Talk:Brahmin: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 07:01, 10 July 2006 editAnirudh777 (talk \| contribs)151 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 14:21, 19 November 2024 edit undoBishonen (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators80,260 edits Undid revision 1258395726 by Ithefallengod (talk). rv troll.Tag: Undo
(879 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown)
Line 1:		Line 1:
	=={{~~Talkheader~~}}		{{Skip to talk}}
			{{gs/talk notice\|sasg}}
			{{Talk header}}
			{{Old prod\|nom=Ankush 89\|nomdate=10 April 2015\|nomreason=This article does not meet Misplaced Pages Quality Standards and is just favoured and biased as an attempt to promote the fame of this caste\|con=Gene93k\|condate=10 April 2015\|conreason=Deletion is too controversial for PROD. Requires discussion at AfD.}}
			{{Old peer review\|archive=1}}
			{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=B\|vital=yes\|1=
			{{WikiProject India\|importance=High\|assess-date=September 2024}}
			{{WikiProject Hinduism\|importance = Top}}
			{{WikiProject Indian caste system\|importance=Top}}
			{{WikiProject Sociology\|importance=mid}}
			{{WikiProject Ethnic groups\|importance=mid}}
			{{WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors\|user=Jack Greenmaven \|date=May 10, 2012 }}
			}}
			{{Expert-talk}}
			{{User:MiszaBot/config
			\|archiveheader = {{aan}}
			\|maxarchivesize = 100K
			\|counter = 4
			\|minthreadsleft = 3
			\|algo = old(90d)
			\|archive = Talk:Brahmin/Archive %(counter)d
			}}

			== Genetic heredity ==
	==NOTE==
	It is certainly not commendable to point out that Brahmins, in general that brahmins put forward an opposition on the growth of the dalit community. Present day brahmins trat them as equals and also treat them as equals.Moreover, they also accept the reservations for the dalits.
	An acton of a few black sheep cannot be attributed to the whole community of which belong many respectable figures.
	I would also like to add that Brahmins treat the Mahatma and his ideals with utmost respect, today.
	Vinay Iyer

			The article as it stands reads as if there is no basis to the brahmins as an endogamous caste group, which is clearly nonsense. All genetic analyses show that brahmins show significantly more proximity to each other than to regional and other caste groups. The article ought to be revised to reflect this point. If a Tamil brahmin is closer to a Punjabi brahmin than a Punjabi brahmin is to a Punjabi khatri, then this clearly shows that brahmins are a genetic endogamous group and that the history of India reflects that brahmins had a hereditary status and were held separate from people who merely learned or practised some portion of a religious praxis, or held allegiance to a religious corpus. Indeed, genetic tests connnect brahmins together and give the lie to the claim that being a brahmin was merely a vocational choice within the framework of Indian culture. The article is misleading and seems to imply that there is no such thing as an inherited brahmin caste genetic heritage, when this is demonstrably false. ] (]) 00:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
	==REQUEST==
	NOTE:THIS ARTICLE IS ONLY MEANT TO EDUCATE THE WORLD ABOUT THE ORIGIN AND ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE BRAHMIN COMMUNITY PLEASE ENSURE THAT WHATEVER YOU CONTRIBUTE IS RELEVANT TO THE TITLE OF THE ARTICLE, AND THE SPACE IS NOT USED FOR PROPAGATING HATRED AGAINST THE COMMUNITY.HOPE EVERYONE TAKES THIS MESSAGE IN PROPER VEIN.

			:Please note that we don't mention genetics in caste articles as per ]! ] (]) 05:51, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
	I have to say this because, i believe that the recent changes to article on the main page are not appropriate (particularly the views expressed about the community).
			== "]" listed at ] ==
			]
			The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink\|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 17#Khandal}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;">]</span> (]) 20:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

			== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 August 2024 , remove 'of gujrat' because source doesn't mentions it ==
	==Profession==

			{{edit extended-protected\|Brahmin\|answered=yes}}
	Traditionally seeking alms in the name of the God has been the profession of Brahmins.] 11:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
			Change

			'Origin and History'
	== expansion ==
	I removed the Boston Brahmins because they are not "another meaning" - they are merely a demeaning.

			It seems likely that Kannauj and Middle country was the place of origin of majority of migrating Brahmins throughout the medieval centuries. Coming from Kannauj is a frequent claim among Brahmins of Gujrat in areas distant from Madhyadesha or Ganges heartland.
	== expansion ==
	I'd like to see some of the data from ] added to this page. This discusses the history but none of the tenets and beliefs. ] 01:11, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

			To
	It has nothing to do with the Brahmin caste. The omnipresence in that article refers to the concept of Brahman ,'God', Allah, however he/she/it is known. ].

			'Origin and history'
	==Meaning of the word==
	:''The word Brahmin is said to literally mean "One who has realised or attempts to realise Brahman".''

			It seems likely that ] and Middle country was the place of origin of majority of migrating Brahmins throughout the medieval centuries. Coming from Kannauj is a frequent claim among Brahmins in areas distant from Madhyadesha or Ganges heartland. ] (]) 13:40, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
	Wouldn't this make it like a ]? ] 19:04, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

			:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> ] redirects to ] anyways, and also please provide a reason for removing ''Brahmins of Gujrat'' ] (]) 09:39, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
	No. There is a difference between brahmin and brahman(God)

			== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 October 2024 ==
	wat a stupid understanding,there is a definitve difference between brahmin and brahman.

			{{edit extended-protected\|Brahmin\|answered=yes}}
	== Alternate meanings ==
			Branhminism has been used to oppress people from other caste group. ] (]) 16:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
	I believe this word was used in the 19th century to describe fans/followers of Johannes Brahms and his style of music - the ''Brahmins'' as opposed to the ''Wagnerians''. ] 07:48, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
			:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] \| ] 17:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

	== "code brahmin" ==
	Worth adding that the term "code brahmin" has been applied to the very skilled and numerous programmers originating from india? or that the term has become some sort of sarcastic derogatory term applied to a person of indian descent? See:
	] 23:47, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

	== Brahmins claim to have realised Brahman ==

	''"Brahmin is said to literally mean One who has realised or attempts to realise Brahman".''
	I firmly dispute the fact that Brahmins have realised Brahman (pronounced as Brahm or GOD, though both words are similar in pronounciation. They also claim to be the priestly class of Hindus, however, there are numerous examples of other castes who are priests or purohits (mahants)of many temples including the Bhumihar and Rajput commmunity. Several castes have their own priests.

	That is your opinion. Note that the word is derived from Sanskrit and the word mainly referred to the Rishis of the Vedas who HAD realized Brahman and his power. From there the word is derived. Brahmins today continue to try to realize Brahmin, as do other people of other castes.]

	== Problematic fifth paragraph ==

	The fifth paragraph is in serious need of editing. It is certainly not written with a NPOV; at the least, the claims about "many Brahmins" need to be elaborated and substantiated. What does "many" mean? What evidence is there for these claims, or at least, who is making the claims? I'm not saying that the claims are untrue, just that I don't think an encyclopedia article can include them without further substantiation or citations. The claim about "an increasing percentage of Brahmins" needs similar substantiation. And, the point about the media in the end, as written, seems utterly tangential to the subject of the article.

	Again, I'm not taking a stand on the truth of any of these claims. But, as written, the paragraph does not seem to meet Misplaced Pages standards.


	== Famous Brahmins==

	Need to organize this section to make it more interesting. Perhaps add 2-3 words for each individual to mention the contributions. Spellings need to confirm with existing articles, most people already have articles.--] 06:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

	== First paragraph badly written ==

	I am not aware of the accuracy of the content of the first paragraph, but it seems to be filled with grammatical and spelling errors. Would someone who knows the topic well enough make an attempt to clean it up, please?

	The first para is now accurate, I have removed the questionable word "transient". --] 02:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

	== ] ==

	This article contains the following text:

	:'''Gautam''' is caste of ]s in ]. They are also known as ''gurjar gaur''.

	Leaving aside the mismatch between text and title, if this information is accurate, should it be merged with this article, or elsewhere? --] (]) 21:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

	The information is correct. I have checked. --] 02:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

	== Non Brahmin Names ==

	In some categories (like: others), non-brahmin names (singh), mentioned. If this page describes brahmin categiry, these names of castes other than brahmin should be removed.

	Basawon Singh was indeed a Bhumihar Brahmin.--] 02:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

	==Proposal for list of brahmins==
	Propose to move the list of brahmins to a new list article ] 14:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

	==Suggestions==

	* Panchagauda and Panchdravida should be ordered from West to East.
	* Brief (1-3 words) description for each prominent brahmin.
	--] 02:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


	==Brahmins in poverty==
	I strongly dispute the statement that "In the modern democratic India, the Brahmins are still not only poverty stricken, but also shunted out of every opportunity". This seems deliberately an anti-Brahmin statement without any factual basis. Why would there be any need for reservations for OBCs if this was true.
	R

	== From the contents of the Brahmins redirect ==

	----
	==Classification of Brahmins==

	The first classification of Brahmins might have felt during the Vedic age itself. Consequently, the concept of ] came into existence. The gotra concept was probably propounded during the later Vedic period. It’s a system of classification and identification of various families and indicating common descent mainly from eight ‘root’ ]s.

	Then as the 'Aryanization' and “Sanskritization’ of the ‘Indian sub-continent’ procedded, it might have felt that the whole Brahmin community (by then spread almost over the whole sub-continent) should be further subdivided. Thus the Brahmins were divided into two main regional sub-groups. Brahmins residing north of Vindhyachal- Satpura mountain range (this mountain range roughly divides the north-south expansion of Indian sub-continent) were called as ‘Gaur’ Brahmins whereas the inhabitants of south of the range were known as ‘Dravida’ Brahmins. Sanskrit was still considered as the main language of literary and administrative activities during those times. It was the main language of the courts of the kings and the primary mode of communication among the literates throughout the sub-continent. Most of the literary works in astronomy, astrology, mathematics, economics, political science, literature and general used to be written in this language. However, a few other languages like Prakrit. Pali etc., in the north and Tamil (old) in the south existed side-by-side. Yet those languages seemed to be considered as the languages of masses.

	As the devlopment of languages (and / or dialects) in different regions of the sub-continent shaped, Sanskit started being replaced as the language of courts and literary activities. That further prompted the classification of Brahmins. Thus another division among Brahmin communties on geographical and linguistic basis took place.

	(1) ‘Pancha-Gaur’, i.e., five main sub-groups of Brahmins stemming from the erstwhile “Gaur’ sub-group. Considering west, north-west to east, these were:
	*]
	*]
	*]
	*]
	*]

	The ‘Gaur Brahmins’ group mentioned here appears to be the remnants after other groups parted away from the primary ‘Gaur’ group. It is to be noted that 'Gaur' not 'Gauda' was the first parent sub-group of Brahmins in the north and still many Brahmin families continue to be identified under 'Gaur' group.

	(2) ‘Pancha-Dravida’, i.e., five main sub-groups of Brahmins originating from the earlier mentioned “Dravida’ sub-group. These sub-groups seem to be reckon with regional languages.
	*]
	*]
	*]
	*]
	*]

	But the parting away of Brahmin families from their parent sub-group (Sub-groups under Pancha-Gaur and Panch-Dravida) continued and the process generated scores of sub-castes mainly on the possible grounds:

	(1) Since Vedic times, most Brahmins had been leading simple and ascetic lives. Thus their sustenance of livelihood and intellectual pursuits depended mainly on contributions or help provided by the kings, big landlords etc. That’s why, they had much mobility also. But some Brahmin families remained confined to smaller geographical locations because they might have availed the financial assistance for long time at those places. In some cases, their locational existence confined to even a couple of districts. Such Brahmins, however, originally belonging to a particular parent sub-group, might have thought of identifying themselves separately from the other members of the parent sub-group.

	(2) Some Brahmin families moved to totally different geographical area from the bounds of their parent sub-group and accordingly might have classified themselves separately from the other members of the parent sub-group.

	(3) Many lines of descent from the root rishis were grouped separately. Accordingly, the root gotras were divided into ganas (subdivisions) and each gana was further divided into group of some families, known as sub-gana. Since then the term gotra have frequently been applied to the ganas and sub-ganas.. Some Brahmin families, having ganas and sub-ganas as their gotras stemming only from one root rishi, might have classified themselves separately from the other members of the parent sub-group.

	(4) Some Brahmins families paid their adherence mainly to only one God, say, Shiva or Vishnu. So such families might have thought of identifying themselves separately from the other members of the parent sub-group.
	----
	--] 07:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


	About the division:

	karNaaTakaashcha tailaMgaa draaviDaa mahaaraashhTrakaaH,
	gurjaraashcheti pa~nchaiva draaviDaa vindhyadakshiNe \|\|
	saarasvataaH kaanyakubjaa gauDaa utkalamaithilaaH,
	panchagauDaa iti khyaataa vindhsyottaravaasinaH \|\|

	Definition of Gauda:

	brahmakshetraM guDaaraNyaM matsyapaa~nchaalamaathuraaH
	eshha brahmarshhi desho vai brahmaavarta samambaram.h \|\|
	brahmakshetraM kurukshetraM brahmadeshaH prakathyate
	aadigaudarshhideshaantaM haryaaraNyamihochyate \|\|

	--] 23:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

	==Badly written article==
	The article appears to be politically motivated.It is provocative. It will spread hatred among various communities. It has bad spellings (iit) and it appears to be of chat quality. Looks like wikipedia accepts all kind of matter for & from brahmins w/o checking. In spite of having three brahmin Prime ministers (Nehru, Indira gandhi, A.B. Vajpayee) and many many brahmin chief ministers & many brahmin bureaucrats it is a paradox that it is written here that they are suffering. Misplaced Pages plz get ur act right make it factual & NPOV. Adv. Dont allow brahmins to edit this article. --] 07:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 14:21, 19 November 2024

Skip to table of contents

The use of the contentious topics procedure has been authorised by the community for pages related to South Asian social groups, including this page. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Brahmin article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4Auto-archiving period: 3 months

This page was proposed for deletion by Ankush 89 (talk · contribs) on 10 April 2015 with the comment:
This article does not meet Misplaced Pages Quality Standards and is just favoured and biased as an attempt to promote the fame of this caste
It was contested by Gene93k (talk · contribs) on 10 April 2015 with the comment:
Deletion is too controversial for PROD. Requires discussion at AfD.

Brahmin received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This

level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

India High‑importance

	India portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article was last assessed in September 2024.

Hinduism Top‑importance

	Hinduism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hinduism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HinduismWikipedia:WikiProject HinduismTemplate:WikiProject HinduismHinduism
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Indian caste system Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indian caste system, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Caste system in India, DBA experiences, narratives and movements on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Indian caste systemWikipedia:WikiProject Indian caste systemTemplate:WikiProject Indian caste systemIndian caste system

Top

This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.

WikiProject Indian caste system to do list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Citing sources : Poona Pact needs secondary sources
Collaborate : Media and caste to look like Media and gender
Expand : Annihilation of Caste

Sociology Mid‑importance

	Society portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Ethnic groups Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Guild of Copy Editors

This article was copy edited by Jack Greenmaven, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on May 10, 2012.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors

This topic is in need of attention from an expert on the subject.The section or sections that need attention may be noted in a message below.

Genetic heredity

The article as it stands reads as if there is no basis to the brahmins as an endogamous caste group, which is clearly nonsense. All genetic analyses show that brahmins show significantly more proximity to each other than to regional and other caste groups. The article ought to be revised to reflect this point. If a Tamil brahmin is closer to a Punjabi brahmin than a Punjabi brahmin is to a Punjabi khatri, then this clearly shows that brahmins are a genetic endogamous group and that the history of India reflects that brahmins had a hereditary status and were held separate from people who merely learned or practised some portion of a religious praxis, or held allegiance to a religious corpus. Indeed, genetic tests connnect brahmins together and give the lie to the claim that being a brahmin was merely a vocational choice within the framework of Indian culture. The article is misleading and seems to imply that there is no such thing as an inherited brahmin caste genetic heritage, when this is demonstrably false. Zubedar (talk) 00:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Please note that we don't mention genetics in caste articles as per WP:CONSENSUS! Ekdalian (talk) 05:51, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

"Khandal" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Khandal has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 17 § Khandal until a consensus is reached. Paradoctor (talk) 20:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 August 2024 , remove 'of gujrat' because source doesn't mentions it

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change

'Origin and History'

It seems likely that Kannauj and Middle country was the place of origin of majority of migrating Brahmins throughout the medieval centuries. Coming from Kannauj is a frequent claim among Brahmins of Gujrat in areas distant from Madhyadesha or Ganges heartland.

'Origin and history'

It seems likely that Kanyakubja and Middle country was the place of origin of majority of migrating Brahmins throughout the medieval centuries. Coming from Kannauj is a frequent claim among Brahmins in areas distant from Madhyadesha or Ganges heartland. 2409:4089:BE4D:50A2:0:0:2D4B:6C00 (talk) 13:40, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Not done: Kanyakubja redirects to Kannauj anyways, and also please provide a reason for removing Brahmins of Gujrat Bunnypranav (talk) 09:39, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 October 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Branhminism has been used to oppress people from other caste group. 116.75.98.65 (talk) 16:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Bowler the Carmine | talk 17:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Categories: