| Revision as of 23:20, 20 January 2014 editHectorMoffet (talk | contribs)8,679 edits →Hard work← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 03:29, 13 February 2014 edit undoDavid Levy (talk | contribs)Administrators45,228 edits Eight hours later, despite Hector having plenty of time to complain about me on multiple talk pages, my email remains unanswered. |
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{{ mbox | type = notice | text = '''This is a discussion that never matured into a proposal.''' }} |
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{{historic}} |
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{{oldmfd|date=16 January 2014|result="speedy keep"|votepage=Misplaced Pages:The Day We Fight Back}} |
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{{oldmfd|date=16 January 2014|result="speedy keep"|votepage=Misplaced Pages:The Day We Fight Back}} |
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{{archives}} |
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==Archive of initial discussion at ]== |
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{{collapse top|archive of discussion which took place at ]}} |
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'''Note to those just arriving at, or re-arriving at, this discussion: there seems to be emerging support and excitement for a proposal by Jehochman, below. Please engage with that now, rather than a blackout, as there also appears to be emerging consensus that a blackout is not right at this time for this issue.--] (]) 14:29, 14 January 2014 (UTC)''' |
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:''Note: occurs in middle of'' ], 6-23 Feb 2014. -] 04:12, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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Just putting this out here for preliminary discussions: .--] (]) 16:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:If ] articles surface we should certainly write a ] article on it.--] (]) 17:05, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:So is the plan to shut down Misplaced Pages again for a day?--] 17:23, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::I doubt that is what Jimbo means, regardless of anybody's opinion on government surveillance and related issues, they do not threaten Misplaced Pages directly enough, imo, for any action to be taken. <i><b>] <sup><small>]</small></sup></b></i> 19:05, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::No kidding. But aside from shutting down the website for a day, what other means of protest are both available and obvious enough to make our opinion obvious.--] 19:20, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:And how long do we "fight back" against the amount of data Google and others collect? ]] 17:26, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::Uhm...without that Google data collection...Misplaced Pages articles would not appear in a google search. Some collection is part of how your search engine provides data to you.--] (]) 03:11, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Umm..and their scanning of e-mail for targeted advertising purposes and other activities relate to Misplaced Pages articles how, exactly? It's not just searching...Google collects and uses far more than that. ]] 19:42, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:: |
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* '''Have essays or related articles ready in time:''' We can use the words "avoid" or "counter" while the word "fight" is problematic because of connection to ] ]ground mentality, but there might also be conflicts with some users who like mass surveillance. I suggest a new essay "]" but be prepared that everything new will be dragged to AfD or ] and allow extra time for people fighting against any progress to improve coverage. Meanwhile, it is good for people to remember those who have been arrested over false perceptions, and those celebrity sex tapes, with people a few months underage, have led to charges of child pornography where perhaps 19 is considered legal age. It is good to remind people to clear the browser's temporary files, to erase controversial work files, and beware of mobile phone zoom-lens cameras at an ], or even in public restrooms. There are cameras and snooping everywhere. -] (]) 18:16, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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{{archives|search=yes}} |
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Yet another case where Misplaced Pages should avoid politicizing itself. I recall posting several times on this user talk page asking if Misplaced Pages were co-operating with "collection agencies" (pun intended) and was assured Misplaced Pages was not so doing. That is far different from the "action" being called for in a political manner. Cheers. ] (]) 18:38, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::I agree. SOPA connected to Misplaced Pages, but I don't think this connects enough for action. ] (]) 19:30, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Redirect: Mass Surveillance WikiProject == |
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Another useless protest? Can we avoid politics and attention-grabbing gimmicks and just focus on building and improving the encyclopaedia? Thank you.--] (]) 19:52, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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Various proposals and discussion of exceptional special events for February 11 are available in the page histories and archives of this talk page and the parent page. However, most if not all ongoing activities are part of ] and should be discussed there. ] (]) 17:41, 7 February 2014 (UTC) |
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:Agreed. There are enough internal issues here that should be addressed as it is. ]] 21:52, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Why was the proposal scrapped? == |
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*Three comments, based upon our SOPA experience: |
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I have not been following the discussion closely, but I'm aware that it generated a great amount of controversy and I was under the impression that the proposal got scrapped because we failed to push a few of our featured articles onto the main page. I notice there's also a significant amount of opposition coming from users who claimed that the proposal amounted to political ]. Taking a second look at things, I'm assuming that's the real reason why it failed. |
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:First, because of our community consensus policy, Misplaced Pages cannot respond as fast as reddit.com or icanhas.cheezburger.com can. If we are going to participate, we need to hammer out the details now, not later. |
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In any case, I strongly recommend adding a brief and concise summary of why the proposal failed, so that future editors would be aware of what exactly went wrong. |
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:Second, before Misplaced Pages got on board the SOPA protest, news sources kept speculating on us: "but will Misplaced Pages join the protest?" Misplaced Pages joining or not joining is a very big deal. |
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-] (]) 17:44, 12 February 2014 (UTC) |
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:Third, we need to be really careful not to overuse the idea. Misplaced Pages protesting one thing in four years has a lot of impact. Misplaced Pages protesting four things in one year has far less impact. --] (]) 20:56, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:Technically speaking, it's not a failed proposal, it was basically a sandbox that never managed to turn into any proposal There were a bunch of ideas discussed here, but nothing ever got beyond brainstorming. Instead, people focused their efforts on ]. --] (]) 17:52, 12 February 2014 (UTC) |
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::That's such a pity, because I saw a lot of potentially brilliant ideas being brought up. I would have gladly helped to consolidate them, but unforunately, I'm relatively new here and I don't have much experience in doing these things. Anyway, thank you for putting in so much time and effort into this, Hector. Even if it ultimately failed, at least now we have ''']''' up and running. -] (]) 18:04, 12 February 2014 (UTC) |
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::: Beyond any other protest activities, the focus could be on "]" as providing information which people might expect, about ]. Even with the ] on Sunday, Misplaced Pages was mentioned in discussing the "]" as an obvious website to check for background information. -] 01:17, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Well, that too. The mass surveillance articles can always use help. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 02:26, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::The relative importance of this thing needs to be considered, though. It's true that if Snowden's revelations came along ten years from now, the potentially watered-down effect of Misplaced Pages's response would be a nonissue. But revelations such as these have no precedent in history, so the third point may have less validity than the first two. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:31, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Snowden merely provided further confirmation of what many already knew.--] 21:43, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::He provided hard-core, undisputed evidence straight from the source which has enjoyed 8 months of nonstop, excellent media coverage and sparked indignation and action across the globe. Previous NSA whistleblowers and Congresspersons like Wyden were all but ignored, and have expressed deep gratitude that Snowden blew the lid off this story so that it can finally be addressed in open courts and by the general public. Remember, "We don't spy, not wittingly" was the NSA's accepted line prior to Snowden. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:54, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Quite. And the UK's GCHQ is just as guilty. ] ] 21:59, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::]. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:13, 13 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::Oh dear..some countries with similar forms of government, outlooks and language have been working cooperatively behind the scenes...big shock! Thank goodness Snowden blew the lid off all these things or else we would have all been in total darkness as to the nefarious activities of big brother.--] 02:33, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::"The fact that this has made it to the floor of the House of Representatives is unquestionably good. It is another step…in the march to a real debate,” Wyden said, and added that Snowden’s disclosures made it possible. “We wouldn’t have had that seven, eight weeks ago.” This fact was acknowledged—albeit begrudgingly—by other House members... during a... hearing with officials from the Department of Justice and the NSA. “Snowden, I don’t like him at all, but we would’ve never known what happened if he hadn’t told us,” said Representative Ted Poe." '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 02:45, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::You keep drawing a nonexistent distinction. When a proposal is finalized and rejected by the community, it's a ]. When a proposal is shelved before the exact details of its implementation can be worked out, it's a ]. |
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:::::::::*“So, today I’m going to deliver another warning: If we do not seize this unique moment in our constitutional history to reform our surveillance laws and practices, we will all live to regret it,” Wyden continued. “The combination of increasingly advanced technology with a breakdown in the checks and balances that limit government action could lead us to a surveillance state that cannot be reversed.” '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 03:21, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::This was explicitly presented as a proposal until ''you'' removed such language. More importantly, it was ''treated'' as a proposal by those of us who took part in the discussions. Yes, brainstorming occurred (as is typical of Misplaced Pages's proposals), but much of the conversation related to the desirability of proceeding with the general idea. Ultimately, this was rejected. |
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::I'm struggling to understand why you insist on claiming that this ''wasn't'' a proposal. Is it because you believe that it reflects poorly on the WikiProject? On the contrary, that a tangible asset to the encyclopedia emerged from a failed proposal is a testament to the dedication and tenacity of those involved. |
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::As I explained to Wnt on my talk page, a proposal's failure doesn't necessarily mean that it was a bad idea or that nothing good has (or will) come of it. The community can learn a great deal from its failed attempts, provided that they aren't swept under the rug. —] 19:04, 12 February 2014 (UTC) |
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:Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe HectorMoffet closed the RfC after the first oppose (I agree with the failed tag by the way). The mistake was not going straight from the productive discussion on JW's page to an RfC; we had almost a month to make a decision as a community, but it was never brought forward for a proper discussion. Instead HM and a couple of others discussed it amongst themselves and on various dispersed talk pages. A summary reflecting that may be useful for future time-sensitive proposals. ''']'''] 18:49, 12 February 2014 (UTC) |
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A little while ago it was proposed that we join with various multi-national corporations in taking a stand for Internet freedom, and I commented that we would be better aligning ourselves with other Internet non-profits. I still think that, but the aesthetics of the facebook banners they are proposing leave me a little cold. The Franklin quote: try telling that to Winston Churchill. And I'm particularly nonplussed by the image of of some guy (is it Rosanne's husband? have they run it by him?) who's so annoyed with the NSA he's about to kill his work colleagues. I know its just what some random people thought would grab people's attention, but it strikes a tone that's a bit too right-of-centre for my liking. Maybe Misplaced Pages should be part of this once they've had a re-think about what it is they want to convey. ] (]) 01:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*Is Snowden's revelations and the spying a '''big enough deal''' that we need to shut down Misplaced Pages? That's the question we should be asking. <span style="text-shadow:0em 0em 1em #003399;">]</span><span style="text-shadow:0em 0em 1em #FF8C00;">]</span> 01:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::It's a campaign about putting a banner on your site, not about shutting it down. ] (]) 02:14, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*The question we should be asking is what can we do to support people's right to read freely, without fear that their reading habits on Misplaced Pages will be used to harass them somehow. This would be a good time to remind people that "Freedom from fear" means freedom from being oppressed and targeted for harassment based on your Internet use. For those who think this is "no big deal," I'd suggest you take a look at "]," a reputable, open-source book and website that came out way before Snowden, and get a handle on what we're talking about here. When serious thinkers in intelligence ethics are formulating arguments along the lines of, "Well that guy was a national level legislator, he should have known better that he's fair game for anything anyone can possibly dig up by hacking his digital trail and exposing it to the public ..."-- with social norms like that, what chance do the rest of us have to defend ourselves against smears, harassment or worse? Who's going to want to run for public office under those circumstances? |
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:* We already know one thing we can do to support people's right to read freely without fear that their reading Misplaced Pages will be used to harass them. We can set up a ] exit node in Misplaced Pages's server room, set up so that it can only access Misplaced Pages and Wikimedia, and with the ability to edit Misplaced Pages blocked. That way, anyone can read Misplaced Pages in an untraceable way. --] (]) 05:48, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::*'''Support''' for the implementation of TOR as part of Misplaced Pages's "fight back". '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 01:18, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::: Except Misplaced Pages bans TOR because admins can't easily catch sockpuppets if they use TOR. You see, Misplaced Pages and the NSA do have something in common (the NSA usually has to DOS tor users; direct spying on TOR directly being more difficult). ] (]) 15:50, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::: ]'s proposal specifically addresses this (read only). Guy, is that idea written up anywhere in more technical detail? <span style="color:#666">– ]]</span> 19:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::I can write up detailed instructions or even provide an image of a virtual machine that is already set up, but I doubt that the WMF developers need either. I have found them to be extremely competent in the past. |
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::::::To expand on what I wrote above, the TOR node I am describing would: |
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::::::*Talk to a strictly limited set of domains (Misplaced Pages, Wikimedia, etc). It would not have access (read or write) to any other domain. |
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::::::*Be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages or any associated project (Wiktionary, Wikinews) that we may decide to give access to. |
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::::::*It should have bandwidth throttling. Just being a TOR relay node that is unlikely to be controlled by the NSA has value; every new node increases the security of the network. That being said, we don't want to give the TOR traffic unlimited resources. |
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::::::*Just to be extra careful, we should block read access to any kind of executable file (.exe, Javascript etc.) to make it harder for a Misplaced Pages editor to compromise a TOR user's privacy See ]. |
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:::::: --] (]) 20:42, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::You're wrong, lol, but I don't blame you, the timeline is confusing. :) This page was already abandoned for the Mass Surveillance wikiproject by the time Rybec started his discussion. I agree, in retrospect, that we needed prominent community members to lead an immediate site-wide discussion. Being prominent nor a leader, I worked on the content side and got a lot done at the WikiProject, but without a parallel process of on-going consensus generation, it wasn't enough. ---] (]) 19:12, 12 February 2014 (UTC) |
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*For my part, I would like us to take a stand in favor of the general principle of ]. That's how we run our site-- and that's how people want to live, they want a say in what is done with the information collected about them, and how it is used. ] (]) 03:33, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::How is Ben Moore wrong? In {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)|592654184||this edit}}, you removed the RfC after one response (opposition) was received. —] 19:22, 12 February 2014 (UTC) |
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* I'll pipe up as a marketing guy. A message is most effective when it matches the format of the media. We're an encyclopedia. On Feb 11, I suggest we fill our front page with articles, blurbs and news about mass spying and privacy. That will send a strong message, ''and'' help educate people. It's sort of like what we do on April 1, except serious instead of foolish. ] <sup>]</sup> 02:22, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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**{{like}} Exactly what I was going to add, including mentioning that we could have a very, very compelling set of DYKs on the subject. ] (]) 03:17, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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**{{like}} ] (]) 03:36, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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**{{like}} ]'s idea is a fine one, which stands to reason since he's versed in this sort of thing. Without prejudice to other ideas, let's push this forward. ] (]) 03:44, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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**{{like}} This is '''brilliant'''. ] has found just the right balance between silence and blackout. --] (]) 05:24, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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**{{like}} What I love about it is that it is NPOV and still allows us to show, in a neutral way, that we think the issue is '''important'''. Let people make up their own minds - but let them be informed when they do. As a side note, and I guess this is an odd place to put it but people are probably curious - I am generally in favor of a blackout in cases where we can have a real material impact, i.e. just before a major vote that is about to do something awful. But a blackout with no specific ask, with no specific legislation looming, strikes me as overkill.--] (]) 14:26, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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**{{like}} Definitely a better idea than a full blackout - still gets the point across, but does it in a way that matches Misplaced Pages's purpose of educating. Perfect compromise. <b>~<i><font color="#07517C">]</font></i><font color="#6FA23B">]</font></b> <small>] ]</small> 15:41, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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**{{like}} Don't like a balckout for this - other things are of course possible as well, such as banners. ]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">]</font>)</sub> 17:52, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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**{{like}} A thoughtful idea, and one that lets us truly inform readers. <span style="color:#666">– ]]</span> 19:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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**{{like}} — ]] <sup><font color="#666">''Call me Hahc21''</font></sup> 22:18, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''I've put Olympics hatnote''', above, to remember "11 February" (Tuesday) occurs in middle of ], 6-23 Feb 2014, when many Wikipedians will be updating thousands of articles to provide coverage. Already, the have doubled since early January. -] 04:12, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::What percentage of readers will visit the Misplaced Pages home page when they're here, do we know this? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 04:38, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::: Yes, we do know the percentage as a steady rate, from pageviews of ] during the prior ] (), as 5.1 million/day unchanged during the event (2014 average: 9.0 million/day). However, the Olympics will take space on the Main_page, as covered each day. Also, "viewing" does not mean reading the page, and so a Main_page banner might be needed to get attention on 11 Feb. -] 06:00, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::If we decide to say something, we'll almost certainly want to add a link to our statement near the top of every article for the day. --] (]) 05:27, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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First of all...this is NOT a Misplaced Pages protest. Just because Jimbo brought this to our attention here does not mean he is sponsoring this or involved in any way. Guys...this has been out there for a while and Jimbo is not the first to share this. If you don't want to take a stand as a group because that is what our guidelines and policies state then don't...but those guidelines and policies ARE NOT TO CONTROL US AS A GROUP and/or whatever we want to support or protest as that group. Those policies and guidelines are meant to help us write articles not control us as a community. |
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I support this Jimmy!--] (]) 04:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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: Also, as noted above, we can expand (or highlight) the related background articles, beyond "]" without actually protesting any specific issue. -] 06:00, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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'''Very strong support'''. Let's not go black over this, but a banner and a tailored main page are fitting. It just wouldn't look right for all our closest allies to participate only to have Misplaced Pages remain silent on an issue of such gravity. --] (]) 05:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:We could use the same mechanism we use to put Jimbo's smiling face on our fundraising banners. --] (]) 06:11, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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'''Support''' for HectorMoffet's every word. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 07:37, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' for banner and main page educational words and pictures. Let the 💕 spread the news. ]]] 07:50, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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* We should not silence our coverage of the Olympics. That and other things can continue while we highlight the issue of Mass Surveillance. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:06, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*: Agreed, I like this idea and implementation. <span style="color:#666">– ]]</span> 19:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' ] proposal.--]] 13:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' as clearly educational in contrast to a blackout which would be the opposite of educational and what we need is to educate our readers generally, and specifically on this issue. Annoying them with no wikipedia will irritate people without informing them of these very real surveillance issues. I do though wish wikipedia would allow editing with ], the use of which is one of the best ways we can all show our opposition to mass surveillance♫ ] ] ] 14:38, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::If it were done naïvely, it would be tantamount to lifting all blocks and bans, a radical affirmation of the principle that ]. If edits from the Tor network could be clearly identified in the history, or if they all went through a review similar to pending changes, then edits by Tor users could get extra scrutiny. —] 05:01, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' I could only see supporting this if it was expanded to deal with the sort of surveillance conducted by Google and other tech companies on a daily basis. Otherwise it's just more politically-motivated electronic masturbation. Is Google's surveillance "good" because they do it in the name of advertising profits? If we're going to NPOV it we should include all these activities. ]] 14:41, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::I see no reason why non-governmental global surveillance isn't worth mentioning too. Although, to put it into perspective Google doesn't have prosecutors, prisons, an army, an air force, or armed drones. --] (]) 06:56, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' ] proposal. ] (]) 15:37, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' - And as we are an encyclopedia with much in the way of information, I think should last a full week, not just a single day. Out goal, as noted above is to inform by sharing what others say. I think that this is something we can do well here. - <b>]</b> 20:22, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Caution''' - Ideally, this could be the beginning of a series of one-day featured topics on timely concepts from politics, as well as other fields like extrasolar planetary systems. But filling the entire Main Page, even for a day, means creating and polishing a lot of material. We have to make sure that we don't declare to the world we're going to do something big, then show them a sloppy job. We also have to make sure that the NPOV is not compromised, as this is not something that we can easily argue is strictly necessary for our continued operations. ] (]) 21:06, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support'''. A most excellent idea put forth by {{u|Jehochmah}}, above. Cheers, — ''']''' (]) 23:30, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Jecochmah's idea of using our own articles in a protest stunt as total madness. A potential banner or similar on the issue must in no way be linked to Misplaced Pages's ordinary content unless is a very neutral manner to explain background. Using our own articles to argue a cause would totally damage our principle of neutrality. ] (]) 02:42, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::<small>Just to clarify, we would never change articles away from NPOV. What's proposed is to display a custom, one-day-only message at Main, and to have a banner of some type above articles. I suspect your objection still stands, but just wanted to clarify that our articletext is sacrosanct.] (]) 06:51, 15 January 2014 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Oppose''' Not because it so much matters, if you could get it together in a few hours, but that seems doubtful, making it a considerable distraction for far too many resources (our editors' time) from article creation/curation, which given the size and difficulty of that vital task cannot actually afford such distraction. These libertarian/authoritarian issues are undoubtedly as ancient as the first time two people decided to live together but this project is not going to do much for it, except to create informational content that people demand/desire -- by hook, by crook, through persecution, and prosecution -- to read and pass along. -- ] (]) 14:46, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' This would completely contravene the no advertising, it doesn't matter if the articles were neutral, so were ] articles in DYK, and I know enough about that to know it caused uproar. We should not resort to backing any cause, (almost) no matter what. ]]<span style="color: #800080">.</span>] 17:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''OPPOSE''' Misplaced Pages isn't a vehicle for agitprop. If that's your desire, ''Pravda'' always needs writers. We're here to build an encyclopedia.--] (]) 01:40, 16 January 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''': It's a well-thought-out proposal, will be fine as long as we stick to NPOV -] (]) 03:27, 16 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' in the strongest possible terms. This is a political statement and we must not take political positions. It is antithetical to our mission. ] (]) 03:41, 16 January 2014 (UTC) |
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* '''Strong oppose''' - Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, that's it. It is not a vehicle to promote ANY political agenda, at all, no matter how nice or nasty it is. If the WMF wants to jump on the bandwagon for this campaign and they feel it is line with their goal to promote free knowledge, then fine, they can issue statements and do interviews etc., but they're encyclopedic projects must remain neutral. I opposed the SOPA action, and I will oppose this for the same reason: we must not stray from our original purpose to provide a compendium of neutral free knowledge into some kind of internet activist group. It's an insult to our donors, we promised them that we would not be like all the rest of the internet wikis with clear POV's (e.g. Conservapedia), and would be genuinely neutral on political matters. Please stop. ] (]) 18:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC) |
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===The Main Page Project=== |
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*On the assumption that the proposal has already been supported, I've gone ahead and '''created ]''' in a similar vein to the April Fool's Day Main Page campaign, due to the already-overwhelming likes for Jehochman's (IMO brilliant) compromise above. Please don't hesitate to add to the basic framework I created (and partly ctrl c, ctrl v'ed off the AFD pages) :D.--] (]) 14:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:*I left a post on ] with regards to this, as if this happens that section would need advanced preparation. ] (]) 15:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:*I believe you're jumping the gun in declaring this proposal supported. There may be support to make the proposal, but it should be taken to the community as a whole, not just the limited group that follows this user talk page.--] (]) 16:13, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::*Agree with the above, we need a centralised discussion, but we need to keep in mind we don't have that much time. ''']'''] 16:16, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::* I'm not sure you realise just how massive and fractured the Misplaced Pages community actually is. If anyone who has every touched the edit button is required to have a say so all thousands of us can have an organised discourse on the topic, then I really don't think we'd ever get anywhere. This is a genuinely good idea and I see no reason why we can't just go with the flow rather than resort to overly-bureaucratic systems. In any case, I didn't actually declare the nomination supported. Instead I explained that I created a page (created prematurely because I think the proposal will go through anyway), so when it eventually does we'll already have a basic framework to work off of. But Ben Moore is right. We don't have much time at all to be flapping about.--] (]) 16:21, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::*No need for hyperbole, no one is suggesting "anyone who has every touched the edit button" need be consulted. Just e.g. a week-long straw poll or mini-RFC with a limited number of properly-developed options, per ]. ''']'''] 16:42, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::*'''Centralized discussion needed''', or this will look like a hijack by the few. Also, there are other main page interests in addition to DYK that need to be included in a consensus. ] (]) 16:39, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::* I think it's a good idea to put together a concrete example of what the page might look like. People will have a much easier time evaluating the proposal if they can look at something. We can prepare the page while concurrently having a centralized discussion to decide "go" or "no go". That way we aren't caught short of time. Lastly, I suggest ] be considered for the featured article that day. We'll have to work hard to get it up to featured condition in time, if it's even possible. Love him or hate him, he's been a central character for this issue. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:43, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::*No worries, Maile-- I think everyone recognizes that a decision of this magnitude can't be made by insiders on Jimmy's talk page. As Jehochman says, we're informally just working out what it is we're proposing. --] (]) 21:05, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::*I have to agree - those of us reading this page tend to be fond of "drama" that many others can do without. ] (]) 21:08, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Meh. There's a difference between "drama" and a legitimate controversy.--] (]) 07:27, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::I think there is plenty of Support for this, but I also think it should hopefully only help to try to garner a wider consensus from the community, and/or seek out consensus from members of the community that frequent the above-mentioned individual project pages for the various subsections of the Main Page. — ''']''' (]) 00:14, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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I left comments there and propose we copy further discussion, including the survey below, to that page. <span style="color:#666">– ]]</span> 19:14, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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{{collapse bottom}} |
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== Commentary == |
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* '''You can call spirits from the vasty deep; but will they come?''' It's all fine and dandy to schedule a day of Main Page features, but you'd better organize a brigade of editors to get that content ready for prime time. |
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* '''NPOV.''' We have to ensure that we are featuring the ''topic'' in response to the day, not decreeing an official POV - that means a pro-spy dissent is possible, and if we're not careful, it might overshadow our own. Don't start a war you're not committed to win. |
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*: Or simply "pro-big-brother" / "pro-surveillance". There are definitely prominent speakers, writers, and political groups who support this in different parts of the world; not just spy organizations. Similar discussions arise arounbd national IDs. You can also have entirely public and transparent surveillance / data-gathering / data-mining. |
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* '''Are they notable enough?''' As much as I like the direction of their mind, I find underwhelming. Apart from the nifty artwork with the subtle ] motif, it looks like something I could hack together myself. Are we sure this event is big enough to make a big deal out of? There's nothing worse than "demonstrating" a ''lack'' of support. |
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*: I have heard a lot about this but only from people in the organizations listed. I'm not sure yet how much of a public presence it will have; this is fair to ask. On the other hand, a solid thematic main page on something that's topical in a given month/year would be pretty great, and this seems like both a good candidate and something that many people affected know little about. (thank you, low-signal mass media :-! ) <span style="color:#666">– ]]</span> |
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*:Reddit has announced they're doing it, so it's going to be a big deal. But more to the point, we're the sixth most-visited website on the planet earth: we don't have to worry about throwing a party and no one showing up-- we ARE the party. If we do it, it will definitely be a big deal.--] (]) 05:03, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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My feeling is that there is a way to expand this idea into a long series of perhaps weekly "featured topics" that provide fair and timely highlights to a wide range of political and other social issues, and that by doing so we can combine political activism (i.e. by making people think, which people on all sides should think benefits their own side) but also preserve and enhance Misplaced Pages's reputation for neutrality. ] (]) 20:51, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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: +1 <span style="color:#666">– ]]</span> 23:26, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== ] (article)== |
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I'm working to get ] to readable prose size so it can be submitted as a ]. Any help with that is appreciated. <font style="padding:1px 2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 21:23, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:] is now at readable prose length, and I believe satisfies all the other requirements for a DYK article. Should someone do a review? The DYK fact is in the DYK section on ]. <font style="padding:1px 2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 05:46, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::I moved it to "On this day" per suggestions. <font style="padding:1px 2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 16:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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==Thinking strategically about the "Fighting Back"== |
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I think phrase "The Day We Fight Back" will be a hard sell to our community. Misplaced Pages doesn't 'fight', it doesn't normally 'take sides'-- mostly, it educates. |
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I would propose instead we call Misplaced Pages's effort "Surveillance Awareness Day" or "Surveillance Awareness initiative", or some other variant. |
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Obviously, still held on Feb 11 and still explicitly connected to the EFF/Reddit actions. Just a tweak in the wording. |
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As we look towards presenting this to the community, I can imagine some people skeptical of "fighting back" against surveillance. I have a harder time imagining that people will object to a special day where we make our readers aware of an issue the community deems important. --] (]) 04:51, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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: It makes sense to make it our own. Misplaced Pages has a unique presence on the web with our commitment to NPOV. An encyclopedia could participate in a way not done by any other media source/groups. I like "Surveillance Awareness Day". '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 05:09, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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==International content needed== |
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The current drafts are all very US-centric. Although the US's global surveillance role is certainly unique, we can't ignore global surveillance by other government and non-governmental entities. |
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Can anyone nominate content about other regimes/entities and their on-going abuses of mass surveillance? --] (]) |
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== Not yet Featured quality content == |
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#This is not enough time to get an article up to FA status. |
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#Heck, it is not enough time to assuredly get an article through FAC with 100% certainty in that time period, for an article of already high quality that doesn't need any more work or improvements. |
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#It's not feasible and a waste of time to focus on articles that aren't already ] quality for TFA for an event that is less than one month away. |
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#Strongly suggest the TFA portion of this discussion be limited to current ]s. |
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Cheers, |
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— ''']''' (]) 04:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:Cirt speaks wisdom. We can't ] on Featured Article status. Let's focus on featuring articles that already have featured status or are extremely likely to get to FA before Feb 1. --] (]) 11:26, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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==Creating a menu of options== |
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The guidelines for Feb 11 must be determined by consensus. Until that consensus is formed, we must prepare for all contingencies. |
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With that in mind, please review the draft ]. If your own proposed guidelines for Feb 11 are not represented, please add them! There are lots of ways to do this, and we want to find the ''best'' way. --] (]) 15:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Statement by Coin == |
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; Statement by Coin |
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My thought process (due to the limited amount of time we have to get this thing off the ground): I was thinking of utilising the already available content rather than rush to drag a lot of new stuff to FA level. Also, on another note, remember to not make the references too literal. We do not want an NSA attack page. Let's try to be creative with our choices for content, convering a wide range of issues across many different time periods and locations. Why have a picture of the NSA headquaters when you can include a striking historical image that represents what can happen when civil liberties are not upheld? Why clog the DYK space with references to NSA, when you can have a reference to a perhaps-obscure espionage story that will enlighten and entertain readers? Similarly, anything we do cover needs to remain un-editorialised. For example, IMO: |
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<small> |
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* ... That the first global wide area network was built beginning in 1981, for the ] surveillance system? {{tick}} |
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* ... That in 1988 a ] employee revealed the ] surveillance network when she "blew the whistle" on interception of a US senator's telephone calls? {{cross}} |
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</small> |
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:Second Coin's statement. We are in brainstorming phase-- the greater the diversity ideas we generate, the better our finished product will be. --] (]) 14:26, 15 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:About the red cross for the second item, is the expression "she 'blew the whistle' on" deemed too editorial, or is there another reason? How about "she told Congress about" (slightly inaccurage: she initially told one member of the Congress, who then started an investigation)? —] 02:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC) |
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---- |
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Moved this from the main page about this project to the talk page here. It was quite distracting sitting there at the top of the page. — ''']''' (]) 04:46, 17 January 2014 (UTC) |
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==In the news== |
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'''Proposal:''' This section be kept how it usually is in order to keep Misplaced Pages's audience up to date with the Olympics and other world events. {{strike|] can conceivably have an entry too}}.--] (]) 14:56, 14 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:I tend to agree that this section should run normally. We can't plan for what's going to be "in the news". --] (]) 00:45, 16 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::I realize that you seek to reframe the proposed event as one conveying the message "It's important to be aware of surveillance. Read these articles so you can make an informed decision about where you stand." But that ''won't'' be anyone's takeaway. |
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:::As I said, even if our special main page content is 100% neutral, presenting it in coordination with the "The Day We Fight Back" constitutes an endorsement of the underlying cause (and not merely an implicit one, as it was ''explicitly'' devised as a means of supporting the protest). —] 14:25, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Can we use an FA that has already been previously used at TFA? == |
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I don't think we should use an FA that has previously appeared at ]. |
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There is an easy way to see what has already appeared at TFA: |
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#Place this code on your .css subpage: |
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#:<pre>.has_been_on_main_page a { color: green; }</pre> |
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#Go to the page ] |
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#Then you will see that FAs that were already on the Main Page once before, appear in a green color. |
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#We cannot use those FAs highlighted in green. |
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Cheers, |
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— ''']''' (]) 16:57, 17 January 2014 (UTC) |
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---- |
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:That is, unless there is strong consensus that we ''could'' select an FA that has ''already'' appeared before at TFA. Thoughts? — ''']''' (]) 16:58, 17 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::For a themed day, I feel like we should probably use the '''Best''' featured article, rather than the '''Best featured article that hasn't already ever been used on mainpage". This might be a case to invoke ]. |
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::We need a strong consensus to do any of these, of course, so we'll find out what consensus will support. --] (]) 17:52, 17 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Okay, that sounds reasonable, I can get on board with that. Hopefully we can soon get a strong consensus for this idea. — ''']''' (]) 18:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::I'd really appreciate your feedback on the FAs-- I feel like once we have a couple ones that aren't controversial among us, we can use them as a 'for example' and then start soliciting wider input. --] (]) 19:11, 17 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Well, I provided some suggestions of FAs that have not yet been TFA... — ''']''' (]) 22:30, 17 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::If anybody thinks I'm going to suggest a special exception to TFA so that we can get a ''TV series'' featured because we like its POV, that's just not going to happen. If there's any IARing to be done here, it should be to get one of the main articles on NSA surveillance through the FAC process in a finite amount of time. ] (]) 15:02, 19 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Essay: How global surveillance affects Misplaced Pages == |
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* ] |
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Is there anyway we can link this essay with this project? -] (]) 22:16, 17 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:The fact that 1 in 6 journos self-censor now, as well as any details we have about spy agencies' interest in Misplaced Pages readers and editors, seem like essential additions to this project, although I'm not sure how it could be incorporated. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:38, 17 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Are we willing to include signals intelligence successes? == |
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I'm concerned that this proposal is implicitly advocating a particular viewpoint even if it does not do so explicitly (e.g. by calling the campaign "The Day We Fight Back"). The proposed links seem to overwhelmingly represent articles that highlight the dangers of overreach by intelligence agencies. There is very little representation of articles that highlight the successful use of signals intelligence or the geopolitical context that led to the development of signals intelligence capabilities. If the goal is to raise awareness of issues regarding surveillance so that our readers can form educated opinions, then we should also willing to highlight articles that highlight both sides of the story. To do otherwise would be contrary to our core values.] (]) 02:23, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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Some specific topics to consider: |
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# ], ] and other articles related to allied signals intelligence during World War II |
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# ], the NSA's successful effort to break Soviet codes, which revealed that a number of senior government officials and people involved in the Manhattan Project were Soviet agents (including ] and ]) |
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# ], ] and other efforts to disrupt the Iranian nuclear program |
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Yes, why not? We should highlight all sides of the issue. Our goal is to educate the public so that people can decide for themselves what sort of surveillance they would allow their government to do. ] <sup>]</sup> 02:34, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:{{ec}} When I first learned of this project, the topic had been chosen as "mass spying and privacy'. Now it's been changed to "global surveillance". My own preference would be for the topic to be only mass surveillance, excluding one government's spying upon another government or the breaking of military/diplomatic ciphers. Everyone's being surveilled now, not just soldiers and ambassadors; the current title of the project implies that we'll be asking for a soap-box to encourage people to think about that. |
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:I agree that we haven't found much about the benefits of mass surveillance. Perhaps we haven't looked thoroughly enough. Someone had proposed saying "Did you know...that due to increased security measures instituted post-9/11, many terrorist plots have been uncovered and foiled?" but we didn't find sources to support the statement. I did find ] which says {{quote|1=On July 31 NSA Deputy Director John Inglis conceded to the Senate that these intercepts had not been vital in stopping any terrorist attacks, but were "close" to vital in identifying and convicting four San Diego men for sending US$8,930 to Al-Shabaab, a militia that conducts terrorism in Somalia.}} |
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:I was going to get around to mentioning this success, but it would seem like damning with faint praise, wouldn't it? |
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:If there are noteworthy, documented examples of mass surveillance successes (or whatever the topic ends up as) but we don't include them in the material we propose to present, consensus is likely to be against us. —] 03:44, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::"excluding one government's spying upon another government or the breaking of military/diplomatic ciphers" constitutes ]. OF COURSE you "haven't found much about the benefits of mass surveillance" when you exclude from consideration all surveillance that serves a national security objective! The whole "debate" is over the extent to which incidental in-country surveillance is acceptable. There's no serious debate in the English speaking world over government surveillance that can't be justified as either crime prevention/investigation or countering a foreign challenge. Evidence of surveillance that has as its objective furthering the domestic political agenda of the party in power is evidence of a scandal, not evidence that provokes any "debate." If one's going to argue for moral equivalency between western democracies and their targets (China, Russia, al-Qaeda, etc) then of course it is far more difficult if not impossible to justify the NSA's activity.--] (]) 19:48, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::The ]/Olympic Games example, added after my comment, was sabotage. I don't know of any use of mass surveillance or SIGINT in its production. Also as far as I know, the breaking of the Japanese Purple code did not involve mass surveillance. If you know otherwise, adding it to ] or the Stuxnet article would be helpful. |
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:::I didn't mean to beg the question, rather I made the assumption that governments do not typically use mass surveillance to learn about other governments or their armies. An exception I hadn't thought of is spy satellites. If you have other counterexamples, they are on-topic and welcome. |
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:::If you disagree with the choice of privacy and mass surveillance as the topic, feel free to suggest a different topic. If you have examples related to either the current topic or your preferred topic, feel free to provide them. In programmes such as ], ] and ], it's interception of other governments' communications that appears to be incidental. {{quote|1=There's no serious debate in the English speaking world over government surveillance that can't be justified as either crime prevention/investigation or countering a foreign challenge.}} |
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:::Perhaps you meant "can" rather than "can't"? Regardless, feel free to provide justification for mass surveillance. —] 22:36, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:Jehochman says "Why not?", I might go even further to say "Yes, definitely". ]'s essential question is "Are we going to be balanced, or one-sided?" I think we definitely need some balance, though I don't know precisely what form it should take. --] (]) 06:51, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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==Milestone and status of the proposal== |
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So, we now how enough content to create a ] for Feb 11. It's an entirely arbitrary mockup, choosing content that seems leat controversial among the proposers we've had here so far, in my completely arbitrary and unimportant opinion. Obviously, actual content is chosen by consensus-- so it's just a mockup. |
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I think it may be time to start actively widening the circle of those involved, starting with relevant wikiprojects. --] (]) 10:50, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:Honestly, I think it's time for you to look for a fallback position. It's not that opposing surveillance isn't a great cause, but so is Misplaced Pages, and bending every rule to hack together a Main Page like that is just not a good idea. It smells like POV, yet it doesn't ''communicate'' our POV - what we want is the opposite of that. At ] I pointed out that ] (presently a sentence in Political positions of ] and ] (presently a sentence in ]) have not yet even been started. And days later, they still haven't been started -- even though they are two of very few things directly mentioned in the "The Day We Fight Back" website! Face it - we do ''not'' have the level of involvement and support we need to take the grandest lectern in the world and parade around for a day. What we can do is try to work within the rules, as they are sometimes bent - we can fish in those contentious waters off Gibraltar and try to feature a set of DYKs for the day. Right now I'm not even sure we'll get people to write ten or fifteen DYKs though. ] (]) 17:55, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Lack of support or involvement doesn't disturb me at this point-- virtually no one has heard about this yet, and the worst that can happen is the community chooses the status quo, which of course would be a fine option if that's where consensus lies. |
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:::::Planning for the status quo is easy, and after that, the next easiest option to be able to provide the option to show a mainpage-like message and that has reasonably enough relevant NPOV content in it. |
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:::::But more options will follow, and perhaps one will be worth implementing. --] (]) 18:31, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::Based on WNT's excellent advice, Petro and I have created ]. It's still start-class, please improve it! --] (]) 21:16, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::*It could be checked for: wording, structure, and bias. I can fill it out in the next few days, but do feel free. It's the beginning of a very interesting article. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:28, 19 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::''']''' is using an FA that already has appeared at TFA. Do we have strong community consensus to override ] in this manner? — ''']''' (]) 18:20, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Well, firstly, please immediately feel free to replace the FA section of the Arbitrary mockup with a section that you'd be more comfortable with. The mockup was arbitrary, just to show "where we're at". |
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:::"Do we have strong community consensus to override ] in this manner?"?? Do we have strong community consensus for any of this!? hehe. However strictly or loosely we adhere to ], we're clearly departing from the status quo in a way that every editor should have a say in. |
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:::So I've been trying to create a 'menu of options' that we can present, and not surprisingly, the easiest option to produce is one that involves using a page that was already at TFA once in 2007. |
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:::If sticking to the "No repeats" rule is important to you, we'll just be sure to include that as an option. :) --] (]) 18:39, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::I've taken a stab at doing writeup and blurb for ], a FA which has NOT been to TFA before. Please feel free to improve it and it you like it better, use it on the Arbitrary Mockup. --] (]) 18:52, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Request for peer review == |
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I'm trying to make the ] a featured list before Feb 11 so that we can include it for our project. As time is running short, is someone willing to help me to do a peer review? That would be very much appreciated. Thanks! |
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* '''Please review it here''': ] |
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-] (]) 22:58, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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* You do know 11FEB14 is a Tuesday, right? Featured lists don't run on the Main Page on Tuesdays. smh. --] (]) 20:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::ColonelHenry, we're proposing a significant change to what the Feb 11 page looks like, and we'll need to get a consensus to do that. There are good reasons to object to a proposal, but it doesn't illuminate just to re-iterate this would be different than status quo. Hehe-- we know it's different, that's why it's a proposal. |
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::We are definitely shooting for shooting for top-quality content that is Verifiable and written from a NPOV. But ] is relevant. NOTADVOCACY is a good objection, NOTONTUESDAY isn't. :) --] (]) 20:57, 19 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== NPOV == |
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I see nothing that is close to NPOV on this proposal. Have you no shame in taking Misplaced Pages in this direction?] (]) 20:02, 19 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:If we fail to propose content that is written from a NPOV, then the proposal will fail to achieve consensus. We're not "taking Misplaced Pages" anywhere-- we're just brainstorming options to be considered by the Misplaced Pages community. --] (]) 21:07, 19 January 2014 (UTC); |
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Hector-Get your point but Misplaced Pages Community reaches consensus on many issues based on personal or political viewpoint and not factual information. The internet and most digital systems were created in a way that it did not ensure privacy.] (]) 21:31, 19 January 2014 (UTC) |
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==On using Featured Articles that has previously appeared at TFA on our Feb 11 content== |
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There is an ongoing debate about this. (Discussion moved from project page to talk) |
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:These articles were already at TFA once before. — {{cross}}''']''' (]) 04:54, 16 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:I think it's okay to propose an article, even if it was already at TFA. {{tick}} --] (]) 19:16, 17 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:I'm not strenuously opposed to the idea of occasional "theme days" like this, but it seems that they should disrupt the flow as little as possible. Why break rules like this when it's not even necessary? {{cross}} ] <sup>]</sup>⁄<sub>]</sub> <small>• 21:04, 17 January 2014 (UTC)</small> |
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::Because we can't know which options the community will support ahead of time. So we're generating the widest possible menu of options for them. Just cause we give them the option to select a repeat for Feb 11 doesn't mean they'll actually decide to do so. --] (]) 09:42, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::It's quite simple - whatever comes out of this proposal, as the TFA coordinator I will not be running any FA for a second (or in Obama's case, third) time as TFA. ]] 20:48, 19 January 2014 (UTC)}} |
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::::As TFA coordinator, you don't have the authority to run a FA for a second time, so you speak wisdom. The community as a whole, however, may choose to display a re-run, assuming we got sufficient consensus for it. --] (]) 21:47, 19 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Actually, as TFA coordinator, I think you'll find that not only I ''do'' have that authority but I in fact have the final say on what appears at TFA, for better or for worse. (You will never get a community consensus to run a TFA twice for a reason such as this either, and you would do well to listen to the views of Cirt and GeeJo even if you think you can ignore me.) I'm certainly not going to be exercising the exceptional power to run TFAs twice for any of these suggestions on 11th Feb so please save your limited editing time for coming up with something more useful, like actually finishing a proposal so that the community can shoot it down in flames. ]] 22:16, 19 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::'''I in fact have the final say on what appears at TFA''' If you believe this, then I see why you would oppose any proposal that argued content should be determined by Community Consensus in some circumstances. I can tell this proposal really angers you, and I'm sorry. Lots of people I respected asked me to help work on it, and I won't be upset in the slightest if nothing comes of it. But I am gravely upset that the mere discussion of such a proposal is so troubling to you. --] (]) 22:23, 19 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::<small>I replied to this at HectorMoffet's talk page, if anyone is interested. ]] 23:39, 19 January 2014 (UTC)</small> |
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===Important question=== |
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Bench asked me,"Why are you ignoring the established method for the community to discuss TFA appearances - WP:TFAR?" |
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The answer is I don't think ] is something we can seriously do as if it's "just like april fools". We've never used that url in this way before, and I don't think it's somethin a few insiders should decide, whether they be at TFAR or UT:Jimmy Wales. |
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So, despite stylistic similarities, I don't even really see the custom content we'd display as an actual "main page" in the traditional, status quo sense of the word. It's custom content, created to send a custom message, timed to coincide with with a outright protest run by our allies. We need to alert our readers this isn't a status quo regular page. Indeed, we may not even STORE the custom content at "Main"-- it might be stored somewhere else entirely. |
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So we keep all our options available. In the event the proposal does get support, who is to say how much weight the supporters will give to the suggestion that we not use a re-run in the Feb 11 content? |
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Either way, this thing has NOTBUREAUCRACY all over it. I understand people who are objecting on the grounds of NOTADVOCATE, but I don't get the objection about "normal mainpage rules don't allow re-runs" or "normal mainpage rules don't allow lists on tuesday". Normal mainpages don't coincide with online protests-- this isn't a normal mainpage! |
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We may do it, we may not-- but I can't fathom reruns or "no lists on tuesday" being decisive in the minds of too many people. --] (]) 23:41, 19 January 2014 (UTC) |
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===concern about role of non-proposers=== |
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:Bencherlite expressed opposition to the proposal and advised you to focus on ideas that actually stand a chance of being implemented instead of wasting time and effort on those that don't. You responded with the following: |
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:{{quotation|"So that answers your question about why I don't value your opinion on the proposal at this stage-- you oppose it here and there, you oppose it anywhere--- so why in the world would we look to you for crafting the proposal?"<br />}} |
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:Does that sound familiar to you? ], right down to the '']'' reference. After apologizing to me for disregarding my input, you've once again stated (this time even more explicitly) that you don't value the opinion of someone who doesn't support the proposal. I find this quite disheartening. —] 03:36, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::I am sincerely sorry whenever I unintentionally upset someone. But I do not think it is controversial to give preference to the proposers of a proposal when writing a proposal. --] (]) 03:43, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Please see ]. |
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:::You're dismissing helpful advice from experienced Wikipedians, whom you perceive as outsiders because we've challenged your beliefs and assumptions. —] 03:57, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Now you've added the subheading "concern about role of non-proposers". That you've sorted the discussion's participants into two camps ("proposers" and "non-proposers", i.e. "with you" and "against you") is a major part of the problem. —] 09:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::David, you aren't "against me"-- you're raising a very valid concern-- ]. You imagine I have some agenda, but I really don't. I think the community should be asked about the idea of doing something special for Feb 11, and I don't know what the "right" answer is beyond that. I didn't come up with this idea, I just wanted to help with it. The one thing I ''do'' know is that this proposal is a departure from mainpage status quo policy. So the objection that this proposal deviates from "business as usual" holds no weight-- the whole proposal is predicated on the idea that Feb 11 will be "special". We either generate a consensus to change things on Feb 11 or we don't-- but we don't slip it into the traditional main page processes as if it's business as usual. --] (]) 10:10, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::You seem to be conflating separate issues. Yes, I have ]-related concerns, but I'm not referring to them above. This isn't about ''what'' we're arguing; it's about your out-of-hand dismissal. |
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:::::Some of us, despite opposing the proposal, sincerely seek to assist in the effort to assemble a proposal and present it to the community at large. We ''do'' have a preferred outcome, but it doesn't negate the importance of gauging consensus. |
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:::::You might respect our opposition (which you acknowledge stems from valid concerns), but because we're "non-proposers", you "don't value opinions" on how to shape the proposal (which you've summarily disregarded). |
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:::::When someone tries to explain that an idea is unrealistic or ill-advised, you interpret this as a claim that it's ''impossible'' to implement. You continually defend your approach by pointing out that a "special" main page can contain any content under the sun (leaving nothing off-limits from being thrown into the mix), thereby ignoring advice on why it would be more constructive to focus on changes that the proposal's advocates might have ''some'' non-negligible chance of bringing about before the clock ticks down. "You're a non-proposer, so stand back and let us work" (scare quotes) is ''not'' a helpful attitude. We're all Wikipedians here. —] 10:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::I think we're really getting somewhere. I hear you. |
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::::::I've been very concerned about people LIMITING options that will be presented to the community. But what I'm hearing from you is that we need to cultivate options that will be more palatable to the broader community as a whole. |
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::::::I would sincerely, not in a flippant way, but deeply sincerely, encourage you to start your own proposal for a way to deal with Feb 11. I say sincerely, it's '''very''' possible you would do a better job than me on putting all this together. |
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::::::Make a fork and show me how it's done. And again-- I firmly believe you really can show me how it's done! :) . |
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::::::I'm all about lots of options so the community can make the best possible choice. I bet your option, accepted or not, would help the process greatly. --] (]) 10:57, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::I know from past experience that forking a proposal is one of the best ways to ensure that consensus isn't reached, especially when time is of the essence. Collaboration is the only viable approach. |
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:::::::And as we've discussed, I don't want us to run ''any'' special content on February 11, so if I were to outline my preferred course of action, it would amount to nothing more than the status quo. Obviously, that view is incompatible with the general concept (irrespective of the precise direction that the proposal takes), and I certainly don't suggest that it be reflected here. I'm simply asking you to recognize the distinction between opposition and constructive criticism. Those of us who oppose the idea are in no position to serve as advocates for its implementation, but that doesn't mean that our opinions have no value whatsoever. —] 11:33, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::(ec) Please, don't even get out the tape measures, there's no need. We really don't have the mass at this time to claim a "consensus" for change, nor the time to get one, nor is it in ''our'' best interest to do so. If we somehow managed to talk them into it and hit them with a hodgepodge of marginally privacy/government related articles with a common POV theme tying together the Main Page (as in the mockup) all we're going to do is tick off a lot of people and damage Misplaced Pages's reputation. However, if articles are written and available, it won't matter ''what'' day of the year it is, they'll always be out there educating people. Never forget that Misplaced Pages ''itself'' is already a good cause. ] (]) 03:50, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:: Speaking of getting "Today's Featured Article", don't forget that you have somewhere else you can be featured from -- the site of "The Day We Fight Back". If you can line up some people to hack together a portal for the day, you can have your ''own'' Main Page and stock it however you like, get it linked to and from their site, and try to get it out to go viral on the social networks. ] (]) 03:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::"We really don't have the mass at this time to claim a "consensus" for change, nor the time to get one" -- we certainly don't have a consensus, and indeed the consensus may well be for the status quo-- and that'd be fine. But we definitely have time to reach consensus. If we get that far, sitewide discussion should take a week at most. It may all be a waste of time, but I've learned alot, so have some others. |
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:::I think people assume my work here is predicated on the presumption that proposal succeed. It isn't-- I'm perfectly happy to see it rejected if that's what should happen. We're asking the community a question, all answers are okay from my point of view. --] (]) 04:09, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::: Actually, it is very rare for them to even start to close an RFC in less than 30 days, and an opposed policy change would be put to one. ] (]) 04:13, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::: Above my pay grade-- I'm just here to offer the options. --] (]) 04:35, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::: 30 days is just convention for minimum length as most RfCs aren't time-critical—I think the blackout discussion and polling took place over 3 or 4 days. Still, I and others have recommended starting the discussion sooner rather than later. ''']'''] 13:18, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::And let's keep in mind that the blackout essentially entailed flipping a switch. Presenting special content is much more complicated. —] 13:24, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::Indeed, it is. Now, let's take DYK for instance. First we would need a centralized discussion on whether the main page content should be changed as part of a protest/awareness day. If so, we would need a discussion on whether some of the ordinary DYK rules should be changed (for instance the requirement that articles shall be new or recently five-fold expanded); then after these two discussions, we would need time to evaluate individual nominations for core policies; including neutrality issues and proper sourcing both for the articles and the suggested hooks. I think you pretty much need to start the centralized discussion right today, if you shall have ''any'' chances at all to get this done to February, 11.Regards, ] (]) 13:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Honestly, I think we can get two panels of seven DYKs each by February 1 fair and square, going by every rule in the book, ''provided'' we have a dozen or more people willing to participate. And doing that - adding articles about 14 mass surveillance related topics to the encyclopedia - that is what really matters. The 11th is going to come and go and things will be the same, but if we make those 14 articles for every person interested to read, that stays. ] (]) 21:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Backup plan == |
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If the main page can't be changed, can we create a separate page for our content instead? -] (]) 15:27, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*Where? Beware ]. ]] 16:26, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:* As I suggested in the "What you can do" section, you can update ] or create a new ]. The WP page for this starts with a quote about how "A message is most effective when it matches the format of the media", but somewhere people seem to be forgetting this. ] (]) 21:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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== Hard work == |
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Thank you all for your dedication to this project. I understand that some of the existing Misplaced Pages processes resist changing to accommodate the goals of this project. I recommend working within existing processes, rather than requesting exceptions. For instance, we should find a suitable featured article and nicely ask that it be featured. We should not ask the FA director to suspend the usual rules. Likewise, for DYK, we should have a list of articles that could be created or expanded, do the work within the 5 day period and submit them. If we are going to ask any special favors, they would be to coordinate the timing of appearances, nothing more. I hope this advice helps to reduce frictions. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:38, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:Strongly agree with this advice by {{u|Jehochman}}. Good thoughts. — ''']''' (]) 18:08, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:"some of the existing Misplaced Pages processes resist changing to accommodate the goals of this project" because they are resistant to using Misplaced Pages as a political vehicle! May I suggest finding your own website for engaging in activism ("Libertarianopedia?") instead of hijacking this one?--] (]) 19:53, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::Whenever I hear someone talking about hijacking a page, it makes me suspect that they think they are the pilot. See ]. My philosophy is to find out what the consensus is and follow it, whether I agree or not. We went though this "using Misplaced Pages as a political vehicle" argument with SOPA. The consensus is that we should use Misplaced Pages as a political vehicle if the issue is a threat to Misplaced Pages. Sopa was a threat, and so is this. --] (]) 21:21, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Yeah, but can we ''prove'' it? Can we point to one person, even in China or Russia, who has been taken down the police station and beaten because he looked at our article on methamphetamine or Falun Gong or gay rights? How do we show the surveillance really ''is'' affecting Misplaced Pages? That's what we ought to feature. ] (]) 21:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Firstly, the Wikimedia Foundation received legal advice (from attorneys) that SOPA and PIPA directly threatened Misplaced Pages's ability to operate. What comparable evidence of a threat to Misplaced Pages exists in this instance? |
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:::Secondly, while both are forms of political advocacy, a material distinction exists between an indiscriminate blackout (which insulates the actual encyclopedic content from the protest) and the selective compilation and presentation of relevant articles (which accomplishes the opposite). —] 22:03, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Maybe you have a point there -- nonetheless there are things like ], a project dedicated to one particular company that gets one of its video games featured as TFA, like clockwork, every six months since the early 2000s. There was also a flap about a Gibraltar project that did the same. We want to be pure, but we don't have to be any purer than Misplaced Pages itself. If you want to propose a general reform that rules out Square Enix releases on the Main Page I'll definitely give it consideration. ] (]) 22:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:], this is at its genesis your idea, we've mostly been brainstorming what your idea might look like. I've been operating under the assumption that Feb 11 would be an Ignore All Rules day after presenting such a proposal to the entire community. Now that you've clarified, you should probably do a rewrite of the proposal lede, perhaps do a title change. Then you or someone else needs to take the lead on the proposal process. I'm still happy to help, but I'm definitely not the person who could interface with the main page community-- I didn't know any of their rules before this proposal, I still don't know most of them, I've never planned for their rules to apply, and I've said as much. Any involvement I have going forward will probably bias them against the proposed content. --] (]) 22:27, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::Well, the thing about POV is that there are ''a few'' illegitimate ways of advancing it, such as biasing articles and posting lengthy diatribes to their Talk pages. But there are also many ''legitimate'' ways to express it, like contributing image uploads from a demonstration, nominating an article, photo, or other media to feature, working on the article to make it featureable quality, starting an article about a notable topic and requesting a DYK, creating a WikiProject, creating a Portal, creating relevant See Also and infobox links to direct viewers between related topics, and creating/putting userboxes on your user page. Misplaced Pages reconciles the need to allow people to inform others about what they think is important with the need to develop neutral and comprehensive articles that present all sides of the story. Trust me, you're not sunk. The point of a demonstration is to ''demonstrate'' something. Demonstrating that you can throw away the rules of the encyclopedia to re-feature an article about Gerald Ford isn't proving much useful at all. Demonstrating that you can get together a group of people and write quality reviews of a dozen or more articles from scratch, in a few weeks, for the whole world to be able to consult for many years afterward, would be impressive. That's honestly how I see it. ] (]) 22:40, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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*I thought I should have chosen a different word than "hijack". Is "replace" all right? —] 22:48, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Editconflict, (to WNT) Well, we certainly have time to get a dozen articles created for DYK-- but who is going to decide whether it's okay to include them on Feb 11? My thinking had previously gone (1) We need to consult the whole community for a change like this, and (2) If the whole community is consulted, they are not bound by Mainpage rules. If we don't present to the whole community, who decides it's okay to schedule them on Feb 11? A half-dozen mainpage insiders? I don't know how cool I would be with them making such a change of such magnitude. --] (]) 22:50, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::: Look at the end of ]. There's a "special occasion holding area" for DYKs that are accepted. It's not new policy, so there shouldn't be any great trouble with it. ] (]) 22:53, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Yeah, but has "special occasion" ever been used in this way before? This isn't like the olympics, this is timed to coincide with an online protest. As I told the guy who owns TFA yesterday-- I don't think they have the authority to do a change like this on their own. --] (]) 22:56, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::Olympics, The Day We Fight Back, what's the difference? It's two groups ostensibly in the public interest, ours a whole lot more than theirs. Sure, the Olympics has more money, but that shouldn't be a policy distinction. Besides, even if they did try to deny you the special occasion status granted to others, that would only generate support and sympathy, so you win either way. ] (]) 23:14, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::I don't think I'd count that as a "win", I worry I'd count that as them correctly recognizing the limitations of status quo consensus for main page content. --] (]) 23:20, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
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Various proposals and discussion of exceptional special events for February 11 are available in the page histories and archives of this talk page and the parent page. However, most if not all ongoing activities are part of WP:WikiProject Mass Surveillance and should be discussed there. Wnt (talk) 17:41, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
I have not been following the discussion closely, but I'm aware that it generated a great amount of controversy and I was under the impression that the proposal got scrapped because we failed to push a few of our featured articles onto the main page. I notice there's also a significant amount of opposition coming from users who claimed that the proposal amounted to political activism. Taking a second look at things, I'm assuming that's the real reason why it failed.
In any case, I strongly recommend adding a brief and concise summary of why the proposal failed, so that future editors would be aware of what exactly went wrong.
-A1candidate (talk) 17:44, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
