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{{Old moves
{{move|háček}}
| list =
* RM, Caron → Háček, '''No consensus''', 31 March 2006
* RM, Caron → Háček, '''No consensus''', 7 July 2006
* RM, Caron → Háček, '''No consensus''', 11 July 2006
* RM, Caron → Caron (diacritic), '''Not moved''', 19 April 2022, ]
}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|
{{WikiProject Writing systems|importance=low}}
}}
{{archive box|auto=yes}}


=="Faggin Nazzi" writing system?==
*]
Is this for real? Or is it vandalism? See the red link in the "Usage" section of the article.
] 12:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
: It is real. See http://www.friul.net/dizionario_nazzi/norme_ortografiche.php if you read italian. ] 13:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
:And to remove any potential confusion, I wrote a stub about the ] system. ] 13:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


==The sudden changes== == Red letter ==
Is there a good reason why one of the letters is in red? I searched for ''red'' and it doesn't appear. ] (]) 22:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
: Because it doesn't link to an article.--] (]) 23:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


== Capitalization of DŽ in Slovak ==
Ok, I've been bold and closed the poll and archived the talk page. If you would like to complain, go ahead, I'm sorry if this has caused any inconvienience. The poll was overdue to be closed, had no consensus and was all over the place. I'm going to resubmit the move request and keep a close eye. Please bear with me. - ] ] 00:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the statement that with DŽ in Slovak, capitalization of both D and Ž is preferable. Cf. , , it was incorrect. When it's freestanding, yes, but not when it is a part of a word. Can a native speaker give a definitive answer?
] (]) 03:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
:No doubt only the first letter is capitalized. I am not sure how much "dž" is considered a letter of its own in Slovak, though in Czech it is not a part of the alphabet (the only "digraph letter" is CH, representing /x/). Nevertheless, even in CH only the C is capitalized. The same applies for Slovak, and digraphs in other languages such as English. I am a native speaker of Czech, not Slovak. ] (]) 18:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


== Other form ==
Right, the poll is up, I'm not going to vote, as I made this mess and redid the poll, I would encourage all parties to read:
In my large atlas, the form of the caron in ď/ľ/ť is not an apostrophe, but identical to the ] on Vietnamese ơ/ư. Is this common?] (]) 11:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
:I cannot see any difference in the shape of a (serif) apostrophe and a horn. Apart from that, a horn touches its base letter, whereas an apostrophe or a caron does not. — ] ] <span style="font-size:80%">(formerly EJ)</span> 12:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


== Pronunciation of Caron ==
*
Can anyone provide a pronunciation (in English) for caron?
* - ] explains


I could not find the word on a free dictionary site. Or even in the online version of the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary.
Please remain ], and please consider the above sources before airing your opinions. - ] ] 00:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
] (]) 04:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
: As it's spelled, I'd assume. As Care + on, or IPA kɛɹɑn in American English or kɛəɒn in British English (much more speculative, since that's not my dialect.)--] (]) 00:14, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
:: kærən in British English. ] (]) 00:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


== Xi ==
:A note to newcomers, if you have questions, please read the ] first. - ] ] 00:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Xi (Ѯ, ѯ) is a letter of the early Cyrillic alphabet. It have a caron.--] (]) 22:42, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


== big character missing from grey box ==
Further note, as with the reminder to remain ] above, I would request that all participants refrain from making disparaging remarks about the users and inventors of the term 'caron'. Labelling them "computer geeks" is out of line, and I would strongly encourage the closing admin to disregard votes from incivil users. Lets keep this nice and friendly. - ] ] 01:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I first thought it could not be produced by its own, but noticed that the "Diacritics" list below the grey box has it. Is it only forgotten to put there, or is there some other reason? ] (]) 10:52, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
:It ''is'' there. This is likely a problem of your browser. It might help to put a space or something before the character, but I can’t test it as I do not suffer from the original problem.—]&nbsp;] 11:10, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
::Now I tested it with IE7, and it shows okay. It seems not to work in FF at all, I just tried an older version, the earlier time I used a new version of FF. ] (]) 23:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
::Sorry, just noticed it wasn't an old version of Firefox. I mislooked 22.0 for 2.20... ] (]) 22:19, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


So, it seems to work in IE & FF 23, and not in FF 22 and Google Chrome. ] (]) 21:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
: It could be interpreted as impolite, but I think whoever wrote that simply intended to convey the fact that the name was recently coined as jargon by people in a particular technical field (computers), who were not experts in the subject in question (linguistics and typography). ''—]&nbsp;]&nbsp;<small>2006-07-07&nbsp;01:43&nbsp;Z</small>''


Currently works in Chrome. ] (]) 05:19, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
:: It may have been so ''intended'', but was incorrect in that assertion. The source quoted indicates it was coined by experts in pre-computer typesetting, so... ], remain ], but ] (why isn't that phrase in Misplaced Pages? Grumble.) &mdash; ] | ] 14:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


== Use of Ǧ and Ǩ in Skolt Sami ==
:::I think it is somewhere :) Or maybe it is implied :) - ] ] 15:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no source for why the use of the characters are used inconsistently. I also doubt if it's true. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:28, 30 March 2016 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:You doubt if ''what'' is true? Out article on ] is quite clear on that ‹č ǯ š ž ǩ ǧ› are existing graphemes and on their phoneme values. --] • ] 08:14, 31 March 2016 (UTC)


== Hacek versus caron ==
::::It's here - ] +] <sup>(])</sup> 04:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
is highly biased. Both "caron" and "hacek" are understood by certain groups of English speakers to mean this symbol, so neither is inaccurate. References are not for editorializing; I personally think the problems with "wedge" should be clear to the English-speaking reader.


"Its earliest known use was in the ] Style Manual of 1967, for an unrelated mark with same shape." is false. You can check the source , and given that it comes after acute, grave, tilde, circumflex, macron, breve, diaeresis, cedilla, and caret, it seems quite likely to be exactly what is now called "caron". Statements like "Though considered “standardese,”" violate ], the Manual of Style. Particular sources that call it "standardese" can be cited, but it's certainly not universally considered such. (While I'm at the MoS, ] calls for straight quotes, not curly quotes.--] (]) 09:51, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
==Requested move (redux)==
: Yes I understand, I see what I’m facing. I’ll try to sort things out when I’ve got some spare time. — I don’t agree that ASCII quotes should be the house style policy. I don’t see the point in enforcing a particular kind of quotes on users that have got habits with curly quotes. We’ve got trouble in French with the ASCII apostrophe, and you can use either in the text. It doesn’t seem appropriate to even mention the ASCII quotes wrt users currently using ]. -- ] (]) 19:55, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
] → ] – háček is the name found in the linguistic literature, along with the name cited by ], co-author of ''The World's Writing Systems''. - ] ] 00:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
:: The policy on enforcing a certain type of quotes is far beyond this page. That's the rules for the English Misplaced Pages.--] (]) 02:59, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
::: Noted, thanks. Hopefully I’ll remember. Please don’t interpret any malicious intent in making typos of that sort. (BTW in French only the page titles are under ASCII constraint, and even there are many redirections for the sake of curly apostrophe.) -- ] (]) 11:42, 21 January 2019 (UTC)


== page preview not working properly ==
As has been pointed out below, as a note to the closing admin, the previous move poll, which was closed as described above, can be found ]. Apologies for not noting this sooner. - ] ] 15:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
When previewing the page caron from another Misplaced Pages page, it shows an image of a Phoenician sin instead of a caron image. Maybe someone knows how to fix that. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:59, 18 June 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Previews seem to just show the first image that is anywhere on the page, so I guess it works as intended (still confusing). ] (]) 23:26, 12 September 2019 (UTC)


== Names of this diacritic in English ==
''This poll will close at 0:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)''
The lead para begins with this statement:
<blockquote>
A caron (/ˈkærən/), háček or haček (/ˈhɑːtʃɛk/ or /ˈheɪtʃɛk/; plural háčeks or háčky) also known as a hachek, wedge, …
</blockquote>
#Just because the original language of ''háček'' (Czech) uses accents doesn't mean that the loanword in English either does or should. It's more common to drop all accents, even in such common cases as ''cafe'', ''nee'', ''soupcon'' etc. which originally had accents in French (''café'', ''née'', ''soupçon''). What's needed here is some reference to prove that it's known '''in English''' as ''háček'' or ''haček''. Failing that, the text quoted above should show it unaccented: ''hacek'', as many of us will have seen it used in English. (Strictly speaking, even mentioning that usage in English requires at least one reference to comply with Misplaced Pages policy — as do each of the other names given.)
#We also need a reference to show that English actually imports the foreign plural ''háčky'', rather than using the normal rules of pluralisation in English. Again, I don't think it likely we'll find one, but we'll probably find the regular English plural ''haceks'' without looking too hard.
#The {{alink|Names}} section uses the sensible convention of italicising the various names, e.g. ''caron''. I think the lead para should too.
Taking all these points into account, the lead para would begin thus:
<blockquote>
A ''caron'' (/ˈkærən/), ''hacek'' (/ˈhɑːtʃɛk/ or /ˈheɪtʃɛk/; plural haceks) also known as a ''hachek'', ''wedge'', …
</blockquote>
] (]) 11:29, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


== Requested move 19 April 2022 ==
===Survey===
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''Add <nowiki>#'''Support''' or #'''Oppose'''</nowiki> followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ''<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>''
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''


The result of the move request was: not moved ] <small>(])</small> 08:01, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
====Support====
----
# This is the name that appears in English dictionaries. ''—]&nbsp;]&nbsp;<small>2006-07-07&nbsp;00:53&nbsp;Z</small>''
#'''Support''' This is the name for the symbol that I learned in my Linguistics studies 30 years ago, and I never heard of 'caron' until today. -- '''<font color="navy">]</font><sup><font color="green">(])</font></font></sup>''' 01:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Háček is the term that is widely accepted and attested, while caron appears to be a neologism that hasn't yet caught on, particularly in linguistics. --] 01:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''' As noted above, this was the name for the symbol I learned in my Linguistics studies 15 years ago, so the term háček was still in wide use in that field then. I had also never heard of the term ''caron'' until this discussion opened. My support has been increased with the new evidence from the Unicode standard that ''caron'' was in error.] 02:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#:'''Comment''' Once again, the word "'''caron''' is not an "error". It is a word found in international standards and industrial standards prior to the publication of Unicode and ISO/IEC 10646. The Unicode Technical Note calls it an "error" because Ken Whistler doesn't like it because he learned '''háček''' when doing linguistics in California some decades ago. ] 08:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn27/. +] <sup>(])</sup> 04:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''' a move to háček, the normal English term for this mark. --] 04:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''', the correct name. &mdash;]<font color="green">]</font>] ] 09:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''' wikipedia should use dictionary words as names for things whenever possible. Caron is not in any printed dictionary; háček is in many unabridged dictionaries. Additionally, from the unicode link above, it seems as if the consortium made up a word of some unclear French derivation. For those of you who think google is the ultimate authority on things internet, try looking for caron without unicode. Compare that to hacek without unicode or haemophilus. &nbsp;&nbsp;—] <sup>]</sup>&#8260;<sub>]</sub> 14:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
#:'''Comment''' It is ''not'' the case that the Unicode Consortium created this word, so that is not in itself a reason not to prefer '''caron'''. While '''caron''' may be a neologism, it seems to date to the 1970s; the use of '''háček''' in English is earliest attested in the OED in 1953, which as I have said is not a particularly impressive pedigree. Oxford is certain to enter '''caron''' in the dictionary at some point, too. Why wouldn't they? And as I have also said, the Unicode Technical Note about '''caron''' being a "mistake" likely reflects the opinion of Ken Whistler, who was trained in linguistics in California and certainly learned the word '''háček''' when he encountered it. That too is not a reason to prefer this diacriticked borrowing over the much more "English" name '''caron''' ] 19:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
#::It wasn't invented by Unicode, it seems to have been invented at Adobe. Has anyone ever found one single verifiable reference of use of the term which does not stem from work at Adobe in the early-to-mid 1980s?? If so, it's not documented as such in the article. If probably being invented by <small>] ] 08:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)]</small> without much knowledge of Eastern European languages or of linguistics makes a word "English", then "caron" is "English" to the hilt -- otherwise I'm not really sure in what respects it really qualifies... ] 23:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
#:::P.S. Would it be Original Research to speculate that the same guy at Adobe who came up with ] also perpetrated "Caron"? ] 23:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''' -- "Caron" seems to have been invented out of the blue by some unknown and probably unqualified individual at Adobe in the 80s, while linguists have been using "hachek" for many decades. I would support either "wedge (diacritic)" or "hachek" -- but not "caron", a neologistic term of unverifiable origin and unknown etymology which has in fact not been generally used by those who are most knowledgeable in the subject-areas involved. ] 23:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
#:'''Comment''' "Seems to have been invented out of the blue" and "unqualified" are a bit unsubstantiated. Folk etymology at least suggests that the word may be a fusion of ] and ]. ] 08:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
#::And in this context "folk etymology" really means unsubstantiated guessing on a level with "Port Out Starboard Home", or the various explanations offered for "whole nine yards". ] 08:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
#:::If it is a neologism, it still has an origin. Do you have a more plausible etymology? ] 09:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Strong support'''. I am the former 85.70.5.66. I have just created an account. Given the number of edits in the last few days on 85.70.5.66, I hope I am not new enough for my vote to be discounted. The common argument that hacek is not an english word is based purely on the feeling of some individuals that if it doesn't sound ''right'' to them it's not english. If they object that the origins are czech and it can't be english if it's czech, I would beg those people to return ] to where it belongs and invent some purely english word, preferably ending on ''-on''. Robot is also not an english world but a czech one. Like robot, hacek was used in english dictionaries and literature for a long time, and the fact that someone quite recently created a neologism that is heavily used in the computer/typesetting industry doesn't mean that the non-IT world prevalence of "hacek" should be ignored. Plus, I would like to ask some of the linguists here to explain the origins of the ending -on in english words, I suspect that the words like car-on are not english in its origins at all (maybe except from hardon), but they just sound better. Using a term because it "sounds" more english is not really a good idea. ] 09:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
#::Striking out vote from anonymous user. - ] ] 08:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
#::In fact, you can check my IP, most of the participants are covered by nicks and therefore more anonymous than me. I also participated in the previous discussion, and I think that I can confirm that my IP didn't change since then. I don't see a reason for my vote to be discounted. Would you please un-strikeout my vote? ] 09:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
#::I didn't see nothing in the guideline about striking out votes on ''straw polls'' if they are from IP users. AfD, RfA etc are for sure different, because they concern the structure of wikipedia community and you should be a part of the community to participate on the decision process, but this is a content dispute and I think that my support is valid as it is supported by an argument. However, the main argument for you is that the straw polls guideline doesn't mention ignoring votes from IP users. ] 09:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
#:::I registered, I hope my vote counts now. ] 09:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Weak support''': Change from Weak oppose. I'm not an expert, but if the origins were in Czech, and term is widely used, I'd be OK to make this the main term. Making up an English word for something which exists in a foreign language sounds like something the ] would do. ] 09:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


====Oppose====
#'''Oppose'''. Háček is not an English word. č is never found in English words. Caron certainly has caught on in the field that concerns itself with alphabets, which is typography, not linguistics.--] 03:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#:Refer to Derek Balsam's response in the discussion section. +] <sup>(])</sup> 04:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. Háček isn't an English word. It may have some currency, and for that reason, it should redirect to this article, and this article should say "Caron, or háček". --] 07:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. Misplaced Pages editors often fall into the trap of looking for the right answer, rather than accepting that opinions differ and presenting them all without favour. Personally, I don't feel that the primary entry name should be a non-English word when an English word exists (which is why there is an entry on ] rather than 北京). But where multiple names are in use then I feel that the introduction should note all of them, rather than try to conform to one group's idea of "right". I observe "hacek" is used in the Unicode document, for example, and my dictionary uses "haček". Later in the article is the place to write of controversies (all sourced of course), and to indicate (if it is the case) if particular groups have strong opinions. The disagreements here surely mean that the only consensus can be to list all the names; endless seeking after consensus usually means that there is an attempt to exclude one opinion rather than list all of them neutrally. Or so it seems to me. ] 09:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC) (Supplement: having looked again at the (Chambers) dictionary, I guess that it does bless haček as an English word. Not, I observe, ''Háček''. I think we should be very careful in rejecting the view of dictionaries in favour of specialists who can't agree.) {{unsigned|Notinasnaid}}
#''Still'' '''Oppose'''. It now appears to me the the correct English term may be '''hacek''' or '''haček''', rather than '''háček'''. Because of that ambiguity, '''caron''' may very well be the most common English term, whether or not correct. Hence I oppose the move as specified. &mdash; ] | ] 14:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#: Furthermore, ] does not insist (or, as far as I can tell, encourage) English words borrowed from another language to have the diacritics from that language. Names, yes. Terms, no. &mdash; ] | ] 14:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#: I also think you should have copied the votes from the previous unclosed discussion. &mdash; ] | ] 14:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#::'''Note to closing admin''': Previous discussion (closed ''today'') is ] ] 15:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#Continue to '''Oppose'''; prefer use of English term, whatever its history. (and why should I have to say this three times on one issue?) ] 15:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#:Háček '''is''' the English term, according to most linguists. +] <sup>(])</sup> 04:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' I have always heard it referred to as the caron with the non-English form as a mere side fact. ]. ] 18:14, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
#'''Strongly oppose''' I do not think that it is a good idea to redirect this article to '''hacek''' or '''haček''' or '''háček''' or '''hachek'''. While that term does appear in the OED, its attested there only from '''1953''', which is ''not'' the noblest of pedigrees. General knowledge of the names of diacritical marks has a lot to do with character set technology, and for good or for ill, the name '''caron''' is not ever, ever going to go away. I am of course a fan of international standards, and am happy to conform to them wherever possible. It is certainly possible here, where there are four competing spellings for the alternative. I will note that the referred to on the Unicode site, which states that "it should have been called háček" reflects the view of its three authors more than anything else, and one of those was trained in the US as an Americanist linguist, which is why he naturally prefers the term háček, because Americanist linguistics tends to use that term. This article should stay under the name '''caron'''. For my part, I am going to ask my friend ] if he can help shed light on the earliest attestation of '''caron''' in standards, so we can clarify that much in the article as well. ] 11:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
<s>#'''Weak oppose'''</s>: ''In Czech, háček means 'little hook' ... In Slovak it is called mäkčeň ... in Croatian and Serbian kvaka or kvačica (also 'small hook'), katus ('roof') in Estonian and hattu ('hat') in Finnish'' so it seems a bit Czech-centric to use their term as the main definition. ] 08:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC) - change to weak support. ] 09:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
::The term has now become common in English and is found in many English dictionaries, including the Oxford one. Most linguists agree that it is the common English term, most typographers do not, and prefer caron instead due to it's use by the Unicode Consortium. +] <sup>(])</sup> 08:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


* ] → {{no redirect|Caron (diacritic)}}
====Neutral====
* ] → {{no redirect|Caron}}
#'''Neutral'''. I agree with both sentiments. ''Háček'' is certainly not an Enlish word and shouldn’t be used for an article title if a more common English word exists. However, ''Caron'' is fairly inappropriate as well because by my impression it’s not used outside of the Adobe-influenced circles. This is not a frivolous problem for Misplaced Pages, but unfortunately this particular diacritic is not used enough by English speakers to warrant a more common English name, and I am equivocal. I’ll let the democratic mob decide. — ] 09:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
– English language does not use diacritics (] → ] at ]) and, in the English-speaking world, the likeliest ] would be ] which lists 12 people with the surname Caron and three people with the given name Caron. There is a total of six entries listed upon the ] page and it seems unlikely that, in English Misplaced Pages, a diacritic would possess renown sufficient to overwhelm the combined notability of five other topics.&nbsp;—] <small>] • ]</small> 07:19, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
::'''Comment''' As an alternative, I have been thinking of <s>] or ]</s> ]?. It seems neutral enough, and it can be used to describe the usage, controversy, and history of ''háček'' and ''caron''. --] 19:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' First: your reference to "Macron" is not a similarity: "Macron" is the surname of the French president(-ial candidate back then), and rightly a new claim to PRIMARYTOPIC. Still, the bare title ] is the DAB page. Article ] does not have this claim. Second, the fact that a caron diacritic is "not used in English language" does not alter its ''encyclopedic'' relevance. This English-language wiki is not to describe the English language sec. -] (]) 11:29, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:::'''Comment''' It's not "Adobe-influenced circles". It's the name the character bears in the Universal Character Set, the name it bears in ], and (I must check this) also the name it bore in ] (the first edition of which was published in 1983). The UCS is on ''everybody's'' computer now. And so are tools which tell the user that "č" is "c with caron". ] 19:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. The other topics are all very minor with the exception of ]. I still think the diacritic is primary over it however. &mdash;] (]) 11:53, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
::::Per this , 'caron' in ISO 8879 mapped to 'hacek' in ISO DIS 6862.2 in Unicode Version 1.0. For example, unicode 010C was called 'Ccaron' in ISO 8879 and 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C HACEK'in ISO DIS 6862.2. -- '''<font color="navy">]</font><sup><font color="green">(])</font></font></sup>''' 00:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''oppose''' page views don't show clear preference for current topic —] 17:35, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:::::That "site" states plainly "May 1, 1996: This file is obsolete. It was made for Unicode Version 1.0, and has neither been updated nor verified for use with any subsequent version of the standard. Use this data entirely at your own risk.". Unicode 1.0 usedd "hacek" and this was changed with the merger with ISO/IEC 10646, which used standardized character names (that is, names which were already part of other formal standards (ISO/UEC 8859 if not others). ISO 6862, by the way is a "Mathematical coded character set for bibliographic information interchange". ] 07:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I see no challenge for long-term significance, while usage data (1.4% of the visitors to the article end up following the hatnote link to the dab page ) is also likely indicative of the current primary topic being appropriate. – ] 16:54, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': " English language does not use diacritics". What a silly comment. It's true that it doesn't, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. This is an article about the caron, not about using the caron in the English language. ] &#124; ] 10:32, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
===Discussion===
::Next time, try writing th same without the needless, offensive word <small><small>silly</small></small> please. -] (]) 11:02, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
:''Add any additional comments''
*'''Oppose'''. Faulty premise for a move request. Macron would probably still be where it was if Emmanuel Macron didn't exist. Maybe Leslie Caron will become France's oldest president, and we can revisit, how about that... --] 22:54, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
:'''Please check http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn27/ before you vote.'''
*'''Oppose'''. Primary topic. -- ] (]) 12:39, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
::Again, please note that this document reflects the view of its three authors more than anything else, and one of those was trained in the US as an Americanist linguist, which is why he naturally prefers the term háček, because Americanist linguistics tends to use that term. ] 11:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. Although I neglected to make mention of it in the nomination, it should be also noted that "caron", the term currently serving as the putative primary topic of the ] page, has not established a full consensus to express the English-language definition of the diacritic in question. The discussions linked below did take place 16 years ago, but the researched and sourced anti-"caron" linguistic points presented at that time continue to be available for present day perusal by those who may be interested.
:repeatedly archiving the move discusson and then almost immediately restarting it is achiveing nothing and is an insult to those who have already voted. ] 00:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
:All three of those 2006 nominations — ], followed by ] and then the longest one, ] — aimed at establishing "hacek" (or "háček"), rather than "caron", as the "official" main title header of English Misplaced Pages's entry for this diacritic, ended as lengthy "no consensus" to move, rather than as ringing endorsements for the use of "caron".&nbsp;—] <small>] • ]</small> 15:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

::Unicode uses the name ''caron,'' exclusively. There are characters called Caron, Latin Capital Letter C with Caron, Combining Caron, etc. See the . ] (]) 16:50, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
::I'm sorry you feel that way... did you vote in the last discussion? I felt, and I hope some people would agree with me that the last discussion was getting bogged down in personalities rather than facts. Furthermore, the amount of incivility seemed to me at least to be causing issues with communication. Regardless, the poll had already over-run without consensus, and there were two options, either to keep it open for longer or close it as no-consensus and re-open it. I decided on the latter, and although I would be happy for my actions to be criticised and reversed, I still believe I did the right thing. - ] ] 01:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
:::According to Unicode Character Table lists "hacek" alongside "Caron".&nbsp;—] <small>] • ]</small> 22:47, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

::::"COMBINING HACEK" (U+02C7; but not "{{uc:háček}}") was used in Unicode version 1 only (1993; "old name"), but completely abandoned in version 2 (eg, current names are like {{unichar|2=LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C WITH CARON|1=010C}}). The old name is not even kept as ], and is not identifying. Anyway, Unicode is following not defining in this topic (it only ''defines'' code-point to graph-whatever-it-is-named), and we'd better not take it by itself as deciding. That said, it could be worth exploring the reasoning by Unicode for this choice. A more true source could be found in typographic history sources. Still, such a title change is not part of this proposal. -] (]) 05:25, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Regarding Prosfilae's comment: "''...the field that concerns itself with alphabets, which is typography, not linguistics''". Alphabets are certainly a subject of typography. But typography does not lay sole claim to the subject of alphabets. Alphabets are indeed a proper subject of ] and always have been. Per Misplaced Pages's own article ], "''The study of writing systems themselves is in any case considered a branch of linguistics.''" Writing systems are part of any linguist's education, and linguists have often been the inventors of writen systems such as the ]. So it's simply incorrect to say that linguistics is not the field concerned with alphabets. ] 03:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
* '''Neutral''' I agree with the oppose arguments, but there might still not be a primary topic. ] (powera, ], ]) 01:04, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' per Uanfala's statistics, no evidence for no primary topic. ] (]) 02:55, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
: Then let's note that the linguists behind the IPA don't agree on háček as the name either; if you turn to page 184 of the 1999 edition of the Handbook of the International Phonetic Association, you'll see it called "wedge; háček", IMO because they recognized that háček was not a proper English name for anything. Anyway, linguistics may study writing systems, but rarely at this level; a caron is merely one symbol in one writing system to them, but something a typographer working on pan-Europeans fonts works with day in and day out.--] 05:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
{{abot}}
::Riight... so you're saying that printing machines should have more of a say in what a book made of, since they work with it day in, day out. No, that doesn't make any sense. Typography is simply the layout of the written expression of speech, it couldn't have more to do with linguistics. How can someone study writing systems and ignore diacritics? ''Ok, I'll learn Japanese, but I'll only learn every fifth kanji stroke, everything else is just a minor detail.'' Just to give any idea what difference diacritics make to the word háček in Czech: háček {{IPA|/ɦʌːʧɛk/}} vs. hacek {{IPA|/ɦaʦɛk/}}. Ignoring this as a minor detail is absurd, especially for a linguist/typographer. And if háček isn't a proper English name, why is it taught in universities, why is it in academic books? Why does the term caron seem to be confined to the internet, and mostly due to the Unicode name (which is as an error)? PS: I've worked with fonts before. I din't care what the symbols were called, or anything about them. I just imitated their general shape. I may have produced thousands of diacritics, never knowing what they were, and how they are used. A linguist has to know this, that's his job. +] <sup>(])</sup> 07:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
== "˅" listed at ] ==

]
:::Yes, printers know a lot more about what a book is made of than a writer does. How many writers know the first thing what glues bind books the best, or what papers are good for what purposes? You can study writing systems and ignore a particular diacritic the same way you can study poetry and not be familiar with every poem. Unless a linguist works with Czech or a few other languages, there's no reason for them to know the first thing about a caron, and even a scholar in writing systems has no need to obsess over one diacritic in one writing system. I can't imagine how you edited fonts without knowing anything about what you were working with, but I can't say it says much for your scholarship in the field.
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect ] and has thus listed it ]. This discussion will occur at ] until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ]]] 11:26, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

:::The Unicode name did not come out of nowhere; it's used in the Adobe name lists that predate Unicode, for example. That acknowledgement doesn't have the full support of the Unicode Consortium, as Cam points out below. lists the letters used in English; as you will note, č isn't one of them. An English name has to be written using English letters, and even in the most broad sense, č isn't one of them. Why is it, that of all the IPA characters given names by the Handbook of the IPA, the caron is the only one not unambigiously given one name? Again, I suspect it was because neither wedge nor háček were satisfactory, since wedge was too ambigious and háček is just not English.--] 08:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

::::If they don't want to know the first thing about the háček, why then are they at the háček/caron page at the Misplaced Pages? And languages change, foreign words are adopted. A millenia ago, the letters é, á etc. would have no place in English either, but today they occur in many words borrowed from other languages. And if háček isn't English, I'll ask again - why is it taught in universities, why is it in academic books? Why is in dictionaries? The note isn't an offical Unicode document, but it's written by 3 very prominent linguists/typographers, and important enough to be released as a Unicode Technical Note. PS: You'll note that Adobe is a computer company. Per my post above, I belive 'caron' is restricted to computers, and derivatives of the Unicode standard. +] <sup>(])</sup> 15:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::It isn't correct to say that the UTN was written by three "very prominent linguists/typographers". Ken Whistler was trained in Chinese and Americanist linguistics, but Rick McGowan while he speaks Japanese and has studied writing systems is "just" a programmer, and Asmus Freytag is a physicist. All are friends of mine. None work as linguists currently and none of them has ever been a typographer. If you want the opinion of an actual "prominent linguist/typographer" associated with the Unicode standard, you can ask me, and I prefer '''caron''' to '''háček''' or '''haček''' or '''hacek''' or '''hachek'''. ] 07:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
::::::Mr. Everson, I fully respect your authority on this matter, but your explanation "if you want a prominent person's opinion, ask me" is not a really good argument and I think that you know that. Would you please clarify '''why''' you prefer caron to hacek? Is it because it ''sounds'' better in English than hacek? Or is there another reason, better than personal preference? As I already said before, I don't think that words ending on -on like caron, coupon or encephalon are "english" in their origins. ] 08:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::::If Rick McGowan has studied writing systems his opinion is valuable, and the fact that the other two are not prominent linguists doesn't detract the fact that their opinion was considered valuable enough to be considered a Unicode Technical Note. While you are a linguist, you are focused in the computer fields of typography, in which the term caron prevails. (Mostly due to the Unicode standard) At universities, in dictionaries, in most linguistic literature the term háček prevails. +] <sup>(])</sup> 08:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Please pay attention. Of course all three of them have studied writing systems. Everyone associated with Unicode has done at least some study. Ken is the trained linguist. He's the one who strongly prefers '''háček'''. Your appeal to authority was to those three, and because they are "prominent linguist/typesetters". Only Ken has a degree in linguistics, and none of the three are typesetters. A Unicode Technical Note is, by the way, informative, and is not a part of the formal standard in any way. You suggested that the opinion of a person associated with the Unicode Standard who was a linguist and typesetter was important, and a bit tongue-in-cheek I noted that I disagree with Ken. He likes '''háček'''; I like '''caron'''. ''BOTH'' of the words are neologisms. One is a borrowing from Czech not attested in the OED before 1953. The other seems to be a coinage (rather than a borrowing), perhaps based on the names of other typographical symbols, ] and ]. which seems to date from sometime in the 1970s. ''Neither'' of them seems to have an absolute claim of precedence over the other. I prefer the name '''caron''' because it is the formally standardized name. The trend is certainly for people concerned with fonts and keyboards and other aspects of character set technology and typography to use the standardized name. Further, it is simply simpler. It has one spelling, not three or four, and isn't festooned with non-English diacritics. I went to university. I learned the word '''háček'''. Later I learned the word '''caron'''. I don't believe that "in most linguistic literature the term háček prevails". Most linguistic literature doesn't discuss the names of diacritical marks. Typographic literature discusses the names of diacritical marks, and in that world, the term '''caron''' is prevailing. We should not add to the confusion by changing the name of this article. ] 08:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

::::: Yes, foreign words are adopted. But the general trend in English is to drop diacritics, even ordinary ones from Spanish and French. You'll note that a Google search on Dvorak brings up an article on Antonin Dvorak on the first page, and (more tellingly) Dvorák, Antonín on the second. Even on names, the caron is dropped. If this were hacek versus caron, I might be arguing a different way.--] 16:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::I would agree that diacritics tend to be dropped, which is probably why the OED lists "hacek" as an alternative spelling, along with "háček" in their ]. - ] ] 16:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::Ah, well if the internet says so. Never mind the countless books and people who spell it the correct way. Also you'll note that the háček isn't found on the default US nor UK keyboards yet, which may be a major factor preventing it's adoption on digital media, causing use of caron on computers, as opposed to linguistics-oriented literature which by far favours the use of háček over caron. And diacritics may be dropped, so what? But what has this got to do with this vote? Are you arguing that we should move this article to "hacek" because at a certain point in the future, the diacritics from háček ''may'' or ''may not'' be dropped? +] <sup>(])</sup> 04:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::::The reason why it's not on the keyboards and not in the common single-byte character sets designed for English is because it's not an English letter, and the webpage of Michael Everson, which lists the characters of the alphabets of European languages, does not list it as a letter. Háček is not acceptable because it's not an English word, and it's blatantly not an English word because it uses a letter that's not used in English. The last thing English needs is another random addition to its orthography.--] 04:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::You seem a bit confused. Háček is not a letter, it is a diacritic. -- '''<font color="navy">]</font><sup><font color="green">(])</font></font></sup>''' 10:07, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::Well that's fascinating, but this isn't a vote whether to adopt háčeks into English orthorgaphy, it's a vote on where the article should be located. Háček is an English word. It is found in linguistic literature, university lectures, dictionaries, etc. (I'm stating that for the third time, it is a point you have repeatedly ignored). Caron is limited to the field of computers, it was invented early 90s by Linotype. Caron seems to be the more common term on computers simply because of the Unicode Consortium's mistake of labelling the háček as such, instead of the correct term 'háček', but in academic circles (notably in the field of linguistics), háček is by far the more common term, with caron being about as common as "the v-shaped inverted hat thing". +] <sup>(])</sup> 08:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::Actually if you simply Google "caron ˇ" you get 16,300 hits, and if you Google "háček ˇ" you get 11,100. "By far the more common term"? ] 09:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

This has probably been mentioned in the past, but the Unicode Technical Note linked above is not official Unicode Consortium opinion, it's the opinion of some experts. (I still stand by my vote in support of a move.) --] 04:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Just some interesting references: is a speculative account of why the IPA does not use the háček; shows that in Unicode Version 1.0, while the SGML used 'caron', the Unicode character name used 'hacek'; shows that 'hacek' was the old name for what is now called 'caron' in unicode; indicates that 'caron' is the French equivalent of 'háček' and makes the comment that ''typographers know the caron also by its Czech name, hacek, pronounced “haa-check”''. If 'caron' is French, then the issue comes down to which foreign language term should we use? While it doesn't work in French, 'caron' might be from some cognate of 'crown', which would be a descriptive name for the symbol. -- '''<font color="navy">]</font><sup><font color="green">(])</font></font></sup>''' 10:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

: I will note that the reference on why the IPA doesn't use the caron would rather assume racism then recognize that the caron is a diacritic, and is wrong in saying that the ] developed from the ] (as the essay linked from the bottom of both of those pages will show.)--] 16:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

For those who say that "háček" is not English, it appears in the ] (full edition online to subscribers at ) with full diacritics. However, it seems like "caron" is the French name as Donald points out above . The word "caron" does not appear in the ]. - ] ] 11:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:Yes, English is quite prolific at borrowing. I would note that we blithely use 'tilde' (Spanish), 'cedillo' (Spanish), 'breve' (Latin), 'umlaut' (German), 'macron' (Greek) and 'ogonek' (Polish) as names of diacritics. -- '''<font color="navy">]</font><sup><font color="green">(])</font></font></sup>''' 13:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
*Yes; having consulted the OED for the first discussion, I will add, as Francis does not, that they cite four grammars of Czech for ''háček'' (oldest 1953); three (and arguably four) of these treat it as a non-English term; and two of them ''translate'' it. ] 15:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
** "English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar. " &mdash; ] | ] 15:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
:: You are quite right, the etymology is given:
:::
:: And the definition is given:
:::A name for the diacritic {nfhacek}, which is used in Baltic and Slavonic languages.
::- ] ] 15:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I forget to note that "Also ''hacek''" is given under the "Other spellings" tab. - ] ] 15:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

That ''caron'' is a French word appears to be pure speculation, and I suspect it's just a wrong-headed guess. The háček is not used in the French language, and the single source cited above has no explanation and no references—probably compiled from Web sources. Does someone have a French dictionary or other real source? ''—]&nbsp;]&nbsp;<small>2006-07-07&nbsp;14:02&nbsp;Z</small>''

:I have checked in a number of French dictionaries and it doesn't appear. However, it should be noted that these dictionaries were in no way as comprehensive as the Oxford English, and I originally checked in the Oxford Shorter (a two volume version, and anything but ''short'') and "háček" did not appear in there. If anyone has access to a comprehensive French dictionary it would be nice to know. - ] ] 14:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:The site that says that 'caron' is French belongs to the ], which presumably has better knowledge of these sorts of things than most web sites. -- '''<font color="navy">]</font><sup><font color="green">(])</font></font></sup>''' 14:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:: Hm. It's not clear what that site says, since the page in question has no title, notes, or references (it also appears to say that "hacek accent" is the only English name). ''—]&nbsp;]&nbsp;<small>2006-07-07&nbsp;15:35&nbsp;Z</small>''

:For what it's worth, ''caron'' does not appear to be an entry in the or editions of the Dictionary of the French Academy. (Warning: clumsy navigation) --] 14:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:: Thanks. Unlike English, French does have an official, authoritatively-defined vocabulary; by definition, French is exactly what the Académie says it is. ''Caron'' is not a French word, despite that a typography site has presented on a web page. ''—]&nbsp;]&nbsp;<small>2006-07-07&nbsp;15:35&nbsp;Z</small>''

:: Also note ], which does not mention ''caron'' as a French synonym ]. ''—]&nbsp;]&nbsp;<small>2006-07-07&nbsp;15:37&nbsp;Z</small>''
But '''caron''' is the term used in the . ] 11:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
: This is not an indication of ''caron's'' French ''origin''. It probably just means that the Unicode translators didn't know the name ]. ''—]&nbsp;]&nbsp;<small>2006-07-08&nbsp;15:35&nbsp;Z</small>''
::I didn't suggest that the term had an origin in French. I said that it is a term in use in French. And the French Unicode translators were quite expert so it is quite a claim to make that they were really "unaware" if '''hatchek''' actually has currency in French. I do not know that it does. What is its provenance? It is not in my large Collins-Robert dictionary. ] 16:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

==Hacek==
Evertype and everyone, you can call "caron" English as long as you want, it will not become English (the ending -on is highly suspicious to me, coup-on for instance is french in origin). As the origins of "caron" are dark, and in my experience, things are usually trivial, I don't believe in the french theory nor spanish theory, I believe that there was this guy with the surname "Caron" in Adobe, Linotype or wherever, and his colleagues called the "hacek" caron once, because he worked with it and they just didn't know the real name. Also note that the czech name for the acute accent is "carka", ie it could be a miss-read/spelled version of this in case some typesetter was searching for the name of the "czech" diacritic. The only difference between háček and caron is therefore the way it sounds to the "english" ears. Does for instance the word ''innuendo'' sound english to you? What about ''double entendre''? Anyway, would it be more acceptable for you to use Hacek without diacritic? It is being used like this quite a lot, and it would be a reasonable compromise as it would make the word sound more ''english''. ] 01:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
:Prosfilaes, if you would support a move to ''Hacek'', please move it to ''Conditional support''. ] 01:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
::It is pretty silly to suggest that "the ending ''-on'' is suspicious". It is a Greek suffix commonly found in English, indeed in the name of the diacritical mark ]. It would not be acceptable for me to use '''háček''' without diacritics. ] 08:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
:::''It is pretty silly''? Please remain civil. I am not calling your opinions silly either. Back for the topics: as you said, it is a greek suffix. So English does absorb words from other languages, there is no reason why it wouldn't be able to absorb Czech words, as it did with ] and with hacek. The fact that hacek is contained in english dictionaries is sufficient evidence that it has been adopted into English, however it sounds to your ears. ] 08:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
::::As someone pointed out above, English is a bastard language (in more ways than one), and we probably have more words of Czech origin than simply "robot". I was disgusted before that people were trying to change this into an ethnic dispute. It is not and I won't have it. Incidentally your vote was stricken as you are an anonymous user. - ] ] 09:03, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::Yes, "silly". The word "silly" is not uncivil. Also the suggestion that '''caron''' might derive from "carka" is also unlikely, as the word is '''čarka'''. ] 09:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

==="Greek -on suffix commonly found in English"===
:::It's somewhat questionable whether there's a Greek suffix -on which is "commonly found in English" in any relevant sense. There was a Greek neuter nominative-accusative singular suffix omicron-nu, which didn't convey any specific meaning in Greek other than neuter nominative-accusative singular. When this is used in active English word-formation (as opposed to merely being passively carried over from Greek, as in Phenomenon), then it is mainly found in terms for "hard" scientific entities (Proton, Boson, Neon, Xenon, Transposon etc.). Other ancient Greek endings which could take on the shape omega-nu (such as the present active participle suffix -ont-) don't give really rise to any productive English "-on" suffix with significant common meanings shared between the words to which such a suffix would be attached. ] 09:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
::::I didn't say it was all that productive or that it had any meaning of its own. There are plenty of words which end in -on that have a Greek origin. ] is the relevant one here. My point is that there was nothing particularly "alien to English" about '''caron'''. ] 09:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:41, 20 October 2024

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

  • RM, Caron → Háček, No consensus, 31 March 2006
  • RM, Caron → Háček, No consensus, 7 July 2006
  • RM, Caron → Háček, No consensus, 11 July 2006
  • RM, Caron → Caron (diacritic), Not moved, 19 April 2022, #Requested move 19 April 2022
This article is rated Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
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"Faggin Nazzi" writing system?

Is this for real? Or is it vandalism? See the red link in the "Usage" section of the article. Agent X 12:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It is real. See http://www.friul.net/dizionario_nazzi/norme_ortografiche.php if you read italian. rado 13:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
And to remove any potential confusion, I wrote a stub about the Faggin-Nazzi system. rado 13:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Red letter

Is there a good reason why one of the letters is in red? I searched for red and it doesn't appear. 84.9.54.175 (talk) 22:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Because it doesn't link to an article.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization of DŽ in Slovak

I have removed the statement that with DŽ in Slovak, capitalization of both D and Ž is preferable. Cf. , , it was incorrect. When it's freestanding, yes, but not when it is a part of a word. Can a native speaker give a definitive answer? rdancer (talk) 03:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

No doubt only the first letter is capitalized. I am not sure how much "dž" is considered a letter of its own in Slovak, though in Czech it is not a part of the alphabet (the only "digraph letter" is CH, representing /x/). Nevertheless, even in CH only the C is capitalized. The same applies for Slovak, and digraphs in other languages such as English. I am a native speaker of Czech, not Slovak. Imploder (talk) 18:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Other form

In my large atlas, the form of the caron in ď/ľ/ť is not an apostrophe, but identical to the horn on Vietnamese ơ/ư. Is this common?212.137.63.86 (talk) 11:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I cannot see any difference in the shape of a (serif) apostrophe and a horn. Apart from that, a horn touches its base letter, whereas an apostrophe or a caron does not. — Emil J. (formerly EJ) 12:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Caron

Can anyone provide a pronunciation (in English) for caron?

I could not find the word on a free dictionary site. Or even in the online version of the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary. Charletan (talk) 04:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

As it's spelled, I'd assume. As Care + on, or IPA kɛɹɑn in American English or kɛəɒn in British English (much more speculative, since that's not my dialect.)--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:14, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
kærən in British English. BabelStone (talk) 00:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Xi

Xi (Ѯ, ѯ) is a letter of the early Cyrillic alphabet. It have a caron.--Юе Артеміс (talk) 22:42, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

big character missing from grey box

I first thought it could not be produced by its own, but noticed that the "Diacritics" list below the grey box has it. Is it only forgotten to put there, or is there some other reason? 85.217.42.90 (talk) 10:52, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

It is there. This is likely a problem of your browser. It might help to put a space or something before the character, but I can’t test it as I do not suffer from the original problem.—Emil J. 11:10, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Now I tested it with IE7, and it shows okay. It seems not to work in FF at all, I just tried an older version, the earlier time I used a new version of FF. 85.217.42.90 (talk) 23:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, just noticed it wasn't an old version of Firefox. I mislooked 22.0 for 2.20... 212.50.203.198 (talk) 22:19, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

So, it seems to work in IE & FF 23, and not in FF 22 and Google Chrome. 85.217.42.90 (talk) 21:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Currently works in Chrome. 212.50.203.198 (talk) 05:19, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Use of Ǧ and Ǩ in Skolt Sami

There is no source for why the use of the characters are used inconsistently. I also doubt if it's true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Littleowljrn (talk • contribs) 18:28, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

You doubt if what is true? Out article on Skolt Sami is quite clear on that ‹č ǯ š ž ǩ ǧ› are existing graphemes and on their phoneme values. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 08:14, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Hacek versus caron

This edit is highly biased. Both "caron" and "hacek" are understood by certain groups of English speakers to mean this symbol, so neither is inaccurate. References are not for editorializing; I personally think the problems with "wedge" should be clear to the English-speaking reader.

"Its earliest known use was in the United States Government Printing Office Style Manual of 1967, for an unrelated mark with same shape." is false. You can check the source at the Internet Archive, and given that it comes after acute, grave, tilde, circumflex, macron, breve, diaeresis, cedilla, and caret, it seems quite likely to be exactly what is now called "caron". Statements like "Though considered “standardese,”" violate WP:MOSWTW, the Manual of Style. Particular sources that call it "standardese" can be cited, but it's certainly not universally considered such. (While I'm at the MoS, MOS:CURLY calls for straight quotes, not curly quotes.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:51, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes I understand, I see what I’m facing. I’ll try to sort things out when I’ve got some spare time. — I don’t agree that ASCII quotes should be the house style policy. I don’t see the point in enforcing a particular kind of quotes on users that have got habits with curly quotes. We’ve got trouble in French with the ASCII apostrophe, and you can use either in the text. It doesn’t seem appropriate to even mention the ASCII quotes wrt users currently using Unicode. -- Hnvnc (talk) 19:55, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
The policy on enforcing a certain type of quotes is far beyond this page. That's the rules for the English Misplaced Pages.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:59, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Noted, thanks. Hopefully I’ll remember. Please don’t interpret any malicious intent in making typos of that sort. (BTW in French only the page titles are under ASCII constraint, and even there are many redirections for the sake of curly apostrophe.) -- Hnvnc (talk) 11:42, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

page preview not working properly

When previewing the page caron from another Misplaced Pages page, it shows an image of a Phoenician sin Phoenician_sin.png instead of a caron image. Maybe someone knows how to fix that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninjamin (talk • contribs) 08:59, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Previews seem to just show the first image that is anywhere on the page, so I guess it works as intended (still confusing). Ninjamin (talk) 23:26, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Names of this diacritic in English

The lead para begins with this statement:

A caron (/ˈkærən/), háček or haček (/ˈhɑːtʃɛk/ or /ˈheɪtʃɛk/; plural háčeks or háčky) also known as a hachek, wedge, …

  1. Just because the original language of háček (Czech) uses accents doesn't mean that the loanword in English either does or should. It's more common to drop all accents, even in such common cases as cafe, nee, soupcon etc. which originally had accents in French (café, née, soupçon). What's needed here is some reference to prove that it's known in English as háček or haček. Failing that, the text quoted above should show it unaccented: hacek, as many of us will have seen it used in English. (Strictly speaking, even mentioning that usage in English requires at least one reference to comply with Misplaced Pages policy — as do each of the other names given.)
  2. We also need a reference to show that English actually imports the foreign plural háčky, rather than using the normal rules of pluralisation in English. Again, I don't think it likely we'll find one, but we'll probably find the regular English plural haceks without looking too hard.
  3. The § Names section uses the sensible convention of italicising the various names, e.g. caron. I think the lead para should too.

Taking all these points into account, the lead para would begin thus:

A caron (/ˈkærən/), hacek (/ˈhɑːtʃɛk/ or /ˈheɪtʃɛk/; plural haceks) also known as a hachek, wedge, …

yoyo (talk) 11:29, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 19 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved   Kadzi   (talk) 08:01, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


– English language does not use diacritics (Macron → Macron (diacritic) at Talk:Macron (diacritic)#Requested move 7 May 2017) and, in the English-speaking world, the likeliest WP:PRIMARYTOPIC would be Caron (name) which lists 12 people with the surname Caron and three people with the given name Caron. There is a total of six entries listed upon the Caron (disambiguation) page and it seems unlikely that, in English Misplaced Pages, a diacritic would possess renown sufficient to overwhelm the combined notability of five other topics. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:19, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

  • Comment First: your reference to "Macron" is not a similarity: "Macron" is the surname of the French president(-ial candidate back then), and rightly a new claim to PRIMARYTOPIC. Still, the bare title macron is the DAB page. Article Caron (name) does not have this claim. Second, the fact that a caron diacritic is "not used in English language" does not alter its encyclopedic relevance. This English-language wiki is not to describe the English language sec. -DePiep (talk) 11:29, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The other topics are all very minor with the exception of Parfums Caron. I still think the diacritic is primary over it however. —Xezbeth (talk) 11:53, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
  • oppose page views don't show clear preference for current topic —blindlynx 17:35, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I see no challenge for long-term significance, while usage data (1.4% of the visitors to the article end up following the hatnote link to the dab page ) is also likely indicative of the current primary topic being appropriate. – Uanfala (talk) 16:54, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment: " English language does not use diacritics". What a silly comment. It's true that it doesn't, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. This is an article about the caron, not about using the caron in the English language. JIP | Talk 10:32, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Next time, try writing th same without the needless, offensive word silly please. -DePiep (talk) 11:02, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Faulty premise for a move request. Macron would probably still be where it was if Emmanuel Macron didn't exist. Maybe Leslie Caron will become France's oldest president, and we can revisit, how about that... --Quiz shows 22:54, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:39, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment. Although I neglected to make mention of it in the nomination, it should be also noted that "caron", the term currently serving as the putative primary topic of the Caron (disambiguation) page, has not established a full consensus to express the English-language definition of the diacritic in question. The discussions linked below did take place 16 years ago, but the researched and sourced anti-"caron" linguistic points presented at that time continue to be available for present day perusal by those who may be interested.
All three of those 2006 nominations — Talk:Caron/Archive 1#Requested move, followed by Talk:Caron/Archive 1#Requested move 2 and then the longest one, Talk:Caron/Archive 2#Requested move (redux) — aimed at establishing "hacek" (or "háček"), rather than "caron", as the "official" main title header of English Misplaced Pages's entry for this diacritic, ended as lengthy "no consensus" to move, rather than as ringing endorsements for the use of "caron". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Unicode uses the name caron, exclusively. There are characters called Caron, Latin Capital Letter C with Caron, Combining Caron, etc. See the Unicode Character Table. Surfo (talk) 16:50, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
According to this link, Unicode Character Table lists "hacek" alongside "Caron". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:47, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
"COMBINING HACEK" (U+02C7; but not "HÁČEK") was used in Unicode version 1 only (1993; "old name"), but completely abandoned in version 2 (eg, current names are like U+010C Č LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C WITH CARON). The old name is not even kept as alias, and is not identifying. Anyway, Unicode is following not defining in this topic (it only defines code-point to graph-whatever-it-is-named), and we'd better not take it by itself as deciding. That said, it could be worth exploring the reasoning by Unicode for this choice. A more true source could be found in typographic history sources. Still, such a title change is not part of this proposal. -DePiep (talk) 05:25, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"˅" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect ˅ and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 8#˅ until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 11:26, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

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