| Revision as of 21:31, 26 July 2014 editDangerousPanda (talk | contribs)38,827 edits →If Misplaced Pages wants more editors: He, but...← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 05:30, 23 December 2024 edit undoUntamed1910 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users10,866 editsm Reverted 1 edit by 222.101.152.135 (talk) to last revision by ClueBot IIITags: Twinkle Undo | ||
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| {{section sizes|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard}} | |||
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| * Report incidents such as block evasion at ''']'''. | * Report incidents such as block evasion at ''']'''. | ||
| * Report violations of the ] at ''']'''. | * Report violations of the ] at ''']'''. | ||
| * Discuss general issues at ''']'''. | * Discuss general issues at ''']'''. | ||
| * Report posting of personal information by following instructions at ''']'''. | * Report posting of personal information by following instructions at ''']'''. | ||
| * Request discussions need to be closed at ''']'''. | * Request discussions need to be closed at ''']'''. | ||
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{{press | ||
| | subject = noticeboard | |||
| | org = '']'' | |||
| | date = September 25, 2013 | |||
| | author = Andrew Orlowski | | author = Andrew Orlowski | ||
| | date = {{date|25 September 2013}} | |||
| | url = http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/25/wikipedia_peasants_revolt/ | |||
| | title = Revolting peasants force Misplaced Pages to cut'n'paste Visual Editor into the bin | | title = Revolting peasants force Misplaced Pages to cut'n'paste Visual Editor into the bin | ||
| | url = http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/25/wikipedia_peasants_revolt/ | |||
| | org = ] | |||
| | author2 = ] | |||
| | archiveurl = http://www.webcitation.org/6Jtwsep5Z | |||
| | title2 = Want to Know How to Build a Better Democracy? Ask Misplaced Pages | |||
| | archivedate = {{date|25 September 2013}} | |||
| | org2 = '']'' | |||
| | accessdate = {{date|25 September 2013}} | |||
| | url2 = https://www.wired.com/story/want-to-know-how-to-build-a-better-democracy-ask-wikipedia/ | |||
| }} | |||
| | date2 = 7 April 2019 | |||
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| | accessdate2 = 8 April 2019 | |||
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| == |
== Significant 100+ edits wiped out from WP:AN == | ||
| Having struggled to use this over-long page on mobile last night, I believe it should be split. The easiest way to do so would be to move the "Requests for closure" section to its own page. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 16:14, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Isn't it technically on its own separate page already but it's just being transcluded here?—] (]) 16:49, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::Or maybe don't try and look at AN on a mobile...? You know it's going to be long/busy, so...]] 17:33, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::And how does that help all our colleagues who have mobile-only access? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::If so, why bother transcluding it here? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| : Collapse the transcluded RFC's? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 17:41, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::When text is "collapsed", is it still downloaded to the browser and then visually hidden, or are fewer characters actually sent? —] (]) 17:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Removing the transcluded requests for closure would greatly reduce the value of that page. –]] 18:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::], on the mobile site the requests for closure section is collapsed by default and takes up a total of one line. What is the actual problem you're getting? ] (]) 18:09, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::It's not collapsed in the Android app. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::How so? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm with xeno, the purpose of that page is to provide information to admin about non-emergency issues that need addressing, which it currently does fairly well. ANI is usually 3 to 6 times larger (currently 490k) and we deal just fine. ] | ] | ] 18:14, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::ANI does not work "just fine" on mobile, in the same way that AN does not. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::You would be better served by addressing the engineering team responsible for the mobile app. AN & ANI are not critical for mobile users, and I heavily doubt admins and power users REALLY need top speed access to those pages on their mobile devices. ] (]) 22:00, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::For me, AN and ANI work like crap on my Samsung Tab 2 10.1 (scrolling through to add edit doesn't work right), but work great on my Samsung S5 smartphone. Loads fast on both. I don't use the Wiki app (blech), just Chrome. I guess your mileage varies. ] | ] | ] 22:15, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :I think this might be becoming a perennial proposal. The purpose here is so that RfC closure, which is a primary means of dispute resolution, get attended to, and so I am with Xeno. ] (]) 22:21, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *I don't know what your device is, but for editing on my Nexus 5, Chrome works better than Misplaced Pages's official Adroid app. <span style="font-family:Sylfaen;color:white;background:black;padding:0 3px;">☺ · ] · ]</span> 23:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Shackleton misdoings == | |||
| It is not my purpose to discredit any kind of person, | |||
| but given the unjustified allegations and libel against Captain Robert Falcon Scott over Misplaced Pages (and its bunch of subsequent articles), | |||
| I think anyone dedicated to a remotely balanced account of reality should be aware of this report and how starkly the "Wikipedian" account is limited to the resource of one single person that seems to be a lover of Ernest Shackleton: | |||
| http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/hero-who-rebelled-against-shackleton-is-honoured-with-statue-of-beloved-cat-6166876.html --] (]) 22:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :I've removed the huge blob of copyrighted text pasted here multiple times. That being said, I'm going to ] and ask you to elaborate on what actual issue there is here. (For what it's worth, it certainly doesn't belong on this talk page, but someone can point you in the right direction, assuming there is a legitimate issue.) --<font face="Book Antiqua">] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font> 22:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :: What? You're removing truths that editors happily try to be acknowledged by the public and at the same time, you are talking about "good faith"? >ou may take a look at and see what kind of reproaches he is exposed to and if he ever killed a cat by his own?--] (]) 22:58, 18 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::If you are still confused, Kinu, you are not alone. I can't tell if this is trolling, clue deficiency, a real problem, who knows. ] | ] | ] 23:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Same issue at ], where I undid the posting of a complete article from The Independent on the talk page for copyright reasons. In that case the poster was {{user|37.230.15.203}}. ] (]) 23:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *I've blocked both, seems to be advocating something, quite poorly. Or trolling. Regardless, not here to build an encyclopedia. The IP picked up after the named account was warned. ] | ] | ] 23:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *:Sounds good. Thanks. --<font face="Book Antiqua">] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font> 23:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Where and how to request a Civility board == | |||
| I was reviewing the Administrators' noticeboard and was surprised to become fully conscious of the fact that, under "User conduct," there is no board for Civility! There are Abuse (long-term cases); Article sanctions; Conflict of interest; Contributor copyright; Edit warring & 3RR; Editor restrictions; New pages patrollers; Paid editing; Sockpuppets; Usernames; and Vandalism... but no ''Civility''. | |||
| Considering that civility is one of the five "pillars," this seems a remarkable omission. If NPOV is one of the pillars ''and'' has a board under "Articles and content," civility ought to have its own board, too. Certainly edit warring is an uncivil behavior, and I can see why it has a board, but considering the difficulty Misplaced Pages has attracting and keeping good editors, it seems like we would want to regulate civility as conspicuously and as diligently as NPOV and 3RR. | |||
| Where and how can I go about making a formal request to make this a unique noticeboard area? | |||
| Thanks. | |||
| --] (]) 00:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *You are looking for ]. The community voted to shut it down and deal with civility issues at ] and ]. ] | ] | ] 00:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you. As it is late in the day in my neck of the woods, I will read it in more detail tomorrow, but my first comment is, this discussion is nearly two years old. Is there any reason why it couldn't be brought up again? Maybe starting as some kind of poll for users, current and perhaps even retired (if there's no law or policy that says they cannot be contacted), about the quantity and quality of incivility they experience (if any). Thanks again. ] (]) 01:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::It would take a discussion at the same place, and you are welcome to contact the previous supporters of the program (I was one of them) but honestly, I don't see it happening. Civility isn't really very enforceable for a number of reasons. See ] for some of the reasons, ie: what is offensive to one group of people isn't to another, so it is often impossible to define what "civil" is. Another is the observation that some of our best content creators can be, well, testy. That is the controversial part. I've never blocked for simple incivility and likely never would because of this. What often happens is that a discussion on civility often gets very incivil itself and can make the situation even worse. Personally, I try to let incivility and even insults just roll off my back, and recommend others do the same when it is possible. ] | ] | ] 01:25, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I concur to follow up at ]. Although there is no agreement on specific words that are uncivil, there are a few editors known as "good content creators" who are intolerant. In the short run, they benefit Misplaced Pages. In the long run, they may or may not benefit Misplaced Pages, because some of them are clearly over the line (no matter in what Anglophone culture). There should be a better mechanism for addressing habitual incivility. By the way,] is not and cannot be a way to deal with incivility. Since dispute resolution is meant to address content disputes, the dispute resolution volunteers will close a case if it is being complicated by conduct issues. Dispute resolution works best when the editors are willing to work collaboratively but need assistance. ] is not an ideal place for discussing incivility, because extended threads there become uncivil (and because some of the most contentious content creators have entourages who support them, and due to the supermajority nature of ], it becomes difficult to get consensus to sanction them). I agree that a better process is needed for addressing incivility. ] (]) 01:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{u|Dennis Brown}}, I am still studying the Village pump link you gave. I have only just finished going through the first of multiple threads under the section header. After my first pass, I count 98 votes. And some of the comments there, and even here, surprise me. Specifically, that civility isn't enforceable or that there is no agreement on what civility is. But certainly there is agreement about conduct that is uncivil. There are actual policies re: ] and ]. Disruptive editing, on the other hand, is described in a behavioral guideline, and tendentious editing is described in an essay. | |||
| ::::I would wager that a lot of people who leave Misplaced Pages, especially women who leave, do so because they feel civility is a crumbled pillar. You practically have to call someone a expletive or say something about their mother... No, honestly, I've seen people use that kind of language here with no repercussion. Not to say that there aren't good men on WP - there are. Or that there aren't bad women - there are. But when you have a self-policing group that is at least 85% men, you get what Misplaced Pages is today. | |||
| ::::First step, IMO (and I probably will start an honest-to-god discussion somewhere soon, after I've done some more thinking and talking here), is ''not'' to call the civility board the "Wikiquette" board. Right off the bat, we alienate the whole crowd of people who read that and think they have to stick their pinkies in the air when they drink. I saw a lot of talk about a 3O board for conduct, and that ''might'' work. Frankly, I think it ought to be simply the Civility board, and make it clear at the top that it addresses civility policies only. (Make people take disruptive and tendentious editing, and other guideline or essay based conduct) to ANI or ArbCom, because those ''are'' harder to prove.) And if there is concern that there are already too many conduct boards, why not merge some of those? Why have separate COI ''and'' paid advocacy boards? Or separate sockpuppet, username and vandalism boards? | |||
| ::::I honestly think that if Misplaced Pages cracked down on harassment and personal attacks, there would be, at first, a rash of short bans/blocks, then a huge improvement in conduct and in content, too. It is ridiculous to condone incivility in some editors because they're somehow too good to lose otherwise. This is supposed to be a "wiki" (collaborative) "paedia" (body of knowledge). Kill the wiki - and incivility does just that - and the rest will lose its vigor. ] (]) 19:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Speaking as an admin with over two years with the bit, I'm one of those that thinks that civility isn't enforceable on a multi-national website. We can deal with personal attacks, and deal with long term gross incivility where there is a clear pattern, but anything else is unenforceable. I didn't think so two years ago, but I do now. From my experience, talking with editors and trying to find common ground, plus tolerating a a good deal of heat and occasional swearing is the only way to deal with it. If you start blocking people for singular incidents of incivility, you would lose half the wiki in a week. The fact is, when people work together, they will bump heads, and sometimes good things come from that, sometimes just rudeness comes from it. This is true in the real world as much as it is here. Grown ups will sometimes tell each other to "fuck off". I'm willing to talk to folks and get them to try to get along, but I'm not willing to block over it. I understand it can be frustrating, but it is part of the process. Yes, some leave due to the occasional crassness, but at least as many would if you tried to enforce civility. The really, big, big problem is that it is impossible to enforce civility without introducing my own version of civility, which may differ from yours, or other admin, so it would be enforced unevenly, which is grossly unfair, and would cause all kinds of drama at the boards because Editor 1 said "piss off" and got blocked, and Editor 2 said the same thing and wasn't, because two different admin reviewed it. You can't codify what is and isn't civil when you live in a global neighborhood, at least not when we are talking about small doses of it. My opinion is that it would be a net loss for editor retention if we enforced it. ] | ] | ] 20:02, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Speaking as one who was once blocked for using the word ''sycophantic'', it's my impression that the civility policy, such as it is, was once policed rather aggressively by a number of admins. Didn't really make any difference though, and it wouldn't really make any difference if the idea was resurrected. ] ] 20:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Well, it is an awfully smarmy word ;-) but if all you were blocked for was using it, then I'd say civility was policed rather aggressively then. ] (]) 23:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :The fundamental error was in adding civility as one of the pillars, as it's impossible to define and therefore to enforce. To give you just one example, it's my opinion that one of the most incivil people on WP is Jimbo Wales, and very few would have the balls to block him. Added to which incivility as it tends to be invoked here on WP more often than not simply means saying something I don't agree with, or upsets me. Besides, the easiest way to avoid being called a cunt is not to act like one. ] ] 20:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::"Added to which incivility as it tends to be invoked here on WP more often than not simply means saying something I don't agree with, or upsets me." - Brilliantly put!!! --] - Just your ] banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... ] 17:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::Amazingly, {{u|Eric Corbett}}, I missed the last, "Besides" sentence of your comment yesterday. Probably because there were so many comments, and I was reading pretty fast, and you made your point (or seemed to) up front. But, following up today, and trying to figure out why another editor found your comment "brilliant" - there are errors in your argument. First, although it might be impossible to come up with a definition of what civility means that we could ''all'' agreed on, it's absolutely possible to define specific behaviors that are unacceptable. For instance, most would agree that calling someone the "N" word or, as you've done here, the "C" word, is unacceptable. Further, your own use of the "C" word here indicates that you believe someone can act in such a way that merits being called that word. And your use of that word also indicates you had, at least, a certain gender in mind, if not a certain person, when you said it. Either way, it is grossly offensive. | |||
| ::Will you please remove that "Besides" sentence, Eric? If you do, then I will remove this whole reply. If you don't, it's an example of a reason why PAIN, or something like it, should be restored. ] (]) 04:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *You can also find lots about the varies attempts to make civility actionable in the archives of ]. ]] 20:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| Before there was WQA, there was the dedicated ] (shortcut: the aptly chosen ]). This was shut down for some of the same reasons as WQA at ]. The collective experience, I suppose, is that civility and the avoidance of personal attacks is important, but that it is better to depend on a collective ethos of treating one another well, as partners on a collaborative project, rather than to rely on primarily on a sanctions model in an area well-known to result in disagreements over line-drawing. ] (]) 20:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Edit conflict}} I strongly disagree with Eric that it was a mistake to make civility one of our pillars. I have no opinion as to whether or not Jimbo is one of the most incivil people on the encyclopedia, but without civility, this place would be destroyed in a few days or weeks once the fighting started in earnest and unchecked. | |||
| ::But...I do agree that the issue really isn't civility per se, because Eric ''is right'' that many times incivility tends to be about saying something someone doesn't agree with and then...it becomes a long standing personal conflict that bounces around from noticeboard to noticeboard because we are ill equipped to deal with ''personal conflict'' and brush it under the carpet or try to deal with it as an intervention issue and not just like EVERY other issue on other boards where the community discusses the issue and makes a non binding determination with a consensus. Yes, I agree with lightbreather that we need something so, sometime back I created ] to begin creating a board like what Lightbreather is asking about...while trying very hard '''not''' to be Wikiquette assistance. You see, Misplaced Pages has no etiquette, which is simply ''"a code of behavior that delineates expectations..."''. We also don't deal well with conflict and DR/N is absolutely ''not'' designed to deal with it, almost at all. My hope is still that someday we can have a ], similar to ] that deals with ''content disputes'' but much simpler and styled like the other noticeboards to try and deal with ''personal conflict''.--] (]) 20:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::Dang, {{u|Newyorkbrad}}, PAIN - which was, wow, deleted over five years ago - is even closer to what I'm thinking about than the "Wikiquette assistance" board that was shut down two years ago. But for civility issues that have policies, it seems like something that ought to be resurrected. I don't know about other conduct issues, but if an editor personally attacks or harasses another, it is easy to prove. Such conduct should get one warning, then a short (72 hours?) ban or block, then, if repeated, a longer ban/block, and so on. I would wager, from my own experience and observation, that persistent, unsubstantiated personal attacks and harassment have driven away a lot of decent editors. ] (]) 23:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::Oh...I see, you are more concerned with personal attacks than conflict. Yeah....we have AN/I for that and it works well.--] (]) 00:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Don't get me wrong. A CRN sounds great, too, but a lot of the comments I read in the old discussion, and some here, seem to say that civility is just too subjective to address effectively. Broadly, that may be true, but some things - like PA and harassment - are pretty easy to prove with evidence, or the lack of it. ] (]) 00:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::CRN would not be about civility. It would be about personal conflict. What you seem to be suggesting is a board for strictly personal attacks and those are blockable offenses best dealt with by those with the tools on the board where such requests and reports are made. You state that ''"PA and harassment - are pretty easy to prove with evidence"'', really? Then what is the issue? I am not trying to be insulting, but I have spent the last few years of my Misplaced Pages "career" looking over these issues, volunteering at DRN, helping out at AN and ANI, as part of my effort to be a part of the solution, but have been harassed and attacked just for that. Personal attacks are the things that can be shown, but they don't always get resolved or sanctioned. The community needs to take control of the issue in the same manner as all other issues....with consensus.--] (]) 09:22, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| * On WQA our goal was not to "enforce" civility - it was to be a neutral 3rd (and 4th and 5th) party to help to break down the barriers to communication, and to advise people that civil communication was taken seriously. It was intended to stop possibly escalating incivility before it led to personal attacks. If the incident ''was'' already a heinous personal attack, or needlessly escalated into personal attacks, then we would report it to ANI for immediate action <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 20:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::That seems like a great service to the community! Too bad it was closed. And too soon, it seems. From the discussion at the time, it seems like the board's function was to be diverted to a 3O board for conduct (as opposed to content), or to a ] check process. For whatever reason, such oversight seems to have fallen through the cracks. ] (]) 00:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::An (IMO) peculiar aspect of the decision is that WQA was abolished on the basis that there was no need for it, but some of the key editors who promoted that subsequently tried to get 3O to take on the role (even though there was, supposedly, no need for it). But, in the end, 3O didn't want that role (understandably, because, realistically, it would have just meant constantly sign-posting people to ANI). A new hybrid WQA/3O board was suggested, but I don't think it was ever proposed. ] (]) 00:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I think that part of the reason is that ANI has been able to cope with the extra load, I really haven't noticed that much of an increase. If ANI starts buckling under the weight, it would probably create more interest in a separate board. ] | ] | ] 00:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::Realistically, all that fell on ANI, which has done "ok" in dealing with it, although not exceptional. ] | ] | ] 00:13, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It is what it is (god I hate that phrase...but here I am using it) but it does a better job than just OK...I do agree it is not exceptional, but then neither is Misplaced Pages in general from the perception of many. I am not sure where this discussion is going now...but I wait with baited breath to see where it leads.--] (]) 00:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Since I started the discussion, I'll say that I'm still digesting all of the comments here and in the links given. It's almost overwhelming. ] (]) 00:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Well, that's the backroom politics of Misplaced Pages for ya ... <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 08:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| As some have suggested above, it is a procedural and process failure. Civility is enforced ''ad hoc'' from social pressure to lecture, to forms of suppression, to block, to on up. So, if there were a will to regularize process you would want some standards and assessment: eg., if a good number uninvolved people say, 'geez, just stop that' you are assessed a point, a number of points leads to a 24 hour; a repeat with a lower number of points leads to 48 etc. You will always have the problem of the 'you are incivil' 'no, you are incivil' but that's no different from the problem of 'you are POV', 'no, you are POV'. ] (]) 14:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Which then ends up holding the most active and productive editors to an excruciatingly strict standard. The more good edits you make, and the more active you are, the more chances there are for someone to take offensive at something you have said or done. Its all subjective too, what if 5 people say cut it out, and 4 say whats the big deal? How does that compare to 14 saying cut it out, and 15 saying no big deal, or 2 people just saying cut it out? Hard and fast rule are rarely a good idea on Misplaced Pages. ]] 18:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::Incivility is not the usual domain of the active, nor productive. Excruciatingly strict? Not in my experience of Wikipedians. If you can get a good number of uninvolved to agree on something like "cut it out", you know there are tacts that are not working for colleagues. ] (]) 18:57, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| === If Misplaced Pages wants more editors === | |||
| The response, so far, I think is pretty telling: including myself, 11. Though I don't advertise it, I am a woman; nine of the others are or appear to be men; the other, {{u|DangerousPanda}}, I'm not sure about. I think that if civility were more strongly enforced on WP, there would be more women editing, and that would improve the project. The ''status quo'', IMO, does not. ] (]) 21:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| : Using {{tlx|they|DangerousPanda}} shows: {{they|DangerousPanda}}. Let's not try to equate civility to attracting female editors to the project - there's zero relationship between those, and such a statement is sexist in itself - if I suggested that women couldn't be abrasive, I'd be neutered <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 21:31, 26 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| Surprised to show up this morning to find two of my edits deleted from ], and then found that for multiple editors (including admins) were deleted spanning a block of 16 hours and multiple sections. Seem's like either an oversized-mop was used, or an accident occurred here. ] ] 16:04, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == RFC Closing Questions == | |||
| :{{reply|Tiggerjay}} That link is not so useful I'm afraid :) ]'']''] 16:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Agreed, although I'm not sure a better way, since it was literally every page history entry for a 16 hour period, and the date filter would almost be useless since it spanned into today. ] ] 19:41, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :@] as per the section above ], Someone on the oversight team has ] a number of revisions. If it was something that had been there for some time then that will have required a lot of revisions to be covered in the suppression. ] (]) 16:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :: I wish we could ] edits so we didn't have to do this, but ]. ] ] 17:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Destined to fail on two counts I'm afraid: a) it involves actual change, and b) it's a good idea. ]'']''] 17:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Third count: for huge pages like ANI it's not technically possible with the software as it currently stands. It is technically possible, albeit a total pain, for smaller pages. ] ] 17:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I saw that one from a few days ago (and other similar instances) but that spanned a several minutes and less than a dozen edits, this was many hours and over a hundred different edits. It was just astonishing to see so much blown away that it must have been a mistake, but I guess that is the only choice when something egregious isn't suppressed right away. Given that way most ANI discussions occur its unfortunate that a more selective revdel cannot be used since individual edits don't frequently span other conversations. ] ] 20:28, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Editable archives == | |||
| First, if an RFC is closed, should it be deleted from the list of RFCs awaiting closure? I assume that is yes. | |||
| It seems that the ANI archive pages (e.g. ]) have section edit links. This is not normal on archive pages: is it something special to ANI, or a mistake somewhere? --] 🌹 (]) 19:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Second, if it is difficult to determine consensus, possibly because the RFC had few responses and did not have a proper Survey section, so that it is hard to tell what the !votes are, should this be noted in the closure, with a comment to the effect that a better-formed RFC can be opened if there is a desire to get better consensus? | |||
| :Maybe {{tl|Administrators' noticeboard navbox all}} can be taught to emit the flag to inhibit that, iff transcluded onto a "subpage" (or "a subpage containing the string 'archive'")? ] (]) 20:43, 13 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 23:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::That wasn't too hard. Which means I probably broke something as a side-effect. Trouts of various sizes welcome as appropriate. ] (]) 16:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, it's suppressed the edit links, so {{ty}} for that. --] 🌹 (]) 21:05, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Broken code in blue "Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents" box == | |||
| *When closing, the closer should pull the template, and the bot will automatically delist in time. If the RFC hasn't had much participation, it should be relisted. instead of closed, like we do AFDs. ] | ] | ] 23:43, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::What template? Where are the instructions about the template? My question is whether the entry in ] should be deleted. I don't think that is done by a bot. ] (]) 02:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| At the bottom of it: | |||
| :::I believe Dennis thought you were referring to the article talk page, so he is referring to the RfC template. Yes, the entry at AN is deleted and archived manually; the current archive is ]. For discussions I've closed, I place a <nowiki>{{done}}</nowiki> template and let someone else do the archiving, in case anyone wants to check my conclusions. | |||
| <small>Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are ] automatically by ]. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the ] subpage.</small> | |||
| :::If it is difficult to determine consensus, I would say that this very much requires a case-by-case approach - though take this with a grain of salt, since I've only been doing closures for a few months now. I haven't seen any RfCs get relisted yet, but if you think the formulation of the RfC is an issue (which sounds like it might be the case in your example), I would let the editors start a new RfC with better wording or instructions, and might make recommendations on how to do that. I can usually determine editors' opinions even without a proper Survey section, but if I couldn't I would probably leave the close for someone more familiar with the topic. ''''']''''' ''<font size="1.8">(])</font>'' 04:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| |- | class="plainlinks" style="border: 1px solid #aaaaaa; background: var(--color-inverted, #fff); text-align: center; font-size: 125%;" | '''''' | |||
| ::::The difference between AFD and RFC is of course that AFD asks one question: "Should article (Name) be deleted, with known alternatives such as Merge and Redirect. An RFC asks whatever question is asked by its author and is formatted by the author. If the RFC doesn't have Survey and Threaded Discussion questions, and the question isn't clear, then it may not be possible to determine consensus. There are other reasons why there may not be consensus. If the issue is whether to include criticisms of a politician, then the Oppose !votes are clear, but if different editors support entering different criticisms, there is no clear consensus. I had to close that one with a recommendation to post a new RFC for each different criticism. Thank you. ] (]) 15:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| Pretty sure the "|- | class= " etc. bit isn't supposed to be there. -] <sub>]</sub> 04:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Should WT:ANRFC redirect here? == | |||
| :{{ping|The Bushranger}} I think I fixed it. ] (]) 17:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == "]" listed at ] == | |||
| ] redirects here. Shouldn't ] as well? ] (]) 23:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ] | |||
| :I don't think so. Everything on that talk page for the entire history of it has been about the RFC side of AN/RFC, not the general AN side. Cheers, ''''']'''''</span> (]) 23:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> to the page ] has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 19#Misplaced Pages:REPORT}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 10:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * No <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 23:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
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Significant 100+ edits wiped out from WP:AN
Surprised to show up this morning to find two of my edits deleted from WP:AN, and then found that over 100 edits for multiple editors (including admins) were deleted spanning a block of 16 hours and multiple sections. Seem's like either an oversized-mop was used, or an accident occurred here. TiggerJay (talk) 16:04, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Tiggerjay: That link is not so useful I'm afraid :) SerialNumber54129 16:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, although I'm not sure a better way, since it was literally every page history entry for a 16 hour period, and the date filter would almost be useless since it spanned into today. TiggerJay (talk) 19:41, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Tiggerjay as per the section above #Edit summaries wiped out, Someone on the oversight team has suppressed a number of revisions. If it was something that had been there for some time then that will have required a lot of revisions to be covered in the suppression. Nthep (talk) 16:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I wish we could rebase edits so we didn't have to do this, but nobody seems to agree with me. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Destined to fail on two counts I'm afraid: a) it involves actual change, and b) it's a good idea. SerialNumber54129 17:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Third count: for huge pages like ANI it's not technically possible with the software as it currently stands. It is technically possible, albeit a total pain, for smaller pages. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Destined to fail on two counts I'm afraid: a) it involves actual change, and b) it's a good idea. SerialNumber54129 17:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I saw that one from a few days ago (and other similar instances) but that spanned a several minutes and less than a dozen edits, this was many hours and over a hundred different edits. It was just astonishing to see so much blown away that it must have been a mistake, but I guess that is the only choice when something egregious isn't suppressed right away. Given that way most ANI discussions occur its unfortunate that a more selective revdel cannot be used since individual edits don't frequently span other conversations. TiggerJay (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I wish we could rebase edits so we didn't have to do this, but nobody seems to agree with me. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Editable archives
It seems that the ANI archive pages (e.g. Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1173) have section edit links. This is not normal on archive pages: is it something special to ANI, or a mistake somewhere? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe {{Administrators' noticeboard navbox all}} can be taught to emit the flag to inhibit that, iff transcluded onto a "subpage" (or "a subpage containing the string 'archive'")? DMacks (talk) 20:43, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- That wasn't too hard. Which means I probably broke something as a side-effect. Trouts of various sizes welcome as appropriate. DMacks (talk) 16:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, it's suppressed the edit links, so
Thank you for that. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:05, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, it's suppressed the edit links, so
- That wasn't too hard. Which means I probably broke something as a side-effect. Trouts of various sizes welcome as appropriate. DMacks (talk) 16:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Broken code in blue "Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents" box
At the bottom of it:
Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage.
|- | class="plainlinks" style="border: 1px solid #aaaaaa; background: var(--color-inverted, #fff); text-align: center; font-size: 125%;" | Start a new discussion
Pretty sure the "|- | class= " etc. bit isn't supposed to be there. -The Bushranger One ping only 04:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger: I think I fixed it. Jip Orlando (talk) 17:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
"Misplaced Pages:REPORT" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect Misplaced Pages:REPORT to the page Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages only reports what the sources say has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 19 § Misplaced Pages:REPORT until a consensus is reached. 67.209.129.48 (talk) 10:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)