Revision as of 09:06, 6 September 2014 view sourceNorthBySouthBaranof (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers33,477 edits →Zoe Quinn incident: Redact per BLP.← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 05:19, 26 December 2024 view source Sangdeboeuf (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users53,283 edits →top: External link(s) |
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This article will get afd, most of what has been posted are not reliably sourced, you have no lead, and it just overall, poorly written. ] (]) 03:07, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:Improve the article! It is certainly notable at this point, and I think getting more help on it would help. ] (]) 06:20, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::I concur. You have to start somewhere, and given the messy nature of the situation I couldn't write an initial entry which was full-grown as Athena was from the brow of Zeus, so have at it! ] (]) 07:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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{{Talk header}} |
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::The IP was referring to the previous version of this article, which was nothing but a list of links to Twitter posts and was definitely not a Misplaced Pages article. ] (]) 07:03, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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{{Contentious topics/page restriction talk notice|gg|1RR=yes|protection=ecp}} |
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:::Point taken. Lots of activity, suddenly. ] (]) 07:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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{{trolling}} |
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{{tmbox|text=The purpose of this talk page is to host ongoing discussion among interested editors regarding the ] article itself. '''This page is not for discussing this talk page itself or any other meta-discussion; use the '']'' subpage for that.''' The subpage's creation is an Arbitration Enforcement action. Info on changes to the reference list are here: '']''.}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|collapsed=yes|class=C|1= |
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{{WikiProject Video games|class=c |importance=Mid}} |
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{{Old moves |
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| from1 = Gamergate controversy |
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| destination1 = Gamergate movement |
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| result1 = Not moved |
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| link1 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 28#Requested move 14 February 2015 |
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| date1 = February 14, 2014 |
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| from2 = Gamergate controversy |
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==RSs== |
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I think that this is probably notable - there are hundreds of articles about this now. Some suggestions: |
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| link2 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 13#Requested moves |
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| date2 = November 12, 2014 |
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| from3 = Gamergate controversy |
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http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/09/gamergate_explodes_gaming_journalists_declare_the_gamers_are_over_but_they.html |
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| destination3 = Gamergate harassment campaign |
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| link3 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 37#Requested move 15 May 2015 |
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| date3 = May 15, 2015 |
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http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/03/gamergate-corruption-games-anita-sarkeesian-zoe-quinn |
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| destination4 = Gamergate |
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| result4 = Withdrawn |
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| link4 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 45#Requested move 30 August 2015 |
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| date4 = August 30, 2015 |
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http://www.modvive.com/2014/09/01/gamergate-accountability-problem-sexism-one/ |
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| destination5 = Gamergate (sexist terrorism) |
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:Not a reliable source. No masthead, no visible editorial structure, appears to be open to just about anyone, no widely-known reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. ] (]) 08:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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| result5 = POINT close |
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| link5 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 46#Requested move 19 September 2015 |
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| date5 = September 19, 2015 |
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/01/the-gamer-is-dead-long-live-the-gamer/ |
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| destination6 = Gamergate (harassment campaign) |
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| result6 = Moved |
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| link6 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 60#Requested move 12 August 2021 |
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| date6 = August 12, 2021 |
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| from7 = Gamergate (harassment campaign) |
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http://www.gamespresso.com/the-reason-gamers-are-angry-with-zoe-quinn/26127 |
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:Not a reliable source for derogatory claims about living people; it's been around for less than one year, it has no established reputation for reliability and fact-checking and it offers no evidence that it conducted any independent reporting into the otherwise-anonymous claims about Quinn and her relationships. ] (]) 09:01, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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| link7 = Talk:Gamergate (ant)/Archive 3#Requested move 20 August 2021 |
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| date7 = August 20, 2021 |
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}} |
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{{Old MfD |date=23 June 2017 |result='''redirect''' |page=Draft:Gamergate controversy |altpage=Draft:Gamergate controversy}} |
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{{Old AfD multi| date = 6 September 2014 | result = '''Keep''' | page = GamerGate | date2 = 23 November 2015 | result2 = '''speedy keep''' | page2 = Gamergate controversy}} |
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{{Copied |
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Really, I'd suggest finding a whole bunch of sources and going through and looking for the best, least biased sources, as well as trying to find recurring themes. A lot of sources on this suffer from extreme bias, and while it is possible to use biased sources, if we can find unbiased sources, that would be ''preferable'', as they're much easier to use and more reliable. ] (]) 06:19, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:It's a protean story with a lot of facets. (Narratives about narratives, anyone?) I only put it up because it blew up on my Twitter feed, knowing full well that it'll take time to gel. Quite frankly, I hadn't expected coverage in TIME magazine. ] (]) 07:07, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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{{Press |
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|author=Alex Hern|url=https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/23/wikipedia-bans-editors-from-gender-related-articles-amid-gamergate-controversy|title=Misplaced Pages votes to ban some editors from gender-related articles|date=January 23, 2015|org=] |
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|author2=]|url2=https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/14/if-we-took-gamergate-harassment-seriously-pizzagate-might-never-have-happened/|date2=December 14, 2016|title2=If we took 'Gamergate' harassment seriously, 'Pizzagate' might never have happened|org2=] |
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|author3=]|url3=http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/02/wikipedia_gamergate_scandal_how_a_bad_source_made_wikipedia_wrong_about.html|title3=The Misplaced Pages Ouroboros|org3=Slate|date3=February 5, 2015 |
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|author4=Dabitch|url4=http://adland.tv/adnews/wikipedia-perpetual-native-ad-machine/255028968|title4=Misplaced Pages: the perpetual motion native ad machine|org4=Adland|date4=February 5, 2015 |
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|author5=Lauren C. Williams|url5=https://thinkprogress.org/wikipedia-wants-to-ban-feminists-from-editing-gamergate-articles-updated-6624e8987048#.6imluhnjw|org5=ThinkProgress|title5=Misplaced Pages Wants To Ban Feminists From Editing GamerGate Articles (Updated)|date5=January 26, 2015|archiveurl5=https://web.archive.org/web/20180929000042/https://thinkprogress.org/wikipedia-wants-to-ban-feminists-from-editing-gamergate-articles-updated-6624e8987048/|archivedate5=September 29, 2018 |
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|author6=Daniel Greenfield|url6=http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/263914/gawker-editor-gamergate-was-our-most-effective-daniel-greenfield|title6=Gawker Editor: Gamergate Was Our Most Effective Enemy|org6=]|date6=August 20, 2016|archiveurl6=https://archive.ph/1GbLp|archivedate6=21 August 2016 |
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|author7 = Sam Wineburg and Nadav Ziv |
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::Yeah, I had been involved with the ] article but hadn't been convinced that it was going to be notable as a thing on its own, but then it blew up and got hundreds of sources and now is far more notable than she is (and TBH I'm not sure if she's really notable, but that's another subject). I probably should have made this a few days ago after the explosion, but was trying to make sure it would stick, but with another 30-odd articles showing up on it, I think we're past the point where we are predicting notability. ] (]) 07:14, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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|title7 = Go ahead and use Misplaced Pages for research |
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| {{cite book |last=Beyer |first=Jessica L. |chapter=Trolls and Hacktivists: Political Mobilization from Online Communities |date=2021 |title=The Oxford Handbook of Digital Media Sociology |editor-last=Rohlinger |editor-first=Deana A. |publisher=Oxford University Press |doi=10.1093/oxfordhb/9780197510636.013.47 |isbn=978-0-19-751063-6 |editor2-last=Sobieraj |editor2-first=Sarah |pages=417–442}} |
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| {{cite book |last=Condis |first=Megan |title=Gaming Masculinity: Trolls, Fake Geeks, and the Gendered Battle for Online Culture |year=2018 |publisher=University of Iowa Press |isbn=978-1-6093-8566-8 |pages=95–106 |jstor=j.ctv3dnq9f.12 |chapter=From #GamerGate to Donald Trump: Toxic Masculinity and the Politics of the Alt-Right}} |
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| {{cite news |last=Dewey |first=Caitlin |author-link=Caitlin Dewey |date=2016-02-17 |title=In the battle of Internet mobs vs. the law, the Internet mobs have won |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/02/17/in-the-battle-of-internet-mobs-vs-the-law-the-internet-mobs-have-won/ |url-status=live |work=] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230710005803/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/02/17/in-the-battle-of-internet-mobs-vs-the-law-the-internet-mobs-have-won/ |archive-date=2023-07-10 |access-date=2024-01-22 |url-access=limited}} |
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| {{cite book |last1=Donovan |first1=Joan |last2=Dreyfuss |first2=Emily |last3=Friedberg |first3=Brian |title=Meme Wars: The Untold Story of the Online Battles Upending Democracy in America |date=2022 |publisher=Bloomsbury Publishing |location=New York |isbn=978-1-63-557864-5}} |
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| {{cite book |last=Jones |first=Bethan |editor=Booth, Paul |title=A Companion to Media Fandom and Fan Studies |year=2018 |publisher=John Wiley & Sons |location=Hoboken, N.J. |isbn=978-1-1192-3716-7 |pages=415–429 |doi=10.1002/9781119237211.ch26 |chapter=#AskELJames, Ghostbusters, and #Gamergate: Digital Dislike and Damage Control |chapter-url=https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/epdf/10.1002/9781119237211.ch26 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}} |
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| {{cite book |last=Kidd |first=Dustin |title=Social Media Freaks: Digital Identity in the Network Society |date=2018 |publisher=Routledge |location=New York |isbn=978-0-4299-7691-9 |chapter=GamerGate: Gender Perspectives on Social Media}} |
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| {{cite book |last1=O'Donnell |first1=Jessica |title=Gamergate and Anti-Feminism in the Digital Age |date=2022 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-031-14057-0 |pages=179–222 |doi=10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_6 |chapter=Changes Following Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_6 |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}} |
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| {{cite book |last1=O'Donnell |first1=Jessica |title=Gamergate and Anti-Feminism in the Digital Age |date=2022 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-031-14057-0 |pages=63–107 |doi=10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_3 |chapter=Gamers and Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_3 |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}} |
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| {{cite book |editor1-last=Reyman |editor1-first=Jessica |editor2-last=Sparby |editor2-first=Erika |title=Digital Ethics: Rhetoric and Responsibility in Online Aggression |date=2020 |publisher=Routledge |location=New York |series=Routledge Studies in Rhetoric and Communication |isbn=978-0-367-21795-2 |edition=1st |doi=10.4324/9780429266140 |s2cid=189982687}} |
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| {{cite book |last=Ruffino |first=Paolo |title=Future Gaming: Creative Interventions in Video Game Culture |date=2018 |publisher=Goldsmiths Press |location=London |isbn=978-1-90-689755-0 |pages=104–119 |chapter=GamerGate: Becoming Parasites to Gaming}} |
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| {{cite journal |last=Salter |first=Michael |title=From Geek Masculinity to Gamergate: The Technological Rationality of Online Abuse |journal=Crime, Media, Culture |date=2018 |volume=14 |issue=2 |pages=247–264 |doi=10.1177/1741659017690893 |issn=1741-6604}} |
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| {{cite book |last1=Veale |first1=Kevin |title=Gaming the Dynamics of Online Harassment |date=2020 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-030-60410-3 |pages=1–33 |doi=10.1007/978-3-030-60410-3_1 |chapter=Introduction: The Breadth of Harassment Culture and Contextualising Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-030-60410-3_1 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}} |
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| {{cite book |last1=Wilson |first1=Katie |editor1-last=Booth |editor1-first=Paul |title=A Companion to Media Fandom and Fan Studies |date=2018 |publisher=John Wiley & Sons |location=Hoboken, N.J. |isbn=978-1-119-23721-1 |pages=431–445 |doi=10.1002/9781119237211.ch27 |chapter=Red Pillers, Sad Puppies, and Gamergaters |chapter-url=https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/epdf/10.1002/9781119237211.ch27 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}} |
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| {{cite book |last1=Zuckerberg |first1=Donna |title=Not All Dead White Men: Classics and Misogyny in the Digital Age |date=2018 |publisher=Harvard University Press |isbn=978-0-6749-8982-5 |pages=}} |
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==Sanctions enforcement== |
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::: I concur. Interesting, too, that the article on her is admin protected, and not the one on Sarkeesian, who had received death threats. Interesting differential. ] (]) 07:22, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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<!-- START PIN -->{{Pin message|}}<!-- ] 12:00, 26 April 2035 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1840363256}}<!-- END PIN --> |
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All articles related to the ]. |
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Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: ]. |
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::::Basically, there were 32 revdels within a very short period of time, and even more edit and reversion wars. The present state of the article is quite poor, and there are some very angry people on the talk page. It wasn't protected for any weird reasons; it was protected because people were getting in fights. The talk page probably doesn't need to be protected, though. ] (]) 07:31, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) ] (UTC)</small> |
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==What needs to be in this article== |
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We need to work on getting this article into shape. As noted, this is a very complicated issue, and there are a LOT of biased sources (as well as a lot of vitriol) being thrown around over this topic. |
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== They/them pronoun confusion == |
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===Background=== |
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Zoe Quinn's past incidence of harassment and press, and questions of the legitimacy of the claims and the anger about her which existed prior to this whole thing. |
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As someone who is not familiar with gamergate, there are some parts of the article which are confusing because of how Quinn's they/them pronouns are used. |
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I'm not super familiar with Sarkeesian's past; I know some folks got very upset about her in the past, but I'm not sure how directly related it is. Possibly worth mentioning if there are RSs on it. |
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The lead currently contains the following sentence: |
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Gamergate began with an August 2014 blog entry called "The Zoe Post" by Quinn's ex-boyfriend, which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of <u>their</u> sexual relationship with a games journalist. |
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Past of anger over the perception of ] issues being pushed by some journalists and backlash against that. |
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The sentence gives the impression that it's about a sexual relationship between Quinn, Quinn's ex-boyfried, and a games journalist. I know it's because Quinn's pronouns are they/them but their pronouns haven't been mentioned yet in the text. |
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Past of industry corruption. |
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Then their pronouns are mentioned in a footnote, but it's still pretty confusing: |
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Past of harassment of women in gaming. |
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Called "The Zoe Post", it was a lengthy, detailed account of <u>their</u> relationship and breakup that included copies of personal chat logs, emails, and text messages. The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for <u>their</u> sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson, a reporter for the gaming websites Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun. |
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===Zoe Quinn incident=== |
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This was sparked by Zoe Quinn's ex's blog post. We need to note what is salient here and not go into the lurid details excessively. Seeing as this is what set the whole thing off, it needs to be noted, and it is impossible to cover this incident without noting what set it off. ''Please'' stop trying to delete this; as has been noted, something in multiple RSs is not a violation of BLP, and given that this whole thing is notable, we can't ''not'' include this information. We report on scandals involving living people all the time. The third guy mentioned in the ex's blog post does not seem to be a major thing in the RSs (I haven't found any mention of him), so we shouldn't mention him. |
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:Some folks have gotten upset over this and don't understand BLPName. To be clear: BLP DOES NOT PROHIBIT THE USE OF PEOPLE'S NAMES, and we don't need to delete them from the talk pages if we're dealing with sourced material; whether or not they need to be mentioned in the article should be decided on, and trying to redact all mentions of their names from this page is unhelpful. Please see ]. However, the names of insignificant individuals may or may not be specifically noted. Grayson and Zoe Quinn's names appear in a large number of articles; Quinn's name 100% needs to be mentioned. Grayson's name probably needs to be mentioned, as he is referenced by a large number of sources. The owner of Loveshack Entertainment has been mentioned in fewer sources, and thus maybe his name doesn't need to be mentioned; he should be mentioned, but he may or may not need to be named. Her ex's name has been mentioned in some sources as well; not sure if he needs to be mentioned or not by name. If you see someone's name mentioned in a manner which is inappropriate, you should not remove everything, just it; mass reversion is not helpful for moving the article forward. ] (]) 09:05, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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I assume the first "their" is about the relationship between Quinn and Quinn's ex-boyfriend, and that the second "their" is about a relationship between Quinn and Grayson, but the second could still be interpreted as "Quinn's and Quinn's ex-boyfriends" sexual relationship. |
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Are Zoe Quinn's other, non-romantic associates worth noting here? Phil Fish seems like the most noteworthy, but might be better in reactions? Who else has been attacked in conjunction with the corruption issue? |
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I think these sentences should be written more clearly (by someone who knows what the sentences are supposed to mean). ] (]) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC) |
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===Reaction=== |
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:I agree. I've tried some very minor rewording - replaced the first "their" with "Quinn's" to read "which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of Quinn's sexual relationship with a games journalist", and removed the "their" from the second to give "The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for a sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson". Hopefully that reads better. - ] (]) 09:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC) |
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Harassment of Zoe Quinn. |
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:By ''far'' the most notable part of this, as discussed in a wide variety of reliable sources. ] (]) 08:16, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::Arguably was at one point, during the early ] when it was mostly ] types accusing gamers of being bigots, though they weren't mostly very RSs. At this point, GamerGate has more results than Zoe Quinn's harassment on Google News. It is definitely important to note, though the actual reason for it was, as noted, accusations of corruption, though the point of view that it was misogyny obviously needs to be mentioned. ] (]) 08:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Ah yes, "media blackout" and "social justice types." Quite. |
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:::And no, the harassment of Zoe Quinn and others continues to be the main thread of the reliable sources discussing the issue. etc. ] (]) 08:45, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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Harassment of several of Zoe Quinn's detractors (] most notably). |
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== Wired article concerning Gamergate and Kamala Harris == |
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Phil Fish's attacks, harassment, and claims of quitting forever again. |
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A discussion in ''Wired'' of the playbook that arose during the Gamergate campaign and how it has been used in other contexts '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 00:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC) |
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Censorship on various sites, which lead to further anger by gamers. |
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== Transphobia and attempted outting of Brianna Wu == |
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Media blackout in mainstream gaming press, which lead to allegations of corruption and coverup. |
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Should it be added that several proponents of Gamergate attempted to out then stealth trans woman ] as part of the harassment campaign? ] (]) 07:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC) |
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Kotaku's response re: Grayson. |
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== Requested move 5 November 2024 == |
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Ethics policy changes at gaming websites which resulted from this. |
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<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, inherit); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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] writer who ended up quitting after being accused of corruption after writing a piece supporting Quinn while supporting her financially on Patreon? |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' |
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:Accused of corruption ''by whom'' and to whom do you attribute the allegation that she quit after this, as opposed to quit due to public harassment as reported in ? ] (]) 08:14, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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::It was mentioned on Al-Jezeera, among other places - noted this. It was, as per usual, random people on the internet. And the harassment was ''precisely'' due to the accusations of corruption, as she herself noted. Indeed, that's what sparked most of the harassment, and indeed, a great deal of it wasn't really harassment so much as accusations of corruption. ] even edited her article because of the lack of initial disclosure; apparently she originally wanted to disclose it, but apparently The Guardian's editors thought "hey, its about someone getting harassed on the internet, why bother?" ] (]) 08:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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The result of the move request was: '''Not moved'''. There is a consensus here that the harassment campaign is not a primary topic — ] (]) 20:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC) |
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] looking into online harassment of game devs thing? It happened at the same time, but is reportedly coincidental and unrelated, because it was already being discussed. Still potentially noteworthy? |
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---- |
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] → {{no redirect|Gamergate}} – In ] (12 November 2014), there was no consensus to move to Gamergate due to recentism and whether it is the primary topic. In ], there was consensus to move the ant species to use its qualifier. It is now clear that there is no recentism issue, and the hatnote indicates this is the primary topic "GamerGate redirects here. For other uses, see Gamergate (disambiguation)." ] (]) 22:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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===Social justice/misogyny controversy=== |
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There were a bunch of articles about this, but a lot of them are probably not RSs or at least are far from ideal RSs; many of them are terribly biased and it was, fundamentally, a fight on the internet. Probably notable, as it is touched on in some RSs, but I'm not sure how much attention to pay to this issue. Possibly should be integrated with the conflicts between gamers and the press? |
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*A nitpick on the "primary topic" bit: ]—that is, ] with 2 capital Gs—redirects here, as nobody writes "GamerGate" when discussing the ant. It doesn't mean that this article is the primary topic. ] is a disambiguation page. Also, there have been 6 move discussions since that 2014 discussion, so I wouldn't put too much stock into just "recentism". They're all under the "Other talk page banners" banner at the top of the page. ] (]) 23:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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===Conflicts between gamers and the press=== |
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*'''Support''' I really don’t think anyone outside of biologists even knows “gamergate” is a type of ant. This isn’t like the infamous ] vs. ] debacle— one’s an obscure technical term and the other is an extremely infamous harassment campaign. ] (]) 00:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC) |
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This got a lot of attention, as the gamers basically rebelled against the gaming press while the gaming press insulted them. Honestly this was probably what brought the attention of the mainstream media, so we need to talk about this, but I'm not sure what should be said exactly. |
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*:agreed! ] (]) 20:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom.--] (]) 19:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC) |
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===Anita Sarkeesian=== |
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*'''Oppose''' as there is still data coming out about both topics and "obscure" is only of value as a term when used to demote the usage of something outside ones scope of knowledge. Gamergate as a caste of ant social structure is not going to go away at any point. The harassment campaign is over, and as the legacy section shows, each years coverage has moved more and more to basic level "compared to" analogies and a full lack of in-depth conversation. Recentism seems to clearly be applicable here.--]] ] 23:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Anita was both connected to all this and not, and I'm not sure how to properly integrate her criticism and harassment in with the rest of this. Honestly I'm not super sure what is going on with her thing; I mostly haven't been paying attention to it. |
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*'''Oppose''' per Woodroar and Kevmin. This gets rehashed frequently, but there's still no policy-based reason to move the article from its current name. We should retain the disambiguation page at ] and keep this page as-is. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 13:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. I suppose I'll add an official !vote here. The harassment campaign article currently gets more views than the ant article. And given the campaign's influence on the alt-right and later harassment and disinformation campaigns, I don't see that interest disappearing tomorrow or next year—but I also can't see it staying relevant forever. Every retrospective I've read puts it firmly in the past, not an ongoing event. The ant was named first and gamergate ants will almost certainly outlast the relevance of the harassment campaign, Misplaced Pages itself, and probably humans. I don't think it's a burden for searchers to land at a disambiguation page where they can see options for the harassment campaign and ant, or for the ''Adventure Time'' character or note about ]. I mean, to be fair, the camelcase ] redirect should probably go to the disambiguation page as well, just to help dispel that confusion. ] (]) 17:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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===What else?=== |
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*:This won't stay relevant forever, but as long as culture war isn't over, this would be the primary topic in most people's head, and a contentious topic at that. I am hesitant to do a ] here, but I am quite sure culture war will continue for at least 20 years per ], it will be very useful to keep this as primary topic during that time. ] (]) 18:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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What else about this whole thing is notable and noteworthy and has some good RSs for it? What am I missing? ] (]) 07:45, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate. ]] 22:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:I have redacted unsupported speculative claims about a living person which are inappropriate per ]. This is a reminder that the policy applies everywhere on the encyclopedia and just because this is a different article than ] does not mean different rules apply. ] (]) 08:04, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*:{{tq|nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate}}{{cn}} This seems to sit squarely in statements without data territory. You're saying nobody at all searches for the ant caste by its ''official name''??--]] ] 23:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:], the material you are attempting to reinsert has been revdel'd multiple times by administrators from this article and ] on the grounds that it violates the Biographies of Living Persons policy. I suggest to you that if you persist in reinserting it, you may well end up blocked for violating that policy. |
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*::Yeah, Not sure what sort of demographic group is searching for ant castes named Gamergate... unless they knew it was an ant and put (ant) at the end. ]] 05:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:We need impeccable reliable sources for derogatory claims about living people, and the ones you have provided are not them, not remotely. Once again, this article is not going to be a place to repeat scurrilous rumormongering and veiled ] of living people. ] (]) 08:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*:::The problem here is that "knowing to put (ant) at the end" is learned behavior for searching and editing on wikipedia, not innate search behavior taught in school or higher education. You are creating a ] that the ant is NOT a search topic ever and using that to endorse your position.--]] ] 19:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Gamergate was a decade ago already, periodically re-upped or mentioned in passing as a historic footnote to the alt-right. The ant is eternal. The "for other uses" at the top likely needs refining is all I would say. And, unrelated to this specifically, the article long ago needed a rewrite. ] (]) 02:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' “the ant will always be relevant” is technically true, but dismissing Gamergate the harassment campaign as just something that will fade away in ''x'' years is ]. If we took this ''ad absurdum'', you could say the primary topic of ''Mario'' being ] is recentism, because ] has been around much longer, but that is obviously silly because there’s only one “Mario” most people are thinking of when they type it in. Similarly, who is seriously searching for information on a type of ant when they look up “gamergate”? None of the first-page hits on DuckDuckGo are for the ant besides its Misplaced Pages page. ] (]) 14:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*:It already has faded away and is referenced in the past tense. It was a thing that happened briefly a decade ago. The people searching Gamergate for ants (or writing thesis, or producing research content, or studying entomology) are the same ones doing it before 2016, and will continue to do so forever because it is, like, science. This does not mean Gamergate ceases to be mentioned, or doesn't generate hits or search results - and why prior consensus agreed on the disambiguation. This is also why the sentence {{tq|In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage (Apple Inc.) and one of primary long-term significance (Apple). In such a case, consensus may be useful in determining which topic, if any, is the primary topic}} exists. Mario meanwhile is covered later by the statement: {{tq|Non-encyclopedic uses of a term are irrelevant for primary topic purposes; for example, ] is about a Korean pop band, despite the existence of the common English word "twice", as the latter is not a topic suitable for an encyclopedic article}} of WP:PRIMARY. ] (]) 21:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*::“Happened in the past” is not a measure of relevance any more than happening in the present is. Is ] irrelevant because it only lasted a few days? Is Randy In Boise’s Junkyard Band relevant because they’re currently touring garages in the vicinity of ]? ] (]) 12:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::It very specifically is a measure of long term relevance as referenced in the example of Apple Inc vs Apple. The significance of coverage of the event confers notability for the creation of an article. After the event, the significance is maintained through repeated coverage. Woodstock (as the given example) has persistent, repeated, significant and notable coverage and new significant material produced about it annually (along with insignificant and non-notable coverage where it is merely referenced). Gamergate as a harassment campaign isn't. Gamergate occasionally comes up in single instances of research, commonly referenced as a precursor to some element of the Alt Right - but the topic itself isn't discussed, rather it is used as a bellwether type event. There are typically articles written from time to time with titles such as "What we didn't learn from Gamergate" etc but there is little meaningful content (either about the victims, the actions, and certainly not the perpetrators beyond the speculative attribution of the thing to a group of people who may or may not be now a part of another thing). In contrast (per example previous) Apple Inc is likely the most searched topic, the most routinely covered and so on - but an Apple is an ], Valve is a ], just as a Gamergate should be a Gamergate. ] (]) 01:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::Except nobody knows what a gamergate ''is'' besides an entomologist. It isn’t even considered a valid word by my spellcheck, i.e, it’s an obscure technical term almost nobody uses. ] (]) 00:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::Arguments from incredulity do not really give any traction to your point though (you not looking for the Caste =/= NO ONE searches for the caste). Policy is where changes come from, and as it stands now, there is a continually decreasing amount of novel coverage for the harassment campaign, while the ant caste isn't going to go anywhere an has the lasting persistence of science topics.--]] ] 18:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::Bkonrad’s argument directly below is concrete evidence that almost nobody is looking for the ant. The opposes are many, but they’re all based on four main arguments: “]” “]” “]” and “]”; these are all vague and subjective in their importance. ] (]) 07:34, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::::Bkonrad’s argument missed all the points the {{yo|KoA}} provided regarding the nuance of flash in the pan events vrs established topics with lasting use in a field. A situation you also are ignoring,--]] ] 19:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::::Yes, there is a small population of individuals in a narrow field of study who might use the term with some frequency (some of whom are apparently thin-skinned enough to get bent out of shape that more people are interested in other things). This niche technical term in is dwarfed by the overwhelming disparity in what readers of this encyclopedia are looking for. Any comparison with Apple (fruit) vs Apple (company) is without merit. Nearly every speaker of English knows what the Apple fruit is, even if the company generates more traffic. For gamergate, it is likely less than .01% of English speakers who know about (or might ever think to look up) the ant-related topic. ] ≠ ] 20:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Support'''. This is a bit ridiculous. The and show pretty overwhelmingly what readers are looking for in this case and it is not ants. The ants can be added specifically to the hatnote in addition to the dab so readers looking for the ant are still only one click aways just as they would be with the current setup. ] ≠ ] 17:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom. ] (]) 00:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''', if we can make a compromise, why not rename the ant article to Gamergate (insect/or ant)? ] (]) 19:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment.''' Nothing that prior to this comment, the other affected page on the ants was never notified. That's an inappropriate ] in terms of notification when comments are being made about the ants while leaving out the audience that would be most knowledgeable about it when discussing ] and focusing instead on only this page's audience instead. I didn't notice this was going on until I stopped over at the disambig page's talk today. I'll put notifications up shortly. ] (]) 19:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Idk what that means ] (]) 21:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*::@]; Primary topic grabs typically require multi-page moves, but if they don't, it is still courtesy to notify the other pages listed on the disambiguation. ] (]) 07:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. While this topic certainly still gets mentioned, coverage has declined sharply; it seems silly to suggest that it would be more appropriate as the main article than it was a decade ago when it was in full-swing. --] (]) 20:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose.''' per ]. It's one thing to have the current disambiguation setup, but to call the harassment topic the primary topic would be a huge pardigm shift from previous discussions that isn't reflected here. I'll get into the substance below, but this does feel like a bludgeon for editors at the ant page not wanting to have to deal with a controversial topic. Over the last 10 years, this page has had a lot of controversy over its title and ambiguity on what to call itself to the point moratoriums have been put in place on RMs partially to give the ant topic a break. For the harassment topic to suddenly be the primary, there would have to be something huge that changed that wasn't covered ad nauseum in all the past RMs. Here's the history I had from the last RM below: |
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*#https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1041117019#Requested_move_20_August_2021 |
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*#https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1039653835#Requested_move_12_August_2021 |
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*#] |
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*#] |
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*#] (moratorium put in place on requested moves) |
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*#] |
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*#] |
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*#] |
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*#] |
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*#] |
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*:This initial proposal leaves out a lot of what actually happened in the , but the core issue here is that comments in support aren't really addressing the core issues found in the last move. It wasn't primarily a matter of recentism, but instead rangling with two aspects of PTOPIC: |
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*#{{tq|A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.}} |
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*#{{tq|A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.}} |
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*:For the time being, the harassment campaign has higher views in terms of PT1, but all of our guidance related to views, search hits, etc. have strong cautions against carte blanche use of those stats, especially in terms of ] and our internet audience where internet topics like the harassment topic are going to be more popular. For PT2 though, that's where the ant has a pretty clear case. Previous closes were clear too {{tq|it is apparent that a clear majority of the community would prefer a primary topic in favour of long-term significance}}. Personally I think that puts the ant squarely as the primary topic even when weighing all of that with an even hand. With that said, the harassment campaign over 10 years never had primary topic status, though in the 2021 RM, it was just split down the middle to have a disambiguation page instead of having the ant as the primary topic. That at least did stop the RMs for a time, but I'm not seeing anything here that would suggest that something has majorly changed on that side since 2021. |
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*:The other issue I'm seeing is the naming of the harassment campaign regardless of the ants. All the RMs I mentioned above show the history of how much the topic title has morphed and been contentious. Calling it the harassment campaign parenthetical seemed to finally settle that down, but undoing that is going to increase the ambiguity again. At the end of the day, the last RM at least made it so no one is astonished. You type Gamergate into the search and you're either going to see the two options you want already Gamergate (ant) or Gamergate (harassment campaign). If you click the first result, you get the disambiguation page which guides you even more. Unless there's a major resurgence of Gamergate-related harassment in coming years that truly adds to the event, it's pretty hard for it to leap-frog two levels up to the definitive primary topic. ] (]) 21:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*::I thought I'd revive a bit I wrote at the last RM that actually focuses on the ant side of things. |
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*::A gamergate is a worker ant that is able to reproduce, which the article outlines as unique for most ant species. This currently impacts all individuals of species within at least five ] and 17 ] (as opposed to only a of subset of individuals within the species ] for the harassment event). For the ants (or really any biological trait this fixed in multiple species), there is not a ] this million-year+ old trait will just suddenly disappear and stop affecting all of these species. In fact, that CRYSTAL policy specifically calls out such arguments as a violation: {{tq|Although currently accepted scientific paradigms may later be rejected, and hypotheses previously held to be controversial or incorrect sometimes become accepted by the scientific community, it is not the place of Misplaced Pages to venture such projections.}} When scientists name these traits, they are generally also stable in usage ] is a similar example of these terminology being common in biology. |
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*::Much of this long-term impact is something inherent to ]/biology topics and is why PTOPIC also mentions long-term education aspects being of higher value. On that note, ant gamergates are something that’s likely to come up in biology textbooks when discussing ant colonies since ] animals are often a common example in varying degrees for both kids and college students. It might be a footnote in more basic biology books, but if you get into common intro-level courses at say college, this kind of thing can easily come up in sections dealing with insect diversity. |
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*::While common usage metrics have consistently been an issue for this discussion, looking at scholarly metrics helps. Google Scholar is well known, but generally not that reliable for things like citation metrics, etc. because they include a lot of non-scholarly sources. is usually a more conservative (scientifically, not political) search engine in that regard. Just typing in gamergate gave 189 articles (49 more than in 2021). Of these, 94 mostly focus on the gamergate ant, and 95 involved the harassment topic. That's giving the harassment topic a handicap since that includes mere mentions of Gamergate in that context in the search parameters. That paints a very different picture than those haphazardly using Google searches. At the least academic attention (or use) isn't any higher for the harassment topic, so you'd be hard pressed to call that the primary topic based on search hits. ] is what really anchors discussion here. ] (]) 21:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' per KoA and others, the fact that people are finding the article they are interested in via the disambiguation and also learning about other uses supports retention of status quo. ] (]) 02:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' per ]. While the harassment campaign is more notable in tv news and right-wing twitter/X/parler, it is not necessarily so world-wide, and most importantly, in the scholarly literature. See also: . Misplaced Pages is a scholarship-driven institution, and harassment of video game journalists is not any more important than entomology in the world of scholarship. Keep the disambiguation page, and keep these two pages (ant) and (harassment campaign) disambiguated. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 18:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Pure pageviews and Google hits are not the sole criterion of primary topics. As per others, mentions of the ants and the harassers are pretty balanced in scholarship, if not having the ants come out on top. Can we put a permanent moratorium on move discussions now? The "harassment campaign" part of the title gives ] editors a good reason to keep attempting this move for the foreseeable future. ] (]) 12:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''': Leave how the title is and don't change it, or change it to "GamerGate". I'm only speaking for the title, btw. ] • (]|]). 05:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
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<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> |
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As someone who is not familiar with gamergate, there are some parts of the article which are confusing because of how Quinn's they/them pronouns are used.
The lead currently contains the following sentence:
The sentence gives the impression that it's about a sexual relationship between Quinn, Quinn's ex-boyfried, and a games journalist. I know it's because Quinn's pronouns are they/them but their pronouns haven't been mentioned yet in the text.
Then their pronouns are mentioned in a footnote, but it's still pretty confusing:
I assume the first "their" is about the relationship between Quinn and Quinn's ex-boyfriend, and that the second "their" is about a relationship between Quinn and Grayson, but the second could still be interpreted as "Quinn's and Quinn's ex-boyfriends" sexual relationship.
I think these sentences should be written more clearly (by someone who knows what the sentences are supposed to mean). Paditor (talk) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)