, all of these problems and possibilities need to be considered and none of that is equivalent to a forum, not as I see it, unless we are expected to uncritically accept all statements and propositions. Is that the expectation?] (]) 23:24, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
			:::Actually, I was trying to usher you gently into discussing not the topic but '''specific changes in the text''', as in "A would be best explained as B while using reference C." Cheers, ] (]) 15:09, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
			::We are not supposed to conduct ] when writing articles on Misplaced Pages, therefore your discussion is a ] discussion. Please consult the '']'' page that explains the general ideas behind Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 20:20, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

			I have some refs about this, but only for plants. , , , , . Most of them conclude that 0.38g for plants is generally OK, though the second 2018 study disagrees, pointing to changes to the cell cycle at that partial gravity. But it seems that the threshold for plants is somewhere between lunar and Martian gravity: 0.16g seems to be a lot worse for them than 0.38g, worse than you'd expect from linearity, and possibly worse even than microgravity. This might be of relevance for this article and the general one for ] (since Mercury shares Mars' gravity, and the Galilean moons and Titan are close to lunar gravity). But again, plants are somewhat far from humans. :) ] (]) 08:44, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
	It’s not scientific or encyclopedic to HOPE for something, just to state the facts or what can be reasonably surmised where “scientific proof” of something may be impossible, which seems to be the case, to a large degree, in this arena.

			== Differences between Earth and Mars ==
	Given what we know, it makes more sense, at this point, to surmise that man will NOT colonize Mars, even though of course there’s nothing to stop him from trying. This opinion should be conveyed, somehow, in the wiki page for this topic.

			I've edited this to make it into normal prose instead of the original bulleted list. It could do with further editing and I'll get back to it if I have time, but other editors shouldn't wait for me. Go ahead and fix what I've done so far. It would be good to reduce the number of sub-headings, or eliminate them altogether. ] (]) 20:14, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
	Bearing in mind that if someone wants to learn about Mars they are better served by the wiki page for “Mars,” because as a planet there is, of course, much to be said.
	] (]) 20:03, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

			== Spoken Misplaced Pages Request ==
	:Okay. First of all, I did not specifically send you an email, I posted on your personal talk page. Your personally setting may automatically send you an email when your talk page is edited, but that's up to you. I have a talk page too (]) all users do. Your talk page is for discussing edits, since that is how Misplaced Pages works.

			I'm currently working on recording the article for Spoken Misplaced Pages. It will hopefully be complete by the coming weekend (April 10-12). ] ] 00:10, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
	:Second of all, you may have some serious confusion about how Misplaced Pages works. Misplaced Pages is not a platform for original research. It is not a place for you to surmise anything, it is a place for you to present the sourced consensus on the topic. Since there are many reliable sources discussing the colonization of Mars, both from an academic stand-point, and from a cultural one, it is a topic suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. If you do not agree, you are free to nominate it for deletion (]). Since I don't think either of us want that, perhaps we should focus on keeping the article consistent with the sources.
			*Done! ] ] 04:07, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

			== Change to opening sentence... ==
	:Regarding your expertise, I encourage you to read ]. For better or for worse, Misplaced Pages doesn't grant you any special privileges for being an expert. Being something of an expert on the topic is fine, but you need to back up your edits with reliable sources. It doesn't matter if your statements are true according to your own expertise, what matters is that they are verifiable and neutrally presented. These are part of the core principles of Misplaced Pages, which you can read about on your talk page.

			The opening sentence is as follows:
	:Accusing me of having an agenda to promote is serious and unfounded; my agenda is building a better encyclopedia, and I remind you to keep this discourse civil. When you make accusation like that, it tends to poison the well, and prevents us from reaching consensus about how the article should be written. Are you accusing me of working for the space-tourism industry? I assure you I am not working for any such group. I have been reverting your edits promptly because I am passionate about editing Misplaced Pages, and I respond to them as soon as I notice them. There is a feature of Misplaced Pages called a ] which allows editors to keep track of recent changes to articles that interest them.
			"The hypothetical colonization of Mars (or settlement of Mars) has received interest from public space agencies and private corporations and has received extensive treatment in science fiction writing, film, and art."
			I suggest that the word "hypothetical" needs to be removed. It is the ACTUAL colonisation of Mars that has received interest from blah, blah, blah, though I'm not suggesting the word "actual" should be included. What I mean is, Elon Musk is not interested in the hypothetical colonisation of Mars, he is interested in actually doing it, and intends to do it.
			At the moment the idea of doing it might be hypothetical - or, rather, theoretical - because we don't know whether all of the various problems can be solved, and many of the proposed solutions are hypothetical, or theoretical, but he (and many others, which is what the article is about) genuinely believe the various problems can be solved and that Mars will be colonised.
			To try to explain what I'm saying another way, in 1961 JFK wasn't interested in hypothetically landing some Americans on the Moon - he was interested in landing Americans on the Moon and committed the United States to doing it - even though it was only hypothetically (or theoretically) possible at that time.
			Does that make sense?
			You wouldn't say President Kennedy was hypothetically interested in landing Americans on the Moon, and you wouldn't say the hypothetical colonisation of Mars has received interest from Elon Musk. You would say President Kennedy was interested in landing Americans on the Moon, and the colonisation of Mars is of interest to Elon Musk.
			Aside from that, isn't the word "theoretical" more suitable than "hypothetical", given that there are many people who believe they have solutions for all of the potential problems?
			] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added 16:54, 27 March 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:Done. I've moved the word so that it still applies to the second half of the sentence. ] (]) 16:03, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

			== Perchlorate "hazardous to all known life" ==
	:The word ], which I did not introduce to this article, and am perfectly amenable to changing, does not exclusively mean that the planet is teaming with life or any such nonsense. It simply means that it is more receptive to life than any other planet in the system besides Earth. That is what sources say, and that is the consensus which should be reflected in the article. If you want to rephrase that, please do, but do not use that as an excuse to dramatically rewrite the entire article to your own personal specifications.

			Yes, this claim has citations, but what is ] if not something used by ''known life'' to not only make the stuff less hazardous but actually useful? ] (]) 19:35, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
	:It's strange that you talk about the value of the article ], because you are the one who has been removing the link to it. You have also removed preexisting sources without giving any explanation. You have raised some very good points, but your edits had many technical problems, and as I have said, I do not think they meet Misplaced Pages's guidelines for writing in a formal tone. I admire your enthusiasm for editing, but if, instead of assuming that I am your enemy, we actually worked together, I think we could make this a better article. Isn't that the whole point of having a collaborative encyclopedia? ] (]) 21:57, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
			:Circular reasoning, but more importantly, the Wiki talk pages are not a forum to discuss the topic. ] (]) 07:12, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

			== Practicality ==
	As I indicated above, there are really no facts regarding a colonization of Mars, only opinions - much of which is wild speculation - so the idea of "reliable sources" regarding this is somewhat meaningless - since no one's been to Mars! One could challenge anyone who claims to be an expert on this subject. For that reason I don't understand why this webpage is so bulky! There seems to be nothing on the plus side for Mars! So where does the optimism come from?

			Apropos to the "Science fiction" topic above, as well as the puffing and promoting of Mars colonization schemes, at least ] appears to have been a scam, I suggest a section on reality versus fiction. The idea that people can go to Mars and step off the spaceship and walk around is a staple of science fiction. The idea that a manned mission can go to Mars and survive without a huge amount of survival materials preceding them is a staple of Elon Musk and other entrepreneurs. The reality is that it's hard to get there in the first place and it takes a long time; that unless suitable environments are prepared in advance, colonists are likely to die; and that launching from Earth is prohibitively costly. Launching from the Moon makes more sense, and the Moon is a good place to practice living on Mars, much better than Hawaii or Antarctica. Some people seem to think that Mars should be colonized before the Moon. I don't understand that. I think there should be a practically-oriented section on the pros and cans of various ways to get there and how to prepare in advance for colonization. The well-designed robots that are there already have shown us that nothing can survive there for long except a well-designed robot. ] (]) Eric ] (]) 23:38, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
	Even for reliable sources, some things are still a matter of subjective opinion, or involve tremendous amounts of speculation, particularly about a colony on Mars. Such opinions are very biased, it's naïve to deny this. This occurs, for example, when a "specialist" says something will happen in 20 years - which gets them off the hook, and implies "let the next generation do it while we still collect a paycheck." Engineers are not magicians, they can't turn lead into gold. There's an incentive to push things ahead 20 years and not a more realistic 50 - or 100. 20 years seems more within reach, so project funding is maintained. Imagine if they said 50 years - funding would stop! When a specialist at NASA says "something can be done" its because if he said "it can't be done" he and the rest of his pals would lose their jobs! So this website CAN'T be a bullhorn for NASA or the Mars advocates. AND IN THIS ARENA, MANY THINGS MUST BE SURMISED, and this Misplaced Pages page includes a lot of surmising and speculating. Who do you think has their fingers crossed the hardest? NASA. When we read their articles we need to take everything they say with a few grains of salt, and be skeptical of their optimism, because the idea of a colony on Mars IS outrageous, for many reasons (and hence the book I'm writing). For starters, heavy payloads can't land gently on Mars - but that's just a distraction, that's not even one of the REAL obstacles. Maybe these reasons are just more intuitive to me than you, based on years of reading and my own point of view, for which I have 2 science degrees to support, but you have a point of view too, it's hard for ANYONE to be completely objective, we're all rooting for one side or another.

			== pressure on Hellas ==

			:{{tq\|] is the lowest lying plain below the Martian ]. The atmospheric pressure is relatively higher in this place when compared to the rest of Mars.}}
	Also, there are a lot of "opinions" on Misplaced Pages, everything isn't sourced. Everything I've contributed to Misplaced Pages is objective, restrained, suitable for a general audience, and free of promotion. Even the part about "balance between sane and crazy" but I knew that would be deleted, even though some science articles are describing some things in this arena as just that. The content I've repeatedly posted to introduce this Misplaced Pages page is both historically correct, succinct, insightful, and captures the spirit of the concept without going overboard.

			It would be good to say by what ratio. ] (]) 17:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	:Please remember that you do not ] this article. Nobody is denying that opinions on this topic vary, that doesn't mean that ''your opinion'' somehow becomes the default position. Yes, there is a lot of speculation about colonizing Mars. We only care about speculation that is discussed in reliable sources. That is how Misplaced Pages works. If you insist on inserting your own version of the article with only the slimmest attempt at compromise, you are engaged in ]. ] (]) 02:55, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

	== ~~Latest~~ ~~edits~~ ==		== Due and undue weight ==

			I'd like to request editors keep focus on ]. That isn't merely a guideline, it is an English Misplaced Pages '''<u>'''policy'''</u>'''. Please read it; understand it; follow it. (] - '']'') 04:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
	], why are you removing sourced, relevant text and wikilinks? --] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

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Science Fiction

If looked at realistically and honestly the colonization of Mars is in the realm of science fiction as it's .38 earth gravity prohibits anything more than a brief stay, if for no other reason than an impedance to perambulation, the effect of low gravity on the skeletal structure and more seriously on fetus and infants born on Mars: From the Smithonian.

Yes. For what we have learned at the International Space Station, Mars gravity may not be inductive to human habitability beyond several months. But this is an extrapolation of the research done in microgravity (low Earth orbit) so some animal experiments may have to be done on site to get some actual data. Your edit is quite relevant to the topic in that section, and I tweaked your edit slightly for flow. Rowan Forest (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a forum. Please restrict discussions to those related to the work being done on the article itself. BeŻet (talk) 20:23, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

BeŻetExcuse me but the above discussion is not WP:Forum. It is relevant to the work being done on the article. Using Mars for anything with humans involved is relevant to the viability of the proposed project and all obstacles and problems needed to be considered and addressed. I think Rowan Forests idea of using it as a way station for transportation has merit and is feasible, however the effect of1/3 earth gravity (not the .89 ge experienced on Space Lab, needs serious consideration. A movement on earth that produces a 1 ft leap, will produce what, a 3 ft leap on earth. Innocent projectiles, like those ejected from a cough, will produce what on Mars? So when talking of colonization, all of these problems and possibilities need to be considered and none of that is equivalent to a forum, not as I see it, unless we are expected to uncritically accept all statements and propositions. Is that the expectation?Oldperson (talk) 23:24, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I was trying to usher you gently into discussing not the topic but specific changes in the text, as in "A would be best explained as B while using reference C." Cheers, Rowan Forest (talk) 15:09, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

We are not supposed to conduct original research when writing articles on Misplaced Pages, therefore your discussion is a forum discussion. Please consult the Contributing to Misplaced Pages page that explains the general ideas behind Misplaced Pages. BeŻet (talk) 20:20, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I have some refs about this, but only for plants. 2013, 2018, 2018, 2019, 2021. Most of them conclude that 0.38g for plants is generally OK, though the second 2018 study disagrees, pointing to changes to the cell cycle at that partial gravity. But it seems that the threshold for plants is somewhere between lunar and Martian gravity: 0.16g seems to be a lot worse for them than 0.38g, worse than you'd expect from linearity, and possibly worse even than microgravity. This might be of relevance for this article and the general one for space colonization (since Mercury shares Mars' gravity, and the Galilean moons and Titan are close to lunar gravity). But again, plants are somewhat far from humans. :) Double sharp (talk) 08:44, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Differences between Earth and Mars

I've edited this to make it into normal prose instead of the original bulleted list. It could do with further editing and I'll get back to it if I have time, but other editors shouldn't wait for me. Go ahead and fix what I've done so far. It would be good to reduce the number of sub-headings, or eliminate them altogether. Chris Jefferies (talk) 20:14, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Spoken Misplaced Pages Request

I'm currently working on recording the article for Spoken Misplaced Pages. It will hopefully be complete by the coming weekend (April 10-12). Ajshul 😃 00:10, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Done! Ajshul 😃 04:07, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Change to opening sentence...

The opening sentence is as follows: "The hypothetical colonization of Mars (or settlement of Mars) has received interest from public space agencies and private corporations and has received extensive treatment in science fiction writing, film, and art." I suggest that the word "hypothetical" needs to be removed. It is the ACTUAL colonisation of Mars that has received interest from blah, blah, blah, though I'm not suggesting the word "actual" should be included. What I mean is, Elon Musk is not interested in the hypothetical colonisation of Mars, he is interested in actually doing it, and intends to do it. At the moment the idea of doing it might be hypothetical - or, rather, theoretical - because we don't know whether all of the various problems can be solved, and many of the proposed solutions are hypothetical, or theoretical, but he (and many others, which is what the article is about) genuinely believe the various problems can be solved and that Mars will be colonised. To try to explain what I'm saying another way, in 1961 JFK wasn't interested in hypothetically landing some Americans on the Moon - he was interested in landing Americans on the Moon and committed the United States to doing it - even though it was only hypothetically (or theoretically) possible at that time. Does that make sense? You wouldn't say President Kennedy was hypothetically interested in landing Americans on the Moon, and you wouldn't say the hypothetical colonisation of Mars has received interest from Elon Musk. You would say President Kennedy was interested in landing Americans on the Moon, and the colonisation of Mars is of interest to Elon Musk. Aside from that, isn't the word "theoretical" more suitable than "hypothetical", given that there are many people who believe they have solutions for all of the potential problems? FillsHerTease (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:54, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Done. I've moved the word so that it still applies to the second half of the sentence. Chris55 (talk) 16:03, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Perchlorate "hazardous to all known life"

Yes, this claim has citations, but what is perchlorate reductase if not something used by known life to not only make the stuff less hazardous but actually useful? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:35, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Circular reasoning, but more importantly, the Wiki talk pages are not a forum to discuss the topic. 50.111.39.61 (talk) 07:12, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Practicality

Apropos to the "Science fiction" topic above, as well as the puffing and promoting of Mars colonization schemes, at least one of which appears to have been a scam, I suggest a section on reality versus fiction. The idea that people can go to Mars and step off the spaceship and walk around is a staple of science fiction. The idea that a manned mission can go to Mars and survive without a huge amount of survival materials preceding them is a staple of Elon Musk and other entrepreneurs. The reality is that it's hard to get there in the first place and it takes a long time; that unless suitable environments are prepared in advance, colonists are likely to die; and that launching from Earth is prohibitively costly. Launching from the Moon makes more sense, and the Moon is a good place to practice living on Mars, much better than Hawaii or Antarctica. Some people seem to think that Mars should be colonized before the Moon. I don't understand that. I think there should be a practically-oriented section on the pros and cans of various ways to get there and how to prepare in advance for colonization. The well-designed robots that are there already have shown us that nothing can survive there for long except a well-designed robot. Wastrel Way (talk) Eric Wastrel Way (talk) 23:38, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

pressure on Hellas

Hellas Planitia is the lowest lying plain below the Martian geodetic datum. The atmospheric pressure is relatively higher in this place when compared to the rest of Mars.

It would be good to say by what ratio. —Tamfang (talk) 17:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Due and undue weight

I'd like to request editors keep focus on WP:DUE. That isn't merely a guideline, it is an English Misplaced Pages policy. Please read it; understand it; follow it. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 04:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

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