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== Amendment request: Cirt and Jayen466 ==
{{Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment/Header}}

<noinclude>{{-}}</noinclude>
'''Initiated by ''' &mdash; ''']''' (]) '''at''' 04:39, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
]
; Case affected : {{RFARlinks|Cirt and Jayen466}}
]

; Clauses to which an amendment is requested
# ]
# ]

; List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
* {{userlinks|Cirt}} (initiator)

; Information about amendment request

* Remedies: ] and ]
* Details of desired modification: Narrow exception to engage in quality improvement projects for pages previously brought to quality levels, listed at ].

=== Statement by Cirt ===

#Hello, I'm asking the Arbitration Committee to consider a narrow modification to remedies (1) and (2) from the case '']''.
#I'd like to be able to maintain and improve further in quality ].
#In the interim since the closure of the case I've been placed under the mentorship of {{u|The Rambling Man}} and under this guidance, successfully taken a page , to ] quality. See: () and ()
#In addition I've focused on quality improvement projects to bring articles to higher levels of quality -- this has resulted successfully in three (3) ] promotions, seven (7) ] promotions, twenty (20) ] contributions, and one (1) ].
#Specifically I'd ask the Committee to amend the case '']'' by motion, so that I would be permitted to maintain articles I'd previously improved to high levels of quality, and embark on quality improvement projects for pages listed at ], to further improve them in quality to ] or ].

Thanks for your consideration,

&mdash; ''']''' (]) 04:39, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|David Fuchs}} I'd of course welcome a full lifting of the restrictions. But I'd also most appreciate this narrow exception so I could both maintain articles I'd brought to ] in the past, and hopefully bring other articles I'd brought to ] to higher levels of quality. I'll let the Committee consider either one of those options. And thanks very much to {{u|Lquilter}} and {{u|Carrite}} for your most kind comments about my content work and quality improvement efforts. Thank you very much for your attention to this matter, &mdash; ''']''' (]) 17:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Beeblebrox}} Thank you for recognizing that it's been several years. I'd appreciate any lessening of restrictions at all, full or otherwise, that would result in my being allowed to expand my quality improvement projects to include past ] and ] contributions. &mdash; ''']''' (]) 18:43, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Roger Davies}} I certainly didn't mean for that statement to apply to my ] contributions. I do feel badly that I had problems in those topics in the past. As for my Featured Content contributions -- I'm fortunate that my quality improvement projects that I've successfully helped improve to Featured quality are all due to collaborative cooperation and feedback from multiple contributors at multiple stages of review. &mdash; ''']''' (]) 00:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Carcharoth}} Thank you for mentioning my ] quality improvement effort on the film about ] and ], '']'' -- I found it most interesting that after all that discussion, the ]-day, itself, went by with more of a whimper than a bang, and didn't cause much controversy on the day of the Featuring of the article itself. My goals if the restrictions were removed would be to further improve in quality pages I'd previously already worked on at ]. These include several non-controversial articles, such as the articles I'd previously raised to ] quality: '']'', '']'', and '']'' -- I'd like to improve those to ] quality. &mdash; ''']''' (]) 10:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Carcharoth}} You mentioned '']'' -- so if you haven't noticed from my user talk page post about it, I'm currently working on a quality improvement project for the article on the book, '']''. Both the film and the book deal with the history of the word as related to ] and ]. So it's kind of the second ]-level quality improvement drive for me along a theme of freedom of speech and censorship related to the word. And second FA-level quality improvement drive on a book about freedom of speech -- as a follow-up to '']''. Thanks for your interest in my quality improvement projects, &mdash; ''']''' (]) 10:35, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Newyorkbrad}} Thank you for this specific request. Examples of specific articles I'd like to work on, that I can't now because of the restrictions, fall into two categories: (1) Articles I helped bring to ] that fall within the topic of new religious movements, and (2) Articles I helped bring to ] that I'd like to be permitted to improve to ]. A specific example of the former includes ] -- I noticed a bot left a note on the talk page back in 2011 that there were now dead-links in the article -- this has remained unaddressed by the community in the years since then. Specific examples of the latter include: '']'', '']'', and '']'' -- I'd like to improve these to ] quality. '']'', '']'', and '']'' are all novels by Scientology founder ] that I took to ] quality. Hopefully by working on further quality improvement on these articles, I can demonstrate to the community that I am capable of NPOV high-level quality improvement within the topic. Thank you, &mdash; ''']''' (]) 18:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Roger Davies}} Thank you for this specific request. (1) ]s I'd like to work on include the following: '']'', '']'', and '']'' (novels by Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard). If the Committee wishes to expand this further, I would be more than honored in their trust in my motivation to perform quality improvement projects to bring additional ]s from ] to ]. (2) Per your request, I've notified {{u|Jayen466}} (). &mdash; ''']''' (]) 18:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Carcharoth}} Yes I nominated '']'' to ]. But I thought I mostly left others to speak on those issues at the TFAR discussion itself. I certainly was ''not'' trying to raise a "degree of controversy" from the featuring of the article on the Main Page -- I was merely trying to ''have'' a discussion and let the community decide whether the article should be featured on the Main Page. The community had that discussion. The community decided, per the assessment of the close at ], by a final tally of 52-25, to feature the article on the Main Page. I am actually quite ''glad'' that no significant controversy of any kind arose from the featuring of this article on the Main Page. And I would have been glad that a dialog was stimulated about ] and ] related to the documentary and its discussion of this taboo word. Please, {{u|Carcharoth}}, don't penalize me for my high-quality Featured Article work, outside the topic ban on another topic, bringing an article to FA on a subject of ]. I tried to comport myself with civility during the discussion which resulted in a majority of the Misplaced Pages community deciding for featuring the article on the Main Page. I don't think I should be penalized for utilizing community processes at multiple stages of review, including GA Review, Peer Review, FAC, and yes, ] as well. Thank you. &mdash; ''']''' (]) 03:05, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Carcharoth}} Thank you for those quality improvement suggestions, improving the "core" or "vital" type pages of ] and ] would indeed be most ambitious tasks. I don't think I've ever tried before to embark on a quality improvement project for a "core" or "vital" page on Misplaced Pages. I personally enjoy working on more focused topical articles, that way I know that in the course of my research, it is actually possible for me to read literally all of the secondary source coverage about a particular topic. That's what I did for my most successful ] drive for '']'', it's what I did for '']'', and it's what I've tried to do in the process of research for my most recent ] quality improvement project on ] and ], at '']''. {{u|Carcharoth}}, specific films and books as opposed to the general main "core" articles on a topic also have a defined beginning, middle, and end, so it's comforting to know that once my research is completed into certain articles they will be a near complete representation of scholarship on those topics. I certainly hope my ] contributions on ] could help serve as models for quality improvement for other articles on the topic. &mdash; ''']''' (]) 13:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Carcharoth}} Maybe we should ask {{u|David Fuchs}} to improve the article ] to FA status instead of '']''. Personally I commend {{u|David Fuchs}} for ''all'' of his ] quality contributions. If you look at ], it doesn't look like {{u|David Fuchs}} has contributed FAs on "core" or "vital" articles like ], itself. I think this is for similar reasons as I described, above. That is, it's easier to read the majority of secondary source coverage about a niche topic rather than a wider topic, and then be assured that a quality improvement project on that article covers the majority of all of the secondary source coverage on that topic. I'm grateful for the Wikipedians at ] that have improved core vital articles on Misplaced Pages, but also quite thankful for those at ] that have improved to FA status more niche articles as well. &mdash; ''']''' (]) 15:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{Ping|AGK}} I understand your concern that you feel the request was problematic. In response to other Arbitrators' comments, I stated specifically that ]s I'd like to work on include the following: '']'', '']'', and '']'' (novels by Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard). Hopefully the more specific request makes things less problematic to consider. &mdash; ''']''' (]) 01:16, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by ] ===
* I didn't follow this original issue, but came upon it while working with Cirt on intellectual freedom issues over the last few months. A few comments:

One, I'm not sure why the original order seems so unbalanced: Cirt's alleged misdeeds seem relatively minor, and characterized more by sloppiness than ill-will. But they got two perpetual bans on content editing -- one very, very broad! all political-related bio articles -- AND status change (de-sysopping). The other editor's alleged misdeeds I personally find more troublesome, and there was very little remedy attached -- just a warning. Both users appropriately were restricted from interacting with each other.

Two, the original order is overbroad -- the restrictions on Cirt are not time-limited, and they're really broad.

Whatever the reasoning behind the original order, I suggest that in light of the time passed, and its breadth, that it should be reconsidered. Cirt is, in my experience, an exemplary editor, who has contributed a lot to Misplaced Pages content. From conceiving of the Intellectual freedom portal, bringing it to fruition, advancing it to "Featured" status -- and doing the same with a lot of content ''in'' that section, Cirt has been an awesome (in the sense of inspiring awe, rather than in the Bill-and-Ted sense) contributor to Misplaced Pages.

Cirt just asks for a minor modification. I have no idea why. The content restrictions should be completely lifted, since they should have been time-limited in the first place. The desysopping is already time limited, because it can be re-added with a request. User interaction orders could reasonably be perpetual, and I express no opinion about the ones at issue here.

] (]) 15:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by Carrite ===

I urge that the editing restrictions against Cirt be totally lifted. I think the original action against him was a vendetta, that the matter was decided wrongly, and the resulting punishment mindbogglingly draconian. Cirt has lost tools and done his time in the penalty box, time to return him to valuable content work. ] (]) 02:38, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement The Devil's Advocate ===
This request should either be for a full lifting of the topic ban or identify specific topic areas where he wishes to resume editing. Any granting of the request as framed would be little different from granting Cirt the ability to resume editing in all the areas where his prior activities were a problem. If Arbs feel he can be trusted with those articles then they should presume he can be trusted with any articles in those topic areas. Should they feel he cannot be trusted with those articles then it should be a question of whether he can be trusted with some topic areas he is banned from or none.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 04:12, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by {other user} ===
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary.
Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

=== Statement by {yet another user} ===

=== Clerk notes ===
: ''This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*At first blush I'd agree with TDA that drawing a bunch of narrow exceptions seems like hairsplitting at this point; either the restrictions en bloc should be appealed or single, article-by-article exceptions granted. <font color="#cc6600">]</font><sup><small>(<font color="#ff6600">]</font>)</small></sup> 15:00, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
*That's my impression as well. It's been several years. If the restrictions are no longer needed for some articles they should no longer be needed at all and Cirt should be able to keep himself out of trouble. I'm not 100% convinced that is the case just yet but I don't think lots of little modifications to old sanctions is a route we want to go down at all. ] (]) 18:25, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
* I'm getting a sense of deja-vu here, I'm afraid. Five or six years ago, there were serious issues with your editing. You declared these fixed as a result of mentorship by Durova. While it is true that you did much featured work, it is also true that these included many articles on books and film which were critical of Scientology. In these, by your own admission and against policy, you placed and followed poor sourcing practices. If these now need work, it is probably better, for the foreseeable future at least, if that work were done by someone else. I cannot support this request. &nbsp;] <sup>]</sup> 23:50, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
:*Thanks, Cirt, for providing the summary Brad requested. May I trouble you to produce a complete list of prohibited articles that you'd like to work on, with a short descriptor for each indicating which part of your restriction it's covered by? For example ] (Scientology); ] (Scientology; L Ron Hubbard novel); etc. Incidentally, have you yet notified {{u|Jayen466}} (the other party to the case) about this request? &nbsp;] <sup>]</sup> 18:27, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
*Cirt, one of the things I look for in people coming off topic bans or site bans is an ability to work quietly and avoid areas that may be potentially controversial. In that vein, I noticed your comments relating to the request to feature ] (one of the articles you worked on) on the Main Page (] - after that rather heated discussion, this article ran on the main page on 1 March). If the restrictions were removed, would you actively seek out potentially controversial areas (and engage in discussions about the response to the article within Misplaced Pages and in external media), or would you make a conscious decision to edit quietly? ] (]) 08:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
**Cirt, I think you've misunderstood what I was getting at with my comment. When I talk about someone editing quietly, improving articles and putting them through review processes can be done relatively quietly. Nominating an article to appear as TFA is different again, and draws more attention to a topic, and attention of a different sort. What I'm saying is that I'm wary when I see an editor topic-banned in one area nominating their work on other articles at TFA and at the same time taking an interest in the degree of controversy that may arise from the featuring of those articles on the main page. It feels a bit too much like part of the motivation was to see what the reaction would be (I suspect the effects of filters and blocking software may have skewed any reaction). I would prefer to see an editor that was topic-banned finding a quiet area to edit in that they have a moderate interest in and can be dispassionate about, rather than returning to areas they are passionate about. Hence I would be reluctant to grant the request as it stands. ] (]) 00:51, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
***Cirt, one way to stimulate a dialog about ] and ] would be to work to get those two articles to featured article status. That is much harder than working on narrow, specific topics. But it also gives people a wider view of the topic area, rather than focusing the topic through a specific film or book (such as the one you mention: '']''). Anyway, I'll leave it there, as the focus of this amendment request should be elsewhere (if you want to follow-up on my talk page, feel free). Hopefully we will have an update for you in a few days time. ] (]) 08:37, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
*My gut instinct is to be hesitant about a removal of editing restrictions since, as Roger says, we've all been here before. Fool me once, etc, etc. The description of the scope of the proposed relaxation, while marketed as a limited relaxation, is not that far away from blanket removal; Cirt says he wants to "embark on quality improvement projects for pages listed at ]", which is a very long list, containing many articles in subject areas that have previously been a source of problem and conflict. And, as David Fuchs says, it's probably better to either grant article-by-article exceptions, or just remove the restrictions.<p>Remedy 2 (the BLP restriction) specifically says "''if Cirt conforms his future editing to applicable policies and the principles set forth in this decision and ], he may submit a request for amendment after one year from the date of this decision seeking a relaxation of this restriction''". It's been 2 1/2 years. It's time to either relax it, or admit that suggesting how it could be relaxed was a mistake.<p>After some thought, I believe I support revising Remedy 1 so that it only prohibits editing articles related to Scientology, and undoing Remedy 2. I would suggest instead something more tailored to the Finding of Fact, such as "Cirt is prohibited from placing undue negative weight in topics on new religious movements and political BLPs, and from following poor sourcing practices. If he is determined to be doing so at ], original Remedies 1 and 2 can be reimposed by any uninvolved admin." Or something to that effect. --] (]) 14:56, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
*Cirt, can you please give examples of specific articles you'd like to work on, that you can't now because of the restrictions? ] (]) 17:47, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
*The drama and trouble caused by a restriction tends to rise in proportion to the number of exceptions and clauses added to it, especially when they are added some time later. Also, I find the framing of this request unsatisfactory. What, for example, exactly are the articles "previously improved to high levels of quality"? That list, impressively long though it may be, is not iterated here. More worryingly still, "Pages listed at User:Cirt/Contributions" is a list with contents determined by the sanctioned editor himself. We cannot have a topic ban with a scope decided by its subject. I would deny this request. ] ]] 00:49, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
----

== Clarification request: Toddst1/Holdek ==

'''Initiated by ''' ] (]) '''at''' 18:53, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

;Case or decision affected:
:Link to relevant decision: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration_motion_regarding_the_Toddst1_request_for_arbitration

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{userlinks|Someone not using his real name}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|Holdek}}
*{{admin|Toddst1}}
*{{admin|Ymblanter}}
*{{admin|Worm That Turned}}

=== Statement by Someone not using his real name ===
Apparently Toddst1 was desysopped in some drama I have not followed closely, and consequently Holdek (originally blocked by Toddst1) was unblocked (by Worm that Turned/ArbCom). Holdek now seems to claim that his block for socking was overturned . Has the committee decided that Holdek was not socking? ] (]) 18:53, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

@Writ Keeper: Worm That Turned, in his rather convoluted write-up there, does not clearly say there whether he thinks Holdek was not socking (to harass Ymblanter). Also, I want to know if this was a committee decision. The "not socking" IP is still blocked for about two years, by the way . ] (]) 19:08, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by Writ Keeper ===
] ]&nbsp;]] 19:01, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

=== Statement by Holdek ===
I have made an unblock request so that the IP's block log, where my username is mentioned as "clearly a sock" (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page=68.50.128.91&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_patrol_log=1&hide_review_log=1&hide_thanks_log=1), is updated. I'm not sure if that was the best venue to make the request, but I couldn't find any instructions for an alternative. ] (]) 20:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

'''Update:''' Request was accepted on March 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:68.50.128.91&diff=598082168&oldid=598006520. ] (]) 21:41, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

=== Clerk notes ===
: ''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*The subcommittee only overturned Toddst1's extension of the block duration to indefinite. We did not decide that the original 1-month block was unsupportable, and our recent decision (which Worm That Turned implemented) should not be interpreted in that way. ] ]] 19:18, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
:* To be clear, and to reply to Carcharoth's point, I do consider this a BASC action. WTT may have acted in his own capacity, but he unwittingly had the backing of the subcommittee. However, as Newyorkbrad observes, at this point it hardly matters. ] ]] 00:37, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
*I've probably mucked up a little, because I've implemented the unblock off my own back rather an as a BASC decision. As I say, I did discuss this on the BASC list, and there was agreement to this solution. I believe the 1 month block was good and necessary, though the indef was excessive. I've explained it at , and now. Hopefully that's clear enough. ]<sup>TT</sup>(]) 09:58, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
*Not sure what is going on here. I thought this was a BASC decision. I commented on the appeal and supported what WTT did, but this is the first I've heard that it was done as an individual action. If so, shouldn't a statement be made above by WTT if it was a non-arbitrator action? Since you were acting after a BASC discussion, I think it was in fact a BASC decision, even if you don't think it was. ], do you agree that this was a BASC decision? ] (]) 08:48, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
*Holdek indicates that his request for an unblock of the IP was granted on March 4. It seems to me that resolves the issue such that there's nothing else we need to do here. ] (]) 17:50, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
----

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