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== Etymology of vape == == Move discussion in progress ==


There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Usage of electronic cigarettes#Requested move 28 November 2023 crosspost --> —] 13:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
This article needs to clarify for the etymology of vape. Several sources call the use of ecigs as smoking them, while the industry itself refers to the process as ''vaping'' (a word not found in any dictionary as far as I can tell). Where is consensus that we should not be using the form smoking ecigs, and why is it not even mentioned if there is a debate over naming use. ] (] · ] · ]) 12:18, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
#http://healthland.time.com/2013/12/13/smoke-from-e-cigs-still-poses-some-second-hand-risk/ - Refering to ''smoke from e-cigs''
#http://motherboard.vice.com/read/teens-are-using-e-cigs-to-quit-smoking-and-failing-miserably - Refers to ''e-smoking'', which as a term is mentionable. WP:RS for the term.
#http://metro.co.uk/2013/03/22/manchester-city-ban-supporter-for-smoking-electronic-cigarette-after-thinking-its-real-3555276/ - Refers to ''smoking e-cigs''
#http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/features/ecigarettes-under-fire - Craig Youngblood (industry professional) calls them: ''electronic, alternative smoking devices''
#http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/ed185b54-c5e0-11e3-a7d4-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2zQeQdEWo Ruyan CEO calls the use ''guilt-free smoking''
:Using the term smoking e-cigs is not unheard of, and should be represented in the article. ] (] · ] · ]) 12:28, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
::So we should because of journalists not familiar with the topic area use incorrect terms? ] is incorrect, while ] is correct - by the definition of the terms. Strangely all of your articles specify that they are not referring to smoking, but to (scare-quote)"smoking", emissions, vaping or specify that (WebMD)''"E-cigarettes don't make real smoke"''. The headlines of articles are generally not reliable, since they are written ''after'' editorial review for promoting the article.
::I'm not against an etymology section, or a section explaining the difference between smoke and vapor - but using an incorrect term, because some media is unfamiliar with the topic they write about, is silly. --] 16:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
:::I've been through this already with ]. The argument he/she used then was that we should say "smoking" because "vaping" was just industry propaganda. I disagree. YOu cannot smoke something that produces no smoke and to argue otherwise is ridiculous.--]<sup>]</sup> 18:58, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
::::But things on which you disagree with can still be of value for a reader. ] (] · ] · ]) 07:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::Trouble here is that you appear to be starting from a faulty position. The mentions of "smoking" e-cigs only exists because journalists haven't (or hadn't) a clue about the topic they were writing about. What comes out of an e-cigarette is vapor, not smoke. The liquid is evaporated, not combusted. etc. Thus smoke is simply wrong.
:::::With regards to your mention of "industry"... i don't really know what to do with that, since i can't see that there is an "industry" creating such terms - i do see that there is quite a large subculture thing going, where such terms come from.
:::::Finally i can't really see that we can make an etymology section without resorting to ], at this point. --] 11:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
::::::I see only one remotely usable secondary etymology source . In turn, it cites (and questions) a scarce magazine source at ''New Society'', Volumes 65-66 (1983) New Society Ltd. with neither issue nor page number given. I will inqure at ] to see if anyone can locate that primary source. That Wordspy entry may, however, be indirectly derived from by ]. ] <small>]</small> 18:03, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Ok, so the early article cited was Rob Stepney "Why Do People Smoke", {{google book|vakpAQAAIAAJ|New Society}}, Volume 65, Number 1080 (28 July 1983) New Society Ltd. pp. 126-128. That piece is snippet view, but it clearly backs the text quoted by Wordspy (and by Wiktionary). ] <small>]</small> 19:07, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
If we are going to call it smoking just because some journalists calls it smoking, why not call it what it actually is aswell is since tons of journalist calls it vaping as you can see , , , , and .... Oh... and , and as well.] (]) 00:43, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


== Cannabis ==
:Inhaling "air" ist breathing, inhaling "tobaccosmoke" is smoking, inhaling an asthma aerosol is "using an asthma inhaler"! So: Inhaling a non-combustible vaporized liquid with nicotine is not "breathing" or "smoking" - It is "vaping"! The Etymology "vaping" is established since 1980 ()--] (]) 11:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)


Vaping isn't only for nicotine. I'd like to see this article expanded to include the increasingly common practice of vaping cannabis products. ] (]) 22:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
== Systematic Review not accepted? ==
So... this ?Why? It's a published, peer-reviewed secondary source! --] (]) 16:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
::It appears that their are a couple of issues. One was it was a copyright violation. We must paraphrase.
::The other is that it is not pubmed indexed. Will need to look at the whole article. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
:::My university carries it. Should be usable with appropriate wording. It does say "Riccardo Polosa is a Professor of Medicine and is supported by the University of Catania, Italy. He has received lecture fees and research funding from GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer, manufacturers of stop smoking medications. He has also served as a consultant for Pfizer and Arbi Group Srl (Milano, Italy), the distributor of Categoria™ e-Cigarettes. His research on electronic cigarettes is currently supported by LIAF (Lega Italiana AntiFumo)." ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
:I removed it due to lack of MEDLINE indexing. We have plenty of secondary sources, no need to use sub-optimal ones. ] (]) 00:39, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Sure... I can already see what happens here... This is WP, right? Not a political webpage, is'nt it?--] (]) 20:03, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


:They have different nomenclature and health effects. E-cigarettes replace cigarettes. THC vapes are not intended to simulate cigarettes and are often referred to as vape pens.
== FDA ==
:While all e-cigarettes are based on glycerin and/or propylene glycol, THC vapes usually use an oily substance. ] (] • ] 02:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)


==Even unguided e-cigarette use among smokers unwilling to stop smoking is effective in causing smoking cessation==
Is the FDA website a reliable source? See . ] (]) 20:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
::This would be a position statement from a internationally recognised expert body. So yes ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
::: If I suspected that might be the case then I would not have removed it but clearly the "Adverse Event Reports for e-Cigarettes" section of the FDA page is not a position statement. The section is merely a relaying of information that happens to consist of a summarisation of anecdotal reports. The FDA themselves state that "Whether e-cigarettes caused these reported adverse events is unknown. Some of the adverse events could be related to a pre-existing medical condition or to other causes that were not reported to FDA."


What is this meant to mean?—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 16:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::There are various anecdotal yet compelling reports out there of how e-cigarettes have had a positive impact on a person's health, yet obviously we should not introduce those due to their very nature. It is therefore impossible to balance these unconfirmed side-effects with any opposing views due to the fact that firm evidence of either simply does not exist. Whilst I am not saying that absence of an opposing valid source invalidates the original source I do think that we have to be careful to maintain a NPOV. In this case I find it hard to justify alarming, unproven medical reports that would likely remain unchallenged.] (]) 00:55, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


:It looks like someone read a study, took it as fact, and copied the text into the lead. I've tried to remedy it. ]] 17:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:In general, the FDA is a reliable source. However, that particular piece of information is a voluntary reporting of possible adverse events (possible form of selection bias) and the FDA has not confirmed any of those events were actually caused by e-cigarettes. I'm not sure it deserves to be included given the tentative nature of the data; if it is included, we have to be sure to note that it is unknown if these events are actually caused by the e-cigarettes (which would argue against even putting it in in the first place). ] (]) 00:43, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


==Revert 24th April 2024==
"The FDA has received voluntary reports of ]s involving e-cigarettes which include hospitalization for illnesses such as pneumonia, congestive heart failure, disorientation, seizure, hypotension, and other health problems but it is unknown whether e-cigarettes caused these adverse events.<ref>http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm172906.htm</ref>"
Re: {{diff2|1220517884|this revert}}.


AlexGallon, I can see why you've done this, but with this particular article we need to bear in mind our audience. A substantial proportion of the people who type "electronic cigarette" into the search box are teenagers considering taking a puff—and English isn't necessarily their first language. So the lead of this particular article tries to use the simplest possible grammatical constructions. Short, declarative sentences in the active voice with as few subclauses as possible. We can use college level English in the body text; it's just the lead that needs to be super-accessible.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 08:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
As long we are using a reliable source and the text is neutrally written I think it is okay. ] (]) 17:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


:Understood, and I agree with your reasoning{{snd}}very well explained, so thank you. ] (]) 18:59, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
== New review in Circulation ==


== Evidence shows that many users who begin by vaping will go on to also smoke traditional cigarettes. ==
Not sure if anyone has seen this review yet, but it looks pretty good. ] (]) 03:15, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
: No, it is not pretty good. It is biased and according to Prof. Dr. M. Siegel: "this article is little more than a hatchet job on e-cigarettes." and:
: "To illustrate this, let's consider the five studies which the authors cite as providing evidence that electronic cigarettes inhibit smoking cessation. Presumably, these five studies examined the rate of quitting among smokers who used electronic cigarettes in an attempt to quit smoking. Question: Of these five studies, how many examined the rate of smoking cessation among smokers who were trying to quit using electronic cigarettes?"
: Answer: "The rest of the story is that none of these studies examined quit rates among smokers who were trying to quit using e-cigarettes. None of these studies were in fact designed to examine the role of e-cigarettes in smoking cessation in the first place." --] (]) 20:03, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Circulation is a well respected journal. It is a recent review article. Good find. We can definately use this as a source. Now the blog we can definately not use. ] (] · ] · ]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:35, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


This line is not supported by it's own sources, especially in the context of it's section regarding "gateway drugs". It has a heavy lean towards the negative.
== Another Cessation Study That Has Been Added ==

See ]. The New York Times has been used as the source which obviously does not really conform with ], the article is I believe based on this press release in the peer-reviewed Addiction journal:
> Evidence shows that many users who begin by vaping will go on to also smoke traditional cigarettes.
]

The study is not actually published until tomorrow (midnight tonight UK time, which is a couple of hours away). It is not a systematic review but it has been peer-reviewed and renowned UK organisations like University College London and Cancer Research are involved. It also seemingly directly addresses the issue of e-cigarettes and smoking cessation in an area where data in general is lacking at present. Although 6000 people took part, I'm not sure of the quality of the methodology of the study, maybe others can comment here and more will obviously become apparent when its published. The question is should we wait for this to be reviewed or should we keep it?
Suggest changing this to:

> There is little evidence to suggest that e-cigarettes act as a gateway to traditional smoking at present, and further research is needed to clarify the strength and veracity of any correlations between the two. However, evidence does suggest that those who have smoked e-cigarettes will try a traditional cigarette at least once in their life.

---

This source does not even discuss the topic, it is not a research paper related to the discussion: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.113.006416

The only thing remotely related is from the Author of the study speaking their personal opinion regarding potential ethical concerns, for it to be _potentially_ a gateway drug:

"The growing ubiquity of e-cigarettes lends itself to ethical scrutiny. Many have expressed concern about the potential for e-cigarettes to act as a “gateway” to cigarette smoking.39,40 Unlike other NRTs, e-cigarettes provide a recreational function and could feasibly entice unintended product users (eg, nonsmokers and youth) to engage in smoking-like behavior when they otherwise would not. However, it is unclear how many youth or nonsmokers are purchasing these products."


--

This source specifically states there is not enough evidence: https://apps.who.int/gb/fctc/PDF/cop6/FCTC_COP6_10-en.pdf

Quote (Page 6, point D):

"These data do not allow the conclusions to be drawn as to whether this is a sign
of adolescent smokers switching to ENDS, an established pattern of dual use, or a temporary
experimentation fashion. Therefore, in the absence of longitudinal data, existing evidence does
not allow an affirmation or rejection of the role of ENDS in increasing nicotine addiction
among adolescents above existing uptake rates, much less as to whether ENDS lead to smoking
in these countries. Among adults the pattern of dual use seems also the predominant one,
resulting in a reduction of smoked cigarettes and with few never smokers starting to use ENDS
(below 1% of the population)"

--

This source does not draw conclusions, only specifically stating there is a strong correlation between:

- EVER having used e-cigs and EVER smoking a cigarette (what kind of e-cig use? In passing? Habitual? Etc?)

- Current users of e-cigs and EVER having smoked a cigarette (this does not support the statement above, it is not a gateway if someone who uses e-cigs tries a cigarrette out of curiosity, nothing else being available, or simply tried it at some point in their life, etc).

"Ever users of ENDS/ENNDS had over three times the risk of ever cigarette use (ARR 3·01 (95% CI: 2·37, 3·82; p<0·001, I2: 82·3%), and current cigarette use had over two times the risk (ARR 2·56 (95% CI: 1·61, 4·07; p<0·001, I2: 77·3%) at follow up. Among current ENDS/ENNDS users, there was a significant association with ever (ARR 2·63 (95% CI: 1·94, 3·57; p<0·001, I2: 21·2%)), but not current cigarette use (ARR 1·88 (95% CI: 0·34, 10·30; p = 0·47, I2: 0%)) at follow up."

--

The only source (https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/3/e045603#T1) which seems to support the lean this statement has, is very unclear with regards to whether the measured effect was "never users becoming habitual tobacco users after using e-cigarrettes", or "former cigarettes users who tried e-cigarettes relapsing to cigarettes", or "never users having _ever_ smoked a cigarette after first using e-cigarettes" and so on. It cannot support the statement it is attempting to. ] (]) 23:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

*This is a medical article, so we apply medical sources in accordance with ]. The systematic review and meta-analysis published in the BMJ trumps the WHO paper.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 19:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
*:Regardless, one source which itself does not claim a gateway effect, only a correlation between vaping and smoking, still does not support this statement. It itself makes no claims to a ‘gateway theory’.
*:Only that vapers will eventually try a cigarette at some point. The heavy lean in the context of that section implies use of one leads to habitual use of the other. There is _no_ evidence to support this. ] (]) 21:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
*::I'm afraid I read the source very differently. It says: {{tq|meta-analysis showed e-cigarette users were much more likely than non-users to go on to smoke combustible cigarettes, even after adjusting for covariates}}, and {{tq|meta-analysis showed a markedly higher odds of combustible cigarette use in those who had used e-cigarettes}}.{{pb}}My position is that the first of those is not a claim of a correlation. It's a claim that vapers ''go on'' to smoke tobacco, and the sequence is clear: first they vape, then they become more likely to start smoking. "Gateway" is a reasonable way to summarize this.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 23:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
*:::You are implying causation, when there is only correlation. A "gateway" must in itself be the cause, but as we all know, people do not start smoking because they start smoking. The evidence is unclear, and that is clear. ] (]) 23:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
*::::For example, I could find a strong correlation between those who drink water, and those who eat food. People who eat food at the start of their life are 9001x more likely to drink water, and people who start drinking water in their life are extremely likely to also begin to eat food. However, neither of these things are caused by each other.
*::::There is simply too many other factors here to suggest that e-cigarrette usage is _the_ cause of later tobacco usage. ] (]) 23:57, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
*:::::The article doesn't say it's _the_ cause. I do understand the difference between correlation and causation, and in my view the BMJ source is clearly claiming the latter and not the former, so there doesn't seem to be much possibility of us agreeing about this.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 08:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
*::::::I do not believe that making alarmist statements based on personal interpretations of semantics is valid documentation, reporting, or science.
*::::::Given the three other sources mentioned do not even remotely appear to agree, or are not even remotely related to the topic, it seems very clear that statement was ham fisted in with an intended bias. I’m not sure how that’s not very obvious to you. ] (]) 12:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::Well, hang on. This article does have quite a number of phrasing problems, and there's definitely a lot of hamfisted language.{{pb}}The article was started by a problematic editor, who is now not allowed to edit any medical articles at all. There was quite a lot of drama about him. The article needs properly checking and rewriting. That's an exercise I've been slowly chiselling away at for years and will continue when I get the opportunity.{{pb}}I won't make the specific edit you ask for, but that doesn't mean I won't listen to you and it doesn't mean I oppose other changes. I would particularly welcome proposals that make the article more accessible (reduce the reading age, simplify convoluted sentences, but without simplifying the underlying thoughts), and I'd also welcome proposals to replace poor sources with meta-analyses and systematic reviews published in medical journals. I do expect you'll be able to find places where previous editors have been unduly skeptical about e-cigarettes, and I do hope to work with you to fix them.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 14:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2024 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Electronic cigarette|answered=yes}}
Evidence shows that many users who begin by vaping will go on to also smoke traditional cigarettes.

Suggest changing this to:

There is little evidence to suggest that e-cigarettes act as a gateway to traditional smoking at present, and further research is needed to clarify the strength and veracity of any correlations between the two. However, evidence does suggest that those who have smoked e-cigarettes will attempt a traditional cigarette at least once in their life

See talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Electronic_cigarette ] (]) 23:57, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

*Not done. I'll reply in the other section you started, explaining why.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 19:39, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

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Former good article nomineeElectronic cigarette was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Usage of electronic cigarettes which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Cannabis

Vaping isn't only for nicotine. I'd like to see this article expanded to include the increasingly common practice of vaping cannabis products. Tad Lincoln (talk) 22:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

They have different nomenclature and health effects. E-cigarettes replace cigarettes. THC vapes are not intended to simulate cigarettes and are often referred to as vape pens.
While all e-cigarettes are based on glycerin and/or propylene glycol, THC vapes usually use an oily substance. Zvi Zig (talk • contribs 02:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Even unguided e-cigarette use among smokers unwilling to stop smoking is effective in causing smoking cessation

What is this meant to mean?—S Marshall T/C 16:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

It looks like someone read a study, took it as fact, and copied the text into the lead. I've tried to remedy it. Reconrabbit 17:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Revert 24th April 2024

Re: this revert.

AlexGallon, I can see why you've done this, but with this particular article we need to bear in mind our audience. A substantial proportion of the people who type "electronic cigarette" into the search box are teenagers considering taking a puff—and English isn't necessarily their first language. So the lead of this particular article tries to use the simplest possible grammatical constructions. Short, declarative sentences in the active voice with as few subclauses as possible. We can use college level English in the body text; it's just the lead that needs to be super-accessible.—S Marshall T/C 08:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Understood, and I agree with your reasoning – very well explained, so thank you. AlexGallon (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Evidence shows that many users who begin by vaping will go on to also smoke traditional cigarettes.

This line is not supported by it's own sources, especially in the context of it's section regarding "gateway drugs". It has a heavy lean towards the negative.

> Evidence shows that many users who begin by vaping will go on to also smoke traditional cigarettes.

Suggest changing this to:

> There is little evidence to suggest that e-cigarettes act as a gateway to traditional smoking at present, and further research is needed to clarify the strength and veracity of any correlations between the two. However, evidence does suggest that those who have smoked e-cigarettes will try a traditional cigarette at least once in their life.

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This source does not even discuss the topic, it is not a research paper related to the discussion: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.113.006416

The only thing remotely related is from the Author of the study speaking their personal opinion regarding potential ethical concerns, for it to be _potentially_ a gateway drug:

"The growing ubiquity of e-cigarettes lends itself to ethical scrutiny. Many have expressed concern about the potential for e-cigarettes to act as a “gateway” to cigarette smoking.39,40 Unlike other NRTs, e-cigarettes provide a recreational function and could feasibly entice unintended product users (eg, nonsmokers and youth) to engage in smoking-like behavior when they otherwise would not. However, it is unclear how many youth or nonsmokers are purchasing these products."


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This source specifically states there is not enough evidence: https://apps.who.int/gb/fctc/PDF/cop6/FCTC_COP6_10-en.pdf

Quote (Page 6, point D):

"These data do not allow the conclusions to be drawn as to whether this is a sign of adolescent smokers switching to ENDS, an established pattern of dual use, or a temporary experimentation fashion. Therefore, in the absence of longitudinal data, existing evidence does not allow an affirmation or rejection of the role of ENDS in increasing nicotine addiction among adolescents above existing uptake rates, much less as to whether ENDS lead to smoking in these countries. Among adults the pattern of dual use seems also the predominant one, resulting in a reduction of smoked cigarettes and with few never smokers starting to use ENDS (below 1% of the population)"

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This source does not draw conclusions, only specifically stating there is a strong correlation between:

- EVER having used e-cigs and EVER smoking a cigarette (what kind of e-cig use? In passing? Habitual? Etc?)

- Current users of e-cigs and EVER having smoked a cigarette (this does not support the statement above, it is not a gateway if someone who uses e-cigs tries a cigarrette out of curiosity, nothing else being available, or simply tried it at some point in their life, etc).

"Ever users of ENDS/ENNDS had over three times the risk of ever cigarette use (ARR 3·01 (95% CI: 2·37, 3·82; p<0·001, I2: 82·3%), and current cigarette use had over two times the risk (ARR 2·56 (95% CI: 1·61, 4·07; p<0·001, I2: 77·3%) at follow up. Among current ENDS/ENNDS users, there was a significant association with ever (ARR 2·63 (95% CI: 1·94, 3·57; p<0·001, I2: 21·2%)), but not current cigarette use (ARR 1·88 (95% CI: 0·34, 10·30; p = 0·47, I2: 0%)) at follow up."

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The only source (https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/3/e045603#T1) which seems to support the lean this statement has, is very unclear with regards to whether the measured effect was "never users becoming habitual tobacco users after using e-cigarrettes", or "former cigarettes users who tried e-cigarettes relapsing to cigarettes", or "never users having _ever_ smoked a cigarette after first using e-cigarettes" and so on. It cannot support the statement it is attempting to. J. Christ Denton (talk) 23:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

  • This is a medical article, so we apply medical sources in accordance with WP:MEDRS. The systematic review and meta-analysis published in the BMJ trumps the WHO paper.—S Marshall T/C 19:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    Regardless, one source which itself does not claim a gateway effect, only a correlation between vaping and smoking, still does not support this statement. It itself makes no claims to a ‘gateway theory’.
    Only that vapers will eventually try a cigarette at some point. The heavy lean in the context of that section implies use of one leads to habitual use of the other. There is _no_ evidence to support this. J. Christ Denton (talk) 21:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    I'm afraid I read the source very differently. It says: meta-analysis showed e-cigarette users were much more likely than non-users to go on to smoke combustible cigarettes, even after adjusting for covariates, and meta-analysis showed a markedly higher odds of combustible cigarette use in those who had used e-cigarettes.My position is that the first of those is not a claim of a correlation. It's a claim that vapers go on to smoke tobacco, and the sequence is clear: first they vape, then they become more likely to start smoking. "Gateway" is a reasonable way to summarize this.—S Marshall T/C 23:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    You are implying causation, when there is only correlation. A "gateway" must in itself be the cause, but as we all know, people do not start smoking because they start smoking. The evidence is unclear, and that is clear. J. Christ Denton (talk) 23:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    For example, I could find a strong correlation between those who drink water, and those who eat food. People who eat food at the start of their life are 9001x more likely to drink water, and people who start drinking water in their life are extremely likely to also begin to eat food. However, neither of these things are caused by each other.
    There is simply too many other factors here to suggest that e-cigarrette usage is _the_ cause of later tobacco usage. J. Christ Denton (talk) 23:57, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    The article doesn't say it's _the_ cause. I do understand the difference between correlation and causation, and in my view the BMJ source is clearly claiming the latter and not the former, so there doesn't seem to be much possibility of us agreeing about this.—S Marshall T/C 08:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
    I do not believe that making alarmist statements based on personal interpretations of semantics is valid documentation, reporting, or science.
    Given the three other sources mentioned do not even remotely appear to agree, or are not even remotely related to the topic, it seems very clear that statement was ham fisted in with an intended bias. I’m not sure how that’s not very obvious to you. J. Christ Denton (talk) 12:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
    Well, hang on. This article does have quite a number of phrasing problems, and there's definitely a lot of hamfisted language.The article was started by a problematic editor, who is now not allowed to edit any medical articles at all. There was quite a lot of drama about him. The article needs properly checking and rewriting. That's an exercise I've been slowly chiselling away at for years and will continue when I get the opportunity.I won't make the specific edit you ask for, but that doesn't mean I won't listen to you and it doesn't mean I oppose other changes. I would particularly welcome proposals that make the article more accessible (reduce the reading age, simplify convoluted sentences, but without simplifying the underlying thoughts), and I'd also welcome proposals to replace poor sources with meta-analyses and systematic reviews published in medical journals. I do expect you'll be able to find places where previous editors have been unduly skeptical about e-cigarettes, and I do hope to work with you to fix them.—S Marshall T/C 14:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2024

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Evidence shows that many users who begin by vaping will go on to also smoke traditional cigarettes.

Suggest changing this to:

There is little evidence to suggest that e-cigarettes act as a gateway to traditional smoking at present, and further research is needed to clarify the strength and veracity of any correlations between the two. However, evidence does suggest that those who have smoked e-cigarettes will attempt a traditional cigarette at least once in their life

See talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Electronic_cigarette J. Christ Denton (talk) 23:57, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

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