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I am nominating this featured article for review because the article contains too much opinion about the subject's living mother's alleged misleading statements in her publicity campaign in the aftermath of her daughter's disappearance, From the top, it links the words 'media sensation' to the page on sensationalism. The link is a way of surreptitiously stating an opinion in WP's voice. The lead names 3 living persons, namely Van der Sloot and the Kalpoes brothers as suspects ('released for lack of evidence') for something they have never even been tried for. Yet the lead does not mention that Van der Sloot was convicted of murdering a young woman in Peru 5 years later. The mother's 2006 divorce should not be 'Background' on a girl who disappeared in 2005; the Disappearance section names living people as part of a group and a police chief is quoted as alleging that the same group engaged in "'wild partying, a lot of drinking, lots of room switching every night'". The Disappearance section does not mention that Dompig, the policeman who is quoted about the Natalee Holloway and her group were drinking all the time, said publicly as early as March 2006 that the investigators had concluded that Natalee had probably O.D.ed and had not been murdered. There is a lot of argumentative counterpoint on Natalee Holloway's mother's complaints about the Aruban investigation, but those complaints appear very differently in the light of what Dompig said about Natalee's death not being murder. Much further down the long 'Continued search, suspects rearrested and released again' subsection does have Dompigs OD theory but it's too hard to find. So the 2006 statements by Dompig about alleged heavy drinking are disconnected from the the relevant theory. It seems they are just there to bring Natalee Holloway's character in. as I understand it the word 'denied' is not recommended for responses to accusations as they are about alleged drug use by Holloway. ] (]) 19:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC) | I am nominating this featured article for review because the article contains too much opinion about the subject's living mother's alleged misleading statements in her publicity campaign in the aftermath of her daughter's disappearance, From the top, it links the words 'media sensation' to the page on sensationalism. The link is a way of surreptitiously stating an opinion in WP's voice. The lead names 3 living persons, namely Van der Sloot and the Kalpoes brothers as suspects ('released for lack of evidence') for something they have never even been tried for. Yet the lead does not mention that Van der Sloot was convicted of murdering a young woman in Peru 5 years later. The mother's 2006 divorce should not be 'Background' on a girl who disappeared in 2005; the Disappearance section names living people as part of a group and a police chief is quoted as alleging that the same group engaged in "'wild partying, a lot of drinking, lots of room switching every night'". The Disappearance section does not mention that Dompig, the policeman who is quoted about the Natalee Holloway and her group were drinking all the time, said publicly as early as March 2006 that the investigators had concluded that Natalee had probably O.D.ed and had not been murdered. There is a lot of argumentative counterpoint on Natalee Holloway's mother's complaints about the Aruban investigation, but those complaints appear very differently in the light of what Dompig said about Natalee's death not being murder. Much further down the long 'Continued search, suspects rearrested and released again' subsection does have Dompigs OD theory but it's too hard to find. So the 2006 statements by Dompig about alleged heavy drinking are disconnected from the the relevant theory. It seems they are just there to bring Natalee Holloway's character in. as I understand it the word 'denied' is not recommended for responses to accusations as they are about alleged drug use by Holloway. ] (]) 19:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
: I was responsible for promoting this article, and I have long had a policy of not engaging FARs for articles I promoted, but my concerns about the neutrality of this article, and off-topic smears at the mother while text relevant to the daughter's accomplishments are left out, are recorded in the article's talk page archives. I have additional recent concerns about editors who have never engaged the article previously suddenly appearing in support of preserving the text that concerns Overagainst. These concerns go back years, so I suggest the FAR should continue (and will need close monitoring by delegates). ] (]) 19:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC) | : I was responsible for promoting this article, and I have long had a policy of not engaging FARs for articles I promoted, but my concerns about the neutrality of this article, and off-topic smears at the mother while text relevant to the daughter's accomplishments are left out, are recorded in the article's talk page archives. I have additional recent concerns about editors who have never engaged the article previously suddenly appearing in support of preserving the text that concerns Overagainst. These concerns go back years, so I suggest the FAR should continue (and will need close monitoring by delegates). ] (]) 19:36, 1 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::There are no grounds for demoting this article. I'm not sure what Sandy's getting at. As for Overagainst, they've failed to gain consensus for their views constantly on the talk page, so they're trying an FAR. I suggest this be speedy closed. The community ruled that this article was neutral when it was promoted, and it was substantially in the same shape then as now. Note that Sandy objected to it, dragged her feet on promoting it, put in comments that made clear her views that the editors who worked very hard on the article had an "Aruban" point of view. I won't bother with diffs, it's through the archives. There are no grounds for an FAR--] (]) 20:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC) | ::There are no grounds for demoting this article. I'm not sure what Sandy's getting at. As for Overagainst, they've failed to gain consensus for their views constantly on the talk page, so they're trying an FAR. I suggest this be speedy closed. The community ruled that this article was neutral when it was promoted, and it was substantially in the same shape then as now. Note that Sandy objected to it, dragged her feet on promoting it, put in comments that made clear her views that the editors who worked very hard on the article had an "Aruban" point of view. I won't bother with diffs, it's through the archives. There are no grounds for an FAR--] (]) 20:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::"The community ruled that this article was neutral when it was promoted," If that is any kind of argument then why have any FAR ever. The following is only the most egregious example, in the 'Background' (on Natallee Holloway who disappeared in May 2005) section: "Jug Twitty began divorce proceedings on December 29, 2006, stating the two have "such a complete incompatibility of temperament that the parties can no longer live together."". The next section starts "On Thursday, May 26, 2005". That quote from divorce papers filed in '''2006''' by a non-public living person about Natalee's mother is there for one reason only: attacking the character of a living person. <small>] (]) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> ] (]) 21:56, 1 November 2013 (UTC) | :::"The community ruled that this article was neutral when it was promoted," If that is any kind of argument then why have any FAR ever. The following is only the most egregious example, in the 'Background' (on Natallee Holloway who disappeared in May 2005) section: "Jug Twitty began divorce proceedings on December 29, 2006, stating the two have "such a complete incompatibility of temperament that the parties can no longer live together."". The next section starts "On Thursday, May 26, 2005". That quote from divorce papers filed in '''2006''' by a non-public living person about Natalee's mother is there for one reason only: attacking the character of a living person. <small>] (]) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> ] (]) 21:56, 1 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
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:::Why should it be covered in the lede? That would present BLP issues, I think. Mr. van der Sloot has not been charged with a crime in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Since the lede contains, generally, information important to the article, the reader would be likely to take that as an intimation that van der Sloot is guilty in the Holloway case. On the other hand, if it is not there for that purpose, for what purpose is it there? But that is the problem, you see. Overagainst is for adding information that shows Joran to be a bad 'un and Natalee and Beth to be saints. As for the comment above about Jug Twitty not being a public figure, he was often on Foxnews twice in the same night, if both Hannity and Greta got to him. Tell him that, not us.--] (]) 04:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC) | :::Why should it be covered in the lede? That would present BLP issues, I think. Mr. van der Sloot has not been charged with a crime in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Since the lede contains, generally, information important to the article, the reader would be likely to take that as an intimation that van der Sloot is guilty in the Holloway case. On the other hand, if it is not there for that purpose, for what purpose is it there? But that is the problem, you see. Overagainst is for adding information that shows Joran to be a bad 'un and Natalee and Beth to be saints. As for the comment above about Jug Twitty not being a public figure, he was often on Foxnews twice in the same night, if both Hannity and Greta got to him. Tell him that, not us.--] (]) 04:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::Comment: We've been over this ''ad infinitum, ad nauseaum.'' It's an FA-class article. A FAR is not reasonable. Overagainst, your endless content disputes need to end. ]<sup>]</sup> 09:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::Comment: We've been over this ''ad infinitum, ad nauseaum.'' It's an FA-class article. A FAR is not reasonable. Overagainst, your endless content disputes need to end. ]<sup>]</sup> 09:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::Again, this is not about any specific content, I've accepted the article is not going to be changed. The point at issue is whether the ] article taken as a whole fulfills the ]. I think that anyone who reads the article will get an overall impression of misogyny toward Natalee Holloway and her mother; their flaws are being presented as the context of the disappearance and investigation, instead of the other way about.] (]) 20:20, 3 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::Again, this is not about any specific content, I've accepted the article is not going to be changed. The point at issue is whether the ] article taken as a whole fulfills the ]. I think that anyone who reads the article will get an overall impression of misogyny toward Natalee Holloway and her mother; their flaws are being presented as the context of the disappearance and investigation, instead of the other way about.] (]) 20:20, 3 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
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::::::::You perceived a questionable undertone in your comment; if you could apply that sensibility to the article none of this would be necessary.__] (]) 19:10, 6 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::::::You perceived a questionable undertone in your comment; if you could apply that sensibility to the article none of this would be necessary.__] (]) 19:10, 6 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::Agree with Wehwalt. ]]. Time to move on. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:23, 6 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::Agree with Wehwalt. ]]. Time to move on. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:23, 6 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::::::::<small>] (]) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> ] (]) 20:21, 6 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::::::::<small>] (]) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> ] (]) 20:21, 6 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::::::::::It's not that simple. FAR is not a court of appeal for talk page discussions you've given up on. The question of bias was discussed by a group of editors on the talk page, some involved in the past in the article, some not. You were the only person who felt that way. That's not a solid basis for an FAR.--] (]) 05:57, 7 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::::::::::It's not that simple. FAR is not a court of appeal for talk page discussions you've given up on. The question of bias was discussed by a group of editors on the talk page, some involved in the past in the article, some not. You were the only person who felt that way. That's not a solid basis for an FAR.--] (]) 05:57, 7 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::::::As '']'' is being held up as certified better than 99.9% of other WP articles and an example of how they ought to be, it is quite in order for someone who thinks it falls short of that exalted status to ask for neutral observers take a look at it. Anyway, could we stop going round and round about whether I am a fit person with pure motives and discuss the article in relation to the subject and her (living) mother. By the way, on the FA list, ] is classified in 'legal biographies' along with articles about jurists like Learned Hand, and those convicted on serious criminal charges like ] (perjury) and ] (murder). '']'' has a tone about the subject (and her mother) that one might expect about a perpetrator. ___] (]) 21:08, 7 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::::::As '']'' is being held up as certified better than 99.9% of other WP articles and an example of how they ought to be, it is quite in order for someone who thinks it falls short of that exalted status to ask for neutral observers take a look at it. Anyway, could we stop going round and round about whether I am a fit person with pure motives and discuss the article in relation to the subject and her (living) mother. By the way, on the FA list, ] is classified in 'legal biographies' along with articles about jurists like Learned Hand, and those convicted on serious criminal charges like ] (perjury) and ] (murder). '']'' has a tone about the subject (and her mother) that one might expect about a perpetrator. ___] (]) 21:08, 7 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::::::::OVeragainst, have you noticed that NO ONE is coming over here to review this? ]<sup>]</sup> 21:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::::::::OVeragainst, have you noticed that NO ONE is coming over here to review this? ]<sup>]</sup> 21:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::::::::::::::<small>] (]) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> I think the article reads like an ''antidote'' to the publicity surrounding Natalee Holloway's disappearance rather than an encyclopedic article on that subject. A true FA article would be a stand alone encyclopedic account, not somewhere to go to find out that a couple of women are 'no saints'.__] (]) 19:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::::::::::::::<small>] (]) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> I think the article reads like an ''antidote'' to the publicity surrounding Natalee Holloway's disappearance rather than an encyclopedic article on that subject. A true FA article would be a stand alone encyclopedic account, not somewhere to go to find out that a couple of women are 'no saints'.__] (]) 19:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::::::::::It's not that I don't like you, no. It's just that I don't like that you're insisting on pursuing a FAR here, when the article seems to be in line with the FA standards. It seems like a waste of time, really, since the article is in fine shape (Yes, even the section on Ms. Twitty). ] (]) 20:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::::::::::It's not that I don't like you, no. It's just that I don't like that you're insisting on pursuing a FAR here, when the article seems to be in line with the FA standards. It seems like a waste of time, really, since the article is in fine shape (Yes, even the section on Ms. Twitty). ] (]) 20:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
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::::The article is quite upfront that JvdS is suspected of killing Holloway: "''Van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers were arrested on suspicion of kidnapping and murdering Holloway.''" He's still the lead suspect, and I don't think there's any reading of the article that minimizes that. To indicate that there has been some sudden crystallization of world opinion that it was a ''murder'' overstates things, though. The theory of it being a death by misadventure in which JvdS was heavily involved remains plausible. Regardless, Dompig's views are necessary to explain the progress of the investigation, even if you believe they have been demonstrated to be false views.—](]) 22:05, 10 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::The article is quite upfront that JvdS is suspected of killing Holloway: "''Van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers were arrested on suspicion of kidnapping and murdering Holloway.''" He's still the lead suspect, and I don't think there's any reading of the article that minimizes that. To indicate that there has been some sudden crystallization of world opinion that it was a ''murder'' overstates things, though. The theory of it being a death by misadventure in which JvdS was heavily involved remains plausible. Regardless, Dompig's views are necessary to explain the progress of the investigation, even if you believe they have been demonstrated to be false views.—](]) 22:05, 10 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::Correct. We do not know what happened to Natalee Holloway. Overagainst seems to be running on a theory that as Joran was convicted of killing Flores in Peru, he must have killed Natalee in Aruba. Mebbe. We do not know. Dompig's theory is as good as any. A reputable person, the police chief of the island at the time, opined as to his view as to how she died (if she died, of course). He has not, to my knowledge, retracted the statement. It stands. Plus Joran "killing" can be at all levels of culpability, from improper disposing of a body (they were talking about charging him with that one at one stage) to murder. And then how did he get rid of the body at age 17 against the best forensic authorities of three nations? Nothing in this case is simple.--] (]) 03:15, 11 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::Correct. We do not know what happened to Natalee Holloway. Overagainst seems to be running on a theory that as Joran was convicted of killing Flores in Peru, he must have killed Natalee in Aruba. Mebbe. We do not know. Dompig's theory is as good as any. A reputable person, the police chief of the island at the time, opined as to his view as to how she died (if she died, of course). He has not, to my knowledge, retracted the statement. It stands. Plus Joran "killing" can be at all levels of culpability, from improper disposing of a body (they were talking about charging him with that one at one stage) to murder. And then how did he get rid of the body at age 17 against the best forensic authorities of three nations? Nothing in this case is simple.--] (]) 03:15, 11 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::::::::Agreed. We cannot engage in ] or speculate beyond what can be ]. This is an encyclopedia, can only stick to the facts. ]<sup>]</sup> 05:56, 11 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::::::::Agreed. We cannot engage in ] or speculate beyond what can be ]. This is an encyclopedia, can only stick to the facts. ]<sup>]</sup> 05:56, 11 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::::I don't advocate suggesting what happened. I do not see why a form of words can't be found to mention the Peru conviction in the lede without synth, as is been done in the main article already, without any objection of synth occuring. It seems odd not to have it in the lede, still I am open to discussion about that and other aspects of the lede. I think the article should ceasing to quote Deputy Cheif Dompig on Natalee's drinking (and general 'room swapping') at such length, without making it clear in the same section that it was considered significant as part of an accidental death theory. The theory is mentioned later in the article and it doesn't rate a double mention.] (]) 10:20, 12 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::::I don't advocate suggesting what happened. I do not see why a form of words can't be found to mention the Peru conviction in the lede without synth, as is been done in the main article already, without any objection of synth occuring. It seems odd not to have it in the lede, still I am open to discussion about that and other aspects of the lede. I think the article should ceasing to quote Deputy Cheif Dompig on Natalee's drinking (and general 'room swapping') at such length, without making it clear in the same section that it was considered significant as part of an accidental death theory. The theory is mentioned later in the article and it doesn't rate a double mention.] (]) 10:20, 12 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::::: I see. Your view of BLP would allow for implications that someone was guilty of murder, and I've explained to you why putting that in the lead would do just that. Yet you object very strongly and over and over and over again to accusing someone of being involved in a divorce. neither has been charged with any crime against Natalee Holloway.--] (]) 10:47, 12 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::::: I see. Your view of BLP would allow for implications that someone was guilty of murder, and I've explained to you why putting that in the lead would do just that. Yet you object very strongly and over and over and over again to accusing someone of being involved in a divorce. neither has been charged with any crime against Natalee Holloway.--] (]) 10:47, 12 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
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:::::There seem to be a lot of complaints about your ''featured'' article as it is. Lets stick to discussing the article as you left it.] (]) 22:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::There seem to be a lot of complaints about your ''featured'' article as it is. Lets stick to discussing the article as you left it.] (]) 22:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::::None of the other concerns are relevant here. Here, the ONLY issue I see you raising is an attempt to introduce original research and synth by adding guilt by association against van der Sloot. While your hypothesis might be accurate, we cannot hypothesize on wiki, and that is the beginning, the middle, and the end of it. Until he is charged with THIS crime, anything else is conjecture and invokes wikipedia's BLP policy. End of story. ]<sup>]</sup> 01:29, 14 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::::None of the other concerns are relevant here. Here, the ONLY issue I see you raising is an attempt to introduce original research and synth by adding guilt by association against van der Sloot. While your hypothesis might be accurate, we cannot hypothesize on wiki, and that is the beginning, the middle, and the end of it. Until he is charged with THIS crime, anything else is conjecture and invokes wikipedia's BLP policy. End of story. ]<sup>]</sup> 01:29, 14 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::::Overagainst, I disagree. There is an issue with the name, but that was all discussed at the time and there was never consensus for changing it. The other issue is the tone of the article. You want the article to be whitewashed of anything negative regarding Beth and Natalee and that it damn Joran. That is a question of POV that FAR is ill-placed to address.--] (]) 04:48, 14 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::::Overagainst, I disagree. There is an issue with the name, but that was all discussed at the time and there was never consensus for changing it. The other issue is the tone of the article. You want the article to be whitewashed of anything negative regarding Beth and Natalee and that it damn Joran. That is a question of POV that FAR is ill-placed to address.--] (]) 04:48, 14 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::I know what your settled view is. The grounds for me initiating this FA review are at the top of the page. They are general because there are too many instances to give in detail. I think excessive weight is given throughout the article to things about Beth Holloway that are negative. There is no problem with having some of these things, but the extent of it is completely over the top . In my opinion it amounts to an untoward emphasis of the type mentioned in ] "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. '''Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements'''" ] (]) 10:19, 14 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::::I know what your settled view is. The grounds for me initiating this FA review are at the top of the page. They are general because there are too many instances to give in detail. I think excessive weight is given throughout the article to things about Beth Holloway that are negative. There is no problem with having some of these things, but the extent of it is completely over the top . In my opinion it amounts to an untoward emphasis of the type mentioned in ] "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. '''Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements'''" ] (]) 10:19, 14 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
<small>] (]) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> Might I suggest that you all stop arguing over details, and engage ]? This article is not neutral, it is not stable, and it does not reflect a survey of high quality sources. It has not been updated since it was written to sources like Fox News. Perhaps a review of better sources will be a better use of time here, since there are ''ample examples'' of why the poor sourcing in this article leads to a lack of comprehensiveness and POV. I have done that work, but am uninterested in this ongoing POV battle. Those of you care, go out and do the research and make the case. And will someone please fix the overuse of ''however'' and ''subsequently'' (10 each as of now), hallmarks of pedestrian and redundant prose? See and for discussions of the overuse of however. ] (]) 17:08, 17 November 2013 (UTC) | <small>] (]) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> Might I suggest that you all stop arguing over details, and engage ]? This article is not neutral, it is not stable, and it does not reflect a survey of high quality sources. It has not been updated since it was written to sources like Fox News. Perhaps a review of better sources will be a better use of time here, since there are ''ample examples'' of why the poor sourcing in this article leads to a lack of comprehensiveness and POV. I have done that work, but am uninterested in this ongoing POV battle. Those of you care, go out and do the research and make the case. And will someone please fix the overuse of ''however'' and ''subsequently'' (10 each as of now), hallmarks of pedestrian and redundant prose? See and for discussions of the overuse of however. ] (]) 17:08, 17 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::<small>] (]) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> ] (]) 17:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC) | ::<small>] (]) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> ] (]) 17:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::Back to the article. The writing is not "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard" as the number one FA criterion says. That doesn't seem to bother many people. There may be an argument about highly unusual BLP considerations which arose in the last few years preventing a fully encyclopedic account of the most notable aspects of the case, so I can see it may pass muster as an article, ''now'' (after the removal since this review started). But the question then should be, how could an article labouring under those BLP constraints qualify as an FA when the things of main notability can't be covered in an encyclopedic way? Can't have it both ways, if the article is very much constrained by BLP then it is not a featured article.] (]) 18:46, 17 November 2013 (UTC) | :::Back to the article. The writing is not "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard" as the number one FA criterion says. That doesn't seem to bother many people. There may be an argument about highly unusual BLP considerations which arose in the last few years preventing a fully encyclopedic account of the most notable aspects of the case, so I can see it may pass muster as an article, ''now'' (after the removal since this review started). But the question then should be, how could an article labouring under those BLP constraints qualify as an FA when the things of main notability can't be covered in an encyclopedic way? Can't have it both ways, if the article is very much constrained by BLP then it is not a featured article.] (]) 18:46, 17 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
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:I believe it is usual for the nominator to state what criteria are not met and why. I shall await specific statements, that do not rely on personal opinion, or upon original research. It goes without saying that any specific prose glitches I can and will fix.--] (]) 00:22, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | :I believe it is usual for the nominator to state what criteria are not met and why. I shall await specific statements, that do not rely on personal opinion, or upon original research. It goes without saying that any specific prose glitches I can and will fix.--] (]) 00:22, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::My view is that the editor who put up this FAR originally wanted to to add "guilt by association" statements about van der Sloot's Peru conviction to the lead in a tone that implied that because he had been convicted of another murder, that he was therefore guilty of this one. This was opposed by other editors due to BLP concerns, WP:SYNTH and WP:UNDUE. (We can make this sort of conjecture off-wiki, but we cannot do so on-wiki) Everything else here is window dressing. When this issue first came up (I think a couple months back), Overagainst's views did not prevail, and so now we have a new round of the same issues. There have been new issues raised and some old issues dredged up, but the bottom line is that many of the major suggested changes would a) add POV to a fairly neutral article, b) Insert SYNTH and go beyond the scope of the source material, c) restate legal concepts improperly. The small amounts of material removed recently about the divorce is not a huge deal and of no particular loss to be removed; and clearly, the lead editors can rephrase a few words if use of "subsequently" or "however" is that huge of a deal. But the article passed FAC, it WAS relatively stable until the latest round of drama, and to my eyes, the current article here today is well-sourced, carefully neutral and does not read like a tabloid or Fox news report. I view myself as relatively neutral on this article, as I have not been a significant contributor to it in any way. <small>] (]) 07:24, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> From others who have popped by to take issue with the article, I fail to see SPECIFIC concerns beyond vague overgeneralized complaints that appear to date back to the original FAC <small>] (]) 07:24, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> ]<sup>]</sup> 07:18, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | ::My view is that the editor who put up this FAR originally wanted to to add "guilt by association" statements about van der Sloot's Peru conviction to the lead in a tone that implied that because he had been convicted of another murder, that he was therefore guilty of this one. This was opposed by other editors due to BLP concerns, WP:SYNTH and WP:UNDUE. (We can make this sort of conjecture off-wiki, but we cannot do so on-wiki) Everything else here is window dressing. When this issue first came up (I think a couple months back), Overagainst's views did not prevail, and so now we have a new round of the same issues. There have been new issues raised and some old issues dredged up, but the bottom line is that many of the major suggested changes would a) add POV to a fairly neutral article, b) Insert SYNTH and go beyond the scope of the source material, c) restate legal concepts improperly. The small amounts of material removed recently about the divorce is not a huge deal and of no particular loss to be removed; and clearly, the lead editors can rephrase a few words if use of "subsequently" or "however" is that huge of a deal. But the article passed FAC, it WAS relatively stable until the latest round of drama, and to my eyes, the current article here today is well-sourced, carefully neutral and does not read like a tabloid or Fox news report. I view myself as relatively neutral on this article, as I have not been a significant contributor to it in any way. <small>] (]) 07:24, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> From others who have popped by to take issue with the article, I fail to see SPECIFIC concerns beyond vague overgeneralized complaints that appear to date back to the original FAC <small>] (]) 07:24, 18 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> ]<sup>]</sup> 07:18, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::I think that above is a fair summary. I blundered badly ''originally''. I am I now to be held to the fire with what I stopped arguing for 3 months ago. | :::I think that above is a fair summary. I blundered badly ''originally''. I am I now to be held to the fire with what I stopped arguing for 3 months ago. | ||
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::::::::Anyone?_] (]) 14:20, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::::::Anyone?_] (]) 14:20, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::Open invitation now for some fresh voices to comment on how they see it at this point.] (]) 16:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::Open invitation now for some fresh voices to comment on how they see it at this point.] (]) 16:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::::::Overagainst, how about you take your own advice here? ]<sup>]</sup> 23:48, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::::::Overagainst, how about you take your own advice here? ]<sup>]</sup> 23:48, 18 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
*I think Overagainst has made some valid points that need to be corrected in the article, otherwise I '''support demotion'''. ] (]) 07:55, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | *I think Overagainst has made some valid points that need to be corrected in the article, otherwise I '''support demotion'''. ] (]) 07:55, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
*'''Keep''' per Montanabw. I'd also like some clarification from Nikkimaria. Has this article been moved into FARC? If not, why are we voting? Given that the majority, here and on the article talk, seem to support the present version, I don't think this proceeding should be advanced in any way.--] (]) 08:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | *'''Keep''' per Montanabw. I'd also like some clarification from Nikkimaria. Has this article been moved into FARC? If not, why are we voting? Given that the majority, here and on the article talk, seem to support the present version, I don't think this proceeding should be advanced in any way.--] (]) 08:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:*It hasn't been moved into FARC. Ideally I'd like to have further opinions from previously uninvolved reviewers before we decide how to proceed - you might consider whether there are any relevant WikiProjects that might be interested, as it appears the nominator didn't notify any. ] (]) 15:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | :*It hasn't been moved into FARC. Ideally I'd like to have further opinions from previously uninvolved reviewers before we decide how to proceed - you might consider whether there are any relevant WikiProjects that might be interested, as it appears the nominator didn't notify any. ] (]) 15:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::* It needs to be moved to FARC. I had vowed to stay uninvolved, but if somebody doesn't do what is supposed to be done here (lay out the problems in the article ''relative to sources'' that have become available since the article was written to sources like FOX news), I may consider doing that work myself. There are many undeveloped areas of this article, because it relied on NEWS and RECENTISM when written. Basically, Dompig's version is what we have, and that hasn't been updated to incorporate views since the NOTNEWS version was written. <p>For example, considering that this alleged "bio" has no "bio" information on Natalee (leaving that out helps promote the trashy gringa POV), but paints Natalee as a promiscuous and drunken young woman who had it coming, why has no one asked what sources say about what the Kalpoe brothers had to say about whether she was drunk when they dropped her off and why they changed their story? There is more of that kind that has not even been dealt with in this article. <p>As another example, relative to the WIAFA requirement for high quality sources, why is this article quoting extensively from the laypress on "Missing white girl syndrome", when there are journal reports available now that cover that aspect? FAs need to be kept up to date.<p>Additionally, as of now, the article is still under enough discussion (on talk and at the BLP noticeboard still), that we cannot claim there are no NPOV disputes or that it is stable. On the other hand, considering the absurdity of the discussion here and elsewhere-- and that no one will just go out and consult sources and use FAR appropriately-- I may decide this is still Not My Job and Not My Problem. The slurs on Natalee's mother (BLP vios) have been mostly removed, so why should I get involved. On a technical note, at least moving it to FARC for more work and eventual !voting might help prevent future reinstatement of the off-topic slurs on Beth Twitty (where no case justifying this notion that they are there because of "no fault divorce" has ever been made). ] (]) 16:17, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | ::* It needs to be moved to FARC. I had vowed to stay uninvolved, but if somebody doesn't do what is supposed to be done here (lay out the problems in the article ''relative to sources'' that have become available since the article was written to sources like FOX news), I may consider doing that work myself. There are many undeveloped areas of this article, because it relied on NEWS and RECENTISM when written. Basically, Dompig's version is what we have, and that hasn't been updated to incorporate views since the NOTNEWS version was written. <p>For example, considering that this alleged "bio" has no "bio" information on Natalee (leaving that out helps promote the trashy gringa POV), but paints Natalee as a promiscuous and drunken young woman who had it coming, why has no one asked what sources say about what the Kalpoe brothers had to say about whether she was drunk when they dropped her off and why they changed their story? There is more of that kind that has not even been dealt with in this article. <p>As another example, relative to the WIAFA requirement for high quality sources, why is this article quoting extensively from the laypress on "Missing white girl syndrome", when there are journal reports available now that cover that aspect? FAs need to be kept up to date.<p>Additionally, as of now, the article is still under enough discussion (on talk and at the BLP noticeboard still), that we cannot claim there are no NPOV disputes or that it is stable. On the other hand, considering the absurdity of the discussion here and elsewhere-- and that no one will just go out and consult sources and use FAR appropriately-- I may decide this is still Not My Job and Not My Problem. The slurs on Natalee's mother (BLP vios) have been mostly removed, so why should I get involved. On a technical note, at least moving it to FARC for more work and eventual !voting might help prevent future reinstatement of the off-topic slurs on Beth Twitty (where no case justifying this notion that they are there because of "no fault divorce" has ever been made). ] (]) 16:17, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
{{od}}You know what Sandy? Just fix it then. <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> While I personally don't read this article as saying Natalee was a "promiscuous and drunken young woman who had it coming" (I do read it as a bunch of kids off the leash misbehaving on Spring Break), let's see if there can be actual improvements here. <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> So then, if we disagree with what you do, (please be aware that there are legal standards of proof that militate against conjecture) that would be a different - and new - discussion. Instead of farting around for months with another dramaboard, as even if the FARC demotes the article, it can't mandate changes, just fix the problem. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:03, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | {{od}}You know what Sandy? Just fix it then. <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> While I personally don't read this article as saying Natalee was a "promiscuous and drunken young woman who had it coming" (I do read it as a bunch of kids off the leash misbehaving on Spring Break), let's see if there can be actual improvements here. <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> So then, if we disagree with what you do, (please be aware that there are legal standards of proof that militate against conjecture) that would be a different - and new - discussion. Instead of farting around for months with another dramaboard, as even if the FARC demotes the article, it can't mandate changes, just fix the problem. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:03, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:: I won't respond to that <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small>. ] (]) 01:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | :: I won't respond to that <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small>. ] (]) 01:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
: As her cite of ] indicated I think Sandy was saying she might reluctantly, spend time looking for non-news sources to draw on for more encyclopedic content. I am a complete novice at this, but I should have been more careful. I want to apologise for the lack of uninvolved reviewers due to me not doing the proper notifications. I agree we need to hear from more uninvolved reviewers before proceeding. I think Talk seems to be working fine, consensus has already been reached for changing the title.] (]) 22:43, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | : As her cite of ] indicated I think Sandy was saying she might reluctantly, spend time looking for non-news sources to draw on for more encyclopedic content. I am a complete novice at this, but I should have been more careful. I want to apologise for the lack of uninvolved reviewers due to me not doing the proper notifications. I agree we need to hear from more uninvolved reviewers before proceeding. I think Talk seems to be working fine, consensus has already been reached for changing the title.] (]) 22:43, 20 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::: No, I am not saying I might "spend time looking for ... sources"; I don't shoot blanks, and I've already looked at sources. I am not the one bringing this FAR. I do not have time for work that in the past has only been reverted. ] (]) 01:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ::: No, I am not saying I might "spend time looking for ... sources"; I don't shoot blanks, and I've already looked at sources. I am not the one bringing this FAR. I do not have time for work that in the past has only been reverted. ] (]) 01:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::Given the number of editors who have weighed in that the article is indeed neutral , is there any reasonable chance of reaching consensus for demotion? This article should not be moved to FARC. <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> At this part of the procedure, the goal should be keeping the article at FAC. We've never even been told what criteria are supposedly not met by this article <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> At this point, this should be closed. Or the coordinator needs to step in again to focus this. <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small>.--] (]) 00:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ::Given the number of editors who have weighed in that the article is indeed neutral , is there any reasonable chance of reaching consensus for demotion? This article should not be moved to FARC. <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> At this part of the procedure, the goal should be keeping the article at FAC. We've never even been told what criteria are supposedly not met by this article <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> At this point, this should be closed. Or the coordinator needs to step in again to focus this. <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small>.--] (]) 00:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::: Of course there is time to reach consensus before demotion (nor is demotion a given). Articles stay at FAR for at least four months these days, and as long as work progresses, FAR typically stays open. Perhaps now the arguing will stop and the work will get underway. I do not have additional sources to offer: I am telling you to look at the abundance of sources you already know about and are not using, or not using completely. If you want another example, let's see: you have one sentence stating that Paulus van der Sloot (Joran's father) was detained. Strange. No explanation for that. Make sense ?? What do sources say about why he was detained? <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> Consult the sources; confine discussion to what they say. ] (]) 01:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ::: Of course there is time to reach consensus before demotion (nor is demotion a given). Articles stay at FAR for at least four months these days, and as long as work progresses, FAR typically stays open. Perhaps now the arguing will stop and the work will get underway. I do not have additional sources to offer: I am telling you to look at the abundance of sources you already know about and are not using, or not using completely. If you want another example, let's see: you have one sentence stating that Paulus van der Sloot (Joran's father) was detained. Strange. No explanation for that. Make sense ?? What do sources say about why he was detained? <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> Consult the sources; confine discussion to what they say. ] (]) 01:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::<small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small>--] (]) 01:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::<small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small>--] (]) 01:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::I am minded to supplement this by saying look, Kww and I are old wikihands. Compromise is the name of the game here. <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> --] (]) 00:42, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ::I am minded to supplement this by saying look, Kww and I are old wikihands. Compromise is the name of the game here. <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> --] (]) 00:42, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::: <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> FARs always have a rough start, but folks eventually get down to work. ] (]) 01:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ::: <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> FARs always have a rough start, but folks eventually get down to work. ] (]) 01:00, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::<small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> The burden is on Overagainst and he has failed to meet that burden. He says we should discount the death by misadventure theory, but where are his sources that say we should disregard it since VDS's conviction in Peru? <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small>--] (]) 01:12, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | :::::<small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> The burden is on Overagainst and he has failed to meet that burden. He says we should discount the death by misadventure theory, but where are his sources that say we should disregard it since VDS's conviction in Peru? <small>] (]) 01:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small>--] (]) 01:12, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
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: Sorry, Nikkimaria, but five years is a long ways back for me, and I can't recall what noticeboards may have been involved-- old dog. There was a FAR initiated right after it ran on the mainpage (raising many of the same issues still present today, and that have been repeatedly raised on talk), but that FAR was closed per instructions on procedural grounds (not to bring a FAR right after TFA). I attempted to work on the article in 2008, and without characterizing what happened then, I haven't returned to the article since. | : Sorry, Nikkimaria, but five years is a long ways back for me, and I can't recall what noticeboards may have been involved-- old dog. There was a FAR initiated right after it ran on the mainpage (raising many of the same issues still present today, and that have been repeatedly raised on talk), but that FAR was closed per instructions on procedural grounds (not to bring a FAR right after TFA). I attempted to work on the article in 2008, and without characterizing what happened then, I haven't returned to the article since. | ||
: '''1a, prose''': the issues I raised above are relatively minor (overuse of however, subsequently), but if new and less newsy sources are consulted, some rewriting will be involved. There is also a (slight) tendency to overquoting which gives the article a tabloid, newsy feel (less than engaging prose-- it is evident it was written from a chronology of news sources available at the time). This can be seen, for example, in the discussion of "Missing white woman syndrome", which really can be summarized to what multiple journal articles published say. And, as I mentioned above and below, there are many gaps in the story-- things that just leave the reader saying, 'Huh'? Like, why was Paulus detained? ] (]) 02:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | : '''1a, prose''': the issues I raised above are relatively minor (overuse of however, subsequently), but if new and less newsy sources are consulted, some rewriting will be involved. There is also a (slight) tendency to overquoting which gives the article a tabloid, newsy feel (less than engaging prose-- it is evident it was written from a chronology of news sources available at the time). This can be seen, for example, in the discussion of "Missing white woman syndrome", which really can be summarized to what multiple journal articles published say. And, as I mentioned above and below, there are many gaps in the story-- things that just leave the reader saying, 'Huh'? Like, why was Paulus detained? ] (]) 02:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
: '''1b, comprehensive''': is a big flaw (perhaps the biggest). Because the article was written when only sources like Fox News and CNN could be relied on, there are numerous gaps. I've given examples above already-- there is more. The parts that aren't covered create POV, because what could be covered when the case was still open was limited. ] (]) 02:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | : '''1b, comprehensive''': is a big flaw (perhaps the biggest). Because the article was written when only sources like Fox News and CNN could be relied on, there are numerous gaps. I've given examples above already-- there is more. The parts that aren't covered create POV, because what could be covered when the case was still open was limited. ] (]) 02:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
: '''1c, well researched''': as I've already said, it was written at a time where it mostly used news sources. There are journal reports that are not used on "Missing white woman syndrome", and there are multiple books that have been published since, but efforts to get those sources included in the article have not succeeded. <p>I am not following the talk page at all (other than seeing the edit summaries that pop on my watchlist), so it is unclear to me if this article is going to move to a "Disappearance" article to make way for a bio article on Natalee, or if they are going to include a bio on Natalee in her current non-bio bio article, but the problem has been that there is no "bio" in this bio, yet no place to put a bio article, which adds to the "drunken promiscuity" notion of who Natalee was. If this is to be the Natalee bio, there needs to be a bio, and it is quite possible to cautiously, and with attribution, make some statements about Natalee the person based on her parents' books. We don’t just leave the bio out of the bio because we don’t want to say anything her parents might have added about her. If this is not to be the Natalee bio (via an article name change), then her bio can be written, and there is room for making some selective statements about the person from her parents' books, with attribution, in her new bio. Otherwise, it would be appropriate for Natalee the person to have a paragraph in this bio.<p> Another book, written by ] (a former writer for the ''New York Times''), is mentioned in the article but not used at all (''Portrait of a Monster: Joran van der Sloot, a Murder in Peru, and the Natalee Holloway Mystery''). Because the authors of that book gained access to information not available when this article was written, it can be used to fill in some gaps in the story and minimize POV, while reducing the newsy/tabloid chronology. Some contributors here may not like the title and may say it contributes bias, but we don't just discount a source because we don't like it: it can be used selectively, with attribution when needed. I have already raised two examples: it says that the Kalpoe brothers recanted their story of Natalee's drunkenness, and it tells how Paulus came to be detained. We cannot just leave out some accounts because we may not like the book title; information from this book can be used carefully, with attribution. It offers what we specifically seek relative to NOTNEWS-- an analysis of the events long after the fact, incorporating information not available during the investigation. ] (]) 02:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | : '''1c, well researched''': as I've already said, it was written at a time where it mostly used news sources. There are journal reports that are not used on "Missing white woman syndrome", and there are multiple books that have been published since, but efforts to get those sources included in the article have not succeeded. <p>I am not following the talk page at all (other than seeing the edit summaries that pop on my watchlist), so it is unclear to me if this article is going to move to a "Disappearance" article to make way for a bio article on Natalee, or if they are going to include a bio on Natalee in her current non-bio bio article, but the problem has been that there is no "bio" in this bio, yet no place to put a bio article, which adds to the "drunken promiscuity" notion of who Natalee was. If this is to be the Natalee bio, there needs to be a bio, and it is quite possible to cautiously, and with attribution, make some statements about Natalee the person based on her parents' books. We don’t just leave the bio out of the bio because we don’t want to say anything her parents might have added about her. If this is not to be the Natalee bio (via an article name change), then her bio can be written, and there is room for making some selective statements about the person from her parents' books, with attribution, in her new bio. Otherwise, it would be appropriate for Natalee the person to have a paragraph in this bio.<p> Another book, written by ] (a former writer for the ''New York Times''), is mentioned in the article but not used at all (''Portrait of a Monster: Joran van der Sloot, a Murder in Peru, and the Natalee Holloway Mystery''). Because the authors of that book gained access to information not available when this article was written, it can be used to fill in some gaps in the story and minimize POV, while reducing the newsy/tabloid chronology. Some contributors here may not like the title and may say it contributes bias, but we don't just discount a source because we don't like it: it can be used selectively, with attribution when needed. I have already raised two examples: it says that the Kalpoe brothers recanted their story of Natalee's drunkenness, and it tells how Paulus came to be detained. We cannot just leave out some accounts because we may not like the book title; information from this book can be used carefully, with attribution. It offers what we specifically seek relative to NOTNEWS-- an analysis of the events long after the fact, incorporating information not available during the investigation. ] (]) 02:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
: '''1d, neutral''': the text that is missing leads to POV (what we sometimes call "cherry picking" of sources, but I am not saying that is what happened here-- just that it is hard to write a neutral story when an investigation is underway and there isn't full access to information that may come out later-- but the result is the same-- we have Dompig's story, unbalanced). <p>The text that was a slur on Beth Twitty (information about her dating life and her divorce, with no reason established for mentioning the mother's divorce while no bio was given for the victim-- the mother's divorce has no bearing on the daughter's death) has, I believe, now all been removed (I haven't checked), so that particular POV/BLP issue is (I believe) finally resolved. A lot could be done to correct the remaining POV by dealing with issues like those I gave as examples. ] (]) 02:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | : '''1d, neutral''': the text that is missing leads to POV (what we sometimes call "cherry picking" of sources, but I am not saying that is what happened here-- just that it is hard to write a neutral story when an investigation is underway and there isn't full access to information that may come out later-- but the result is the same-- we have Dompig's story, unbalanced). <p>The text that was a slur on Beth Twitty (information about her dating life and her divorce, with no reason established for mentioning the mother's divorce while no bio was given for the victim-- the mother's divorce has no bearing on the daughter's death) has, I believe, now all been removed (I haven't checked), so that particular POV/BLP issue is (I believe) finally resolved. A lot could be done to correct the remaining POV by dealing with issues like those I gave as examples. ] (]) 02:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
: '''1e, stable''': <small>] (]) 05:03, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> I haven't followed the talk page at all, or the article closely, so I don't know if that is resolved. <p> I'm assuming that 2 thru 4 are ok, but haven't checked.<p>In summary, I don't think it currently meets any of the 1-level criteria, but neither do I think there is a large chore ahead nor that major changes are needed to get there. But I didn't bring this FAR, I don't have time to help, and if Overagainst wants this work done, then she or he needs to consult those sources and help in the rewrite. I am glad the BLP issues with Natalee's mother are (apparently) resolved, and beyond that, I just do not have time for this article, nor is it high among my Wikipriorities. ] (]) 02:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | : '''1e, stable''': <small>] (]) 05:03, 21 November 2013 (UTC)]</small> I haven't followed the talk page at all, or the article closely, so I don't know if that is resolved. <p> I'm assuming that 2 thru 4 are ok, but haven't checked.<p>In summary, I don't think it currently meets any of the 1-level criteria, but neither do I think there is a large chore ahead nor that major changes are needed to get there. But I didn't bring this FAR, I don't have time to help, and if Overagainst wants this work done, then she or he needs to consult those sources and help in the rewrite. I am glad the BLP issues with Natalee's mother are (apparently) resolved, and beyond that, I just do not have time for this article, nor is it high among my Wikipriorities. ] (]) 02:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
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::No offense, but this is why this is such a difficult matter. We get tens of kilobytes per day every day, stuffing this page and the talk page. It is enough to make a decision possible on the basis of exhaustion. Several editors have declared the article neutral and unbiased. I cannot deal with the endless badgering. Just reading and attempting to reply to Overagainst takes an hour a day. to say nothing of the energy lost which could be usefully employed on improving the encyclopedia. I ask the coordinator to step in to put this thing into some sort of order. We can't go on like this. It's not fair to us. We are attempting to deal in good faith with Overagainst, but the filibustering is impossible.--] (]) 17:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ::No offense, but this is why this is such a difficult matter. We get tens of kilobytes per day every day, stuffing this page and the talk page. It is enough to make a decision possible on the basis of exhaustion. Several editors have declared the article neutral and unbiased. I cannot deal with the endless badgering. Just reading and attempting to reply to Overagainst takes an hour a day. to say nothing of the energy lost which could be usefully employed on improving the encyclopedia. I ask the coordinator to step in to put this thing into some sort of order. We can't go on like this. It's not fair to us. We are attempting to deal in good faith with Overagainst, but the filibustering is impossible.--] (]) 17:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::: I had a long post saying the same thing, which I didn't post for fear it would just be redacted. Overagainst does not understand the purpose of FAR or how to use this page. I am tempted to go to his or her userpage to explain how FAR works, but afraid that will draw me even further into this mess. So basically, yea, I endorse what Wehwalt is saying, and ask that someone explain to Overagainst how the FAR process works, remove a huge portion of this FAR to the talk page of this FAR, and let the editors work on the article in peace. I have attempted to state this in a way that won't result in redaction. Alternately, would Nikkimaria mind if I went to the talk page of this page to explain to Overagainst how FAR works? Actually, I'm not even that sure that others understand the deliberative nature of FAR-- that is, plenty of time is always allowed, and the process is not being used correctly here because of what looks like misunderstanding of the process. Nikkimaria and Dana, specifically: may I post to the talk page of this FAR page a description of how the process works optimally, so that work on the article can get underway without unnecessary verbosity that is overwhelming the page and preventing article work, and then you can redact away if I inadvertently step on someone's toes ? ] (]) 18:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ::: I had a long post saying the same thing, which I didn't post for fear it would just be redacted. Overagainst does not understand the purpose of FAR or how to use this page. I am tempted to go to his or her userpage to explain how FAR works, but afraid that will draw me even further into this mess. So basically, yea, I endorse what Wehwalt is saying, and ask that someone explain to Overagainst how the FAR process works, remove a huge portion of this FAR to the talk page of this FAR, and let the editors work on the article in peace. I have attempted to state this in a way that won't result in redaction. Alternately, would Nikkimaria mind if I went to the talk page of this page to explain to Overagainst how FAR works? Actually, I'm not even that sure that others understand the deliberative nature of FAR-- that is, plenty of time is always allowed, and the process is not being used correctly here because of what looks like misunderstanding of the process. Nikkimaria and Dana, specifically: may I post to the talk page of this FAR page a description of how the process works optimally, so that work on the article can get underway without unnecessary verbosity that is overwhelming the page and preventing article work, and then you can redact away if I inadvertently step on someone's toes ? ] (]) 18:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::Yes, please. ] (]) 18:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::Yes, please. ] (]) 18:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
== Purpose of FAR == | == Purpose of FAR == | ||
Thanks, Nikki. It is not my intent to offend anyone, I apologize in advance if I do, and I have full confidence in Nikkimaria to redact anything she sees fit. It is my good faith attempt at doing the same thing I have done historically at FAR since 2006 (I believe I am still the most active editor on Misplaced Pages of FAR and articles at FAR, I was part of its design and active here at a time when we processed hundreds of FAs through here, and I say that not to appear <whatever> but in hopes that Overagainst will listen to me and that everyone will gain an understanding of how better to use the page.<p> FAR is intended and was set up to be quite intentionally deliberative; we do not remove an article's featured status lightly or without giving the principle editors time to deal with issues raised, and then the broader to community to opine on whether WIAFA is still met. In the past, a typical FAR took about a month (two weeks in the FAR phase, and when needed, another two weeks in the FARC phase.) Because of declining reviewership everywhere on Misplaced Pages, the process has grown more lengthy. Up to four months is not ideal, but neither is it uncommon.<p> FARs may be closed at the FAR phase, they may be advanced to the FARC phase where even more time is allowed, and after more time at FARC if there are still issues, only then are Keep or Remove votes declared. EVEN IF the article moves to FARC, work may still progress. Experienced FAR reviewers understand that it is a deliberative process, rash decisions are not taken, and the editors should be given time to work on issues in peace. FAR reviewers may help in the work needed, but that is not required: the role of FAR is only to determine if WIAFA is or is not met, and that is after considerable deliberation and time to deal with any legitimate issues raised.<p>The page should not be used to revisit talk page content issues, but for a concise description of the issues as they directly relate to ], and Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies. Issues are raised, briefly (1a, 3, 4, etc as relate to WIAFA). Editors are given time to work on the issues. Periodically, brief updates are made to the FAR page (still working on 1a, POV unresolved, most of the work is done but we are cleaning up citations-- things like that) or delegates will query how work is going if they haven't heard anything in a while. I tried to model a sample of how that should be done. Wehwalt indicated he would work on that list; increasing his workload at this juncture is ... how to characterize this so it won't be redacted ... well, not helpful.<p> Revisiting entire content matters on this page does not advance anything. Working out the issues raised on the FAR is best dealt with on article talk, and even then, allowing editors time to work. I am seeing many things on this page that reflect misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages policy and guideline, and those things could be more effectively dealt with on talk, or at different content resolution noticeboards (I see significant misunderstanding here of BLP policy, but who am I to say), and then summarized back to the delegates once they are or are not settled. When the deliberative process is exhausted or in the delegates' opinion(s) things are either stalled, or done, or whatever, then they may be ready to consider Remove or Keep declarations. They are also empowered to close a FAR that isn't, well, FARing. FAR is not dispute resolution; it is for determining if WIAFA is met.<p> Filling up this page with walls of text and constantly new items is not helpful or deliberative.<p> Wehwalt said he was ordering a book, and he hasn't been given the chance even to get the book much less to decide whether and how to use it, much less to work on incorporating some of it if that is decided. The page would be more effective if used appropriately; that is, article work commences, editors are given time to work, and issues are periodically reported back here for the delegates and the broader community to then decide what step is next and if more work is in order, or if "voting" is called for. Many a star has been saved months into a FAR, and the long FARs sometimes occur because there is too much off-topic bickering early on, and before folks settle in to do the work.<p> I also submit that in the interest of kindness, FAR has always allowed for events such as the approaching holiday season, so a lessening of the volume of postings here would be ... well ... not just helpful, but kind. We do not quickly or easily remove a featured article's status. What is happening now is that Wehwalt-- not even having received the book yet-- is being expected to deal with extended commentary both on this page and on the article talk page. I hope this helps; I have no problem with whatever redaction the delegates feel it helpful, because the delegates are tasked with keeping a FAR on track. ] (]) 19:00, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | Thanks, Nikki. It is not my intent to offend anyone, I apologize in advance if I do, and I have full confidence in Nikkimaria to redact anything she sees fit. It is my good faith attempt at doing the same thing I have done historically at FAR since 2006 (I believe I am still the most active editor on Misplaced Pages of FAR and articles at FAR, I was part of its design and active here at a time when we processed hundreds of FAs through here, and I say that not to appear <whatever> but in hopes that Overagainst will listen to me and that everyone will gain an understanding of how better to use the page.<p> FAR is intended and was set up to be quite intentionally deliberative; we do not remove an article's featured status lightly or without giving the principle editors time to deal with issues raised, and then the broader to community to opine on whether WIAFA is still met. In the past, a typical FAR took about a month (two weeks in the FAR phase, and when needed, another two weeks in the FARC phase.) Because of declining reviewership everywhere on Misplaced Pages, the process has grown more lengthy. Up to four months is not ideal, but neither is it uncommon.<p> FARs may be closed at the FAR phase, they may be advanced to the FARC phase where even more time is allowed, and after more time at FARC if there are still issues, only then are Keep or Remove votes declared. EVEN IF the article moves to FARC, work may still progress. Experienced FAR reviewers understand that it is a deliberative process, rash decisions are not taken, and the editors should be given time to work on issues in peace. FAR reviewers may help in the work needed, but that is not required: the role of FAR is only to determine if WIAFA is or is not met, and that is after considerable deliberation and time to deal with any legitimate issues raised.<p>The page should not be used to revisit talk page content issues, but for a concise description of the issues as they directly relate to ], and Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies. Issues are raised, briefly (1a, 3, 4, etc as relate to WIAFA). Editors are given time to work on the issues. Periodically, brief updates are made to the FAR page (still working on 1a, POV unresolved, most of the work is done but we are cleaning up citations-- things like that) or delegates will query how work is going if they haven't heard anything in a while. I tried to model a sample of how that should be done. Wehwalt indicated he would work on that list; increasing his workload at this juncture is ... how to characterize this so it won't be redacted ... well, not helpful.<p> Revisiting entire content matters on this page does not advance anything. Working out the issues raised on the FAR is best dealt with on article talk, and even then, allowing editors time to work. I am seeing many things on this page that reflect misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages policy and guideline, and those things could be more effectively dealt with on talk, or at different content resolution noticeboards (I see significant misunderstanding here of BLP policy, but who am I to say), and then summarized back to the delegates once they are or are not settled. When the deliberative process is exhausted or in the delegates' opinion(s) things are either stalled, or done, or whatever, then they may be ready to consider Remove or Keep declarations. They are also empowered to close a FAR that isn't, well, FARing. FAR is not dispute resolution; it is for determining if WIAFA is met.<p> Filling up this page with walls of text and constantly new items is not helpful or deliberative.<p> Wehwalt said he was ordering a book, and he hasn't been given the chance even to get the book much less to decide whether and how to use it, much less to work on incorporating some of it if that is decided. The page would be more effective if used appropriately; that is, article work commences, editors are given time to work, and issues are periodically reported back here for the delegates and the broader community to then decide what step is next and if more work is in order, or if "voting" is called for. Many a star has been saved months into a FAR, and the long FARs sometimes occur because there is too much off-topic bickering early on, and before folks settle in to do the work.<p> I also submit that in the interest of kindness, FAR has always allowed for events such as the approaching holiday season, so a lessening of the volume of postings here would be ... well ... not just helpful, but kind. We do not quickly or easily remove a featured article's status. What is happening now is that Wehwalt-- not even having received the book yet-- is being expected to deal with extended commentary both on this page and on the article talk page. I hope this helps; I have no problem with whatever redaction the delegates feel it helpful, because the delegates are tasked with keeping a FAR on track. ] (]) 19:00, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::Thank you Sandy, that was very well said and I don't find a thing to disagree with. Let me just put into my own words some of what you said: Overagainst, give us space! Go away and come back in a while. The book is arriving today (Amazon is wonderful) but if you look at my talk page, you'll see people enquiring on peer reviews I'm in the course of doing or suggesting other reviews where I might be helpful. That is important work because we are very short on reviewers. I GET what you are saying about the article. Give me some time to work on it. I don't think we will agree on everything, almost certainly not, but I think what I will do is a lot closer to what we both can live with. The case is, for all intents and proposes, over, and it's possible to take a more historical viewpoint on it that glosses over some of the raw nerves of the day-to-day coverage that we worked on as events exploded around us. Go take a break. We'll still be here when you come back.--] (]) 19:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ::Thank you Sandy, that was very well said and I don't find a thing to disagree with. Let me just put into my own words some of what you said: Overagainst, give us space! Go away and come back in a while. The book is arriving today (Amazon is wonderful) but if you look at my talk page, you'll see people enquiring on peer reviews I'm in the course of doing or suggesting other reviews where I might be helpful. That is important work because we are very short on reviewers. I GET what you are saying about the article. Give me some time to work on it. I don't think we will agree on everything, almost certainly not, but I think what I will do is a lot closer to what we both can live with. The case is, for all intents and proposes, over, and it's possible to take a more historical viewpoint on it that glosses over some of the raw nerves of the day-to-day coverage that we worked on as events exploded around us. Go take a break. We'll still be here when you come back.--] (]) 19:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::: And I left all those typos so we wouldn't edit conflict! ] (]) 19:06, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ::: And I left all those typos so we wouldn't edit conflict! ] (]) 19:06, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::: I like it, typos and all, Sandy!--] (]) 19:11, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | :::: I like it, typos and all, Sandy!--] (]) 19:11, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::: Well, I don't-- they are embarrassing. I will come back when I'm sure there will no edit conflicts and fix them. Happy holidays to all, ] (]) 19:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::: Well, I don't-- they are embarrassing. I will come back when I'm sure there will no edit conflicts and fix them. Happy holidays to all, ] (]) 19:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
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::::::::Registrant Country: US | ::::::::Registrant Country: US | ||
::::::::Registrant Phone: 1.9729911202</blockquote> | ::::::::Registrant Phone: 1.9729911202</blockquote> | ||
::::::: A doesn't look good. I can't figure how that is not a basic violation of ]. ] (]) 20:20, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ::::::: A doesn't look good. I can't figure how that is not a basic violation of ]. ] (]) 20:20, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ||
::Sorry, that's not the point. It's that the same three editors: Overagainst, MastCell, and Anthonyhcole, are acting to not allow discussion but to get their way. That makes this FAR at the point of a gun as if anything happens that they don't like, they will allege BLP and push to get their way. Anthonyhcole just removed the material when few people have had a chance to comment, and he cannot be said to be neutral. This FAR is being used as a hammer. I have the book, but there's no possible work I could do like this.--] (]) 20:31, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | ::Sorry, that's not the point. It's that the same three editors: Overagainst, MastCell, and Anthonyhcole, are acting to not allow discussion but to get their way. That makes this FAR at the point of a gun as if anything happens that they don't like, they will allege BLP and push to get their way. Anthonyhcole just removed the material when few people have had a chance to comment, and he cannot be said to be neutral. This FAR is being used as a hammer. I have the book, but there's no possible work I could do like this.--] (]) 20:31, 22 November 2013 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 23:50, 19 April 2022
Moved from review
Extended content |
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I am nominating this featured article for review because the article contains too much opinion about the subject's living mother's alleged misleading statements in her publicity campaign in the aftermath of her daughter's disappearance, From the top, it links the words 'media sensation' to the page on sensationalism. The link is a way of surreptitiously stating an opinion in WP's voice. The lead names 3 living persons, namely Van der Sloot and the Kalpoes brothers as suspects ('released for lack of evidence') for something they have never even been tried for. Yet the lead does not mention that Van der Sloot was convicted of murdering a young woman in Peru 5 years later. The mother's 2006 divorce should not be 'Background' on a girl who disappeared in 2005; the Disappearance section names living people as part of a group and a police chief is quoted as alleging that the same group engaged in "'wild partying, a lot of drinking, lots of room switching every night'". The Disappearance section does not mention that Dompig, the policeman who is quoted about the Natalee Holloway and her group were drinking all the time, said publicly as early as March 2006 that the investigators had concluded that Natalee had probably O.D.ed and had not been murdered. There is a lot of argumentative counterpoint on Natalee Holloway's mother's complaints about the Aruban investigation, but those complaints appear very differently in the light of what Dompig said about Natalee's death not being murder. Much further down the long 'Continued search, suspects rearrested and released again' subsection does have Dompigs OD theory but it's too hard to find. So the 2006 statements by Dompig about alleged heavy drinking are disconnected from the the relevant theory. It seems they are just there to bring Natalee Holloway's character in. as I understand it the word 'denied' is not recommended for responses to accusations as they are about alleged drug use by Holloway. Overagainst (talk) 19:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Might I suggest that you all stop arguing over details, and engage WP:WIAFA? This article is not neutral, it is not stable, and it does not reflect a survey of high quality sources. It has not been updated since it was written to sources like Fox News. Perhaps a review of better sources will be a better use of time here, since there are ample examples of why the poor sourcing in this article leads to a lack of comprehensiveness and POV. I have done that work, but am uninterested in this ongoing POV battle. Those of you care, go out and do the research and make the case. And will someone please fix the overuse of however and subsequently (10 each as of now), hallmarks of pedestrian and redundant prose? See here and here for discussions of the overuse of however. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:08, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Delegate note - enough. We're here to discuss whether this article does or does not meet WP:WIAFA. I've removed several comments above that are not directed towards that goal. Any and all other matters should be dealt with at an appropriate forum, not here (noting the current discussion at BLPN). Personal commentary posted here from this point forward will be removed. What would be most helpful at this point would be for a few people not involved in previous discussions regarding this article to weigh in on whether it meets WIAFA, and for those already involved to deal with the criteria rather than previous disputes or personalities. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Delegate comment - I realize people are getting frustrated with this review, but the personal commentary needs to go if this is to go anywhere, as it's making it even more difficult to get a clear picture of what are real issues versus what are interpersonal disputes that belong elsewhere. I have two questions for those previously involved with this article. First, has this article since its promotion been the subject of noticeboard posts other than the recent thread at BLPN? I checked quickly and didn't see any; if there were, links would be helpful (content noticeboards only, not AN/ANI). Second, can you briefly describe any efforts made to update/improve sourcing since the FAC? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:35, 21 November 2013 (UTC) link
page break for ease of editing
Sandy, my complaints were the BLP violations in the 2006 divorce and dating (both of which were taken off by others), and the innuedo about Natalee. I still have not got a single thing removed, though there is a little movement now. Sorry if I seemed to advocate a complete re-write and then left it all up in the air. In fact I wasn't asking for it to get a re-write, I have no problem if you or anyone wants to try that. I think the use of words like 'however' is not the problem. IMO it's the argumentative tone in counterpoint to Beth Holloway that those words are used in, and the lack of encyclopedic condensing of all those news stories that are cluttering tha article. Like the ones about bones that turned out to be nothing to do with the case. The whole thing needs to be pared down in the latter sections.Overagainst (talk) 19:40, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
|
- No offense, but this is why this is such a difficult matter. We get tens of kilobytes per day every day, stuffing this page and the talk page. It is enough to make a decision possible on the basis of exhaustion. Several editors have declared the article neutral and unbiased. I cannot deal with the endless badgering. Just reading and attempting to reply to Overagainst takes an hour a day. to say nothing of the energy lost which could be usefully employed on improving the encyclopedia. I ask the coordinator to step in to put this thing into some sort of order. We can't go on like this. It's not fair to us. We are attempting to deal in good faith with Overagainst, but the filibustering is impossible.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- I had a long post saying the same thing, which I didn't post for fear it would just be redacted. Overagainst does not understand the purpose of FAR or how to use this page. I am tempted to go to his or her userpage to explain how FAR works, but afraid that will draw me even further into this mess. So basically, yea, I endorse what Wehwalt is saying, and ask that someone explain to Overagainst how the FAR process works, remove a huge portion of this FAR to the talk page of this FAR, and let the editors work on the article in peace. I have attempted to state this in a way that won't result in redaction. Alternately, would Nikkimaria mind if I went to the talk page of this page to explain to Overagainst how FAR works? Actually, I'm not even that sure that others understand the deliberative nature of FAR-- that is, plenty of time is always allowed, and the process is not being used correctly here because of what looks like misunderstanding of the process. Nikkimaria and Dana, specifically: may I post to the talk page of this FAR page a description of how the process works optimally, so that work on the article can get underway without unnecessary verbosity that is overwhelming the page and preventing article work, and then you can redact away if I inadvertently step on someone's toes ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, please. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- I had a long post saying the same thing, which I didn't post for fear it would just be redacted. Overagainst does not understand the purpose of FAR or how to use this page. I am tempted to go to his or her userpage to explain how FAR works, but afraid that will draw me even further into this mess. So basically, yea, I endorse what Wehwalt is saying, and ask that someone explain to Overagainst how the FAR process works, remove a huge portion of this FAR to the talk page of this FAR, and let the editors work on the article in peace. I have attempted to state this in a way that won't result in redaction. Alternately, would Nikkimaria mind if I went to the talk page of this page to explain to Overagainst how FAR works? Actually, I'm not even that sure that others understand the deliberative nature of FAR-- that is, plenty of time is always allowed, and the process is not being used correctly here because of what looks like misunderstanding of the process. Nikkimaria and Dana, specifically: may I post to the talk page of this FAR page a description of how the process works optimally, so that work on the article can get underway without unnecessary verbosity that is overwhelming the page and preventing article work, and then you can redact away if I inadvertently step on someone's toes ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- No offense, but this is why this is such a difficult matter. We get tens of kilobytes per day every day, stuffing this page and the talk page. It is enough to make a decision possible on the basis of exhaustion. Several editors have declared the article neutral and unbiased. I cannot deal with the endless badgering. Just reading and attempting to reply to Overagainst takes an hour a day. to say nothing of the energy lost which could be usefully employed on improving the encyclopedia. I ask the coordinator to step in to put this thing into some sort of order. We can't go on like this. It's not fair to us. We are attempting to deal in good faith with Overagainst, but the filibustering is impossible.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Purpose of FAR
Thanks, Nikki. It is not my intent to offend anyone, I apologize in advance if I do, and I have full confidence in Nikkimaria to redact anything she sees fit. It is my good faith attempt at doing the same thing I have done historically at FAR since 2006 (I believe I am still the most active editor on Misplaced Pages of FAR and articles at FAR, I was part of its design and active here at a time when we processed hundreds of FAs through here, and I say that not to appear <whatever> but in hopes that Overagainst will listen to me and that everyone will gain an understanding of how better to use the page.
FAR is intended and was set up to be quite intentionally deliberative; we do not remove an article's featured status lightly or without giving the principle editors time to deal with issues raised, and then the broader to community to opine on whether WIAFA is still met. In the past, a typical FAR took about a month (two weeks in the FAR phase, and when needed, another two weeks in the FARC phase.) Because of declining reviewership everywhere on Misplaced Pages, the process has grown more lengthy. Up to four months is not ideal, but neither is it uncommon.
FARs may be closed at the FAR phase, they may be advanced to the FARC phase where even more time is allowed, and after more time at FARC if there are still issues, only then are Keep or Remove votes declared. EVEN IF the article moves to FARC, work may still progress. Experienced FAR reviewers understand that it is a deliberative process, rash decisions are not taken, and the editors should be given time to work on issues in peace. FAR reviewers may help in the work needed, but that is not required: the role of FAR is only to determine if WIAFA is or is not met, and that is after considerable deliberation and time to deal with any legitimate issues raised.
The page should not be used to revisit talk page content issues, but for a concise description of the issues as they directly relate to WP:WIAFA, and Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies. Issues are raised, briefly (1a, 3, 4, etc as relate to WIAFA). Editors are given time to work on the issues. Periodically, brief updates are made to the FAR page (still working on 1a, POV unresolved, most of the work is done but we are cleaning up citations-- things like that) or delegates will query how work is going if they haven't heard anything in a while. I tried to model a sample of how that should be done. Wehwalt indicated he would work on that list; increasing his workload at this juncture is ... how to characterize this so it won't be redacted ... well, not helpful.
Revisiting entire content matters on this page does not advance anything. Working out the issues raised on the FAR is best dealt with on article talk, and even then, allowing editors time to work. I am seeing many things on this page that reflect misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages policy and guideline, and those things could be more effectively dealt with on talk, or at different content resolution noticeboards (I see significant misunderstanding here of BLP policy, but who am I to say), and then summarized back to the delegates once they are or are not settled. When the deliberative process is exhausted or in the delegates' opinion(s) things are either stalled, or done, or whatever, then they may be ready to consider Remove or Keep declarations. They are also empowered to close a FAR that isn't, well, FARing. FAR is not dispute resolution; it is for determining if WIAFA is met.
Filling up this page with walls of text and constantly new items is not helpful or deliberative.
Wehwalt said he was ordering a book, and he hasn't been given the chance even to get the book much less to decide whether and how to use it, much less to work on incorporating some of it if that is decided. The page would be more effective if used appropriately; that is, article work commences, editors are given time to work, and issues are periodically reported back here for the delegates and the broader community to then decide what step is next and if more work is in order, or if "voting" is called for. Many a star has been saved months into a FAR, and the long FARs sometimes occur because there is too much off-topic bickering early on, and before folks settle in to do the work.
I also submit that in the interest of kindness, FAR has always allowed for events such as the approaching holiday season, so a lessening of the volume of postings here would be ... well ... not just helpful, but kind. We do not quickly or easily remove a featured article's status. What is happening now is that Wehwalt-- not even having received the book yet-- is being expected to deal with extended commentary both on this page and on the article talk page. I hope this helps; I have no problem with whatever redaction the delegates feel it helpful, because the delegates are tasked with keeping a FAR on track. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:00, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you Sandy, that was very well said and I don't find a thing to disagree with. Let me just put into my own words some of what you said: Overagainst, give us space! Go away and come back in a while. The book is arriving today (Amazon is wonderful) but if you look at my talk page, you'll see people enquiring on peer reviews I'm in the course of doing or suggesting other reviews where I might be helpful. That is important work because we are very short on reviewers. I GET what you are saying about the article. Give me some time to work on it. I don't think we will agree on everything, almost certainly not, but I think what I will do is a lot closer to what we both can live with. The case is, for all intents and proposes, over, and it's possible to take a more historical viewpoint on it that glosses over some of the raw nerves of the day-to-day coverage that we worked on as events exploded around us. Go take a break. We'll still be here when you come back.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- And I left all those typos so we wouldn't edit conflict! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- I like it, typos and all, Sandy!--Wehwalt (talk) 19:11, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, I don't-- they are embarrassing. I will come back when I'm sure there will no edit conflicts and fix them. Happy holidays to all, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- I like it, typos and all, Sandy!--Wehwalt (talk) 19:11, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- And I left all those typos so we wouldn't edit conflict! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you Sandy, that was very well said and I don't find a thing to disagree with. Let me just put into my own words some of what you said: Overagainst, give us space! Go away and come back in a while. The book is arriving today (Amazon is wonderful) but if you look at my talk page, you'll see people enquiring on peer reviews I'm in the course of doing or suggesting other reviews where I might be helpful. That is important work because we are very short on reviewers. I GET what you are saying about the article. Give me some time to work on it. I don't think we will agree on everything, almost certainly not, but I think what I will do is a lot closer to what we both can live with. The case is, for all intents and proposes, over, and it's possible to take a more historical viewpoint on it that glosses over some of the raw nerves of the day-to-day coverage that we worked on as events exploded around us. Go take a break. We'll still be here when you come back.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
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- And to you.
- Judging by the latest Overagainst matter, spread from talk page to FAR by MastCell, we're not going to be allowed leisure to make an attempt to deal with Sandy's comments, but we will be subject to interventions to get ways. I question the continuation of this FAR. There has never been meaningful talk page discussion, which is supposed to be a prerequisite to an FAR. Overagainst's walls of text don't count, because they were not made in a way we could engage with.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:13, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps part of my message above wasn't clear; listing the issues here on the FAR is always appropriate. It's the extended discussion of them that becomes a problem. I haven't looked at the article talk page, but I did click on the link just now, and I have a hard time imagining any justification for that link in any article. Who is this guy (domain name lookup)?
- Registrant Name: Bret Redman
- Registrant Organization: Bret Redman Enterprises
- Registrant Street: PO box 2426
- Registrant City: Venice
- Registrant State/Province: CA
- Registrant Postal Code: 90291
- Registrant Country: US
- Registrant Phone: 1.9729911202
- Perhaps part of my message above wasn't clear; listing the issues here on the FAR is always appropriate. It's the extended discussion of them that becomes a problem. I haven't looked at the article talk page, but I did click on the link just now, and I have a hard time imagining any justification for that link in any article. Who is this guy (domain name lookup)?
- A google search on him doesn't look good. I can't figure how that is not a basic violation of WP:EL. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:20, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, that's not the point. It's that the same three editors: Overagainst, MastCell, and Anthonyhcole, are acting to not allow discussion but to get their way. That makes this FAR at the point of a gun as if anything happens that they don't like, they will allege BLP and push to get their way. Anthonyhcole just removed the material when few people have had a chance to comment, and he cannot be said to be neutral. This FAR is being used as a hammer. I have the book, but there's no possible work I could do like this.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:31, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
On hold
Review on hold for three months . Nikkimaria (talk) 00:05, 23 November 2013 (UTC)