Talk:Asperger syndrome: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 15:34, 18 July 2006 editSandyGeorgia (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, Mass message senders, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors279,080 edits →Revert archive: consensus← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 13:39, 9 January 2025 edit undoDoniago (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers113,456 editsm Reverted edits by 87.38.237.22 (talk) to last version by DreamRimmer Alt rvvTag: Rollback
Line 1:		Line 1:
	{{~~featured~~}}		{{Talk header}}
			{{American English}}
	{{mainpage date\|April 17\|2004}}
			{{Article history
	{{Wikipedians\|Aspergian Wikipedians}}
			\|action1=FAC
	{{FAR}}
			\|action1date=2004-04-10, 17:06:39
			\|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Asperger's syndrome
			\|action1result=promoted
			\|action1oldid=3178454

			\|action2=FARC
	{\| class="infobox" width="315px"
			\|action2date=September 5, 2005
	\|-
			\|action2link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Asperger syndrome/archive1
	! align="center" \| ]<br />]
			\|action2result=kept
	----
			\|action2oldid=22581533
	\|-
	\|
	# ]
	# ]
	# ]
	# ]
	# ]
	# ] - ]
	# ] - still very important and vital!
	\|}

			\|action3=FAR
			\|action3date=August 1, 2006
			\|action3link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Asperger syndrome/archive2
			\|action3result=kept
			\|action3oldid=66837523

			\|action4=FAR
	== Splitting the article ==
			\|action4date=15:01, 24 September 2007
			\|action4link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Asperger syndrome/archive3
			\|action4result=kept
			\|action4oldid=159918325

			\|action5 = FAR
	:::::Whatever you all decide, but in my mind, the hardest obstacle to overcome right now is 2b) comprehensive. In the minds of outside reviewers, who may vote, 2d) POV and 2e) stability may take on greater importance, so that's in Rdos' court, since I think he is the only one contributing to those concerns on FAR.
			\|action5date = 2020-04-25
			\|action5link = Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Asperger syndrome/archive4
			\|action5result = demoted
			\|action5oldid = 951904726

			\|currentstatus=FFA
	:::::On a technical note, and I really don't know the answer to this, I don't think you can change the name of the article and retain the featured status? I really don't know: I've not seen it done before, since doing that inherently implies the article is not 2e) stable. One way you may get around that (and I'm really not sure on this either), is to include something like a dbalink at the top (disambiguation) which says, this article discusses the clinical view of AS, for <whatever> view, see <name of article> ... ] 13:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
			\|maindate=April 17, 2004
			}}
			{{WikiProject banner shell\|collapsed=yes\|class=B\|vital=yes\|1=
			{{WikiProject Medicine\|importance=High\|neurology=yes\|neurology-imp=High\|genetics=yes\|genetics-imp=High\|selected=yes}}
			{{WikiProject Neuroscience\|importance=High}}
			{{WikiProject Psychology\|importance=High}}
			{{WikiProject Disability}}
			{{WikiProject Autism\|importance=Top}}
			}}
			{{DSM copyright}}
			{{Reliable sources for medical articles}}
			{{User:MiszaBot/config
			\|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}}
			\|maxarchivesize = 250K
			\|counter = 25
			\|algo = old(90d)
			\| minthreadstoarchive = 1
			\| minthreadsleft = 3
			\|archive = Talk:Asperger syndrome/Archive %(counter)d
			}}
			{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn
			\|target=/Archive index
			\|mask=/Archive <#>
			\|leading_zeros=0
			\|indexhere=yes}}
			{{Banner holder \|collapsed=yes\|1=
			{{top 25 report\|December 8, 2013\|May 9 2021}}
			}}
			{{Broken anchors\|links=
			* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Teratogenic agents) is no longer available because it was ] before. <!-- {"title":"Teratogenic agents","appear":{"revid":135538675,"parentid":135512255,"timestamp":"2007-06-03T12:43:49Z","replaced_anchors":{"Teratogenesis and Teratology":"Teratogenesis and teratology","Wilson's 6 Principles":"Wilson's 6 principles","Teratogenic Agents":"Teratogenic agents","Teratogenic Outcomes":"Teratogenic outcomes"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":582749178,"parentid":582748391,"timestamp":"2013-11-22T00:14:29Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} -->
			}}
			{{Old merge
			\| otherpage = Autism
			\| result = not merged
			\| discuss = Talk:Autism#Proposal to merge Asperger syndrome here
			\| URL = https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Autism#Proposal_to_merge_Asperger_syndrome_here&oldid=1231109180
			\| image = <!-- ] -->
			\| date = 8 May 2024
			}}

			== Better discussion why it is contradicting that asperger do not have normal level of empathy ==
	::That shouldn't be a problem...after all, I feel sure you will have a free hand with ] (which is best "clinical" or "medical"?), and with your special interest in FA I feel certain you will not have the slightest difficulty in achieving FA status for it at the first opportunity.

			Aspergers may get lack of empathy, due to conflicts or traume; this is what Hans Asperger and other resarcher observed. People with bad
	::The best way seem to be:
			general cognitive development or bad emotional development through childhood, may have problem processing emotions and thoughts in a proper way; aspergers that do not have emphatic skill, may have been wrongly diagnosed - due to lack of proper general cognitive development. If one look at csikszentmihalyi's flow model, apathy arises when skill level is low; and slides over to anxiety (social anxiety), when challenge becomes bigger. Such anxiety, that is evident through lack of empathy, is a pinpointer to problems related to general cognitive development.
	#create ] using the existing text
	#revert this page to the last featured version
	#delete all none clinical text from the new ] (copy any that seems relevant back here)
	#start reviewing the medical information here for synopsising and seeing what else needs adding. There are SO many other features of AS that need sourcing and adding it's unreal, like "aversion to children" (fact/fiction/both), gender ambiguity (fact/fiction/both). Misconception debunking...

			] (]) 05:26, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
	::That way this article can stand or fall in the current FARC in accord with the wishes of the community (I warn you, it will probably fall, but can always re-submit, but are we really that bothered?) and the ], which is, essentially, a new article, will have a clean sheet upon which I feel certain it's submission will ultimately be accepted.

			:This is contradicted by evidence for what is often known as the ]. Theorisation of that concept and evidence for it have both cast into doubt past evidence of autistic people being low in empathy, by pointing out that what was actually found was autistic people struggling to empathise with allistic (non-autistic) people. There is also evidence that allistic people struggle to empathise with autistic people, but that autistic people empathise well with other autistic people and allistic people empathise well with other allistic people. ] (]) 17:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
	::HOWZAT??--] 13:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			== short description ==
	:::A very good idea. --] 13:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			I don't have a dog in this race. The two most recent short descriptions for this article are:
	:::I couldn't support that, because of concerns about changing the name of a featured article, which has to be comprehensive, stable, and NPOV. That will create an uncomprehensive (leaving out medical fact), unstable (demonstrated by changing name), and POV article (biased by not including medical consensus) ] 13:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
			*Formerly recognized neurodevelopmental condition
			*Formerly recognized subtype of autism; considered milder due to intact intelligence and language
			Shouldn't the short description say what Asperger syndrome {{em\|is}} rather than say what it {{em\|is not}}?

			—] (]) 14:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
	::Nobody plans to leave out medical hypothesis (no such thing a "medical fact" yet on this) far from it, you synopsis the ] article in one plain language section to reference it.

			== Semi-protected edit request: Sukhareva's Syndrome ==
	::The article will initially be reverted to last reviewed article, which is what earned the featured article status currently under discussion in the first place. This is currently as POV as all get out as a generic AS article (but not as a specifically clinical one) ande if it's curerntly stable, then Gallipolli was a picnic on the beach.

			{{Edit semi-protected\|answered=yes}}
	::I will go one further and state that I pledge my support for any section of this article presented for FA status under ] or similar, because I believe it is warranted, but NOT as ](generic), because it isn't.--] 14:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			The statement (under History) "leading some of those diagnosed with Asperger syndrome to instead refer to their condition as 'Sukhareva's Syndrome', in opposition to Hans Asperger's association with Nazism" is unsupported by the reference given, whether with regards to Asperger's alleged association with Nazism, the proposal to use a different name, or the reasons for the proposal. I suggest the entire statement be removed. The preceding statement about Sukhareva is supported by the reference. ] (]) 21:45, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
	::::I do not support the notion that the main article should be a medical article with non-medical daugther articles. There is already a autism community article, which deals with what happens there, but this is separate from providing balance in a featured article which is floating around everywhere on the Internet. I think we should simply keep to the concept that was practised here before, to put controversial topics in daughter articles. That includes causes, therapies, prevalence / epidemy and similar topics. The main featured article should describe what AS is and shouldn't dwelve into controversial research by anybody. This way it can be both featured, balanced and referenced. --] 13:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
			:{{Done}} I verified the request and removed the statement.--] (]) 13:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

			== Uta is NOT "he" but "she" ==
	::Same here, I think ] should be the daughter article, and ] should cover all aspects of the phrase in use, NOT just culture and community.

			Can someone please correct this typo? Thanks! ] (]) 03:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
	::One reason for wanting to do it this way is that people seeking information on Asperger Sydrome most usually need an accessible, readable explaination of what it actually is, not a lot of far less accessible, or relevant (TO THEM) medical information from academic sources, which, of course would have to be linked. --] 13:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
	:::See above: I'm really not sure you can change the name and retain your star: it might be good to work this out with a disambiguation link at the top of the current article. And, what would you DBA to? There's no good article out there: every single autism article I've seen is tagged. ] 13:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
	::::''And, what would you DBA to?'' Obviously, we would have to get to work, either way (they should be fixed up anyhow!). However, I cannot see promoting the clinical side over the cultural dissent or vice versa. It's really two sides of the same coin, if you get my drift and really seems like it should be addressed in completion in the same article. It's cross-relevant. --] 13:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
	:::::Yes, I see the dilemma. I don't know how long FARC will last, and the admin closing it can sometimes be convinced to leave it open if work is ongoing and progress is demonstrable, so I do hope everyone here will put their heads together, come to consensus, and just get it done. I was previously willing to help with the actual editing, but have decided I'd best leave it alone, considering fingers which have been pointed at me :-) ] 13:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
	::::::Regardless of finger-pointing, the medical nature does need pointing out and fewer of "us" have been willing to doggedly drive that issue home as much as it should (it's somewhat unpopular, as if you couldn't have guessed!). However, we really ''should'' find a compromise to complete the integrity (better) of the article/situation :) --] 14:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			:{{Done}}. Thanks for spotting the error. ] (]) 04:06, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
	::::::: I still believe it's possible to do it all in this article: I don't think those arguing POV here have spent enough time in the actual research, to find that it is possible to present all sides of the story in this article, using reliable sources. Some recent examples have been uncovered. It can be done; it just can't be written in a speculative tone ("some say ..." "some argue ... " "some think ..." the "autistic community says" ...) that existed in the previous versions. ] 14:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
			::While it's correct that Uta Frith is a woman, she translated Asperger's paper to English, not her own or Wing's papers. The source given is a digital version of this translation.--] (]) 15:54, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

			== The full spectrum of Asperger syndrome is not included in the diagnostic criteria for Autism spectrum disorder, but is exempted from the diagnostic criteria by a “grandfather clause” ==
	There's another factor you all are overlooking here: ], criteria 3, about headings and conforming to WikiProjects. RN and I re-oriented the structure of the article so that it would be comprehensive. All of this info needs to be in the featured article. If you split out the basics, you're no longer meeting 3) for FA. Cultural aspects is not what was awarded a star: the featured article must be the comprehensive one, with splits to other sections. ] 13:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			Many people used to think that the full spectrum of ] was encompassed by ], and I used to think so too. But I learned something new from the official DSM-5 guide, or from resources such as the American Psychological Association; Committee to Evaluate the Supplemental Security Income Disability Program for Children with Mental Disorders; Board on the Health of Select Populations; Board on Children, Youth, and Families; Institute of Medicine; Division of Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education; and The National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine.The diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorder in DSM-5 and DSM-5-TR are subject to a “],” which is the concept of an exemption from the diagnostic criteria. And the full spectrum of Asperger's Syndrome in DSM-IV is not included in the Autism Spectrum Disorder in DSM-5! However, there was an exemption called the “]” for political and social reasons, as people with Asperger's Syndrome would lose social services if they lost their diagnosis, so the exemption included the full spectrum of Asperger's Syndrome.
	::Even by your own admission this is currently clinical rather than comprehensive, which is why it needs, not "purging" but respectfully moving to a new article with a more appropriate name that neutralises the POV aspect here. I feel sure you will have no problem steering that to FA, but, if you will pardon the pun, the point here is AS, NOT FA.

			First,
	::Let this article here jump off from the last reviewed article and seek to tie together ALL strands of the AS article (and yes, when we all have time I WOULD like to see a "sociological and cultural aspects" article some day) --] 14:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			](2023), Understanding Mental Disorders: '''Your Guide to DSM-5-TR'''®, American Psychiatric Association Publishing, 22-23. https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/book/10.1176/appi.books.9781615375370
	:::''Even by your own admission this is currently clinical rather than comprehensive, which is why it needs, not "purging" but respectfully moving to a new article with a more appropriate name that neutralises the POV aspect here.'' No, I think you can better accomplish it by building on what's here. There is nothing POV about the title: the current title is Asperger syndrome. Changing it to include (clinical) could be viewed as a POV fork, leaving out other aspects. The featured article needs to be comprehensive. And again, if the decision is to lose the star, that's not a problem, it's a choice. I can't "steer" FA: it's a community vote. ] 14:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			"Social (Pragmatic) Communication Disorder
	:Why change it's name? By purging speculative, biased sections and providing summaries of daughter articles, we pretty much end up with a good primary article. --] 13:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
	::What you are calling speculative and biased is information that enjoys reliable source references and widespread medical consensus. Rdos, everyone here is working their hardest to get the work done: if you are determined to see the article lose its featured status, should we just get on with it, save everyone the work, and vote to remove? ] 13:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			Social (pragmatic) communication disorder involves problems in the social use of verbal and nonverbal communication. . . .Because of the problems in social communication, this disorder might look like autism spectrum disorder, but those with this disorder do not have fixed interests or repeating behaviors. <u>Those who in the past had a diagnosis of Asperger's disorder or pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified based on their problems in social communication might better fit this new diagnosis of social communication disorder.</u>"
	:::...and that is why it needs moving to ], a context in which, I feel sure, even Rdos would not call it speculative or biased, as he rightly does here. I repeat, the point of this article is AS, NOT FA. --] 14:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			second,
	:::Purging isn't the answer. The medical community has just as valid a viewpoint as the "community" in opposition. --] 13:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			Committee to Evaluate the Supplemental Security Income Disability Program for Children with Mental Disorders; Board on the Health of Select Populations; Board on Children, Youth, and Families; Institute of Medicine; Division of Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education; ]; Boat TF, Wu JT, editors. Mental Disorders and Disabilities Among Low-Income Children. Washington (DC): National Academies Press (US); 2015 Oct 28. 8, Clinical Characteristics of Autism Spectrum Disorder. Available from: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK332891/
	::::I agree. That's why I think your efforts will be better oriented by making this article conform to FA criteria, getting through FARC, and then beginning work on a new article, that will be a disambiguation link at the top. There isn't time to do both at once. Fix this article, then work on the dba link that will eventually be added at the top. ] 13:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			"The diagnosis of ASD is typically made during childhood, based on comprehensive behavioral evaluations by specialists in child psychiatry or psychology or by those in behavioral and developmental pediatrics. ASD was not officially recognized until DSM-III, the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, in 1980 (APA, 1980; Kanner, 1943). The current version of the DSM introduced in 2013, DSM-5, is the first edition of the DSM to use the term “autism spectrum disorder.” This version does not distinguish subtypes such as “autistic disorder” or “Asperger syndrome,” and the diagnostic criteria specified in <u>the DSM-5 for ASD are somewhat narrower than used previously</u>. DSM-5 criteria require that a child has persistent impairment in social communications and interactions across multiple contexts as well as restricted or repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities; that symptoms should present in early childhood and cause significant functional impairments; and that the impairments are not better explained by intellectual disability (APA, 2013).
	:::::OK, lets call it summarizing rather than purging. The current causes section contains detailed information about speculative causes from a medical standpoint. Most of the cites are actually not even causes, but observations done in studies that have not in any way been confirmed to be causative. About the only claim that enjoys some consensus is the genetic nature, although not even that is left undisputed. --] 14:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			<u>DSM-5 introduced major change by eliminating subcategories and providing an overall approach to the diagnosis of ASD (Volkmar et al., 2014a). Concerns about individuals losing services prompted the addition of a “grandfather clause” in DSM-5 granting continued diagnostic assignment to cases previously diagnosed under DSM-IV.</u>"
	:::::: I haven't had time to look at the article this morning, but last time I checked, Causes said nothing (two sentences). All of your objections can be addressed in Causes: you don't address Causes by saying nothing, and you can't give equal weight to all possible causes, when there is good evidence (strong evidence) for a genetic underpinning with environmental influences. ] 14:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

	::::::: OK, so let me refresh your memory then. It says "The cause of AS is unknown. Since Asperger's Syndrome was officially defined in the DSM-IV, several possible causes of AS have been investigated by researchers. These possible causes include: genetics, epilepsy, folic acid, a serotonin dysfunction, cerebellar dysfunction, an enlarged amygdala and hippocampus,and other brain problems.". It speculates about epilepsy (a comorbid), folic acid (I have on idea about this cause), serotonin (serotonin is a "status" substance), cerbellar dysfunction (speculative), enlarged brain parts (what is the causative effect?) and various other brain problems, which no doubt have not been proved to be causative either. --] 14:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			third,
	::::::::You're splitting hairs. ''Everything'' is currently speculative about the cause of AS, otherwise, there would be no "The cause of AS is unknown." statement prefacing the intro to the list of currently investigated triggers. If there is substantial proof to the contrary for any of the included, then ''change'' it for the better. If anything, we should possibly include the frequently speculated causes which have been debunked (like MMR shots/Mercury) in a sort of disclaiming function in either the Causes section or something similar, with appropriate references to that effect. --] 14:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			] (2018), APA Handbook of Psychopathology Volume 1: Psychopathology: Understanding, Assessing, and Treating Adult Mental Disorders, American Psychiatric Association Publishing, 44-45. https://www.apa.org/pubs/books/4311535
	:::::::::Just a reminder. It was I that added "The cause of AS is unknown". This was not originally part of the medical list of causes! I'd say it would feel more relevant to add information about MMR and sociological causes of autism than to dwelve into detail about speculative medical causes. --] 14:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

			"What constitutes a mental disorder is not a trivial decision because it can have quite an important impact on significant social and political issues (e.g., see Bayer & Spitzer, 1982, for a discussion of the controversy surrounding the inclusion of homosexuality in previous editions of the diagnostic manual).
	::Back to basics. It seems to me that there is a clinical viewpoint on AS, it exists, right, wrong or various, so as far asd I can see it isn't POV to say that a clinical viewpoint, and clinical research, exists in it's own right?

			<u>For example, proposed for DSM–5 was a revision to the criterion set for autism disorder that arguably increased the threshold for diagnosis, leaving many persons diagnosed with DSM–IV Asperger’s disorder no longer qualifying for the special benefits, services, and support that had been available to them before DSM–5 (Volkmar & McPartland, 2014). The authors of DSM–5 therefore made an essentially sociopolitical decision to allow persons who had been diagnosed with autism using DSM–IV to continue to receive the diagnosis (American Psychiatric Association, 2013, p. 51), even though they had concluded that the DSM–IV threshold was wrong. At some point, this grandfather clause will expire, but presumably, the parents of the children who no longer qualify for special services will not protest in large part because they had never experienced the benefits of receiving the DSM–IV diagnosis</u>."
	::What would be POV is to say whether that clinical viewpoint (or rather, any perspective on it, because some of them conflict too) was right or wrong, or even MORE right or wrong than any other.

			I just joined Misplaced Pages today to make this known, but I can't edit this article due to access restrictions. ] (]) 06:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	::It can be argued that AS is a case similar to deafness, where those affected are largely functional and intelligent people, and where it is almost impossible for those not affected to have any easy understanding of it, or perhaps full understanding at all.

	::Thus there are many more "non-clinical" aspects than clinical ones.

	::Thus it would be POV to suggest that the clinical aspects of AS are predominant over the others in any sense. It would also be POV to exclude the clinical aspects.

	::I think that the most important thing is to present ALL aspects of AS as fairly, accurately and effectively as possible. Until all points of contention and conflicts are resolved it is probably best NOT to have FA status. Who wants FA status for an unbalanced and inaccurate article that nobody is happy with anyway?

	::Perhaps it would be best to have an AS page that synopsies and links all the aspects of AS such as:

	#]
	#]
	#]
	#]
	#]
	#]

	::THEN request FA status --] 15:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::::: Would you all mind holding the discussion until we fix the premature talk page archive? Ongoing discussions should never be archived: I'd like to fix it, if Zeraeph agrees. ] 14:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

	I'll respond after the talk page is restored: it's a mess now (no TOC, formatting destroyed, and current, ongoing discussions archived against Wiki recommendations. Let's restore the talk page, archive closed discussions properly, and then continue conversation. ] 14:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

	==Article and prose size==
	Back with size info: current overall size is 50KB, which is not a problem, so there's no need to even check prose size. No one lately objects to overall size of 50KB, since a well-referenced article will be at least 50KB. Some current FAs have up to 125 overall KB, because of all the references. Prose size looks only at the prose: that is, how much the reader actually has to digest. Since this article is only at 50KB overall (which includes references, templates, pictures, etc), it's content (prose) is undersized relative to many current FAs. The article content should be beefed up. Here is how you calcualte prose size: ] 13:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

	==Revert archive==
	Z, you prematurely archived the talk page, including comments made TODAY, in the midst of a FARC. Ongoing discussions should not be archived (read the archive link above). Not only that, you wiped out the table of contents, and did something to the page formatting. Please fix it, and bring forward current discussions from archive to the talk page. It is never appropriate to archive a current, ongoing discussion that others may not have had a chance to see. Please undo this. ] 14:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

	:S, I archived the page because I genuinely believe discussions should be accessible to the easiest possible participation by all users. This page was so long it was getting hard to submit, particularly at the current rate of comment.

	:I still believe that. So, if you want it done differently, you must do it yourself. --] 14:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

	::I corrected it, and you reverted it. Did you read ], which says, "you should leave current, ongoing discussions on the existing talk page"? You archived comments added in the last hour! I would like to restore the talk page, archiving only the old, closed discussions, and readding your new comment (below). I will do the work, if you agree not to revert it. Let me know. ] 14:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

	Either revert, or do not revert; but either way, holding this minor decision up is wasting valuable discussion time. --] 15:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
	:Well, zereaph hasn't responded, and I can't revert without consensus. If you agree, and give me 20 minutes, I will restore the talk page, archive closed discussions, and bring forward all new comments made since the premature archive. I need consensus to do that, so let me know if you concur, and I'll proceed. ] 15:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

	==RFC==

	I have listed this RFC http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Maths%2C_science%2C_and_technology#Miscellaneous it seems the best, most realistic, and civil solution.

	Here is exactly what I said:

	"This article is now FARC, there seem to be some serious problems with NPOV and consensus to which no immediately satifactory solution is presenting itself. It really needs all the impartial input it can get."

	I'm not sure RFC is the best place to list it, but I am sure the article and possible solutions to it's difficulties, needs impartial input.

	--] 14:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 13:39, 9 January 2025

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Asperger syndrome article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25Auto-archiving period: 3 months

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Asperger syndrome is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 17, 2004.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
April 10, 2004	Featured article candidate	Promoted
September 5, 2005	Featured article review	Kept
August 1, 2006	Featured article review	Kept
September 24, 2007	Featured article review	Kept
April 25, 2020	Featured article review	Demoted
Current status: Former featured article

This

level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Medicine: Genetics / Neurology High‑importance

	Medicine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Medical genetics task force (assessed as High-importance).
	This article is supported by the Neurology task force (assessed as High-importance).
	This article was selected on the Medicine portal as one of Misplaced Pages's best articles related to Medicine.

Neuroscience High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Neuroscience, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Neuroscience on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NeuroscienceWikipedia:WikiProject NeuroscienceTemplate:WikiProject Neuroscienceneuroscience
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Psychology High‑importance

	Psychology portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Psychology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PsychologyWikipedia:WikiProject PsychologyTemplate:WikiProject Psychologypsychology
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Disability

Asperger syndrome is within the scope of WikiProject Disability. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.DisabilityWikipedia:WikiProject DisabilityTemplate:WikiProject DisabilityDisability

Autism Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Autism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of all aspects of autism and autistic culture on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AutismWikipedia:WikiProject AutismTemplate:WikiProject AutismAutism
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

All editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders are copyrighted. Do not post a copy of the official DSM diagnostic criteria in any Misplaced Pages article. Simply reproducing the entire list in the DSM is not fair use and is a violation of the Misplaced Pages:Non-free content criteria legal policy. Instead, describe the criteria in your own words.
See Misplaced Pages:Copyright violations#Parts of article violate copyright for instructions if the criteria have been copied into the article.
Editors may quote a small part of the DSM criteria for a given condition, especially if that quotation is used to discuss the DSM's choice of terminology in that quotation.

Ideal sources for Misplaced Pages's health content are defined in the guideline Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Asperger syndrome.

PubMed provides review articles from the past five years (limit to free review articles)
The TRIP database provides clinical publications about evidence-based medicine.
Other potential sources include: Centre for Reviews and Dissemination and CDC

Other talk page banners

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 2 times. The weeks in which this happened:

Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.

This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

] The anchor (#Teratogenic agents) is no longer available because it was deleted by a user before.

Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors

This article was nominated for merging with Autism on 8 May 2024. The result of the discussion (permanent link) was not merged.

Better discussion why it is contradicting that asperger do not have normal level of empathy

Aspergers may get lack of empathy, due to conflicts or traume; this is what Hans Asperger and other resarcher observed. People with bad general cognitive development or bad emotional development through childhood, may have problem processing emotions and thoughts in a proper way; aspergers that do not have emphatic skill, may have been wrongly diagnosed - due to lack of proper general cognitive development. If one look at csikszentmihalyi's flow model, apathy arises when skill level is low; and slides over to anxiety (social anxiety), when challenge becomes bigger. Such anxiety, that is evident through lack of empathy, is a pinpointer to problems related to general cognitive development.

2001:2020:31D:BB94:50A6:F6AE:3ACF:8F4B (talk) 05:26, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

This is contradicted by evidence for what is often known as the double empathy problem. Theorisation of that concept and evidence for it have both cast into doubt past evidence of autistic people being low in empathy, by pointing out that what was actually found was autistic people struggling to empathise with allistic (non-autistic) people. There is also evidence that allistic people struggle to empathise with autistic people, but that autistic people empathise well with other autistic people and allistic people empathise well with other allistic people. Elcalebo (talk) 17:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

short description

I don't have a dog in this race. The two most recent short descriptions for this article are:

Formerly recognized neurodevelopmental condition
Formerly recognized subtype of autism; considered milder due to intact intelligence and language

Shouldn't the short description say what Asperger syndrome is rather than say what it is not?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request: Sukhareva's Syndrome

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The statement (under History) "leading some of those diagnosed with Asperger syndrome to instead refer to their condition as 'Sukhareva's Syndrome', in opposition to Hans Asperger's association with Nazism" is unsupported by the reference given, whether with regards to Asperger's alleged association with Nazism, the proposal to use a different name, or the reasons for the proposal. I suggest the entire statement be removed. The preceding statement about Sukhareva is supported by the reference. 216.106.104.39 (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Done I verified the request and removed the statement.--TempusTacet (talk) 13:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Uta is NOT "he" but "she"

Can someone please correct this typo? Thanks! 50.4.132.185 (talk) 03:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for spotting the error. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 04:06, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

While it's correct that Uta Frith is a woman, she translated Asperger's paper to English, not her own or Wing's papers. The source given is a digital version of this translation.--TempusTacet (talk) 15:54, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

The full spectrum of Asperger syndrome is not included in the diagnostic criteria for Autism spectrum disorder, but is exempted from the diagnostic criteria by a “grandfather clause”

Many people used to think that the full spectrum of Asperger's Syndrome was encompassed by Autism Spectrum Disorder, and I used to think so too. But I learned something new from the official DSM-5 guide, or from resources such as the American Psychological Association; Committee to Evaluate the Supplemental Security Income Disability Program for Children with Mental Disorders; Board on the Health of Select Populations; Board on Children, Youth, and Families; Institute of Medicine; Division of Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education; and The National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine.The diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorder in DSM-5 and DSM-5-TR are subject to a “grandfather clause,” which is the concept of an exemption from the diagnostic criteria. And the full spectrum of Asperger's Syndrome in DSM-IV is not included in the Autism Spectrum Disorder in DSM-5! However, there was an exemption called the “grandfather clause” for political and social reasons, as people with Asperger's Syndrome would lose social services if they lost their diagnosis, so the exemption included the full spectrum of Asperger's Syndrome.

First,

American Psychiatric Association(2023), Understanding Mental Disorders: Your Guide to DSM-5-TR®, American Psychiatric Association Publishing, 22-23. https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/book/10.1176/appi.books.9781615375370

"Social (Pragmatic) Communication Disorder

Social (pragmatic) communication disorder involves problems in the social use of verbal and nonverbal communication. . . .Because of the problems in social communication, this disorder might look like autism spectrum disorder, but those with this disorder do not have fixed interests or repeating behaviors. Those who in the past had a diagnosis of Asperger's disorder or pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified based on their problems in social communication might better fit this new diagnosis of social communication disorder."

second,

Committee to Evaluate the Supplemental Security Income Disability Program for Children with Mental Disorders; Board on the Health of Select Populations; Board on Children, Youth, and Families; Institute of Medicine; Division of Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education; The National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine; Boat TF, Wu JT, editors. Mental Disorders and Disabilities Among Low-Income Children. Washington (DC): National Academies Press (US); 2015 Oct 28. 8, Clinical Characteristics of Autism Spectrum Disorder. Available from: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK332891/

"The diagnosis of ASD is typically made during childhood, based on comprehensive behavioral evaluations by specialists in child psychiatry or psychology or by those in behavioral and developmental pediatrics. ASD was not officially recognized until DSM-III, the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, in 1980 (APA, 1980; Kanner, 1943). The current version of the DSM introduced in 2013, DSM-5, is the first edition of the DSM to use the term “autism spectrum disorder.” This version does not distinguish subtypes such as “autistic disorder” or “Asperger syndrome,” and the diagnostic criteria specified in the DSM-5 for ASD are somewhat narrower than used previously. DSM-5 criteria require that a child has persistent impairment in social communications and interactions across multiple contexts as well as restricted or repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities; that symptoms should present in early childhood and cause significant functional impairments; and that the impairments are not better explained by intellectual disability (APA, 2013).

DSM-5 introduced major change by eliminating subcategories and providing an overall approach to the diagnosis of ASD (Volkmar et al., 2014a). Concerns about individuals losing services prompted the addition of a “grandfather clause” in DSM-5 granting continued diagnostic assignment to cases previously diagnosed under DSM-IV."

third,

American Psychiatric Association (2018), APA Handbook of Psychopathology Volume 1: Psychopathology: Understanding, Assessing, and Treating Adult Mental Disorders, American Psychiatric Association Publishing, 44-45. https://www.apa.org/pubs/books/4311535

"What constitutes a mental disorder is not a trivial decision because it can have quite an important impact on significant social and political issues (e.g., see Bayer & Spitzer, 1982, for a discussion of the controversy surrounding the inclusion of homosexuality in previous editions of the diagnostic manual).

For example, proposed for DSM–5 was a revision to the criterion set for autism disorder that arguably increased the threshold for diagnosis, leaving many persons diagnosed with DSM–IV Asperger’s disorder no longer qualifying for the special benefits, services, and support that had been available to them before DSM–5 (Volkmar & McPartland, 2014). The authors of DSM–5 therefore made an essentially sociopolitical decision to allow persons who had been diagnosed with autism using DSM–IV to continue to receive the diagnosis (American Psychiatric Association, 2013, p. 51), even though they had concluded that the DSM–IV threshold was wrong. At some point, this grandfather clause will expire, but presumably, the parents of the children who no longer qualify for special services will not protest in large part because they had never experienced the benefits of receiving the DSM–IV diagnosis."

I just joined Misplaced Pages today to make this known, but I can't edit this article due to access restrictions. Autisticattitudes (talk) 06:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Categories: