| Revision as of 13:01, 23 December 2013 editKafkasmurat (talk | contribs)455 edits →Political Things: new section← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 19:46, 20 December 2024 edit undoEvergreenFir (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators129,274 editsm Reverted edit by 78.173.128.237 (talk) to last version by BuidheTag: Rollback |
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{{warning|1=Under the discretionary sanctions imposed at ], this article has been placed on a '''one-revert rule'''. Any editor who makes more than one revert in a 24-hour period will be ''blocked''. Please edit cooperatively, and seek consensus and compromise rather than edit-war. ] 22:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)}} |
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{{warning|1=Under the discretionary sanctions imposed at ], this article has been placed on a '''one-revert rule'''. Any editor who makes more than one revert in a 24-hour period will be ''blocked''. Please edit cooperatively, and seek consensus and compromise rather than edit-war. ] 22:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)}} |
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|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Armenian Genocide/archive1 |
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|action3link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Armenian Genocide/archive1 |
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{{Vital article|level=4|topic=History|class=C}} |
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{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= |
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{{WikiProject Armenia|class=c|importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Turkey|class=c|importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Ottoman Empire|class=c|importance=High}} |
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{{WP1.0|v0.7=pass|class=C|category=History}}}} |
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== Why is there no mention of Kemal Ataturk? == |
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I find it highly distressing that no mention is made of Kemal Ataturk's part leading the Turkish forces during the genocide. http://www.armenian-genocide.org/kemal.html] (]) 08:37, 25 May 2013 (UTC) |
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:That is an incredibly biased website that has no place whatsoever as a source on Misplaced Pages. I am interested though in why there is no mention of Ataturk in the article, even a statement of where he was during the genocide if he had no involvement - it is fairly important given his role in the war of independence, the founding of the republic, and the presidency, and the fact that the genocide occurred so shortly before his ascendency. ] (]) 15:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC) |
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== Harper's statistical gazetteer == |
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This is irrelevant, also the statistic does not include all Turkish Armenia and furthermore the population provided include the whole population not only Armenians: ''including a great variety of tribes & races.'' <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:26, 11 June 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Remove Bodil Biørn section? == |
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|action9date = 19:20, 16 June 2021 (UTC) |
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I don't understand why Bodil Biørn stands out above the rest of the witnesses to the Armenian Genocide. I think its misleading to have just one of these witnesses talked about. I propose removing the section or make a new section which highlights many different witnesses and their rules in the Genocide. ] (]) 08:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC) |
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== Settlement of muhaijirs == |
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(quote section 2.3) "As many as 850,000 of these refugees were settled in areas where the Armenians were resident from the period of 1878–1904." |
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{{Press|title=Sheriffs: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver |work=] |date=March 8, 2020}} |
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I think this means "From 1878 to 1904 as many as 850,000 of these refugees were settled in areas where the Armenians" were important before 1878 and remained until after 1904, or something like that. --] (]) 01:06, 25 July 2013 (UTC) |
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{{Top 25 Report|Apr 19 2015 (10th)}} |
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== Russian and Ottoman Empires == |
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::: --and Persian, I learned subsequently, although ] were few in number after 1828/29, when the modern northern border of Iran at the ] was established following the last of the ]. (Somewhere we say that 30,000 Armenians who remained in NW Iran moved N to Russian Armenia.) --] (]) 18:49, 27 July 2013 (UTC) |
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;Other archives</center>], ], ]}} |
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Unless I missed it, this article doesn't provide any sense of how many Armenians, or what share, lived in the Russian Empire as of April 1915. |
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: --or at the start of war in 1877, after the final peace in 1878 (]), or when the Russian Army left the field in 1917 (]) --to name three other interesting moments |
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If I understand the maps here and at ], much territory from the 1914 Russian Empire <s>(and some from 1914 Persia?)</s> --with large Armenian population at that time, I infer-- become part of Turkey sometime later. This may be most of the five modern provinces north and east of Erzurum Province. |
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::: Most of those provinces, yes (]). Much more territory was captured by Russian (including Armenian) forces 1915 to 1917 (map, ]). -P64 |
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Were the territories contested by the two Empires between 1877 and 1917 mountainous with relatively few people, while most Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire thruout? |
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::: No, albeit high in elevation above the seacoast. Thh Greater Caucasus and ] mountains (snow-covered in the photo) were previously acquired by Russia in annexation of Georgia and wars with Iran and Circassia. |
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Perhaps we have some Imperial maps that will help. --] (]) 01:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::: For three territorial maps (not elevation or population) most relevant here, see ], ], ]. For topography, ]. For Armenian population distribution, the Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia map just below. --] (]) 18:49, 27 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:According to the 1897 ], there were 1,173,096 persons whose native language was Armenian, which basically is the number of Armenians at the time, although some Armenian sources give higher numbers. For example, the ] (1987 volume I think) () puts the total number of Armenians in 1914 at 4.47 million, of which 45.9% in Russia, 45.4% in the Ottoman Empire and 8.7% elsewhere. This can be considered a highly reliable source by the way. |
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:''Were the territories contested by the two Empires between 1877 and 1917 mountainous with relatively few people, while most Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire thruout?'' Not really, the ] is mountainous, but people live throughout the region. The area contested between Russia and Turkey in 1877-78 was mostly the ] and the area around the city of ]. --] ] 02:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:: Thanks. For this article it may be enough to convey that about half of Armenians lived in O.E., about half in R.E. . |
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:: Now I have read several other articles and perused numerous maps. Briefly, here are three articles (especially the linked sections) very instructive about the recent background. ]; ]; ]. |
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:: Already by the 1700s, however, much of Armenia and all of the Soviet or modern territory was beyond the eastern frontier of the Ottoman Empire, in the region dominated by Persia/Iran (]) that Russia gradually gained in ]. There Ottomans ruled only during the 1500s-1600s, approximately. |
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:: --] (]) 20:14, 25 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::: For the very big picture, read ], lead paragraph. |
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::: These remarks, mainly interspersed above, concern this article only indirectly. My notes provide background, after reading dozens of articles and maps, focusing on my own geographical misconceptions of two days ago. --] (]) 18:49, 27 July 2013 (UTC) |
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== Armenian reform package == |
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This article should somehow bring the 1914 ] into the account. And ]. At least one apt sentence for each, with links of course. Probably this should be section 2.4. --] (]) 19:04, 27 July 2013 (UTC) |
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== Denialist literature == |
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Moving this to ], because it perhaps does belong there. --] ] 03:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC) |
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== Edit request on 13 August 2013 == |
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== Infobox text in “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” incorrect == |
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{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}} |
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<!-- Begin request --> |
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There is a miscount in the Infobox to the right of the “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” subtitle. Another of the editors’ absurdities. Listed are five vilayets but then the text says that they represented “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. Sivas, the sixth one, is missing, dearest editors. And one falsification of an RS text in ref. 4. Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian (]) say that these vilayets were “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. This is what the author says on p. 279, ad verbum: “According to the figures presented in the previous chapter, of the 2,925 towns and villages of the empire in which Armenians lived, no fewer than 2,084 were located on the Armenian high plateau, properly speaking – that is, in the vilayets of Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Mamuret ul-Aziz, and Dyarbekir.” By the way, did I mention that Kévorkian uses “the Armenian high plateau” and not “Anatolia” in this particular clause? Cheers] (]) 18:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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Also, hearing that things were "my problem" was the last reason why I used the help desk. I was expecting to solve this issue satisfying all parties. |
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:Good points. The caption now includes Sivas, and the text more closely matches Kevorkian's village-based analysis. There is still a problem, since Kevorkian doesn't use the "Six Villayets" concept explicitly on the page cited. Also, if we want to introduce the "Six Villayets", just doing so in this caption is odd. ] (] / ]) 15:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
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] (]) 21:14, 13 August 2013 (UTC) |
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::Thank you.] (]) 16:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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::During the ] in 1878, these vilayets were referred to as Six Armenian Vilayets, not Six Vilayets.] (]) 18:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:{{ESp|xy}} ] (]) 02:59, 14 August 2013 (UTC) |
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:::Yes, but the cluster is given so many names by the sources, and I'd prefer to use the title of the linked article. You might want to propose a move of the linked article if you think that "Six Armenian Vilayets" would be a better title. ] (] / ]) 19:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Six Armenian Vilayets (or, more precisely, "the provinces inhabited by the Armenians") was the name originally figuring in the official documents of the 1878 ]. Turks, of course, labored to drop anything "Armenian" in their "best" traditions, and I'm sorry to say, the title of the linked article, ], follows this Turkish preference. Whereas one would think the title must have followed the original name version and not the Turkish distortion.] (]) 15:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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== “CUP regrouped as Turkish nationalists” is hypocrisy, the Turkish nationalists literally fought against the CUP… == |
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== Footnote 154 == |
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Yeah, someone care to explain? ] ]<sup>/</sup>] 08:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The Geofferey Robertson QC article no longer on the given website. The document can however be found at http://groong.usc.edu/Geoffrey-Robertson-QC-Genocide.pdf if someone would like to make the change. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:{{done}} ] (]) 22:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC) |
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:What you wrote is not really true and the sources that say so are decades out of date. This was Zürcher's big contribution and now most historians changed their view (] · ]) ''']''' 10:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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=== ZIONISM AND THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE === |
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::The Istanbul Government is the CUP… which was allied to the Entente… which was fighting Turkish nationalists… ] ]<sup>/</sup>] 19:09, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::You've got it backwards. The CUP as an organization didn't outlast World War I, but most of the leading figures in the Turkish Nationalist movement were ex-CUP. If you doubt me, there are literally three sources cited in the article, I would recommend checking them out. (] · ]) ''']''' 20:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== How to contact editors with extra privileges? == |
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The plans of the 1915-23 Armenian Genocide, where a million and half Armenians perished in a barbaric way in their ancestral lands in modern Turkey, actually were drawn up and were in place by the year 1910 or 1912. |
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There is the book "Inner Folds of the Ottoman Revolution" written by Mevlan Zadeh Rifat in Turkish and published in 1929, the author, a pro-sultan Turk, claims that the "Armenian genocide was decided in August 1910 and October 1911, by a Young Turk committee composed entirely of displaced Balkan Jews in the format of a syncretist Jewish-Muslim sect which included Talaat, Enver, Behaeddin Shakir, Jemal, and Nizam posting as Muslims. It met in the Rothschild-funded Grand Orient loge/hotel of Salonika." Syncretism means a combination of different forms of belief or practice; masonism fits that description. As the masons started the 1897 revolution in France with the cry "liberty, fraternity, equality," Young Turks used the same slogan in their revolution of 1908. |
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A 1994 conference paper/lecture by Joseph Brewda of Schiller Institute entitled "Palmerson launches Young Turks to permanently control Middle East " claims the founder of the Young Turks to be a certain Jew by the name of Emmanuel Carasso. He states: "Carasso set up the Young Turk secret society in the 1890s in Salonika, then part of Turkey, and now part of Greece. Carasso was also the grand master of an Italian masonic lodge there, called 'Macedonia Resurrected.' The lodge was the headquarters of the Young Turks, and all the top Young Turk leadership were members." |
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Further on Mr. Brewda says: "During the Young Turk regime, Carasso continued to play a leading role. He met with the sultan, to tell him that he was overthrown. He was in charge of putting the sultan under house arrest. He ran the Young Turk intelligence network in the Balkans. And he was in charge of all food supplies in the empire during World War I." It is ironic that four centuries after the Turkish sultans welcomed the expelled European Jews into Turkey, certain Jews belonging to secret societies and to Zionism will kick the sultan out of power early in 20th century, destroy the Ottoman Empire, and celebrated their victory by massacring by proxy almost the whole Christian Armenian people, one million and half Armenians; half million Greeks; and half million Christian Assyrians & Arameans. |
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In 1982, after the Israeli army conquered Lebanon, they celebrated their victory by massacring by proxy children and women in the Palestinian camp of Shattila, in Lebanon, by allowing Lebanese Phalanger militia fighters to move into the camp for two days and murder its inhabitants. Eighty percent of the camp were killed. Nearly all of the dead were old men, women and children and all of them had been unarmed. Not one gun, not one knife was found in their possession, claims a Palestinian witness. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:37, 19 September 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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I understand there are Misplaced Pages editors who have responsibilities or an ability to perform certain administrative actions, called “editors with extra privileges”, if I’m not mistaken? Could anyone visiting this Talk page (other than these two, for the love of God, (] · ]) ''']''' and ] (] / ])) help with how such editors can be contacted? The highhandedness of the authors and editors of this article, who refuse to implement RS-based edits containing significant viewpoints in violation of Misplaced Pages’s policies and who are involved in falsification of original source texts, needs to stop for the common good of the entire Misplaced Pages community. Thank you in advance.] (]) 17:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:This article is based on published material by credible sources - e.g. historians and similar academics. We do not use material from batshit-crazy sources like the ] - a front organisation for the antisemitic ]. As for that happened at Shattila, it is of no relevance whatsoever to this article. ] (]) 20:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC) |
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:] (] · ]) ''']''' 18:02, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::Agree with {{User|AndyTheGrump}}. Well said. ] (]) 20:24, 19 September 2013 (UTC) |
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::I said "other than this one (] · ]) ''']'''". Are you deaf and dumb?] (]) 18:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::You pinged us. ] (] / ]) 18:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:As an uninvolved administrator... I'm not sure what sort of intervention you're looking for here. To be clear, administrators also do not have the final call on content decisions, as they are instead determined by a consensus of all editors. ] (] | ]) 18:20, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for this. What administrative actions do they perform then? Could you elaborate?] (]) 18:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::Uh, all sorts of stuff? You can see some information on the role at ]. ] (] | ]) 18:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Thank you for responding to my inquiry. Have a nice day.] (]) 18:26, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::::I don't remember that there has ever been a consensus on this Talk page re: the number of Armenians killed, Armenian total population numbers, and the name of historical Armenian habitat. The author's and editors' highhandedness must therefore be reported and an administrative sanction imposed. Will look into ] for that. Thanks again.] (]) 18:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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==Note to self: new sources== |
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*{{cite book |last1=Akçam |first1=Taner |title=The Cambridge World History of Genocide: Volume 3: Genocide in the Contemporary Era, 1914–2020 |date=2023 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-1-108-76711-8 |pages=67–92 |chapter=The Armenian Genocide: An Overview}} |
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*{{cite journal |last1=Akçam |first1=Taner |title=Top-Down and Local Violence in the Late Ottoman Empire: The Role of Security Concerns and a Century of “Accumulated Experience” |journal=Journal of Genocide Research |date=2024 |volume=26 |issue=2 |pages=121–141 |doi=10.1080/14623528.2022.2127488}} |
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==Sayfo== |
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::Agree with unsigned user at 99.104.60.237. Admonish AndyTheGrump that antisemitism and falsehood are two different things. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:38, 13 November 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Should the introduction not include the ]? This was the systematic genocide of the Assyrian, Chaldean, and Syriac peoples, committed by the Ottoman Empire and their collaborators, the Kurdish tribes and other local Muslim Arab populations of the area. The intro should read something like this: |
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::{{Cquote|quote= The '''Armenian genocide'''{{efn|Also known by ].|name=names}}' was the systematic destruction of the ] and the ] peoples in the ] during ].''}} |
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Considering the fact that, based on various sources, the number of Assyrians alone (not including Chaldean) who fell victim to Ottoman/Turkish, Kurdish, and Arab persecutions between 1895 and 1925 was 800,000-1,100,000. Of these, between 150,000-400,000 (most reliable number is considered to be around 250,000 Assyrians) perished in the ], which occurred concurrently with and was closely related to the Armenian genocide (which in reality was more of a Christian genocide than just an Armenian genocide). Assyrian and Chaldean deaths comprised almost half of the genocide deaths in the "Armenian genocide." ] (]) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Sources: |
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== Another cultural reference to add == |
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*<small> * {{cite book |last=Donef |first=Racho |chapter=Sayfo and Denialism: A New Field of Activity for Agents of the Turkish Republic |title=Let Them Not Return: Sayfo – The Genocide Against the Assyrian, Syriac, and Chaldean Christians in the Ottoman Empire |year=2017 |publisher=] |pages=205–218 |isbn=978-1-78533-499-3}}</small> |
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*<small> {{cite book |last1=Gaunt |first1=David |last2=Atto |first2=Naures |last3=Barthoma |first3=Soner O. |chapter=Introduction: Contextualizing the Sayfo in the First World War |title=Let Them Not Return: Sayfo – The Genocide Against the Assyrian, Syriac, and Chaldean Christians in the Ottoman Empire |year=2017 |publisher=] |pages=1–32 |isbn=978-1-78533-499-3 |ref={{sfnref|Gaunt et al.|2017}}}}</small> |
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*<small>* {{cite book |last=Gaunt |first=David |title=A Question of Genocide: Armenians and Turks at the End of the Ottoman Empire |title-link=A Question of Genocide |date=2011 |publisher=] |isbn=978-0-19-978104-1 |pages=245–259 |chapter=The Ottoman Treatment of the Assyrians}}</small> |
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I came to this article because I am reading the novel "The Sandcastle Girls" by Chris Bohjalian, which is based on the historical context of the Armenian Massacre. Both because the novel is rooted in and respectful of this history and and because Mr. Bohjalian is an American author of Armenian descent, I wanted to recommend that it be mentioned in the cultural section of the article. Thank you. ] (]) 05:40, 9 October 2013 (UTC) Naomi Klayman |
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:See ]. Feel free to add the work to that article. --] ] 05:45, 9 October 2013 (UTC) |
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] (]) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Political Things == |
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:Which sources describe the Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac genocides as part of the Armenian genocide? The Wiki article for ] distinguishes it from the Armenian genocide. ] ] 05:11, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Just because of politics and capitalist opressers, people are now divided. There is no differences between Turks or Armenians. You can't even choose who is who. But now everything clashes. And politicians gain benefit. Howcome you call a nation genociders because monarchic politicians murder civilians. You cant blame a nation as genociders. The killings are real but not 1.5 million. All the country has 5 million at that time. It was murderers of tribes and different cultures at eastern Anatolia. I am fed up to be called genocider. Why are you accusing us about it. There were no Turkey or Turks. There was monarchy, and Kurds were in the control of east. And Nobody intended to extinct anyone.There are tens of ethnicities in country. Why to extinct anyone who has been there for 600 years? There are losses i think but not only Armenians. There are "miilions" of other people died while migrating. I accept the casualties as my family. But i didn't kill them. So, Turkey or Turks has nothing to do with this matter. You can call officers, politicians and Ottomans guilty but not a nation.--] (]) 13:00, 23 December 2013 (UTC) |
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::It's complicated, but IMO most of the Sayfo cannot be considered simply a part or even a spill over of the Armenian genocide. (] · ]) ''']''' 06:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
There is a miscount in the Infobox to the right of the “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” subtitle. Another of the editors’ absurdities. Listed are five vilayets but then the text says that they represented “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. Sivas, the sixth one, is missing, dearest editors. And one falsification of an RS text in ref. 4. Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian (The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History) say that these vilayets were “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. This is what the author says on p. 279, ad verbum: “According to the figures presented in the previous chapter, of the 2,925 towns and villages of the empire in which Armenians lived, no fewer than 2,084 were located on the Armenian high plateau, properly speaking – that is, in the vilayets of Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Mamuret ul-Aziz, and Dyarbekir.” By the way, did I mention that Kévorkian uses “the Armenian high plateau” and not “Anatolia” in this particular clause? Cheers73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
I understand there are Misplaced Pages editors who have responsibilities or an ability to perform certain administrative actions, called “editors with extra privileges”, if I’m not mistaken? Could anyone visiting this Talk page (other than these two, for the love of God, (t · c) buidhe and Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs)) help with how such editors can be contacted? The highhandedness of the authors and editors of this article, who refuse to implement RS-based edits containing significant viewpoints in violation of Misplaced Pages’s policies and who are involved in falsification of original source texts, needs to stop for the common good of the entire Misplaced Pages community. Thank you in advance.73.173.64.115 (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
Considering the fact that, based on various sources, the number of Assyrians alone (not including Chaldean) who fell victim to Ottoman/Turkish, Kurdish, and Arab persecutions between 1895 and 1925 was 800,000-1,100,000. Of these, between 150,000-400,000 (most reliable number is considered to be around 250,000 Assyrians) perished in the Sayfo, which occurred concurrently with and was closely related to the Armenian genocide (which in reality was more of a Christian genocide than just an Armenian genocide). Assyrian and Chaldean deaths comprised almost half of the genocide deaths in the "Armenian genocide." FJZAJV (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
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