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| title= ISIS not the Islamic state it fiercely claims to be
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{{Old moves
| list =
*See ''Older discussions'' (below this list) for a list of twelve earlier requested moves and discussions.
* ] '''Agreed''' 14 Aug – 19 Sep 2015
* RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → ISIS, '''Not moved''', 20 Oct – 27 Oct 2016, ]
* RM ] → ] '''Technical Close''' 4–23 July 2017, ]
* RM ] → ] '''Moved'''. 30 August – 22 September 2021.
* RM ] → ] '''Not moved'''. 18 May – 26 May 2022.
| oldlist =
# Islamic State of Iraq and Syria → Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, '''Moved''', 13 August 2013, ]
# RM, Islamic State '''in''' Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, '''Not moved''' (but moved back to "Islamic State '''of''' Iraq and the Levant"), 12 June 2014, ]
# RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → The Islamic State, '''No consensus''', 29 June 2014, ]
# RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, '''Procedurally closed''', 31 July 2014, ]
# RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State, '''Not moved''', 8 August 2014, ]
# Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State (organization), '''Quick close''', 20 August 2014, ]
#Content discussion, References in the text: ISIS or ISIL?, '''ISIL chosen''', 17 Sept – 26 Sept 2014, ]
# RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State, '''Not moved''', 7 Sept – 30 Sept 2014, ]
# RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State (Organisation), '''No consensus''', 17 Sep – 3 Oct 2014, ]
# RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State (islamist rebel group), '''No consensus''', 9 Jan – 17 Jan 2015, ]
# RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State, '''Not moved''', 19 Apr – 20 Apr 2015, ]
# RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State (IS), '''Not moved''', 15 Jul – 29 Jul 2015, ]}}
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#]; 13 August '''2013'''; ] → ]; Moved
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{{old move|date=14 December 2024|destination=Islamic State (militant group)|result=not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1264338464#Requested move 14 December 2024}}
==What has happened to the maps?==
One of the maps usefully showed the borders of Iraq, Syria and neighbouring countries. Why has this gone? Editors may be familiar with this part of the Middle East, but what about readers who may not be? This article is being written for WP readers, after all. Every map used by the media always shows the different countries clearly marked, why not this article? It seems like common sense to follow their good example. The maps will make no sense to readers who do not know where the Iraq-Syria border is. ~ ] (]) 22:36, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
:{{ping|P-123}} which map do you mean? A link to that will help our discussion. ] (]) 00:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
::]: I could not find it. On 2 November I thanked the editor who put in the borders, but his map does not show up on versions of the page around that date. It was in one of the Lead infoboxes. ], can you help? It was one of Spesh's maps. ~ ] (]) 01:14, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}
] map edit history is as follows.
*{{Yo|Spesh531}} "update 11/1/2014 labels"
*{{Yo|RobiH}} label contents as already presented in NPOV form under the map were changed and unnecessarily added to the map: "other Syrian rebels" was changed to "Syrian rebel groups", "Syrian government" was changed to "Assad Regime (Syria)", "Iraqi government" was changed to "Iraq/Shia Army" and reference to the Kurds was edited out. There was also an additional ref of "Israel occupied Syria" added which, for once, actually mentions Israel in reference to, IMO, legitimate wrong. Never-the-less I'd suggest that this is content that is most constructively developed elsewhere in Misplaced Pages.
*{{Yo|Legacypac}} "Reverted to version as of 23:02, 1 November 2014 - terrorist friendly labels included, seek consensus before making such changes"
*@] "update"
(I'd suggest a use of the format as of edits by Spesh53 and Legacypac). At least this is what I was going to suggest b4 realising that the map is used on a great number of pages where local languages may not even use Latin script. ] ] 03:56, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
: is the map I was referring to. (First one in the list above.) Why was it discontinued? What are the terrorist-friendly labels? I asked for the borders to be put in, and then the map suddenly appeared, was there for a while and disappeared, I am not sure when. ~ ] (]) 08:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
::Why? See . The addition of English headings may not be appreciated by many users across the entire encyclopedia. Lables and and timings are covered in comments above. ] ] 15:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
:::The RobiH version minimized the Iraq/Syria border and splashed Islamic State across the gray zone. It also highlighted Golan heights bright blue and other problems in the legend. It looks like an ISIL propaganda publication. ] (]) 16:55, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
::::]: I don't understand. The RobiH version isn't the one I am talking about. You say the addition of English headings may not be appreciated ... but why cannot one version of the map I linked to be given the English titles and be used just in this article? I am probably being naïve, but why is everything so darned complicated in Misplaced Pages? ~ ] (]) 02:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::]: Belated thanks for providing that list. ~ ] (]) 02:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::Greg said the English headings might be an issue, not me. Each version is saved over the others. Maybe we could save the version we like with English labels as a new file name and use it. Of course anyone could overwrite that file too, but we can police that. The other issue is the map gets updated occasionally, so this article would have to rely on the English version being updated as well as the "no words" version. The no words version has an attached key in many languages. ] (]) 08:01, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Good, if that can be achieved without too much difficulty, as readers would be helped greatly if they had a map that clearly shows the borders, IMO. ~ ] (]) 10:15, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::I've raised a question at ] regarding a potential development of a parallel file for an image of the map but adapted with English headings. There may also be other editors that could do this or be involved. I don't personally have a clue. ] ] 05:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to thank who ever updated the map to include the Sinai peninsula and derna --] (]) 07:53, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

==Pro-ISIL and anti-ISIL==
There is recently much talk of editors being "pro-ISIL" and "anti-ISIL". What do these two terms mean, exactly? ~ ] (]) 09:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The terms "anti-ISIL" and "pro-ISIL" have not appeared in the talk page and archive that much. Here are the instances:
* ] "anti-ISIL propaganda"
* ] "the views of anti-ISIL Muslims"
* ] "anti-ISIL propaganda"
* P-123 "this article is anti-ISIL from the word go."
* P-123 "profound anti-ISIL POV"
* ] "pro-ISIL positions that can't be substantiated"
* ] ""pro-isil" you are talking about were probably atheist to or even christians."
Any answers? ] ] 04:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

::To me, "anti-ISIL" means criticism of ISIL placed prominently in the article. This was a problem before but is now resolved, except in the Lead, where to me the second paragraph looks like an attack on ISIL before the article has started. Others may think differently. Neutral presentation of facts has sometimes been seen as being "pro-ISIL", but being neutral must not be mistaken for whitewashing ISIL. Are there other views or is this subject not worth examining? ] (]) 12:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
:::Pro-ISIL is presenting the ISIL narrative as factual - other then where we specifically say "ISIL claims xyz" or "so called" followed by appropriate qualifications. That starts with statements suggesting they are a sovereign state. As for criticisms - we can't accurately deal with ISIL without placing the criticisms next to the claims because 99% of the world does not like virtually every ISIL actions. ] (]) 18:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
::::] blindly undermining about anything they claim or say is just stupid and ignores the facts which wikipedia should mention without caring if its look like "pro-isil". facts are facts and they stay facts whether you are against the IS or not, and wikipedia should reflect those facts instead of the editor's personal feelings about some group. --] (]) 21:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::] Infering that someone is blind and stupid is an abuse of talk page privilege. You should strike your ]. Please read and absorb the related content in policy. Please can all editors stand up to these abuses and help build a more collegiate approach to discussion on the page. ] ] 06:12, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::''''
:::::ha we need to state real facts, not ISIL fictions as fact. ] (]) 05:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::I agree with ]. Qualifying ''facts'', that they are now a caliphate and Islamic state – this is what happened on 29 June, these are ''events'' – to me is "anti-ISIL" POV and flouts ]. If I said something about a person named Jane, I would not say, "Jane - or she calls herself Jane, or she self-declares as Jane - did this." That would be crazy. To use "self-declared" with ISIL is as crazy as that, IMO! ] (])

I find the terms anti-ISIL and pro-ISIL to be quite inappropriate. It basically moves from the language of NPOV and uses discrimination language.

There are legitimate points of view in regard to these issues. There is the point of view of 'SIL and its supporters and there is the point of view of non-'SIL supporters in, for instance, the wider Islamic world. Which view do we represent. Neither! We just say what each side claims. We don't say that they are '''the''' worldwide caliphate and we don't say that they are not. We say that this is what they claim to be and we say that others disagree. We don't take sides in our presentation of article content. That would be POV. If we said in Misplaced Pages's voice and in line with a large content of criticism that they were not a caliphate then that would be POV. If we stated in Misplaced Pages's voice that they are a caliphate then that would also be POV. Why do people find this so hard to understand. ] ] 19:25, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
:*The term "anti-ISIL" was first used to describe a phenomenon that appeared on the Talk page some time ago, a phenomenon that looked to me and some other editors like "anti-ISIL" POV. As usual, these are matters of opinion. I am not suggesting these two terms should be used, only that they should be examined carefully now that they have arisen. There is absolutely no doubt there is a clear divide among editors about what ] means and those two terms appear to me to describe that divide quite well. ] (]) 22:47, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
]
:::I personally think that the image placed on the right is a suitable encapsulation of clear fundamentals of ]. NPOV is a guideline to ensure that article content is balanced and not skewed towards any one point of view. For instance, when there is disputed content we do not take a ] approach in article content and present opinion as facts. We quote what people say and let the reader decide. ] ] 02:35, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
:]: Why do you always call ISIL 'SIL? I think in the context of this discussion this is quite a relevant question. ~ ] (]) 22:47, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
:::For similar reasons as we have covered on my talk page. The article states, "Many object to using the name "Islamic State" owing to the far-reaching religious and political claims to authority which that name implies". I am one of them. This group kills people who go to Mosques (sometimes who preach at mosques), who read the Quran and, from their own POV, are trying to be Muslim.
:::*So editors are right: you are anti-ISIL. Editors are supposed to edit neutrally. Private opinions should not affect editing. ] (]) 10:30, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
:::The word ] is based on the word ] which has a generally understood meaning of ]. I am not anti-'SIL and certainly not so as a group of individuals. I wish them all happy and peaceful lives within a wish that they might live up to the root meaning of their proclaimed name.
:::Names mentioned in the article that have variously been recommend for use include, "Al-Qaeda Separatists in Iraq and Syria" or "QSIS", and 'Un-Islamic State' (UIS). I chose my own wording in the context of an article talk page, other people choose theirs. We all treat issues and editors with respect as we do so. ] ] 02:56, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
::::]: You say, "If we stated in Misplaced Pages's voice that they are a caliphate then that would also be POV." Please explain exactly how. A fact is a fact, is it not? It is not for Misplaced Pages to decide whether facts are "true". All it can do is record them neutrally, and record the different views about those facts. To me that is what NPOV means. ~ ] (]) 22:47, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::] I really do not understand what you mean when you say: It is not for Misplaced Pages to decide whether facts are "true". Of course it is. Caliphate is an extremely loaded term. Please justify that your view that it is a fact that 'SIL, a group that many consider to be unIslamic, is a caliphate. Still such a view should only be used in Misplaced Pages's voice if accepted without qualification in the majority of instances in RS. I personally think that, in addition, it should also only be used if it is found to fulfil the various conditions that are ascribed to the formation of a caliphate yet Misplaced Pages rejects this as OR. As it is we go on balance on what is used in sources. We don't push POV. ] ] 03:53, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
:::Please see: Results from and ] "'''Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts.'''...". Please also note that 'SIL do not just claim to be "a caliphate" but the caliphate within the context of our time. They fight people who also have a Mohammedan based faiths and these people contest the groups claimed religious authority with bullets. Under the guidance of ] we can't pick a side. See image above. In the presentation of article content no editor should side with one POV. ] ] 03:10, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
::::The full quote from ] is: "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. '''If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter,''' treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements." Which reliable sources make conflicting assertions about ISIL, being a caliphate, Islamic state, etc? All reliable sources speak out unanimously against ISIL and its claims. ] (]) 10:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
:] I agree that reliable sources speak out against "ISIL" and its claims. As you know the majority of the times in which RS mention this group in conjunction with the word caliphate, they also relate it with word and phrases like declared, proclaimed, so-called or claimed amongst others. They do much as we do. 'SIL's claim of authority over Muslims worldwide has been roundly rejected by Muslims worldwide. In views of the example of RS and of Muslim opinion it would be a gross violation of NPOV to declare, in an unqualified way, the group as caliphate. ] ] 19:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
::But following RS on this is following opinion, isn't it? Surely WP should say "This is the fact, but RS sources question it", shouldn't it? To keep strictly NPOV? ] (]) 20:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
:::] In the lead we state the fact, as reported, that "On 29 June 2014, the group proclaimed a ]". We declare this fact, in this case through the use of the root word "claim", in much the same way as is done in RS. Caliphate is not just a word like dictatorship. There are far wider implications of its use. This is an area that is open to research and I would be interested in findings. I'd suggest a start might be via Scholar: or just (The neutrality of sources should also be checked where possible with regard to such things as academic critique). I do not think that we should merely rubber stamp the things that 'SIL are saying. However, if we were to do this then it imperative that we are clear on the implications of what we are saying. In the meantime it seems clear to me that the groups claimed authority over the ] (which includes people that they are fighting) is not being widely accepted.
:::None-the-less, sources that Misplaced Pages labels as RS remain as our guide. If the majority of RS sources accept the group as being caliphate without giving qualification to the statement then fair enough. If not then we cannot push a POV. ] ] 03:06, 19 December 2014 (UTC)]
::::To say that stating facts as facts is pushing POV turns all logic and reason on its head and is ludicrous, IMO. No amount of words will persuade me otherwise. I cannot understand why all this has to be made so complicated. WP has to state facts neutrally and RS should be used to show what the world thinks of those facts. That is the way WP normally operates. Why should a big exception to this rule be made here? ] (]) 08:53, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::] says, "I really do not understand what you mean when you say: It is not for Misplaced Pages to decide whether facts are "true". Of course it is." I cannot believe I have just read that, after all the many discussions among editors about what a Misplaced Pages article is. For the umpteenth time: Wikipaedia is an encyclopaedia. An encyclopaedia is principally a compendium of facts. It reports the controversies about those facts. Wikpedia is not a history-book. A history-book principally interprets events and facts. Deciding whether facts are "true", i.e. ''interpretation'', is the domain of history-writing, not encyclopaedias. If this very simple distinction cannot be grasped, there really is no hope for this article making it as good encyclopaedic content. For the nth time, Wikipaedia states facts. The fact is that ISIL proclaimed a caliphate on 29 June 2014 and has renamed itself the Islamic State, thereby setting up an Islamic state. Those facts should be reported as facts. The near universal rejection of the newly-set up caliphate and Islamic state, as not being a "true" caliphate, is ;a ''judgment'' on that fact, and should be reported by Misplaced Pages as just that, a ''judgment'', with Reliable Sources to back up that judgment. This is the umpteenth restatement of this principle, and I cannot believe it is still not getting through. ] (]) 14:44, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::] also says, "Please justify your view that it is a fact that 'SIL, a group that many consider to be unIslamic, is a caliphate." That is easy. Because in June they established themselves as a caliphate: ''fact.'' It was a news item, a fact, an event. Any judgment on whether it is a true caliphate is secondary to this being the basic fact. ] (]) 17:14, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::] One thing that I think is a very true statement is that a judgement would need to be made to be made to decide whether it is a true caliphate. If it isn't a true caliphate then Misplaced Pages cannot declare in Misplaced Pages's voice that it is a caliphate. All we can do is state the clear facts. The group declared themselves as caliphate and this declaration was reported in secondary sources. The fact remains that, when RS talk about 'SIL in reference to the word caliphate, they typically do so with some form of qualification such as declared or similar.
:::::::'SIL declared themselves as caliphate. So what? Misplaced Pages only uses ] sources in situations in which claims have been substantiated and verified within secondary sources that are proven to be reliable. I could declare myself Pope but this would not mean that I was Pope. There is only one Pope. There is only meant to be one caliphate. Is that 'SIL? We may all have our opinions but as far as the making of direct statements to say either that 'SIL definitely '''is not''' caliphate or that 'SIL definitely '''is''' caliphate - this is not for you, me, editors or the group to decide. Within editing we have to see which claims are substantiated and verified and which claims are unsubstantiated and unverified. Its only the first category of content that we state to be factual in Misplaced Pages's voice and this, only if uncontested. Content comes from what here are called reliable sources. Many journalists use qualification when describing 'SIL in terms of caliphate and they do this even though, I suspect, many of them may not have had relevant theological training. To make a move to state in Misplaced Pages's voice that they either are or they aren't a caliphate we would benefit from strong neutral and unopposed theological comment as reported in reliable sources. So far notable comments given from Sunni as well as Shia believers is that the group are un-Islamic. ] ] 18:18, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::There is no need to complicate a very simple situation with those kind of arguments. The very simple situation is that ISIL declared itself a caliphate, a caliphate was established, it declared itself the Islamic State, an Islamic state was established. Those are ''FACTS'' and ''EVENTS''. When Misplaced Pages announces in its own voice those ''facts'' - think of them as items in a news bulletin - for that news bulletin it does not ''matter'' what the world said. What the world said, "They are not a true caliphate", etc, is a judgment on those facts, is commentary. What the world said has to be reported in Misplaced Pages as what they are, judgments and opinions and commentary on those ''facts'' that happened in June. How is this very simple point so difficult to understand? ] (]) 19:02, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::It is ''not'' Misplaced Pages's place to discriminate between the differing views and see which are substantiated, which are unsubstantiated, and which ones to use for its own statements. That would be Misplaced Pages making judgments. That sort of discrimination is for historians to make, not encyclopaedias. Again, a very simple point. ] (]) 19:20, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::There is no need to go beyond established fact, that the group proclaimed itself as caliphate, and then go into opinion so as to state that they either are or aren't a caliphate. We do not do this in Misplaced Pages's voice unless views are substantiated. Otherwise it is nothing more than editor's POV. One way or another there would need to be substantiation from reliable sources. I suggest that the sources that we should really look to should be those of ]. ] my arguments are based on ]. This policy, as and when handled correctly, presents necessary complications. We all work by the same rules and they should be followed with similar measure in all situations. ] ] 08:33, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::<s>At ''last''.</s> ] (]) 09:19, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Yes at last. We don't use Misplaced Pages's voice to state that they are or aren't caliphate until this gets established one way or another. ] ] 15:41, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::I just stumbled on this: "Some radical Islamists have criticized ISIS for declaring a caliphate without first obtaining the unanimous consent of the nation’s scholars of religion. If Baghdadi is to be a caliph for all Muslims, then is it enough for him to obtain the consent of all scholars of Iraq and Syria – assuming that even this could happen to begin with?"
::::::::::::"In turn, a member of the Abdullah Azzam Brigades weighs in. He told Al-Akhbar, “There is no good in declaring a caliphate under these circumstances; it is something that has evil consequences, which means it is invalid.”" Source: http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/20378 . ] ] 18:00, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Just like all the other criticisms of the caliphate, in the "Criticism" section. WP cannot pick and choose which view to follow. It should state facts, i.e. those events on 29 June. My point was clearly completely lost on you. ] (]) 20:51, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

==No nation recognizes ...==
The article still asserts in the "Criticism" section, "No nation recognises the group as a sovereign state." Whether or not that is true is not the issue, the issue is that an assertion like that in WP's own voice does need a citation, otherwise it looks like ] by Misplaced Pages, which Misplaced Pages has to guard against. Can a Reliable Source be found to back up this statement? The wikilink to the diplomatic recognition article though useful does not help to prove anything, as it is only an explanation of the mechanism by which sovereign state recognition works. There was some discussion about this before and for the newer editors perhaps Legacypac could restate his reason for leaving this sentence uncited. ] (]) 16:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
:Obviously this is linked to discussion #1 on sovereign states, which is why I brought it up. ] (]) 17:11, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

::a) its is an undeniably true statement - diplomatic recognition generally confers statehood and that is a big deal. No one has provided one source that suggests otherwise.

::b) the US President sai it in an address heard round the world. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/10/statement-president-isil-1 4th paragraph. "ISIL is certainly not a state. It was formerly al Qaeda’s affiliate in Iraq, and has taken advantage of sectarian strife and Syria’s civil war to gain territory on both sides of the Iraq-Syrian border. It is '''recognized by no government''', nor by the people it subjugates. ISIL is a terrorist organization, pure and simple. And it has no vision other than the slaughter of all who stand in its way."

::c) Here is a legal scholor: http://warontherocks.com/2014/07/the-islamic-state-isnt-a-legal-examination/#_

::d) When the head of the UN says “Un-Islamic Nonstate” why is anyone debating this?

::] (]) 17:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

:::Thanks for that. You say "its an undeniably true statement ... No one has provided one source that suggests otherwise." Absence of proof is not proof of anything. It is a classic ]. One cannot say something is true ''because'' it has not been proved to be false.You quoted Obama as though he were infallible on this point, but is he really? Has his department researched this? Whether or not, his statement could be cited to support the sentence, as the US's view on it. As for legal scholars, they notoriouly disagree on the interpretation of legal points! Ban Ki-Moon, again, is just stating the UN's position on this. The most that can approximately be said, using all those sources, is "Nations, international bodies such as the UN and legal experts do not recognize the group as a sovereign state". That would be accurate. I think the wording should be adjusted accordingly along those lines, perhaps with some more citations of the type quoted (countries that have specifically said this, for example) to back it up. ] (]) 18:43, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
::::Legacypac has asked me to remove my above response, but I think this is an important point. I do not see how his examples verify the sentence "No nation recognizes the group as a sovereign state". The way the idea is expressed at the moment is an example of ] by Misplaced Pages, in my view. ] (]) 22:34, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::As a move forward I have added the second link to the text as follows: <nowiki>No nation ] the group as a ].</nowiki> A link was already made to ] and there are other sources on this topic available. Misplaced Pages also has a list of ] and I presume that it would be perfectly possible to check the situations surrounding changes in recognition statuses. ], can I ask the extent have you checked through the issues surrounding this subject before raising the thread here? You previously said to me that you thought I would doubt that "the cat sat on the mat". There is certainly no indication of state like recognition. Can you demonstrate a form of circumstances in which a valid form of recognition, if those are the right words, may have occurred? If you can do this then this would help your argument. There has got to be some form of substantiation in this debate or we may just end up pushing opinions. ] ] 01:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::My main point really isn't complicated, Greg. This isn't a "cat sat on the mat" issue. Forget for a minute the question whether they are or are not a sovereign state. Forget my quibble about the logic. Just concentrate on the wording. "No nation recognises the group as a sovereign state." Who says? Without a firm citation, WP does, and it cannot do that, per ]. Either find some RS which say that ''categorically'' and report it accordingly, or rejig the sentence in the way I have said, with supporting citations. Am I making sense? ] (]) 02:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
{{outdent|6}} Certainly we need ] to express that sentence and as you know, we can't write our own conclusion and understanding from reading the sources. As ] said, "No nation recognizes the group as a sovereign state," needs a citation. But the question is that, what sources are eligible to say such a thing? ] (]) 03:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
:If a nation gave recognition to 'SIL as being a sovereign state then this, I think, would be an extremely newsworthy event. I think that there would be particular controversy amongst the Arab nations. Perhaps we can add a footnote to say something along the lines of "as reported". Any reader going to the list of states with limited recognition would look at an entry and be likely to say there are this many states recognising and that number not recognising.
:The ] argument logically only goes so far. It may be difficult to say for sure that there is no masked intruder somewhere in an otherwise empty building. However, if the building was full of alert individuals with good communications or if there was an alarm system in an empty building then it would be obvious whether or not there was an intruder present. I think that the same is the case in this situation. (If it were a subject worth reporting we might even know whether cats were on mats. In comparison the issue of whether 'SIL has been recognised as a sovereign state is extremely reportable.
:For instance WP:OR states that: the statement "the capital of France is Paris" needs no source. Similarly I think editors can justifiably write that, for instance, the airplane ] is not in service or that no nation recognises 'SIL as a Sovereign State. We check the news and know that concord has not been brought back into service and that there are still no nations giving recognition. ] ] 06:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
::::''''
:::* ]: You say "the issue of whether 'SIL has been recognised as a sovereign state is extremely reportable." If it is, can we have some examples of countries or international organisations which have said they do not recognize ISIL as a sovereign state, apart from the US and the UN? Those are the sort of examples needed to back up this sentence (see below). I don't know how to search the web for this. How is it done? Don't want to keep asking you to do jobs we could perhaps do ourselves! I don't think for this particular sentence we need bother our heads whether or not ISIL are a sovereign state, do we? We just go by what the Reliable Sources say about it, i.e. "Country X says that they do not recognize ISIL as a sovereign state". No need for exotic cats on exotic mats in this particular instance, I think. {{P|:)}} ] (]) 18:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
::This would not even be a debate except that ISIL calls themselves the "Islamic State" and asserts all other governments are void when the IS armies arrive. It is truly a crazy thing to say - and has been declared not true by POTUS, the UN Sec Gen, about 60 nations agreeing to destroy ISIL and by the legitimate governments of the countries in which they hold territory. The sources provided are beyond definitive on the topic. ] (]) 06:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
:::<s>Yes, it is as simple as Legacypac says. Just a few more RS examples of countries that do not recognize are needed. As I said before, those along with the other sources Legacypac gave would be enough back-up, problem solved.</s>

:::I shouldn't have brought up the logical fallacy point, as it was a ]. I had little doubt "no nation recognizes", just took exception to the illogical assertion that because there is no evidence to the contrary, that must be true. Sorry to have been such a pedant about it. {{P|:(}} ] (]) 09:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I certainly think that there is merit in the raising of the issue. I'd also broach the question as to whether the addition of a footnote may add qualification. An explanation of the permitted type of OR used may, I think show the extent of assumptions made. Yes I've mentioned assumptions and think that assumptions can fairly be made. For instance in an article on London Bridge it might be fair to say that there is a modern version of the bridge spanning the Thames and an assumption is that, since the writing of the article, the bridge has not fallen down. The "No nation recognises.." is dependent, at the very least, on press reporting. ] ] 21:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
:That is what I meant by RS citations to back this up. Some reliable press reports that Country X, Y or Z does not recognize the group as a sovereign state. But I don't think any assumptions can be made here at all. ] (]) 22:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
::Joint statement by 60 nations that they will degrade and defeat and will be "Exposing ISIL/Daesh’s true nature (ideological delegitimization)" .http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/12/234627.htm is approximately the opposite of diplomatic recognition.
::One of the tests is "the capacity to enter into relations with other states" but when they captured Mosul, they took the entire Turkish consulate hostage - pretty much the opposite of entering into diplomatic relations. ] (]) 18:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
:::Thanks. I don't dispute the basic accuracy of the statement. It is just that citations are needed for it. <s>I think that one is probably enough for the countries not recognizing ISIL as a sovereign state.</s> ] (]) 21:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
I have no confidence that any nation would even give lip service to the idea of considering ISIL as a sovereign state. I wouldn't be surprised if Ban Ki-moon type comments covering the wider topic that they are not a state may have been used a number of times. To talk about being a sovereign states is an even more specific topic and I doubt that any government would touch it. ] ] 21:16, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

You have quotes from Moon and Obama - add the cites and move on. Or how about Abbotts quote about not dignifying them? ] (]) 05:33, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
::*<s>Hear, hear. There are enough citations now. ] (]) 18:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)</s>
:I am still unsure that citation are either needed or valid. ] states: "By citing sources for Misplaced Pages content, you enable users to ] that the information given is supported by reliable sources, thus ... showing that the content is ]". The No nations claim, however, is justified in effect as being verifiable content of a type not applying to original research objections which, as noted, comes in the context of Ban Ki-Moon and similar comments. Maybe, as an alternative, other related comments can transparently be added to the text. The only reason for the inclusion of the statement is that the group have called themselves "Islamic State". The article is just striking a balance in saying that they are not recognised as such. I don't object to the use of citations but think that other options are available. ] ] 07:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
::Rereading the citations given above, the only quote that ''could'' support the statement as it stands is Obama's, and possibly the legal scholar citation. The rest are not close enough. But being exact about citations is not a high priority in this article, so it doesn't matter. ] (]) 08:54, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
:::The new text given to replace "No nation recognizes ..." is: "President Obama said that, ISIL is not “Islamic” on the basis that no religion condones the killing of innocents and that no government recognises the group as a state," That does not accurately reflect what Obama said, it is very approximate and alters his meaning. But hey-ho, approximate is good enough for Misplaced Pages, isn't it? ] (]) 22:07, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

== RfC: File:Syria and Iraq 2014-onward War map.png not used to highlight Israel ==

{{rfc|hist|pol|rfcid=F8D34BE}}
]
The map image, ], is used with the following headings:
* Controlled by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant
* Controlled by al-Nusra
* Controlled by other Syrian rebels
* Controlled by Syrian government
* Controlled by Iraqi government
* Controlled by Syrian Kurds
* Controlled by Iraqi Kurds
* Disputed territory ''or'' Occupied by Israel

The proposal here is to remove reference to Israel and the Golan Heights disputed territory from the map as an irrelevance to the topics within which the map is used.

Please respond with '''Support''' or '''Oppose'''

I propose that there is no relevance in the inclusion of Israel in the context of the articles in which the map is used. Israel are not one of ISIL's military opponents and they are not amongst the nations that have designated it as a terrorist organisation neither have they been a participant in the war in Iraq and Syria in 2014. If Israel do engage in the war then I think a highlighting of Israel would be fair but until then I think inclusion is questionable. Basically the proposal is that, while there are certainly issues related to the Israeli occupation of regions such as the Golan Heights, these are best covered elsewhere. I have not seen maps in RS publications make reference to Israel and I think that Misplaced Pages should follow the same lead.

] ] 15:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

'''Support''' Any reference to Israel should be deleted, which means making the Golan Heights/Israeli occupied Quneitra gray.—]]] 20:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
:In addition to supporting the removal of color in Golan Heights, after the outcome of this RfC, the '''following images should be deleted''' (or at least be agreed on not using, and leave them available due to their presence in talk pages/archives):
<gallery>
Syrian civil war 2.png
Syrian civil war 3.png
</gallery>

::'''Comment''': You're right, that Israel has nothing to do with Syria war. But saying just ''disputed'' obfuscates, that ] have condemned this annexation. It is irrelevant but what's the problem with mentioning the occupation? I suggest for clarification to use both (''Disputed territory occupied by Israel'')--] (]) 21:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
:::'''Comment''': Within the context of the Syrian civil war, Israel has absolutely nothing to do with the war, and has nothing to do with the map. If Israel played an active and direct (indirect role would be like Turkey or Iran) military role in the Syrian civil war, then they should get a color. Israel is not a combatant in the war, and so Israel should not be shown. Adding another color to represent Israel also adds clutter to the map/legend—]]] 21:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
:::'''Comment''': And to your comment about the United Nations and Resolution 497, if Israel, Lebanon, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Turkey all had different colors, then Golan Heights would be colored in the same color as the rest of Israel. The dashed border in Golan Heights should give enough information to show that it is a disputed territory.—]]] 21:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
::::'''Comment''': "Israel should not be shown.".. Israel is already not shown. Golan is Syria, not Israel.--] (]) 21:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::'''Comment''': To clarify, when I say "Israel should not be shown," Israel should be gray like the rest of the countries. Golan Heights' borders are dashed, already showing a dispute. If a Syrian combatant held territory in Golan Heights, then it should be colored. But a foreign country (represented in gray) occupies it, so it should be kept in gray.—]]] 21:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::Israel is already grey like the rest of the countries. The captions to the maps used for Syrian Civil War maps say '''"Military situation in Syria."''', Whether Israel is part of the civil war or not, they are occupying part of Syria, so they are part of the '''"military situation in Syria"'''.--] (]) 00:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::If there was a page that said '''"Military Situation in Syria"''' that was not created for the civil war, then you may have a point. But, these maps are for the civil war, hence the name "File:'''Syrian civil war'''.png".—]]] 03:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::So how about this: We make the Golan Heights striped, Black/grey. And then we change the caption to all images: "Participants in the Syrian Civil War" - or something like that, then we can remove mention that Israel is occupying the GH, because it is not a participant in the Syrian Civil War. --] (]) 04:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::I agree that in images that deal exclusively with the Syrian Civil War captions on images should relate to "Participants in the Syrian Civil War". This is the only relevant content to the issue. There has been edit-warring over captioning. We can't let an area be given different colouration without an invitating continued disruption. ] ] 06:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
'''Oppose:''' Israel is not included in any of the maps above. The maps only show the military situation in Syria and Iraq. Golan is part of Syria and is occupied by a foreign invading country. So that should of course be shown in maps showing the military situation of Syria. --] (]) 21:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - we tried using the grey and brown striped for Golan Heights to emphasize the disputed area with the Syrian Arab Republic, in order to satisfy some users like Supreme Deliciousness, but it has just created more confusion and has not reduced edit-warring. Furthermore, Syrian Arab Republic doesn't control the Quneitra border areas (1967 cease fire line) with Israel any more, and considering that Israel is not significantly involved in the war - Israeli-controlled Golan should be made external color.] (]) 22:02, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
::No I can support brown for Golan, but why cant it say in the infobox that brown is "Occupied by Israel" ? The 1967 line is not the border with Israel, the land to the west is part of Syria. Excluding it from the map mean "Golan is not Syria" Which is an Israeli pov and in violation of international community view. --] (]) 00:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
:::Because Israeli ] and later unilateral ] in 1981 has nothing to do with the ongoing Syrian Civil War. The Israeli-controlled Golan is not an arena of the war and Israel is not a belligerent (so far), so it should not show on "Syrian Civil War map" images.] (]) 07:32, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - there is no "Israel" in the original image, so why is this vote for? inclusion of Israel has widely been discussed at ] and no consensus has yet been gained.] (]) 22:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
**'''Comment''': This discussion is supposed to be the final consensus (at least for English Misplaced Pages) on what the status of Golan Heights should be as shown in the maps.—]]] 22:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
:::Are you talking about only maps showing the military situation in Syria or also other Syria location maps showing places in Syria? --] (]) 00:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
::::About the two maps that include a white, gray, or brown striped Golan Heights that has to do with the '''civil war'''.—]]] 04:28, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
'''Oppose''' The Israelis are less involved than others (namely the Americans and us Europeans, let alone the local actors), but have bombed . Golan Heights are occupied (inadmissible to acquire territory through war; bog-standard international law). Describing the territory as "occupied by Israel" is a simple statement of fact. In all honesty, what is the big deal here? All we're going to get, if we do as you suggest, is someone come along and say that Misplaced Pages is trying to airbrush Israel's occupation of the Golan Heights. If Israel doesn't want to appear on such maps, it could always withdraw from the Golan Heights. Anyway, for what it is worth, my view is that this is a non-issue. --] (]) 01:15, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
:] to clarify I personally don't know but I have not personally heard of military activity for a relatively long time. I agree that the occupation of the Golan Heights is morally wrong but think that these issues are best dealt with elsewhere. We have to present encyclopaedic content here. These maps are used relevantly in connection to the current episode of ] and in relation to the warring factions concerned. I think that this is the central issue that should be addressed in content with no more than warranted distractions of other issues. ] 03:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
::Hey, ]. "Israel last bombed or otherwise intervened militarily in Syria" , apparently. This is by no means exhaustive:
::, "believed to be sixth Israeli attack in Syria" in 2013.
::, March this year.
::, June this year.
::''Cheers!'' --] (]) 23:30, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
'''Support''' Supreme created the map highlighting the Golan in bright white and adding Israel to the legend to promote his ] that extends to fighting over salads, the location of archaeology sites and names of ]. He has been trying to push this map all over Misplaced Pages for months. Tenacious editing at its worst. Israel is not a combatant in the Syrian Civil War (any action has been very limited right on the border when attacked) and the Golan is not part of the conflict. However other gray countries - Lebanon, Jordan, KSA for example ARE involved in the Syrian Civil War with troops or bombing but are all gray. No one is disputing that Israel occupies the Golan Heights but the map is supposed to show which faction controls what part of Syria in the Civil War. ] (]) 02:24, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
:When Lebanon, Jordan or KSA are occupying a part of Syria, we will ad their color in the map. But currently the only foreign country occupying part of Syria is Israel. --] (]) 02:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
]
::The map (added again for perspective) is used in relation to the activities of the militarily active factions in Iraq and Syria. We need to encyclopaedicly present relevant issues on the ] which is the central issue presented in the articles in which the image is used. Israel is an issue relevant in many topics but not here. ] ] 04:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
'''Support''' The most that Israel has done in relation to the current conflict is, I believe, that they have set up a relatively small refugee camp. The fighters: Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, al-Nusra, other Syrian rebels, the Syrian government, the Iraqi government, Syrian Kurds and Iraqi Kurds, all deserve mention. They all have valid inclusion within the context of the "...War map" discussed. <br />
I agree with ]]], who is a regular editor on these maps and seems to know their content: "Adding another color to represent Israel also adds clutter to the map/legend". In my view it offers no encyclopaedic benefit to article content concerned while presenting an invalid distraction. ] ] 04:17, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

:'''Oppose''' I already said, that Israel is not involved, but that's not true. See ], ] and .--] (]) 08:24, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
::Other countries are doing airstrikes but on the map. Israel has not sought to control one sq ft of extra land. Turkey is taking in wounded too which surely does not make a country a belligerent.
'''Support''' We had a similiar discussion at ]. Mark Golan Heights grey (like Israel, Palestine, Lebanon etc.) as the Israeli occupation of Golan Heights is not related to the civil war but the general situation, though there has been some incidents there. However, marking Golan Heights with a colour such as brown here and mention it as "Disputed" like now is unacceptable. It is viewed as occupied by the world. --] (]) 15:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

'''Support''' The dotted line seems sufficient to me to show that this is not a de jure national boundary. The colouring implies fighting, but the Turkish border, particularly around Kobanî/Ayn al-Arab has had far more fighting. Were rebels to try to reclaim the area, or have a major battle in the area, then I might reconsider. Everything else I have to say has been said above repeatedly.--] (]) 20:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': I assume this discussion effects ], ] and ]. If so, an immediate improvement would to (assuming support) switch from using ] to using ] in the Syrian detailed map, then updating the other two maps. Is there a map of Syria without the Golan Heights being highlighted.--] (]) 21:50, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
**Yes, it is for the two files and template. The file in the template does not have to change, it as easy as making the striped areas gray, we do not need to worry about the template. About the Syria sans Golan Heights, I'm not sure.—]]] 22:23, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
***To be clear, I meant the Israeli-occupied part of the Golan Heights only. --] (]) 04:31, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
FYI, I have just taken a look through all the other language, parallel articles to the English article on 'SIL Of the articles that use the map at ] only the Tamil article added reference to the occupied territories in the context of this map. I left a link to this content for anyone who wants to join the discussion. ] ] 15:38, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

::This is instructive, the evidence suggests Israel is fighting Hezbollah/Iran in Syria, not Syria, confirmed by Jewish academic and Lebanese press. "Prof. Eyal Zisser, an expert on Syria from the Moshe Dayan Center at Tel Aviv University, told The Jerusalem Post..., “Israel’s policy is clear. It does not interfere in the war and has no interest to attack Bashar Assad and its army, or to topple the regime.” However, he said that “Israel took advantage several times in the past of Assad’s weakness and acted against arms shipments on their way from Syria to Hezbollah.”" Syria says Israel is helping the al-Qaeda terrorists-which makes zero sense. .] (]) 20:28, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

'''Oppose''' The map shows the current military situation in Syria and Iraq; the UN, and most countries in the world, recognize Golan Heights as part of Syria under Israeli military occupation, so that is relevant to the situation of the map. Furthermore, while Israel has not been a major player in the Syrian Civil War, they have attacked Syrian government forces several times, and there have been of them providing low level aid to the rebel forces, so that is another reason to include them in the map. ] (]) 06:23, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
*] The map relates to the 2014 military situation in Iraq and Syria. As far as I am aware Israel has not attacked the Syrian government forces was a relatively long time. The low level aide that you are referring to relates to medical aide given to war wounded. Certainly some if not all of the casualties may have been fighters but, the nature of wounds received, will mean that a large number of them will not return to active duty. Israel has no motive in antagonising the Assad regime and I think that it is likely that this is a PR move with the rebels. Israel is not involved in military activity of any relevance to the articles in which this map is used. I don't think that this map is an appropriate place to attempt to ]. As I see it the only thing that will result from a highlighting of Israel will be an increase in antagonism and a distraction from a Sunni-Shia conflict which also needs to be resolved. There is nothing encyclopaedic in the current context in a mention of Israel. Please alter your decision. ] ] 12:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
**], you say "As far as I am aware Israel has not attacked the Syrian government forces was a relatively long time". According to , Israel attacked Syrian government facilities earlier this month, I don't think that was a long time ago. Given that Israel has attacked the Syrian government and its allies in Syria on more than one occasion, I don't think it is right to label Israel a non-participant in the Syrian Civil War. Their degree of participation is at the lower end of the scale, but it isn't zero. ] (]) 08:12, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
]
***] Thank-you. Having given more attention to ISIL related issues I was unaware of this significant handful of attacks on the Syrian government. However I don't see that this information is relevant the majority of ISIL related articles within which the map is predominantly used and viewed. Israel is not raised as an issue in these forums. There are maps available specifically related to the Syrian situation in the Syrian Civil War and these maps can equally be used in the one relevant article use there. ] ] 09:30, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

== ISIS and sexual slavings ==

Why do we need six cites for this? There were six; I deleted four of them, then got reverted on the basis that "extraordinary" (whatever is meant by that) claims require "extraordinary" (i.e. "a great amount of") documentation. But what is this ]? Without wishing to sound like a pooh-bums, I only know ]. It's no big deal—my only reason for deleting them was thinking it was overkill—but perhaps I might learn another thing about Misplaced Pages policy, procedures, or whatever, if further explanation is provided. That's all. ''Cheers!'' --] (]) 23:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
::I believe the ref is to ] aka ]. The actions described are very extreme (enslaving and selling women and justifying it), so heavily sourcing the statements seems very appropriate. I was thinking about putting back the refs myself. Hope that helps. ] (]) 02:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Heavily citing a report is necessary for other editors to verify whether the cited reports are necessarily summarized and saved on the page , only recurring article references need be deleted.''thanks''--](]) 21:13, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

== Should we add Israel to the list of coalition countries against ISIL? ==
:''See also: ]''



== Requested Move 15 October 2024 ==
While a Western diplomat is a reliable source, the Israeli Ministry of Defence declined comment. Also, the Israeli PM that ''“We are ready to support and help in every way that we’re asked, but these are things we don’t discuss necessarily on TV”.
<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, inherit); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top -->
''
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''


The result of the move request was: '''Not moved.''' We normally keep RM discussions open for at least seven days with a possibility for prolongation via relisting. This discussion has now been open for more than four weeks. The request suggested a move to {{-r|Islamic State (organisation)}}, a target that for several years has been a stable and correctly ] {{tl|R from unnecessary disambiguation}} redirect to ].{{pb}}The proposal to move has seen no policy-based support. The opposers argue per ] and ] that the article should stay at the ], ''ergo'' the survey is closed noting a clear '''consensus not to move'''. <small>(])</small> ] ] 17:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
So should we add Israel to the coalition countries list, on the section "Humanitarian and other contributions
----
to identified coalition objectives". ] (]) 18:17, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
]→? — Current name is just the "Islamic State", it’s can confuse readers with article about the ]. I don’t' suggest it to rename the article to ISIL, beacuse "ISIL" is not common name anymore and pretty outdated.
:The Counter-ISIL Coalition is a fairly well defined group that includes a number of Arab nations. As far as I've seen, Israel has not been named as part of the Coalition, much like Iran has not been identified as part of the group. I really doubt that Israel would be invited in as few want to turn this into an Jewish-Arab conflict. I could maybe see listing Israel under Other Countries. ] (]) 18:26, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
::Two things - one is that Israeli role in the Syrian Civil War, including against ISIL has so far been minimal (see ]). The second thing is that the "Jewish-Arab conflict" or more correctly the ] has been the conflict between Arab League vs. Israel; even if Israel joins the Arab League efforts against Daesh (which is doubtful), it still doesn't make it an Arab-Israeli conflict, but something completely different - an alliance with Arab League against a third force ISIL (which is not fully Arab, but mixed ethnicities). In 2013, it was decided that the Syrian Civil War is not significantly related with the Arab-Israeli conflict, and thus an entirely different scheme of tagging and sanctions has been utilized (see ).] (]) 12:31, 21 December 2014 (UTC)


So let's rename the article to ]. ISIS can be also suitable beacuse "ISIS" is currently common name to the group. ] (]) 06:08, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
== The group's original aim ==


:'''Oppose''' Islamic State is the common name for the organization, being the one used by the media. The organization is also the clear primary topic for the name "Islamic State" with this capitalization. The hatnote at the top of the article is good enough to clear up any confusion. ] (]) 19:07, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
The text of the fifth paragraph of the lead begins: "The group's original aim was to establish an Islamic state in Sunni-majority regions of Iraq, and after it joined the Syrian Civil War, this extended to include Sunni-majority areas of Syria." Is there any quote from the group itself regarding its original aim or is this just speculation? Why were they fighting? For territory? For statehood? For vengeance against or hatred (or similar) of Shia believers and/or of other ethnic groups? For the enforcement of Sharia law on wider groups of people? For a cleansing of the land? I am speculating here but (I am guessing) that whoever added the original text may have done the same.


::Hi ], Naming the article "]" would be a more appropriate solution, as it clarifies that the article specifically refers to the militant group commonly known as ISIS, while distinguishing it from the broader and more diverse theoretical concept of an "Islamic State." This title would help avoid confusion, making it clear that the focus is on the organization rather than the general political or religious concept. By adding the term "organization," it also provides a more neutral and descriptive approach, acknowledging that the term "Islamic State" has broader historical and theoretical meanings, which should not be conflated with this particular group.The normal readers are not supposed to distinguish this minute difference.
Citations on the group's declared aims, if it ever made any, would be appreciated. For now I have edited so as to place the "Sunni-majority" reference within its relevant section and removed reference to the claimed singular aim ] ] 11:19, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
::--] <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added 18:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)</small>
:]: This sentence you have removed was carefully decided upon by editors:
:::Please convey your thoughts in your own words, chatbots are not helpful. - ] (]) 02:49, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
::"The group's original aim was to establish an Islamic state in Sunni-majority regions of Iraq"
:Gazkthul can put you right on the history of the group's Islamic state dream, but unfortunately he is away. There are several citations on this in the article which might help you on this if you care to look at them. I suggest you restore the sentence until this can be sorted out. ] (]) 12:03, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
::], what exactly do we know about this group? They promote various lifestyle aspects of Sharia law; they threaten and terrorise citizens so as to force compliance to their requirements; they kill people that they think will be a threat and they torture and kill people who refuse to comply and they have declared an Islamic state and caliphate. A group of Muslims could buy an island from a government in a way that in which the government renounced sovereignty and declare an Islamic state. Clearly, unless an Islamist agenda is being pushed, it may be argued that the other issues mentioned may not be necessary. We cannot ] with speculations regarding the group's original aim. At most we may be able to quote members of ] as to what they say that their aim was. We have difficulty in crystal balling their aim at any stage in proceedings. I think we are better off quoting what they say and what they do.
::I've notified Gazkthul of thread and edit developments and have invited contribution here. ] ] 22:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
:::I agree with you. Sources are needed for this. I think there may at one time have been an RS which backed up that sentence, even in the Lead. What about the other references in this article which back up that they have always aimed to found an Islamic state? (Don't be frightened of pro-ISIL bogeys, I honestly don't think there are any working on this article! You ask the right questions, but is the cat on the mat perhaps getting the better of you again? {{P|:)}}) ] (]) 23:21, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
::::] When you mention anti-ISIL and pro-ISIL the only issue involved is neutrality and unless in response to another editor, these are terms that I have never used.
:::::*Of course the only issue is neutrality. I never meant anything else when contrasting those two terms. ] (]) 09:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::::Not just 'SIL but other similar groups may well have an aim to establish what they would describe as an "Islamic state" or what they would describe as an "(Islamic) caliphate". However to say that such was the aim of ] would need confirmed citation. The fact is that the group have undertaken a wide range of War Crime type actions that are, by no means, required for the formation of either of the above. When there are citations saying that the group are targeting and killing the Shia, should we declare the groups aim to be the denuding of Shia populations? We can't crystal ball on these issues. We are not thought police. We can only present facts. ] ] 08:14, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::* ]: I am not clear why you are making these points. It has already been decided that citations have to be found. I had an exchange with Gazkthul about this some time ago; the matter has to be taken up with him on his return. He is very knowledgeable about the history groups like ISIL as you probably know. Observation: your constant return to the iniquities of ISIL, brought in at every possible opportunity, is very telling about your attitude towards editing this article, IMO. ] (]) 09:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::] It is fine to raise question of motive but I find it curious, when you have repeatedly protested against perceived "thought police" on instance when the content of your edits have been challenged, that you raise this type of issue here. ''] (])]''
:::::::The first point I made was in reply to your mention of pro-ISIL bogeys. I responded.
:::::::The iniquities of ISIL are a major topic in relation to the group. In relation to article content there have been what you have described to be surreptitious attempts to edit the article which have had the effect to remove critical content; There are currently attempts to declare in Misplaced Pages's voice that the group are (Islamic) caliphate despite several "facts": that the claimed authority of the group is extremely widely disputed; that they are widely regarded to be un-Islamic; that, when RS use the word caliphate in connection to this group, they typically qualify the use of the term and that other groups with similar but less extreme claims to Islam are fighting against them. Accurate heading descriptions in relation section content have been disputed. I think that various issues are being pushed in the article and that they are telling, IMO. ''] (])]''
:::::::Thanks for mentioning the point about other references in this article. I was interested to see a primary source text dating back to 2005 (in the goals section) in which the establishment of a caliphate is mentioned 6 times and state is mentioned (in the context of becoming one) is mentioned 4 times. There is also an interesting justification of slaughter amongst other things. The Shia are mentioned 19 times. Again I have to wonder whether the aim was to build a "caliphate" or destroy the Shia. What do you think? ] ] 10:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
{{collapse top|Refactoring muddle}}
<small> Some major refactoring seems to have gone on here which makes nonsense of this part of the thread. My comment "I am a bad person to ask ..." was initially in direct response to the comment ending "What do you think?" My other comments have been moved about. ] (]) 18:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC) </small>


* '''Oppose''' as per ] that is what the organization calls itself.] (]) 07:16, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::*(The big difference is that I never tell you what to think, Greg! Perhaps you don't realise you do this ... {{P|:)}}. That has been on our Talk pages, not here, and has not been in connection with challenged ''edits''. You must be careful not to misrepresent, though I believe (hope) this was accidental.) ] (]) 11:42, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
*:"that is what the organization calls itself"
:::::::::<small>''] and moved as above. I have mentioned this a number of times and will delete content on the next occasion. ] ] 16:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)]''</small>
*:Why we would use "]". Article about the concept is " ] ", about the group is " Islamic State ". Just ] is difference. That's why I start an RM. We can use " ] or "]. ] (]) 03:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::] Again your ] are misplaced here. Please cite instances in which I have told you what to think. Otherwise please stop badgering. You are welcome to edit on my talk page but please be ready to substantiate your claims. ] ] 16:46, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::*(Ah, diktats! My only wish is to stick to NPOV (as I understand it to be) and if it looks like being pro-ISIL I cannot help that. {{P|:(}}) ] (]) 11:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC) *::I would rather move the article on the concept to ] if you think something needs to be moved. The organization is what most users are looking for when they type "Islamic State" into the search bar. ] (]) 12:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::@] Ok.
:::::::::<small>''] and moved as above. I have mentioned this a number of times and will delete content on the next occasion. ] ] 16:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)]''</small>
*:::I forget this opinion when I propose this in October. ] (]) 10:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}
*'''Oppose''' - It is the common name. - ] (]) 02:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::::]: I am a bad person to ask as I don't know too much about it, but I would say the aim was to do both. It is alien to our way of thinking, but I can see how for groups that seem to think like ISIL do those goals would not be incompatible. (One of the big problems in understanding ISIL, I think, and much of the Middle East for that matter is that the mindset is so completely different from the Western one. Sorry, this is not a ].) I am puzzled why that 2005 letter you refer to is cited in support of ISIL's caliphate/Islamic state dream, because I don't think it is from a member of ISIL (in a former incarnation) at all. I looked it up before and I think the person who wrote that letter, Abu Muhammad, is Ayman al-Zawahiri from al-Qaeda. That name is listed in the wiki article on him as one of his aliases. ] (]) 11:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' – I endorse ] proposal to modify the article title for enhanced clarity and accuracy. Currently, “Islamic State” as a title risks conflating the militant group with the broader concept of an “Islamic state,” a political or theological idea concerning governance within Islamic contexts. This ambiguity can lead to misunderstandings and unintentionally lend an inappropriate connotation to either the organization or the general concept.
:::::::::Because ISIL=al-Qaeda at the time? P-123's understanding of ] is flawed and indeed is making him look like an ISIL cheerleader now. Neutral POV includes giving appropriate weight to RS - and in this case the overwhelming RS evidence is not pro-ISIL claims. ] (]) 19:46, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
*:] (]) 08:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}
*:@] This RM is not closed but you still moved article about the organisation as "]". You should wait until the problem get solution. ] (]) 10:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
]: Correct about the letter covering ISIL as ISIL was part of al-Qaeda at the time. Will have to check with Gazkthul when back whether this is al-Zawahiri's letter. Perhaps it should be made clear this was ISIL's view as well, either in the text (messy) or in the footnote (better). Re: "overwhelming RS evidence is not pro-ISIL". Of course it isn't. I don't question the accuracy of that paragraph's contents or correct balance; I was in the discussions to compose it as you were. To repeat, it is that para's positioning in the Lead, not its content, that is crucial here. It ''looks'' POV placed there (even though balanced and accurate) and that is what counts, first impressions and all that. This same point was made in very early discussions on this para. This article has to be looked at as a whole, not piecemeal as a series of facts. Balance applies there just as much as it applies to the individual facts reported in it. That is all I meant by my comments. ] (]) 20:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div>


== "‘You are next’: online posts show Islamic State interest in attacks on US ahead of election" ==
== Ham fisted lead ==


] ] 11:16, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
The lead is getting wordy with too many "also"s and lots of qualifiers. Perhaps we cut down to''"The ISIL" is a "X", a (insert short desription here). It is commonly referred to in Arabic as "Y". It has proclaimed itself as caliphate refered to as "Z""'' ] (]) 08:16, 21 December 2014 (UTC)


:@] Cite reliable sources to confirm it. ] (]) 08:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
*Re: "X" I would suggest changing "extremist, jihadist" to "Islamist" as per search results in news:
::@] Why didn't you bother to look first? That would be the sensible idea and sholw good faith. The first hit is ] ] 11:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
: gets "About 1,100 results"
: gets "About 839 results"
: gets "About 842 results"
:I don't know of any objections to the group being described as ].
:Re: caliphate, other groups including al-Qaeda, the al-Nusra Front and various Kurdish groups that all hold predominantly to Islam based doctrines do not regard the group as caliphate. I think that the article should focus on what the group is and on its history without unnecessary focus being placed on its contested claims. Issues relating to the groups claim as caliphate are dealt with extensively in the fifth paragraph. I do not think that we should present a ham fisted preferential treatment between groups. ] ] 10:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
*I think I speak for all editors if I say, "Oh no, here we go again!" The Lead has been discussed at ''great'' length by editors, analysed, quartered, diced, reconstituted, so many times. Pity the poor reader, who has been getting a different version of the Lead nearly every other <s>week</s> day, for months and months. An encyclopaedia that cannot make up its mind is a very bizarre thing. Gregkaye seems to be wanting to raise the vexed "jihadist" wording again, first raised by him at the . I don't think there will ever be an end to this if matters are allowed to take their course. ] (]) 11:29, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
::I agree. Stability in lead content would be advantageous. All the same it is better that editors raise changes to the lead here rather than just making changes without consultation.
::] That was what I wrote until I ran into edit conflict with your personalised redaction above. Given the context of the last three bids to change the lead, presented ], ] and ] were all proposed by you; that you have significantly supported my proposals re jihadism and that the comments above relate to clear prevalence of use in reliable sources I find this criticism quite surprising. ] ] 12:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
:::]: My proposals led to a consensus (not always in my favour) and I believe those agreed changes should now not be altered. As you know, I supported a link attached to "jihadist", not removal of the word. You say, "I would suggest changing "extremist, jihadist" to "Islamist"", opening up the whole "jihadist" debate again, which was very disruptive and led to your AN/I at the end of October. No editor agreed with you on the removal of the word "jihadist" and now you raise removing it again. '''' The AN/I was inconclusive and ] received no sanction. ~ ] (]) 20:27, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
::::TY ], yep <small>I got away with that one</small>, joking. It is certainly true that I was certainly soapboxing in the initial thread on the issue but on a subject that I thought had significant importance. Amazingly, even though the terminology "]" was mentioned a number of times in the debate, the word itself was never suggested as an alternative description. With reference to the actual usage of words it is clear that Islamist is the more commonly used term in relation to the group. I think the description fits. Reference to earlier threads on this topic will demonstrate difficulties surrounding the description "jihadist" but I think that "Islamist" ticks all the boxes.
::::::Digression, P-123 and I have also been known to disagree on a number of subjects but, to his/her great credit, during the difficult time of the AN/I s/he gave a generous, supportive communication lifeline within Misplaced Pages. I felt this to be a difficult time and the contact was appreciated. I think that this represents something that goes way beyond the standards of good practice in situations in which editors are being called to account. ] ] 23:45, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
:::In the previous thread you said, "For now I have edited so as to place the "Sunni-majority" reference within its relevant section and removed reference to the claimed singular aim here." Now you say, "All the same it is better that editors raise changes to the lead here rather than just making changes without consultation." Please make up your mind! ] (]) 13:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
::::I think that WP:guidelines apply to different extents to different issues, The way I see it is that some things are debatable on issues such as, "do we put this content into the lead". In other cases I think that there are issues on which Misplaced Pages guidelines present a clearer level of guidance on a choice to be taken. My personal view is that, in these situations, ] changes may be more validly made. ] ]
The lead rightly notes the complexity of DAESH, from its illogical claims, un islamic actions, to multitude of names. If the OP has specific wording, post it up for comment. ] (]) 19:25, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
:Btw, my earlier comments were not intended to shut down debate. Newer editors need to know the background to the "jihadist" debate, that is all. ] (]) 20:27, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
::] Re: Newer.. Why? All older and newer editors "need to know" is the topic of a debate. If at this stage you want to paint pictures of long past disruption I suggest that you add balanced comment on the various sides of the story. You very well know that I backed away from debates of my own volition despite what one administrator described as bad faith contributions within the threads. You also know that my proposal here is something new and not before mentioned. I take exception to argumentative wording "here we go again", "bizarre", "vexed" and "ever be an end". It would have been nice if the proposal had been able to run its course without being unduly and disruptively prejudiced against from the start. I would not like to "mirror" this raising of past issues in this way. I wonder how editors past would regard these approaches. ] ] 17:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
:::*I imagine they would agree with me. We all opposed your wish to remove "jihadist". The link I gave earlier to Talk page discussion on this, and the links from that discussion, demonstrate it very clearly. Yours is hardly a new proposal. You still wish to remove "jihadist", the common RS descriptor for groups of this type. ] (]) 20:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::] Please read carefully the above and related texts. Granite sands has proposed using a short description and I have highlighted the fact that the ''most'' common descriptor for groups of this type is "Islamist". This is also true for groups like al-Qaeda and other Islamist groups for which I have done similar checks as above. My original proposal (very briefly held) was to exchange "jihadist" (in relation to a group very disputably following jihad) for "extremist". When objection to this proposal was raised I responded and moved to an adapted proposal to make sure that qualification was given to the use of that jihadist terminology. Now it turns out that "Islamist" ''is'' the most common descriptor. The proposal raised here is new. Please do not evoke imaginary support. If support is given one way or another then fair enough. Please do not prejudice against an argument in the way that you have. If you can present that Islamist is less of a commonly used descriptor than jihadist in relation to this group then present your case. ] ] 07:42, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::*]: I have read them. I am not trying to pick holes, but what search terms did you use for those Google results? Are they results from Reliable Sources? Apart from al-Qaeda, which other groups did you get similar results for? A survey of this sort (or any sort) is only as good as the questions asked. (An observation: for an editor to say criticism is disruptive and prejudices argument says an awful lot; it strongly suggests that editor is unable to take criticism.) ] (]) 08:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:The "put up or shut up" attitude is needlessly aggressive. I made an unambiguous suggestion for a clean up of the lead, which everyone else seems to follow. What are you confused about? ] (]) 10:00, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
::], I am sorry that you feel that way although it may also be argued that the introduction of a thread with the wording "Ham fisted.." is also quite aggressive. Please also review your edit above in terms of aggression.
::The truth is that references to caliphate as associated to 'SIL are far from dominant within general reporting which is demonstrated in the following search of news:
::* gets "About 806 results" in news.
::A mention of caliphate in the opening paragraph of the lead has only recently been added (without agreement) and, as I have mentioned, the claim is very widely "contested". The result of the previous discussion on lead content ] supported the return of the "unrepresentative of Islam" statement back into the second paragraph of the lead. If the group's claim as caliphate is to be placed into the lead's first paragraph, then an increased need is raised for counter claims (as raised within the wider Islamic world) to be returned to the second paragraph. ] ] 11:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
:::I dropped caliphate from the first paragraph and fixed it up. Some weird markup made several of the widely used terms including DAESH completely invisible. I don't think we can make it much more compact and still include the names commonly used by the media - ISIL, ISIS (which comes from two translations), DAESH, and "Islamic State"/"IS" which is usually qualified somehow. ] (]) 19:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
::::Wow. The amended second paragraph now says very loud and clear: "We, the editors of this article, are very critical of ISIL. Look what has been said about it. We are right to be." Not exactly NPOV, is it? ] (]) 21:29, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Why not throw in for good measure, "Over 60 countries are directly or indirectly waging war against ISIL", from the end para? ] (]) 21:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::My, it has been done! The Lead now shows profound anti-ISIL POV and sets the tone for readers of this article. Whatever happened to WP:NPOV, one of the WP:FIVEPILLARS upon on which Misplaced Pages was founded? Are the current ISIS editors uninterested in upholding them any more? ''''
I like the suggestion of moving that sentence up (now wikilinked to the appropriate section) I don't think that the lead inaccurately deals with the global condemnation of DAESH, in fact it is really light on the topic. ] "means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". If the article was to really be fair and proportional it would be 99% critical of DAESH. ] (]) 23:17, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
:While I agree that the <s>criticisms</s> facts '''' have to be summarized in the Lead, as they are a major feature dealt with in the article, the condemnatory tone here in the Lead I think is too strong. The article on al-Qaeda manages to be completely neutral in the Lead and there are as many criticisms of al-Qaeda as there are of ISIL. There needs to be a more neutral way of describing these criticisms. An anti-ISIL bias in the Lead at the moment is very strong. One way to make the Lead more neutral would be to move the second paragraph to the end of the Lead. I think in fact this is why that paragraph was moved to the end in the first place, and it has slowly moved back up, which began with my moving up some parts of it to the top. (See Archive ##22 "Bold change of para order in Lead".) I did express doubts about what I had done at the time, because it has led to bias; I now think I made a mistake and am sorry I did it. ] (]) 07:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::]: When adding your comment above you deleted my accidentally unsigned comment, which I have restored. I imagine this was a mistake. ] (]) 07:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC) Yup - never saw it ] (]) 07:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


== Very small Minor edit request ==
:::You should regret your last post P-123. Nothing in the paragraph is criticism (the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on '''perceived''' faults or mistakes) but hard verifiable facts.


{{edit semi-protected|Islamic State|answered=yes}}
:::Right now it says: "The United Nations has held ISIL responsible for human rights abuses and war crimes, and Amnesty International has reported ethnic cleansing by the group on a "historic scale". (Section 4) The group has been designated as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, the European Union, the United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, Indonesia, Canada, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, India, the UAE, and Egypt. (Section 3) ISIL's actions have been widely criticized around the world (very weak part Section 5), with many Islamic communities judging the group to be unrepresentative of Islam. (Section 5) Over 60 countries are directly or indirectly waging war against ISIL." (part of Section 7) = 4 sentences dealing with 4 sections in a factual summary kind of way. "Neutral" is not the goal of NPOV - fair and proportional without bias reflecting significant views in RS is the goal. The proclamation of caliphate paragraph in the lead lacks any balance right now - no line that anyone opposes it.
Add an collapsible list into groups infobox, it's very long. <br><small>(''this topic will be deleted after accepting'')</small> ] (]) 19:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
:{{done}}. ~] <small>(])</small> 20:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)


== First sentence ==
:::I'd say AQ look like ] compared to ISIL, committing a fraction of the total killings and few of the other war crimes documented to have been committed by ISIL. Between 1992 and 2008 the AQ terrorist network perpetrated 31 attacks with a toll of more than 4,400 lives outside Iraq and Afgahnistan June-Sept 2014 5,500 killed in Iraq only by ISIL (plus Syria!). ] (]) 07:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::::]: Finesse it how you like, that paragraph displays anti-ISIL POV. The facts should be there, but everything is in how they are presented. That presentation does not show a neutral point of view. ] says, "All encyclopedic content on Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, '''without bias''', all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Bias is there. As for "'Neutral' is not the goal of NPOV", that beggars belief. ] (]) 08:51, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::There is no bias (look up the meaning). See ]. You did not identify an incorrect fact, or what is opinion. Instead you seem to be arguing for the fun of arguing instead of presenting a credible alternative. ] (]) 09:29, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::Again, you are failing to understand, I think because you do not <s>''recognise''</s> recognise bias here. '''' Of course those are all facts (except the criticisms sentence, obviously). Can you really not see that presenting them so prominently in the Lead, on its second breath, sets a tone of criticism from WP? That is the only thing I am concerned about. I have already presented what I think is a credible alternative: putting that whole paragraph at the end of the Lead, where it was originally, put there precisely to avoid this bias. I don't think you were involved in those discussions. ] (]) 10:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::]: Like Gregkaye, you show a disturbing tendency to return again and again to how evil ISIL are. That must affect your outlooks on editing this article, and possibly prevents you both seeing bias where it exists, I don't know. ] (]) 10:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


I have removed, from the first sentence of the article, (uncited) text that calls ISIL an "] ]." It is true that, as of 2024, affiliates of the terror group hold territorial control over shifting areas of Africa (which we mention in the lead section), but the preponderance of sources (or at least the sources currently cited) don't seem to commonly use the "quasi-state" verbiage to describe ISIL presently - certainly not at a frequency sufficient to justify its inclusion in the lead. Neither of the two sources cited on the present situation in Africa (, ) use the term. Given all that, the "quasi-state" language is more likely to confuse readers than enlighten them, especially as it seems to conflate the situation a decade ago (2012/2013 era) with the situation today. (Note, too, that there are many terror/insurgent groups that occupy territory but are not commonly described as "quasi-states." ]<sup>]</sup> 19:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::] Please see ] regarding your assertion "failing to understand", suspicion "you do not ''recognise''", rethoric "Can you really not see..", judgement "disturbing". Please see ]. I have already mentioned the abusive use of "here we go again", "bizarre", "vexed" and "ever be an end". Please see: ]. I view this type of interaction on talk pages to be unnecessarily aggressive and in contradiction to the aim of the collegiate atmosphere of which you have otherwise stated as being an ideal. Even in this thread things have progressively got worse.
:::::::::This thread was started on one issue. I mentioned a related issue. You then weighed in with a range of content that made no direct contribution to this thread.
:::::::::You presented the problem, '"Oh no, here we go again!" The Lead has been discussed at great length by editors, analysed, quartered, diced, reconstituted, so many times.' You were the editor raising many if not most of those discussions with some being baseless and with one clearly (had you checked) going against your own pushed consensus (as ) and yet with your admission of your breaking of consensus being deleted from the recent thread Your constant re-visitation on the same old issues comes to feel like an incredible waste of time. From time to time please let things alone. ] ] 11:29, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::''<small></small>''
:::::::: "ISIL's actions have been widely criticized around the world, with many Islamic communities judging the group to be unrepresentative of Islam." = very factual statement, not opinion. Your proposal is not fair or proportionate because you are seeking to downplay the main defining characteristics of the group, what they are best known for. If you are cognizant of how evil this group then you need your sanity checked because I know you've read the article a few times. 10:57, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
{{collapse top|title=Collapse: Apology - followed by off topic content}}
:''hat: text collapsed due to content being even further off topic than previously. ] are especially unsuited to article talk pages. Issues should either be raised at the point of infringement or be correctly referenced to permit defence and with this being done at point of User talk page.'' <small>(note written by Gregkaye)</small>
:::::::::Apologies to other editors here, but why do you resort to what verges on ] when addressing editors who disagree with you, ]? Can we not keep civil in disagreements? I have been trying not to say this for some time, but enough is enough. ] (]) 12:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Now you are both at it! ], I have repeated ad nauseam on this Talk page and ours that I acknowledge going against a consensus I had agreed to. I never "push" for consensus as you well know, I put things to editors to discuss and am happy with whatever consensus arises. You are too sensitive to tough language from editors who do not agree with you, you have a track record here. (If I refrain from citing on this, it will be criticized, as you hate "unsubstantiated" charges, if I cite, it will be seen as an attack, can't win.) This is now becoming really childish. "Constant re-visitation of the same old issues" is because I feel strongly about them, much to your discomfort, evidently. I have been bothered by the frequent revert edit summaries of late which say "goes against consensus", when often no consensus has been arrived at, the edits just happen to have stuck. I know you and Legacypac don't like opposition to your ideas, it is very plain, and I am a thorn in your sides, obviously. I knew this point would be reached eventually, in fact I have known it for a long, long time. Most of this comment is not for your benefits, but for the record, as I think it needs going on the record. ] (]) 12:50, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::] Thank you for editing so as to put this in the collapsed box. All of this is way off topic.
::::::::::: Both at what?? Please get the point. I am far from knowing that you do not push. In my view you push hard while employing a variety of tactics to undermine fellow editors with opposing argument. I am sensitive to what I consider to be unfair presentations of views and to the use of attack in edits. "Childish" is just one more additional attack. On fairness: you claim right to revisit previously discussed issues but, when I raise a completely new proposal regarding the jihadist wording, you present multiple edits in opposition. You don't push? Really?
:::::::::::If you see any editor make a claim in edit summary that you don't agree with then raise it on their talk page. Again, THIS is not the place for unsubstantiated accusations. I believe that proposals that I have made to be based on a neutral approach to editing and am fine about good straightforward opposition. Please, if you want to oppose any editors proposals, don't infer issues like lawyering, weasel type activity and the use of sophisms as, again, you did This is not the way not to push for consensus especially on an issue that you did not even support. Lines need to be drawn. Please do not add further unsubstantiated content to this threat that would force a further response. None of this is relevant here. ] ] 13:42, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}
Am tired of your growing attempts to lay down the law about how editors should behave and of your over-sensitivity to criticism. Those interpretations of comments, lawyering, etc, are typical of an editor who cannot handle criticism. There has been talk like this from you before when editors disagree with you.</br>


== Proposal to include IS-CP and Add a Section on Involvement within the borders of the Russian Federation ==
Your attempts to control discussion and unilateral collapse of a discussion on a very important topic, NPOV, amounts to censorship and ], in my view. It is serious. ] (]) 14:15, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}
''''</br>


The article shows a significant plurality of foreign fighters in Islamic State originating from The Russian Federation yet there is no mention of either IS-CP or the link to Chechan extremists/terrorists nor the direct involvemnet of Al-Qaeada fighters in the Second Chechen War and activities of IS-CP in Russia since inception of Islamic State/Daesh and it's military defeat two years later.
'''Comment''' - Gregkaye has shut down this discussion by collapsing it. I have asked an admin if an editor is permitted to do this. ] (]) 16:32, 23 December 2014 (UTC) </br>
:] As you should know from a ping from an edit on the talk page of ], I had already written to "check whether ... the right courses of action" had been taken here. I collapsed the discussion after your 12:07, 23 December 2014 edit on the basis that the content was, as I saw it, entirely irrelevant to the the topic of this thread. Others may view this differently. You then added comment and then, in a separate edit, moved your additional content into the collapsed region of text. Which ] have you gone to this time? ] ] 20:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::Never one to miss a chance at a side-swipe! Well done. Never got the ping, btw. ] (]) 20:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


I prepose inclusion of links to the main article for IS-CP in the article summary as well as a summary of IS-CP operations within the Caucuses. I'm interested in any discussion/contributions before amending the article. ] (]) 15:12, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
'''Oppose''' main proposal as presented. The group's claim as caliphate are covered amply within the fifth paragraph of the lead and within the article both at appropriate points in the group's chronology. The article should present balanced content on the features of the group and not give disproportionate favouritism in presentation of religious assertions that affect surrounding Islam based communities. It is not a topic that is asserted strongly in RS. ] ] 14:19, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


== Requested move 14 December 2024 ==
==PKK forces in Iraq==
It has been widely reported that PKK has taken positions in Maxmour and controls areas in the Sinjar area in North Iraq , but those areas are marked as held by "Iraqi Kurds" on the , which is incorrect. We should either add PKK to the map as another significant force or to mark PKK-held areas as Rojava's, as PKK is a close ally to a more dominant Syrian Kurdish administration, and they coordinate their efforts in many areas.] (]) 12:43, 21 December 2014 (UTC)


<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, inherit); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:The PKK (Turkish Kurds) are not exerting Turkish Kurd sovereignty over parts of Iraq, nor are they fighting against Iraqi Kurds, nor are the Syrian Kurds fighting against Iraqi Kurds with Turkish Kurd help. Rather they are all allies in this fight so it is inappropriate to show yet another side for the PKK. PKK should however be listed as a combatant in lists properly sourced.] (]) 19:37, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] '''after''' discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''


The result of the move request was: '''not moved.''' <small>(])</small> '']'' 🎄 ] — ] 🎄 23:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
==Move toward DAESH term==
----


] → {{no redirect|Islamic State (militant group)}} – "Islamic state" doesn't indicates towards a particular group but whole Muslim community! And it makes confusion. There are lot of countries or state in past who used this name but not fair to target whole community as majority or almost all Muslims don't accept it as an Islamic state or caliphate. It makes confusion like in ] page. I think it should be moved on the basis of it targets a particular community who aren't accepting it and Misplaced Pages should not work on the basis of who claims the title.There is no problem using Islamic state name as per WP:COMMONNAMES But make a distinction.
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/we-are-helping-extremists-win-the-propaganda-war-in-syria-and-iraq-20141006-10qp82.html
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/18/politics/pentagon-now-calls-isis-daesh/index.html
I have changed the proposed title because the Islamic state of Iraq and Syria doesn't exists. And the main reason for this request is to make distinction.] (]) 23:23, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
http://www.wam.ae/en/news/international/1395273411563.html
http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-islamic-state-name-20141206-story.html


:Disagree. The "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria" is no more as declared by former Caliph Baghdadi, who declared a global Caliphate. That is why now correct to talk of "Islamic State" when referring to the group's central activities and in general; then one can talk of "IS in Syria, in Iraq, IS-WAP, IS-SP, IS-GS etc. etc.
== Sydney hostage crisis ==
:None believe "Islamic State" means "worldwide Muslim Community". ] (]) 14:14, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
:'''Comment:''' I was launched a RM in October to ''']''' but only one supported it, they argued that "Islamic State" is common name. So I think this RM won't succusful.
:But If we uses "ISIS" in most of area rather then article title, it will succusful. No one call the group as "ISIL" now. Reliable sources also use "ISIS". So ISIS is most popular term to refer the group. The " Islamic State" is second most popular term. ] (]) 14:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' When sources spell the name out, they almost always use "Islamic State" – , , , the list goes on and on. Readers expect to see "Islamic State", not a long and clunky alternative name. Almost nobody even knows what the second part of ISIS stands for. ]&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 15:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
::No. ], ] and this page makes confusion. And while saying the word "Islamic state" the thing comes on mind is the state of Islam and there should be no one particularly refered as Islamic state cuz lot of states claimed to be Islamic state and caliphate but it something that is/should be based on consensus of Muslims (Shura) like ] they can come to conclusion that is this an Islamic state, caliphate or not and no one accept them. They are salafi terrorist organization they have not right to claim that they are the Islamic state and how will someone make distinction between (] and isis ??? It's disrespectful and unfair that someone claimed the Islamic state or caliphate title and no one of that community accepts but based on people refers them giving the name doesn't make sense! If you think "Islamic state of Iraq and Syria" is not suitable then ]as suggest by @] or ] but the word "Islamic state" refers whole community not just a particular group it's a term. ] (]) 17:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Nothing written above concerns Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, it simply appears to be your personal opinion based on your own sensitivity (] may be helpful). ] (]) 22:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Agree with Sira Aspera, ] may also be relevant here. ]&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;''<sup style="font-family:Times New Roman">]</sup>'' 01:08, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
:::It sucks that terrorists have co-opted the name, but it isn't Misplaced Pages's job to WP:RGW and change article titles based on a Shura council. ] (]) 22:57, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. ] should redirect to ]. ] (]) 19:06, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''': No reason to lengthen the title. The terrorist organization is exactly what 99% of readers expect to find when they type the title, even more so after the current events in Syria. ] (]) 22:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. An RM with basically the same rationale was discussed a month ago and the closer found a "clear consensus not to move". So why are we discussing it again? I'm often not the biggest fan of ], but in this case it works perfectly. ] is the organisation, capitalised as such and commonly known thus, while ] refers to the generic concept. Suggest a speedy close since nothing has changed since November. Cheers &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;] (]) 23:48, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' that is what the organization calls itself being the one used by the media and is clearly the ] and is the ].] (]) 01:18, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Then what will you say on ] ? How readers will distinct those pages? Or ] what does this page means the first state of Islam or first state of isis ? There is no problem using Islamic state name as per ] But make a distinction. ] (]) 01:31, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per ]. This is not an Islamic state but a terrorist organisation whose proper name is "Islamic State". The capitalisation difference is sufficient. ] &#124; ] 07:16, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*:No it's not sufficient for a normal reader ] (]) 14:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)


:'''Oppose'''. The Islamic State itself is not a militant group, but a global coalition of militant groups under Islamic State's central command. The Iraq and Syria province is the most well-known, but there is no group that's just the Islamic State and not a regional affiliate. I wouldn't be opposed to renaming the article ] as that makes a better distinction between the org and the concept of an Islamic state.
The December 2014 section includes an entry for the Sydney hostage crisis. Although the perpetrator had pledged his loyalty to ISIL prior to the attack, my understanding is that the group did not acknowledge him as affiliated and that he was acting alone in the attack. Therefore it may be better to remove this item from the list. Otherwise we risk falling into the trap of portraying all civilian violence as acts of terrorism, and all acts of terrorism as international Islamist plots. ] (]) 17:48, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
:Per WP:COMMONNAME as Amakuru points out, The Islamic State vs. Islamic state is the perfect example of a specific group commonly known as that versus the concept. ] (]) 22:54, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
::ISIL has repeatedly called for just such attacks. ISIL does not send out laminated membership cards and permission slips to kill people-so what connection are you seeking anyway? There is clearly a difference between civilian violence like some guy beating his wife (never making the local paper) and a terrorism act broadcast around the world at the top of every news cast. It is also pretty easy to tell Islamic terrorism from other kinds. ] (]) 19:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::Think from the pov of a normal reader who wants to know concept but finds this group go on Google and search Islamic state it shows this article. And the isis don't operating now globally and Minor in Iraq and Syria. And it create confusion with ] too ] (]) 02:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Per commonname. ] (]) 23:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Very clear primary topic. -- ] (]) 16:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Islamic State is a common name for the group. It’s the first thing that comes to mind. ] (]) 20:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
*:True, The name 'Islamic State' should be kept on the page, Nobody knows what ISIL, ISIS are anymore. ] (]) 21:45, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
*::But all the article in press mentions it as militant group or organization so why not make a distinction ] (]) 16:28, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div>

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? view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Which name is best: ISIS, ISIL, Daesh or Islamic State etc A: The article title is decided according to policy WP:Article titles

The discussion that resulted in the current name Islamic State was held in August-September 2021. The decision followed WP:Commonname section of WP:Article titles.

This question has been raised over 40 times on the talk page, without any proposal other than the September 2021 and August 2013 discussions resulting in a page move. Now archived, those discussions can be read here and searched here.

Past names, both used and considered, have included: "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria", "Islamic State of Iraq and (al-)Sham", "Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria", "Islamic State", "The Islamic State", "Islamic State (Middle East)", "Islamic State (Organisation)".
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Ajnad Foundation was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 July 2020 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Islamic State. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
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Worldwide caliphate was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 8 September 2022 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Islamic State on 8 September 2022. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Older discussions:
  1. Islamic State of Iraq and Syria → Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, Moved, 13 August 2013, /Archive 1#Rename
  2. RM, Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, Not moved (but moved back to "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant"), 12 June 2014, /Archive 2#Requested Move
  3. RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → The Islamic State, No consensus, 29 June 2014, /Archive 3#Requested move 2
  4. RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, Procedurally closed, 31 July 2014, /Archive 3#Requested move
  5. RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State, Not moved, 8 August 2014, /Archive 5#Requested move 8 August 2014
  6. Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State (organization), Quick close, 20 August 2014, /Archive 5#Move
  7. Content discussion, References in the text: ISIS or ISIL?, ISIL chosen, 17 Sept – 26 Sept 2014, /Archive 10#References in the text: ISIS or ISIL?
  8. RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State, Not moved, 7 Sept – 30 Sept 2014, /Archive 10#Move request - 6 September 2014
  9. RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State (Organisation), No consensus, 17 Sep – 3 Oct 2014, /Archive 11#Requested move 17 September 2014
  10. RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State (islamist rebel group), No consensus, 9 Jan – 17 Jan 2015, /Archive 28#Requested move 9 January 2015
  11. RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State, Not moved, 19 Apr – 20 Apr 2015, /Archive 34#Requested move 19 April 2015
  12. RM, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State (IS), Not moved, 15 Jul – 29 Jul 2015, /Archive_37#Requested move 15 July 2015
The contents of the Khilafah.is page were merged into ISIL#Propaganda and social media on 29 November 2015. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.
Section sizes
Section size for Islamic State (41 sections)
Section name Byte
count		 Section
total
(Top) 85,696 85,696
Name 12,163 12,163
Purpose and strategy 27 41,370
Ideology 24,537 24,537
Islamic eschatology 1,734 1,734
Goals 7,287 7,287
Strategy 7,785 7,785
Organisation 1,359 50,588
Leadership and governance 19,704 19,704
Civilians in Islamic State-controlled areas 3,373 3,373
Military 101 10,951
Number of combatants 4,645 4,645
Conventional weapons 2,102 2,102
Non-conventional weapons 4,103 4,103
Women 3,680 3,680
Communications 69 69
Finances 7,840 11,452
Monetary system 2,516 2,516
Education 1,096 1,096
History 2,821 2,821
Territorial control and claims 10,277 10,277
International reaction 124 62,895
International criticism 2,287 2,287
Islamic criticism 531 31,784
Religious leaders and organisations 20,797 20,797
Other jihadist groups 10,456 10,456
Other commentaries 2,731 28,700
Designation as a terrorist organisation 22,657 22,657
Militia, cult, territorial authority, and other classifications 3,312 3,312
Supporters 3,865 3,865
Countries and groups at war with IS 672 28,856
Global Coalition to Counter the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant 6,344 28,184
Other state opponents not part of the Counter-ISIL Coalition 5,338 5,338
Other non-state opponents 11,408 11,408
Al-Qaeda 5,094 5,094
Human rights abuse and war crime findings 4,279 4,279
Explanatory notes 38 38
Citations 29 29
General and cited references 3,466 3,466
Further reading 333 333
External links 5,413 5,413
Total 312,089 312,089


On 14 December 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Islamic State (militant group). The result of the discussion was not moved.

Requested Move 15 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not moved. We normally keep RM discussions open for at least seven days with a possibility for prolongation via relisting. This discussion has now been open for more than four weeks. The request suggested a move to Islamic State (organisation), a target that for several years has been a stable and correctly categorized {{R from unnecessary disambiguation}} redirect to Islamic State.The proposal to move has seen no policy-based support. The opposers argue per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC that the article should stay at the base name, ergo the survey is closed noting a clear consensus not to move. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sam Sailor 17:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Islamic State→? — Current name is just the "Islamic State", it’s can confuse readers with article about the concept. I don’t' suggest it to rename the article to ISIL, beacuse "ISIL" is not common name anymore and pretty outdated.

So let's rename the article to Islamic State (organisation). ISIS can be also suitable beacuse "ISIS" is currently common name to the group. Gaplow43286 (talk) 06:08, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Islamic State is the common name for the organization, being the one used by the media. The organization is also the clear primary topic for the name "Islamic State" with this capitalization. The hatnote at the top of the article is good enough to clear up any confusion. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:07, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
Hi QuicoleJR, Naming the article "Islamic State (organization)" would be a more appropriate solution, as it clarifies that the article specifically refers to the militant group commonly known as ISIS, while distinguishing it from the broader and more diverse theoretical concept of an "Islamic State." This title would help avoid confusion, making it clear that the focus is on the organization rather than the general political or religious concept. By adding the term "organization," it also provides a more neutral and descriptive approach, acknowledging that the term "Islamic State" has broader historical and theoretical meanings, which should not be conflated with this particular group.The normal readers are not supposed to distinguish this minute difference.
--DelphiLore — Preceding undated comment added 18:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Please convey your thoughts in your own words, chatbots are not helpful. - Ratnahastin (talk) 02:49, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"‘You are next’: online posts show Islamic State interest in attacks on US ahead of election"

Doug Weller talk 11:16, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller Cite reliable sources to confirm it. BangladeshiStranger🇧🇩 (talk) 08:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
@Stranger43286 Why didn't you bother to look first? That would be the sensible idea and sholw good faith. The first hit is Doug Weller talk 11:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Very small Minor edit request

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add an collapsible list into groups infobox, it's very long.
(this topic will be deleted after accepting) 178.81.55.110 (talk) 19:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

 Done. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

First sentence

I have removed, from the first sentence of the article, (uncited) text that calls ISIL an "unrecognised quasi-state." It is true that, as of 2024, affiliates of the terror group hold territorial control over shifting areas of Africa (which we mention in the lead section), but the preponderance of sources (or at least the sources currently cited) don't seem to commonly use the "quasi-state" verbiage to describe ISIL presently - certainly not at a frequency sufficient to justify its inclusion in the lead. Neither of the two sources cited on the present situation in Africa (, ) use the term. Given all that, the "quasi-state" language is more likely to confuse readers than enlighten them, especially as it seems to conflate the situation a decade ago (2012/2013 era) with the situation today. (Note, too, that there are many terror/insurgent groups that occupy territory but are not commonly described as "quasi-states." Neutrality 19:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to include IS-CP and Add a Section on Involvement within the borders of the Russian Federation

The article shows a significant plurality of foreign fighters in Islamic State originating from The Russian Federation yet there is no mention of either IS-CP or the link to Chechan extremists/terrorists nor the direct involvemnet of Al-Qaeada fighters in the Second Chechen War and activities of IS-CP in Russia since inception of Islamic State/Daesh and it's military defeat two years later.

I prepose inclusion of links to the main article for IS-CP in the article summary as well as a summary of IS-CP operations within the Caucuses. I'm interested in any discussion/contributions before amending the article. Debiant (talk) 15:12, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 14 December 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Cremastra 🎄 u — c 🎄 23:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Islamic State → Islamic State (militant group) – "Islamic state" doesn't indicates towards a particular group but whole Muslim community! And it makes confusion. There are lot of countries or state in past who used this name but not fair to target whole community as majority or almost all Muslims don't accept it as an Islamic state or caliphate. It makes confusion like in First Islamic state page. I think it should be moved on the basis of it targets a particular community who aren't accepting it and Misplaced Pages should not work on the basis of who claims the title.There is no problem using Islamic state name as per WP:COMMONNAMES But make a distinction.

I have changed the proposed title because the Islamic state of Iraq and Syria doesn't exists. And the main reason for this request is to make distinction.Therealbey (talk) 23:23, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Disagree. The "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria" is no more as declared by former Caliph Baghdadi, who declared a global Caliphate. That is why now correct to talk of "Islamic State" when referring to the group's central activities and in general; then one can talk of "IS in Syria, in Iraq, IS-WAP, IS-SP, IS-GS etc. etc.
None believe "Islamic State" means "worldwide Muslim Community". 22Chev22 (talk) 14:14, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Comment: I was launched a RM in October to Islamic State (organisation) but only one supported it, they argued that "Islamic State" is common name. So I think this RM won't succusful.
But If we uses "ISIS" in most of area rather then article title, it will succusful. No one call the group as "ISIL" now. Reliable sources also use "ISIS". So ISIS is most popular term to refer the group. The " Islamic State" is second most popular term. RealStranger43286 (talk) 14:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose When sources spell the name out, they almost always use "Islamic State" – , , , the list goes on and on. Readers expect to see "Islamic State", not a long and clunky alternative name. Almost nobody even knows what the second part of ISIS stands for. 🐔 Chicdat   15:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
No. Islamic state, First Islamic state and this page makes confusion. And while saying the word "Islamic state" the thing comes on mind is the state of Islam and there should be no one particularly refered as Islamic state cuz lot of states claimed to be Islamic state and caliphate but it something that is/should be based on consensus of Muslims (Shura) like OIC they can come to conclusion that is this an Islamic state, caliphate or not and no one accept them. They are salafi terrorist organization they have not right to claim that they are the Islamic state and how will someone make distinction between (Islamic state and isis ??? It's disrespectful and unfair that someone claimed the Islamic state or caliphate title and no one of that community accepts but based on people refers them giving the name doesn't make sense! If you think "Islamic state of Iraq and Syria" is not suitable then Islamic State (organisation)as suggest by @Stranger43286 or Islamic state (militant group) but the word "Islamic state" refers whole community not just a particular group it's a term. Therealbey (talk) 17:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Nothing written above concerns Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, it simply appears to be your personal opinion based on your own sensitivity (WP:NOTAFORUM may be helpful). Sira Aspera (talk) 22:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Agree with Sira Aspera, WP:RGW may also be relevant here. 🐔 Chicdat   01:08, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
It sucks that terrorists have co-opted the name, but it isn't Misplaced Pages's job to WP:RGW and change article titles based on a Shura council. Jebiguess (talk) 22:57, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. The Islamic State itself is not a militant group, but a global coalition of militant groups under Islamic State's central command. The Iraq and Syria province is the most well-known, but there is no group that's just the Islamic State and not a regional affiliate. I wouldn't be opposed to renaming the article Islamic State (organization) as that makes a better distinction between the org and the concept of an Islamic state.
Per WP:COMMONNAME as Amakuru points out, The Islamic State vs. Islamic state is the perfect example of a specific group commonly known as that versus the concept. Jebiguess (talk) 22:54, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Think from the pov of a normal reader who wants to know concept but finds this group go on Google and search Islamic state it shows this article. And the isis don't operating now globally and Minor in Iraq and Syria. And it create confusion with First Islamic state too Therealbey (talk) 02:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Categories: