Talk:Koch network: Difference between revisions

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	== ] ==		== Total whitewash ==

			:''...Stand Together, a nonprofit focused on supporting community groups. The stated priorities of the restructured Koch network include efforts aimed at increasing employment, addressing poverty and addiction, ensuring excellent education, building a stronger economy, and bridging divides and building respect.''

			Bullshit. They are actively funding efforts against all of those things. This kind of propaganda should not be allowed in the lead section. ] (]) 23:52, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

			== Charles Koch Institute funding of AstroTurf organization opposing mask mandates in schools ==

			I posted this in "Political activities of the Koch brothers" under the "COVID-19" subhead. It is sourced to the Washington Post and a letter that newspaper obtained from the outfit to which the Charles Koch Institute is a "major benefactor." See https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/10/01/masks-schools-koch-money/:

			The Charles Koch Institute is a "major benefactor" of the Independent Women’s Forum, a dark money nonprofit organization that opposes efforts to combat the coronavirus through mask mandates in schools. The group circulated a template letter to its members encouraging them to personalize and mail it to "your own school superintendents and administrators, principals, and teachers!" Among other things the proposed letter falsely asserted that "young kids do not significantly spread COVID either" and claimed that "common sense" teaches that requiring masks in school may lead to anxiety, depression, decreases in socialization skills, and increases in tooth decay in children.

			User William M. Connolley asserts flimsy dubious for erasing it, claiming that it is not NPOV, i.e. "NPOV; your desc doesn't tally with our article on them. And the material seems to mostly belong there, rather than here" I have no idea what he means by "our article" and his statement that the sourced material "seems to mostly belong there, rather than here" makes no sense. If he has a problem with the neutrality of the entry, he should suggest revisions, not simply lop it off. I will revert if he doesn't respond in a constructive way. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	I don't see the relevance of the chain of "donations" noted, even if they were adequately sourced:

			In an effort to be responsive to User William M. Connolley's remarks, I have edited the entry as follows:
	*Charles Koch (now) chairs the "Knowledge and Progress Fund". (probably )
	*The "Knowledge and Progress Fund" has "given more than $3.2 million in recent years to DonorsTrust".
	*DonorsTrust gave nearly $7.7 million to the ] in 2010. (blog entry ''hosted'' at ])
	* (not in this article) David Koch chairman of AfPF.

			"The Charles Koch Institute is a "major benefactor" of the Independent Women’s Forum, a nonprofit organization that opposes efforts to combat the coronavirus through mask mandates in schools. The group circulated a template letter to its members encouraging them to personalize and mail it to "your own school superintendents and administrators, principals, and teachers!" Among other things the proposed letter asserted that "young kids do not significantly spread COVID either" and claimed that "common sense" teaches that requiring masks in school may lead to anxiety, depression, decreases in socialization skills, and increases in tooth decay in children."
	and the unsourced: "DonorsTrust provides funding to a variety of conservative political advocacy groups and groups that support climate change denial. "

	I ~~don't~~ ~~see~~ ~~how~~ ~~any~~ ~~combination~~ of ~~these~~ ~~statements~~ is ~~helpful~~ ~~for~~ ~~''this''~~ ~~article, even if there isn't an implied synthesis in combining facts to create a connection~~. — ] ] 18:26, 3 ~~April~~ ~~2013~~ (UTC)		The citations are to the Washington Post and a letter posted by the newspaper.] (]) 17:30, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

			==To add to article==
	:The climate change denial connection I would agree is tenuous and synthesized. The Donors Trust connection is neither, given that we have multiple sources which connect it as an indirect beneficiary of Koch funds. ] (]) 18:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
			To add to this article: mention of the Koch brothers's political data analytics company called ]. ] (]) 02:35, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

			== Content dispute ==
	:<s>The content is relevant in that it relates to well documented funding of climate change deniers by the Koch brothers, via various shell organizations that they use to distance themselves from the stink. Forbes (blog or otherwise) is certainly a reliable source for this, and the author of that article makes the connection, so synthesis is not required by us. The other source, corroborates the Koch contributions to DonorsTrust, mentioning that they are DonorTrust's largest contributor

			{{Ping\|William M. Connolley}}{{Ping\|172.110.60.4}}{{Ping\|JPxG}} I'm opening this discussion because I think all of you made good points in your edit summaries but we aren't supposed to converse through edit summaries we're supposed to converse on the talk page. The IP stated when they added the text "John Birch Society mention added, given the significance and relevance to political activities" which at first glance appears odd given there being no mention of the John Birch Society in the body. JPxG countered with "not providing a reliable source (WP:CITE, WP:RS)" which is very reasonable given that it does not appear in the current body. The IP replied "Misplaced Pages is the "reliable source" for Fred Koch being a co-founder of John Birch Society" which I believe is a misunderstanding of the relevant policy. William M. Connolley reverted with the edit summary "this is the koch bros article, not the sins-of-the-fathers-unto-the-7th-generation article" which touched on none of the reasons JPxG brought up nor did it provide any basis in policy or guideline for the summary, this appears to just be their personal opinion. The IP countered with "Fred Koch's co-founding of the John Birch Society is relevant, given that son Charles Koch was also a member. This is an article about the politics (!) of the Koch brothers, and failing to mention to the connection to the John Birch Society would be to hide relevant factual information." which despite their previous misunderstanding of policy does actually appear to be a nearly infallible ] argument. William M. Connolley ends with "as before: no, this is about the sons" which is again bizarrely wrong and besides the point but no matter because the revert was legit. Now here's my problem, when I search "John Birch Society" I actually find it in the sources, we appear to already have a number of sources specifically for this claim, however it appears to have been scrubbed from the article. I will delve into the history on this but interested in hearing what you guys think, I'd especially like to hear more of Connolley's rationale for non-inclusion about info about the father of the brothers. I've just never heard anyone make an argument like that and if it has any basis in policy or guideline I'd like to know because I sure as heck can't think of any. ] (]) 16:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
	:This article is about the Koch brothers using their massive financial resources to manipulate the political landscape in the US. It's not a new story, but it is one that is rife with new revelations, some of which we must include in this article to portray the subject in a complete and objective manner.</s> - ]] 19:00, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
	::I'm retracting my above comments. On closer reading of the sources, there is not a connection established between Koch contributions and climate change denial, which would in fact make this content original research. - ]] 19:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

			Looking at the history we mentioned their dad's founding position at JBS for years, which is why we still have sources with quotes specifically for it. Will try to find the edit which removed it. ] (]) 16:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
	:::My mistake above; we do have a source (cited in the ] article) for the association of ''that'' organization with climate change denial. However, a Koch chairing (but not necessarily funding) the "Knowledge and Progress Fund" which donates to DonorsTrust which donates to AfPF (which is also chaired by a Koch) does not create a connection between the Kochs and climate change, and only minimally connects the Kochs to DonorsTrust. There may be other connections between the Kochs and DonorsTrust, but I don't see what we have here as adequate, unless we establish that either K&PF is a major funder of DonorsTrust or DonorsTrust is a major funder of AfPF. That it is a major funder needs to be established by a ''single'' source, not separate sources for the amount that A funds B and for the total funding of B (or total donations of A). — ] ] 02:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
	:::I also want to assert I have no idea who may have posted as {{user\|97.182.165.176}}; I'm not sure the ''entire'' paragraph should have been deleted, but I'm not going to violate 3RR by deleting and restoring the same material.... — ] ] 02:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

			So it was removed in this edit with the edit summary "ALL articles mentioning living people are subject to that policy - in the case at hand, the material is NOT RELEVANT to this article - period." despite the second source being a New Yorker article entitled "Covert Operations: The billionaire brothers who are waging a war against Obama" which would mean that it was relevant to this article... Period. Perhaps {{Ping\| Collect}} can explain? ] (]) 16:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
	== Public Television ==

			I did the initial revert while using ], so didn't have the chance to look deep into article history, but I think that (barring some other consensus or precedent) William's reasoning makes sense -- the article is about the guys, not their father. That's not to say that information on their family background should be excised completely. Upon some reflecton, it certainly seems UNDUE in the lead, though I can't speak to the rest of the article. ''']'''×''']''' 17:46, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
	I fail to understand how this fits in this article. This article is about the ''political activities'' of the Koch brothers. There is no political activity mentioned in this section. They take no action at all. PBS executives, apparently protective of their donors, make calls to a vendor. Thats the only activity. No activity from the Kochs at all. Perhaps this could be in the relevant BLP.] (]) 12:32, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
	:I agree -- that section was POV and argumentative entirely, and not related to the topic of the article. ] (]) 12:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
	::I would actually add this section to PBS or New York Public Television articles. They are the active players in this section.] (]) 13:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
	:::Possibly -- but not in ''this'' article. I would also note that since Mayer already has a section in this article, that adding ''more'' sections for her specific opinions is UNDUE per ] as well. ] (]) 15:09, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
	::::I've restored some of the removed content, as it seem very relevant to the subject and adequately sourced. The Mayer material is not really the same as in the criticism section (which really should not be a separate section). I would note that this article is not so narrow in scope that we should take a literal approach of every word being an "activity." To do so would be fairly absurd and unfair to our readers who would benefit from appropriate context. - ]] 17:55, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
	::::::This article is very heavily reliant on the one author, hence UNDUE hits hard. Would you have us reprint her entire article? ] (]) 18:03, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Much of the Koch articles should be moved to "Meyer's opinions about the Kochs" and removed from the main articles. That being said, this section is not duplicative, but should possibly be moved to the Meyers subsection. — ] ] 18:25, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
	:The Koch Brothers' contributions to PBS are charitable rather than political activities. That should be clear from the programs they have supported. Even if they opposed a documentary about themselves, that cannot be seen as a political act. ] (]) 18:21, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::I see no reason to include the PBS text in this article. Let's be clear. Some nonprofits may change their activities to avoid losing key donors. Some donors might contribute to some nonprofits for that reason, so it is a possibility for any donor or any nonprofit. But clearly, there is no RS which states that this has occurred or that it is the Kochs' intention. The inclusion of this material in the current article is massive SYNTH and should be removed from the article. ]] 14:35, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

			== The article links contraception with abortion -- no source ==
	== Anthropogenic references? ==

			It should seem obvious that opposition to contraception is not significant political movement & that the linking of that with opposing baby-murder is a propagandistic crock. But at any rate, the linking done in the article was deleted on the grounds that it had no source, and the closest citation to this (citation to a previous sentence) did not evidence the word contraception at all when searched. (] (]) 18:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC))
	reverting of removal of unsourced adjective "anthropogenic." I can guess what that means, but I'm sure most people cannot and I didn't see any source in the whole section explaining it, not to mentioning saying that the Koch's themselves supported it. Even ]'s article only mentions the word once in the publications list, so who would even know if he uses it? Let's put up a section tag for additional references til someone finds one. Thanks. ''] - <small>]</small> 02:56, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

			== Requested move 21 December 2023 ==
	== Freedom Partners ==
			<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
			:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

			The result of the move request was: '''moved'''. ] <small>(])</small> ] (]) 06:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
	So there is a new attempt to try and attack the Koch Brothers. However, none of the articles tied to the Freedom Partners states that the Koch Brothers are directly involved with Freedom Partners. I realize that there are ongoing attempts to try and make the Koch Brothers look like bogymen, but these guilt by association attacks are not appropriate for WP. Furthermore, just because some clearly biased journalist are trying to link the Brothers directly to the group does not mean that they are. ] (]) 14:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
			----
	:Alleged editor's motive aside, the Koch's fund and influence the Freedom Partners. In fact, they even disclosed it. You may want to read the source articles to better understand how the political activities of the Koch brothers include their involvement with this organization, and the research done by Politico et al that connects Koch's "dark money" with FP. I don't understand why one would assume that the Koch's being involved with Freedom Partners is necessarily a negative. Check out their website . - ]] 15:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
	::I did read the articles, none make a direct link between the Koch Brothers. They certainly try to make the link with the Political article implying a nefarious action by the Koch's. Without some RS's that actually state with some evidence that they are actively directing this group, it is out of scope for this article. This article is about ''their'' activities, not the activities that others claim that they are linked. ] (]) 21:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
	:::{{tq\|"...none make a direct link between the Koch Brothers."}} I'm sorry, but that's absurd. See the quotes below.
	:::There is no ] policy that supports idea that the Koch's funding of political organizations via another organization is outside of the scope of an article about Political activities of the Koch brothers. Here are some direct quotes from our sources:
	:::*
	:::*
	:::*
	:::*
	:::*
	:::*
	:::- ]] 22:15, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

	:The Koch Industries website has a page about Freedom Partners. Reliable sources say that it is funded by the Koch brothers and supports U.S. conservative causes. I do not see anything wrong with mentioning their involvement. ] (]) 22:18, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

			] → {{no redirect\|Koch network}} – The current ] is the "Koch network", this should be the title as well. ] (]) 09:35, 21 December 2023 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' ] (]) 08:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)</small>
	::From the Political article. "Koch-linked entities provided a “minority” of the funds and that the largest single donor gave about $25 million." The fact is that the donors are private. I realize that several liberal outlets are trying to make the link and trying to make it as nefarious as possible at the same time. If it truly is a political activity of the Koch's than simply find a source that ]'s it. As such, all it is, are allegations that it is funded by the brothers. Without ], a cornerstone of WP there is no way to include it as is. Additionally, the section is written about what Freedom Partners has done and is written like a ]. ] (]) 22:29, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
	:::Arzel, none of your comments has any bearing on whether or not the edit is accurate and should be included. ] (]) 22:38, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
	::::I agree. The material is well-cited, relevant, and appropriate. ] (]) 01:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
	:::::So you both agree that ] does not matter for this. ] (]) 15:36, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

			:I'm inclined to support because I think it is a well established term and reasonably recognizability, but many of the results are about a math concept. However, the math concept does not seem to have a wikiarticle yet. (] · ]) ''']''' 03:28, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
	== Problem with the term "Dark Money" ==
	I ~~got~~ ~~reverted~~ ~~for~~ ~~using~~ the ~~term~~ ]. Is ~~there~~ a ~~more~~ ~~precise~~ ~~term~~ to ~~describe~~ ~~this?~~ ] (]) 16:31, 3 December ~~2013~~ (UTC)		::I'd argue that this is the ] when moved, so then the math subject need parenthesis disambiguation when added to Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 17:13, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	:No, this is the correct term. ] (]) 23:56, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
	::The dark money article says it is a slang term. See ]. And the article itself is POV laden. The scare quotes only makes the POV problem worse. Maybe correct in some people's opinion, but that is not how we write WP articles. – ] (]) 02:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::According to our article, ] which runs the website is nonpartisan and independent. Looks like they're mostly reporting numerical facts about campaign spending - see for example. What specifically do you find POV in the article? If there's objection to the term "dark money" I suggest we reword the sentence to read: "At least one fourth of the contributions in the 2012 election campaign that were unreported until after the election, were made by groups associated with the Koch brothers", or something along those lines. ] (]) 23:00, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::It's the term '']'' that is the problem. The article goes beyond defining the term ''as slang'' and includes statements like "Yet despite disclosure rules...", "a ... court ruled that all groups spending money.... However, this ruling was overturned on appeal." "Theory of Required Disclosure". etc. Such information belongs in ] and ]. And once that is properly done, then this article can benefit from using the terms. But slang is not acceptable. – ] (]) 23:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Isn't the correct term "soft money?" ] (]) 04:33, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Well, the source says "dark", but WP does not use slang. Given that "dark money" has so much POV built in, we should stay away from this source; otherwise, we are misquoting the source. ''But'', there must be other, quality sources that lay out how much cash they've bestowed on arts, medicine, education, and, oh yes, politics. Indeed, would we use the term "dark money" to describe their non-political donations? I don't think so. – ] (]) 04:43, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::We are not "misquoting the source" – ] requires us to reformulate what the source says, in our own words. Slang or otherwise, "dark money" is a commonly used explicable term – and no, it doesn't include any of the philanthropy you enumerated, it refers to electioneering. I've changed the article to paraphrase the source without using the term "dark money", and anyone is free to improve upon it. If you want to contest the source, ] is thataway. ] (]) 08:23, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::We have to be careful here. Is dark money the same thing as soft money? ] (]) 08:31, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::No, they are not the same thing. Soft money describes contributions made to ''political parties'' for "party building" activities. ] (]) 10:07, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::I realize that the Koch's make a good target for the left, but it gets a little tiring to see people continuously attack them here. I would remind you both that this article is about the Koch brothers. Not about what some other groups that have some links to them do. ] (]) 15:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::If your "you both" comment was directed at me, I take offense at you characterizing me as part of "the left" – if you were to examine my voting history you'd see that's far from the case. I'm not "attacking" the Kochs or anyone else – just trying to address the objections by some editors to the use of the term "dark money". ] (]) 19:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Soft money was unlimited "nonfederal money" from corporations, unions, and individuals that they could contribute to political parties for activities intended to influence state or local elections. Dark money is an epitath and new slang. ] (]) 15:50, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Another minor aspect of the sourcing problem stems from the fact that it is an OpenSecrets''blog'' comment. Yes, Maguire is an investigator with ], but is he giving us news ''or'' analysis? – ] (]) 19:52, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Probably analysis. ] (]) 19:59, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::Can we be at all sure that it's not commentary? — ] ] 04:11, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
	===OpenSecrets===
	I don't see this as a minor issue either. I suggest that the Center for Responsive Politics, an advocacy organization receiving significant funding from George Soros, may not be a RS for characterization of lawful non-profit contributions of their political opponents. I find it interesting that they characterize the non-published contributions of private individuals, companies, groups, and foundations as "dark money". CRP says in the ref that an astounding $274 million was spent in this "dark money" anonymous contribution system in 2012 and that 25% had "ties" (undefined) to the Kochs. Somehow this entirely ignores the anonymous political spending by unions which was many times that number. According to well-publicized news reports, spending by merely the AFL-CIO headquarters and its affiliated unions climbed to $608 million in the 2009 and 2010 election season from $452 million in 2005 and 2006. They spent $316 million in 2011, a nonelection year, amid the fight with Mr. Walker in Wisconsin. ] (]) 20:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	:What are you talking about? "Dark money" is money coming from interest groups that are not required to disclose their donors to the public. OpenSecrets clearly mentions '''labor unions''' here in this intro. There is a page at the site called ''"Top Interest Groups Giving to Members of Congress, 2014 Cycle"'' which clearly shows contributions to '''Democrats''', and when you look down the list you can see '''Public Sector Unions''' at #17. The purpose of OpenSecrets is disclosure of money in politics and I have no problem using them as a source. '''Regarding the Koch's''', the source that was reverted here states, ''"<u>In 2012, more than a third of the record-setting haul brought in by the Koch's flagship nonprofit, Americans for Prosperity -- $115 million -- came from three dark money groups tied to the Kochs that did nothing but give out checks: the Center to Protect Patient Rights (CPPR), Freedom Partners, and TC4 Trust. CPPR's tax filing was first leaked to the Daily Caller.</u>"'' ---- ] (]) 21:41, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

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Total whitewash

...Stand Together, a nonprofit focused on supporting community groups. The stated priorities of the restructured Koch network include efforts aimed at increasing employment, addressing poverty and addiction, ensuring excellent education, building a stronger economy, and bridging divides and building respect.

Bullshit. They are actively funding efforts against all of those things. This kind of propaganda should not be allowed in the lead section. Viriditas (talk) 23:52, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Charles Koch Institute funding of AstroTurf organization opposing mask mandates in schools

I posted this in "Political activities of the Koch brothers" under the "COVID-19" subhead. It is sourced to the Washington Post and a letter that newspaper obtained from the outfit to which the Charles Koch Institute is a "major benefactor." See https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/10/01/masks-schools-koch-money/:

The Charles Koch Institute is a "major benefactor" of the Independent Women’s Forum, a dark money nonprofit organization that opposes efforts to combat the coronavirus through mask mandates in schools. The group circulated a template letter to its members encouraging them to personalize and mail it to "your own school superintendents and administrators, principals, and teachers!" Among other things the proposed letter falsely asserted that "young kids do not significantly spread COVID either" and claimed that "common sense" teaches that requiring masks in school may lead to anxiety, depression, decreases in socialization skills, and increases in tooth decay in children.

User William M. Connolley asserts flimsy dubious for erasing it, claiming that it is not NPOV, i.e. "NPOV; your desc doesn't tally with our article on them. And the material seems to mostly belong there, rather than here" I have no idea what he means by "our article" and his statement that the sourced material "seems to mostly belong there, rather than here" makes no sense. If he has a problem with the neutrality of the entry, he should suggest revisions, not simply lop it off. I will revert if he doesn't respond in a constructive way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Podgorney (talk • contribs) 02:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

In an effort to be responsive to User William M. Connolley's remarks, I have edited the entry as follows:

"The Charles Koch Institute is a "major benefactor" of the Independent Women’s Forum, a nonprofit organization that opposes efforts to combat the coronavirus through mask mandates in schools. The group circulated a template letter to its members encouraging them to personalize and mail it to "your own school superintendents and administrators, principals, and teachers!" Among other things the proposed letter asserted that "young kids do not significantly spread COVID either" and claimed that "common sense" teaches that requiring masks in school may lead to anxiety, depression, decreases in socialization skills, and increases in tooth decay in children."

The citations are to the Washington Post and a letter posted by the newspaper.Podgorney (talk) 17:30, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: mention of the Koch brothers's political data analytics company called i360. Source 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:35, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Content dispute

@William M. Connolley:@172.110.60.4:@JPxG: I'm opening this discussion because I think all of you made good points in your edit summaries but we aren't supposed to converse through edit summaries we're supposed to converse on the talk page. The IP stated when they added the text "John Birch Society mention added, given the significance and relevance to political activities" which at first glance appears odd given there being no mention of the John Birch Society in the body. JPxG countered with "not providing a reliable source (WP:CITE, WP:RS)" which is very reasonable given that it does not appear in the current body. The IP replied "Misplaced Pages is the "reliable source" for Fred Koch being a co-founder of John Birch Society" which I believe is a misunderstanding of the relevant policy. William M. Connolley reverted with the edit summary "this is the koch bros article, not the sins-of-the-fathers-unto-the-7th-generation article" which touched on none of the reasons JPxG brought up nor did it provide any basis in policy or guideline for the summary, this appears to just be their personal opinion. The IP countered with "Fred Koch's co-founding of the John Birch Society is relevant, given that son Charles Koch was also a member. This is an article about the politics (!) of the Koch brothers, and failing to mention to the connection to the John Birch Society would be to hide relevant factual information." which despite their previous misunderstanding of policy does actually appear to be a nearly infallible WP:NPOV argument. William M. Connolley ends with "as before: no, this is about the sons" which is again bizarrely wrong and besides the point but no matter because the revert was legit. Now here's my problem, when I search "John Birch Society" I actually find it in the sources, we appear to already have a number of sources specifically for this claim, however it appears to have been scrubbed from the article. I will delve into the history on this but interested in hearing what you guys think, I'd especially like to hear more of Connolley's rationale for non-inclusion about info about the father of the brothers. I've just never heard anyone make an argument like that and if it has any basis in policy or guideline I'd like to know because I sure as heck can't think of any. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Looking at the history we mentioned their dad's founding position at JBS for years, which is why we still have sources with quotes specifically for it. Will try to find the edit which removed it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

So it was removed in this edit with the edit summary "ALL articles mentioning living people are subject to that policy - in the case at hand, the material is NOT RELEVANT to this article - period." despite the second source being a New Yorker article entitled "Covert Operations: The billionaire brothers who are waging a war against Obama" which would mean that it was relevant to this article... Period. Perhaps @Collect: can explain? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I did the initial revert while using WP:HG, so didn't have the chance to look deep into article history, but I think that (barring some other consensus or precedent) William's reasoning makes sense -- the article is about the guys, not their father. That's not to say that information on their family background should be excised completely. Upon some reflecton, it certainly seems UNDUE in the lead, though I can't speak to the rest of the article. jp×g 17:46, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

The article links contraception with abortion -- no source

It should seem obvious that opposition to contraception is not significant political movement & that the linking of that with opposing baby-murder is a propagandistic crock. But at any rate, the linking done in the article was deleted on the grounds that it had no source, and the closest citation to this (citation to a previous sentence) did not evidence the word contraception at all when searched. (AltheaCase (talk) 18:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC))

Requested move 21 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. WP:RMNOMIN (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 06:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Political activities of the Koch brothers → Koch network – The current WP:COMMONNAME is the "Koch network", this should be the title as well. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:35, 21 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 08:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm inclined to support because I think it is a well established term and reasonably recognizability, but many of the Google Scholar results are about a math concept. However, the math concept does not seem to have a wikiarticle yet. (t · c) buidhe 03:28, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd argue that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC when moved, so then the math subject need parenthesis disambiguation when added to Misplaced Pages. PhotographyEdits (talk) 17:13, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Categories: