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| == Good Work == | |||
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| ==Proposal for 2014== | |||
| You took ] by Acjelen, and wrote an article, of which, we can all be proud. | |||
| I agree with In Ictu Oculi that we should avoid "fringe theories" about this topic. The fact that the was syncretistic and composed in Greek many years after the time of the Disciples makes it unlikely there is any connection with the Indeed the GHeb traditions of Jesus' pre-existence, his coming into the world, a mighty Power in Heaven named Michael and the Power which came into the world called Mary (which had Christ in it's womb for only seven months) etc etc pretty much precludes this possibility. I would suggest we remove "Unbalanced tag" and do as Ignocrates suggested. I have little to add. All in all good work on a difficult topic! Happy New Year! ] (]) 13:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :There are no "fringe theories" in this article I am aware of, per ]; however, ] is always subject to interpretation. I welcome any suggestions for ways to further refine and improve the article content. ] (]) 18:00, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Re|Ret.Prof}}Although I am no believer in Jesus of Nazareth as Israel's Messiah, since, according to Jewish understanding, the true Messiah will bring peace into our troubled world, I still wish to respond to your comment here, where you said: "the ''Gospel of the Hebrews'' was syncretistic and composed in ] many years after the time of the Disciples." I think that you should reconsider the words of ] who wrote (''de. vir. ill.'' III): "Matthew, also called Levi, an apostle after having been a publican, was the '''first''' to compose a gospel of the Messiah in Judea '''in Hebrew letters and words''' for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed…" Now if the Jews who believed in Jesus (i.e. the ] and the ]) read from the Aramaic gospel of Matthew, is it then conceivable to think that they would have abandoned Matthew's original work for a mere Aramaic translation of the Greek Evangelion which is also a translation? This is nonsense, my friend! Moreover, when Jerome says in another place that "a good many" call it the authentic text of Matthew, he was simply telling us in his own words that there was an oral tradition in his day regarding the book's authorship and authenticity, saying that it was widely known to be the '''original''' text of Matthew's gospel.] (]) 20:17, 7 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thanks David, your position is as always well thought out...and I tend to agree. I am also glad we are able to our religious views aside and focus on the historical evidence in an objective fashion. I am preparing some draft edits in my sandbox and would be honored if in a couple of weeks you could review them! השלום יהיה איתך - ] (]) 13:25, 26 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ==Virgin Birth story?== | |||
| --] | |||
| An old, 2016 version of the Misplaced Pages entry said: ''"There is ancient citation evidence from historians who have stated that the original Gospel of the Hebrews did not have the virgin birth narrative which was interpolated between the 2nd and 4th centuries by Greek pre Catholic priests."'' I am curious where the editor got this idea from. It's worth noting this quote: "The night of the birth of Christ the fair there were seventeen miracles of the world. Delightfully are they related to you in the gospel of the Hebrews."(SOURCE: Book of Uí Máine in the Royal Irish Academy). I suspect Misplaced Pages might have been just imposing the Ebionites' beliefs in their redacted Gospel of the Ebionites into the earlier Gospel of the Hebrews, because Epiphanius said the Ebionites took out the virgin birth story from G.Matthew.] (]) 01:08, 23 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == "Brake bread" == | |||
| == I will be merging in some material == | |||
| Is that a misspelling in the original of the quoted section that we faithfully copy (Number 7 in Contents), or do we seriously have "brake" instead of "break" in the context of ]. I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something, like an archaic form of "break".]] 07:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC) | |||
| Having secured the agreement of ] and ], I will be working on merging in what material can be kept from ] into ]. The reason for the merge is that "Gospel of the Hebrews" is the only term current in contemporary English-language scholarship and that "authentic Matthew" is not a title but a description, the title being given by Jerome elsewhere as "Gospel of the Hebrews" (''Evangelium quod Hebraeorum''). I will take care to cite sources and remain NPOV. Please see the work in progress at ] and comment ]. Thank you for your attention. --] 08:29, 23 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :{{U|Heironymous Rowe}}, "Brake" is the old past tense of "break" (instead of "broke"). It's like "spake" instead of "spoke". Cf. the ] ], p. 334, "For in the night in which he was betrayed, he took bread; and when he had given thanks, he '''brake''' it...".--] (]) 16:00, 20 June 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::Gotcha. Suspected the possibility, wanted to confirm that before "fixing" it. ]] 16:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == "Shekhina" vs. "Mother" == | |||
| == Gospel of the Hebrews on wikisource == | |||
| {{ping|Newimpartial}}, While the source does, indeed, say that Jesus called the Holy Spirit "his Mother," the word "Shekhina" is NOT used in that source at all. Therefore, the redirect / link is misleading. I have left the wording stand as it is, without redirecting it to "Shekhina", which, as noted, in Hebrew sources has the more distinct translation of "Divine Presence."] (]) 13:51, 7 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| I have compiled all the possible references to the Gospel of the Hebrews on ]. It can serve as a reference for our discussions here, and as a place to link from the article ]. --] 11:23, 24 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| : I'm fine with that, but would also be happy to see others weigh in. ] (]) 14:00, 7 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::By the way, anyone who knows Hebrew can tell you that there is a difference between "Holy Spirit" ({{Script/Hebrew|'''רוח הקודש'''}}) = ''ruach ha-qodesh'', and the word "Shekhina" ({{Script/Hebrew|'''שכינה'''}}), which latter is found in our Talmud (''Baba Bathra'' 25a) and means simply "Divine Presence." We say, "The Divine Presence is everywhere." Meaning, there is a little of God's presence to be seen everywhere. However, the "Holy Spirit" is a more specific thing, and found with the prophets of God who can prophesy about futurities.] (]) 14:22, 7 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == "Jewish Christian" == | |||
| == Quotes from scholars on the Gospel of the Hebrews == | |||
| I don't understand the initial description of this text as a "Jewish Christian" gospel. Is it not the case that the four canonical gospels are "Jewish Christian"? Or some portion of them?] (]) 18:59, 13 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
| (Previous talk archived, to focus on the new version of the article.) | |||
| : - see the article ] - cheers - ] (]) 20:32, 13 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
| I have compiled a collection of quotes from various scholars on the Gospel of the Hebrews ]. This is certainly not a proposed article draft. Rather, I am putting all these quotes up so that others can see what I am working with. Please let me know what you think of the material and what direction you think the article should take. What conclusions should be reported and how? I'd like to get some feedback before I proceed to write the revised article. --] 19:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == redirect resurrected as article == | |||
| Someone who knows something about the subject, please see ]. Thanks. ]<font color="#008000">]</font>]] 02:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC) | |||
| What objection would you have to putting the material about the “authority” of the Gospel of Matthew (original) under the article ], if it is not already there? | |||
| It seems to me that an article on conspiracy should focus on the conspiracy. I think that that would make a much better article. ] 17:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I will have a go on both of the above ! --] 06:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Added by MeBee== | |||
| Both articles seem to be lacking those facts that to point to the ''Gospel of Hebrews'' being the only Gospel to be written by ''Matthew''. Since no copy of The] has survived, the only source we have is the Church Fathers. | |||
| === How Many Hebrew Gospels? === | |||
| ''The Church Fathers write that there was only one Hebrew Gospel.'' | |||
| " They call it the ], for in truth '''Matthew''' alone in the New Testament expounded and declared the '''Gospel in Hebrew''' using '''Hebrew script'''." Epiphanius, The Panarion | |||
| === Authorship === | |||
| ''The Church Fathers cite that Matthew wrote The Gospel of the Hebrews'' | |||
| "'''Matthew''' collected the teachings of Jesus (ta logia) in '''the Hebrew language''' and everyone translated them as best he could. Papius also gives another story of a woman accused of many sins before the Lord, in the ]." Eusebius, Church History. | |||
| "'''Matthew''' also issued a written ] in their own language while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies | |||
| "The very first account to be written was by '''Matthew''', once a tax collector but later an apostle of Jesus Christ. Matthew published it for the converts from Judaism and composed it in '''Hebrew letters'''." Eusebius, Church History. | |||
| === Why? === | |||
| ''It was needed, as Matthew was about to leave.'' | |||
| "They (the Apostles) were led to write only under the pressure of necessity. '''Matthew''', who had first preached '''the Gospel in Hebrew''', when on the point of going to other nations, committed the Gospel to writing in his native language. Therefore he supplied the written word to make up for the lack of his own presence to those from whom he was sent." Eusebius, Church History. | |||
| "'''Matthew''', also called Levi, who used to be a tax collector and later an apostle, composed the Gospel of Christ, which was first published in Judea in '''Hebrew script''' for the sake of those of the circumcision." | |||
| Jerome, On Illustrious Men | |||
| ===History of this work === | |||
| "Pantaenus was one of those, and is said to have gone to India. It is reported that among the Christians there that he had found '''the Gospel of Matthew'''. This had anticipated his own arrival, for Bartholomew, one of the apostles, had preached to them, and left with them the writings of Matthew '''in Hebrew''', which they had preserved till that time. After many good deeds, Pantaenus finally became the head of the School in Alexandria, and expounded the treasures of divine doctrine both orally and in writing." | |||
| Eusebius, Church History. | |||
| '''"Matthew''', also called Levi, who used to be a tax collector and later an apostle, composed the Gospel of Christ, which was first published in Judea in '''Hebrew script''' for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed. | |||
| This Gospel was afterwards translated into Greek (and the Greek has been lost) though by what author uncertain. | |||
| The '''Hebrew original''' has been preserved to this present day in the library of Caesarea, which Pamphilus diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having this volume transcribed for me by the '''Nazarenes of Beroea''', Syria, who use it." Jerome, On Illustrious Men 3 | |||
| "In the ], written in the Chaldee and Syriac language but in '''Hebrew script''', and '''used by the Nazarenes''' to this day (I mean the Gospel of the Apostles, or, as it is generally maintained, '''the Gospel of Matthew''', a copy of which is in the library at Caesarea)" Jerome, Against Pelagius | |||
| === Size === | |||
| "It is important to note that the ] is 2200 lines, 300 fewer than '''Greek Matthew'''." Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople, in his Stichometry | |||
| === Authentic? === | |||
| "In the Gospel which the '''Nazarenes''' and '''Ebionites''' use which we have recently translated from '''Hebrew''' to Greek, and which most people call The ] " Jerome, Commentary on Matthew | |||
| " They call it the ], for in truth '''Matthew''' alone in the New Testament expounded and declared the''' Gospel in Hebrew''' using '''Hebrew script'''." Epiphanius, The Panarion | |||
| *http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?postid=1495939#post1495939 | |||
| *http://pedia.nodeworks.com/A/AU/AUT/Authentic_Matthew/ | |||
| ==Response to MeBee's above comments== | |||
| MeBee, are you a sockpuppet of ], because your writing style looks extremely similar. ? ] 22:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC) | |||
| At any rate, I think your argument is (a) worthless, (b) extremely contrived to the extent that no serious academic would even accept it for review, and (c) original research. ] 22:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC) | |||
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Proposal for 2014
I agree with In Ictu Oculi that we should avoid "fringe theories" about this topic. The fact that the Gospel of the Hebrews was syncretistic and composed in Greek many years after the time of the Disciples makes it unlikely there is any connection with the Hypothetical Hebrew Gospel. Indeed the GHeb traditions of Jesus' pre-existence, his coming into the world, a mighty Power in Heaven named Michael and the Power which came into the world called Mary (which had Christ in it's womb for only seven months) etc etc pretty much precludes this possibility. I would suggest we remove "Unbalanced tag" and do as Ignocrates suggested. I have little to add. All in all good work on a difficult topic! Happy New Year! Ret.Prof (talk) 13:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- There are no "fringe theories" in this article I am aware of, per WP:FRINGE; however, WP:WEIGHT is always subject to interpretation. I welcome any suggestions for ways to further refine and improve the article content. Ignocrates (talk) 18:00, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- @Ret.Prof:Although I am no believer in Jesus of Nazareth as Israel's Messiah, since, according to Jewish understanding, the true Messiah will bring peace into our troubled world, I still wish to respond to your comment here, where you said: "the Gospel of the Hebrews was syncretistic and composed in Greek many years after the time of the Disciples." I think that you should reconsider the words of Jerome who wrote (de. vir. ill. III): "Matthew, also called Levi, an apostle after having been a publican, was the first to compose a gospel of the Messiah in Judea in Hebrew letters and words for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed…" Now if the Jews who believed in Jesus (i.e. the Ebionites and the Nazoraeans) read from the Aramaic gospel of Matthew, is it then conceivable to think that they would have abandoned Matthew's original work for a mere Aramaic translation of the Greek Evangelion which is also a translation? This is nonsense, my friend! Moreover, when Jerome says in another place that "a good many" call it the authentic text of Matthew, he was simply telling us in his own words that there was an oral tradition in his day regarding the book's authorship and authenticity, saying that it was widely known to be the original text of Matthew's gospel.Davidbena (talk) 20:17, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks David, your position is as always well thought out...and I tend to agree. I am also glad we are able to our religious views aside and focus on the historical evidence in an objective fashion. I am preparing some draft edits in my sandbox and would be honored if in a couple of weeks you could review them! השלום יהיה איתך - Ret.Prof (talk) 13:25, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Ret.Prof:Although I am no believer in Jesus of Nazareth as Israel's Messiah, since, according to Jewish understanding, the true Messiah will bring peace into our troubled world, I still wish to respond to your comment here, where you said: "the Gospel of the Hebrews was syncretistic and composed in Greek many years after the time of the Disciples." I think that you should reconsider the words of Jerome who wrote (de. vir. ill. III): "Matthew, also called Levi, an apostle after having been a publican, was the first to compose a gospel of the Messiah in Judea in Hebrew letters and words for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed…" Now if the Jews who believed in Jesus (i.e. the Ebionites and the Nazoraeans) read from the Aramaic gospel of Matthew, is it then conceivable to think that they would have abandoned Matthew's original work for a mere Aramaic translation of the Greek Evangelion which is also a translation? This is nonsense, my friend! Moreover, when Jerome says in another place that "a good many" call it the authentic text of Matthew, he was simply telling us in his own words that there was an oral tradition in his day regarding the book's authorship and authenticity, saying that it was widely known to be the original text of Matthew's gospel.Davidbena (talk) 20:17, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Virgin Birth story?
An old, 2016 version of the Misplaced Pages entry said: "There is ancient citation evidence from historians who have stated that the original Gospel of the Hebrews did not have the virgin birth narrative which was interpolated between the 2nd and 4th centuries by Greek pre Catholic priests." I am curious where the editor got this idea from. It's worth noting this quote: "The night of the birth of Christ the fair there were seventeen miracles of the world. Delightfully are they related to you in the gospel of the Hebrews."(SOURCE: Book of Uí Máine in the Royal Irish Academy). I suspect Misplaced Pages might have been just imposing the Ebionites' beliefs in their redacted Gospel of the Ebionites into the earlier Gospel of the Hebrews, because Epiphanius said the Ebionites took out the virgin birth story from G.Matthew.Rakovsky (talk) 01:08, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
"Brake bread"
Is that a misspelling in the original of the quoted section that we faithfully copy (Number 7 in Contents), or do we seriously have "brake" instead of "break" in the context of breaking bread. I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something, like an archaic form of "break".Heiro 07:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Heironymous Rowe, "Brake" is the old past tense of "break" (instead of "broke"). It's like "spake" instead of "spoke". Cf. the episcopal Book of Common Prayer, p. 334, "For in the night in which he was betrayed, he took bread; and when he had given thanks, he brake it...".--Ermenrich (talk) 16:00, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Gotcha. Suspected the possibility, wanted to confirm that before "fixing" it. Heiro 16:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
"Shekhina" vs. "Mother"
@Newimpartial:, While the source does, indeed, say that Jesus called the Holy Spirit "his Mother," the word "Shekhina" is NOT used in that source at all. Therefore, the redirect / link is misleading. I have left the wording stand as it is, without redirecting it to "Shekhina", which, as noted, in Hebrew sources has the more distinct translation of "Divine Presence."Davidbena (talk) 13:51, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
- I'm fine with that, but would also be happy to see others weigh in. Newimpartial (talk) 14:00, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
- By the way, anyone who knows Hebrew can tell you that there is a difference between "Holy Spirit" (רוח הקודש) = ruach ha-qodesh, and the word "Shekhina" (שכינה), which latter is found in our Talmud (Baba Bathra 25a) and means simply "Divine Presence." We say, "The Divine Presence is everywhere." Meaning, there is a little of God's presence to be seen everywhere. However, the "Holy Spirit" is a more specific thing, and found with the prophets of God who can prophesy about futurities.Davidbena (talk) 14:22, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
"Jewish Christian"
I don't understand the initial description of this text as a "Jewish Christian" gospel. Is it not the case that the four canonical gospels are "Jewish Christian"? Or some portion of them?OriMTL (talk) 18:59, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
- - see the article Jewish–Christian gospels - cheers - Epinoia (talk) 20:32, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
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