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<div style='font-size:medium; text-align:center;'>'''Draft Article'''</div><p><div style='text-align:center;'>While this article is fully protected until editing disputes are resolved, there is a draft article which can be used to develop the content at ].</div>
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| author = ]
| title = Twitter and the poisoning of online debate
| org = ]
| url = http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29642313
| date = 16 October 2014
| quote = "I am not going into the rights and wrongs of Gamergate here - there is what looks like a factual account of this interminable saga on Misplaced Pages, although of course there have been disputes about its objectivity."
| author2 = David Jenkins
| title2 = 2014: Video gaming’s worst year ever
| org2 = ]
| url2 = http://metro.co.uk/2014/10/20/2014-video-gamings-worst-year-ever-4912543/
| date2 = 20 October 2014
| quote2 = "The Misplaced Pages entry is as good as any at explaining the basics, and shows how the whole movement is based on nothing but the ravings of a female developer’s ex-boyfriend and a level of misogyny that you’d find hard to credit existing in the Middle Ages, let alone the modern day." }}
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| from3 = Gamergate controversy
== RFC: Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? (Gamergate controversy) ==
| destination3 = Gamergate harassment campaign
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| link3 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 37#Requested move 15 May 2015
| date3 = May 15, 2015


| from4 = Gamergate controversy
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| destination4 = Gamergate
| result4 = Withdrawn
| link4 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 45#Requested move 30 August 2015
| date4 = August 30, 2015


| from5 = Gamergate controversy
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| destination5 = Gamergate (sexist terrorism)
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| result5 = POINT close
| link5 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 46#Requested move 19 September 2015
| date5 = September 19, 2015


| from6 = Gamergate controversy
Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: ]
| destination6 = Gamergate (harassment campaign)
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| link6 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 60#Requested move 12 August 2021
| date6 = August 12, 2021


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{{Old MfD |date=23 June 2017 |result='''redirect''' |page=Draft:Gamergate controversy |altpage=Draft:Gamergate controversy}}
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Since I'm not seeing where this was discussed before and to actually establish some consensus, in considered the referenced DBZ image that the GG logo's colors are said to evoke, the question is how that image is described. Both from the sources and knowing the image in question, the image can be described, at best, depicting sodomy (one static image cannot readily imply rape) but when the image was used on 4chan, it was typically associated with their so-called "rape jokes" - in that 4chan applied the "rape" concept to the image. The FastCo Branding article does establish that it is a "rape joke" image, so we can't say it depicts "rape", but can say it is a image often associated with "rape jokes" on 4chan, per FastCo. --] (]) 16:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
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|author=Alex Hern|url=https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/23/wikipedia-bans-editors-from-gender-related-articles-amid-gamergate-controversy|title=Misplaced Pages votes to ban some editors from gender-related articles|date=January 23, 2015|org=]
|author2=]|url2=https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/14/if-we-took-gamergate-harassment-seriously-pizzagate-might-never-have-happened/|date2=December 14, 2016|title2=If we took 'Gamergate' harassment seriously, 'Pizzagate' might never have happened|org2=]
|author3=]|url3=http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/02/wikipedia_gamergate_scandal_how_a_bad_source_made_wikipedia_wrong_about.html|title3=The Misplaced Pages Ouroboros|org3=Slate|date3=February 5, 2015
|author4=Dabitch|url4=http://adland.tv/adnews/wikipedia-perpetual-native-ad-machine/255028968|title4=Misplaced Pages: the perpetual motion native ad machine|org4=Adland|date4=February 5, 2015
|author5=Lauren C. Williams|url5=https://thinkprogress.org/wikipedia-wants-to-ban-feminists-from-editing-gamergate-articles-updated-6624e8987048#.6imluhnjw|org5=ThinkProgress|title5=Misplaced Pages Wants To Ban Feminists From Editing GamerGate Articles (Updated)|date5=January 26, 2015|archiveurl5=https://web.archive.org/web/20180929000042/https://thinkprogress.org/wikipedia-wants-to-ban-feminists-from-editing-gamergate-articles-updated-6624e8987048/|archivedate5=September 29, 2018
|author6=Daniel Greenfield|url6=http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/263914/gawker-editor-gamergate-was-our-most-effective-daniel-greenfield|title6=Gawker Editor: Gamergate Was Our Most Effective Enemy|org6=]|date6=August 20, 2016|archiveurl6=https://archive.ph/1GbLp|archivedate6=21 August 2016


|author7 = Sam Wineburg and Nadav Ziv
|title7 = Go ahead and use Misplaced Pages for research
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{{Top 25 Report|Oct 19 2014 (19th)}}
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| {{cite book |last=Beyer |first=Jessica L. |chapter=Trolls and Hacktivists: Political Mobilization from Online Communities |date=2021 |title=The Oxford Handbook of Digital Media Sociology |editor-last=Rohlinger |editor-first=Deana A. |publisher=Oxford University Press |doi=10.1093/oxfordhb/9780197510636.013.47 |isbn=978-0-19-751063-6 |editor2-last=Sobieraj |editor2-first=Sarah |pages=417–442}}
| {{cite book |last=Condis |first=Megan |title=Gaming Masculinity: Trolls, Fake Geeks, and the Gendered Battle for Online Culture |year=2018 |publisher=University of Iowa Press |isbn=978-1-6093-8566-8 |pages=95–106 |jstor=j.ctv3dnq9f.12 |chapter=From #GamerGate to Donald Trump: Toxic Masculinity and the Politics of the Alt-Right}}
| {{cite news |last=Dewey |first=Caitlin |author-link=Caitlin Dewey |date=2016-02-17 |title=In the battle of Internet mobs vs. the law, the Internet mobs have won |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/02/17/in-the-battle-of-internet-mobs-vs-the-law-the-internet-mobs-have-won/ |url-status=live |work=] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230710005803/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/02/17/in-the-battle-of-internet-mobs-vs-the-law-the-internet-mobs-have-won/ |archive-date=2023-07-10 |access-date=2024-01-22 |url-access=limited}}
| {{cite book |last1=Donovan |first1=Joan |last2=Dreyfuss |first2=Emily |last3=Friedberg |first3=Brian |title=Meme Wars: The Untold Story of the Online Battles Upending Democracy in America |date=2022 |publisher=Bloomsbury Publishing |location=New York |isbn=978-1-63-557864-5}}
| {{cite book |last=Jones |first=Bethan |editor=Booth, Paul |title=A Companion to Media Fandom and Fan Studies |year=2018 |publisher=John Wiley & Sons |location=Hoboken, N.J. |isbn=978-1-1192-3716-7 |pages=415–429 |doi=10.1002/9781119237211.ch26 |chapter=#AskELJames, Ghostbusters, and #Gamergate: Digital Dislike and Damage Control |chapter-url=https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/epdf/10.1002/9781119237211.ch26 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
| {{cite book |last=Kidd |first=Dustin |title=Social Media Freaks: Digital Identity in the Network Society |date=2018 |publisher=Routledge |location=New York |isbn=978-0-4299-7691-9 |chapter=GamerGate: Gender Perspectives on Social Media}}
| {{cite book |last1=O'Donnell |first1=Jessica |title=Gamergate and Anti-Feminism in the Digital Age |date=2022 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-031-14057-0 |pages=179–222 |doi=10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_6 |chapter=Changes Following Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_6 |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
| {{cite book |last1=O'Donnell |first1=Jessica |title=Gamergate and Anti-Feminism in the Digital Age |date=2022 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-031-14057-0 |pages=63–107 |doi=10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_3 |chapter=Gamers and Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_3 |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
| {{cite book |editor1-last=Reyman |editor1-first=Jessica |editor2-last=Sparby |editor2-first=Erika |title=Digital Ethics: Rhetoric and Responsibility in Online Aggression |date=2020 |publisher=Routledge |location=New York |series=Routledge Studies in Rhetoric and Communication |isbn=978-0-367-21795-2 |edition=1st |doi=10.4324/9780429266140 |s2cid=189982687}}
| {{cite book |last=Ruffino |first=Paolo |title=Future Gaming: Creative Interventions in Video Game Culture |date=2018 |publisher=Goldsmiths Press |location=London |isbn=978-1-90-689755-0 |pages=104–119 |chapter=GamerGate: Becoming Parasites to Gaming}}
| {{cite journal |last=Salter |first=Michael |title=From Geek Masculinity to Gamergate: The Technological Rationality of Online Abuse |journal=Crime, Media, Culture |date=2018 |volume=14 |issue=2 |pages=247–264 |doi=10.1177/1741659017690893 |issn=1741-6604}}
| {{cite book |last1=Veale |first1=Kevin |title=Gaming the Dynamics of Online Harassment |date=2020 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-030-60410-3 |pages=1–33 |doi=10.1007/978-3-030-60410-3_1 |chapter=Introduction: The Breadth of Harassment Culture and Contextualising Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-030-60410-3_1 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
| {{cite book |last1=Wilson |first1=Katie |editor1-last=Booth |editor1-first=Paul |title=A Companion to Media Fandom and Fan Studies |date=2018 |publisher=John Wiley & Sons |location=Hoboken, N.J. |isbn=978-1-119-23721-1 |pages=431–445 |doi=10.1002/9781119237211.ch27 |chapter=Red Pillers, Sad Puppies, and Gamergaters |chapter-url=https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/epdf/10.1002/9781119237211.ch27 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
| {{cite book |last1=Zuckerberg |first1=Donna |title=Not All Dead White Men: Classics and Misogyny in the Digital Age |date=2018 |publisher=Harvard University Press |isbn=978-0-6749-8982-5 |pages=}}
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__TOC__


==Sanctions enforcement==
::-] writes: '''“ one static image cannot readily imply rape”'''.
<!-- START PIN -->{{Pin message|}}<!-- ] 12:00, 26 April 2035 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1840363256}}<!-- END PIN -->

All articles related to the ].
::I rather suspect that few art historians and fewer semioticians would agree with ].
:::Yes, that was a bad choice of argument for ], for multiple reasons: (1) the image in question is an animation, not static; (2) static images of ] have been a mainstay of classical art for centuries; (3) this sort of expression of personal opinion about what is or is not possible, in the face of what the reliable sources actually say, is the sort of thing we should be trying to avoid here. —] (]) 22:02, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
:: In the context of threats of personal harm, I’d not advise anyone to rest too much weight on the distinction between "rape" and "rape joke". I know that I just critiqued ] above (in fact edit-conflicting with this), but seriously: this is not what you want to say, not even on a talk page, not even in the heat of an argument. Please rethink this quickly. ] (]) 16:53, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
:::There is a necessary distinction, however, when it comes to the typical 4-chan mindset, and why we should be clear. Communities like that are aware of the cruelty of the physical action, but their online culture of anonymonity and separate from any victims, as described by many social reports on GG and the Internet in general, give them little idea of the consequences and repercussions of the use of "rape jokes" and the like particularly to those the target of those jokes. They don't see that being an issue (at least, until moderation steps in as was for the given 4chan image with the given color scheme). As such, in terms of talking about the 4chan community, there ''is'' a difference, and we have to be careful with the wording to avoid implicating something that is not true on a otherwise delicate manner. --] (]) 17:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

:It really wasn't that I could find after the fact, or it was not discussed with any conclusiveness, so that kinda takes the hot air out of the flawed GG sanction filing last night. I'd be fine with "rape joke" as the descriptor. I'm also rather nauseated that we even have to discuss this in this level of detail. ] (]) 16:51, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
::Trying to stave off another edit war, and since I can't find earlier consensus, might as well set it now and get it done over with quickly. I don't like talking about this either but necessary to avoid problems here. --] (]) 17:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

'''Emphatic Oppose''': First, the Fast Company article uses "rape" in the headline, repeatedly in the body, and elsewhere. Second, "joke" is a silly fig leaf: "Oh, my client made no threat -- the horse head in his bed was simply a practical joke" Third, we are apparently being invited to speculate whether '''in the mindset of 4chan''' sodomy is not as bad as rape or is "not that big a deal" and we have to respect what the <strike>people making rape threats</strike> 4chan commenters really meant. This is well beyond the pale. Please think again. (Meanwhile, should this go to AN/I immediately? Discretionary sanctions? WP:EMERGENCY? The project would be cast in a most unfortunate light if this discussion became common knowledge.) ] (]) 17:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
:First, there was an edit war over it; something has to be discussed; it's an icky discussion but one that is needed if we are going to talk about that in the article (WP is not censored). Second, it is not a "fig leaf", it a very large difference between a "rape joke" that comes from the locker room attitude of 4chan, and the actual vile physical action which I doubt the average 4channer would actually support. --] (]) 17:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
:BTW, the article doesn't use "rape" in the headline at all, and only uses "rape joke" or "rape meme", but even describes the actual image in another manner. --] (]) 17:39, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

::My mistake: rape is in Boing Boing’s headline, the other reference. I'm glad you think the average 4chan reader does not support committing a first-class felony. And it's not an '''icky''' discussion at all. What’s icky here is excusing threatening female game developers with rape (besides murder) because either (a) not everyone on 4chan thinks that three women who happen to work in the games industry ought to be raped, and (b) they might have intended to threaten anal rather than vaginal rape, which they (or you?) think is less bad for some reason? Or you have reason to think that ''they'' think it’s less bad? ] (]) 17:57, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

::Well this is where we'd probably differ, but I think we're winding up in the same place anyways. The average, level-headed person obviously finds the idea of rape abhorrent, but IMO they also find the idea of ''joking'' about such a serious thing equally abhorrent. Trivializing and desensitizing others to the act via joking is just as damaging, so if Gamergaters want to hang their argument on "we aren't being serious, we're just having fun", I say "go right ahead". ] (]) 18:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
:::Agreed 100%. Is there consensus to change this to {{blue|... linked the character's green and purple color scheme to an old 4chan rape joke.}}? This is how it's most commonly referred to in both sources (or 'rape meme', but in this context I'd consider them pretty much synonyms.) — ] (]) 18:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
::::I'd quote "rape joke" but other than that is fine. Let the reader determine how appropriate a "rape joke" is instead of putting it in WP's voice, to keep us neutral. --] (]) 18:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

:::::::No. "Old" implies it's just an old joke, so no big deal. "Joke" is doubtful: I see no evidence that there's a joke here. Is there a story with a funny punchline? Is this something said to cause amusement? Who is amused, precisely? It’s allusion to an image of anal rape, presented in the context of threats against specific named women, and we should (and must) say so without excuse or prevarication. '''And someone -- preferably Masen -- should revdel the claim that "static images cannot readily imply rape " before we end up being called (a) a laughingstock and (b) rape enablers.
::::::::I was thinking of "old" as in "long standing", not as a diminutive. We can leave it off, but we should convey to the reader somehow that this wasn't something new and unfamiliar to 4chan users. The sources use both "joke" and "meme". I agree it's not much of a 'joke', maybe "meme" would be better? We definitely don't need the scare quotes or any "locker room culture" talk. — ] (]) 18:49, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) ]: in the interest of keeping WP’s voice neutral, you want to be sure that the reader determines how appropriate a "rape joke" might be in the context of threats of physical harm leveled against women for pursuing their professional vocation. Could you provide an example where readers would think rape jokes to be appropriate in this context? (Do you have a bunch of good rape jokes you'd like to share with us?) ] (]) 18:16, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Firstly your thoughts on this aren't very relevant, second of course people found it funny, it's shock humour. ]] 22:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

:No, we should let the reader come to a conclusion that is not stated in the sources but implicit by a reasonable moral system. That is we can say, factually:
:* There was an image (since banned) used on 4chan as part of a "rape joke" locker room attitude that has a unique color scheme.
:* Even once the image was banned, other images of the same color scheme were used on 4chan in the same "locker room" joking attitude.
:* Images used by GG - their logo and Vivian specifically - use a similar color scheme.
:We can then say, per Fast Co's commentary that they (and others) believe this is not concidence, while GGs have denied any connection.

:But we ''cannot'' make the implicit connection from GG using images that suggest the rape joke to the issues of harassment and rape threats to say that there's a problem with this because even as an opinion that is not stated in the sources; it's well implied, but not stated. The reader will have to come to that conclusion themselves, and I would expect most will, regardless. But we have to stay non-sympathetic as editors on WP, and present things as neutrally and impartially as possible. Also, I consider your last sentence approaching a personal attack; I am in no way trying to morally justify how 4chan thinks, only that they do think in a different way that we should not present wrongly. --] (]) 18:28, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

On the subject of whether a static image can imply rape, we have ] on the one hand, and on the other hand we have Goya, Picasso, Bernini, Rubens, and a whole lot more. I think it's quite clear that Fast Company and Boing Boing drew the conclusion that the color scheme was chosen to allude to a rape meme. I also note that above you adopt the excuse that it's merely a "locker room" joking attitude -- after all, threatening rape in ''a locker room'' is just boyish behavior? I can't believe what I'm seeing -- and I can’t believe I’m alone here. ] (]) 18:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
:I am absolutely not trying to defend them, I am trying to say that in WP's neutral voice, there is a difference between a "rape joke" and the actual act, and we cannot imply the latter if the sources only talk about the former. We need to stay amoral regardless of any personal feelings on the matter. --] (]) 18:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

This is Misplaced Pages. We go with what the sources say. ] (]) 18:45, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

It should be noted that this misunderstanding is partially my fault, as I mentioned and allured to a discussion which was not large as I remembered, and certainly not as concrete as I remember. For that I am regretful. Though, More discussion is warranted I suppose. Rather than all the not forum and heated arguments, let's argue strictly based on the sources. The 'sodomy' compromise was what I believe was endured to stop the edit warring and endured until it was reverted by another editor just recently. Sodomy and rape are synonyms and if not, very closely related and is appropriate. It was a euphemism, additionally. So, the sources say: Fastcodedesign.com (ignoring any issues of reliablity), say 'rape meme' in the author's tone, but quotes the 'rape joke' portion of it. It also further mentions 'meme' further down in the article. They also use rape joke as someone's quote, so it appears they're using it interchangably. Boing Boing is less ambiguous, they use 'rape joke' in the title and in the article. So in essence, rape joke appears in both sources and if we're going to be going with not a compromise but solely from the source, it would be the dominant figure. ] (]) 18:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

:My goodness: I find I agree here with ] Will wonders never cease. However, ''sodomy'' and ''rape'' are '''not synonyms''' nor are they "very closely related", nor is "sodomy" a suitable euphemism for "rape", nor should Misplaced Pages adopt euphemisms to cover up criminal threats. The terms of this discussion are extremely ill-advised, but we now have a consensus: the sources say "rape" and "rape joke" and there we are. ] (]) 19:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
::: It's not uncommon to do such on Misplaced Pages, especially with regards to BLP; and to stop edit wars. It just makes it all the more common. And no, you're deliberately leaving off the 'joke' portion of it. They didn't mention purely the word, 'rape' but with the qualifier based on it. If you're trying to deliberately omit that qualifier, I am opposed to such as that would be synthesis of the source and leaves behind the important background information. ] (]) 19:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

::::I'm OK with "rape joke" as in these sources, but I (and I think quite a few readers) would appreciate a hint about how this is "a thing that someone says to cause amusement or laughter, especially a story with a funny punchline." I guess I'm missing something. No doubt I'm being dense; be a pal and let me in on the joke, OK? I mean, if the source called it a "rape trout," we'd presumably be scratching our heads. (Hate to be a sourpuss, but I'm not sure that I join with ] in thinking Misplaced Pages should be "amoral" when it comes down to raping game developers.) ] (]) 20:22, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::As the FastCo article explains, it is a in-joke in that, in the past, someone would post that image regularly, forcing it to the readers despite them not wanting it (hence the name). It is not so much "a joke about rape" (which yeah, would be hard to stomach), but a "forced" meme, which they came to call a "rape joke". We don't have to make any attempt to justify this even close to be a reasonable thing, only that it does exist and best described by that. --] (]) 20:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

::::::Sorry, ]. Walk me through this: I guess I'm very slow today. A group at 4chan is discussing a campaign to dissuade female game developers from pursuing their vocation by various means, such as beating them up at conferences. We're sending them rape and murder threats on Twitter, coordinated through this board at 4chan. And we’re sending each other an image that depicts a purple cartoon character raping a green cartoon character, which we send to various people "despite them not wanting it." I'm still not seeing a joke here. Of course, for some reason you don’t think '''any''' static image can depict rape, so I'm not sure you and I have a lot of common ground when it comes to visual humor.

::::::Let’s literally follow the sources. Rather than a "rape image" or a "rape joke", how about "an image of rape which 4chan users regarded as a joke"? That seems to follow ''precisely'' what you describe; the sources agree that the colors allude to a specific image, the sources (and common sense) that the image described non-consensual sexual penetration, and (as you point out) the sources make it clear that at 4chan, GamerGaters considered it a joke. This precisely follows our sources. ] (]) 22:15, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

:::::::The image and the harassment are separated by about 4-6 years of time (the image was banned on the site some time ago). So you're creating a statement about connection that doesn't exist. The connection from the image, to the green and purple colors which sorta became memetic on 4chan, to the Vivian/GG logo is postulated; the creators in the Fast Co article are stating it started from the green/purple of 4chan, and not the allusion to the first image, even if that's where the green/purple came from (there's oral history-type stuff that gets lost that people might forget such origins). There are clear possible theories presented that the designers of those images knew exactly what they were doing when they created the logos, but we cannot verify that at all. And no, the sources are clear is it s a "rape joke/meme", (in quotes) when used in the past. I doubt that today they would considering using that image in light of the harassment issues. --] (]) 22:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I am so lucky I have someone on the inside to consult about *chan and the IRC. To start MB's... ''useful'' contributions are full of factual inaccuracies, appeals to emotion, and other such stuff. For one, Poole has formally censored any talk of GamerHate, save for a containment thread on the /pol/ board, which ''everyone'' takes seriously. Secondly, I can't imagine what 20k+ <s>group of diverse peoples who are fed up with the status quo</s> GamerHate sockpuppets, have to gain from harassing 3 women for 3+ months. Am I defending the scumbags who have harassed the women? Absolutely not. I simply find it beyond logic that 20K+ white, cishet male sockpuppet SPA vandals like me (neither cis, heterosexual, white, SPA, or vandal, and im NEUTRAL to GG, fyi), would have something to gain from such a trivial exercise in self-humiliation. Anyways, sure someone on the internet said so and so = rape, but it is up to Misplaced Pages to present the APPROPRIATE INFO. I'm sure the "green+purple=rape" can be justified; the same way /pol/ justifies the Holocaust. And, suppose that the green+purple colourscheme was based on piccolo. There are many avenues one can take to explain that. Perhaps the /a/ anime board wanted to hijack, in essence a character in a professional game. Or, make an inside joke about DBZ and GG. Perhaps a subtle way for /a/ to insult /v/'s taste in anime? Maybe some other board did something, since as I'm told, board infighting is common. AND, even if it is a reference (somehow) to Daily Dose, context matters. Perhaps it was the forced nature, perhaps (this is a huge stretch), since the pro-gg side were already nazis/rapists/KKK/ebola, they wanted to throw a curveball to the media knowing they grasp at nonexistent straws, in the hopes they'd make fools of themselves (suddenly its sounding very plausible). Unless you hunt down all 20K+ sockpuppets of GamerHate, and force them to submit to polygraph tests, and interrogate them about the meaning of the colors, is there really any way to make the claim said by the "RS"? Sure, both sides have made some hilariously fringe claims, but this one takes the cake, and eats it too. Unless you resort to far-right pseudoscience, I find no logical way to make such a definitive, and final claim. More attempts to charge an already charged article. --] ] 01:46, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
: if we're going to open things up to ] them we're going to open things up to EVERYONES OR, and trust me when I say it's not going to come out looking any better. ] (]) 05:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:: The articles sourced should somewhat be held to Misplaced Pages's own standards. This is a fringe point being made. It takes up valuable server space and adds nothing of value to the article. It should be removed completely. --] ] 06:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::You are not actually suggesting that we should apply ] to content within our sources and dismiss any source that makes an analysis because '''the source''' has made analysis and interpretation? -- ] 16:03, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::: /glances upwards at ridiculous conversation.
::: I think the whole conserving server space ship has sailed, I'm afraid. ] (]) 06:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::it was a joke. --] ] 07:14, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

== False allegations against Quinn and subsequent harassment ==
{{hat|Highly disruptive reopening of a settled topic with strong BLP implications.}}
I seriously cannot believe we are starting this topic again. We can't slap the False into the title because the allegations that the a friendship existed were true. We have to define that the allegations that favourable coverage were given were false; That however cannot be done in a single heading. ] (]) 16:20, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:Unless I'm missing something in the sources, isn't the accurate description of the claim "unfounded?" After all, the allegations have not been proven true or false, right? ] (]) 16:27, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::No, the claims, while based on weak evidence, has some foundation. But the claims have certainly be "refuted" by and large - the claims were made but the press has considered what the involved parties have said to be truthful so the claims were refuted. --] (]) 16:32, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::Walk me through this as if I'm completely new to this topic (it may just be able to nip this for good). What is the foundation, and what refuted it beyond the press simply declaring the "involved parties" as "truthful?" ] (]) 16:34, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::The foundation of the claim is: based on Gjoni's post, that Quinn and Grayson had started a more closer relationship. Quinn is a game dev with a game about to come out at that time, and Grayson an editor for the video game site Kotaku. The supposition that GG has used from that foundation is that Quinn was using the relationship to garner positive press for her game. (Note that Gjoni himself did not suggest any of this, and later went on record to affirm he didn't imply this at all).
::::The refution comes from a post made by Tolito, the lead ed at Kotaku, stating that the relationship between Quinn and Grayson (Which exists) has not impacted any of Grayson's editing since - there has been no review by Grayson or any member of Kotaku about DQ (this is provable), and while Grayson wrote about DQ earlier in a post about Game Jam, the timing was before the start of their relationship. As such, Tolito has refuted such claims, which Quinn and Grayson have said similar in their own comments. The press has readily agreed that the accusation is simply untrue based on these statements and lack of a DQ review. The GG side still point to the Game Jam article, which was written about 3 months prior to the relationship start date, as that there was still positive press at a point where Grayson and Quinn were friends within the industry, and that this still points to ethical concerns that Grayson gave Quinn's game a more favorable light in that Game Jam article. But at that point, we start going down a rabbit trail to even talk about it more from RSes. As such, the primary charge - Quinn was using the relationship with Grayson to get positive press - is by and far refuted by pretty much everyone else in the world. --] (]) 17:11, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

:Zoe Quinn is a free adult woman; she may befriend whom she pleases -- even a writer. So no "allegation" can be made on this account. The "allegation" is that she traded sexual favors for favorable reviews; this allegation has been comprehensively shown to be untrue. "False" accords with (a) the sources, (b) the facts, and (c) the longstanding usage on this page and its consensus.

:Also note that the unqualified allegation that Quinn traded, is alleged to have traded, or arguably traded sexual favors for favorable reviews would, if it appeared in the article, be a major BLP violation and as such is not, by my understanding, subject to the 3RR rule.

:Please note that this edit war began (as I predicted yesterday) within 5 minutes of the end of page protection. Restoration of '''FULL PROTECTION''' is very much in the interest of the project -- not least because this page is and will continue to be the subject of interest and scrutiny. Admins please take note. ] (]) 16:43, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

::The fact the accusation has been the major point of discussion of sources - and that all key parties have clearly stated that these are not true - means that from a BLP standpoint, it is acceptable to include the high-level nature of the allegations, as long as it is 100% clear that they have been refuted by the specific parties and by the press at large. This has been determined waaaaay in the past. Now there are other claims that have come against Quinn based on Gjoni's post, but which the press have generally ignored, but we are absolutely not including those per BLP. --] (]) 16:51, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::So, to be clear, the evidence that they're false comes from personal accounts, right? That's why "unfounded" appears to be a better word to use. That way, we're not letting the voice of Misplaced Pages take a side in what amounts to he-said-she-said, unless there's some clear evidence that I'm not seeing here. ] (]) 16:55, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::The biggest piece of evidence is the ''lack'' of positive coverage; there is no DQ review from Grayson (or Kotaku for that matter). What some GGers have focused on is Grayson's Game Jam article that highlights DQ as one of several games there, which arguably may be positive press, but it also was written before the date that Quinn/Grayson's relationship has been claimed to have been started; some GGers still consider this a problem in terms of positive press. --] (]) 16:58, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::So there isn't anything proving or disproving the allegations, thus they're unfounded. Am I reading this right? ] (]) 17:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::That there is a relationship is true - none of the involved parties deny this (Tolito even affirmed it in his post). But using that relationship for press, there is no visible evidence for that, in addition to what all three have said on the matter (Tolio, Quinn, and Grayson). There are some GGers that doubt those statements, but that's not our place to second guess what RSes have all assumed to be true statements. --] (]) 17:15, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::That there is or was a relationship is true, but cannot be an allegation. The only thing that can possibly be alleged is that sexual favors were exchanged for favorable reviews. This was alleged, and it was shown to be untrue. Dredging this up again and again could conceivably be actionable and is certainly a violation of WP:BLP. Nor need we make a point that the RS have all ''assumed'' these to be true statements: since no favorable reviews were in fact written, then the favorable reviews that do not exist could not possibly have been written in exchange for sexual favors. '''Why do the same WP editors keep finding the need to rehash the sexual history of this particular woman, who committed no wrongdoing, here?''' Stop it. ] : please consider revdel-ing this section, and someone -- anyone -- please hat it without delay. ] (]) 17:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::{{ping|Masem}} got it. I think, given what is known, that "unfounded" is what we should be using. ] (]) 17:50, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::I think ''false'' is fine. And I think it's a good thing we have six months now to discuss this and other pressing topics without risk of using wikipedia to make allegations about a game developer’s personal life. Now, it'd be dandy if the proponents of "Allegations" or "Unproven Allegations" would apologize to their victim, but that's not going to happen, is it? But I think it not unreasonable to ask that we enjoy a respite from rehashing this unrelenting torrent of vituperation against women in computing. ] (]) 18:09, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::With no firm evidence that the claims are false, regardless of our own feelings or beliefs on the matter, we need to go with what's available, thus "unfounded" seems fair: it put the onus on the accusers and assigns no fault to the target. "Unproven" implies evidence exists that hasn't been presented for the purposes of writing a neutral, factual article. Furthermore, please stop with the bad faith accusations here. It's a lot of heat and no light. ] (]) 18:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::The allegation that Quinn had a relationship was something that Gjoni's original post brought up (and to go into any more of that post, would be BLP for sure); the subsequent allegation that grew out of that from the GG side is that she not only had that relationship but was using it for positive press. Now at that point, there was no affirmation that Quinn/Grayson had a relationship, but once Tolito posted, as Kotaku's lead editor, about the situation, he affirmed that yes, there was an relationship, but nothing else about the allegation was true. As such "false" is technically wrong, because one facet of the allegation was confirmed as true; I'm fine with "unproven" to signal that no reliable source considers the allegation to be true otherwise. --] (]) 20:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I've restored full protection. An immediate edit war upon the end of page protection regarding a significant aspect of the controversy clearly indicates the need. ] <small>(])</small> 16:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you,]. As you were doing this, I was posting at ] asking someone -- anyone -- to do exactly that. You're a prince.

The hatting of this thread really comes across as strange. If we're not able to discuss a key section of the article, how are we supposed to improve/fix/settle the article? ] (]) 18:32, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
: per the above, I was willingly to compromise with the "Unfounded" change, having regrettingly done the "Unproven" ] one because I thought it represented it better. I was about to post this to end the discussion when I instead found out that <s>Gamaliel </s>RedPenOfDoom hatted it instead. ] (]) 18:41, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:: . Arguably we've been through the details of what the allegations are so many times in the past but that's been something that new ediors might not recognize if they don't read the archives. --] (]) 18:43, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

:The hatting (partially) protects serious BLP violations. If it were necessary to discuss false allegations concerning a named individual's sex life -- which you apparently felts was desirable -- that discussion is now settled. The allegations were false and unfounded; that's what the sources say, and that's what Misplaced Pages says. Some people apparently felt it was important to argue that the false and unfounded allegations might be better described as "unproven" or that we should rehash the sexual allegations again, in more detail, to see if something exculpatory for Gamergate might come up. It didn't. I'd take it as a kindness if, having read this, ] would tick his question and my answer together up under the hat.] (]) 18:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::I will not do so, no. I don't know why you continue to assume motives about your fellow editors, but the fact remains that the allegations, true or false or unfounded or unproven or disproven, remain part and parcel of the topic as far as I can tell, and are as such because of the sources that discuss them. No one involved in this talk section appears to want to slander anyone, but rather wants to solve the problem so we can all move on. Comments like this only serve to fan the flames. ] (]) 18:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

::That's an overreaction. If we were only including an allegation with no claims to back it up or no sourcing to show it was refuted, that would definitely be a BLP allegation. But we have many many RSes that all explain how this situation started from the allegations of using the relationship for positive reviews, the refutation of those by said parties, and the numerous sources that all believe their word it was refuted. That's completely acceptable to include (and as necessary, discuss) in building and improving the article. Again, I note that there are several other claims made by Gjoni that we '''will not include''' because no one else has talked about them or provided evidence about them, and that would be a clear BLP issue. But when an accusation is the focal point of an event, it has to be discussed. --] (]) 18:52, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I have unhatted, Red Pen of Doom should absolutely not be hatting any discussion. It also violates ]. ] (]) 19:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::There is a valid argument that TPROD should not have hatted the discussion under ]. There is no valid argument that it requires unhatting. According to BLPTALK, false allegations should be removed, deleted, redacted, or suppressed. It does not say that hatted discussions should be exposed. ]: You are experienced enough that you should know that BLPTALK does not say that hatted comments should be exposed. ] (]) 19:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::: I have issue and concern that if these claims related to the article are not resolved, they will stay in a state which will happen to also be a BLP violation. Hatting (and especially by a seriously involved editor) has no purpose on this specific discussion. For an example of hatting done right, Dungeon's assertion of Mike Cernovich should be hatted, as he presented no sources and the like. Hatting an active discussion relating to content which there are sources is not a productive use of time and delays the editing process. ] (]) 19:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
So gamergate IS about prurient interests in women's sex lives? I thought it was about ethics? -- ] 19:15, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::On the ], no one knows that you are being sarcastic. You, ], never really believed that it was about ethics, did you? ] (]) 19:19, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::Is it about misogyny in gaming then? Explain why I was doxxed. --] ] 19:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:: Or you could just not make meme claims on the talk page which is about improving the article, Red. ] (]) 19:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::edit warring to reopen well settled and well sourced content to beg ] BLP allegations that are not related to the topic of the article is not improving the encyclopedia. -- ] 19:28, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::: It's obviously not resolved if you're having to edit war to hat it. The article was edit warred to the exact issue. Discussion ensued. I see nothing out of process here other than the disruptive hatting. ] (]) 19:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::that editors keep saying we dont believe we should follow all of the reliable sources, doenst mean that it is not "settled" it just means that some people are disruptive. -- ] 19:34, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::And no editors in this discussion are saying we shouldn't follow the reliable sources, so this accusation also appears unfounded. ] (]) 19:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:The reliable sources call the accusations false. That's a settled issue. ] (]) 19:40, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::The reliable sources call the accusations false, yes. No one is disputing that. The question is how we, as a project, should refer to them in Misplaced Pages's voice given the evidence of the claim. Thus the option to use "unfounded," as it is a neutral term that encompasses the claims of all sides as well as weighs the evidence. ] (]) 19:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::We look at the sides of the evidence that have been presented by the reliable sources. Their side of the evidence: That the allegations ARE false. Period. And yes there ARE editors who are not only passively disputing it like you, but .-- ] 20:08, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::There is no "other side" here worthy of discussion, per ]. We cannot mention disproven allegations about a living person without clearly describing them as disproven. It is not "neutral" to present something which is false as possibly true. ] (]) 19:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::You seem to misunderstand, and part of the discussion above was to solve this. The reliable sources have declared them untrue, yes. We should say that with proper attribution. In Misplaced Pages's voice, however, we cannot simply assert a claim in ''either direction'' lacking evidence to do so. This is not a fringe position that the claims are unfounded, as reliable sources also state that. Given the nature of the claims and the evidence, there does not seem to be any other word that responsibly defines the situation described. ] (]) 19:58, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::You are just kidding arent you? Otherwise you are clearly demonstrating that you are either not ] or are simply here to troll. -- ] 20:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::Please stop the personal attacks. I have been an editor here for years, I understand very well how this works. ] (]) 20:27, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::No. The reliable sources call them false, because, as the reliable sources discuss, '''the evidence demonstrates that they are false.''' There is not and never has been a review of ''Depression Quest'' by Nathan Grayson. '''No such review exists in this or any other universe.''' This is uncontroverted fact, and fundamentally disproves the allegation. Any claims that the allegations are true is a ] unworthy of mention in this article. When it comes to allegations of wrongdoing about living people, it is a fundamental BLP issue that we describe false allegations as false, and we will do so in this case. ] (]) 20:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::Okay, now we're getting somewhere, and this comes back to the original question above. How does the lack of the review disprove the claim? That's the part I'm missing, based solely off the sources provided and the article. I'm trying to figure out how to solve this issue. ] (]) 20:27, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::The claim is that the relationship led to positive reviews and coverage by Nathan Grayson. No such reviews exist, and Nathan Grayson did not write anything '''at all''' about Zoe Quinn after the relationship began. ] (]) 20:30, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Got it. Based on what you're saying here, I have a better grasp on it. The language in the article as it currently stands appears good, then, and we might want to be more explicit about it being about one specific allegation, as the current wording suggests multiple allegations beyond the single review. Thank you for your patience. ] (]) 20:34, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Reviewing the bidding '''again''', as requested.. The page is unprotected this morning, after an overnight spasm of WP:FORUM speculation by DSA. Immediately after it's unprotected, we are asked to inquire into Zoe Quinn’s sex life, which has already been exhaustively discussed here. Is there something unethical? No. (again) Is there some source somewhere what says something '''might''' be unethical? (no) Can't we find anything bad to say? (no) Can we just say "allegations were made?" (no) Can we substitute "unfounded allegations" for "false allegations"? (maybe) Should this be on the talk page? (no) But OMG WP:BLPTALK !!!!! Can't hat! We must have more discussion of Zoe Quinn's sex life, as prominently as possible, because ... why exactly?! Oh -- and what other GG victims have sex lives we can discuss? (Hint: DSA tried to start that last night.) But its all fine, 'cause DSA says he got doxxed just like Ruylong, and WP:BLPTALK, and we mustn't misquote the nice admin about no static image can readily depict rape, because (oh yeah) it's '''really''' important that we spend a few thousand words to distinguish whether to call it a "rape meme" or a "rape joke" or "sodomy" because sodomy is totally like rape and it's all icky (as the respected admin reminded us repeatedly) but what are you going to do? Let me walk right up to the edge of WP:CIVIL, because the very edge is the only place we can decently stand: '''The behavior of pro-GG wikipedians on this page over the past 36 hours has been disheartening, appalling, and a disgrace to what was once a noble project.''' ] (]) 19:58, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Now this comment is the definition of ] and a rant in itself. ] (]) 20:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::No: it's a measured summary of the discussion, specifically requested by ]. But it you consider it ], I believe you know the way to discretionary sanctions. ] (]) 20:41, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::I consider the slander against my name by anti-gg pov-pushers saying that I am not neutral and such is sanctionable. But then again i don't support censorship, or lower myself to the level of anti-gg terrorists. --] ] 20:52, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
=== Arb break===
The issue overall is that when we mention "allegations", we have two allegations that we can talk to (under the scope of BLP and what good RSes give us):
* That Quinn and Grayson had a relationship (from Gjoni's post)
* That, in that relationship, Quinn was using it to get positive reviews (from GG's side)
The former was proven true by Kotaku, Quinn and Grayson, in a public manner. The latter has clear lack of evidence (no review of DQ on Kotaku, and Grayson hasn't mentioned her game in anything he's written since the relationship started) to be presumed false by all sources that matter.

So the issue, saying "false allegations" is not accurate because one was at least true. On the other hand if we are limiting it to the single accusation of positive press, then "false" is correct, as we currently have in the body {{green|This led to false allegations from Quinn's detractors in the gaming community that the relationship had resulted in Grayson publishing a positive review of Quinn's game, Depression Quest}}. But in the section title, "false assuations" is not correct, and while we could say "false accusation", there are several others accusations made (that we will not repeat) that GGers have also focused on, and while these have not had anywhere close to the same visibility of the main one, they have generally been considered unfounded or tangent to the matter at hand, but they do exist. Thus a word that is near to "false" but less "absolute" would be the better wording choice for the section title, such as "Unproven allegations...". --] (]) 20:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:Am I right in understanding that the ''Depression Quest'' review claim is false based on the evidence, but that there are other allegations that are believed to be false, but can only accurately be called unfounded or unproven? That might be the root of the issue of this section right here. ] (]) 20:31, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::There are other issues the proGG side has said that involve Quinn and journalism corruption that are above and beyond the relationship with Grayson which I am not going to go into any detail about for BLP reasons, just that those allegations have been made. I don't believe these allegations have merit but they do exist. --] (]) 20:35, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::If such allegations are not discussed in reliable sources, they don't exist for our purposes. You should know this already, Masem, and I'm sure you do. ] (]) 20:47, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::That was my concern as well, and some research I've been doing this afternoon sees them as barely discussed in unreliable ones as well. I think my issues with this section are mollified with the current language in the article. ] (]) 20:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::The article prose on the allegations itself is fine, I don't have issues with it either. It's just the section title and how things are reflected in the lead. --] (]) 20:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:No, Masem. The fact that someone's in a relationship is not an "allegation." There is no wrongdoing inherent to a personal relationship. As per the dictionary definition, an allegation is {{tq|a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong, typically one made without proof.}}
:Therefore, "alleging" that Zoe Quinn and Nathan Grayson had a relationship is meaningless and a non-issue. What ''is'' or ''could be'' a meaningful issue and allegation is if that relationship resulted in unethical conduct by Nathan Grayson. That is the allegation. That allegation has been thoroughly and repeatedly disproven. ] (]) 20:32, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:Two adults having a relationship is not an "allegation" that anyone cares about or that has any bearing on this article. The Puritan sex police are ]-- ] 20:33, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::Gjoni's post certainly made it it an allegation - he didn't have clear evidence of the relationship at the time. --] (]) 20:35, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::The existence of the relationship is not a meaningful public issue and no reliable sources have commented upon it. The only allegation which has been treated by reliable sources as a matter of public concern is the potential for a conflict of interest affecting journalistic coverage. The mere existence of a relationship between two people can have no bearing on the GamerGate controversy — unless you are admitting that GamerGate is ultimately founded upon the desire to slut-shame a woman. And if you are doing so, then I submit that the controversy about what to put in the lede of this article is over. ] (]) 20:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


: That Quinn and Grayson had a relationship is not an allegation. All sources agree. It is simply a fact.Moreover, an allegation implies wrongdoing, and there is no wrongdoing here. On its own, this has no relationship to this topic or to Zoe Quinn's biography, and mentioning it would be XP:UNDUE and a major BLP violation.

:That Quinn exchanged sexual favors for favorable editorial coverage is an allegation. Unfortunately for ]'s point of view, this allegation is false. We can assert its falsehood in two ways. (a) The overwhelming preponderance of reliable sources agree it is false. (b) It could only be true if, in fact, sexual favors were exchanged for editorial coverage. As Grayson wrote no editorial coverage, the allegation is necessarily false. Again and again: ] and his (fortunately shrinking -- DSA is about to be topic banned for last night's escapade) band of merry editors try to insinuate that Zoe Quinn's sex life deserves discussion here and that the language of the article should find some way to insinuate that something unethical occurred because.....why exactly? ] (]) 20:37, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

::The relationship existed. The allegation that it led to favorable reviews is unfounded. That the relationship lead to ethics changes is true. Professional news organizations have association policies and disclosure policies and post-Quinn/Grayson policy changes have occurred. In fact, those changes were assailed since they only came out after a female developer's relationship was exposed. That doesn't change the fact that the changes happened. Make no mistake: it was Grayson that was ethically challenged by not disclosing his relationship and the fact that he didn't review Quinn's game is a very narrow view of ethics. Grayson's boss had employees that reviewed Quinn and is why he made a statement. Quinn is not a journalist so any allegation against her is unfounded. --] (]) 20:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::'''Grayson did not write anything about Quinn or Depression Quest after beginning the relationship.''' Therefore, there was nothing for him to disclose, as he assiduously refrained from covering anything which might have led to the potential for a conflict of interest. No journalism ethics code anywhere requires that journalists wear scarlet letters informing the public of whom they have had intimate relations with. '''Kotaku never reviewed Depression Quest''' so no, Grayson's boss didn't have "employees that reviewed Quinn." You seem to be thoroughly misinformed as to the actual facts of the case. ] (]) 20:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Nonsense. Get's kind of awkward in the staff meetings when one author is discussing the work of a secret S/O of another writer. It's why ALL relationships with their topics are to be disclosed. It's why news organizations have disclosure policies (even if only internal). That Grayson's boss was surprised and had to investigate and then run damage control was enough to change policy. Think of Olbermann and Scarborough giving campaign donations. the problem wasn't the donation, it was the lack of disclosure. I work in an industry where disclosure to management is required (and isn't publicized, though may be forwarded to regulatory body). It doesn't matter whether a conflict happened, rather it's the perception of a conflict and a lack of oversight. Not disclosing a real or potential conflict can lead to termination. --] (])
{{hab}}

== False allegations against Grayson and subsequent harassment ==
{{hat|Highly disruptive reopening of a settled topic with strong BLP implications.}}
Why are we (again, still) discussing Zoe Quinn’s sex life? Zoe Quinn did nothing that was either (a) wrong or (b) any of our business. This will not, apparently, lead the sex-squad tag team from asserting that there's some sort of ''unproven sexual allegation'' that we need to explore in exhaustive depth. '''Proposal''': since all sources agree that Zoe Quinn was blameless, let's rewrite the section without her. '''Journalist Grayson was alleged to have had a relationship with a game developer whose work he would review.''' The allegation would still have to be clearly stated to have been false, but we could leave Zoe Quinn out of the matter entirely since she did nothing wrong.

Of course we will do no such thing, because ethics! (And we're ''terrorists'' now, forsooth, according to DSA’s swan song on this page.) ] (]) 21:01, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
::Nice cherrypicking. I'm talking about the people on anti-gg who found my personal info and doxxed me. Unless you're admitting to doxxing me? --] ] 21:11, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:::I also like to turn people's words against them. Someone on twitter called gg a group of terrorists, I call people who dox me terrorists. --] ] 21:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:No we can't. Because then the reason that Quinn got harassed makes no logical sense in the article. Her name is necessary to mention - by no fault of her own - as central to all this. --] (]) 21:06, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


:::How about '''Journalist Grayson was alleged to have had a relationship with a game developer whose work he would review. This allegation, upon investigation, proved to be untrue, but nonetheless led to the persistent harassment, death and rape threats against game developer Zoe Quinn, author of Depression Quest'''? At very least, this sequence reduces the temptation to insinuate that some wrongdoing might have occurred and further reduces the likelihood that any insinuations that find their way into the article, even briefly, will redound against Quinn. We've already done more than enough of that. But of course (sad...so sad) the very sorry GG contingent will find some reason that this, too is simply impossible and that instead we'll have to talk more about whether allegations about Quinn's sex life are alleged or unfounded or unproven. Again: shameful. ] (]) 21:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

{{hab}}

== Stop with the hat war ==
{{archive top|No more hat-warring, bring it to an admin or noticeboard instead. It would be silly to get sanctioned for warring over a talk page hat. ] <small>]</small> 21:26, 23 November 2014 (UTC)}}
Enough: @startship.paint, we're at or past the 3RR threshold. Please stop this silly protest against hatting BLP violations which ought, in point of fact, to be revdel'd. '''If the sanctions are to have any real effect, little edit wars like this need to be sanctioned.''' ] (]) 01:27, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
:I did one revert. I am simply trying to stop this silly battleground mentality. From my point of view every one of Avono, Masem and Thargor were discussing in good faith. Instead the hatting treats their discussion as '''highly disruptive''' and presents that as a fact. Mark, you attacked "pro-GG editors", which you labelled a "disgrace" in the hatted discussion, and you even attacked Masem on your blog. Legitimate discussion should not be censored, I don't recall anyone seriously arguing that the specific allegations against Quinn's sex life are true, so where indeed are the BLP violations? They've only said that the relationship (not the review) was true, which has been affirmed by reliable sources. ]] ''']''' 02:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
::I would like to note that it appear that both comments appear incorrect and that there is an issue with the current hatted discussion anyways. The two discussions are hatted at at . Afterwards, Starship.paint makes two separate edits to both of the topics that were hatted; and . According to ], "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert." This is a series of consecutive edits that can be claimed to undo the edits made by Tony Sidaway, so that is the first revert by Starship.paint. , which afterward for their second revert. and that should be that.
::Originally, I was going to ask how this benefitted the article, but there is something I noticed thanks to MarkBernstein making this topic. After Tony hatted the discussion, Mark made two edits to the discussion; and with the edit summary reading, "tucking own edit into the hat -- simultaneous edits." Considering the hat states to not modify the discussion, would you be will to explain what you meant in the edit summary or would you remove those edits from the hatted discussion? That aside, I would recommend to Starship.paint please not edit a discussion that has been hatted and for MarkBernstein to report a possible violation to the proper avenue. --] (]) 09:18, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
:{{ping|Super Goku V}} - Firstly, ] refers to one editor reverting thrice in one day, not multiple editors producing a series of three reverts. Secondly, my first edit for 18:30 and 18:31 ''did not undo TS' hatting'' and no text was removed, so I don't think it constitutes as a revert. ]] ''']''' 14:09, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

:::simple enough. I added a comment to the bottom of the unrated section, edit conflicting with the final hat. A quirk of the versioning system resolved the conflict, leaving my final word unhatted. I would have been fine with that, but of course the intent was to hat everything, not everything but me. So I modestly declined to have the last word. ] (]) 14:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
::::@MarkBernstein Huh, I thought that it was the full edit due to what it shows in the revision, but I can agree that the system did have issues with the edit due to the timestamp issue. Thank you for the response. --] (]) 16:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
::::@Starship.paint Well, it is an issue that does have some flexibility. I took the meaning of "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part (...)" as the issue for the first considering that you undid what was written and replaced the beginning with what you had written. As I have said, it does have some flexibility, but it could possibility be taken as a disruptive edit. Also, I was claiming that your edit at 18:30 and at 18:31 were two edits that were made consecutively and thus only a single revert instead of two separate reverts. But, I will thank you for the reply. --] (]) 16:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}


Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: ].
== "Conspiracy theories in the United States" ==


<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) ] (UTC)</small>
When was adding this category discussed? The only mention of it being labeled a conspiracy theory is not even about the movement itself, it's a single mention by Leigh Alexander, someone involved in the controversy saying some of it is based "on bizarre conspiracy theories", yet another attempt at controlling the narrative, albeit this one a sneaky one. This should be removed until a consensus is reached ] (]) 02:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
*No, the core of GG is described as a conspiracy theory throughout the article's sources (and other reliable sources). I'll put some of the examples at the end to make this more readable, but basically, I think that it's uncontroversial -- obviously most GG sources ''allege'' a conspiracy (accusations of collision and conspiracy are at the core of what they feel are ethical breaches, after all); it's just that they dislike having that framed as 'conspiracy theory' as opposed to, I guess, 'conspiracy fact'. But either way, just a quick look over the article's sources show that most of the ones we're relying on for a general overview describe GG as being based around conspiracy theories (this is just from a random grab of some of them -- I'm not going to read every single one of the 40+ sources, but these are all clearly from reliable publications.) If anything, I think that these make it clear that we should cover the conspiracy-theory nature of the controversy in more detail rather than just via categorization:
** The Verge's article describes "The conspiracy theory at the core of Gamergate..."
** The quoted response from DiGRA likewise describes it as a conspiracy theory.
** The article says: "And ultimately, those members of the gaming community who distrust the games press, have a really wonderful option: make the alternative. Instead of constructing strange conspiracy theories and flooding games sites with vitriolic comments, withdraw entirely."
** The article says: "On one side are calls for reason and equality; on the other are the conspiracy theorists who fund a “documentary” intended to “shed light on the truth: that the SJWs have been the ones using manipulation and intimidation to push their agenda forward and that the mainstream media has accepted their story uncritically.”
** The article: "...I was inundated with angry tweets from the movement’s indignant supporters. You don’t get it, they insisted. This is about ethics in journalism. They often pointed me to long, pretty involved conspiracy theories that seemed to claim, among other things, that various gaming websites were colluding to attack the “gamer” identity they held so dear, or that an indie developer named Zoe Quinn had slept her way to positive coverage."
** describes GG as existing in a "hermetically sealed bubble of conspiracy nonsense".
:There's many more (even the article, which IIRC we're not using at the moment, makes repeated references to the movement being based around conspiracy theories, describing the earliest video as one that "...speculates on a feminist/social justice illuminati that are taking over gaming, and accused Quinn’s parent company, Silverstring Media, of being a part of that conspiracy.") Gamergate's accusations are described as conspiracy theories throughout most of the reliable sources that make up the basis of the current article. --] (]) 03:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


== They/them pronoun confusion ==
{{hat|Hatting off-topic commentary about others and ], both of which violate ], keep it up and there will be sanctions. ] <small>]</small> 08:34, 23 November 2014 (UTC)}}
Again, we have the spectacle of (a) an angry, outraged claim that Gamergate is wronged! This must not stand! This comes from ], who was most recently seen on his own talk page colluding with topic-banned DungeonSiege5whatever. This is followed by ] patiently, exhaustively, definitively, cataloging the many, many sources that compell the categorization. Next, the three remaining un-topic-banned editors and their admin will arrive to say, "but there is doubt! there might not be unanimity! Perhaps we cannot (alas! so sad!) say "conspiracy theory" -- we might say "possible conspiracy theory" or "alleged conspiracy theory as reported in misguided but reliable sources". And we will spend another five thousand words debating the point, wind up again with two or three treks to AN/I and a trip to discretionary sanctions with WikiTrout for all. In the end, as ] usefully captures, New York Magazine describes today at Misplaced Pages precisely: ''' conspiracy theories that seemed to claim, among other things ... that an indie developer named Zoe Quinn had slept her way to positive coverage.''' Enough. This has got to stop. ] (]) 03:20, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
:Mark, I request that you cease this battleground and inflammatory behaviour. The disparity between Aquillion's and your response is telling, Aquillion looked at the sources, while Mark targeted editors who haven't even commented yet! ]] ''']''' 03:53, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
::Mark please calm down, it seems you are attacking people who have not participated in discussion yet. ] (]) 04:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


As someone who is not familiar with gamergate, there are some parts of the article which are confusing because of how Quinn's they/them pronouns are used.
:::We aren't pals, Retartist: it's Dr. Bernstein to you, thank you, or Mark Bernstein if you're a member of the Society of Friends. Thanks. See following comment which applies equally to you.] (]) 04:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
The lead currently contains the following sentence:
::::"I did not hit her! It’s not true! It’s bullshit! I did not! Oh, hi Mark." What? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °) ] (]) 05:01, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
::(edit conflict)The pattern has been unrelenting for days on end. It's really interesting that ] shows up a few minutes after another user, one who makes the same arguments in the same tone, is topic-banned, and complains just after asserting in the section above that he made one revert (I recall two) and that it's perfectly reasonable to change "False sexual allegations" to "Sexual allegations" because they probably did have sex! For crying out loud: do you folks have no decency? This pattern of edits has been unrelenting for days -- one BLP violation followed by an insinuation followed by a slow, slow retreat, fighting every inch of the way. Yes, I'm angry. (No reason to think starship's a sock: we all know they've been coordinating offsite and banned DS apparently defied the topic ban when issued to coordinate their offsite rendezvous). ] (]) 04:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Dr. {{ping|MarkBernstein}}, ''please'' '''stop''' with these insinuations about me. You {{green|recall}} me making two reverts... go and check! You claim that I argued that {{green|it's perfectly reasonable to change "False sexual allegations" to "Sexual allegations"}} - well I did not do that, I was only protesting the labeling of "highly disruptive" to well-meaning editors - I judged that from reading the talk page discussion which seemed reasonable. And just because {{green|they've been coordinating offsite}}, so I'm one of them? A meatpuppet? '''Nope, I am not.''' I am not even a gamer. I've made good contributions to Misplaced Pages... the paranoia leaves me extremely insulted. ]] ''']''' 08:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
:::You seem to be quite angry at this subject, I don't know why. How is me commenting on an user talk "colluding", you know these are serious claims right? That guy was topic-banned for NOTFORUM which is to say least, minor and banning for 90 days is fairly questionable, and I didn't know he was topic-banned when talking to him. In any case, those sources don't label the movement itself as a conpiracy theory, they just state SOME of their claims are, catogorizing the article as a conpiracy theoriy makes the whole controversy sound like a conspiracy theory when there are well documented concerns on the article itself like GameJournosPro and the sites in question acknowledging this, hence multiple policy changes and disclosures. In any case my concern is when was it discussed, when did an editor get approval to add this, it seems like a sneaky attempt at making this more one sided. ] (]) 05:39, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Hey guys, just a suggestion, if you're getting angry just take some time out. Have a break. Go for a walk. Come back when you're a bit more settled. We all get frustrated from time to time but life is too short to get angry editing an article. ] (]) 07:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
{{hab}}


Gamergate began with an August 2014 blog entry called "The Zoe Post" by Quinn's ex-boyfriend, which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of <u>their</u> sexual relationship with a games journalist.
If that many sources use variations on "conspiracy theory" wording that category should probably stay. I think there's less of a case to be made for the "Social Justice" category though. This article is ridiculously out of place in that category page, and that category seems really bizarre for this article. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 05:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
:the relation is the "'''anti''' social justice" motivations and actions as described by as many sources. is "anti social justice" a cat? -- ] 15:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


The sentence gives the impression that it's about a sexual relationship between Quinn, Quinn's ex-boyfried, and a games journalist. I know it's because Quinn's pronouns are they/them but their pronouns haven't been mentioned yet in the text.
The US bit is totally wrong. There's been quite a bit of coverage from British sources, and a reasonable number of nonenglish articles. ]] 16:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


Then their pronouns are mentioned in a footnote, but it's still pretty confusing:
{{edit protected|answered=yes}}
Remove Category:Conspiracy_theories_in_the_united_states and replace with Category:Conspiracy_theories based on the large coverage from nonUS sources and lack of commentry from them saying it's a US topic. ]] 16:16, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
:] '''Not done:''' please establish a ] for this alteration before using the {{tlx|edit protected}} template.<!-- Template:EP --> '''Oppose''' as ] doesn't exist, whereas ] does. — <span class="nowrap">&#123;&#123;U&#124;]&#125;&#125; <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 17:57, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
I meant Remove "Category:Conspiracy_theories_in_the_united_states" and replace with "Category:Conspiracy_theories" based on the large coverage from nonUS sources and lack of commentry from them saying it's a US topic. ]] 20:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
:Funny, I read it the same way as Technical 13. Halfhat, your proposal seems reasonable and has my support. ]] ''']''' 09:21, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
*'''support changing to broader "conspiracy theories" cat''' - i have never met a conspiracy theory that found an international boarder something it didnt want to hop and they nearly all end up with "international bankers" or "CIA and KGB". In this case we have the international scholar organization DIGRA based in Sweden and BMW based in Germany. Sarkeesian is a Canadian American and Quinn live(s)(d) in Canada. Yiannopoulos is British. There seems little that makes this limited to "United States". -- ] 13:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:*'''Agree''' I'm not convinced the category is necessary, but if we are going to have it then the online nature of the movement precludes it from being strictly limited to the United States. ] (]) 18:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


Called "The Zoe Post", it was a lengthy, detailed account of <u>their</u> relationship and breakup that included copies of personal chat logs, emails, and text messages. The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for <u>their</u> sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson, a reporter for the gaming websites Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun.
== Protected edit request on 24 November 2014 (wikilink to Social Justice Warrior) ==


I assume the first "their" is about the relationship between Quinn and Quinn's ex-boyfriend, and that the second "their" is about a relationship between Quinn and Grayson, but the second could still be interpreted as "Quinn's and Quinn's ex-boyfriends" sexual relationship.
{{edit protected|Gamergate controversy|answered=no}}
The phrase "Social Justice Warrior" is used a few times in the article. Would someone mind wikilinking to the article on the phrase? ] (]) 07:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


I think these sentences should be written more clearly (by someone who knows what the sentences are supposed to mean). ] (]) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
:Given that the term has both negative connotations, and is a ], I would think we shouldn't have a separate article on it; as I see it is at AFD, I'd wait to see the result that if the article stays, then a link is fine, but if it's deleted or merged, it is unneeded. --] (]) 07:43, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:I agree. I've tried some very minor rewording - replaced the first "their" with "Quinn's" to read "which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of Quinn's sexual relationship with a games journalist", and removed the "their" from the second to give "The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for a sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson". Hopefully that reads better. - ] (]) 09:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
::Interestingly feminazi does have an article, though it may have just not been nominated for deletion yet. ]] 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::It's been around since the 1990s so has passed the NEO aspect. The article also gives a balanced view on the word's origins and its criticism to give it context and avoid being a POV article. I'm not saying it's perfect but its got more legs to stand on than the "SJW" article presently. --] (]) 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


== Wired article concerning Gamergate and Kamala Harris ==
== Reversion of Halfhat's recent edits in the draft ==


A discussion in ''Wired'' of the playbook that arose during the Gamergate campaign and how it has been used in other contexts '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 00:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
I made (which in retrospect could probably have been less wholesale) because the effect is to remove or downplay references to sexism and misogyny in the characterisation of certain harassment in the article's lead. This is already well attested in the sources and discussed in detail in the body of the article. I would ask all editors, at this well developed stage of editing, to please not make such drastic changes without careful consideration of the facts we are describing. --] 14:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:The intent was to make it more clinical and less emotional. I'll review what I've done to see if I went about it the right way. ]] 14:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::What significant facts did I remove? They seemed to me to convey little other than opinion and emotion, maybe removal was wrong, I probably should have came up with a different wording. ]] 14:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::I think the problem is these . If we want to be more neutral in the wording I think we can do better then just deleting the wording (something like '''widely seen as'' or ''reported as'' etc...) — ] (]) 14:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Yeah, I wasn't too sure what actual information they were trying to convey. ]] 14:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::Trying to describe the nature of the harassment (i.e. gender based threats and insults, with some anti-feminist rhetoric thrown in.) — ] (]) 15:01, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


== Transphobia and attempted outting of Brianna Wu ==
:While we talk this out would you be willing to cut the word severe? I don't see how this at all benefits the conveying of the facts? ]] 15:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::I'm more attached to ''severe'' then I am to ''misogynistic''. The level of harassment is notable (it's probably the only reason this article is on Misplaced Pages.) I think we can do better then ''misogynistic'' though, I read it as a description of the type of harassment, but I realize others read it as a description of intent. — ] (]) 15:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::I'd suggest using gendered. My problem with severe is that it sounds like it's saying how bad it is. We could use weasel words of course. ]] 15:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::only if we toss out what all of the reliable sources have determined. We are not going to do that. -- ] 15:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::I was going to suggest ''gender-based''. Instead of ''severe'' we could use something like {{blue|Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ...}}, but I think we can just go with ''severe'' or ''intense'' I believe either one is used in our sources. For the second edit was thinking we could rewrite {{blue|Often expressly anti-feminist and frequently misogynistic, these attacks heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.}} with {{blue|These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.}}? Trying to avoid assigning motives and stick to the contents of the attacks. Not sure about the word ''rhetoric'' though, I also thought ''sentiment'' might work. Or we could weasel word it a bit and say something like {{blue|These attacks often include what is reported as ...}}, but I'm not a big fan of that. — ] (]) 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::Why would we not cover the motives when the reliable sources do? -- ] 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::I'm actually fine with it as-is. Just trying to suggest alternative wording that I'd also find acceptable. — ] (]) 15:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::For one thing I'm not sure the various new articles really have much weight on the complex issue of intent and motives. It's not been studied in a court of law or widely accepted psychology/sociology papers yet. The words they use are not always suitable for us because they can be more emotionally loaded, this can be used to convey opinion. ]] 16:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::A reason to consider not making a judgement on the motives is because we're trying to write a neutral encyclopedia article on the topic. ] (]) 18:20, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::a ] at Misplaced Pages is one that presents what the reliable sources have determined about the subject. So do you have actually policy based rationale? -- ] 18:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::I'm not new here. You want to include reliable source opinion on the topic, others are arguing, perhaps rightly and perhaps not, that the opinion from reliable sources be left out for neutrality reasons. If that's unreasonable, it's on you to explain why that opinion deserves to be reflected instead of a simple neutral accounting. ] (]) 18:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::If you are not new here, i dont understand why you keep attempting to push the position that "well, even though all of the reliable sources say X, we should say Y instead." ] / ] / ] are all pretty damn clear that that is NOT what we do and NOT how ''we'' achieve "]". Unless you have some sekrit content policy that supports your vision, its not gonna happen and you need to stop wasting everyone's time and all these poor poor pixels. -- ] 19:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Because you are wrong. We don't agree with people. Basically all RSes say Hitler was evil, but we do not. ]] 20:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::back to the "but Hitler!" ? -- ] 21:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm not sure why you're telling me I'm trying to push any position, as I'm not the one trying to make a value judgement on any issue here. Everything you've linked appears to agree with me, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying (since you think I want to go against the sources, which I do not), and your tone here is not helpful or collaborative in nature. ] (]) 20:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I would support your suggestions. {{blue|Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ...}} is not perfect though, "gender-based harassment" is a little ambiguous, but improvement not perfection. How about "harassment targeting her gender"? I don't notice any issues with {{blue|These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.}}
::::::Alright, lets wait for a bit more feedback as I suppose this will be contentions. I'm still a little tepid about "gender-based harassment", I agree it seems ambiguous and I don't want to white-wash or downplay anything. — ] (]) 17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah it's tough to get the balance between not downplaying, and not making them overly loaded. ]] 18:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I believe that gender based harassment would be appropriate. The article should be focused, not based on strong non-neutral wording. ] (]) 19:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:please provide sources that call this "gender based harassment" that are on an equivalent reliability and number as those that use "misogynistic harassment" - otherwise this is going no where. -- ] 19:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::Yeah, I'm pretty luke-warm on the 'gender-based harassment' phrasing (I know I suggested it..) We'd probably be violating ] by using it, and I think we're best leaving it as-is unless someone can come up with better phrasing. If NPOV is a concern then we can always assign the view to the sources instead. I would be interested in feedback for the second suggestion, or maybe that's best left to another section. — ] (]) 19:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::We're not limited to using the exact phrasing from the sources. ]] 20:39, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::While we are not "limited" to the language of the sources, when the sources are OVERWHELMINGLY utilizing particular terminology and similarly overwhelmingly NOT using a particular other terminology, there needs to be some great rationale for us to use the alternative, and some bogus hand wave at "neutrality" is not that rationale - NPOV does not in any way promote "when all of the sources view something as X, we should present it as Y". -- ] 21:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::That's a total strawman. The problem with that term is that it is loaded and implies opinion. ]] 21:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::Sources? -- ] 21:57, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


Should it be added that several proponents of Gamergate attempted to out then stealth trans woman ] as part of the harassment campaign? ] (]) 07:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
I suggest that we stay with the original wording, which is a correct summary of the overwhelming opinion of reliable sources, as expressed in the body of the article. --] 01:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:The problem is that while "severe" harassment can certainly be supported without quotes (we have plenty of reliable documented facts about this), "misogynistic" can't be - that's how its been characterized widely, certainly, but it's also an observation; stating it factually is heading into "weasel word" territory where we would normally need a source to be clear about that, but we really don't want to flood the lead with sources again. The current wording {{green|Quinn was then subjected to severe misogynistic harassment, including false accusations that the relationship had led to positive coverage of Quinn's game. A number of gaming industry members supportive of Quinn were also subjected to harassment, threats of violence, and the malicious broadcasting of personally identifiable information about them (doxxing); some of them fled their homes. The targets were mostly women, and included Quinn, feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, and indie game developer Brianna Wu.}} can be restated without losing anything but staying in a better impartial WP voice for the lead (where we want to avoid anything close to that) with {{green|Quinn was then was falsely accused of using her relationship to receive positive coverage of her game. Simultaneously, she and a number of gaming industry members that supported here against these claims were the subject of a severe harassment campaign by online users under the Gamergate banner, including threats of violence and the malicious broadcasting of personally identifiable information about them (doxxing), and forced some to flee their homes. The targets of this harassment were mostly female, including Quinn, feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, and indie game developer Brianna Wu, leading the industry and international media to broadly condemn the harassment attacks as sexist and misogynistic.}} Note that this clearly states where what we would consider "weasel words" originate from which can clearly be ID'd in the body with sources. All the same info and key words are there, but just where there can be slippage into opinion, it's clear where it came from. --] (]) 02:03, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


== Requested move 5 November 2024 ==
::Gamergate is rooted in misogyny, as borne out by reliable sources. We can't move away from that. ] (]) 02:22, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::That is the press's wide opinion, but only opinion. There is no factual evidence of what started GG. --] (]) 02:24, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, inherit); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top -->
::::Verifiability, not truth. The press says it is rooted in misogyny, we report what they say. ] (]) 03:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''
:::::"Gamergate is misogynistic" and "Gamergate is claimed to by misogynistic" are both verified statements, but one is impartial while the other speaks something that is a clear opinion in WP's voice. --] (]) 03:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::Once again, our articles reflect the mainstream, predominant viewpoint of reliable sources and relegate fringe viewpoints to lesser prominence, if any. It is indisputable that the mainstream, predominant viewpoint about Gamergate is that it's rooted in misogyny. Our article '''must''' reflect that truth. ] (]) 03:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::We reflect balance and weight, but not tone and emotion as we are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. --] (]) 03:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::It is a fact, ] in reliable sources, not a "tone" or "emotion," that Gamergate was rooted in misogyny. ] (]) 04:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::Alleging that Gamergate is rooted in misogyny is using a ] and requires attribution to the source(s). ] (]) 04:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::No, it's not contentious — it's the effectively-unanimous conclusion of reliable sources. Views to the contrary are, at this point, ]. ] (]) 05:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


The result of the move request was: '''Not moved'''. There is a consensus here that the harassment campaign is not a primary topic &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;] (]) 20:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
== Website ==
----
{{hat|]}}
We should add in the article as it is a aggregate website on GamerGate. -]<sup>]</sup> 17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


] → {{no redirect|Gamergate}} – In ] (12 November 2014), there was no consensus to move to Gamergate due to recentism and whether it is the primary topic. In ], there was consensus to move the ant species to use its qualifier. It is now clear that there is no recentism issue, and the hatnote indicates this is the primary topic "GamerGate redirects here. For other uses, see Gamergate (disambiguation)." ] (]) 22:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
:Not a chance, no. It's no different from 8chan, just a forum for interested parties to comment in. Until/unless reliable sources identify a particular website as "Gamergate Headquarters", we're not going to provide incoming linkage to these people. ] (]) 17:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' There is no reason under ] or ] to include it, and plenty of reasons under ] to exclude it (particularly the open wiki that they host.) — ] (]) 17:48, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::Just having an open wiki is not an issue under ELNO as long as the rest of the content is managed/edited. But there's other reasons too under ELNO... --] (]) 22:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


*A nitpick on the "primary topic" bit: ]—that is, ] with 2 capital Gs—redirects here, as nobody writes "GamerGate" when discussing the ant. It doesn't mean that this article is the primary topic. ] is a disambiguation page. Also, there have been 6 move discussions since that 2014 discussion, so I wouldn't put too much stock into just "recentism". They're all under the "Other talk page banners" banner at the top of the page. ] (]) 23:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
:Until it is clearly identified as '''the''' website, and even then, the fact that it might fail ELNO due to possible BLP violations (but we'd have to check at that time). --] (]) 22:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I really don’t think anyone outside of biologists even knows “gamergate” is a type of ant. This isn’t like the infamous ] vs. ] debacle— one’s an obscure technical term and the other is an extremely infamous harassment campaign. ] (]) 00:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
{{hab}}
*:agreed! ] (]) 20:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
== Incoming FTC Guidelines ==
*'''Support''' per nom.--] (]) 19:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
{{hat|]}}
*'''Oppose''' as there is still data coming out about both topics and "obscure" is only of value as a term when used to demote the usage of something outside ones scope of knowledge. Gamergate as a caste of ant social structure is not going to go away at any point. The harassment campaign is over, and as the legacy section shows, each years coverage has moved more and more to basic level "compared to" analogies and a full lack of in-depth conversation. Recentism seems to clearly be applicable here.--]] ] 23:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Apparently FTC is preparing an update to its guidelines and it is being associated to . Is this information relevant to the article, if it gets verified by a trusted outlet or journalist? ] (]) 00:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Woodroar and Kevmin. This gets rehashed frequently, but there's still no policy-based reason to move the article from its current name. We should retain the disambiguation page at ] and keep this page as-is. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 13:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
{{hab}}
*'''Oppose'''. I suppose I'll add an official !vote here. The harassment campaign article currently gets more views than the ant article. And given the campaign's influence on the alt-right and later harassment and disinformation campaigns, I don't see that interest disappearing tomorrow or next year—but I also can't see it staying relevant forever. Every retrospective I've read puts it firmly in the past, not an ongoing event. The ant was named first and gamergate ants will almost certainly outlast the relevance of the harassment campaign, Misplaced Pages itself, and probably humans. I don't think it's a burden for searchers to land at a disambiguation page where they can see options for the harassment campaign and ant, or for the ''Adventure Time'' character or note about ]. I mean, to be fair, the camelcase ] redirect should probably go to the disambiguation page as well, just to help dispel that confusion. ] (]) 17:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*:This won't stay relevant forever, but as long as culture war isn't over, this would be the primary topic in most people's head, and a contentious topic at that. I am hesitant to do a ] here, but I am quite sure culture war will continue for at least 20 years per ], it will be very useful to keep this as primary topic during that time. ] (]) 18:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate. ]] 22:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*:{{tq|nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate}}{{cn}} This seems to sit squarely in statements without data territory. You're saying nobody at all searches for the ant caste by its ''official name''??--]] ] 23:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*::Yeah, Not sure what sort of demographic group is searching for ant castes named Gamergate... unless they knew it was an ant and put (ant) at the end. ]] 05:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::The problem here is that "knowing to put (ant) at the end" is learned behavior for searching and editing on wikipedia, not innate search behavior taught in school or higher education. You are creating a ] that the ant is NOT a search topic ever and using that to endorse your position.--]] ] 19:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Gamergate was a decade ago already, periodically re-upped or mentioned in passing as a historic footnote to the alt-right. The ant is eternal. The "for other uses" at the top likely needs refining is all I would say. And, unrelated to this specifically, the article long ago needed a rewrite. ] (]) 02:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' “the ant will always be relevant” is technically true, but dismissing Gamergate the harassment campaign as just something that will fade away in ''x'' years is ]. If we took this ''ad absurdum'', you could say the primary topic of ''Mario'' being ] is recentism, because ] has been around much longer, but that is obviously silly because there’s only one “Mario” most people are thinking of when they type it in. Similarly, who is seriously searching for information on a type of ant when they look up “gamergate”? None of the first-page hits on DuckDuckGo are for the ant besides its Misplaced Pages page. ] (]) 14:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*:It already has faded away and is referenced in the past tense. It was a thing that happened briefly a decade ago. The people searching Gamergate for ants (or writing thesis, or producing research content, or studying entomology) are the same ones doing it before 2016, and will continue to do so forever because it is, like, science. This does not mean Gamergate ceases to be mentioned, or doesn't generate hits or search results - and why prior consensus agreed on the disambiguation. This is also why the sentence {{tq|In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage (Apple Inc.) and one of primary long-term significance (Apple). In such a case, consensus may be useful in determining which topic, if any, is the primary topic}} exists. Mario meanwhile is covered later by the statement: {{tq|Non-encyclopedic uses of a term are irrelevant for primary topic purposes; for example, ] is about a Korean pop band, despite the existence of the common English word "twice", as the latter is not a topic suitable for an encyclopedic article}} of WP:PRIMARY. ] (]) 21:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*::“Happened in the past” is not a measure of relevance any more than happening in the present is. Is ] irrelevant because it only lasted a few days? Is Randy In Boise’s Junkyard Band relevant because they’re currently touring garages in the vicinity of ]? ] (]) 12:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::It very specifically is a measure of long term relevance as referenced in the example of Apple Inc vs Apple. The significance of coverage of the event confers notability for the creation of an article. After the event, the significance is maintained through repeated coverage. Woodstock (as the given example) has persistent, repeated, significant and notable coverage and new significant material produced about it annually (along with insignificant and non-notable coverage where it is merely referenced). Gamergate as a harassment campaign isn't. Gamergate occasionally comes up in single instances of research, commonly referenced as a precursor to some element of the Alt Right - but the topic itself isn't discussed, rather it is used as a bellwether type event. There are typically articles written from time to time with titles such as "What we didn't learn from Gamergate" etc but there is little meaningful content (either about the victims, the actions, and certainly not the perpetrators beyond the speculative attribution of the thing to a group of people who may or may not be now a part of another thing). In contrast (per example previous) Apple Inc is likely the most searched topic, the most routinely covered and so on - but an Apple is an ], Valve is a ], just as a Gamergate should be a Gamergate. ] (]) 01:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
*::::Except nobody knows what a gamergate ''is'' besides an entomologist. It isn’t even considered a valid word by my spellcheck, i.e, it’s an obscure technical term almost nobody uses. ] (]) 00:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Arguments from incredulity do not really give any traction to your point though (you not looking for the Caste =/= NO ONE searches for the caste). Policy is where changes come from, and as it stands now, there is a continually decreasing amount of novel coverage for the harassment campaign, while the ant caste isn't going to go anywhere an has the lasting persistence of science topics.--]] ] 18:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Bkonrad’s argument directly below is concrete evidence that almost nobody is looking for the ant. The opposes are many, but they’re all based on four main arguments: “]” “]” “]” and “]”; these are all vague and subjective in their importance. ] (]) 07:34, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::Bkonrad’s argument missed all the points the {{yo|KoA}} provided regarding the nuance of flash in the pan events vrs established topics with lasting use in a field. A situation you also are ignoring,--]] ] 19:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::Yes, there is a small population of individuals in a narrow field of study who might use the term with some frequency (some of whom are apparently thin-skinned enough to get bent out of shape that more people are interested in other things). This niche technical term in is dwarfed by the overwhelming disparity in what readers of this encyclopedia are looking for. Any comparison with Apple (fruit) vs Apple (company) is without merit. Nearly every speaker of English knows what the Apple fruit is, even if the company generates more traffic. For gamergate, it is likely less than .01% of English speakers who know about (or might ever think to look up) the ant-related topic. ] ≠ ] 20:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. This is a bit ridiculous. The and show pretty overwhelmingly what readers are looking for in this case and it is not ants. The ants can be added specifically to the hatnote in addition to the dab so readers looking for the ant are still only one click aways just as they would be with the current setup. ] ≠ ] 17:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. ] (]) 00:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''', if we can make a compromise, why not rename the ant article to Gamergate (insect/or ant)? ] (]) 19:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment.''' Nothing that prior to this comment, the other affected page on the ants was never notified. That's an inappropriate ] in terms of notification when comments are being made about the ants while leaving out the audience that would be most knowledgeable about it when discussing ] and focusing instead on only this page's audience instead. I didn't notice this was going on until I stopped over at the disambig page's talk today. I'll put notifications up shortly. ] (]) 19:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*:Idk what that means ] (]) 21:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*::@]; Primary topic grabs typically require multi-page moves, but if they don't, it is still courtesy to notify the other pages listed on the disambiguation. ] (]) 07:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. While this topic certainly still gets mentioned, coverage has declined sharply; it seems silly to suggest that it would be more appropriate as the main article than it was a decade ago when it was in full-swing. --] (]) 20:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose.''' per ]. It's one thing to have the current disambiguation setup, but to call the harassment topic the primary topic would be a huge pardigm shift from previous discussions that isn't reflected here. I'll get into the substance below, but this does feel like a bludgeon for editors at the ant page not wanting to have to deal with a controversial topic. Over the last 10 years, this page has had a lot of controversy over its title and ambiguity on what to call itself to the point moratoriums have been put in place on RMs partially to give the ant topic a break. For the harassment topic to suddenly be the primary, there would have to be something huge that changed that wasn't covered ad nauseum in all the past RMs. Here's the history I had from the last RM below:
*#https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1041117019#Requested_move_20_August_2021
*#https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1039653835#Requested_move_12_August_2021
*#]
*#]
*#] (moratorium put in place on requested moves)
*#]
*#]
*#]
*#]
*#]
*:This initial proposal leaves out a lot of what actually happened in the , but the core issue here is that comments in support aren't really addressing the core issues found in the last move. It wasn't primarily a matter of recentism, but instead rangling with two aspects of PTOPIC:
*#{{tq|A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.}}
*#{{tq|A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.}}
*:For the time being, the harassment campaign has higher views in terms of PT1, but all of our guidance related to views, search hits, etc. have strong cautions against carte blanche use of those stats, especially in terms of ] and our internet audience where internet topics like the harassment topic are going to be more popular. For PT2 though, that's where the ant has a pretty clear case. Previous closes were clear too {{tq|it is apparent that a clear majority of the community would prefer a primary topic in favour of long-term significance}}. Personally I think that puts the ant squarely as the primary topic even when weighing all of that with an even hand. With that said, the harassment campaign over 10 years never had primary topic status, though in the 2021 RM, it was just split down the middle to have a disambiguation page instead of having the ant as the primary topic. That at least did stop the RMs for a time, but I'm not seeing anything here that would suggest that something has majorly changed on that side since 2021.
*:The other issue I'm seeing is the naming of the harassment campaign regardless of the ants. All the RMs I mentioned above show the history of how much the topic title has morphed and been contentious. Calling it the harassment campaign parenthetical seemed to finally settle that down, but undoing that is going to increase the ambiguity again. At the end of the day, the last RM at least made it so no one is astonished. You type Gamergate into the search and you're either going to see the two options you want already Gamergate (ant) or Gamergate (harassment campaign). If you click the first result, you get the disambiguation page which guides you even more. Unless there's a major resurgence of Gamergate-related harassment in coming years that truly adds to the event, it's pretty hard for it to leap-frog two levels up to the definitive primary topic. ] (]) 21:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*::I thought I'd revive a bit I wrote at the last RM that actually focuses on the ant side of things.
*::A gamergate is a worker ant that is able to reproduce, which the article outlines as unique for most ant species. This currently impacts all individuals of species within at least five ] and 17 ] (as opposed to only a of subset of individuals within the species ] for the harassment event). For the ants (or really any biological trait this fixed in multiple species), there is not a ] this million-year+ old trait will just suddenly disappear and stop affecting all of these species. In fact, that CRYSTAL policy specifically calls out such arguments as a violation: {{tq|Although currently accepted scientific paradigms may later be rejected, and hypotheses previously held to be controversial or incorrect sometimes become accepted by the scientific community, it is not the place of Misplaced Pages to venture such projections.}} When scientists name these traits, they are generally also stable in usage ] is a similar example of these terminology being common in biology.
*::Much of this long-term impact is something inherent to ]/biology topics and is why PTOPIC also mentions long-term education aspects being of higher value. On that note, ant gamergates are something that’s likely to come up in biology textbooks when discussing ant colonies since ] animals are often a common example in varying degrees for both kids and college students. It might be a footnote in more basic biology books, but if you get into common intro-level courses at say college, this kind of thing can easily come up in sections dealing with insect diversity.
*::While common usage metrics have consistently been an issue for this discussion, looking at scholarly metrics helps. Google Scholar is well known, but generally not that reliable for things like citation metrics, etc. because they include a lot of non-scholarly sources. is usually a more conservative (scientifically, not political) search engine in that regard. Just typing in gamergate gave 189 articles (49 more than in 2021). Of these, 94 mostly focus on the gamergate ant, and 95 involved the harassment topic. That's giving the harassment topic a handicap since that includes mere mentions of Gamergate in that context in the search parameters. That paints a very different picture than those haphazardly using Google searches. At the least academic attention (or use) isn't any higher for the harassment topic, so you'd be hard pressed to call that the primary topic based on search hits. ] is what really anchors discussion here. ] (]) 21:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per KoA and others, the fact that people are finding the article they are interested in via the disambiguation and also learning about other uses supports retention of status quo. ] (]) 02:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per ]. While the harassment campaign is more notable in tv news and right-wing twitter/X/parler, it is not necessarily so world-wide, and most importantly, in the scholarly literature. See also: . Misplaced Pages is a scholarship-driven institution, and harassment of video game journalists is not any more important than entomology in the world of scholarship. Keep the disambiguation page, and keep these two pages (ant) and (harassment campaign) disambiguated. —&nbsp;] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 18:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Pure pageviews and Google hits are not the sole criterion of primary topics. As per others, mentions of the ants and the harassers are pretty balanced in scholarship, if not having the ants come out on top. Can we put a permanent moratorium on move discussions now? The "harassment campaign" part of the title gives ] editors a good reason to keep attempting this move for the foreseeable future. ] (]) 12:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Leave how the title is and don't change it, or change it to "GamerGate". I'm only speaking for the title, btw. ] • (]&#124;]). 05:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

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Miscellany for deletionDraft:Gamergate controversy was nominated for deletion on 23 June 2017. The result of the discussion was redirect.
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Section sizes
Section size for Gamergate (harassment campaign) (30 sections)
Section name Byte
count		 Section
total
(Top) 7,532 7,532
History 12 24,274
Zoë Quinn and Depression Quest 8,674 8,674
Anita Sarkeesian and Tropes vs. Women in Video Games 4,118 4,118
Brianna Wu 2,212 2,212
Other targets of harassment 4,785 4,785
Coordination of harassment 4,473 4,473
Demographics 1,742 1,742
Organization 6,272 14,948
Harassment and Twitter 2,598 2,598
Efforts to affect public perceptions 3,442 3,442
Targeting advertisers 1,100 1,100
Sad Puppies 1,536 1,536
Purpose and goals 8,967 8,967
Social, cultural, and political impact 3,100 20,723
Gamer identity 6,370 6,370
Misogyny and sexism 6,365 6,365
Law enforcement 4,888 4,888
Gaming industry response 6,868 6,868
Representation in media 3,227 3,227
Reducing online harassment 2,438 2,438
Legacy 10,955 34,355
2015–2018 5,223 5,223
2019 4,618 4,618
2020–2021 4,176 4,176
2022–present 9,383 9,383
See also 180 180
Notes 24 24
References 111,543 111,543
External links 1,105 1,105
Total 237,926 237,926
Reference ideas for Gamergate (harassment campaign)The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Sanctions enforcement

This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived.

All articles related to the Gamergate controversy are subject to discretionary sanctions.

Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRedPenOfDoom (talk • contribs) 21:18, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

They/them pronoun confusion

As someone who is not familiar with gamergate, there are some parts of the article which are confusing because of how Quinn's they/them pronouns are used. The lead currently contains the following sentence: 

Gamergate began with an August 2014 blog entry called "The Zoe Post" by Quinn's ex-boyfriend, which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of their sexual relationship with a games journalist.

The sentence gives the impression that it's about a sexual relationship between Quinn, Quinn's ex-boyfried, and a games journalist. I know it's because Quinn's pronouns are they/them but their pronouns haven't been mentioned yet in the text.

Then their pronouns are mentioned in a footnote, but it's still pretty confusing: 

Called "The Zoe Post", it was a lengthy, detailed account of their relationship and breakup that included copies of personal chat logs, emails, and text messages. The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for their sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson, a reporter for the gaming websites Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun.

I assume the first "their" is about the relationship between Quinn and Quinn's ex-boyfriend, and that the second "their" is about a relationship between Quinn and Grayson, but the second could still be interpreted as "Quinn's and Quinn's ex-boyfriends" sexual relationship.

I think these sentences should be written more clearly (by someone who knows what the sentences are supposed to mean). Paditor (talk) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I've tried some very minor rewording - replaced the first "their" with "Quinn's" to read "which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of Quinn's sexual relationship with a games journalist", and removed the "their" from the second to give "The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for a sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson". Hopefully that reads better. - Bilby (talk) 09:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Wired article concerning Gamergate and Kamala Harris

A discussion in Wired of the playbook that arose during the Gamergate campaign and how it has been used in other contexts Acroterion (talk) 00:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Transphobia and attempted outting of Brianna Wu

Should it be added that several proponents of Gamergate attempted to out then stealth trans woman Brianna Wu as part of the harassment campaign? Turtletennisfogwheat (talk) 07:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 5 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a consensus here that the harassment campaign is not a primary topic  — Amakuru (talk) 20:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Gamergate (harassment campaign) → Gamergate – In /Archive 13#Requested moves (12 November 2014), there was no consensus to move to Gamergate due to recentism and whether it is the primary topic. In Talk:Gamergate (ant)/Archive 3#Requested move 20 August 2021, there was consensus to move the ant species to use its qualifier. It is now clear that there is no recentism issue, and the hatnote indicates this is the primary topic "GamerGate redirects here. For other uses, see Gamergate (disambiguation)." Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 22:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  • A nitpick on the "primary topic" bit: GamerGate—that is, camel case with 2 capital Gs—redirects here, as nobody writes "GamerGate" when discussing the ant. It doesn't mean that this article is the primary topic. Gamergate is a disambiguation page. Also, there have been 6 move discussions since that 2014 discussion, so I wouldn't put too much stock into just "recentism". They're all under the "Other talk page banners" banner at the top of the page. Woodroar (talk) 23:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support I really don’t think anyone outside of biologists even knows “gamergate” is a type of ant. This isn’t like the infamous Bill O’Riley vs. Bill O’Riley debacle— one’s an obscure technical term and the other is an extremely infamous harassment campaign. Dronebogus (talk) 00:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
    agreed! Laugoose (talk) 20:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose as there is still data coming out about both topics and "obscure" is only of value as a term when used to demote the usage of something outside ones scope of knowledge. Gamergate as a caste of ant social structure is not going to go away at any point. The harassment campaign is over, and as the legacy section shows, each years coverage has moved more and more to basic level "compared to" analogies and a full lack of in-depth conversation. Recentism seems to clearly be applicable here.--Kevmin § 23:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Woodroar and Kevmin. This gets rehashed frequently, but there's still no policy-based reason to move the article from its current name. We should retain the disambiguation page at Gamergate and keep this page as-is. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I suppose I'll add an official !vote here. The harassment campaign article currently gets more views than the ant article. And given the campaign's influence on the alt-right and later harassment and disinformation campaigns, I don't see that interest disappearing tomorrow or next year—but I also can't see it staying relevant forever. Every retrospective I've read puts it firmly in the past, not an ongoing event. The ant was named first and gamergate ants will almost certainly outlast the relevance of the harassment campaign, Misplaced Pages itself, and probably humans. I don't think it's a burden for searchers to land at a disambiguation page where they can see options for the harassment campaign and ant, or for the Adventure Time character or note about GamersGate. I mean, to be fair, the camelcase GamerGate redirect should probably go to the disambiguation page as well, just to help dispel that confusion. Woodroar (talk) 17:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
    This won't stay relevant forever, but as long as culture war isn't over, this would be the primary topic in most people's head, and a contentious topic at that. I am hesitant to do a WP:CRYSTAL here, but I am quite sure culture war will continue for at least 20 years per WP:RECENT#WP:20YEARTEST, it will be very useful to keep this as primary topic during that time. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate. Scuba 22:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
    nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate This seems to sit squarely in statements without data territory. You're saying nobody at all searches for the ant caste by its official name??--Kevmin § 23:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
    Yeah, Not sure what sort of demographic group is searching for ant castes named Gamergate... unless they knew it was an ant and put (ant) at the end. Scuba 05:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    The problem here is that "knowing to put (ant) at the end" is learned behavior for searching and editing on wikipedia, not innate search behavior taught in school or higher education. You are creating a strawman argument that the ant is NOT a search topic ever and using that to endorse your position.--Kevmin § 19:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Gamergate was a decade ago already, periodically re-upped or mentioned in passing as a historic footnote to the alt-right. The ant is eternal. The "for other uses" at the top likely needs refining is all I would say. And, unrelated to this specifically, the article long ago needed a rewrite. Koncorde (talk) 02:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment “the ant will always be relevant” is technically true, but dismissing Gamergate the harassment campaign as just something that will fade away in x years is WP:CRYSTAL. If we took this ad absurdum, you could say the primary topic of Mario being the video game character is recentism, because the name itself has been around much longer, but that is obviously silly because there’s only one “Mario” most people are thinking of when they type it in. Similarly, who is seriously searching for information on a type of ant when they look up “gamergate”? None of the first-page hits on DuckDuckGo are for the ant besides its Misplaced Pages page. Dronebogus (talk) 14:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    It already has faded away and is referenced in the past tense. It was a thing that happened briefly a decade ago. The people searching Gamergate for ants (or writing thesis, or producing research content, or studying entomology) are the same ones doing it before 2016, and will continue to do so forever because it is, like, science. This does not mean Gamergate ceases to be mentioned, or doesn't generate hits or search results - and why prior consensus agreed on the disambiguation. This is also why the sentence In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage (Apple Inc.) and one of primary long-term significance (Apple). In such a case, consensus may be useful in determining which topic, if any, is the primary topic exists. Mario meanwhile is covered later by the statement: Non-encyclopedic uses of a term are irrelevant for primary topic purposes; for example, Twice is about a Korean pop band, despite the existence of the common English word "twice", as the latter is not a topic suitable for an encyclopedic article of WP:PRIMARY. Koncorde (talk) 21:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    “Happened in the past” is not a measure of relevance any more than happening in the present is. Is Woodstock irrelevant because it only lasted a few days? Is Randy In Boise’s Junkyard Band relevant because they’re currently touring garages in the vicinity of Ada County? Dronebogus (talk) 12:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
    It very specifically is a measure of long term relevance as referenced in the example of Apple Inc vs Apple. The significance of coverage of the event confers notability for the creation of an article. After the event, the significance is maintained through repeated coverage. Woodstock (as the given example) has persistent, repeated, significant and notable coverage and new significant material produced about it annually (along with insignificant and non-notable coverage where it is merely referenced). Gamergate as a harassment campaign isn't. Gamergate occasionally comes up in single instances of research, commonly referenced as a precursor to some element of the Alt Right - but the topic itself isn't discussed, rather it is used as a bellwether type event. There are typically articles written from time to time with titles such as "What we didn't learn from Gamergate" etc but there is little meaningful content (either about the victims, the actions, and certainly not the perpetrators beyond the speculative attribution of the thing to a group of people who may or may not be now a part of another thing). In contrast (per example previous) Apple Inc is likely the most searched topic, the most routinely covered and so on - but an Apple is an Apple, Valve is a Valve, just as a Gamergate should be a Gamergate. Koncorde (talk) 01:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
    Except nobody knows what a gamergate is besides an entomologist. It isn’t even considered a valid word by my spellcheck, i.e, it’s an obscure technical term almost nobody uses. Dronebogus (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
    Arguments from incredulity do not really give any traction to your point though (you not looking for the Caste =/= NO ONE searches for the caste). Policy is where changes come from, and as it stands now, there is a continually decreasing amount of novel coverage for the harassment campaign, while the ant caste isn't going to go anywhere an has the lasting persistence of science topics.--Kevmin § 18:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
    Bkonrad’s argument directly below is concrete evidence that almost nobody is looking for the ant. The opposes are many, but they’re all based on four main arguments: “it’s too old” “it’s too new” “it’s the status quo” and “the ant is just more worthy”; these are all vague and subjective in their importance. Dronebogus (talk) 07:34, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
    Bkonrad’s argument missed all the points the @KoA: provided regarding the nuance of flash in the pan events vrs established topics with lasting use in a field. A situation you also are ignoring,--Kevmin § 19:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, there is a small population of individuals in a narrow field of study who might use the term with some frequency (some of whom are apparently thin-skinned enough to get bent out of shape that more people are interested in other things). This niche technical term in is dwarfed by the overwhelming disparity in what readers of this encyclopedia are looking for. Any comparison with Apple (fruit) vs Apple (company) is without merit. Nearly every speaker of English knows what the Apple fruit is, even if the company generates more traffic. For gamergate, it is likely less than .01% of English speakers who know about (or might ever think to look up) the ant-related topic. older ≠ wiser 20:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support. This is a bit ridiculous. The page views and wikinav show pretty overwhelmingly what readers are looking for in this case and it is not ants. The ants can be added specifically to the hatnote in addition to the dab so readers looking for the ant are still only one click aways just as they would be with the current setup. older ≠ wiser 17:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Theparties (talk) 00:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support, if we can make a compromise, why not rename the ant article to Gamergate (insect/or ant)? Cburt777 (talk) 19:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment. Nothing that prior to this comment, the other affected page on the ants was never notified. That's an inappropriate WP:VOTESTACK in terms of notification when comments are being made about the ants while leaving out the audience that would be most knowledgeable about it when discussing WP:PTOPIC and focusing instead on only this page's audience instead. I didn't notice this was going on until I stopped over at the disambig page's talk today. I'll put notifications up shortly. KoA (talk) 19:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
    Idk what that means Cburt777 (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
    @Cburt777; Primary topic grabs typically require multi-page moves, but if they don't, it is still courtesy to notify the other pages listed on the disambiguation. Sennecaster (Chat) 07:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. While this topic certainly still gets mentioned, coverage has declined sharply; it seems silly to suggest that it would be more appropriate as the main article than it was a decade ago when it was in full-swing. --Aquillion (talk) 20:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. per WP:PTOPIC. It's one thing to have the current disambiguation setup, but to call the harassment topic the primary topic would be a huge pardigm shift from previous discussions that isn't reflected here. I'll get into the substance below, but this does feel like a bludgeon for editors at the ant page not wanting to have to deal with a controversial topic. Over the last 10 years, this page has had a lot of controversy over its title and ambiguity on what to call itself to the point moratoriums have been put in place on RMs partially to give the ant topic a break. For the harassment topic to suddenly be the primary, there would have to be something huge that changed that wasn't covered ad nauseum in all the past RMs. Here's the history I had from the last RM below:
    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1041117019#Requested_move_20_August_2021
    2. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1039653835#Requested_move_12_August_2021
    3. Talk:Gamergate_(ant)/Archive_1#Requested_move_28_December_2015
    4. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_45#Requested_move_30_August_2015
    5. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_46#Requested_move_20_September_2015 (moratorium put in place on requested moves)
    6. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_32#How_about_calling_this_article_.22GamerGate.22
    7. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_30#.22Movement.22_or_.22Controversy.22
    8. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_28#Requested_move_14_February_2015
    9. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_13#Requested_moves
    10. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_37#Requested_move_15_May_2015
    This initial proposal leaves out a lot of what actually happened in the last RM, but the core issue here is that comments in support aren't really addressing the core issues found in the last move. It wasn't primarily a matter of recentism, but instead rangling with two aspects of PTOPIC:
    1. A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
    2. A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.
    For the time being, the harassment campaign has higher views in terms of PT1, but all of our guidance related to views, search hits, etc. have strong cautions against carte blanche use of those stats, especially in terms of WP:NWFCTM and our internet audience where internet topics like the harassment topic are going to be more popular. For PT2 though, that's where the ant has a pretty clear case. Previous closes were clear too it is apparent that a clear majority of the community would prefer a primary topic in favour of long-term significance. Personally I think that puts the ant squarely as the primary topic even when weighing all of that with an even hand. With that said, the harassment campaign over 10 years never had primary topic status, though in the 2021 RM, it was just split down the middle to have a disambiguation page instead of having the ant as the primary topic. That at least did stop the RMs for a time, but I'm not seeing anything here that would suggest that something has majorly changed on that side since 2021.
    The other issue I'm seeing is the naming of the harassment campaign regardless of the ants. All the RMs I mentioned above show the history of how much the topic title has morphed and been contentious. Calling it the harassment campaign parenthetical seemed to finally settle that down, but undoing that is going to increase the ambiguity again. At the end of the day, the last RM at least made it so no one is astonished. You type Gamergate into the search and you're either going to see the two options you want already Gamergate (ant) or Gamergate (harassment campaign). If you click the first result, you get the disambiguation page which guides you even more. Unless there's a major resurgence of Gamergate-related harassment in coming years that truly adds to the event, it's pretty hard for it to leap-frog two levels up to the definitive primary topic. KoA (talk) 21:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
    I thought I'd revive a bit I wrote at the last RM that actually focuses on the ant side of things.
    A gamergate is a worker ant that is able to reproduce, which the article outlines as unique for most ant species. This currently impacts all individuals of species within at least five subfamilies and 17 genera (as opposed to only a of subset of individuals within the species Homo sapiens for the harassment event). For the ants (or really any biological trait this fixed in multiple species), there is not a reasonable doubt this million-year+ old trait will just suddenly disappear and stop affecting all of these species. In fact, that CRYSTAL policy specifically calls out such arguments as a violation: Although currently accepted scientific paradigms may later be rejected, and hypotheses previously held to be controversial or incorrect sometimes become accepted by the scientific community, it is not the place of Misplaced Pages to venture such projections. When scientists name these traits, they are generally also stable in usage Mermithergate is a similar example of these terminology being common in biology.
    Much of this long-term impact is something inherent to WP:SCHOLARSHIP/biology topics and is why PTOPIC also mentions long-term education aspects being of higher value. On that note, ant gamergates are something that’s likely to come up in biology textbooks when discussing ant colonies since eusocial animals are often a common example in varying degrees for both kids and college students. It might be a footnote in more basic biology books, but if you get into common intro-level courses at say college, this kind of thing can easily come up in sections dealing with insect diversity.
    While common usage metrics have consistently been an issue for this discussion, looking at scholarly metrics helps. Google Scholar is well known, but generally not that reliable for things like citation metrics, etc. because they include a lot of non-scholarly sources. Web of Science is usually a more conservative (scientifically, not political) search engine in that regard. Just typing in gamergate gave 189 articles (49 more than in 2021). Of these, 94 mostly focus on the gamergate ant, and 95 involved the harassment topic. That's giving the harassment topic a handicap since that includes mere mentions of Gamergate in that context in the search parameters. That paints a very different picture than those haphazardly using Google searches. At the least academic attention (or use) isn't any higher for the harassment topic, so you'd be hard pressed to call that the primary topic based on search hits. WP:PT2 is what really anchors discussion here. KoA (talk) 21:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per KoA and others, the fact that people are finding the article they are interested in via the disambiguation and also learning about other uses supports retention of status quo. Shyamal (talk) 02:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:PTOPIC. While the harassment campaign is more notable in tv news and right-wing twitter/X/parler, it is not necessarily so world-wide, and most importantly, in the scholarly literature. See also: Ngrams for GamerGate vs Gamergate vs gamergate. Misplaced Pages is a scholarship-driven institution, and harassment of video game journalists is not any more important than entomology in the world of scholarship. Keep the disambiguation page, and keep these two pages (ant) and (harassment campaign) disambiguated. — Shibbolethink 18:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Pure pageviews and Google hits are not the sole criterion of primary topics. As per others, mentions of the ants and the harassers are pretty balanced in scholarship, if not having the ants come out on top. Can we put a permanent moratorium on move discussions now? The "harassment campaign" part of the title gives WP:SPA editors a good reason to keep attempting this move for the foreseeable future. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment: Leave how the title is and don't change it, or change it to "GamerGate". I'm only speaking for the title, btw. Tonkarooson • (📭|Edits). 05:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Categories: