User talk:Der alte Hexenmeister: Difference between revisions

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	== Welcome, but please don't vandalize Misplaced Pages ==

	] Welcome to Misplaced Pages. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the ] if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits are considered ], and if you continue in this manner you may be '''] from editing without further warning'''. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the hard work of others. Thank you. <!-- Template:Blatantvandal (serious warning) -->

	More to the point, your edits of ], ] and ] have been reverted. The reasons are
	# Commentary should not be placed into articles. Instead, there are discussion pages for this kind of stuff. Please see ] for an example. (That page can also be reached by clicking on the "Discussion" tab of ].)
	# Einstein did not realize until 1911 that the perceived speed of light at distant positions was affected by gravitational fields. As a result, Einstien had to differentiate between the special principle of relativity (limiting the principal to inertial frames of reference) where it held good, and the general principle of relativity which he used as one of the underpinnings of ].
	Do be aware that you are actually far from being blocked since you are new to this medium and trying to find your way around. We are willing to listen to your concerns, but said concerns have to be expressed properly, and there has to be respect for the subject of any article that you edit. Thank you. --] \| ] 02:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

	:The truth is it is supposed to be Einstein's relativity, not Schaefer's relativity.
	:Commentary such as "inertial" should not be placed into articles. Instead, there are discussion pages for this kind of "stuff", whatever "stuff" is.
	:It is not the policy of Wackypedia for you to publish your personal theories.
	:Go ahead, Schaefer, practice your threat of censorship, continue to blantantly vandalize Einstein's paper, physics and astronomy. I consider you to be disingenuous.
	:---{{user\|Der alte Hexenmeister}} 13:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Der alte Hexenmeister.

	== Manners ==

	First of all, hello. Second of all, please don't go around making inflammatory accusations of prejudice (which is what you did on my talk page) until you have more information about the person whom you accuse of being prejudiced. Thirdly, I'm not even sure what you were accusing me of being prejudiced for or against - was it the "Hillman-Schaefer Relativity Theory" (lol) that you referred to ? Fourthly, if you have studied Einstein's theory of relativity, you'll realise the importance of inertial frames in special relativity. Fifthly, I'm surprised that someone who claims to truly understand that 1905 paper you referred to would express their point of view in such a garbled and incoherent manner on my talk page. Sixthly, the 3 of us (and more) are academics with PhD's (not, as you said on my talk page, "prejudiced bigots") and if you are willing to engage in more rational, tempered discussions about your concerns, then we will be happy to comply. Misplaced Pages is a good place to discuss issues that we disagree over. ] ] 22:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

	:{{user\|Der alte Hexenmeister}} (Androcles/Hexenmeister, I presume): be aware that there are behavioral standards here at WP, unlike UseNet, so you should probably take the time to read ]-] and other ]. TIA ---] 03:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

	:BTW, regarding your first two edits at WP:
	:# is considered vandalism since this kind of comment should go to ], not the article itself. Also, a comment like ''"The principle editors do not appear to understand subject and predicate"'' violates ] and if repeated would violate ].
	:#In writing ''"one of the fatal flaws of special relativity is that it is derived from the ridiculous premise"'' etc. violates ]-]-] and is also just plain wrong.
	:This is not a good start, but the Misplaced Pages community will cut you some slack as a newbie. However, please try to learn, and in future please try to obey, our rules for behavior while you are using this website. TIA ---] 04:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

	== Androcles? ==

	''] left a comment which orginally read as follows:''

	If you are Androcles, then a fond hello. Long time, no exchanges.

	I must admit to being complimented by your calling the current interpretation of ] the "Hillman-''Schaefer''" theory. However, you are mistaken on a number of points. Perhaps to most severe one is that Einstein does not reference inertial motion in 1905. In fact he does, with the phrase "uniform translatory motion". You will find it in the restatement of the postulates of SR in §2. (So it seems that I need to eat my remark about Einstein not realizing this restriction until 1911.)

	I have no wish to argue more with you. Let us just say that any edits favoring your viewpoint will be reverted as inappropriate. As for why, I would refer you to ]. Beyond that, I stand by the warning I gave you at first, and which is still at the top of this page.

	--] \| ] 13:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

	''Androcles/Hexenmeister thereupon intercalated his answers as follows (mildly reformatted by ] for readability):''

	EMS: If you are Androcles, then a fond hello. Long time, no exchanges.

	:A: I have no fondness for you, Schaefer.

	EMS: I must admit to being complimented by your calling the current interpretation of ] the "Hillman-''Schaefer''" theory.

	:A: It's not a compliment, your distortion of Einstein's paper is vandalism.

	EMS: However, you are mistaken on a number of points. Perhaps to most severe one is that Einstein does not reference inertial motion in 1905. In fact he does, with the phrase "uniform translatory motion".

	:A: WRONG!

	:"If we assume that the result proved for a polygonal line is also valid for a continuously curved line, we arrive at this result: If one of two synchronous clocks at A is moved in a closed curve with constant velocity until it returns to A, the journey lasting t seconds, then by the clock which has remained at rest the travelled clock on its arrival at A will be second slow. Thence we conclude that a balance-clock at the equator must go more slowly, by a very small amount, than a precisely similar clock situated at one of the poles under otherwise identical conditions." - Einstein.
	:Take out "inertial", Schaefer, and restore Einstein's relativity AS IT IS WRITTEN !

	EMS: You will find it in the restatement of the postulates of SR in §2. (So it seems that I need to eat my remark about Einstein not realizing this restriction until 1911.)

	:A: I'm not interested in your remarks or your commentary.
	:You should censor Sagnac too.
	: http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Sagnac/Sagnac.htm

	EMS: I have no wish to argue more with you.

	:A: Of course you don't, you'd lose.

	EMS: Let us just say that any edits favoring your viewpoint will be reverted as inappropriate.

	:A: But it's ok if they favour your viewpoint, right? Censorship will always prevail, to the detriment of Wackypedia.

	EMS: As for why, I would refer you to ]. Beyond that, I stand by the warning I gave you at first, and which is still at the top of this page. --] \| ] 13:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

	:A: You can shove it, Schaefer, you are dishonest.
	:Take out all reference to "inertial" and prejudicial commentary such as "One of the strengths", "The laws of physics are the same in any inertial frame of reference" (the laws of physics apply to all frames of reference), "The speed of light in a vacuum is constant (specifically, 299,792,458 meters per second). " since that speed is not mentioned in Einstein's paper, it is 2AB/(t'A-tA)= c, the light goes from A to A in time t'A-tA and is 0/0, confirmed by

	:"an observer approaching a source of light with the velocity c, this source of light must appear of infinite intensity." - IFC Einstein

	:"Thence we conclude that a balance-clock at the equator must go more slowly, by a very small amount, than a precisely similar clock situated at one of the poles under otherwise identical conditions." - IFC Einstein

	:"the velocity of light in our theory plays the part, physically, of an infinitely great velocity."- IFC Einstein

	:http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img155.gif - IFC Einstein

	:These are all clues to division by zero and only the clueless would believe them.

	:The actual zero may be found in
	:"In agreement with experience we further assume the quantity http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img7.gif to be a universal constant--the velocity of light in empty space."

	:http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DominoEffect.GIF

	:All quotations are the exact words of First Class Idiot Einstein, from
	:http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/

	:--{{userblock\|Der alte Hexenmeister}} 13:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

	::Hexenmeister, please note that writing ''"You can shove it, Schaefer, you are dishonest"'' violates ] and ]. Please respect our rules for civil behavior while you are using this site. TIA ---] 05:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	::P.S. In general, it is best to put your comment immediately ''after'' the preceding comment. You can tab it using an initial colon before each paragraph. ---] 05:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	==Another exchange between EMS and Hexenmeister/Androcles==

	''] left a comment which orginally read as follows:''

	I think that a couple of quotes will help to describe things properly here.

	From ]:
	:''There is no evidence to support Einstein’s second postulate, for it is akin to claiming a straight rod will bend when immersed in water, we can see it does. Of course what really happens is light is refracted. The same is true for light from stellar sources. What we see is a distortion, not reality, when light from a moving source is passed by light from the same source emitted earlier.''

	Also from above:
	:''All quotations are the exact words of First Class Idiot Einstein''

	The implication is that you strongly disagree with relativity and instead subscribe to a Newtonian spacetime in which the speed of light is locally variable but a constant with respect to the emitter. That view was researched in the 19th century, and it was pointed out that the expected illusions are not seem. Distant stars as directly observed obey Newton's laws, with the only corrections needed being to account for the finite speed of light. That would not be the case under your model, and is one of the reasons for the development of relativity theory.

	As for your remarks in general: They are a total violation of ]. I understand that you are bitter about the treatment you get from people like me, but that is not going to change any minds. I can assure you that if you continue like this, you will be banned on that basis. (It takes some work to achieve that, but if you drive people up that wall enough it will be done.) I will admit that you are being censored. However, I am far from the only editor here. If I was out of line in my reversion, someone else would have undone it.

	BTW - I doubt that it is of any consolation to you, but I also have alternate ideas about relativity (as you may recall, and which I mention on ]). However, I have never tried to promote them in the article space because they amount to ] which I have yet to succeed in getting published, and which in any case has not become a part of the general human knowledge which Misplaced Pages documents. Let's just say that I am comfortable with the "]" policy, and am happy to document Einstein's work as it is currently understood.

	Looking above, I see that you need to learn how to edit pages. Items:
	# Indentation is created by starting a line with a colon. The more colons, the more it is indented.
	# Numbering is done by starting a line with a # sign.
	#* (Additional format character after the # sign indicates a continuation of the item, and permit the main numbering to continue unimpaired.)
	# An * at the start of a line indicates a bulleted item
	# A space at the start of a line indicates displayed text (in a shaded box).

	For example, the above was written as
	: <nowiki># Indentation is created by starting a line with a colon. The more colons, the more it is indented.</nowiki>
	: <nowiki># Numbering is done by starting a line with a # sign.</nowiki>
	: <nowiki>#* (Additional format character after the # sign indicates a continuation of the item, and permit the main numbering to continue unimpaired.)</nowiki>
	: <nowiki># An * at the start of a line indicates a bulleted item</nowiki>
	: <nowiki># A space at the start of a line indicates displayed text (in a shaded box).</nowiki>
	You seem to have been trying to obtain indentation using the display technique, and the result speaks for itself. --] \| ] 15:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

	P.S. You may have a point about the use of the word "inertial". "Uniform translatory motion" is actually a superset of intertial motion. Indeed, SR is good in any accelerated frame of reference with extends over a small enough volume such that the effects of gravitational time dilation and the like are miniscule. --] \| ] 15:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

	''Androcles/Hexenmeister then intercalated his comments as follows, while removing (possibly unintentionally much of what EMS wrote):''

	EMS: I think that a couple of quotes will help to describe things properly here.

	:A: Im not interested in what you think, Schaefer. Einstein wrote a paper
	(fact) and you have misrepresented his words in this online attempt at an encyclopedia by placing your personal slant upon it, as I have explained.

	EMS: I would refer you to ].

	:A: You are a vandal, Schaefer. My personal view of relativity is none of your business.
	All articles written about yourself, your friends, your company, their business partners or products, or as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, will be deleted without further notice in accordance with our speedy deletion policies.
	That includes your enemies, Schaefer, and I am certainly one of them.

	:A: Misplaced Pages:Contact us/Top questions

	< Misplaced Pages:Contact us
	Jump to: navigation, search

	:A: I've been told I've vandalized an article, but I have not
	If you think the message was intended for you, but you haven't vandalized an article, it's possible that you may have made an edit that isn't actually vandalism, but might not have fit Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. (See these two pages for more information.) In particular, pay attention to the neutral point of view policy.

	:A:I want to see your neutral point of view, Schaefer. You are dishonest.

	:] 22:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

	::Androcles/Hexenmeister, please see ]-]. Note that if you keep violating these policies you can be ] from using the WP. Please try to be polite in future. TIA---] 05:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	:"P.S. In general, in WP talk pages it is not considered good form to delete another user's comment, ''unless'' it contains ] as that term is ''commonly understood''. There are ways to archive old comments if this page fills up, which I am sure helpful ]s can tell you about. ---] 05:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	See http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution


			The facts of the original disagreement have been kindly archived by Schaefer.
	----		----
			== Einstein's theory of relativity. ==

			At this time there is some controversy concerning Relativity as Einstein
			wrote it.

			For clarification refer to:
	--Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it.--

			: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
	Schaefer reverted my edit.
			which is the original paper translated into English and these following links:

			: http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DominoEffect.GIF
	Einstein wrote:
			: http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Rocket/Rocket.htm
	-- we establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to A.
			: http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Smart/Smart.htm

			The viewpoints expressed on those pages are my own and are not of a neutral point of view. It is encumbent upon others to present the facts as lucidly and as unambiguously as possible, with facts agreed by consensus. After all, facts cannot be ambiguous.
	If you and Schaefer can claim the strength is two postulates
			Persons/editors wishing to discuss the matter should do so on the appropriate page and not here.
	then I can claim the fatal flaw is the third postulate.

			] 14:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
	http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DominoEffect.GIF
	Give up your prejudices, Hillman, put it right!

	Oh, and be polite, give me a rotating gold star gif for my efforts.

	] 08:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	:At Misplaced Pages, this kind of sarcasm is not considered to be ].


	Also, please note that your recent edit to ] put a signed comment in the article itself, which as I already mentioned, is not how things are done here. Comments should indeed be signed, but they go in the talk page.

	:You wrote ''"If you and Schaefer can claim the strength is two postulates then I can claim the fatal flaw is the third postulate"'' but I don't know what you are referring to.---] 13:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	I don't claim to nice, Hillman, so that comment is non-sequitur.
	Jowr is not nice, Hillman is not nice, Schaefer is not nice.

	Einstein's third postulate is
	: the time required by light to travel from A to B equals the time it requires to travel from B to A.
	You don't know what I'm am referring to because Schaefer arrogantly
	reverted my edit and adopted a bullying technique instead of
	making the appropriate correction, but nevertheless neither one of you
	are representing Einstein's paper with a neutral point of view, you are both prejudiced and imagine that a constant velocity is one that reverses direction. The public has the right to know the truth, Wiki has Hillman - Schaefer relativity, not Einstein's relativity.

	] 20:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	: I think that a response (now deleted) from ] (the article, not the talk page, which is the reason for the deletion) will speak to the issue here:
	:: ''This article does however represent the point of view af the overwhelming majority of academic, professional and industrial users, teachers, and scholars of the subject the world over.'' --]
	: That is the POV an article must represent here. --] \| ] 22:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	== Please stop. ==

	Androcles, your behavior on sci.physics and sci.physics.relativity is reprehensible by itself. Don't pollute Misplaced Pages by bringing your incredibly vile and useless attitude here too. People have been explaining relativity to you for many years. It isn't their fault you do not understand, it is yours.

	For everyone else, Androcles is a regular poster on the USENET groups sci.physics and sci.physics.relativity who has some severe personal issues with relativity. Specifically, he doesn't understand it.

	I can't stop him from spewing his bile into USENET, but I can stop him here.

	Please visit http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/ImmortalFumbles.html to see examples of Androcles in action.

	] 21:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

	:Personal bile from you is as water off a duck's back to me.
	:Go away, moron.

	:---{{unsigned\|Der alte Hexenmeister}}

	::Hexenmesiter, please ]. Also, please note that namecalling violates ] and that you can be ] for violations of WP policies.---] 05:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	Hillman, please
	Also please note that 'by bringing your incredibly vile and useless attitude here' written by Jowr is offensive and that Jowr can be banned ] for violations of WP policies.



	J. Sorry Androcles.

	A. Thank you, you should be.


	J. I am not going anywhere.

	A. Then behave yourself, you can be banned ] for violations of WP policies.


	J. You can killfile me on USENET but you cannot ignore me here.

	A. I can ignore you anywhere I choose to ignore you.


	J. If you want help understanding relativity, myself and many others would be glad to help. We are also just as glad to help you realise you are not welcome here if you decide you aren't going to be nice. We would also be glad to help you learn how to edit in Misplaced Pages.

	] 23:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


	How kind of you.
	If you want help in understanding relativity, I'm glad to help. Please refer to
	http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Smart/Smart.htm
	] 08:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

	] 21:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
	----		----
	Your page contains many factual and conceptual errors, not to mention unsupported opinions and libel.

			== You're welcome ==
	You make multiple mentions of c being defined as 0/0 by making the assumption there is no distance traveled, while working with several examples where the distance traveled is nonzero.

			Androcles -
	Also, your understanding of the mathematical definition of linearity is also deficient. Linearity does not mean the output of a function is linear, it means the function itself is linear in the terms mentioned. For example, the transformation equations are linear in space and time 'as Einstein demanded'.

			I did the archiving for two reasons:
	Furthermore, your graph of the function isn't actually a graph of the function - it is just some garbage you are pretending is a graph of the function.
			# That is the proper way of clearing out a talk page. (Under Misplaced Pages guidelines discussion should never be removed except to archive it.)
			# It keeps others from reverting this page against your wishes.

			If I may make a suggestion: You may want to move (or copy) the above business on Einstein's theory to your user page. Just
	Finally, you openly wonder why the transformation equations don't depend on the y and z coordinates. The reason they don't is because movement has been confined to one coordinate axis (x) and there is no movement, and thus no required transformations, in the y and z directions.
			# hit the "edit this page" tab,
			# select the section and do a Ctrl/C (to copy it),
			# hit the red "user page" tab,
			# paste the section into the edit window that you will get, and
			# save it.
			This will place your concerns on your "front door", making them more prominent, and keeping them from getting lost in the clutter here. --] \| ] 15:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

			== User and talk pages ==
	I don't expect this to help much because all this has been told to you many times since you put your webpage up as a display of your.... intelligence. I could go through the rest of your website if you wish, there is a similar amount of problems on pretty much every page.

			Please don't leave comments on peoples userpages. Use their talk pages instead. Edits like this will get you a block if repeated ] 19:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
	] 21:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

			That's ok, User: Connolley (Admin). You go ahead and do whatever you wish. Your threat of excommunication has no effect upon me, history has adequate precedent of tyranny, censorship and blatant bullying. Unlike Galileo, I do not fear you or the Pope, Pontius Pilate, Herod, Ceaser, Hitler, Saddam Hussein or any of your ilk.
	== Second warning ==

			You did not have the common courtesy of responding to my communique, reproduced below, and that adequately states my opinion of you. Schaefer is yet another bully and enemy of science. If it is the policy of wackypedia to ignore the voice of the heretic "even if he can prove" the LIES, then I want no part of wackypedia's religion.
	Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, as you did to ], you will be ] from editing Misplaced Pages. <!-- Template:Test3-n (Third level warning) --> --] \| ] 21:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

			Freedom of the press goes to those that own one, but you cannot own the internet. Excommunicate me from your clique as you will, I shall never be excommunicate from my fellow man.
	== Final warning ==
			With this missive, I excommunicate you.

	] This is your '''last warning'''. The next time you vandalize a page, as you did to ], you ''will'' be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. <!-- Template:Test4-n (Fourth level warning) --> --] \| ] 02:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

			Copy of email sent to User:Connolley (Admin)

			> Connolley:
	You seem to be afraid of the truth, Cardinals Hillman and Schaefer, why is that?
			>
			> Check the FACTS on the discussion page of
			> http://en.wikipedia.org/Theory_of_relativity
			> where the prats Price and Schaefer are "pratting around" (your terminology).
			>
			> Price has inadvertently admitted his error:
			> "When you learn the difference between a lie and a mistake" -- Price.
			>
			> Schaefer expressly admits to being an honest prat:
			> "To be honest with you, we are both having some fun with you."
			> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Der_alte_Hexenmeister
			>
			> I can quote my sources, Connolley.
			>
			> You claim to be a mathematician. A mathematician would recognise
			> that a constant velocity isn't a reversal of direction.
			> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DominoEffect.GIF
			> That's my non-neutral PoV, which I can state openly on my own page.
			> My neutral PoV is different. Light travels from A to A in time t'A-tA = 0/0
			> in Einstein's relativity.
			>
			>
			> "I've blocked you for 24h for 3rr / disruption. Please try to contribute
			> productively William M. Connolley 07:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC) " -- Connolley.
			>
			> Please try to be neutral and learn what "productive" means. I'm not trying to
			> rewrite
			> relativity in wikipedia, I can make my own comments on my own web page, and I
			> do.
			> But some prats are liars, maliciously misleading the public, having fun,
			> either through ignorance or stupidity.
			>
			> Do you see a contradiction between these two statements, Connolley?
			> "These two postulates suffice for the attainment of a simple and consistent
			> theory "--Einstein,
			> reference : http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
			> "This is the strength of special relativity, that it can be derived from such
			> a single, basic principle" -- wackypedia, reference:
			> http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Theory_of_relativity
			>
			> Wackypedia COULD be a useful vehicle for the dissemination of knowledge, but
			> not if it contains LIES.
			>
			> I do not believe you to be impartial.
			> "Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Acton.
			> Are you a mathematician, Connolley? I have my doubts. I think you more
			> concerned with political correctness than truth. In short, you are (in your
			> own words) pratting around.
			>
			>
			> Der alte Hexenmeister ist:
			> Sorcerer Androcles Dumbledore, Headmaster, hogwarts.physics
			> school for zauberlehrlings.
			> "One muggle's magic is another sorcerer's engineering"
			>
			> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
			>

	C'mon, Cardinals of the Holey Church of Relativity, explain to the world how your little tin god Einstein's religion works without the third premise:
	:the time required by light to travel from A to B equals the time it requires to travel from B to A, even if A and B are in relative motion.


			"Capital Punishment, a penalty regarding the justice and expediency of which many worthy persons -- including all the assassins -- entertain grave misgivings." -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
	You can't, can you?
	You are corrupt, evil, vandals of science, both of you.
	I've written to the board of trustees requesting that you both be blocked.
	] 07:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

	: LOL! That is a beauty! Never mind that Einstein established ''t<sub>AB</sub>'' = ''t<sub>BA</sub>'' as being for the ''stationary'' system, I gather. Never mind that in §2 of that Einstein noted that when A and B are moving that those times actually do differ. In fact, their differing sets up something called the ], which is highly non-intuitive and yet is that thing that makes relativity self-consistent. (Without it, time dilation and length contraction being present for the "moving" frame of reference no matter which frame is the moving one would result in a self-contradiction.)
	: As for your ''claim'' of having contacted the board of trustees: show that you have not posted any such request on a trustee's talk page. More importantly, noone has contacted me regarding any such request, nor do I have any good reason to expect such a thing. (''If'' you have really contacted them, I would assume that you have used the same language that you have used here. In that case, they would not touch your request with a 10-foot pole.)
	: Beyond that, I stand by this warning. Vandalize again, and I will initiate a ] against you. (Yes. I know that you believe this "third postulate" business and that Copernicus came up with the principle of relativity, but noone else does. Forcing that POV on the relativity pages is therefore ]. Look at it this way: What really is right is not important in Misplaced Pages. Instead, what is important is that which is generally known or believed to be right. Significant minority opinions also are legitimately noted here. However, it has been some time since the opposition to relativity theory has even amounted to a significant minority.) --] \| ] 16:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


	I don't care what you gather, Schaefer, I'm not going to discuss relativity
	with a vandalizing bigot, I seek neutrality.
	:The issue is that you have non-neutral point of view and pigheadedly refuse
	to allow a factual and neutral POV edit.
	:The email to the board of trustees has been sent, so prattle all you want.
	: Oh... and I almost forgot ... LOL.

	] 20:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

	:: As best I can tell, the only POV that you will admit as "neutral" is your own. In any case, your changing a template is an escalation in the conflict. So kindly excuse me while I make good on a threat. --] \| ] 21:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

	----
	:As best as YOU can tell, what YOU gather...
	: You didn't answer my question, Schaefer. I'll repeat it.

	:C'mon, Cardinals of the Holey Church of Relativity, explain to the world how your little tin god Einstein's religion works without the third premise:
	:the time required by light to travel from A to B equals the time it requires to travel from B to A, even if A and B are in relative motion.

	:You accept the third premise despite your bullshit there are only two, yet from what YOU gather it is not important, yet in FACT it is vital and central to Einstein's paper,


			May your god go with you (and rot).
	But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured in the stationary system, with the velocity c-v, so that



	] 00:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	----

	I guess I don't have to do anything.

	This is fun as hell to watch, though. Androcles attempts to steamroll his opinions here and gets flattened in response.

	]

	----

	You do not seem very sorry, even though you lied that you were.
	] 00:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	----

	You should seek treatment for your anger issues. Both Misplaced Pages and USENET are a poor substitute for counseling.

	As I said, I would help you learn relativity. I started - again - by correcting some of the errors on your webpage which you have not even bothered to comment on.

	] 00:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
	----
	Just remember the issue here is Hillman's and Schaefer's refusal to include
	Einstein's time postulate, central to his crackpottery, they are vandals.


	You should seek education for your mathematics issues, nobody in their right mind would consider a constant velocity as one that changes direction.
	:

	But anyway, when one teaches, two learn. Go ahead, tell me were I went wrong
	on these pages, O great arrogant teacher:
	:
	:
	(I'll improve the gif when I have time, upload it to Wiki. I like the quality of


	] 10:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
	----



	: Why bother with that offer? I just responded to his claims, which he rebuffed by saying "I'm not going to discuss relativity with ". Then he repeated his challenge as if the response and his conter-response had never occurred. IMO, I have established what kind of person we are dealing with here. Now it is time to move on to the RfC noted below. You endorsement of it would be appreciated. --] \| ] 01:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	----

	Because if he actually learns relativity he will stop bothering the folks on USENET with his foul and useless attitude. One less crank on sci.physics/sci.physics.relativity is great. What happens here is largely irrelevant because he will be shut out because I doubt he can control himself.

	It is worth a shot, I suppose. shrug

	] 01:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	: Look, I am something of an anti-relativist myself, in that I do believe in ]s and therefore believe that ] is not entirely correct. What I have come to realize is that the "anti-" must convince themself of it when they are wrong. Part of that is a willingness to accept being wrong. Unfortunately, when you come into a forum thinking that you have a wonderful insight here, it is higly embittering to be told that you are wrong, and most people become very defensive in reponse. I did that myself at first 11 years ago. Somehow, I caught myself starting to act like Androcles and immediately decided that I would not be like that. That is why I can do edits on the ] pages that people like ] can accept while at the same time trying to publish my own theory of spacetime.
	: Androcles is off in this own world, rejecting those who have rejected him. He first needs to see the foolishness of his attitude before we can realistically begin to help him understand relativity. So his real challenge is not in understanding relativity, but in understanding himself. I assure you that I have tried to talk to people like Androcles about that, but unfortunately they see it as another way of telling them that they are "all wrong", and even though I am trying to be helpful it still follows that you cannot tell anyone how improve without implicitly telling them that they have it wrong in the first place.
	: Look again at Androcles' "third premise":
	:: ''the time required by light to travel from A to B equals the time it requires to travel from B to A, even if A and B are in relative motion.''
	: We both know that Einstein did not claim that for a signal passing between A and B with the AB system is motion, but Androcles will defend his self-image by selectively quoting Einstein to make it appear that he did claim that. So we have no choice but to defend ourself and to defend Misplaced Pages by opposing him. So I'm sorry but it is not going to be that easy to change this person from being an anti-relativist. --] \| ] 02:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	----
	It will be impossible, Schaefer, for Sagnac proves Einstein was wrong.

	:

	:However, the issue here is your blind arrogance and refusal to include the third premise.
	:The first premise is self-referential, it includes the words
	"relative velocity" in the third sentence, and all that vague waffle about the laws of physics doesn't say what the laws of physics are.
	:The second premise is said to be "apparently irreconcilable" with the first, but 15 years later the simpleton has to write a chapter to explain himself, with appeals to schoolchildren.
	:
	Note that the simpleton doesn't even discuss relative motion, claiming his second postulate is a simple law. Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler, t = x'/(c-v) measured in the stationary system, and c-v is not c measured in the stationary system. Hence the simpleton is self-contradictory
	and there is no way you, Hillman or any moron will ever convince a rational person to accept your religious beliefs.
	] 10:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
	----


	== Sagnac ==


	"Despite the ease and clarity with which special relativity accounts for the Sagnac effect, one occasionally sees claims that this effect entails a conflict with the principles of special relativity. The usual claim is that the Sagnac effect somehow falsifies the invariance of light speed with respect to all inertial coordinate systems. Of course, it does no such thing, as is obvious from the fact that the simple description of an arbitrary Sagnac device given above is based on isotropic light speed with respect to one particular system of inertial coordinates, and all other inertial coordinate systems are related to this one by Lorentz transformations, which are defined as the transformations that preserve light speed."...

	Sagnac does not say what you think it says, DaH...
	--Desdinova 12:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	----
	Sagnac works with light guides too.

	The velocity of light in a fibre optic cable is independent of the motion of the source, but for the external observer the velocity of the cable is added. The source has the same velocity. In a Sagnac interferometer the source is in motion, for if you deny it, Sagnac is reduced to a simple Michelson interferometer, which is against the supposition of motion and the empirical evidence, the fringe shifts (aka beat frequency).

	This is an example of the principle of relativity:



	Note that the bottle moves from left hand to right and back again, taking twice as long in one direction as it does in the other.

	This is Sagnac modelled using a ball as a photon:


	Note that the ball curves in one frame of reference but runs straight in the other. Remember, the laws of physics are the same in all frames of reference, Einstein said so, and he did not include "inertial", either.

	Sagnac does what I say it does and not what your web page author think it does or you think it does. Here are three quotations to support my contention, in reverse chronological order.

	: 1) "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler" -- IFC Einstein.

	: 2) "RULES OF REASONING IN PHILOSOPHY.

	RULE I.
	We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances.

	To this purpose the philosophers say that Nature does nothing in vain, and more is in vain when less will serve; for Nature is pleased with simplicity, and affects not the pomp of superfluous causes." - Sir Isaac Newton - "Principia".

	: 3) "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" -- William of Ockham.
	You may know it as Ockham's Razor. It is quite sharp, don't cut yourself.:-)

	As for inertial frames of reference, there are none to be found in Nature, Einstein did not use the word "inertial". Georges Sagnac was an experimental physicist who constructed an experiment while Einstein was writing his general theory of crackpottery (which Shaefer is trying to put a dent in, LOL) with his feet up on this table, playing his violin and munching his bowl of fruit. After all, what else does a huckster need to be happy? All successful hucksters are Mr. Nice Guy, or they'd fail in their profession.

	] 23:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
	----

	== RfC Initiated ==

	See ]. Note that is may behoove you to respond ''politely'' to this. --] \| ] 01:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	:Hexenmeister: since some of your previous edits have been badly formatted (enough to make it hard to tell who said what), if you add your comment at the ''bottom'' of ]. I will figure out where it belongs and move it to the proper place on ]. Please be polite at times while using WP, since your behavior here will be judged in part upon your willingness to contribute in a ] manner.

	:I see from one of your comments that you wish to propose that Ed and I be "banned" from editing the WP. Please see also ] for a summary of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution procedures. Please note that a ] (RfC) is a typical (and mild) dispute resolution procedure. In contrast, ] is a much more extreme measure which would ''not'' be warranted according to WP customs regarding Ed or myself. ] is the most extreme measure, and is quite rare. Please note that ] suggests ways of avoiding escalation of a dispute. ---] 06:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	::I have no objections to anyone correcting my formatting.
	I do object to Hillman and Schaefer arrogantly refusing to include Einstein's third premise, the time postulate (which is central to relativity), and lying that there are only two premises. NPOV should be adhered to, liars should be blocked. Lying is vandalism, Schaefer and Hillman are vandals and liars. I call for them to be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages if they will not correct there non-neutral point of view.
	::] 10:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	:Hexenmeister, thank you for promptly replying in the RfC. I see you found the right section to put your comment in; good. However, please note that
	:#''"Schaefer and Hillman are vandals and liars"'' and ''"Gisse doesnt count, he's never read the paper and wouldn't understand it if he did"'' appear to violate ].
	:#''"He is actually a victim of the malicious lies such people as Hillman and Schaefer spread"'' appears to violate ]-].
	:#Referring (I think) to Gisse: ''"I was nasty to the little darling after he said he was sorry and then retracted it. How naughty of me."'' Your sarcasm tends to violate ]. As for the comment which you objected to, I already asked him not to do that anymore, which he has agreed to, and it seems he also apologized directly to you for this comment. Why not simply accept his apology? I think you will find that if you are nice and play fair, others here will be nice/fair in return.
	:---] 14:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	:I've crossed swords with snipper Gisse before, his apology was sarcastic and disingenuous. As I understand it, he is planning to take a math course, which is about time too. Your opinions and fake politeness mean nothing to me, nor does your sarcastic comment "I see you found the right section to put your comment in; good." which tends to violate ]. Hillman, an RfC has been initiated, battle has commenced. Your options are to allow factual edits and call a truce or come under fire. We will never be friendly, but in the interests of Misplaced Pages and the public I'll tolerate you. Now quit whining.
	] 19:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

	----

	I came because of the vandalism but I stayed for the show.

	] 22:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
	----
	Notice that Hillman's whining gripes are now all of a personal nature, he's bitching about sarcasm and combativeness. He hasn't found fault with my edits to the page so there was no need for this talk, and he's as guilty of arrogant combativeness and sarcasm as any relativist. Your partisanship doesn't get you any brownie points either.

	I'm not nice, Gisse, I never pretend to be, and I can be downright vicious.
	But I am honest, particularly when it comes to mathematics and physics. Hillman isn't nice but he puts up a false front. As for you, Hillman had to wipe your mouth out with soap and water, I'll give him credit for that. He wants to wipe his shoe clean of what he stepped in, but he should have looked where he was going in the first place. He's a fully paid up member of the Flat Earth Conspirators Executive Society (FECES), which you are attempting join.
	]
	If the cap fits, wear it.
	] 07:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
	----

	Gisse: No. You are not honest.

	Androcles:
	More serious examples (of incivility) include:

	: Taunting -- (Gisse, Schaefer, LOL comment)
	Personal attacks -- (Gisse, first comment)
	Racial, ethnic, and religious slurs
	Profanity directed at another contributor
	Lies -- (Schaefer, Gisse, Hillman)
	Defacing user pages
	Giving users derogatory names via Pagemove Trolling
	Calling for bans or blocks --(Schaefer)

	Ref: ]

	Misplaced Pages calls lies "lies". So do I.


	Gisse: I can produce any number of examples where you have been wrong on basic mathematics and logic while being unwilling to admit it.

	Androcles:
	Prove it.


	Gisse: I can also point out that you have failed to comment on my criticisms of your various webpages, on here and USENET.

	Androcles: "Failed to comment" - I plead guilty. I'm under no obligation to escalate a dispute, I'll escalate at my choosing and I can ignore you any time I wish.


	Gisse: In fact, you outright ignore them.

	Androcles: Yes, in fact I do. I shall continue to ignore them if I choose.

	Gisse: For example, on your energy square page you mix Newtonian and Relativistic dynamics together and act surprised that there is an inconsistency, while completely ignoring the comments that tell you that you can not do that.

	Androcles: Yes indeed. By your mislogic, Einstein must use his own mathematics, he is not permitted to use Newton's or Leibnitz's calculus, you cannot mix Newtonian mathematics with Relativistic mathematics. I happen to agree with you.
	When you've completed your Newtonian math course you can rewrite mathematics for relativity. Make it your life's work for all I care.



	Gisse: Hillman has done nothing but point out this is a place that actually has standards for conduct that are enforced.

	Androcles: Which you and Schaefer violated from the start. That's why Hillman slapped you. Hard.


	Gisse: I have adjusted as a result - you have not.

	Androcles: The record speaks for itself. You have just said I am not honest (now escalating with due forethought), you lying tord, you haven't adjusted. Apologise immediately or I shall make a direct request for you to be blocked. ]


	Gisse: By the way. I am a junior

	Androcles: Yes, we know. You have a lot to learn, boy, and the first thing you need to know is what a constant velocity is.

	In Newtonian physics it is c = AB/(tB-tA), in relativistic physics it is
	c = ABA/(t'A-tA) and the two cannot be mixed.

	End of discussion.
	] 08:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

	... studying mathematics and physics at the University of Alaska - Fairbanks. My main topic of interest is general relativity. My education extends beyond "just ''a'' math course".

	] 07:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

	: "Der Alte Hexenmesiter" wrote (and edited into this form)
	:: ''Gisse: I can also point out that you have failed to comment on my criticisms of your various webpages, on here and USENET.''

	:: ''Androcles: "Failed to comment" - I plead guilty. I'm under no obligation to escalate a dispute, I'll escalate at my choosing and I can ignore you any time I wish.''

	: I must admit to being a little perplexed by this exchange. As I parse it, it appears that Andreocles feels that dealing with the specific comments on his views will "escalate a dispute". Yet doing things like calling the person who just offerred you commentary a "vandalizing bigot" is a very poor way of avoiding an escallation.
	: Androcles - I can easily rewrite my response above to leave of the "LOL!" and the "I gather"s. The trouble with doing that is that I doubt that you would respond if I did. Besides, it is easy enough for you to ignore such wording if you are at all interested in a productive dialog. --] \| ] 15:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

	You've initiated an RfC against me, Schaefer. Get used to the idea, I am not your friend. I'm not about to assist you in your perplexities, parsings, seemings, gatherings, gleanings, guesses, gisses, feelings, sarcastic LOLs, general confusions or any other displays of your misunderstandings or lack of comprehension, as far as I am concerned you can remain as ignorant now as you were in 1999.
	Wed, Mar 17 1999 9:00 am.
	As I've already told you, shove it. Ask Gisse if you are perplexed and cannot gather where.
	I'm not getting into a discussion with an arrogant bigot on '''any''' subject using Misplaced Pages as a conveyance. If you wish to do battle with me one-on-one, whether relativity or flaming, USENET is available and I'll shred you there, I can exceed you in nastiness just as I can exceed you in anything else, incuding arrogance. After Gisse fails his Newtonian mathematics course and wastes his life writing his relativistic math he'll get a nice job as a janitor or burger flipper... on second thoughts burger flippers have to be nice to stay in work, janitors do not. Relativity is of no use at all, NASA-JPL are not hiring relativists.


	BTW, a sure indication of a moron's mentality is his ability to spell simple words such as "escalation" and "Androcles".
	That was a minor infringement of Misplaced Pages's civility code, so why not start another RfC and whine that I said you can't spell? But don't lie and say I called you a moron, because even if I consider you to be one, that is my personal opinion of you and I don't voice my personal opinions outside talk pages. It is morons in general that cannot spell and I did say "such as". See how polite I am?

	End of discussion.
	] 22:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
	----

	----

	Androcles, does this attitude get things done for you in real life?

	I'm retired, junior, I don't have to worry about it. You do.
	- have a whine, raise an RfC, I snipped you.

	----

	Since you removed all mention of it by removing most of my reply, I will put it back for others to see. Don't bother removing it again, I'll just put it back.

	http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/STM/Scoundrels.htm

	'''Hexenmeister put his webpage here himself to make it appear as if I said it because the previous link to http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/ImmortalFumbles.html makes him look bad.'''

	] 00:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

	:Hexenmeister wrote, addressing {{user\|Jowr}}: ''"That's why Hillman slapped you. Hard."'' For the record, I have never ''slapped'' anyone in my life. I ask again that all participants try to respect relevant Misplaced Pages policies, including ]-]. TIA ---] 04:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

	Ever the diplomat, aren't you, Hillman? You chewed him out for his disgraceful conduct. I call that "slapped" and he ran with his tail between his legs. Now he wants to whine that I did not address his ignorance. This is not the forum for discussion of relativity, he's had his chance on USENET and he blew it. I'll treat others as civilly as they treat me, and I bite back, only harder.

	I repeat, I have no objection to anybody correcting my formatting, but to blatantly lie about Einstein's paper is vandalism, and certainly contrary to WP policy.

	I have a suggestion for you, since you seem determined to appear fair. Why don't you check the facts and edit my version yourself? Feel free to format as necessary, as long as you adhere to facts I'll accept correction. I do not accept deletion. That's the best I can offer in resolving this petty issue.
	The third premise is central to SR, and Schaefer is '''lying''' when his says it is built on only two. When somebody lies, I call them a '''LIAR''', and ] does indeed refer to lies.
	] 11:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

	::Hexenmeister, you wrote ''"I'll treat others as civilly as they treat me"''. Well, that certainly has not been my experience on this talk page. Please try to tone down the unpleasant tone of your comments. Please note that Misplaced Pages tries to encourage civility. TIA ---] 20:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

	:We are under no obligation to respect your misunderstanding of Einstein's paper. In fact, since that is your view alone, we are under an onus (under ]) not to report it "''even if it is true, even if you can prove it''". However, your claim is not true for the following reasons:
	# ''t<sub>B</sub>'' - ''t<sub>A</sub>'' = ''t'''<sub>''A''</sub> - ''t<sub>B</sub>'' (for a light signal when ''A'' and ''B'' are stationary) can only exist in all frames of reference if the second postulate holds true. Therefore it is a ] and not a ].
	# It does not hold true when ''A'' and ''B'' are in "relative motion" with respect to each other, nor when ''A'' and ''B'' are in motion with respect to the observer. It only holds true in the "stationary" reference frame of an observer, meaning that ''A'' and ''B'' are not moving with respect to the observer.
	It is not fair to call you a liar since you actually believe the stuff that you are posting. However, you have been consistently opposed on these points for years by many, many other people. You should know better than to try to pawn it off here. ] a ]. "End of dicussion". --] \| ] 14:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

	I wasn't addressing you, Schaefer, so get off your soapboax.
	BTW, http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img22.gif
	Do you see the terms x'/(c+v), x'/(c-v) there, shithead?

	They don't exist, Einstein didn't write them, right?

	] 20:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

	: If you claim that someone lies, it is more than a little disingenuous to expect them not to respond. What are you afraid of? The real truth? BTW - That equation is Einstein's, and is one of the items that shows that your "third postulate" is misstated to begin with, and I described in item # 2 above. --] \| ] 21:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

	# ''t<sub>B</sub>'' - ''t<sub>A</sub>'' = ''t'''<sub>''A''</sub> - ''t<sub>B</sub>'' (for a light signal when ''A'' and ''B'' are stationary) can only exist in all frames of reference if the second postulate holds true.
	# ''t<sub>B</sub>'' - ''t<sub>A</sub>'' = ''x'/(c-v)''
	#''t'''<sub>''A''</sub> - ''t<sub>B</sub>'' = ''x'/(c+v)''

	Therefore Einstein's third premise is central to SR;
	SR is built upon more than two premises and you are a f * cking LIAR, placing your non-neutral point of view in place of the truth, shithead. Of course I expect you to respond, imbecile, you are an arrogant jerk who thinks he's holier than thou. Now I don't give a fat fart whether you call Einstein's third premise a ''definition'' and his first premise a ''postulate'' (it is in fact an axiom), but as you say, and I agree, the second ''hypothesis'' is baloney if ''t<sub>B</sub>'' - ''t<sub>A</sub>'' =/= ''t'''<sub>''A''</sub> - ''t<sub>B</sub>'' . F * ck the all frames of reference crap,
	he says (Section 3) quote: "But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured in the stationary system, with the velocity c-v..."

	Moreover, I have not mentioned any third postulate, I was careful and called it a premise, you '''lying''' shit.

	BUT!! I am not interested in teaching you SR, I'm interested in truthfully reporting Einstein's paper in Misplaced Pages and letting the public make up their own minds, which terrifies an arsehole like you. What are you afraid of? The real truth? I'll tell you the real truth. Einstein was too intelligent to be anything other than a huckster, he was way smarter than you'll ever be. He knew how to be Mr. Nice Guy, while he picked your pocket. His crap has cost the world millions, and you are part of the bullshit, trying to show how clever you are, but you are in fact stupid and a bigot. Now have another whine, tell me again I don't understand SR, you f * ckin' moron, carry on with your pissing contest. There haven't been too many responses to your RfC, have there, you agressive combative jerk? You are up against me now, do your worst.
	To echo the words of Newton, said of Ptolemy,

	This is the story of a scientific crime. ... I mean a crime committed by a scientist against fellow scientists and scholars, a betrayal of the ethics and integrity of his profession that has forever deprived mankind of fundamental information about an important area of astronomy and history.

	Einstein developed certain astronomical theories and discovered that they were not consistent with observation. Instead of abandoning the theories, he deliberately fabricated observations from the theories so that he could claim that the observations prove the validity of his theories. In every scientific or scholarly setting known, this practice is called fraud, and it is a crime against science and scholarship.

	You, Schaefer, are a liar and a fraud.

	] 01:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

	: Let's see: You claim that
	:: ''I have not mentioned any third postulate, I was careful and called it a premise''.
	: That is true, but if you are elevating this "premise" to the same level as the two postulates, then you are in effect saying that this "permise" is a postulate instead of a lemma. Of course, if you are willing to say that this premise exists under the two postulates, then I will happily agree with that.
	: Also, I agree with your equations numbered just above. Do note, BTW, that when v=0, equations 2 and 3 become equal. That is the case when simultaneity can be defined, as Einstein noted. BTW: The second postulate applies in each reference frame with respect to the observer. So if the AB system is in motion with respect to the observer, your equations 2 and 3 are required by the second posulate, since the "closing rate" of the light with respect to A and B must be modified if ''c'' is always the same with respect to the observer. --] \| ] 07:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
	----

	So...how much more of this is required before he is blocked?

	] 01:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

	I haven't yet issued a request to have him blocked (or you, for that matter). Given the number of responses to his RfC, it seems pointless. We'll just go on editing out each other until he gives up as he did on USENET in 2000 or I die. One thing is certain, he can't win. If you want to issue a blocking request against him I'll second it.
	(Here comes the whine "I didn't mean him when I said "he"). You are out of your league, Gisse, and your prejudice shows. When are you going to teach me relativistic math and show me how a constant velocity reverses direction from +c to -c when it is still Geschwindigkeit c, junior? I want a relativistic computer like yours.
	] 02:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
	----

	I would try to teach it to you, but there really isn't any point because you still refuse to acknowledge your misconceptions on the matter. I have already pointed out the flaws in your arguments. Since you are willing to go back and edit my responses, it is clear you did see what I said and just don't care to respond either because you don't know how or don't understand the argument.

	To answer a previous question whose answer you edited...You asked for me to provide evidence for you being wrong and unwilling to admit it. Here it is. Please stop removing it from this discussion page as it is valid to the topic at hand and is not in violation of Misplaced Pages policy.

	http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/ImmortalFumbles.html

	] 02:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

	When are you going to teach me relativistic math and show me how a constant velocity reverses direction from +c to -c when it is still Geschwindigkeit c, junior? I want a relativistic computer like yours and the idiot Dork Van de merde's. Schaefer has one too, but nobody will tell me where I can buy one. All the computers I know of seem to work on Newtonian math.
	] 12:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

	: Interesting quip, but not a bad point. That misuse of "velocity" in the translation when Einstein used the German in a way that is known to mean "speed" in English has been a nuisance more than once. Basically velocity is a vector as you correctly surmised, while speed is a scalar which is the absolute value of the velocity vector. If we use ''v'' as the scalar (as opposed to '''''v''''', which is the vector since it is bolded), then by components <math>v = \sqrt{{{\mathbf v}_x}^2 + {{\mathbf v}_y}^2 + {{\mathbf v}_z}^2}</math>. ''c'' is a scalar value, not a vector value. (If ''c'' was a vector value, your argument would be valid, BTW.) --] \| ] 14:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

	How come you respond to questions I ask of Gisse, and Gisse responds to questions I ask of you, shithead? Junior questions are for juniors, moron.

	You, Schaefer, are a liar and a fraud.

	# ''t<sub>B</sub>'' - ''t<sub>A</sub>'' = ''t'''<sub>''A''</sub> - ''t<sub>B</sub>'' (for a light signal when ''A'' and ''B'' are stationary) can only exist in all frames of reference if the second postulate holds true.
	# ''t<sub>B</sub>'' - ''t<sub>A</sub>'' = ''x'/(c-v)''
	#''t'''<sub>''A''</sub> - ''t<sub>B</sub>'' = ''x'/(c+v)''

	Therefore Einstein's third premise is central to SR;
	SR is built upon more than two premises and you are a f * cking LIAR, placing your non-neutral point of view in place of the truth, shithead.
	] 19:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

	: To be honest with you, we are both having some fun with you. Gisse it trying to convert you, while I merely have decided to respond for the record, more than for you. I think that both you and me have now stated our case as best we can, so it is time for me to settle back and figure out just how to get you blocked. (Actually, your last edit to ] was an obvious type of vandalism known as blanking. You are invited to keep that up, as it will make securing a block against you much easier.)
	: I assure you quite kindly (even given the invectives you are hurling at me here) that you are mistaken about relativity theory. More importantly, our view (be it correct or not) is that which properly reflects the current state of human knowledge, and that is what Misplaced Pages is meant to document. You are free to continue to fight until we do get you blocked. I know that you are sincere, which is one reason why Jawr gets called down on that edit of his. Even so, it does not excuse your refusal to respect the purpose, processes, and civility of Misplaced Pages. In fact, when you do get blocked, the reason may well be your lack of civility as much as anything else. --] \| ] 19:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
	----

	Androcles, could you at least argue about something that isn't as trivial as misunderstanding what a ] is? The "third premise" requires the second postulate and is thus not a postulate. Since the "third premise" is only used to prove other things, it is also not a theorem and thus it is a lemma. Since you claim to have a degree in mathematics, this should make sense to you.

	] 21:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

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	== No personal attacks, please ==

	Please see Misplaced Pages's ] policy. Comment on ''content'', not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to ] for disruption. Please ] and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. <!-- Template:No personal attacks -->

	Androcles - This is due to your calling me a "a f * cking LIAR" and "shithead" in . Do a personal attack again, and a {{tl\|npa2}} template will be added. Another time, and a {{tl\|npa3}} template will be added and a report to the administrators made at ]. After that, you will hopefully be blocked. In any case, you have been warned! --] \| ] 20:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


	I call a spade a spade, Schaefer. I've seen your warnings before, too.
	A liar is someone that tell lies.
	] 21:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
	----
	Please see Misplaced Pages's ] policy. Comment on ''content'', not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to ] for disruption. Please ] and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. <!-- Template:No personal attacks -->

	This is for calling me a "liar" again. (Please do stop and think. You really can say the same thing without labelling me a "liar", and I would not mind your "winning" this round.) --] \| ] 21:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

	== Blocked ==

	I blocked you for 24h. We are here to write an encyclopedia, not prat around ] 22:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

	Understood.

	The heart of special relativity is Einstein's statement, reference:
	http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
	"we establish by definition that the ``time'' required by light to travel from A to B equals the ``time'' it requires to travel from B to A",
	and as used in the equation:
	http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img22.gif
	from which the so-called "Lorentz" transformations are derived.
	It is a LIE to say
	"One of the strengths of special relativity is that it can be derived from only two premises", three are essential.
	It is a LIE to say
	"The laws of physics are the same in any inertial frame of reference"
	The laws of physics apply in ALL frames of reference, and Einstein did use
	the word "inertial".

	IN FACT, he said:
	"If we assume that the result proved for a polygonal line is also valid for a continuously curved line, we arrive at this result: If one of two synchronous clocks at A is moved in a closed curve with constant velocity until it returns to A, the journey lasting t seconds, then by the clock which has remained at rest the travelled clock on its arrival at A will be (1/2 tv^2/c^2) second slow. Thence we conclude that a balance-clock at the equator must go more slowly, by a very small amount, than a precisely similar clock situated at one of the poles under otherwise identical conditions."

			] 01:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
	A continuous curved line is not inertial.
			:(P.S. I am not nice, I say it the way it is. Any problems with formatting are the problems of Wackypedia's pathetic 1980 vintage and 1960 quality text editor, I pasted and copied the email ) -- Androcles, the old Sorcerer.

			____
	It is a LIE to say
	"The speed of light in a vacuum is constant (specifically, 299,792,458 meters per second relative to the observer)."
	Einstein calls his speed of light 'c' and it is measured from A to A in time t'A-tA.
	Geschwindigkeit is the magnitude of Geschwindigkeit.

			== POV tag vandalism ==
	If you are here to write an encyclopedia you should not be telling lies
	or pratting around with things you do not understand.
	I am not attempting to rewrite relativity, I am concerned only with the FACTS, with a NEUTRAL point of view. There is no requirement for adjectives
	such as "strength" or claims of the speed of light being 299,792,458 meters per second relative to the observer. In SR, the speed of light is 'c' and is measured from A to A in time t'A-tA. Thus Misplaced Pages is presenting lies
	by Schaefer and Hillman.

			Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, as you did to ], you will be ] from editing Misplaced Pages. <!-- Template:Test3-n (Third level warning) --> It is also noted that you vandalized ].
	] 12:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

			Your use of the {{tl\|POV}} tag is inappropriate. To quote from ] again:
	== 3RR rule ==

			: ''a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of '''whether it's true or not'''; and regardless of '''whether you can prove it or not'''.''
	Androcles - Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be ] from editing Misplaced Pages under the ], which states that nobody may ] a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the ''effect'' of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you.<!-- Template:3RR -->

			It's time for you to stop. --] \| ] 04:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
	You have reverted ] by re-inserting the {{tl\|POV}} tag four times within 24 hours. (Note that the first time you inserted that tag does not count towards 3RR. So you actually have inserted that tag five times now.) That is a violation of this policy. However, you have not been previously warned about it, and it is a ] to request that you be blocked for it without your being warned first. So please consider yourself warned.

			== "Significant minority" ==
	BTW - Even if you adhere to this rule from now on, you will sooner of later be called to account if you continue to place the {{tl\|POV}} tag on ]. There is a consensus that your view is improper under ] as described in ]. Because of that, your use of the tag is considered to be POV and therefore a form of vandalism. (I know that you believe what you are saying. It still does not belong here.) --] \| ] 05:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

			On my talk page, you wrote:
	: I've blocked you for 24h for 3rr / disruption. Please try to contribute productively ] 07:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
			: I name ], ], ] as prominent adherents to the SIGNIFICANT minority POV.
			Let's see: You are naming three dead men who espouse the now all-but-dead idea that relativity is invalid. IMO, you have not made your case that your viewpoint is significant today in the least. --] \| ] 14:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

			I don't care for your opinion, Schaefer, it is prejudiced. You are a bigot and a liar. That is a personal attack, have me blocked (or not bother, I block myself). I will not be silenced, there are better media than wackypedia and its inconsistencies. You and you clique are a joke, you'll never be a journalist, scientist or mathematician as long as you have a hole in your arse.
	== No personal attacks (again) ==
			I refuse to play your silly rules games with you any more.
			Signature refused.

			"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. "-- Robert A. Heinlein
	{{npa3}} --] \| ] 01:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 01:39, 13 July 2006

Archive 1

The facts of the original disagreement have been kindly archived by Schaefer.

Einstein's theory of relativity.

At this time there is some controversy concerning Relativity as Einstein wrote it.

For clarification refer to:

http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/

which is the original paper translated into English and these following links:

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DominoEffect.GIF

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Rocket/Rocket.htm

http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Smart/Smart.htm

The viewpoints expressed on those pages are my own and are not of a neutral point of view. It is encumbent upon others to present the facts as lucidly and as unambiguously as possible, with facts agreed by consensus. After all, facts cannot be ambiguous. Persons/editors wishing to discuss the matter should do so on the appropriate page and not here.

Der alte Hexenmeister 14:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome

Androcles -

I did the archiving for two reasons:

That is the proper way of clearing out a talk page. (Under Misplaced Pages guidelines discussion should never be removed except to archive it.)
It keeps others from reverting this page against your wishes.

If I may make a suggestion: You may want to move (or copy) the above business on Einstein's theory to your user page. Just

hit the "edit this page" tab,
select the section and do a Ctrl/C (to copy it),
hit the red "user page" tab,
paste the section into the edit window that you will get, and
save it.

This will place your concerns on your "front door", making them more prominent, and keeping them from getting lost in the clutter here. --EMS | Talk 15:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

User and talk pages

Please don't leave comments on peoples userpages. Use their talk pages instead. Edits like this will get you a block if repeated William M. Connolley 19:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

That's ok, User: Connolley (Admin). You go ahead and do whatever you wish. Your threat of excommunication has no effect upon me, history has adequate precedent of tyranny, censorship and blatant bullying. Unlike Galileo, I do not fear you or the Pope, Pontius Pilate, Herod, Ceaser, Hitler, Saddam Hussein or any of your ilk.

You did not have the common courtesy of responding to my communique, reproduced below, and that adequately states my opinion of you. Schaefer is yet another bully and enemy of science. If it is the policy of wackypedia to ignore the voice of the heretic "even if he can prove" the LIES, then I want no part of wackypedia's religion.

Freedom of the press goes to those that own one, but you cannot own the internet. Excommunicate me from your clique as you will, I shall never be excommunicate from my fellow man. With this missive, I excommunicate you.

Copy of email sent to User:Connolley (Admin)

> Connolley: > > Check the FACTS on the discussion page of > http://en.wikipedia.org/Theory_of_relativity > where the prats Price and Schaefer are "pratting around" (your terminology). > > Price has inadvertently admitted his error: > "When you learn the difference between a lie and a mistake" -- Price. > > Schaefer expressly admits to being an honest prat: > "To be honest with you, we are both having some fun with you." > -- http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Der_alte_Hexenmeister > > I can quote my sources, Connolley. > > You claim to be a mathematician. A mathematician would recognise > that a constant velocity isn't a reversal of direction. > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DominoEffect.GIF > That's my non-neutral PoV, which I can state openly on my own page. > My neutral PoV is different. Light travels from A to A in time t'A-tA = 0/0 > in Einstein's relativity. > > > "I've blocked you for 24h for 3rr / disruption. Please try to contribute > productively William M. Connolley 07:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC) " -- Connolley. > > Please try to be neutral and learn what "productive" means. I'm not trying to > rewrite > relativity in wikipedia, I can make my own comments on my own web page, and I > do. > But some prats are liars, maliciously misleading the public, having fun, > either through ignorance or stupidity. > > Do you see a contradiction between these two statements, Connolley? > "These two postulates suffice for the attainment of a simple and consistent > theory "--Einstein, > reference : http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ > "This is the strength of special relativity, that it can be derived from such > a single, basic principle" -- wackypedia, reference: > http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Theory_of_relativity > > Wackypedia COULD be a useful vehicle for the dissemination of knowledge, but > not if it contains LIES. > > I do not believe you to be impartial. > "Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Acton. > Are you a mathematician, Connolley? I have my doubts. I think you more > concerned with political correctness than truth. In short, you are (in your > own words) pratting around. > > > Der alte Hexenmeister ist: > Sorcerer Androcles Dumbledore, Headmaster, hogwarts.physics > school for zauberlehrlings. > "One muggle's magic is another sorcerer's engineering" > > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ >

"Capital Punishment, a penalty regarding the justice and expediency of which many worthy persons -- including all the assassins -- entertain grave misgivings." -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

May your god go with you (and rot).

Der alte Hexenmeister 01:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

(P.S. I am not nice, I say it the way it is. Any problems with formatting are the problems of Wackypedia's pathetic 1980 vintage and 1960 quality text editor, I pasted and copied the email ) -- Androcles, the old Sorcerer.

____

POV tag vandalism

Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, as you did to twin paradox, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. It is also noted that you vandalized principle of relativity.

Your use of the {{POV}} tag is inappropriate. To quote from WP:NPOV#Undue_weight again:

a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

It's time for you to stop. --EMS | Talk 04:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

"Significant minority"

On my talk page, you wrote:

I name Paul Langevin, Herbert Dingle, Bertrand Russell as prominent adherents to the SIGNIFICANT minority POV.

Let's see: You are naming three dead men who espouse the now all-but-dead idea that relativity is invalid. IMO, you have not made your case that your viewpoint is significant today in the least. --EMS | Talk 14:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't care for your opinion, Schaefer, it is prejudiced. You are a bigot and a liar. That is a personal attack, have me blocked (or not bother, I block myself). I will not be silenced, there are better media than wackypedia and its inconsistencies. You and you clique are a joke, you'll never be a journalist, scientist or mathematician as long as you have a hole in your arse. I refuse to play your silly rules games with you any more. Signature refused.

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. "-- Robert A. Heinlein