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Revision as of 18:09, 2 September 2014 editBluerasberry (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, File movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers56,645 edits Cancer Research UK Cancer Stats?: reply...← Previous edit Latest revision as of 17:02, 22 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,291,616 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)/Archive 32) (bot 
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| author = Noam Cohem

| title = How Misplaced Pages Prevents the Spread of Coronavirus Misinformation
== Re a recent change to wording / meaning ==
| org = ]

| url = https://www.wired.com/story/how-wikipedia-prevents-spread-coronavirus-misinformation/
A change of wording (by {{U|NuclearWarfare}}) that currently appears in the ] subsection seems to me to be significant. The change is from<blockquote>Research papers that describe original experiments are primary sources; however, they normally contain previous-work sections that are secondary sources (these sections are often incomplete</blockquote>to<blockquote> Research papers that describe original experiments are primary sources; however, they normally contain sections that place their research in the context of previous work. These sections <u>may be considered secondary sources for the purpose of this guideline</u>, but note that these sections are often incomplete</blockquote><p>The current wording seems to me to imply that such content may be considered an acceptable secondary source under certain circumstances. I feel the wording and positioning of this statement needs some attention to avoid unintended interpretations. So I made for the sake of clarity, which hasn't actually survived <small>(just for the record, backstory details ]).</small> Either way, such changes to the wording seem to me to have some substantial implications, and probably require consensus (or otherwise) to be reached here.
| date = March 15, 2020

| quote = Misplaced Pages shows, however, that extreme circumstances, especially when related to public health, require different, more stringent rules, not better application of existing rules. The stakes are simply too high.
Fwiw, I don't have strong feelings on this, though I too would tend to support a flexible approach in such situations (I think). ] (]) 19:12, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
:NuclearWarfare is correct: previous-work sections (that exceed a couple of sentences) are (usually) secondary sources. (The presence of analytical statements is key.)
| author2 = Jackson Ryan
:The thorny question is really whether we want to advertise this fact to editors. Advertising it to editors like NuclearWarfare would be an excellent idea. NW's groks due weight and is already attuned to the risks of using these sections. Advertising it to a very inexperienced editor or a POV pusher would probably not be such a good idea. We may end up with refspam, creeping reliance on primaries, and cherry picking. I don't know what to recommend here. ] (]) 19:53, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
| title2 = Inside Misplaced Pages's endless war over the coronavirus lab leak theory

| org2 = ]
::Per WAID's considerations, I had two main thoughts about how we might handle the actual wording:
| url2 = https://www.cnet.com/features/inside-wikipedias-endless-war-over-the-coronavirus-lab-leak-theory/
::* that it's probably better to discuss use of research papers after (rather than before) talking about reviews;
| date2 = June 24, 2021
::* it's perhaps a good idea to specify rather clearly the sort of situation in which it's appropriate to source information contained in a research paper.
| quote2 = The exclusion of the ] from Misplaced Pages predominantly rests on established guidelines. Chief among them is one known by editors as WP:MEDRS. It refers to the referencing of "biomedical" information on Misplaced Pages, stating sources must be "reliable, third-party published secondary sources, and must accurately reflect current knowledge." It's a guideline that has launched a thousand Talk page disputes.
::In (diff ) I felt I was probably interpreting both NW's thoughts and broader consensus (though I accept I should probably have discussed here before making the actual change). ] (]) 20:27, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
}}

::], maybe one thought would be to add in a stipulation that in the cases of contentious topics, primary sources are a no go when even citing the introduction as a form of secondary literature? That way we could allow primary literature introductions in cases where it's something that should be cited from a journal, but isn't anything likely to be in an area where a POV pusher could really do damage. If I'm citing a paper that lists in its introduction what pathogens penicillin has been used against, that would seem like a non-issue, but cherry picking a fringe paper that mentions a link to autism with vaccinations in its introduction would definitely be a cause for concern. So basically say primary sources can be used with caution in this sense, but if anyone raises a fuss, it's gone.

::This is just a potential solution, but determining what would be a contentious topic would be subjective, so I'm not sure how feasible the idea would be. This could allow some flexibility where we can error on the side of caution, and just say that if someone at all disputes the addition of a primary source's content, it's then contentious and shouldn't be used. If we’re going to have some ambiguity in the guideline, I’d at least say have that wiggle room skewed towards the use of secondary sources rather than make it easy to put in primary sources. Personally I’d prefer just secondary sources for the reasons you mentioned above, but maybe this approach might work? ] (]) 18:28, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
:::That's an interesting way to address the problem. I think it would work, at least if people are challenging it for actual/specific reasons, rather than the sort of "I challenge every sentence followed by a primary source from here to infinity" thing that we see every now and again. It's not very different in spirit from the line that we use at ], which is that any external link that's is disputed should be removed: assume that it's fine, remove if there are indications that it's not. However, it's a bit more complicated, given that we're supporting article information. A weak source is sometimes better than no source.
:::], what do you think? Do you think that there's a risk of this being gamed? I'm a little bit worried about people adding REFSPAM, and moderately worried about people fussing that the source isn't good enough, but not being willing to replace it with a better one themselves. ] (]) 22:44, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

::::Grok, now there's an interesting phrase that I haven't heard of before. I like it.<p>Anyway, as to the point raised by ] <small>(had a hard time not reading that as "King of faces," which weirded me out a little)</small>: it's a defensible position. And I know how easy it is for "" mistakes to spread even just within in the professional literature, because peer reviewers and editors often don't seriously review the background sections. But I think it's taken a little bit far. I just added some content to the ] article last week that summarized the latest state of the ] literature. For that, I largely relied on the background sections of the major RCTs that have been published in the area (all in either the major general medical journals or the major speciality journals, so high quality sources). This information simply hasn't been well synthesized in reviews yet. It's a little too new (~seven years since the original trials started being published) and a little too controversial (partly because the observed data has high variance) for treatment guidelines. But I think it is still important for Misplaced Pages to reflect the consensus in the broader field. This change would take it a little too far in prohibiting that, at least as I read it. How about something like the following: {{!xt|Research papers that describe original experiments are primary sources; however, they normally contain sections that place their research in the context of previous work. These sections may be used in Misplaced Pages with care. As they are often incomplete, such citations ] by another editor should be replaced by a more comprehensive source .}} I'd welcome input. '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 01:42, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

:::::I would amend it to {{!xt|Research papers that describe original experiments are primary sources; however, they normally contain sections that place their research in the context of previous work. These sections may be used in Misplaced Pages with care. As they are often incomplete, such citations ] by another editor should be removed or preferably replaced by a more comprehensive source if possible.}} Verifiability and reliability of content are what makes up core policy for Misplaced Pages's content standards, so I'd rather see it be harder to add information from primary sources (although still possible). The purpose of this set up is to raise the bar of reliability for any content or topic considered contentious (which seems like it should be the case anyways), and to allow the possibility of primary sources in less contentious topics where there likely wouldn’t be a dispute anyways.


__TOC__
:::::What I’m not sure about though is how this would affect the quality of articles depending on how active editors are. In other words, would it be easier for poor quality content and sources to creep in for lesser known topics, or is this happening already since they aren’t checked as often anyways? This approach would basically endorse that we accept lower quality evidence for some articles, but require more for others. I'm a little split on that thought. I think this is good in contentious topics so that we can stick to high quality sources and avoid a lot of the issues that come from POV, reliability, and other common problems in those discussions, but I’m not so sure about essentially endorsing what seems like a lesser standard for potentially less checked topics. Maybe it’s not really that different than what typically goes on now though? ] (]) 15:08, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


== A small 'licence' query... ==
::::::{{reply-to|Kingofaces43}} You're right that it's always best to use the highest quality sources possible, even for lower profile articles, but part of the consequences of certain topics being lower profile is that the highest quality sources don't always exist. I think that your phrasing is fine. Perhaps we can do more to emphasize that we really do mean that the challenge must be in good faith as to the editor's concern about <s>The Truth<small><sup>(TM)</sup></small></s> factualness of the statement. '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 21:30, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
::::::::If you two wanted to take a baby step towards this, rather than plunging forward (which I'm not opposed to), then you could limit its application to "subjects, such as rare diseases, for which review articles and reference works are not abundant". Alternatively, you could try it out for a while and see what happens. We can always remove this statement if it proves to cause problems.
::::::::In response to a comment above, there are types of basic information that people expect an article to contain (e.g., basic information about signs and symptoms, epidemiology, diagnostic process, typical treatment), regardless of whether that information happens to be present in a review or reference book that was published in the last five or ten years. ] (]) 23:48, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
::::::::: Sorry I'm a little late in responding ], but in a case of basic information like you describe, wouldn't that then be something unlikely to be contested? The type of content you're describing sounds like it wouldn't be contentious at all, and if someone did raise a fuss about the sourced content (then showing there is some contention) then the editors would have to go to more reliable secondary sources as they probably would do anyways to show the information is indeed factual and not some artifact from being in the primary literature. It seems like a fluid way to handle the situation, so I'm curious where you see an issue in your example? I'm not seeing one, but if you could explain what you're thinking of a bit more maybe we can figure out a way to tighten up the language a bit more. ] (]) 16:32, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Even if the specific information is unlikely to be challenged, good editors are usually dissatisfied with their work if there are zero sources in an entire section. ] (]) 16:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


...regarding NICE CKS sourcing in edit (self-reverted as a scruple), which I feel helps provide key introductory information to <nowiki>]</nowiki> succinctly and really quite conveniently. CKS was ] back in 2014 (I was actually the OP then), and I believe the consensus then that it was permissable to use CKS, even though it is not accessible outside the UK. Now, CKS comes with a scary , which states :
== Avoiding Discussion of Causation with Evasion ==


<blockquote>2.1 You agree that you are only allowed to Use the Topics if you:
{{tb|Talk:Selective_serotonin_reuptake_inhibitor#Avoiding_Discussion_of_Causation_with_Evasion}}
(i) Are an individual; in which case:
You are allowed to Use for personal and/or your own educational purposes only and not on behalf of or for the benefit of any company, ''organisation'', or business.
<br>...<br>
2.2 If you are not an individual or a clinician (as defined above), you must contact Us for a commercial licence. If you do not, you understand that by Using the Topics ''you or your organisation'' will be infringing Our intellectual property rights.
<br>2.3 For the avoidance of doubt, the following, without limitation, are not permitted to Use the Topics (but may do so by contacting Agilio and entering into a commercial licence):<br>...<br>
(iii) companies, businesses, and ''any other private enterprises'' that are not part of the National Health Service.</blockquote>


I'm not sure whether Misplaced Pages is affected by this. Hence the query. ] (]) 14:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
== Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome ==


:I doubt that it's a problem. See 3.1(v): "You cannot Use the Topics to create other material, such as books, articles, or guidance. This does not prevent you from referring to appropriately referenced extracts of Topics." Citing it as a source behind text that you have written in your own words presumably counts as "appropriate referencing". ] (]) 17:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
It appears that ] may be a medical article based on primary sources, contrary to the advice on this project page. But as a layman, I would like to hear from others better qualified to offer an opinion. ] (]) 22:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


::Thank you for that WAID. It would seem crazy to provide reliable medical information that can't even be cited, but hey what do I know? I'll restore the edit given that this is a really useful medrs, imo (I've sometimes found it tricky to find a good medrs that summarizes key basic info in a readily citable form). ] (]) 18:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
==Why Not ]?==


== Notice about possibly relevant discussion ==
] are sources in which the authors directly participated in the research or documented their personal experiences. They examined the patients, injected the rats, filled the test tubes, or at least supervised those who did. Many, but not all, papers published in medical journals are primary sources for facts about the research and discoveries made. That being the case, why shouldn't ] be referenced in articles about medical subject matter? ] (]) 17:35, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
:This issue has been discussed a ''ton'' on this page - just search this page and the archive for "primary" and you will find tons of explanations. You can also see an essay I wrote called "Why MEDRS"? ]. The very short answer is: 1) all WP content should be sourced from secondary sources as per ]. Secondary sources tell us how much ] to give information - it is beyond your authority or mine as ''editors'' here, to make those decisions. 2) More specific to the biomedical space.... Scientists publish their work to talk ''to each other''; we happen to live in an era where we can witness that. But basic research in the biomedical space is ''exploratory'' - many hypotheses are tested and preliminary conclusions are drawn... and many of those turn out to false leads/dead ends. Experts in basic and clinical research sort themselves out - map where knowledge stands - in review articles (secondary sources). Those reviews tend to talk about what hypotheses are looking to be true and productive; they don't waste time documenting all the dead ends. The literature is littered with basic research papers that turned out to be dead ends (not retracted -- not egregiously flawed or fraudulent science - but just dead ends) and those papers just ''sit there'' in the literature. You or I have no way of knowing which have results that the field has found true and productive, and which are not. So we avoid them like the plague. 3) we are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and not a cutting edge journal. Our mission is to give reliable information to the public. So we don't add content based on the latest hyped-in-the-media paper, and we try to hard to only include content that is supported by ''experts in the field, reviewing the field'' - that is how we ensure the content is reliable. ] (]) 20:16, 4 August 2014 (UTC)


]
== ] Cancer Stats? ==


TLDR; can a dermatologists' testimony about the spread of scabies in an Israeli prison, and the need for hygiene be used in ], or would that violate ]. ] (]) 06:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Do medical editors here have any particular views on the appropriateness or otherwise of using as a reliable medical source, especially when recent pertinent MEDRS are hard to come by (e.g. for coeliac disease as a putative risk factor for esophageal carcinoma - vs. )? Although their Cancer Stats parent page gives the impression of being only UK, in reality this internally researched source of public information also provides some more global content. <small>(ping {{U|Wiki CRUK John}} to alert him of this query)</small> ] (]) 15:26, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
:The service is reliable enough, but Misplaced Pages does not present statistics unless those statistics are themselves reported by a secondary source. There are some exceptions which are commonly reported in infoboxes. You are proposing to reference interpretations of the statistics. In my opinion, these kinds of states are often useful, but I have never seen these kinds of statements made often on Misplaced Pages so there may be other opinions if anyone tries doing this. I like the idea. ]] 18:09, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


== Discussion on Electronic Harassment ==
==Acupuncture source==
Hello, there is a discussion on ] about whether declaring a group 'delusional' falls under WP:MEDRS at ]. This could use some editors more familiar with Misplaced Pages's standards. ] (]) 13:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Seeking comments re a 2011 review of reviews by Ernst (PMID 21440191). (This may have come up here before; I know it came up someplace, but I can't remember where.)


== Discussion at RSN that may include a medical claim ==
The debate is about how to interpret a particular sentence in context. It boils down to a right and wrong way to read a source and unfortunately requires more than just a glance (but not much more than, say, 10-15 minutes, depending on one's background). I've outlined the issue at ]. That should provide enough background, but I ''highly'' recommend also reading the paper if possible. Feel free to email me for a copy.


Help with ] would be appreciated. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 16:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Note: Unfortunately, there's been some heat over there; hoping for lots of light! (And also hoping to keep this focused just on content and not on personalities.) Thank you very much for your time! --] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:55, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:02, 22 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Identifying reliable sources (medicine) page.
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Ideal sources for Misplaced Pages's health content are defined in the guideline Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Identifying reliable sources (medicine).
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This is an explanatory essay about the Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) policy.
This page provides additional information about concepts in the page(s) it supplements. This page is not one of Misplaced Pages's policies or guidelines as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community.
Explanatory essay about the Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) policy

These are some Frequently Asked Questions about Misplaced Pages's guidelines on sourcing for medical content, manual of style for medicine-related articles, and how the guidelines and policies apply to biomedical content.

General Does Misplaced Pages have special rules for medical information?

Yes, but the guidelines for medical information follow the same broad principles as the rest of Misplaced Pages. Examples of this include the requirement for reliable sources and the preference for secondary sources over primary sources. These apply to both medical and non-medical information. However, there are differences in the details of the guidelines, such as which sources are considered reliable.

Why do you have special rules for medical information?

Different types of sources have different strengths and weaknesses. A type of source that is good for scientific information is not usually as reliable for political information, and vice versa. Since Misplaced Pages's readers may make medical decisions based on information found in our articles, we want to use high-quality sources when writing about biomedical information. Many sources that are acceptable for other types of information under Misplaced Pages's general sourcing guideline, such as the popular press, are not suitable sources for reliable medical information. (See also: WP:MEDPOP and WP:WHYMEDRS)

When do I need to follow MEDRS?

MEDRS-compliant sources are required for all biomedical information. Like the policy on the biographies of living people ("BLP"), MEDRS applies to statements and not to articles: biomedical statements in non-medical articles need to comply with MEDRS, while non-medical statements in medical articles do not need to follow MEDRS. Also like BLP, the spirit of MEDRS is to err on the side of caution when making biomedical statements. Content about human biochemistry or about medical research in animals is also subject to MEDRS if it is relevant to human health.

Sourcing I used a peer-reviewed source, but it was reverted, and the editor said I needed to use a review. I did, didn't I?

Probably not. Most peer-reviewed articles are not review articles. The very similar names are easily confused. For most (not all) purposes, the ideal source is a peer-reviewed review article.

Why can't I use primary sources?

Primary sources aren't completely banned, but they should only be used in rare situations. An individual primary source may be flawed, such as being a clinical trial that uses too few volunteers. There have been cases where primary sources have been outright fraudulent. Furthermore, a single primary source may produce a different result to what multiple other primary sources suggest, even if it is a high-quality clinical trial. Secondary sources serve two purposes: they combine the results of all relevant primary sources and they filter out primary sources that are unreliable. Secondary sources are not infallible, but they have less room for error than a primary source.

This follows a principle that guides the whole of Misplaced Pages. If a company announces a notable new product, Misplaced Pages would not cite a press release on the company's website (a primary source) but instead would cite a newspaper article that covers it (a secondary source). The difference with medical information is that the popular press are not suitable sources.

Whenever possible, you should cite a secondary source such as:

So if primary sources can be used in rare cases, what are those rare cases?

Primary sources might be useful in these common situations:

  • when writing about a rare disease, uncommon procedure, etc., for which no high-quality secondary literature is available, or for which the available secondary sources do not cover all of the information normally included in an encyclopedia article.
  • when mentioning a famous paper or clinical trial that made a recognized substantial impact, as part of a purely historical treatment of a topic.
  • when describing major research that has made a significant impact (i.e., continued and substantial coverage). While recent research results are normally omitted, it is sometimes necessary to include them for WP:DUE weight. In this case, it is usually preferable to read and cite the primary scientific literature in preference to WP:PRIMARYNEWS sources. Later, these primary sources can be replaced or supplemented with citations to high-quality secondary sources.
Why can't I use articles from the popular press?

The popular press includes many media outlets which are acceptable sources for factual information about current events, sometimes with significant caveats. It also includes media outlets which are discouraged in all cases because the quality of their journalism is inadequate. However, even high-quality media outlets have disadvantages in the context of medicine.

Firstly, news articles on medicine will frequently be reporting a new medical primary source, such as the results of a new study. This means that they are effectively acting as a primary source, which as explained above makes those articles generally unsuitable for medical information. These articles also tend to omit important information about the study. If a medical primary source is to be cited at all, the academic paper should be cited directly.

Secondly, media coverage of medical topics is often sensationalist. They tend to favor new, dramatic or interesting stories over predictable ones, even though studies that reflect the current scientific consensus tend to be predictable results. They tend to overemphasize the certainty of any result, such as reporting a study result as a conclusive "discovery" before it has been peer-reviewed or tested by other scientists. They may also exaggerate its significance; for instance, presenting a new and experimental treatment as "the cure" for a disease or an every-day substance as "the cause" of a disease. The sensationalism affects both which stories they choose to cover and the content of their coverage.

High-quality media outlets can be good sources of non-medical information in an article about a medical topic. Another acceptable use is using a popular press article to give a plain English summary of an academic paper (use the |laysummary= parameter of {{cite journal}} for this).

I have a source from PubMed, so that's reliable right?

Not necessarily. PubMed is merely a search engine and the majority of content it indexes is not WP:MEDRS. Searches on PUBMED may be narrowed to secondary sources (reviews, systematic reviews, meta-analyses, etc.) so it is a useful tool for source hunting.

It is a common misconception that because a source appears in PubMed it is published by, or has the approval of, the National Institutes of Health (NIH), National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI), or the US government. These organisations support the search engine but lend no particular weight to the content it indexes.

Can I use websites like Quackwatch?

Quackwatch is a self-published website by an author who is an expert in problems with complementary and alternative medicine. Whenever possible, you should use a scholarly source instead of Quackwatch. However, if no scholarly sources are available, and the subject is still notable, then it might be reasonable to cite Quackwatch with WP:INTEXT attribution to the POV.

Can I cite Chinese studies about Traditional Chinese Medicine?

As of 2014, there are concerns regarding positive bias in publications from China on Traditional Chinese Medicine. Such sources should be used with caution. The problem also includes issues with the academic system in China.

Can I cite NCCAM (now NCCIH)?

Yes, but again only with WP:DUE weight. Unlike other branches of the National Institutes of Health, which are generally accepted as authoritative in their fields, NCCAM has been the focus of significant criticism from within the scientific community. Whenever possible, you should cite the established literature directly.

What if I can’t find any MEDRS-compliant sources on a subject?

MEDRS contains a section about finding sources which may be helpful. Alternatively, a more experienced editor may be able to help you find them (or to confirm that they do not exist).

Neutrality What is a fringe medical claim?

A fringe medical claim is one that differs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in the scientific medical community. This is similar to Misplaced Pages's general definition of a fringe claim. A claim can still be a fringe medical claim even if it has a large following in other areas of public life (such as politics and the popular press).

How should fringe medical claims be described?

When fringe claims have been widely reported in the press, have a large popular following, and/or have a long history, it may be appropriate to describe them in terms of that reporting, popularity, or history. However, weight should be determined by MEDRS-compliant sources, and the context (or lack thereof) should not make implications about medical statements that are not supported by such sources. Guidance on the additional considerations relevant to fringe subjects can be found at WP:FRINGE, as well as at other places such as WP:WEIGHT and WP:EXCEPTIONAL.

In the case of alternative medicine, medical statements are often derived from an underlying belief system, which will include many propositions that are not subject to MEDRS. These propositions are subject to the usual sourcing requirements and the usual requirements for determining fringe status.

If a treatment hasn't been shown to work, can we say it doesn't work?

There are three possible situations:

  • No evidence exists, either became no studies for the treatment have been published, or because the studies published are too small or weak to draw any conclusions.
  • Evidence exists, and it shows no effect.
  • Evidence exists, and it shows an effect.

In the first case, we cannot say that it does not work, but we can say that there is no evidence to determine whether it works. After multiple, high-quality independent studies have been published, the understanding may transition from "no evidence" to "some evidence" of either an effect or no effect. You should follow the lead of review articles and other secondary sources for determining when this threshold has been crossed.

Reports may conflict with each other. For example, a clinical trial may produce no evidence of an effect, but the treatment's manufacturer might produce testimonials claiming a positive effect. You should follow the lead of review articles and other secondary sources for determining how to balance these claims.

Should medical content be attributed?

In other words, is it necessary to say in the article's text the source which supports a medical statement (with attribution)? Or can it simply be stated as an unchallenged fact, with the source only mentioned in the citation (without attribution)? A statement without attribution will come across as being a stronger claim than one with attribution.

A result or statement from a reliable secondary source should be included without attribution if it is not disputed by any other recent secondary sources. You should do a search to check that the secondary source you are citing is the most up-to-date assessment of the topic.

If there have been two recent secondary sources that contradict each other, then you should attribute the disputed findings. On the other hand, if the findings of one or more recent secondary sources are disputed by one or more secondary sources from many years ago, but not by any recent ones, the recent findings can be stated without attribution. You should also take into account the relative weight secondary sources have. For example, Cochrane Collaboration reviews provide stronger evidence than a regular secondary source.

In the rare cases where primary sources can be used, they should be attributed.

Why not say there is a call for more research?

It is common for scientific publications to say something like this, either directly or indirectly. There are several reasons for this. It could be argued that more research is always a bonus, even if the topic has already been thoroughly researched. Sometimes, these statements may be made partly because authors need to convince readers that the topic is important in order to secure future funding sources. As such, saying this does not communicate much information, and it may also mislead readers into thinking that the existing information on a topic is less reliable than it really is.

How can Quackwatch be considered a reliable source?

As noted above, Quackwatch does not meet the usual standard as a reliable source, but it can be used (with attribution) for information on a topic of alternative and complementary medicine if there are no scholarly sources available for the same purpose. The guidelines on fringe theories includes the concept of parity: if a notable fringe theory is primarily described by self-published sources, then verifiable and reliable criticism of the fringe theory does not need to be published in a peer-reviewed journal. It only needs to come from a better source.

Finding and using sources How can I find good sources using PubMed? National Library of Medicine (NLM), PubMed, NCBI, & MEDLINE help, tutorials, documentation, & support

Full, searchable list of all tutorials - training materials in HTML, PDF and Video formats

YouTube channel for the National Library of Medicine: Tutorial videos from the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI), part of the U.S. National Library of Medicine. Includes presentations and tutorials about NCBI biomolecular and biomedical literature databases and tools.

PubMed FAQs

PubMed User Guide - FAQs

National Library of Medicine (NLM) Catalog

NLM Catalog Help - This book contains information on the NLM Catalog, a database which provides access to NLM bibliographic data for journals, books, audiovisuals, computer software, electronic resources, and other materials via the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) Entrez retrieval system. The NLM Catalog includes links to full text materials and the library's holdings in LocatorPlus, NLM's online public access catalog.

NLM Catalog (rev. December 19, 2019).

Overview

FAQs

Searching NLM Catalog

Finding journals that comply with WP:MEDRS standards

For full comprehensive instructions, go to: Searching for Journals in NLM Catalog

Determine if a specific journal is indexed in MEDLINE If you know the full or abbreviated name for a journal, and you want to see if it is indexed in MEDLINE, see the instructions at searching by journal title, which I will also reproduce here:

If you know the journal’s exact title, enter it in the NLM Catalog search box followed by the field qualifier .

Example:
The Journal of Supportive Oncology
Results = 1 record retrieved:
The Journal of Supportive Oncology

If you know the journal’s NLM Title Abbreviation, enter it in the NLM Catalog search box, followed by the field qualifier .

Example:
n engl j med
Results = 1 record retrieved:
The New England journal of medicine
Review the list of Abridged Index Medicus journals

Via a search of the NLM Catalog: List of Abridged Index Medicus journals, also known as "Core clinical journals".

Stand alone list: List of current Abridged Index Medicus (AIM) journals (118 journals as of 5 May 2020)

Create a list of all Index Medicus journals

Search the NLM Catalog using jsubsetim to find all Index Medicus journals (5021 journals as of 29 May 2020); or go directly to the search results for all Index Medicus journals. (Note that immediately above "Search Results" on that page, you can change the default "20 per page" to as many as 200 results per page, and you can change how the results are "sorted", e.g., if you are looking for a specific journal, you can sort by Title, instead of the default.)

====Create a list of all journals indexed in MEDLINE}} Search the NLM Catalog using currentlyindexed to find all journals indexed in MEDLINE (5266 journals as of 29 May 2020); or go directly to the search results for all journals indexed in MEDLINE. (Note that immediately above "Search Results" on that page, you can change the default "20 per page" to as many as 200 results per page, and you can change how the results are "sorted", e.g., if you are looking for a specific journal, you can sort by Title, instead of the default.)

MEDLINE, PubMed, and PMC (PubMed Central): How are they different?

MEDLINE, PubMed, and PMC (PubMed Central): How are they different?

Are there ways to find good sources other than PubMed? Besides being a secondary source, what else indicates a source is of high quality? I found what looks like a good source, but can't access the full text – what next?

Most scholarly journals are behind paywalls. Some options to access these articles include visiting a local university library, visiting The Misplaced Pages Library, and WikiProject Resource Requests.

Note that paywalled articles are frequently pirated and made available on the open web. When linking to a journal article, care must be taken not to link to such a pirate copy, as such a link would be a copyright violating link in contravention of Misplaced Pages's policy. In general if you find such a copy and it is not accompanied by text explicitly stating that it is made available with the permission of the copyright holder, assume that it is potentially infringing, and do not link to it. This holds for all edits in Misplaced Pages, not just in article space.

Google Scholar

Search for the title of the article on Google Scholar. On the results page, click on "All n versions" (where n = the number of available versions of that article) at the bottom of a listing. The resulting page might contain PDF or HTML versions of the article.

Unpaywall

Consult Unpaywall.org for journal articles available without a subscription. Install the UnPaywall extension for Chrome or Firefox to immediately identify articles with a free version. After you install the extension, look to the right side of the page (when you are on the website for an article) for either a grey locked symbol (no free version) or a green unlocked symbol (click on that symbol to access the full text version of the article).

Librarian's advice

An article by librarian John Mark Ockerbloom, titled, "Why Pay for What’s Free? Finding Open Access and Public Domain Articles" offers helpful suggestions.

How do I reference a medical article?

Almost all medical articles are indexed by the PubMed search engine and have a Digital object identifier (DOI) assigned to them. All articles included in PubMed are assigned an eight-digit PubMed identifier (PMID). These identifiers can be used to refer to articles, which is preferred to URLs as it makes a reliable link which is resilient to changes beyond our control – i.e. the publisher being acquired by another publisher and it's "normal" web URLs changing as a consequence.

Once you have the PMID, there are a number of tools such as this one which you can use to generate a full citation automatically.

In article references, the "doi" and "pmid" parameters are preferred to the "url" parameter for such reasons.

On Talk pages, when referring to journal articles, is it good practice to make any link using these types of identifier also:

  • Typing "]", where dddddddd is a PMID, will create a link to the indicated article.
  • Any DOI can be turned into a resolvable web address by prepending "https://doi.org/" to it (e.g. https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.c6801).
Conflict of interest Are there special considerations for conflicts of interest for health content?

See WP:MEDCOI.

What if I am being paid to edit medical content?

See WP:PAID.

References

References

  1. Laurent, MR; Vickers, TJ (2009). "Seeking health information online: does Misplaced Pages matter?". J Am Med Inform Assoc. 16 (4): 471–9. doi:10.1197/jamia.M3059. PMC 2705249. PMID 19390105.
  2. Schwitzer G (2008). "How do US journalists cover treatments, tests, products, and procedures? an evaluation of 500 stories". PLOS Med. 5 (5): e95. doi:10.1371/journal.pmed.0050095. PMC 2689661. PMID 18507496.
  3. Goldacre, Ben (2008-06-21). "Why reading should not be believing". Guardian.
  4. Dentzer S (2009). "Communicating medical news—pitfalls of health care journalism". N Engl J Med. 360 (1): 1–3. doi:10.1056/NEJMp0805753. PMID 19118299.
  5. Li J, et al The quality of reports of randomized clinical trials on traditional Chinese medicine treatments: a systematic review of articles indexed in the China National Knowledge Infrastructure database from 2005 to 2012. BMC Complement Altern Med. 2014 Sep 26;14:362. PMID 25256890
  6. Further information:
    • "Some countries publish unusually high proportions of positive results. Publication bias is a possible explanation. Researchers undertaking systematic reviews should consider carefully how to manage data from these countries." Vickers, Andrew (April 1, 1998), "Do certain countries produce only positive results? A systematic review of controlled trials.", Controlled Clinical Trials, 19 (2), Control Clin Trials: 159–66, doi:10.1016/s0197-2456(97)00150-5, PMID 9551280
    • Ernst, Edzard (2012). "Acupuncture: What Does the Most Reliable Evidence Tell Us? An Update". Journal of Pain and Symptom Management. 43 (2): e11–e13. doi:10.1016/j.jpainsymman.2011.11.001. ISSN 0885-3924. PMID 22248792.
  7. Qiu, Jane (January 12, 2010), "Publish or perish in China", Nature, 463 (7278): 142–143, doi:10.1038/463142a, PMID 20075887, S2CID 205052380
  8. Some examples:
    • Nature Reviews Cancer: "the subject of rancorous scientific and political debate over its mission and even continued existence"
    • Clinical Rheumatology: "The criticism repeatedly aimed at NCCAM seems justified, as far as their RCTs of chiropractic is concerned. It seems questionable whether such research is worthwhile."
    • Nature News: "still draws fire from traditional scientists", "Many US researchers still say such funding is a waste of time and money."
    • Science News: " is a political creation"; "This kind of science isn't worth any time or money" (quoting Wallace Sampson)
    • Science Policy Forum: " was created by pressure from a few advocates in Congress"; "NCCAM funds proposals of dubious merit; its research agenda is shaped more by politics than by science; and it is structured by its charter in a manner that precludes an independent review of its performance"; "NCCAM is unable to implement a research agenda that addresses legitimate scientific opportunities or health-care needs"
  9. Ockerbloom, John Mark. "Why Pay for What’s Free? Finding Open Access and Public Domain Articles." Everybody's Libraries (23 Oct 2018).
Other helpful resources
Misplaced Pages biomedical editing
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It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
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WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine
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WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Pharmacology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pharmacology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PharmacologyWikipedia:WikiProject PharmacologyTemplate:WikiProject Pharmacologypharmacology
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WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Alternative medicineWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicineTemplate:WikiProject Alternative medicineAlternative medicine

Media mentionThis page has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:
  • Noam Cohem (March 15, 2020). "How Misplaced Pages Prevents the Spread of Coronavirus Misinformation". Wired. Misplaced Pages shows, however, that extreme circumstances, especially when related to public health, require different, more stringent rules, not better application of existing rules. The stakes are simply too high.
  • Jackson Ryan (June 24, 2021). "Inside Misplaced Pages's endless war over the coronavirus lab leak theory". CNET. The exclusion of the lab leak theory from Misplaced Pages predominantly rests on established guidelines. Chief among them is one known by editors as WP:MEDRS. It refers to the referencing of "biomedical" information on Misplaced Pages, stating sources must be "reliable, third-party published secondary sources, and must accurately reflect current knowledge." It's a guideline that has launched a thousand Talk page disputes.

A small 'licence' query...

...regarding NICE CKS sourcing in this edit (self-reverted as a scruple), which I feel helps provide key introductory information to ] succinctly and really quite conveniently. CKS was briefly discussed here back in 2014 (I was actually the OP then), and I believe the consensus then that it was permissable to use CKS, even though it is not accessible outside the UK. Now, CKS comes with a scary licence agreement, which states :

2.1 You agree that you are only allowed to Use the Topics if you:

(i) Are an individual; in which case: You are allowed to Use for personal and/or your own educational purposes only and not on behalf of or for the benefit of any company, organisation, or business.
...
2.2 If you are not an individual or a clinician (as defined above), you must contact Us for a commercial licence. If you do not, you understand that by Using the Topics you or your organisation will be infringing Our intellectual property rights.
2.3 For the avoidance of doubt, the following, without limitation, are not permitted to Use the Topics (but may do so by contacting Agilio and entering into a commercial licence):
...

(iii) companies, businesses, and any other private enterprises that are not part of the National Health Service.

I'm not sure whether Misplaced Pages is affected by this. Hence the query. 86.174.206.40 (talk) 14:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I doubt that it's a problem. See 3.1(v): "You cannot Use the Topics to create other material, such as books, articles, or guidance. This does not prevent you from referring to appropriately referenced extracts of Topics." Citing it as a source behind text that you have written in your own words presumably counts as "appropriate referencing". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for that WAID. It would seem crazy to provide reliable medical information that can't even be cited, but hey what do I know? I'll restore the edit given that this is a really useful medrs, imo (I've sometimes found it tricky to find a good medrs that summarizes key basic info in a readily citable form). 86.174.206.40 (talk) 18:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Notice about possibly relevant discussion

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#WP:MEDRS_&_a_quote_from_a_dermatologist

TLDR; can a dermatologists' testimony about the spread of scabies in an Israeli prison, and the need for hygiene be used in Torture_during_the_Israel–Hamas_war#Other_reports, or would that violate WP:MEDRS. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion on Electronic Harassment

Hello, there is a discussion on Talk:Electronic harassment about whether declaring a group 'delusional' falls under WP:MEDRS at Talk:Electronic harassment#Introduction Violates WP:MEDRS and WP:NPOV. This could use some editors more familiar with Misplaced Pages's standards. Amranu (talk) 13:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at RSN that may include a medical claim

Help with WP:RSN#Vice Media (again) would be appreciated. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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