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{{tmbox|text=The purpose of this talk page is to host ongoing discussion among interested editors regarding the ] article itself. '''This page is not for discussing this talk page itself or any other meta-discussion; use the '']'' subpage for that.''' The subpage's creation is an Arbitration Enforcement action. Info on changes to the reference list are here: '']''.}}
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<div style='font-size:medium; text-align:center;'>'''Draft Article'''</div><p><div style='text-align:center;'>While this article is fully protected until editing disputes are resolved, there is a draft article which can be used to develop the content at ]. This talk page can be used to make suggestions to the draft article. Please note that the draft article falls within the scope of ] and that edits made to the draft article are subject to sanctions. Please see {{template|Gamergate sanctions}} for more info.</div>
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{{Press
| author = Von Jan Rothenberger
| title = Der Gesinnungskrieg der Gamer
| org = '']'' (in German)
| url = http://www.derbund.ch/digital/social-media/Der-Gesinnungskrieg-der-Gamer-/story/31132860
| date = 10 October 2014
| quote = "Dass sich Gegner und Befürworter auch auf Misplaced Pages bekriegten, rief mit Jimmy Wales auch den Chef der Webenzyklopädie auf den Plan. Er mahnte beide Seiten zur Ruhe."
| author2 = ]
| title2 = Twitter and the poisoning of online debate
| org2 = ]
| url2 = http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29642313
| date2 = 16 October 2014
| quote2 = "I am not going into the rights and wrongs of Gamergate here - there is what looks like a factual account of this interminable saga on Misplaced Pages, although of course there have been disputes about its objectivity."
| author3 = David Jenkins
| title3 = 2014: Video gaming’s worst year ever
| org3 = '']''
| url3 = http://metro.co.uk/2014/10/20/2014-video-gamings-worst-year-ever-4912543/
| date3 = 20 October 2014
| quote3 = "The Misplaced Pages entry is as good as any at explaining the basics, and shows how the whole movement is based on nothing but the ravings of a female developer’s ex-boyfriend and a level of misogyny that you’d find hard to credit existing in the Middle Ages, let alone the modern day." }}
{{Gamergate sanctions}}
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{{Old moves
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| link1 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 28#Requested move 14 February 2015
| date1 = February 14, 2014


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==Sanctions enforcement ==
| destination2 = Gamergate
All articles related to the ]
| result2 = Not moved
| link2 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 13#Requested moves
| date2 = November 12, 2014


| from3 = Gamergate controversy
Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: ]
| destination3 = Gamergate harassment campaign
| result3 = Not moved
| link3 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 37#Requested move 15 May 2015
| date3 = May 15, 2015


| from4 = Gamergate controversy
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| destination4 = Gamergate
== I just want to say... ==
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| link4 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 45#Requested move 30 August 2015
| date4 = August 30, 2015


| from5 = Gamergate controversy
This page has improved a ton. It still could use some work, that's for sure, but it's way better than November. If I could, I would rewrite the lead something like:
| destination5 = Gamergate (sexist terrorism)
"GamerGate is a movement of gamers who claim to demand ethics in video game journalism. Misogyny and harassment has supposedly been drawn to the movement and the majority of media focuses on it, but most proponents claim that this is a minority group.
| result5 = POINT close
Althought the movement began when indie game developer Zoe Quinn's ex-boyfriend alleged that Quinn had a romantic relationship with Nathan Grayson, a journalist for the video game news site Kotaku in exchange for positive coverage of Quinn's game, these allegations were proven to be false. However, there was much upset in the gaming community before this, including marginalization of gamers and unethical journalism practices. Some have blamed the timing of the situation, claiming that Gamergate would have been better received by the media had the movement started by a verifiable breach in journalistic integrity in gaming journalism."
| link5 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 46#Requested move 19 September 2015
Obviously, it's gonna need citing, but this is just me trying to be unbiased. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 06:16, 3 January 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
| date5 = September 19, 2015
:The problem is that we cannot easily source any of the pre-August complaints to any degree. We know things like the Gerstmann issue and Doritosgate exist as data points but there's no sourcing to connect this up. If anything the only sourceable connections is the prior harassment Quinn, Sarkeesian, and Fish got. And it's not that these sentiments didn't exist, but we simply cannot easily source them, tying our hands in any manner in this way. --] (]) 06:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:Misogyny and harassment have not "supposedly" been drawn to the movement — they are ] the most notable part of the movement. It is ] and undeniably the case that Gamergate-related misogynistic harassment of notable female figures connected to video games is really the only reason why Gamergate has attracted mainstream media attention, and there hasn't been a single mainstream media article about them which hasn't mentioned what the movement is famous for.
:I think ''everyone'' would be much happier if Gamergate was ''actually'' about ethics in gaming journalism, which means it wouldn't have been launched by false, nonsensical or irrelevant allegations against a female indie developer and wouldn't have devolved into a stream of ugly, violent, anonymous misogynist harassment of that developer and other women who have nothing to do with gaming journalism. A movement for ethics in gaming journalism is something pretty much everyone could get behind. Gamergate is not that, unfortunately. While you and others may fervently wish it was... well, it's not viewed that way by anyone outside the movement. The overwhelming consensus of reliable sources is clear, and only getting clearer. (I have been preparing to suggest an addition to the article based on the wide array of commentary at the end of 2014 which listed Gamergate as part of the "worst" things to happen during that year.) Misplaced Pages is not a time machine and we can't fix what someone else broke. The name and the brand, at this point, are what they are. We ], not what supporters of that thing might wish people to say about them. ] (]) 06:53, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::Arguably this is not true. There ''are'' ethics issues that have led to where GG starts; the dangers of MetaCritic, IGN's "10/10 it's okay" type reviews, accusations of favoritism, reviews ignoring game-breaking bugs/networking/drm issues, etc. As a avid gamer, I'm fully aware these exist, but its all in the undercurrents of the community and absolutely nothing that can be documented to any real degree, and particularly in connecting to GG. It is true that the methods - even outside of the harassment - that has been used by those claiming to support GG are considered unorthodox, impractical, and not the way to get a message across, but we should not pretend that there are no ethics issues at the core here, we simply are unable to document them to any degree. --] (]) 17:31, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::I'm sorry but no, this is not "arguable." There is effectively no dissent among reliable sources that Gamergate was launched by false, nonsensical and irrelevant allegations against a female indie developer, and there is similarly effectively no dissent that the movement's only relevant "accomplishment" is to bring attention to a seething undercurrent within video gaming culture that promotes sexism, misogyny and vile, violent harassment of women in video gaming and others who have critiqued or opposed this undercurrent. That is the only reason Gamergate even has an article here. We cannot say that Gamergate is what people within Gamergate ''wish'' their movement was about — we ''must'' say that Gamergate is what reliable sources view it to be. That these two things are entirely divergent is neither here nor there — it simply ''is''. As per the reliable sources, there is no evidence that Gamergate has done or said anything meaningful about the issues you discussed — MetaCritic, IGN, reviews ignoring bugs, etc. — and the only allegations of "favoritism" they've made, which targeted someone's sex life, have been thoroughly demolished, debunked and discredited. Meanwhile, they continue a harassment campaign against a number of people who have nothing whatsoever to do with gaming journalism.
:::Your claim that there is something "we can't document" about Gamergate that would make it look good is precisely the issue — ''if we can't document something, it doesn't exist for Misplaced Pages's purposes''. That is entirely the purpose and meaning of ]. Gamergate's legacy is this: mentions in as an example of how "the year just ended was a banner year for misogyny." ] (]) 17:50, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::::I'm not saying we need to document it - without any sourcing we can't. But it is '''very unhelpful''' to bury our heads in the sands to anything outside of what reliable sources says in terms of discussing how this article can be improved. That is, knowing the overall circumstances means that we can stay on the lookout for RSes that start to develop those arguments better. Yes, until they do, we're not going to add anything new to the article, but a good researcher will know all the angles including the ones that cannot be included at the time, instead of acting ignorant that these other angles exist. For myself, knowing what they say on KIA and other places means that I know what to look for in RSes that might be able to document their side to some degree, even if I know that the press will never take some of those arguments seriously. We cannot prejudge any side of this issue like the press has chosen. --] (]) 18:07, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::As the sources below make very clear, we know exactly what Gamergate is at this point, and what its legacy will be. ] (]) 18:15, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::We absolutely cannot take that attitude as impartial WP editors. GG is still for the most part unknown. We know what part of its legacy will be regarding harassment but that's it. --] (]) 18:17, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::: As the declarative statements in nearly every Misplaced Pages article lede suggest, one thing we ''do'' consider ourselves experts on is saying what things are. Earth is a rocky planet orbiting a star, lead is an element with the atomic number 82, the Bay of Pigs debacle was a CIA-backed attempt to overthrow the Cuban revolutionary government with John F Kennedy's assent, and Gamergate was a terrible blemish on the human race. We don't say ''maybe'' women in gaming were threatened with rape and death and maybe they weren't. That wouldn't be impartial, it would be lying. --] 19:53, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::: While I personally would agree that GG is a blemish, that's an opinion still. The most popular opinion, yes, but key is that it is not fact, and we can't edit as if it was fact. The lede and 90% of the article and draft does the proper job acknowledging that GG being a bad thing is the popular opinion, so this itself is not an issue on the current draft. But when attitudes are in place that want to turn opinion into fact (and that's an issue in both ways, including GG that want to factually state that the journalism side is corrupt), we have to be careful that is not reflected in the article. --] (]) 20:35, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::That it is a blemish is an opinion; that it is viewed as being responsible for the vile and misogynistic harassment of a number of women in gaming and that its "ethics" claims have been widely debunked and are viewed by the overwhelming majority of commentators as little more than thin pretexts for said harassment are both verifiable facts. It is not my "opinion" that Gamergate is among the worst things to happen in 2014 — it is the viewpoint of a large number of reliable sources. Misplaced Pages content is, as Tony Sidaway said, precisely made up of the viewpoints expressed by reliable sources. That some people who support Gamergate disagree with those viewpoints is worthy of note, but it is not worthy of being treated as if it has ] with mainstream viewpoints within the encyclopedia. ] (]) 20:55, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::You're missing the point - the difference between what is considered fact for an encyclopedia, and what is opinion. For example, when you write "the vile and misogynistic harassment", that's based on opinion. We cannot write the article in WP's voice in that tone. We can factually state there was harassment, it was ongoing, it forced women to flee their homes and call police for their safety. But we cannot describe that in WP's voice, in any way, as "vile and misogynistic"; attributing the attack described like that to the sources that said that, sure, that's fine, that reflects that it is opinion, but we cannot state it as a bare fact. It is absolutely necessary to discuss and edit this article with this clear distinction in mind, and that line is being toes or overstepped alot in the last few months. The article, draft or otherwise, is not grossly over this line, but one we have a stable situation when it comes to GG (such that the draft is not changing that fast with new sourcing/information) then we need to re-review to make sure that the article does not express any opinion on the GG matter in WP's voice. We'll let the predominate press sources explain their feelings in depth, for certain, but all as opinions, not fact. --] (]) 20:31, 5 January 2015 (UTC)


== Gamergate's legacy == | from6 = Gamergate controversy
| destination6 = Gamergate (harassment campaign)
With the end of the year, a number of reliable sources have mentioned or discussed Gamergate in post-mortems on the year that was. With critical distance from the main media explosion, these sources are analyzing what Gamergate ultimately meant or demonstrated.
| result6 = Moved
| link6 = Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 60#Requested move 12 August 2021
| date6 = August 12, 2021


| from7 = Gamergate (harassment campaign)
*]:
| result7 = Not moved
*]: : {{tq| GamerGate was started and planned in plain sight by a vengeful ex-boyfriend and bolstered by an online community ready to tear into a woman in gaming. It jumped the harassment train that was already chasing Sarkeesian, and before her Dragon Age writer Jennifer Hepler, and so on and sadly so on. It was supported by a collection of social regressive media personalities and attempted legitimacy on an issue gaming and people in general ranked very low on the totem pole. Certainly far less than the larger discussion regarding gender representation in gaming and the industry. With no central voice or guiding activists to control or regulate the movement it devolved into actions like a bizarre, crowd-sourced book that actually used a cover inspired by Mein Kampf for a time. No one could ever nail down the "real" GamerGate we were all told was waiting somewhere to have his or her or its story told, and all that was left was to talk to the people who found themselves under a mountain of chilling tweets containing the hashtag #GamerGate. It never represented the growing gaming world, and its failure to understand that doomed it to irrelevancy.}}
| link7 = Talk:Gamergate (ant)/Archive 3#Requested move 20 August 2021
*]:
| date7 = August 20, 2021
*], : {{tq|Gaming isn’t immune to reactionary politics. Luckily, GamerGate has fallen out of the headlines, back to the under-the-radar online redoubts where it belongs. But even though it was an embarrassing episode that probably set back gaming as a mainstream pursuit, it was interesting to follow. When you stripped away the flimsy facade of complaints about “ethics in gaming journalism” (a phrase that became a deserved punch line-meme), GamerGate’s proponents were making an argument straight from far-right playbooks — that the “traditional” (gaming) culture was moving too fast, that minorities were being granted special benefits and fawning treatment, partly as a result of assistance from their complicit, overly “PC” majority allies. This was a decades-long culture-war skirmish wrapped in new packaging — nothing more.}}
}}
*]:
{{Old MfD |date=23 June 2017 |result='''redirect''' |page=Draft:Gamergate controversy |altpage=Draft:Gamergate controversy}}
*]:
{{Old AfD multi| date = 6 September 2014 | result = '''Keep''' | page = GamerGate | date2 = 23 November 2015 | result2 = '''speedy keep''' | page2 = Gamergate controversy}}
*]:
{{Copied
*]:
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*], : {{tq|Back in October GamerGate was at its poisonous height, a movement so illogically motivated it would almost be funny – if it weren’t for all the rape threats that sent several female developers and industry figures into hiding. Ignoring the fact that the incident that inspired GamerGate was quickly proven to have never happened the supposed goal was to enforce higher standards of games journalism; something which proponents decided would be best achieved by harassment and death threats.}}
|to1 = Gamergate controversy
*], : {{tq|That term sprung up in response to a string of opinion pieces discussing the “death” of the less savory aspects of gamer culture. It was also closely connected to the public airing of a female game developer’s dirty laundry. From these events, GamerGate quickly became synonymous with a vague, undefined call for “ethics in game journalism.” Harassment, doxing, misinformation … these are the tools of the Internet’s cowardly anonymous. The long progression of events that led one thing to the other is immaterial at this point. What is important is the way GamerGate exposed what has long been a dark underbelly of the games-loving community. Certain people lean on the comfort of anonymity to attack those they disagree with, and oftentimes that comes out in socially unacceptable, even downright reprehensible ways. Harassment, doxing, misinformation … these are the tools of the Internet’s cowardly anonymous. Whatever the term “GamerGate” means to you, personally, it’s been weaponized by this nameless minority – make no mistake, it is a minority – that will to go to unseemly lengths in expressing their discontent.}}
|to_diff1 = 638642070
*], The Artery, : {{tq| 2014 also brought us the deplorable Gamergate controversy, which flared across the Internet, got ugly, and spilled into the real world. Possibly initial legitimate concerns about ethics in the field of video game journalism—some gamers were making accusations about corruption and favoritism—were quickly discredited, and forgotten, when others made threats of violence, rape and death to those who disagreed. Two women key to the controversy, Zoe Quinn and Brianna Wu, are local. As Wu wrote in the Washington Post, “Supporters say they want to address conflicts of interest between the people that make games and the people that support them. In reality, Gamergate is a group of gamers that are willing to destroy the women who have invaded their clubhouse.” Let’s hope those men who feel threatened by female inclusion in the video game industry find more productive ways to express their frustrations and grievances.}}
|to_oldid1 = 638639983
*]: : {{tq|Much of the past year in gaming was marred by a quasi-Internet-driven movement known as "gamergate." The phrase was almost immediately associated with violent, social-media-driven comments directed at female game developers and writers, namely those who dared to speak out about the boys club that has long been the video game medium. Gamergate is convoluted, but it's driven by a fear that criticizing games for misogyny or a lack of social awareness will result in a politically correct makeover of the medium.}}
Others forthcoming. ] (]) 18:03, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


|from2 = Draft:Gamergate controversy
:We don't need every one of these as a quote (we've already got more than enough quotes and we're still working on quote farm reduction), but a line or two noting that numerous sourced named GG as one of the worse incidents of 2014, with one good summarizing quote, is reasonable. --] (]) 18:15, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
|from_oldid2 = 644251654
::I believe a number of these are usable to support some significant postmortem analysis of why the movement has been a catastrophic failure. We can, at this point, write a section examining Gamergate's legacy and impact. ] (]) 18:19, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
|to2 = Gamergate controversy
:::I see a number of these also point out that the movement had ethical components. I assume you'll be looking to include those points of view as well? ] (]) 18:22, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
|to_diff2 = 644253492
::::Yes, they generally point out that initial claims were ostensibly about ethics, but that those claims were all debunked and discredited, and the response to these claims being debunked and discredited was not a heartfelt apology for making false accusations, but rather a torrent of misogynistic harassment and abuse directed at basically anyone who dared to point out how wrong they were. That's pretty much what our article says. ] (]) 18:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
|to_oldid2 = 644248467
:::::So that's a no? ] (]) 18:25, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::I'm not sure what you're asking. Clinging to debunked and proven-false "ethics" claims, and then harassing anyone who points out that your claims are false and harmful, means you aren't really about ethics at all — as the reliable sources above (and others) amply point out. ] (]) 18:27, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::So a no it is, I guess. ] (]) 18:28, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::Do any of the above reliable sources treat the ethics claims as valid or meaningful, as you apparently would like us to do? ] (]) 18:30, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::I'm just patiently waiting for the article to reflect the information that's out there. Hopefully it can get sorted soon. ] (]) 18:32, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::It doesn't matter if they treat them as valid or not, they ''mention'' the claims, mention we can mention the claims too. We don't have to justify if they are right or wrong, but these RS give us the ability to discuss the nature of the ethics claims in more context. --] (]) 18:32, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::It certainly does matter. The reliable sources here treat the ethics claims as all the other reliable sources have: as debunked, false, thinly-veiled excuses for a harassment campaign targeting women in video gaming. That's how our article treats the ethics claims. ] (]) 18:36, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::Wrong. We are impartial, we do not judge from opinion sources. Because ethics claims - even if mostly debunked by the press - are discussed by highly reliable sources for this article, we can include discussion of them, as well as later the statements that they are debunked, because we as WPian must stay impartial and non-prejudgemential. We cannot take any side on this article, and failure to do so is failing the impartiality required by NPOV. --] (]) 18:42, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::Wrong. Every reliable source says the claims are false. Therefore, we discuss them as false. Given that the claims involve highly-sensitive statements about living people, this is just so, per ] and other policies. Claiming that "we cannot take any side on this article" is a ''non sequitur'' — our article content ], and policy dictates that ] are only discussed in the context of mainstream viewpoints of those theories. Gamergate's "ethics" claims are a fringe theory, as amply demonstrated by the way in which reliable sources discuss them — "discredited," "proven to have never happened," "planned in plain sight by a vengeful ex-boyfriend", "the mask of ethics in video game journalism was meant to shield GamerGate from accusations of misogyny, rape threats, and sexism," etc.
::::::::::::I'm actively laughing at the fact that you're trying to use an avalanche of incredibly negative stories about Gamergate — demonstrating the clear and unambiguous consensus conclusion of reliable sources that the movement, such as it is, is a disingenuous tool of revanchist misogyny attempting to hide behind a shield of "but ethics" which has long since been stripped away to reveal the true seething heart of anonymous harassment — to somehow twist around and support your claims that "it's really about ethics!" ] (]) 18:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::::No, sorry, you are still very wrong. Impartialness is a factor of ], and we have to be able to distinguish between opinion and fact. Again, there remain very few facts that we can associate with GG overall short of what's in the current History section - it is a war of opinions here, that's why its a controversy. Further FRINGE states we give fringe views a neutral, fair treatment with the associated weight of ink they get from RS. So because ethics claims have been discussed, if not then debunked by the authors in the next breath, in these highly reliable sources, we can discuss them in a non-prejudging way and then later include the criticism of them; that's how we meet all content policies. End of the day '''we cannot appear to take a side in the GG issue''', and everything you have said above is against that point. And that I'm "trying to use an avalanche of incredibly negative stories" to say its about ethics is 100% wrong. I'm trying to introduce the required impartiality into the article per NPOV. I don't necessarily believe at the end of the day GG is about ethics, but they have presented that as their case, and as we are an impartial encyclopedia, we should include any facets of their case that have been appropriately documented in highly reliable sources. Failure to do so is showing a partial view of the story. The fact that these claims are made in negatively-charged stories doesn't matter, they are stated in what everyone here is considering as highly reliable sources; most of what we know about ], for example, comes from highly-negative sources about the congretation, but we still can document what the church claims about itself from them. That's exactly what we must do here. --] (]) 18:57, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
{{outdent}}No. We cannot discuss false claims about living people "in a non-prejudging way." That is fundamentally impossible ''and'' wholly unethical. Gamergate's claims of unethical behavior by specific living people have been debunked and proven to be false, and our article must so state. Period, the end. Your mistake is to conflate some religious debate over tenets of a holy book with anonymous Internet trolls making false and highly-defamatory allegations against named living people. ] that we not present living people in a false light and that is non-negotiable — we ''must'' and ''shall'' present claims against those people as false, period, the end. Gamergate's founding mistake was to make false and highly-defamatory claims against specific people, and then cling to those allegations long after they were proven false. You cannot go back and undo that ''post-facto''. ] (]) 19:06, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:But the ethics claims mentioned in these RSes include non-BLP related claims that ''can'' be discussed without issue. Further, as per the initial Quinn incident, if there is an ethics claim that includes a BLP statement that is significant discussed and debunked in highly reliable sources (note, I do not think there is any claim that meets this level at this point, I'm just postulating here), there is no reason we cannot cover it as we, though with the same care we took with the Quinn accusation. Most of the ethics claims in the given sources are towards the industry as a whole, and not targeting any specific persons. --] (]) 19:11, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::These RSes don't mention any other such claims, actually. "A fear that criticizing games for misogyny or a lack of social awareness will result in a politically correct makeover of the medium" is not an ethics claim — it's a conflicting opinion about culture. That is to say, a culture war. Which is the point that many reliable sources make.
::You're right that Gamergate has "presented (ethics) as their case," but that "case" has been tested by reliable sources and entirely rejected as disingenuous if not fabricated from whole cloth. It's not a matter of substantive debate anymore. As our article states, I'm sure Gamergate supporters ''believe'' their movement is about ethics. '''Everyone else''' says it's not, and that means, ], that our article will present the overwhelming majority viewpoint as predominant while noting that those within the movement disagree. ] (]) 19:14, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::There is a '''huge''' difference between the balance/weight and impartialness, which keeps getting lost here, and keeping in mind both facets are ''equal'' components of ]. The predominate number of sources says that we will present the press's view that GG is really not about ethics as a major point, that is true. But because we are impartial and non-judgemental, we '''cannot''' present the press's view, that GG is really not about ethics, as a fact. It remains their opinion even if 99% of the sources state it. The GG view that it is about ethics is also an opinion, but we will impartially present both opinions as an impartial, non-judging entity documenting the situation, with weight appropriate to both sides (meaning very little but at least some for the GG side). And yes, some of the GG points they say are "ethics" are really about the culture but its still their arguments, even if misnamed/misguided. As long as high quality RS document them, we should be including them to be an impartial source. --] (]) 19:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
::::You keep making this claim and yet never identifying any actual issues in the article where we are not impartially transmitting what the sources say. Please begin identifying where these issues are occurring or drop your stick. -- ] 22:47, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::It's happening in these discussions, that's the problem. The draft article is moving too fast to state what the issues are, but its also something better to fix once the situation of GG is mostly stable (it's not yet). But attitudes on this page in the past have persisted to the article in the past (the past points have been changed enough), and so we have to temper the attitudes here. We're here to edit an impartial, neutral article on GG, not to comment on the GG situation ourselves, and when discussion here is not towards an impartial treatment, that is a problem. You're free to talk whatever smack you want personally about GG elsewhere in the Internet, but here we must stay neutral, regardless of any personal feelings on the matter. --] (]) 20:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
* Here's . I think we're definitely a point we can culminate that an outcome of GG, forcing the industry to re-evaluate itself in terms of how it treats women, is one thing, even if this is not what GG wanted or intended. --] (]) 20:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)


}}
== From Doxxing to Swatting ==
{{Press
|author=Alex Hern|url=https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/23/wikipedia-bans-editors-from-gender-related-articles-amid-gamergate-controversy|title=Misplaced Pages votes to ban some editors from gender-related articles|date=January 23, 2015|org=]
|author2=]|url2=https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/14/if-we-took-gamergate-harassment-seriously-pizzagate-might-never-have-happened/|date2=December 14, 2016|title2=If we took 'Gamergate' harassment seriously, 'Pizzagate' might never have happened|org2=]
|author3=]|url3=http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/02/wikipedia_gamergate_scandal_how_a_bad_source_made_wikipedia_wrong_about.html|title3=The Misplaced Pages Ouroboros|org3=Slate|date3=February 5, 2015
|author4=Dabitch|url4=http://adland.tv/adnews/wikipedia-perpetual-native-ad-machine/255028968|title4=Misplaced Pages: the perpetual motion native ad machine|org4=Adland|date4=February 5, 2015
|author5=Lauren C. Williams|url5=https://thinkprogress.org/wikipedia-wants-to-ban-feminists-from-editing-gamergate-articles-updated-6624e8987048#.6imluhnjw|org5=ThinkProgress|title5=Misplaced Pages Wants To Ban Feminists From Editing GamerGate Articles (Updated)|date5=January 26, 2015|archiveurl5=https://web.archive.org/web/20180929000042/https://thinkprogress.org/wikipedia-wants-to-ban-feminists-from-editing-gamergate-articles-updated-6624e8987048/|archivedate5=September 29, 2018
|author6=Daniel Greenfield|url6=http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/263914/gawker-editor-gamergate-was-our-most-effective-daniel-greenfield|title6=Gawker Editor: Gamergate Was Our Most Effective Enemy|org6=]|date6=August 20, 2016|archiveurl6=https://archive.ph/1GbLp|archivedate6=21 August 2016


|author7 = Sam Wineburg and Nadav Ziv
I've just added the below to https://en.wikipedia.org/Swatting. The escalation from doxxing to swatting is definitely noteworthy:
|title7 = Go ahead and use Misplaced Pages for research

|date7 = October 17, 2024
On January 3, 2015, twenty Portland, Oregon police officers were sent to the former home of ] and former ] Grace Lynn following four months of on-line harassment. <ref></ref> Her ] deescalated the situation, inasmuch as she proactively checks for on-line harassment daily. <ref></ref> <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 01:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
|org7 = ]
:Not saying this isn't something serious, but there's no evidence in the sources of this being tied to Gamergate. One of the sources cites an anonymous 8chan /baphomet/ (?) sub board post which appears to be about satanic goat worshippers who like to raid people. I know quite a lot of people were upset with this person when she didn't deliver on a kickstarter project. No qualms with its inclusion on the swatting article, though I think the language could use some clean-up. Concerns about how this would be included in this article as it would seem circumstantial. ] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
|url7 = https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/10/17/opinion/use-wikipedia-reliable-source/
::The oregonlive ref connects it directly to GamerGate; since they're a reliable source, that's sufficient to include it here. --] (]) 03:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
|lang7 =
:::{{tq| Earlier this month, she began proactively searching for her name. On Friday, she found an 8chan thread showing that users were planning to send a police SWAT team to her house. They said they weren't members of Gamergate, but Lynn said they are supporters of the movement. }} The source is reporting on her opinions, so if it's included it should be stated as that. ] (]) 03:47, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
|quote7 =
::::Correct, and given that the source took those opinions seriously enough to include them, and to headline the article "Gamergate," we can similarly report that Lynn stated her belief that the attackers were linked to Gamergate. Also, please don't insert unreliably-sourced claims into the encyclopedia. TechRaptor and Misplaced Pages are obviously not reliable sources, and I'm not sure there's any consensus about CrowdfundInsider — at any rate, the fact that it cites RooshV's "Reaxxion" brings the article into serious question. ] (]) 03:50, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
|archiveurl7 =
:::::Would you object to a direct citation of the kickstarter stating it failed, and me merely mentioning that? That seems to be good enough for Misplaced Pages's article on it. I agree techraptor is not a reliable source, there's no consensus on crowdfundinsider but it has been used on other articles here. ] (]) 03:53, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
|archivedate7 = <!-- do not wikilink -->
::::::Stating here that the Kickstarter failed is fine, but relating it to the swatting issue anywhere in articlespace would be ] unless there's a reliable source which has done so. ] (]) 03:55, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
|accessdate7 = October 18, 2024
::::::::I have stated it as such, and since ] does not apply to talk pages, I am not arguing for the mention of such in articlespace just stating it here. ] (]) 04:02, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
|collapsed=no
:A single local news source about something concerning someone from the area hardly warrants inclusion on this article.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 06:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
}}
::Sure it does. It's published in ], the largest newspaper in the state of Oregon. That's hardly a minor source. ] (]) 06:49, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
{{Top 25 Report|Oct 19 2014 (19th)}}
:::No it does not. This story is just "something happened here possibly connected to something else that has gotten national media attention!" A very weak connection made by an "in our area" story just does not cut it.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 07:18, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
}}
:Made the ] as well.<ref name="NYDaily">{{cite news |last=Silverstein |first=Jason |url=http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/gamergate-prank-sends-20-officers-woman-home-article-1.2065545 |title='I am afraid for my safety': California woman has 20 police sent to former home in Portland as part of Gamergate harassment campaign |work=] |location=New York |date=January 4, 2015 }}</ref> — ] (]) 23:53, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
{{page views}}
:Also now in ]: and ]: . The reliable sources reporting on this are multiplying. ] (]) 00:09, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
{{section sizes}}
::''The Verge'' states "It's obviously not hard to lie on the internet, but there's every reason to believe that this is an unaffiliated troll lashing out." While the Daily News garbles it a bit, they basically say this is Lynn's claim that it has anything to do with GamerGate. It should be understood that 8chan had posters well before GamerGate and people have recently flocked to 8chan for reasons only loosely connected with GamerGate such as the recent /pol/ shenanigans. Lynn, while being against GamerGate had also been campaigning against 8chan in general that had some success with removal of the site from Patreon. Another thing to keep in mind is that the old GamerGate board on 8chan is under the control of a GNAA troll who openly admits to inciting threats against prominent opponents of GamerGate to make GamerGate look bad. If we use two reports in non-local news as a basis for including this then it should be in the context of sources strongly pointing to it being unrelated trolls.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 01:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
{{Refideas|state=collapsed
::*{{green|But the actual swatting took place on a separate board for general anti-social mayhem, and users joked about Gamergate supporters "taking the fall" for the attack. It's obviously not hard to lie on the internet, but there's every reason to believe that this is an unaffiliated troll lashing out.}} I do think that this is notable for inclusion though, as the victim is a former GG supporter turned critic.]] ''']''' 04:55, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last=Beyer |first=Jessica L. |chapter=Trolls and Hacktivists: Political Mobilization from Online Communities |date=2021 |title=The Oxford Handbook of Digital Media Sociology |editor-last=Rohlinger |editor-first=Deana A. |publisher=Oxford University Press |doi=10.1093/oxfordhb/9780197510636.013.47 |isbn=978-0-19-751063-6 |editor2-last=Sobieraj |editor2-first=Sarah |pages=417–442}}
:::*When it gets some significant national coverage in reliable sources, it might be worth revisiting. ] (]) 12:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last=Condis |first=Megan |title=Gaming Masculinity: Trolls, Fake Geeks, and the Gendered Battle for Online Culture |year=2018 |publisher=University of Iowa Press |isbn=978-1-6093-8566-8 |pages=95–106 |jstor=j.ctv3dnq9f.12 |chapter=From #GamerGate to Donald Trump: Toxic Masculinity and the Politics of the Alt-Right}}

| {{cite news |last=Dewey |first=Caitlin |author-link=Caitlin Dewey |date=2016-02-17 |title=In the battle of Internet mobs vs. the law, the Internet mobs have won |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/02/17/in-the-battle-of-internet-mobs-vs-the-law-the-internet-mobs-have-won/ |url-status=live |work=] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230710005803/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/02/17/in-the-battle-of-internet-mobs-vs-the-law-the-internet-mobs-have-won/ |archive-date=2023-07-10 |access-date=2024-01-22 |url-access=limited}}
This story now has several references in reliable sources including The Oregonian and the New York Daily News, as we can see. --] 13:06, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last1=Donovan |first1=Joan |last2=Dreyfuss |first2=Emily |last3=Friedberg |first3=Brian |title=Meme Wars: The Untold Story of the Online Battles Upending Democracy in America |date=2022 |publisher=Bloomsbury Publishing |location=New York |isbn=978-1-63-557864-5}}

| {{cite book |last=Jones |first=Bethan |editor=Booth, Paul |title=A Companion to Media Fandom and Fan Studies |year=2018 |publisher=John Wiley & Sons |location=Hoboken, N.J. |isbn=978-1-1192-3716-7 |pages=415–429 |doi=10.1002/9781119237211.ch26 |chapter=#AskELJames, Ghostbusters, and #Gamergate: Digital Dislike and Damage Control |chapter-url=https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/epdf/10.1002/9781119237211.ch26 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
: More recent source: --] 19:59, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last=Kidd |first=Dustin |title=Social Media Freaks: Digital Identity in the Network Society |date=2018 |publisher=Routledge |location=New York |isbn=978-0-4299-7691-9 |chapter=GamerGate: Gender Perspectives on Social Media}}
<!-- Comments go above this line -->
| {{cite book |last1=O'Donnell |first1=Jessica |title=Gamergate and Anti-Feminism in the Digital Age |date=2022 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-031-14057-0 |pages=179–222 |doi=10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_6 |chapter=Changes Following Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_6 |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
{{reflist talk}}
| {{cite book |last1=O'Donnell |first1=Jessica |title=Gamergate and Anti-Feminism in the Digital Age |date=2022 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-031-14057-0 |pages=63–107 |doi=10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_3 |chapter=Gamers and Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_3 |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}

| {{cite book |editor1-last=Reyman |editor1-first=Jessica |editor2-last=Sparby |editor2-first=Erika |title=Digital Ethics: Rhetoric and Responsibility in Online Aggression |date=2020 |publisher=Routledge |location=New York |series=Routledge Studies in Rhetoric and Communication |isbn=978-0-367-21795-2 |edition=1st |doi=10.4324/9780429266140 |s2cid=189982687}}
== POV ==
| {{cite book |last=Ruffino |first=Paolo |title=Future Gaming: Creative Interventions in Video Game Culture |date=2018 |publisher=Goldsmiths Press |location=London |isbn=978-1-90-689755-0 |pages=104–119 |chapter=GamerGate: Becoming Parasites to Gaming}}

| {{cite journal |last=Salter |first=Michael |title=From Geek Masculinity to Gamergate: The Technological Rationality of Online Abuse |journal=Crime, Media, Culture |date=2018 |volume=14 |issue=2 |pages=247–264 |doi=10.1177/1741659017690893 |issn=1741-6604}}
I'm sure this has been talked about, but seriously, I don't know much about Gamergate and thought this article would help me understand it. It hasn't, because it presents a confused, one-sided picture. The opening paragraphs barely explain what the movement's actual stated goals are at all, and instead, they mostly just focus on the harassment of women. Since harassment and misogyny are obviously bad, it seems clear that the intended effect of these paragraphs is to discredit Gamergate and show it in a negative light. Maybe it deserves that, I don't know, but it seems quite POV, and that's against Misplaced Pages policy. This website's job is to explain, not to tell people what opinion to have. ] (]) 06:53, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last1=Veale |first1=Kevin |title=Gaming the Dynamics of Online Harassment |date=2020 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-030-60410-3 |pages=1–33 |doi=10.1007/978-3-030-60410-3_1 |chapter=Introduction: The Breadth of Harassment Culture and Contextualising Gamergate |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-030-60410-3_1 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
*{{ping|Granchi}} - is the opening paragraphs at ] better? We should really implement those. ]] ''']''' 07:02, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last1=Wilson |first1=Katie |editor1-last=Booth |editor1-first=Paul |title=A Companion to Media Fandom and Fan Studies |date=2018 |publisher=John Wiley & Sons |location=Hoboken, N.J. |isbn=978-1-119-23721-1 |pages=431–445 |doi=10.1002/9781119237211.ch27 |chapter=Red Pillers, Sad Puppies, and Gamergaters |chapter-url=https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/epdf/10.1002/9781119237211.ch27 |chapter-format=PDF |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
::I have no idea what the draft opening is trying to say, it's genuinely awful. ] (]) 12:13, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
| {{cite book |last1=Zuckerberg |first1=Donna |title=Not All Dead White Men: Classics and Misogyny in the Digital Age |date=2018 |publisher=Harvard University Press |isbn=978-0-6749-8982-5 |pages=}}
:::I too am left confused about the topic and puzzled at the article's clearly biased approach. ] 12:16, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
}}
::::Yes many editors are holding off on even bothering trying to improve the article until after the ArbCom case has concluded. ] (]) 22:47, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
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Just when we thought the seriously nasty stuff was over. --] 04:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
*Cite the news when you add the info. Sad news. ]] ''']''' 04:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

*There's already an open discussion on this higher up the page. ] (]) 04:47, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

:We are already discussing this above and the sources acknowledge that this is likely done by someone with no ties to GamerGate.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 07:58, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
{{hab}}

==Why are we citing First Things so much?==
I get impression that ] has inherited the mantle of Erik Kain in the draft article. According to the ref list is now up to five citations. Is it because of the novelty of a conservative view being expressed in a reliable source? --] 03:49, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
*If it's a reliable source, then what's the problem? The New Yorker is cited at least six times, The Washington Post at least eight, New York at least five, Vox at least seven, Columbia Journalism Review at least eight. ]] ''']''' 04:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:The article is a first-person opinion column, not a news story, and must be cited as such. {{tq|I write not because I am a Gamergate partisan—the movement was largely over by the time I had thoroughly investigated it—but because Mary Eberstadt is right: silence emboldens the practitioners of the New Intolerance. Gamergate was not a perfect movement, and neither was the loose coalition of conservatives, libertarians, and contrarians who opposed the social justice incursions into science fiction. But someone ought to speak out. If we wait for a perfect victim to emerge, we will be waiting forever.}} It's an interesting and useful source for a contrary opinion to the predominant one, but must be presented as such. ] (]) 04:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:: I've no problem with it being cited, but I worry that we often fall for a kind of recentism, picking up a novel article and giving it rather more weight than it can bear. The article suffers in such circumstances because one voice is being repeatedly juxtaposed to many others, in a way that gives it presentation false balance. It's a bit like altering our article on global warning to insert at length, and repeatedly, the views of the tiny minority of scientists who reject the well established greenhouse effect. --] 04:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::*The greenhouse effect is a scientific phenomenon. GamerGate is a huge mess. Now, on your "tiny minority" argument, if you'd look at the '''Misogyny and antifeminism''' section, we quote over ten sources (including The Washington Post / The Week / Iowa Public Radio / Macleans / Develop / GamesIndustry.biz / On the Media / The Daily Beast / Mother Jones / The New Yorker) who express an anti-GG POV, and you're protesting against one source (perhaps the only one) which provides a dissenting POV? You'd rather have 10-0 versus 10-1, that's balance to you? ]] ''']''' 05:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::When talking about weight in articles, we don't just talk about how many sources are used, but how frequently these sources are cited and to what extent Misplaced Pages uses these to display information. I believe Tony Sidaway is talking about how frequently the source is cited, not just it being cited (which he seems to not mind.) ] (]) 06:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::As I have pointed out above in my first comment, there are at least four more sources which have been cited more than First Things. Upon further reading, the New York Times has been cited seven times in the article, the Verge eight... get my point? ]] ''']''' 06:48, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::Those sources ''should'' be cited more, as they have each written multiple articles discussing the issue which represent the ] on the issue. ] (]) 07:44, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::But this is a social issue, not a scientific one. There are multiple ways of interpreting a social issue; there is no need to double down on a single standpoint, especially when one of your principal sources is ''The Verge'', which is a tech blog, not a journal of American society. ] ] 12:04, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::''The Verge'' is far more widely read and more respected journalistically than ''First Things'', an explicitly-religious, socially and politically conservative journal. Moreover, there aren't multiple ways of interpreting false allegations about living people. ] (]) 16:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::{{fact}} ] ] 16:56, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::Our article on '']'' helpfully describes them. {{tq| The journal is inter-denominational and inter-religious, representing a broad intellectual tradition of Christian and Jewish critique of contemporary society.}} {{tq|With a circulation of approximately 30,000 subscribers, First Things is considered to be influential in its articulation of a broadly ecumenical and erudite social and political conservatism.}} Meanwhile, '']'' nets at least 20 million unique visitors per month, as of last March, and is almost certainly higher today.
::::::::::I happen to think ''First Things'' is well-written and generally well-argued. But there can be no argument that it's anything but a platform for primarily conservative religious and social views. ] (]) 16:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::Is there something bad about expressing conservative religious views, that makes them not notable or relevant to American social upheaval? In the lead to that same article, we have a ''Newsweek'' quote calling ''First Things'' "the most important vehicle for exploring the tangled web of religion and society in the English-speaking world." I would argue that a religious outlook on social issues is ''more'' relevant than ''The Verge'' which is basically an industry and product review blog. How exactly do we determine who the most relevant voices are in American society? ] ] 17:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::The entire article reeks of recentism, and from one side of the discussion as well. There are more sources like First Things out there, we'd be smarter to find more like it than complain about reliable sources that are more accurate than the ones we currently use. ] (]) 12:37, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::It does not "reek" of one side of the discussion. The "discussion", such as it is, is the general public looking at gamergate and being rightfully thoroughly appalled at the vicious sexist harassment and essentially ignoring idiotic claims of "but ethical journalism will be just presenting 'objective' reviews of games - ie whether or not they are fun" -- ] 13:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I've said. It reeks of one side of the discussion. ] (]) 14:23, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::There is only one side, I'm afraid. The minor, dissenting "but ethics" point-of-view is not equatable, and is given the coverage that it is ], per policy. That is all we can do, is go by the reliable sources. ] (]) 14:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::As noted before, there are multiple sides and facets to this issue, of which only one gets a hearing here, and it's not due to the lack of coverage. This will be dealt with soon, I'm sure. No established editor wants to go outside of the reliable sources, but many of us do want the reliable sources used appropriately. ] (]) 14:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::The best way to make it better is to suggest changes, complete with appropriate sources. If the coverage is there (which I dispute but if it is there) then you should be able to do that.] (]) 15:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::Unfortunately, the well is so poisoned it's better to wait and see if the worst parties are removed from the topic area first. Even questions get you labeled a troll, so right now it's more an awareness thing in hopes some change their tune. ] (]) 15:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::That's been the 8chan/reddit playbook all along; agitate the real Misplaced Pages editors, run to Arbcom for relief, then hopefully return the atricle to all its Quinn/Sarkeesian/Wu-bashing early days It remains to bee seen whether this was an effective strategy or not, hopefully Arbcom was up to the task of drilling down to what really happened here. ] (]) 15:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::What any outside group wants is not my concern. I'm interested in a neutral article on a controversial topic, and we do not currently have that. ] (]) 15:39, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::Actually we do have that now, just needs a little quotefarm and bloat cleanup. The focu of the article as the Draft version stands is essentially correct. ] (]) 15:45, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::::The draft article has a very skewed focus that does not reflect the accuracy of the situation, which is a problem that will need resolution eventually. ] (]) 15:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Actually, it does reflect the accuracy of the situation, as per all the reliable sources. Even the movement's supporters (c.f. ''First Things'') admit that Gamergate is effectively dead at this point. The movement has devolved into random swatting, doxing and invective targeting its opponents, and isn't even pretending to be about "journalism ethics" at this point. ] (]) 16:33, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::This is what our article says, yes. The concern is what is actually occurring. ] (]) 16:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::You and others have been repeatedly invited to present the reliable sources which say something else is occurring. That you and others have been unable or unwilling to do so suggests the accuracy of the situation is, indeed, well-reflected by our article. ] (]) 16:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Many have and continue to do so. That the process has largely been driven by bad acting than fundamental encyclopedia building is why many of us, myself included, are taking a more wait-and-see approach. ] (]) 17:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
{{outdent}} Yes, we have all seen the attempts to present anonymous blogs and Breitbart as acceptable sources for salacious and highly defamatory claims about living people. They continue to not count as reliable sources. ] (]) 17:08, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:And I'll join you in continuing to not want to include those sources in there, while continuing to criticize the skew of this article and the behavior that has created the failed article we currently have. ] (]) 17:10, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Two of the five times First Things is cited its just a footnote that's been tacked on to something already cited in another source. So it's not really that overrepresented. ] (]) 21:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

* I'd say that it should just be stripped out. The purpose of the article is not to enumerate every comment anyone has made; the purpose is to give an overarching description of coverage. One blog post by a media commentator does not change that, and it is giving it ] weight to include it without further support that the opinion expressed is significant (eg. similar commentators stating similar things.) Additionally, after looking over it, it was frequently quoted in areas where the quote or opinion it was cited for was tangential to the topic of the paragraph; remember, quotes and cites shouldn't be added simply as a way of indirectly repeating your own opinions in the article, but because they genuinely illuminate noteworthy swaths of the public reaction. I'm not seeing that here. (Remember, we just managed to trim the article down from the QUOTEFARM warning; if people start citing random blogs to argue point / counterpoint against each other by proxy, it'll explode back to there in no time.) --] (]) 08:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
:*Oh come on. Any pro-GG POV is obviously the minority, so you're raising the bar to "noteworthy swaths", as well as dismissing the source as a "random blog". This plainly increases the partial slant of the article. ]] ''']''' 12:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
:::] You have stated it directly above, ] Since the mainstream views of the subject are near unanimous in their reception/view, per POLICY, our article will reflect such a view, and ONLY by doing so will the article be/retain its encyclopedic Neutral Point of View. -- ] 19:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
::::That's not what the policy says; we don't pick the predominate opinion and only present that. It will get the most details in the article, yes, but we don't simply omit other opinions. We cannot take any view even if it a near unaminous view taken by reliable sources, and we should be looking for reliable sources that cover the other side of the issue or give counterpoints, as long as those sources are strong reliable sources. I don't think this source qualifies as such, but the point is that to be neutral, we should be trying to find ways to be able to cover counter points if they are minority views; if more than singular sources express these points, we should be discussing them here. --] (]) 19:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
:: Aquillion's comment here goes to the heart of my concerns. The viewpoint expressed in that essay is an extreme outlier, so all bt most cursory references risk unbalancing our article. Indeed we're using it in several places to gainsay the overwhelming weight of informed opinion. --] 19:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
:::The fact that the viewpoint is different does not ''change'' the fact that ''First Things'' is one of the most reliable and notable sources when it comes to analysis of American civic life, and is far more noteworthy than the likes of ''Vox'' and ''The Verge''. ] ] 21:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
::::I note that ] has now removed the content twice despite the fact that he has neither justified his characterization nor indeed participated in this discussion at all. ] ] 21:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
::::Most reliable and notable according to whom? It's a religious magazine with a small readership as far as I can tell. Let's not over weight it. — ] (]) 21:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

==wikipedia R.I.P.==
{{hat|reason=Complaints about policy don't belong here. Try ] instead. — ] (]) 13:19, 6 January 2015 (UTC)}}
This article is a good example of why wikipedia falls apart due to taking verifiability and trusted sources over truth and original research. Many of the sentences in the article come from cited sources which publicly over Twitter support both Quinn and Sarkeesian, believing the entire affair an attack on women. Not surprisingly they are friends with other news writers, who use the original articles as study. The entire internet media report becomes an endless regurgitation of the same talking points over and over with no oversight or counterpoints. For lords sake you are citing people from comments on the article now?


==Sanctions enforcement==
I suppose I should have expected wikipedia to eventually be corrupted. The page will be never viewed as biased, since all your trusted sources are biased. Of course what I say here will never be mentioned in the actual page, because everything I say here is either from an untrusted source or original research. Therefore I am a crazy person who wears a tinfoil hat to bed every night. Have a good day wikipedia, I hope your editors get their kickbacks in the mail soon. ] (]) 06:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
<!-- START PIN -->{{Pin message|}}<!-- ] 12:00, 26 April 2035 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1840363256}}<!-- END PIN -->
All articles related to the ].


Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: ].
: Any real points to make, or does the article just not agree with your own point of view? Neither Quinn or Sarkeesian are 'news writers' so I'm not sure what point you're making.] (]) 10:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
:: {{ping|Kau-12}} You mentioned a quote from an article comments section being in the article, could you please state which quote you're talking about? With regards to your comment about public support, pretty much everyone who's written about Gamergate has an opinion on it and supports someone or the other, either publicly or privately. If we took your approach we wouldn't be able to cite anyone. Please note that people who have come out publicly in support of Gamer Gate over twitter, such as Allum Bokhari, William Usher and Cathy Young have also been cited when they have written for a reliable source. ] (]) 12:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
{{hab}}


<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) ] (UTC)</small>
== The Bund ==
I found a new source from a liberal swiss ] that offers a non partisan view of Gamergate including these interesting tidbits


== They/them pronoun confusion ==
#Misplaced Pages Vandalism
#How Gamergate members see every negative press mention in the mainstream media as a conspiracy against them (thus justifying the conspiracy category)
#How involved Journalists and Critics see gamersgate as a loud minority.
#Jimmy Wales telling both sides to calm down.
# A Big Group of gamers distancing themselves from the organised Harassment. A small number of members feeling that the gamergate hashtag is compromised who therefore want to start a new hashtag.


As someone who is not familiar with gamergate, there are some parts of the article which are confusing because of how Quinn's they/them pronouns are used.
its a start to the recentism issue. ] (]) 21:26, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
The lead currently contains the following sentence:


Gamergate began with an August 2014 blog entry called "The Zoe Post" by Quinn's ex-boyfriend, which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of <u>their</u> sexual relationship with a games journalist.
: It's from October (not necessarily a problem) and the article consistently misspells Gamergate (also not necessarily a problem, given it's a German language newspaper). What does it add to the topic, in your opinion? --] 03:45, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
::There is no such misspelling, it's probably your translator. I'd say the five points Avono above are what he thinks it adds? ]] ''']''' 05:02, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
::*2. {{green|Die Aktivisten und Unterstützer von Gamergate wähnen sich im Krieg gegen eine mediale Grossverschwörung, die «Gamer» als Sexisten brandmarken wolle und Vorwürfe um Interessenkonflikte der Spielepresse ignoriere.}}
::*3. {{green|Betroffene Journalisten und Kritiker sehen dagegen eine lautstarke Minderheit von Verschwörungstheoretikern am Werk}} and {{green|Der eigentliche Streit entzündete sich aber an einer Reihe von Artikeln über den Begriff «Gamer»: Verschiedene Onlinemagazine konstatierten, die Gameridentität werde von einer kleinen Gruppe vereinnahmt, die sich durch pubertäres und reaktionäres Männlichkeitsgehabe auszeichne.}}
::*5. {{green|Ein Grossteil der Spieler distanziert sich allerdings von den organisierten Hassaktionen. Einzelne Vertreter sind sogar der Meinung, man müsse den durch die Hasskampagne kompromittierten Begriff «Gamergate» aufgeben und ein neues, einendes Banner finden.}}


The sentence gives the impression that it's about a sexual relationship between Quinn, Quinn's ex-boyfried, and a games journalist. I know it's because Quinn's pronouns are they/them but their pronouns haven't been mentioned yet in the text.
: Yes, it was my translator. Don't we already cover these points in much greater depth, and with due weight, in the article? Some of the major mainstream press commentaries came after that Swiss article was written. --] 19:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


Then their pronouns are mentioned in a footnote, but it's still pretty confusing:
== Clarification request - Gamergate hastag ==


Called "The Zoe Post", it was a lengthy, detailed account of <u>their</u> relationship and breakup that included copies of personal chat logs, emails, and text messages. The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for <u>their</u> sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson, a reporter for the gaming websites Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun.
In the draft, under "Gamergate hashtag", we have this line:


I assume the first "their" is about the relationship between Quinn and Quinn's ex-boyfriend, and that the second "their" is about a relationship between Quinn and Grayson, but the second could still be interpreted as "Quinn's and Quinn's ex-boyfriends" sexual relationship.
"As of October 2014, it was estimated that there were at least 10,000 internet users supporting Gamergate"


I think these sentences should be written more clearly (by someone who knows what the sentences are supposed to mean). ] (]) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
This is rather vague - I really don't know what it's referencing. 10,000 people supporting which side? Or 10,000 people talking about it in general? What does "supporting" mean in this context? Can someone clarify?
:I agree. I've tried some very minor rewording - replaced the first "their" with "Quinn's" to read "which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of Quinn's sexual relationship with a games journalist", and removed the "their" from the second to give "The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for a sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson". Hopefully that reads better. - ] (]) 09:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)


== Wired article concerning Gamergate and Kamala Harris ==
Thanks. ] (]) 02:10, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


A discussion in ''Wired'' of the playbook that arose during the Gamergate campaign and how it has been used in other contexts '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 00:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
: Our article cites CJR on this. CJR is referring to an article in Deadspin which says "By most metrics, Gamergate comprises an insignificant fraction of video game fans. On Reddit, for example, the main staging ground for Gamergate has reached 10,000 readers, representing .17 percent of the more than six million readers on the general gaming subreddit." --] 19:09, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


== Transphobia and attempted outting of Brianna Wu ==
== Intel pledging $300M to support diversity following GG ==


Should it be added that several proponents of Gamergate attempted to out then stealth trans woman ] as part of the harassment campaign? ] (]) 07:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
This would be part of a section on the "result" of GG's actions of the industry seeing and trying to fix the problems it has with its own treatment of women as brought out by GG, per some of the above sections. --] (]) 02:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
:That's big news. Just added NY Times as a source for this, I'm sure more will come. — ] (]) 03:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
:: If you are still looking. -- ] 19:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


== Requested move 5 November 2024 ==
== Edit request ==


<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, inherit); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top -->
Do I reopen an edit request if it went unanswered and archived?--] (]) 04:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''
:{{yo|DoctorWho42}} Yes you do --] (]) 05:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


The result of the move request was: '''Not moved'''. There is a consensus here that the harassment campaign is not a primary topic &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;] (]) 20:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks!--] (]) 05:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
----


] → {{no redirect|Gamergate}} – In ] (12 November 2014), there was no consensus to move to Gamergate due to recentism and whether it is the primary topic. In ], there was consensus to move the ant species to use its qualifier. It is now clear that there is no recentism issue, and the hatnote indicates this is the primary topic "GamerGate redirects here. For other uses, see Gamergate (disambiguation)." ] (]) 22:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
== Protected edit request on 7 January 2015 ==


*A nitpick on the "primary topic" bit: ]—that is, ] with 2 capital Gs—redirects here, as nobody writes "GamerGate" when discussing the ant. It doesn't mean that this article is the primary topic. ] is a disambiguation page. Also, there have been 6 move discussions since that 2014 discussion, so I wouldn't put too much stock into just "recentism". They're all under the "Other talk page banners" banner at the top of the page. ] (]) 23:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
{{edit protected|Gamergate controversy|answered=y}}
*'''Support''' I really don’t think anyone outside of biologists even knows “gamergate” is a type of ant. This isn’t like the infamous ] vs. ] debacle— one’s an obscure technical term and the other is an extremely infamous harassment campaign. ] (]) 00:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
<!-- Begin request -->
*:agreed! ] (]) 20:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
wiki-link to ]
*'''Support''' per nom.--] (]) 19:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
<!-- End request -->
*'''Oppose''' as there is still data coming out about both topics and "obscure" is only of value as a term when used to demote the usage of something outside ones scope of knowledge. Gamergate as a caste of ant social structure is not going to go away at any point. The harassment campaign is over, and as the legacy section shows, each years coverage has moved more and more to basic level "compared to" analogies and a full lack of in-depth conversation. Recentism seems to clearly be applicable here.--]] ] 23:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
--] (]) 13:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Woodroar and Kevmin. This gets rehashed frequently, but there's still no policy-based reason to move the article from its current name. We should retain the disambiguation page at ] and keep this page as-is. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 13:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:Probably best to wait until the completion of the ] process. — ] (]) 13:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I suppose I'll add an official !vote here. The harassment campaign article currently gets more views than the ant article. And given the campaign's influence on the alt-right and later harassment and disinformation campaigns, I don't see that interest disappearing tomorrow or next year—but I also can't see it staying relevant forever. Every retrospective I've read puts it firmly in the past, not an ongoing event. The ant was named first and gamergate ants will almost certainly outlast the relevance of the harassment campaign, Misplaced Pages itself, and probably humans. I don't think it's a burden for searchers to land at a disambiguation page where they can see options for the harassment campaign and ant, or for the ''Adventure Time'' character or note about ]. I mean, to be fair, the camelcase ] redirect should probably go to the disambiguation page as well, just to help dispel that confusion. ] (]) 17:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::That's fair.--] (]) 17:20, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
*:This won't stay relevant forever, but as long as culture war isn't over, this would be the primary topic in most people's head, and a contentious topic at that. I am hesitant to do a ] here, but I am quite sure culture war will continue for at least 20 years per ], it will be very useful to keep this as primary topic during that time. ] (]) 18:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate. ]] 22:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*:{{tq|nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate}}{{cn}} This seems to sit squarely in statements without data territory. You're saying nobody at all searches for the ant caste by its ''official name''??--]] ] 23:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
*::Yeah, Not sure what sort of demographic group is searching for ant castes named Gamergate... unless they knew it was an ant and put (ant) at the end. ]] 05:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::The problem here is that "knowing to put (ant) at the end" is learned behavior for searching and editing on wikipedia, not innate search behavior taught in school or higher education. You are creating a ] that the ant is NOT a search topic ever and using that to endorse your position.--]] ] 19:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Gamergate was a decade ago already, periodically re-upped or mentioned in passing as a historic footnote to the alt-right. The ant is eternal. The "for other uses" at the top likely needs refining is all I would say. And, unrelated to this specifically, the article long ago needed a rewrite. ] (]) 02:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' “the ant will always be relevant” is technically true, but dismissing Gamergate the harassment campaign as just something that will fade away in ''x'' years is ]. If we took this ''ad absurdum'', you could say the primary topic of ''Mario'' being ] is recentism, because ] has been around much longer, but that is obviously silly because there’s only one “Mario” most people are thinking of when they type it in. Similarly, who is seriously searching for information on a type of ant when they look up “gamergate”? None of the first-page hits on DuckDuckGo are for the ant besides its Misplaced Pages page. ] (]) 14:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*:It already has faded away and is referenced in the past tense. It was a thing that happened briefly a decade ago. The people searching Gamergate for ants (or writing thesis, or producing research content, or studying entomology) are the same ones doing it before 2016, and will continue to do so forever because it is, like, science. This does not mean Gamergate ceases to be mentioned, or doesn't generate hits or search results - and why prior consensus agreed on the disambiguation. This is also why the sentence {{tq|In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage (Apple Inc.) and one of primary long-term significance (Apple). In such a case, consensus may be useful in determining which topic, if any, is the primary topic}} exists. Mario meanwhile is covered later by the statement: {{tq|Non-encyclopedic uses of a term are irrelevant for primary topic purposes; for example, ] is about a Korean pop band, despite the existence of the common English word "twice", as the latter is not a topic suitable for an encyclopedic article}} of WP:PRIMARY. ] (]) 21:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
*::“Happened in the past” is not a measure of relevance any more than happening in the present is. Is ] irrelevant because it only lasted a few days? Is Randy In Boise’s Junkyard Band relevant because they’re currently touring garages in the vicinity of ]? ] (]) 12:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::It very specifically is a measure of long term relevance as referenced in the example of Apple Inc vs Apple. The significance of coverage of the event confers notability for the creation of an article. After the event, the significance is maintained through repeated coverage. Woodstock (as the given example) has persistent, repeated, significant and notable coverage and new significant material produced about it annually (along with insignificant and non-notable coverage where it is merely referenced). Gamergate as a harassment campaign isn't. Gamergate occasionally comes up in single instances of research, commonly referenced as a precursor to some element of the Alt Right - but the topic itself isn't discussed, rather it is used as a bellwether type event. There are typically articles written from time to time with titles such as "What we didn't learn from Gamergate" etc but there is little meaningful content (either about the victims, the actions, and certainly not the perpetrators beyond the speculative attribution of the thing to a group of people who may or may not be now a part of another thing). In contrast (per example previous) Apple Inc is likely the most searched topic, the most routinely covered and so on - but an Apple is an ], Valve is a ], just as a Gamergate should be a Gamergate. ] (]) 01:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
*::::Except nobody knows what a gamergate ''is'' besides an entomologist. It isn’t even considered a valid word by my spellcheck, i.e, it’s an obscure technical term almost nobody uses. ] (]) 00:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Arguments from incredulity do not really give any traction to your point though (you not looking for the Caste =/= NO ONE searches for the caste). Policy is where changes come from, and as it stands now, there is a continually decreasing amount of novel coverage for the harassment campaign, while the ant caste isn't going to go anywhere an has the lasting persistence of science topics.--]] ] 18:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Bkonrad’s argument directly below is concrete evidence that almost nobody is looking for the ant. The opposes are many, but they’re all based on four main arguments: “]” “]” “]” and “]”; these are all vague and subjective in their importance. ] (]) 07:34, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::Bkonrad’s argument missed all the points the {{yo|KoA}} provided regarding the nuance of flash in the pan events vrs established topics with lasting use in a field. A situation you also are ignoring,--]] ] 19:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::Yes, there is a small population of individuals in a narrow field of study who might use the term with some frequency (some of whom are apparently thin-skinned enough to get bent out of shape that more people are interested in other things). This niche technical term in is dwarfed by the overwhelming disparity in what readers of this encyclopedia are looking for. Any comparison with Apple (fruit) vs Apple (company) is without merit. Nearly every speaker of English knows what the Apple fruit is, even if the company generates more traffic. For gamergate, it is likely less than .01% of English speakers who know about (or might ever think to look up) the ant-related topic. ] ≠ ] 20:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. This is a bit ridiculous. The and show pretty overwhelmingly what readers are looking for in this case and it is not ants. The ants can be added specifically to the hatnote in addition to the dab so readers looking for the ant are still only one click aways just as they would be with the current setup. ] ≠ ] 17:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. ] (]) 00:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''', if we can make a compromise, why not rename the ant article to Gamergate (insect/or ant)? ] (]) 19:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment.''' Nothing that prior to this comment, the other affected page on the ants was never notified. That's an inappropriate ] in terms of notification when comments are being made about the ants while leaving out the audience that would be most knowledgeable about it when discussing ] and focusing instead on only this page's audience instead. I didn't notice this was going on until I stopped over at the disambig page's talk today. I'll put notifications up shortly. ] (]) 19:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*:Idk what that means ] (]) 21:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*::@]; Primary topic grabs typically require multi-page moves, but if they don't, it is still courtesy to notify the other pages listed on the disambiguation. ] (]) 07:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. While this topic certainly still gets mentioned, coverage has declined sharply; it seems silly to suggest that it would be more appropriate as the main article than it was a decade ago when it was in full-swing. --] (]) 20:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose.''' per ]. It's one thing to have the current disambiguation setup, but to call the harassment topic the primary topic would be a huge pardigm shift from previous discussions that isn't reflected here. I'll get into the substance below, but this does feel like a bludgeon for editors at the ant page not wanting to have to deal with a controversial topic. Over the last 10 years, this page has had a lot of controversy over its title and ambiguity on what to call itself to the point moratoriums have been put in place on RMs partially to give the ant topic a break. For the harassment topic to suddenly be the primary, there would have to be something huge that changed that wasn't covered ad nauseum in all the past RMs. Here's the history I had from the last RM below:
*#https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1041117019#Requested_move_20_August_2021
*#https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1039653835#Requested_move_12_August_2021
*#]
*#]
*#] (moratorium put in place on requested moves)
*#]
*#]
*#]
*#]
*#]
*:This initial proposal leaves out a lot of what actually happened in the , but the core issue here is that comments in support aren't really addressing the core issues found in the last move. It wasn't primarily a matter of recentism, but instead rangling with two aspects of PTOPIC:
*#{{tq|A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.}}
*#{{tq|A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.}}
*:For the time being, the harassment campaign has higher views in terms of PT1, but all of our guidance related to views, search hits, etc. have strong cautions against carte blanche use of those stats, especially in terms of ] and our internet audience where internet topics like the harassment topic are going to be more popular. For PT2 though, that's where the ant has a pretty clear case. Previous closes were clear too {{tq|it is apparent that a clear majority of the community would prefer a primary topic in favour of long-term significance}}. Personally I think that puts the ant squarely as the primary topic even when weighing all of that with an even hand. With that said, the harassment campaign over 10 years never had primary topic status, though in the 2021 RM, it was just split down the middle to have a disambiguation page instead of having the ant as the primary topic. That at least did stop the RMs for a time, but I'm not seeing anything here that would suggest that something has majorly changed on that side since 2021.
*:The other issue I'm seeing is the naming of the harassment campaign regardless of the ants. All the RMs I mentioned above show the history of how much the topic title has morphed and been contentious. Calling it the harassment campaign parenthetical seemed to finally settle that down, but undoing that is going to increase the ambiguity again. At the end of the day, the last RM at least made it so no one is astonished. You type Gamergate into the search and you're either going to see the two options you want already Gamergate (ant) or Gamergate (harassment campaign). If you click the first result, you get the disambiguation page which guides you even more. Unless there's a major resurgence of Gamergate-related harassment in coming years that truly adds to the event, it's pretty hard for it to leap-frog two levels up to the definitive primary topic. ] (]) 21:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*::I thought I'd revive a bit I wrote at the last RM that actually focuses on the ant side of things.
*::A gamergate is a worker ant that is able to reproduce, which the article outlines as unique for most ant species. This currently impacts all individuals of species within at least five ] and 17 ] (as opposed to only a of subset of individuals within the species ] for the harassment event). For the ants (or really any biological trait this fixed in multiple species), there is not a ] this million-year+ old trait will just suddenly disappear and stop affecting all of these species. In fact, that CRYSTAL policy specifically calls out such arguments as a violation: {{tq|Although currently accepted scientific paradigms may later be rejected, and hypotheses previously held to be controversial or incorrect sometimes become accepted by the scientific community, it is not the place of Misplaced Pages to venture such projections.}} When scientists name these traits, they are generally also stable in usage ] is a similar example of these terminology being common in biology.
*::Much of this long-term impact is something inherent to ]/biology topics and is why PTOPIC also mentions long-term education aspects being of higher value. On that note, ant gamergates are something that’s likely to come up in biology textbooks when discussing ant colonies since ] animals are often a common example in varying degrees for both kids and college students. It might be a footnote in more basic biology books, but if you get into common intro-level courses at say college, this kind of thing can easily come up in sections dealing with insect diversity.
*::While common usage metrics have consistently been an issue for this discussion, looking at scholarly metrics helps. Google Scholar is well known, but generally not that reliable for things like citation metrics, etc. because they include a lot of non-scholarly sources. is usually a more conservative (scientifically, not political) search engine in that regard. Just typing in gamergate gave 189 articles (49 more than in 2021). Of these, 94 mostly focus on the gamergate ant, and 95 involved the harassment topic. That's giving the harassment topic a handicap since that includes mere mentions of Gamergate in that context in the search parameters. That paints a very different picture than those haphazardly using Google searches. At the least academic attention (or use) isn't any higher for the harassment topic, so you'd be hard pressed to call that the primary topic based on search hits. ] is what really anchors discussion here. ] (]) 21:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per KoA and others, the fact that people are finding the article they are interested in via the disambiguation and also learning about other uses supports retention of status quo. ] (]) 02:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per ]. While the harassment campaign is more notable in tv news and right-wing twitter/X/parler, it is not necessarily so world-wide, and most importantly, in the scholarly literature. See also: . Misplaced Pages is a scholarship-driven institution, and harassment of video game journalists is not any more important than entomology in the world of scholarship. Keep the disambiguation page, and keep these two pages (ant) and (harassment campaign) disambiguated. —&nbsp;] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 18:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Pure pageviews and Google hits are not the sole criterion of primary topics. As per others, mentions of the ants and the harassers are pretty balanced in scholarship, if not having the ants come out on top. Can we put a permanent moratorium on move discussions now? The "harassment campaign" part of the title gives ] editors a good reason to keep attempting this move for the foreseeable future. ] (]) 12:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Leave how the title is and don't change it, or change it to "GamerGate". I'm only speaking for the title, btw. ] • (]&#124;]). 05:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] -->
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Section sizes
Section size for Gamergate (harassment campaign) (30 sections)
Section name Byte
count		 Section
total
(Top) 7,532 7,532
History 12 24,274
Zoë Quinn and Depression Quest 8,674 8,674
Anita Sarkeesian and Tropes vs. Women in Video Games 4,118 4,118
Brianna Wu 2,212 2,212
Other targets of harassment 4,785 4,785
Coordination of harassment 4,473 4,473
Demographics 1,742 1,742
Organization 6,272 14,948
Harassment and Twitter 2,598 2,598
Efforts to affect public perceptions 3,442 3,442
Targeting advertisers 1,100 1,100
Sad Puppies 1,536 1,536
Purpose and goals 8,967 8,967
Social, cultural, and political impact 3,100 20,723
Gamer identity 6,370 6,370
Misogyny and sexism 6,365 6,365
Law enforcement 4,888 4,888
Gaming industry response 6,868 6,868
Representation in media 3,227 3,227
Reducing online harassment 2,438 2,438
Legacy 10,955 34,355
2015–2018 5,223 5,223
2019 4,618 4,618
2020–2021 4,176 4,176
2022–present 9,383 9,383
See also 180 180
Notes 24 24
References 111,543 111,543
External links 1,105 1,105
Total 237,926 237,926
Reference ideas for Gamergate (harassment campaign)The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

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— Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRedPenOfDoom (talk • contribs) 21:18, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

They/them pronoun confusion

As someone who is not familiar with gamergate, there are some parts of the article which are confusing because of how Quinn's they/them pronouns are used. The lead currently contains the following sentence: 

Gamergate began with an August 2014 blog entry called "The Zoe Post" by Quinn's ex-boyfriend, which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of their sexual relationship with a games journalist.

The sentence gives the impression that it's about a sexual relationship between Quinn, Quinn's ex-boyfried, and a games journalist. I know it's because Quinn's pronouns are they/them but their pronouns haven't been mentioned yet in the text.

Then their pronouns are mentioned in a footnote, but it's still pretty confusing: 

Called "The Zoe Post", it was a lengthy, detailed account of their relationship and breakup that included copies of personal chat logs, emails, and text messages. The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for their sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson, a reporter for the gaming websites Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun.

I assume the first "their" is about the relationship between Quinn and Quinn's ex-boyfriend, and that the second "their" is about a relationship between Quinn and Grayson, but the second could still be interpreted as "Quinn's and Quinn's ex-boyfriends" sexual relationship.

I think these sentences should be written more clearly (by someone who knows what the sentences are supposed to mean). Paditor (talk) 08:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I've tried some very minor rewording - replaced the first "their" with "Quinn's" to read "which falsely insinuated that Quinn had received a favorable review because of Quinn's sexual relationship with a games journalist", and removed the "their" from the second to give "The blog falsely implied that Quinn received a favorable review of Depression Quest in exchange for a sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson". Hopefully that reads better. - Bilby (talk) 09:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Wired article concerning Gamergate and Kamala Harris

A discussion in Wired of the playbook that arose during the Gamergate campaign and how it has been used in other contexts Acroterion (talk) 00:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Transphobia and attempted outting of Brianna Wu

Should it be added that several proponents of Gamergate attempted to out then stealth trans woman Brianna Wu as part of the harassment campaign? Turtletennisfogwheat (talk) 07:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 5 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a consensus here that the harassment campaign is not a primary topic  — Amakuru (talk) 20:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Gamergate (harassment campaign) → Gamergate – In /Archive 13#Requested moves (12 November 2014), there was no consensus to move to Gamergate due to recentism and whether it is the primary topic. In Talk:Gamergate (ant)/Archive 3#Requested move 20 August 2021, there was consensus to move the ant species to use its qualifier. It is now clear that there is no recentism issue, and the hatnote indicates this is the primary topic "GamerGate redirects here. For other uses, see Gamergate (disambiguation)." Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 22:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  • A nitpick on the "primary topic" bit: GamerGate—that is, camel case with 2 capital Gs—redirects here, as nobody writes "GamerGate" when discussing the ant. It doesn't mean that this article is the primary topic. Gamergate is a disambiguation page. Also, there have been 6 move discussions since that 2014 discussion, so I wouldn't put too much stock into just "recentism". They're all under the "Other talk page banners" banner at the top of the page. Woodroar (talk) 23:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support I really don’t think anyone outside of biologists even knows “gamergate” is a type of ant. This isn’t like the infamous Bill O’Riley vs. Bill O’Riley debacle— one’s an obscure technical term and the other is an extremely infamous harassment campaign. Dronebogus (talk) 00:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
    agreed! Laugoose (talk) 20:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose as there is still data coming out about both topics and "obscure" is only of value as a term when used to demote the usage of something outside ones scope of knowledge. Gamergate as a caste of ant social structure is not going to go away at any point. The harassment campaign is over, and as the legacy section shows, each years coverage has moved more and more to basic level "compared to" analogies and a full lack of in-depth conversation. Recentism seems to clearly be applicable here.--Kevmin § 23:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Woodroar and Kevmin. This gets rehashed frequently, but there's still no policy-based reason to move the article from its current name. We should retain the disambiguation page at Gamergate and keep this page as-is. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I suppose I'll add an official !vote here. The harassment campaign article currently gets more views than the ant article. And given the campaign's influence on the alt-right and later harassment and disinformation campaigns, I don't see that interest disappearing tomorrow or next year—but I also can't see it staying relevant forever. Every retrospective I've read puts it firmly in the past, not an ongoing event. The ant was named first and gamergate ants will almost certainly outlast the relevance of the harassment campaign, Misplaced Pages itself, and probably humans. I don't think it's a burden for searchers to land at a disambiguation page where they can see options for the harassment campaign and ant, or for the Adventure Time character or note about GamersGate. I mean, to be fair, the camelcase GamerGate redirect should probably go to the disambiguation page as well, just to help dispel that confusion. Woodroar (talk) 17:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
    This won't stay relevant forever, but as long as culture war isn't over, this would be the primary topic in most people's head, and a contentious topic at that. I am hesitant to do a WP:CRYSTAL here, but I am quite sure culture war will continue for at least 20 years per WP:RECENT#WP:20YEARTEST, it will be very useful to keep this as primary topic during that time. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate. Scuba 22:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
    nobody is looking for a niche ant when they're searching for gamergate This seems to sit squarely in statements without data territory. You're saying nobody at all searches for the ant caste by its official name??--Kevmin § 23:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
    Yeah, Not sure what sort of demographic group is searching for ant castes named Gamergate... unless they knew it was an ant and put (ant) at the end. Scuba 05:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    The problem here is that "knowing to put (ant) at the end" is learned behavior for searching and editing on wikipedia, not innate search behavior taught in school or higher education. You are creating a strawman argument that the ant is NOT a search topic ever and using that to endorse your position.--Kevmin § 19:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Gamergate was a decade ago already, periodically re-upped or mentioned in passing as a historic footnote to the alt-right. The ant is eternal. The "for other uses" at the top likely needs refining is all I would say. And, unrelated to this specifically, the article long ago needed a rewrite. Koncorde (talk) 02:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment “the ant will always be relevant” is technically true, but dismissing Gamergate the harassment campaign as just something that will fade away in x years is WP:CRYSTAL. If we took this ad absurdum, you could say the primary topic of Mario being the video game character is recentism, because the name itself has been around much longer, but that is obviously silly because there’s only one “Mario” most people are thinking of when they type it in. Similarly, who is seriously searching for information on a type of ant when they look up “gamergate”? None of the first-page hits on DuckDuckGo are for the ant besides its Misplaced Pages page. Dronebogus (talk) 14:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    It already has faded away and is referenced in the past tense. It was a thing that happened briefly a decade ago. The people searching Gamergate for ants (or writing thesis, or producing research content, or studying entomology) are the same ones doing it before 2016, and will continue to do so forever because it is, like, science. This does not mean Gamergate ceases to be mentioned, or doesn't generate hits or search results - and why prior consensus agreed on the disambiguation. This is also why the sentence In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage (Apple Inc.) and one of primary long-term significance (Apple). In such a case, consensus may be useful in determining which topic, if any, is the primary topic exists. Mario meanwhile is covered later by the statement: Non-encyclopedic uses of a term are irrelevant for primary topic purposes; for example, Twice is about a Korean pop band, despite the existence of the common English word "twice", as the latter is not a topic suitable for an encyclopedic article of WP:PRIMARY. Koncorde (talk) 21:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    “Happened in the past” is not a measure of relevance any more than happening in the present is. Is Woodstock irrelevant because it only lasted a few days? Is Randy In Boise’s Junkyard Band relevant because they’re currently touring garages in the vicinity of Ada County? Dronebogus (talk) 12:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
    It very specifically is a measure of long term relevance as referenced in the example of Apple Inc vs Apple. The significance of coverage of the event confers notability for the creation of an article. After the event, the significance is maintained through repeated coverage. Woodstock (as the given example) has persistent, repeated, significant and notable coverage and new significant material produced about it annually (along with insignificant and non-notable coverage where it is merely referenced). Gamergate as a harassment campaign isn't. Gamergate occasionally comes up in single instances of research, commonly referenced as a precursor to some element of the Alt Right - but the topic itself isn't discussed, rather it is used as a bellwether type event. There are typically articles written from time to time with titles such as "What we didn't learn from Gamergate" etc but there is little meaningful content (either about the victims, the actions, and certainly not the perpetrators beyond the speculative attribution of the thing to a group of people who may or may not be now a part of another thing). In contrast (per example previous) Apple Inc is likely the most searched topic, the most routinely covered and so on - but an Apple is an Apple, Valve is a Valve, just as a Gamergate should be a Gamergate. Koncorde (talk) 01:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
    Except nobody knows what a gamergate is besides an entomologist. It isn’t even considered a valid word by my spellcheck, i.e, it’s an obscure technical term almost nobody uses. Dronebogus (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
    Arguments from incredulity do not really give any traction to your point though (you not looking for the Caste =/= NO ONE searches for the caste). Policy is where changes come from, and as it stands now, there is a continually decreasing amount of novel coverage for the harassment campaign, while the ant caste isn't going to go anywhere an has the lasting persistence of science topics.--Kevmin § 18:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
    Bkonrad’s argument directly below is concrete evidence that almost nobody is looking for the ant. The opposes are many, but they’re all based on four main arguments: “it’s too old” “it’s too new” “it’s the status quo” and “the ant is just more worthy”; these are all vague and subjective in their importance. Dronebogus (talk) 07:34, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
    Bkonrad’s argument missed all the points the @KoA: provided regarding the nuance of flash in the pan events vrs established topics with lasting use in a field. A situation you also are ignoring,--Kevmin § 19:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, there is a small population of individuals in a narrow field of study who might use the term with some frequency (some of whom are apparently thin-skinned enough to get bent out of shape that more people are interested in other things). This niche technical term in is dwarfed by the overwhelming disparity in what readers of this encyclopedia are looking for. Any comparison with Apple (fruit) vs Apple (company) is without merit. Nearly every speaker of English knows what the Apple fruit is, even if the company generates more traffic. For gamergate, it is likely less than .01% of English speakers who know about (or might ever think to look up) the ant-related topic. older ≠ wiser 20:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support. This is a bit ridiculous. The page views and wikinav show pretty overwhelmingly what readers are looking for in this case and it is not ants. The ants can be added specifically to the hatnote in addition to the dab so readers looking for the ant are still only one click aways just as they would be with the current setup. older ≠ wiser 17:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Theparties (talk) 00:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Support, if we can make a compromise, why not rename the ant article to Gamergate (insect/or ant)? Cburt777 (talk) 19:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment. Nothing that prior to this comment, the other affected page on the ants was never notified. That's an inappropriate WP:VOTESTACK in terms of notification when comments are being made about the ants while leaving out the audience that would be most knowledgeable about it when discussing WP:PTOPIC and focusing instead on only this page's audience instead. I didn't notice this was going on until I stopped over at the disambig page's talk today. I'll put notifications up shortly. KoA (talk) 19:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
    Idk what that means Cburt777 (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
    @Cburt777; Primary topic grabs typically require multi-page moves, but if they don't, it is still courtesy to notify the other pages listed on the disambiguation. Sennecaster (Chat) 07:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. While this topic certainly still gets mentioned, coverage has declined sharply; it seems silly to suggest that it would be more appropriate as the main article than it was a decade ago when it was in full-swing. --Aquillion (talk) 20:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. per WP:PTOPIC. It's one thing to have the current disambiguation setup, but to call the harassment topic the primary topic would be a huge pardigm shift from previous discussions that isn't reflected here. I'll get into the substance below, but this does feel like a bludgeon for editors at the ant page not wanting to have to deal with a controversial topic. Over the last 10 years, this page has had a lot of controversy over its title and ambiguity on what to call itself to the point moratoriums have been put in place on RMs partially to give the ant topic a break. For the harassment topic to suddenly be the primary, there would have to be something huge that changed that wasn't covered ad nauseum in all the past RMs. Here's the history I had from the last RM below:
    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1041117019#Requested_move_20_August_2021
    2. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=1039653835#Requested_move_12_August_2021
    3. Talk:Gamergate_(ant)/Archive_1#Requested_move_28_December_2015
    4. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_45#Requested_move_30_August_2015
    5. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_46#Requested_move_20_September_2015 (moratorium put in place on requested moves)
    6. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_32#How_about_calling_this_article_.22GamerGate.22
    7. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_30#.22Movement.22_or_.22Controversy.22
    8. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_28#Requested_move_14_February_2015
    9. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_13#Requested_moves
    10. Talk:Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)/Archive_37#Requested_move_15_May_2015
    This initial proposal leaves out a lot of what actually happened in the last RM, but the core issue here is that comments in support aren't really addressing the core issues found in the last move. It wasn't primarily a matter of recentism, but instead rangling with two aspects of PTOPIC:
    1. A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
    2. A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.
    For the time being, the harassment campaign has higher views in terms of PT1, but all of our guidance related to views, search hits, etc. have strong cautions against carte blanche use of those stats, especially in terms of WP:NWFCTM and our internet audience where internet topics like the harassment topic are going to be more popular. For PT2 though, that's where the ant has a pretty clear case. Previous closes were clear too it is apparent that a clear majority of the community would prefer a primary topic in favour of long-term significance. Personally I think that puts the ant squarely as the primary topic even when weighing all of that with an even hand. With that said, the harassment campaign over 10 years never had primary topic status, though in the 2021 RM, it was just split down the middle to have a disambiguation page instead of having the ant as the primary topic. That at least did stop the RMs for a time, but I'm not seeing anything here that would suggest that something has majorly changed on that side since 2021.
    The other issue I'm seeing is the naming of the harassment campaign regardless of the ants. All the RMs I mentioned above show the history of how much the topic title has morphed and been contentious. Calling it the harassment campaign parenthetical seemed to finally settle that down, but undoing that is going to increase the ambiguity again. At the end of the day, the last RM at least made it so no one is astonished. You type Gamergate into the search and you're either going to see the two options you want already Gamergate (ant) or Gamergate (harassment campaign). If you click the first result, you get the disambiguation page which guides you even more. Unless there's a major resurgence of Gamergate-related harassment in coming years that truly adds to the event, it's pretty hard for it to leap-frog two levels up to the definitive primary topic. KoA (talk) 21:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
    I thought I'd revive a bit I wrote at the last RM that actually focuses on the ant side of things.
    A gamergate is a worker ant that is able to reproduce, which the article outlines as unique for most ant species. This currently impacts all individuals of species within at least five subfamilies and 17 genera (as opposed to only a of subset of individuals within the species Homo sapiens for the harassment event). For the ants (or really any biological trait this fixed in multiple species), there is not a reasonable doubt this million-year+ old trait will just suddenly disappear and stop affecting all of these species. In fact, that CRYSTAL policy specifically calls out such arguments as a violation: Although currently accepted scientific paradigms may later be rejected, and hypotheses previously held to be controversial or incorrect sometimes become accepted by the scientific community, it is not the place of Misplaced Pages to venture such projections. When scientists name these traits, they are generally also stable in usage Mermithergate is a similar example of these terminology being common in biology.
    Much of this long-term impact is something inherent to WP:SCHOLARSHIP/biology topics and is why PTOPIC also mentions long-term education aspects being of higher value. On that note, ant gamergates are something that’s likely to come up in biology textbooks when discussing ant colonies since eusocial animals are often a common example in varying degrees for both kids and college students. It might be a footnote in more basic biology books, but if you get into common intro-level courses at say college, this kind of thing can easily come up in sections dealing with insect diversity.
    While common usage metrics have consistently been an issue for this discussion, looking at scholarly metrics helps. Google Scholar is well known, but generally not that reliable for things like citation metrics, etc. because they include a lot of non-scholarly sources. Web of Science is usually a more conservative (scientifically, not political) search engine in that regard. Just typing in gamergate gave 189 articles (49 more than in 2021). Of these, 94 mostly focus on the gamergate ant, and 95 involved the harassment topic. That's giving the harassment topic a handicap since that includes mere mentions of Gamergate in that context in the search parameters. That paints a very different picture than those haphazardly using Google searches. At the least academic attention (or use) isn't any higher for the harassment topic, so you'd be hard pressed to call that the primary topic based on search hits. WP:PT2 is what really anchors discussion here. KoA (talk) 21:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per KoA and others, the fact that people are finding the article they are interested in via the disambiguation and also learning about other uses supports retention of status quo. Shyamal (talk) 02:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:PTOPIC. While the harassment campaign is more notable in tv news and right-wing twitter/X/parler, it is not necessarily so world-wide, and most importantly, in the scholarly literature. See also: Ngrams for GamerGate vs Gamergate vs gamergate. Misplaced Pages is a scholarship-driven institution, and harassment of video game journalists is not any more important than entomology in the world of scholarship. Keep the disambiguation page, and keep these two pages (ant) and (harassment campaign) disambiguated. — Shibbolethink 18:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Pure pageviews and Google hits are not the sole criterion of primary topics. As per others, mentions of the ants and the harassers are pretty balanced in scholarship, if not having the ants come out on top. Can we put a permanent moratorium on move discussions now? The "harassment campaign" part of the title gives WP:SPA editors a good reason to keep attempting this move for the foreseeable future. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment: Leave how the title is and don't change it, or change it to "GamerGate". I'm only speaking for the title, btw. Tonkarooson • (📭|Edits). 05:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Categories: