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== ] ==


== Holowka allegations ==
In its entirety:

{{ping|HC7}} Over at ], ] discussion regarding whether or not the allegations are even warranted for Holowka's page. It seems like this is really stretching for notability. Also: I have no idea what his death has to do with Quinn, but the placement in the article seems to imply some kind of connection between the accusation and the death, which is utterly unsupported by reliable sources. ]<sup> ]</sup> 21:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
:I say to wait until the Holowka issue is resolved at ] before we even ''start'' talking about this.--] (]) 23:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
:I've just reverted an addition of this topic, on the basis that: a) the inclusion in the lead section was UNDUE; b) particularly as it focused on recent events (WP:RECENTISM), and; c) it will need a better source than that which was provided, an op-ed in RT. - ] <sup>]</sup> 09:52, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
::Agree. I still haven't seen high quality sources saying the death was a suicide, and the most recent coverage doesn't mention Quinn. I posted this elsewhere, but for covering suicide recommend against this kind of oversimplification of the reasons for a persons death. If sources are saying "Quinn made him kill himself" they're probably not reliable. ]<sup> ]</sup> 13:49, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Given the recent tragic event involving Alec on August 31, 2019, will we be permitted to cover events related to that event--as reported by the news media in relation to Zoe--on Zoe's page, as we would if this page belonged to someone other than Zoe?

Thank you.
-] (]) 23:36, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
:Yes, of course, if the coverage is sourced reliably and it falls into due weight. If she's barely mentioned, then probably not. At most, this might support a sentence somewhere, but nothing more than that as his death is not, you know, about Zoe.--] (]) 23:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
:Certainly no conspiracy theories.--] (]) 23:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
:Obviously we can add information that information that is in accordance of Misplaced Pages's core policies. But I get the sense from your other edits here that you might not have a clear grasp of those policies. If your question is "has the status quo on Misplaced Pages shifted in such a way that might allow me to add some reddit nonsense to the entry?" the answer is: "absolutely not, you are wasting your time here and you should find something else to edit." ]<sup> ]</sup> 00:47, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

* ] Archived: ] <span style="background:#F3F3F3; padding:3px 9px 4px">]</span> 23:41, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

::So, if anyone wants to put in the work to add this, here's the source links from Alec's article:
https://gamasutra.com/view/news/349504/New_allegations_of_sexual_assault_surface_against_established_game_devs.php
https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/29/20835673/night-in-the-woods-alec-holowka-abuse-zoe-quinn
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/349594/Night_in_the_Woods_devs_cut_ties_with_Alec_Holowka_after_abuse_allegations.php
https://kotaku.com/night-in-the-woods-designer-alec-holowka-dies-1837783073
https://www.wired.com/story/videogames-industry-metoo-moment-male-fragility/
https://www.pcgamer.com/night-in-the-woods-developer-alec-holowka-has-died/
https://nordic.ign.com/night-in-the-woods/28817/news/night-in-the-woods-developer-accused-of-sexual-assault-dies

This article has the appearance of being a bit of a PoV battleground though. I'll beg off editing main here, please. ] (]) 06:16, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Ngl, i have been watching this article for around a year now, and it definetly seems more than necessary to put in Alec allegations or some sort of news about that. It's on his page, why cant it be on hers? --] (]) 04:54, 22 September 2020 (UTC)


I agree, I think it was newsworthy and covered in significant media - her role in the Me Too movement is significant. That said, this article is a sensitive one, and I'm not the most brushed up on living persons articles, much less semi-protected ones. What work would need to be done to update this article with a section describing the allegation, the corroboration, the unfortunate suicide, and the quote that Holowka "wished Zoe well" ? --] (]) 00:18, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
<blockquote>Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. When deciding whether to include a name, its publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than the brief appearance of names in news stories. Consider whether the inclusion of names of living private individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value.
:A reliable source that writes about this in a way that indicates it's ] for her article. Good luck finding one, though, because it's not really due.--] (]) 00:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
::Alright, if that's the case, it doesn't seem like it's worth the effort for the (marginal) benefit it would bring this article. It is certainly an interesting detail, and a story that seems important to the overall Me Too movement though. Also, I took a look and you're right, there weren't many independent, established sources reporting on it. This was perhaps the best source: https://www.salon.com/2019/08/28/gamergate-2-0-zoe-quinn-accuses-game-developer-alec-holowka-of-abuse/ --] (]) 00:13, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
:::I see ] removed the part about Alec Holowka's suicide with a rather lazy "per the talk page" comment but the recent consensus here seems to be that it SHOULD be included, which I agree with. I think the fact that the Wired called this whole thing "the #metoo moment of the video gaming industry" (not exact quote) makes it obviously notable to include in her article, same with the Salon article posted by ]above. Also I would like to address a comment from 2019 I saw above: it's true that most articles on Holowka's death might not mention Zoe Quinn, but they all mention the accusations, and they do in general single out the specific ones from Quinn, for example the BBC says he was accused by "a female games designer" (not several) ().] (]) 04:58, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
::::After reading through these discussions again—here and at ]—I'm seeing an agreement among experienced editors that a mention in this article is ]. That's really not going to change unless (a) there are new reliable sources published later on, or (b) the existing reliable sources get updated. I also don't see any recent consensus here, only editors bringing up the same articles from 2019, which isn't going to shift that weight. ] (]) 13:19, 19 July 2021 (UTC)


== Other projects ==
The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. The names of any immediate, ex, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject. However, names of family members who are not also notable public figures must be removed from an article if they are not properly sourced.</blockquote>


The mention of the Project Tingle story seems oddly vague - 'Quinn was reported to be working with erotica author Chuck Tingle.' The Kickstarter strikes me as more direct source to say something more like 'Quinn launched a Kickstarter named 'Kickstarted in the Butt' with erotica author Chuck Tingle.' Any thoughts? I can't see any reason to call the Kickstarter an unreliable source. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Which part of this policy calls for deleting the name of the living person who set this kerfuffle in motion?


== Pronouns ==
His name hasn't been intentionally concealed. His name appears in The Globe and Mail. He's certainly "directly involved in the article's topic" and his name's absence deprives the article of necessary context. I'm aware of norms that argue for the omission of names of alleged victims of sexual assault, and they might well be coextensive with ]. But the names of alleged perpetrators of such harassment? Confirmed in The Globe and Mail? Really? ] (]) 19:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


It appears that Zoe Quinn now uses she and they pronouns, rather than just they/them. As proof, I present her . She clearly states "she/they" there (note, not "they/she" as some do). Both and recent article use she and her, and those seem to be the only recent articles that talk about Quinn. Given that use of she and her have more support in the most recent RS, are of at least equal status with they/them according to her profile, and are easier to read, especially for non-native speakers, the article should use those.
:He intentionally concealed his name when he posted. Removing the name doesn't change the context. His name only appears as brief mentions in blogs and news media.] (]) 19:59, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
:: {{tq|He's certainly "directly involved in the article's topic" and his name's absence deprives the article of necessary context.}} Of what context? All the relevant context is that he was Zoe Quinn's boyfriend. Also, we concealed Zoe Quinn's real name, because it appeared in few to no RS so it wasn't encylopedic to state, and given that she used a fake name anywho, we should respect that. We should also err on the side of caution on including real people's names. I have not seen his name plastered in article titles, only revealing his connection as her 'ex boyfriend' and that's all the relevant context that is needed. The specific bit you're looking for in BLPNAME is {{tq|Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it...}} We should keep it omitted due to privacy concerns for the individual at hand. ] (]) 20:06, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
:::I disagree, but it seems consensus is in the other direction. So be it.
:::You may have noticed, I redacted it above on the talk page, too.
:::Now, what on earth is wrong with this direct quotation, attributed to the Guardian "According to ], Quinn has "had to pack up and move in with friends, after online campaign of hatred against her." It's a reliable source and it's not an opinion piece. ] (]) 20:23, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
::::IT's of no encyclopaedic value. ] states {{TQ|Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject.}} It may be worthwhile in an article called ] but it's not revelant to a disinterested article about ].] (]) 20:29, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
:::::I'm beginning to understand why newbies are feeling ] here. I'm feeling bitten and I'm no newby. There's a pervasive sense ] in the hair-trigger edits going on around here and, believe it or not, I'm usually a BLP warrior on the exclusionary side of the debate. That a major newspaper has reported that the subject of a BLP has felt the need to move because of harassment is not gossip. It's a significant, factual development that would figure in any biography, wiki or published on old style paper. ] (]) 20:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
::::: SPACKlick, I agree with you on the name, it should be omitted, but I'm not seeing the proof that omitting the mention that she was driven from her home in a section entitled 'harassment' would be beneficial. ] (]) 20:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
::::::Sorry if we've been a little zealous David in DC. WRT to the name, it simply violates BLP. WRT to the Guardian quote, I'm not convinced on the house move, but after you ] added it, I reverted it and now we discuss it. This is how editing is meant to work. I've queried whether it's relevant to a disinterested article on the subject. What does it add for the reader?] (]) 20:54, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
::::::The real issue here is that the whole "harassment" section is probably going to need to become a "controversy" section. It really depends on how long this section is going to be; ] has risen to the point of notability and actually has more articles than Zoe Quinn harassment does at this point (at least on Google News, though lord knows that's a rough estimate at best, as a lot of stuff involved in this aren't really great sources; there are lots of RSs, but a lot of sources are biased or have conflicts of interest, which is making sourcing things a lot more dicey). Also, a lot of the heat she has drawn is less harassment and more criticism, which complicates matters further, and even worse are the accusations that she is playing the victim (and there are numerous accusations of exactly this, re: the harassment and claims of misogyny). Her leaving her home is ''potentially'' noteworthy, but it depends on how ''much'' we end up including in the article. ] (]) 09:20, 6 September 2014 (UTC)


Normally IPs are quick to let us know when these things change, but that may not have happened this time since even the talk page is semiprotected. Of course, I understand why that was done. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 03:48, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
:The boyfriend's name seems important to try to understand this story. It ''does'' appear in several news sources, for example (I ''hope'' that merely citing reliable sources on a discussion page isn't enough to get me revdelled, but nowadays, who knows?). The most important reason to include it is to facilitate further research by readers and editors. I should explain by that, what I mean is, there are two kinds of media: one, like The Associated Press, whose purpose in life is to waste your time giving you bland generalizations loaded down with their particular spin that you can't follow up on to understand, and the other, like the sources I cite here, which make a real effort to give you the actual lay of the land. Some elites on Misplaced Pages recently seem to have sworn allegiance to the former media approach, but many of us readers do not agree. And having the name to search with is one of the quickest ways there is to pick out the real articles from the time-wasters to try to figure out what (if anything) is at the bottom of all this. It may seem cruel to associate the boyfriend's name with all this, but it's just as "cruel" to associate Quinn; bottom line though is that when something becomes big news there's no holding it back and it's not our job to try. And any protection as a "family member" would be misplaced; he is an independent participant in the story.


:It looks like they are using they/them consistently now, at least as far as I can tell: , , . (Facebook page and blog are unavailable. No obvious pronouns on Patreon).
:Where we ''can'' be extra sensitive by BLP is to actually read that primary source of his cited in the Globe and Mail (I'm not even going to dare to try right now, but it does belong as a source in the article). In it, he has an update where he asks people not to harass Quinn, and makes other conciliatory statements, and mentioning these surely would not be a bad thing for either of the original parties to this pea-under-the-mattresses. I think that both parties, but especially Quinn, being the subject of the article, deserve to be heard in their own words - I always believe in letting the subject have his/her say. One of her primary references is .
:It would be interesting to know why they changed and then changed back but I can't see anything obvious when I search Google News and, of course, they are under absolutely no obligation to explain themself if they don't want to. If they were experimenting to see which pronouns yielded the least trouble then it might make good sense not to say anything.
:I think we can and should change the article back to using they/them pronouns. I'll give that a go. --] (]) 18:36, 10 January 2022 (UTC)


:Annoying to see that it looks like changes in Twitter prevent Archive.org from successfully archiving users' profile pages like it used to. --] (]) 19:05, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
:I'll add that I still have ''no idea'' how obscure blog posts ever got turned into a cause for harassment or news coverage; the incomprehensibility of it is precisely why I want Misplaced Pages to cover it in detail. We don't understand how cyberbullying or popularity on the Web really works, I think, and this is data. We need freedom to navigate -- ''beginning'' with the most basic brass tacks like naming the parties -- in order to hope to do any service to that here. ] (]) 03:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
::I disengaged for a while. Life is too short. I'm gratified to see that, in my absence, the consensus has shifted and that the edit I advocated in this thread has been reinserted. Thank you. ] (]) 18:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC) :: {{yo|DanielRigal}} Archive.today is good at Twitter threads. Or maybe try archiving the Nitter page of the Twitter profile, that should work across all archives. ] (]) 17:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
:: I've also been disengaged and find the re-insert of the name a problem still. WNT you say {{TQ|The boyfriend's name seems important to try to understand this story.}} I have one question to counter that. If instead of the actual name it said "David Spindler" what difference would that make to the reader?
:: The ex boyfriend is not a public figure. There is no mention of him on the internet at all which isn't linked to the gamergate controversy, he's not a public figure so naming him rather than merely referring to him as "the ex boyfriend" and similar is a direct violation of the sections of WP:BLP quoted above.
:::Yes, he is a (limited) public figure at this point and no, it's not a violation of BLP. He has been named and his actions have been widely discussed in mainstream reliable sources as reveals — there are literally hundreds of reliably-sourced news articles discussing Gjoni's role in launching this whole debacle. He has voluntarily given on the subject. Given the significance of the allegations and insinuations in Quinn's life, it would be irresponsible for us to republish Gjoni's allegations in an essentially-anonymous fashion. It's a simple matter of source accountability. Eron Gjoni voluntarily and widely publicly posted a name-and-shame drama blog about his ex-lover — he can hardly claim any expectation of privacy when the consequences of his actions become international news.
:::I agree that we should not delve extensively into his life, but a brief mention of the name of the person who touched off the firestorm which engulfed Zoe Quinn's life is entirely encyclopedic. ] (]) 09:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Many apologies, i've discovered from your link the reason I haven't been finding sources is my notes have his surname spelt wrong. There's much more coverage out there than I had found. In the words of our law courts, objection withdrawn. That being said, the blog was published anonymously so there was an expectation of some level of privacy. It is the wide and particularly voluntary publication of his name that justifies this inclusion.] (]) 10:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::Yes, I fully agree that if they had not become a key part of a several-months-running international news story, neither his name nor his allegations would be encyclopedic. Unfortunately for all involved, we're now kinda stuck. Thanks for taking a second look. ] (]) 10:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


The article text now refers to "Quinn" mostly by last name, and appears to avoid using gendered pronouns wherever possible, excepting double-quoted sourced quotations, which are appropriately left unaltered. Accordingly, I've added the {{tl|Article pronouns}} template to the header section of this Talk page, echoing the current usage. If the article pronoun usage changes, the template should be changed to reflect it. (After this discussion section is archived, the {{para|source}} param should be updated to point to it.) Thanks, ] (]) 21:18, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
==FYCs==
:{{re|Mathglot}} Hmm, meanwhile I've just gone and switched everything over to they/them at '']''. Is there reason to think Quinn has a problem with they/them? https://unburntwitch.com/about uses it. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she&#124;they&#124;xe)</span> 23:08, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Having read far more than I would like about the whole imbroglio it seems surprising that this article does not cover the dispute with and allegations by the FYCs.
:: I don't have an opinion about that, and merely added the template to reflect current usage; i.e., it's descriptive, not prescriptive. In that way, it's like template {{tl|Use British English}} or any of several similar templates which simply describe which of several style options is currently in use, so that other users may follow that style option to maintain consistency. If the article switches to they/them, then the template will follow suit. That said, a single discussion or usage style should govern pronouns for Quinn at both articles (or at any other article which talks about them), so if the two are different, that should be addressed. This being the Quinn article, it should be addressed here, or just make a ] and do it if you think it's not controversial, and hopefully it will stick. ] (]) 00:38, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
:::{{re|Mathglot}} Well, I think you and I might be seeing this article different ways. To me this reads as already on ''they/them''. There's a ''they/them'' footnote, and ''they/them'' pronouns are used about once every paragraph on average. If "Quinn" is used a lot, I think it's just because of cases where "they" would be ambiguous (e.g. {{tq|In 2014, {{xt|Quinn}} intended to be part of the canceled ] reality television show codenamed "Game_Jam"}}, where {{!xt|they}} would be ambiguous with {{tq|experienced game developers and novice developers}} in the previous sentence). <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she&#124;they&#124;xe)</span> 12:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
:::: Oh, I see; changed it to ''they/them'' above. Ideally, the {{para|source}} param should be adjusted to point to something that records her choice. ] (]) 19:06, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::''non-cisgender''? Is that actually a thing? I'm usually quite up-to-date with developments in gender politics, but it just reads like an overly niminy-piminy hairsplitting category, almost parodistic of trans-conscious vocabulary.
:::::] (]) 12:29, 18 October 2023 (UTC)


== Please add ==
All&nbsp;the&nbsp;best: '']&nbsp;]'',&nbsp;<small>11:59,&nbsp;18&nbsp;October&nbsp;2014&nbsp;(UTC).</small><br />


birthname {{redacted}}, source: {{redacted}} or open the page, that I can put in the content myself. Thx ] (]) 20:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
==Games==
It would be good to include some of the video games Quinn has developed. All&nbsp;the&nbsp;best: '']&nbsp;]'',&nbsp;<small>01:10,&nbsp;12&nbsp;November&nbsp;2014&nbsp;(UTC).</small><br />


:Content on IMDB is user-generated, so it's not a reliable source. (See ].) This has been discussed plenty of times. I don't think anyone has found reliable sources giving that name, let alone saying it's a birth name. ] (]) 20:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
==Gamergate==
::-> https://de.scribd.com/doc/300019044/Van-Valkerburg-v-Gjoni-Eugene-Volokh-Letter-in-Support-of-Direct-Appellate-Review ] (]) 23:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
We now have a pretty extensive article on Gamergate. I've added a "main" template and trimmed back the Gamergate section. It could probably benefit from even heavier trimming. --] 03:19, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
::-> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/03/18/appellate-argument-today-as-to-the-order-that-eron-gjoni-not-post-any-further-information-about-zoe-quinn/ ] (]) 23:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
:Obviously, I'm not going to be able to do much about this pretty soon, but this is literally the most noteworthy thing that has happened involving Zoe Quinn and two paragraphs seems like the minimum amount necessary. Not to mention that if you are going to mention GamerGate and harassment then you should definitely give people some inkling in this article what it is about. The current highly sanitized version of this is bad enough, but making it to where it is basically saying "Some naughty people were really mean to Zoe. You should feel really sorry for her. It is so hard to be a woman," is just making a mockery of Misplaced Pages.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 08:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
:::Public records like court documents can't be used for claims about living persons. See ].
:: The extensive ] article goes into detail about the series of false and sometimes maliciously false accusations that formed the basis for the character assassination and other attacks against Quinn and others. The detail you've added is redundant and, for a biography, rather too much. To be sure, it's a major event, but Quinn was just part of it and not an instigator at that. The malicious attacks are on Gamergate, not those targeted. That's why I've now removed that large addition. --] 16:41, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
:::The Volokh Conspiracy is , which can't be used for claims about living persons other than the author. See ] and ].
:::It's a summary of ], of course it's redundant. You've trimmed away so much detail, however, that it barely says anything and certainly doesn't provide an accurate summary. If you're worried about repeating attacks against Quinn here (perfectly reasonable), it shouldn't be too difficult to remove that information without gutting the rest of the paragraph. Such as by replacing the second sentence of the longer version with something like: {{tq|i=y|Shortly after the game was released in August 2014,<!--<ref name="AusGamers" />--> Eron Gjoni, Quinn's ex-boyfriend, published a blog post attacking Quinn.}} ]] 17:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
:::I suggest reading through the archives because this has been discussed many, many times. ] (]) 23:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
:::: To reiterate, my main concern here is that the sheer volume of detail is inappropriate for such a slight biography. There's a point at which a biography becomes a kind of ], and this sheer volume of words seems to be in effect an attempt to fork party of the Gamergate controversy article here. --] 18:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

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Q1: I found a blog entry, forum thread or YouTube video that presents evidence about Zoë Quinn's alleged actions related to the controversy from August 2014. A1: That sort of source does not comply with Misplaced Pages's standards for reliable sources. Misplaced Pages considers them to be 'self-published', which means that they do not meet the standards for sources that introduce contentious material into a biography of a living person. If we were to use these sources to add material to articles, all sorts of gossip, slander and libelous material would find its way in, which would tarnish the quality of Misplaced Pages's information as well as potentially open up Misplaced Pages to legal action. For further information, please read the guidelines for sources in biographies of living people. Q2: Why is Misplaced Pages censoring certain information? A2: Misplaced Pages is not censored, however, it relies solely on information published in reliable sources, especially for biographies of living people, rather than the "truth" or "common knowledge". Without a legitimate, published source to cite information from, potentially libelous statements cannot be added to a biographical article, and users who persist in doing so may be blocked from editing. Q3: Why does Misplaced Pages have an article on Zoë Quinn, and why would it not be deleted? A3: In order for subjects to have an article on Misplaced Pages, they have to fulfil certain notability guidelines. In the past, a consensus of editors has found that Zoë Quinn meets these guidelines. If you disagree, you are welcome to submit the article to an "Articles for deletion" (AfD) discussion, but previous AfD discussions have resulted in the article being kept. Simply bringing up concerns on this talk page would be pointless, as articles are not deleted based on discussion on individual article talk pages.

Holowka allegations

@HC7: Over at WP:BLPN, there's an ongoing discussion regarding whether or not the allegations are even warranted for Holowka's page. It seems like this is really stretching for notability. Also: I have no idea what his death has to do with Quinn, but the placement in the article seems to imply some kind of connection between the accusation and the death, which is utterly unsupported by reliable sources. Nblund 21:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I say to wait until the Holowka issue is resolved at WP:BLPN before we even start talking about this.--Jorm (talk) 23:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
I've just reverted an addition of this topic, on the basis that: a) the inclusion in the lead section was UNDUE; b) particularly as it focused on recent events (WP:RECENTISM), and; c) it will need a better source than that which was provided, an op-ed in RT. - Ryk72 09:52, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
Agree. I still haven't seen high quality sources saying the death was a suicide, and the most recent coverage from the BBC doesn't mention Quinn. I posted this elsewhere, but media guidelines for covering suicide recommend against this kind of oversimplification of the reasons for a persons death. If sources are saying "Quinn made him kill himself" they're probably not reliable. Nblund 13:49, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Given the recent tragic event involving Alec on August 31, 2019, will we be permitted to cover events related to that event--as reported by the news media in relation to Zoe--on Zoe's page, as we would if this page belonged to someone other than Zoe?

Thank you. -Phone Charger (talk) 23:36, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course, if the coverage is sourced reliably and it falls into due weight. If she's barely mentioned, then probably not. At most, this might support a sentence somewhere, but nothing more than that as his death is not, you know, about Zoe.--Jorm (talk) 23:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Certainly no conspiracy theories.--Jorm (talk) 23:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Obviously we can add information that information that is in accordance of Misplaced Pages's core policies. But I get the sense from your other edits here that you might not have a clear grasp of those policies. If your question is "has the status quo on Misplaced Pages shifted in such a way that might allow me to add some reddit nonsense to the entry?" the answer is: "absolutely not, you are wasting your time here and you should find something else to edit." Nblund 00:47, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
So, if anyone wants to put in the work to add this, here's the source links from Alec's article:

https://gamasutra.com/view/news/349504/New_allegations_of_sexual_assault_surface_against_established_game_devs.php https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/29/20835673/night-in-the-woods-alec-holowka-abuse-zoe-quinn https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/349594/Night_in_the_Woods_devs_cut_ties_with_Alec_Holowka_after_abuse_allegations.php https://kotaku.com/night-in-the-woods-designer-alec-holowka-dies-1837783073 https://www.wired.com/story/videogames-industry-metoo-moment-male-fragility/ https://www.pcgamer.com/night-in-the-woods-developer-alec-holowka-has-died/ https://nordic.ign.com/night-in-the-woods/28817/news/night-in-the-woods-developer-accused-of-sexual-assault-dies

This article has the appearance of being a bit of a PoV battleground though. I'll beg off editing main here, please. Bahb the Illuminated (talk) 06:16, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Ngl, i have been watching this article for around a year now, and it definetly seems more than necessary to put in Alec allegations or some sort of news about that. It's on his page, why cant it be on hers? --Whatshisnamee (talk) 04:54, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree, I think it was newsworthy and covered in significant media - her role in the Me Too movement is significant. That said, this article is a sensitive one, and I'm not the most brushed up on living persons articles, much less semi-protected ones. What work would need to be done to update this article with a section describing the allegation, the corroboration, the unfortunate suicide, and the quote that Holowka "wished Zoe well" ? --Semitones (talk) 00:18, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

A reliable source that writes about this in a way that indicates it's WP:DUE for her article. Good luck finding one, though, because it's not really due.--Jorm (talk) 00:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Alright, if that's the case, it doesn't seem like it's worth the effort for the (marginal) benefit it would bring this article. It is certainly an interesting detail, and a story that seems important to the overall Me Too movement though. Also, I took a look and you're right, there weren't many independent, established sources reporting on it. This was perhaps the best source: https://www.salon.com/2019/08/28/gamergate-2-0-zoe-quinn-accuses-game-developer-alec-holowka-of-abuse/ --Semitones (talk) 00:13, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
I see User:Woodroar removed the part about Alec Holowka's suicide with a rather lazy "per the talk page" comment but the recent consensus here seems to be that it SHOULD be included, which I agree with. I think the fact that the Wired called this whole thing "the #metoo moment of the video gaming industry" (not exact quote) makes it obviously notable to include in her article, same with the Salon article posted by User:Semitonesabove. Also I would like to address a comment from 2019 I saw above: it's true that most articles on Holowka's death might not mention Zoe Quinn, but they all mention the accusations, and they do in general single out the specific ones from Quinn, for example the BBC says he was accused by "a female games designer" (not several) ().Thisisarealusername (talk) 04:58, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
After reading through these discussions again—here and at BLPN—I'm seeing an agreement among experienced editors that a mention in this article is UNDUE. That's really not going to change unless (a) there are new reliable sources published later on, or (b) the existing reliable sources get updated. I also don't see any recent consensus here, only editors bringing up the same articles from 2019, which isn't going to shift that weight. Woodroar (talk) 13:19, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Other projects

The mention of the Project Tingle story seems oddly vague - 'Quinn was reported to be working with erotica author Chuck Tingle.' The Kickstarter strikes me as more direct source to say something more like 'Quinn launched a Kickstarter named 'Kickstarted in the Butt' with erotica author Chuck Tingle.' Any thoughts? I can't see any reason to call the Kickstarter an unreliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Random name (talk • contribs) 15:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Pronouns

It appears that Zoe Quinn now uses she and they pronouns, rather than just they/them. As proof, I present her verified Twitter account. She clearly states "she/they" there (note, not "they/she" as some do). Both this and this recent article use she and her, and those seem to be the only recent articles that talk about Quinn. Given that use of she and her have more support in the most recent RS, are of at least equal status with they/them according to her profile, and are easier to read, especially for non-native speakers, the article should use those.

Normally IPs are quick to let us know when these things change, but that may not have happened this time since even the talk page is semiprotected. Of course, I understand why that was done. Crossroads 03:48, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

It looks like they are using they/them consistently now, at least as far as I can tell: Twitter, Instagram, personal website. (Facebook page and blog are unavailable. No obvious pronouns on Patreon).
It would be interesting to know why they changed and then changed back but I can't see anything obvious when I search Google News and, of course, they are under absolutely no obligation to explain themself if they don't want to. If they were experimenting to see which pronouns yielded the least trouble then it might make good sense not to say anything.
I think we can and should change the article back to using they/them pronouns. I'll give that a go. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:36, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Annoying to see that it looks like changes in Twitter prevent Archive.org from successfully archiving users' profile pages like it used to. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:05, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
@DanielRigal: Archive.today is good at Twitter threads. Or maybe try archiving the Nitter page of the Twitter profile, that should work across all archives. Rlink2 (talk) 17:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

The article text now refers to "Quinn" mostly by last name, and appears to avoid using gendered pronouns wherever possible, excepting double-quoted sourced quotations, which are appropriately left unaltered. Accordingly, I've added the {{Article pronouns}} template to the header section of this Talk page, echoing the current usage. If the article pronoun usage changes, the template should be changed to reflect it. (After this discussion section is archived, the |source= param should be updated to point to it.) Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 21:18, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Hmm, meanwhile I've just gone and switched everything over to they/them at Gamergate (harassment campaign). Is there reason to think Quinn has a problem with they/them? https://unburntwitch.com/about uses it. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 23:08, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
I don't have an opinion about that, and merely added the template to reflect current usage; i.e., it's descriptive, not prescriptive. In that way, it's like template {{Use British English}} or any of several similar templates which simply describe which of several style options is currently in use, so that other users may follow that style option to maintain consistency. If the article switches to they/them, then the template will follow suit. That said, a single discussion or usage style should govern pronouns for Quinn at both articles (or at any other article which talks about them), so if the two are different, that should be addressed. This being the Quinn article, it should be addressed here, or just make a bold change and do it if you think it's not controversial, and hopefully it will stick. Mathglot (talk) 00:38, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
@Mathglot: Well, I think you and I might be seeing this article different ways. To me this reads as already on they/them. There's a they/them footnote, and they/them pronouns are used about once every paragraph on average. If "Quinn" is used a lot, I think it's just because of cases where "they" would be ambiguous (e.g. In 2014, Quinn intended to be part of the canceled YouTube reality television show codenamed "Game_Jam", where they would be ambiguous with experienced game developers and novice developers in the previous sentence). -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 12:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Oh, I see; changed it to they/them above. Ideally, the |source= param should be adjusted to point to something that records her choice. Mathglot (talk) 19:06, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
non-cisgender? Is that actually a thing? I'm usually quite up-to-date with developments in gender politics, but it just reads like an overly niminy-piminy hairsplitting category, almost parodistic of trans-conscious vocabulary.
Nuttyskin (talk) 12:29, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Please add

birthname (Redacted), source: (Redacted) or open the page, that I can put in the content myself. Thx Jucos (talk) 20:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Content on IMDB is user-generated, so it's not a reliable source. (See WP:IMDB.) This has been discussed plenty of times. I don't think anyone has found reliable sources giving that name, let alone saying it's a birth name. Woodroar (talk) 20:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
-> https://de.scribd.com/doc/300019044/Van-Valkerburg-v-Gjoni-Eugene-Volokh-Letter-in-Support-of-Direct-Appellate-Review Jucos (talk) 23:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
-> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/03/18/appellate-argument-today-as-to-the-order-that-eron-gjoni-not-post-any-further-information-about-zoe-quinn/ Jucos (talk) 23:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Public records like court documents can't be used for claims about living persons. See WP:BLPPRIMARY.
The Volokh Conspiracy is effectively a self-published source, which can't be used for claims about living persons other than the author. See WP:BLPSPS and WP:ABOUTSELF.
I suggest reading through the archives because this has been discussed many, many times. Woodroar (talk) 23:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
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