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== walashma talk ==

runehelmet, you seem to agree here ] that they be called just muslim so stop your flip flopping. ] (]) 04:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
:That was about Abu Bakr, not about the Walashma dynasty. If you just took time to read the given source you would stop humiliating yourself.] (]) 15:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)


::you said THEY were muslim u didnt say he is muslim so make up your mind dont come here with random sources..if walashma was somali im sure the first editor would include that but he didnt..i have done enough research on walashma so i should know they were arab descendants that settled in the shewa region and than later formed a dynasty that spoke semitic..just because they have arab background doesnt make them somali..apparently some users on here dont understand that there are other ethnic groups that trace arab background other than somalis..before i came on these articles here even arabs were painted as somali on articles that you and midday have on watchlist that is not write dont distort history for perhaps chauvinism as you call it. the walasma came from the state of damut as refugees they boasted arab background as this source clearly states and how state of damut was around shewa ] (]) 05:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
:First of all don't lie, I never said ''they'' were muslim. And I don't use ''random''sources. Those sources you call random call the Walashma dynasty Somali-Arab. You never read the source, you never commented on the source, you just did nothing but reverting and pushing your own sources witch is clearly contradicting with the mainstraim academic sources. And even your given sources are contrary to your statement. And you are right they came from Arabia, but interrmarried with the local Somalis and established a dynasty called? The Walashma. And the Walashma were not refugees. They inhabitated Damut and were conquered by the Negus, so they fled to Ifat and founded an other Sultanate. You keep talking about a Semetic language. My friend, I'm talking here about the ethnicity of the Dynasty. Why are you not commenting about the sources I gave? And could you cite the citations in the future instead of linking them, that would be more easy to follow, as nearly all of your links are directing me to a preview of a book. You can't relie on an other editor, as this is an enclyclopedia, it is never finished.
Here are those 'random' sources:] (]) 19:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
:"''Many centuries of trade relation with Arabia began with the establishment of commercial colonies along the coas by the Himmyrati Kingdom and these eventually developed into two small states of Zeila or Adal in the north and Mogadishu in the south, gradually local dynasties of Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somali ruled.''".
"''In due time these converts even established the Muslim sultanates of Ifat, Dawaro, Adal, and dahlak and put pressure on the highland Ethiopian Christians by controlling trade through the main seaports of Suakin, Aydhab, Zeila, and Berbera''"-Encyclopedia of Africa south of the Sahara page 62


==Muslim dynasty==
::your exact quotes "I have read your sources, and I must say that it's conflicting with other academic sources. The best solution in this issue is to drop it down and call it a Muslim ruler, I hope we are agreed that they were Muslims. Regards"...if walasma is somali than why isnt adal and ifat claimed as somali a sultanate since you say they were arab somali or somali arabss..somalis have destroyed many ethnic groups to be the dominant force today including the mayans by the way somalis also say hararis are somali even though they are semitic they claim they were somali that became arab or something like that but thats not how ethnicity works so what is your response to that? did the somalis give up their empire to other ethnic groups later on? or was it always somali even though many ethnic groups were mentioned in the futuh al habasa such as malasay mayans harla and others..we know the truth somalis swallowed up these ethnic groups...and why does my source say walasma was a distinct race and no mention of somali is there? also this source clearly defines ethnicity "Ethnicity itself may be defined by region, "race",religion or culture; characteristically how-ever,ethnicity is defined by language".] (]) 19:31, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
:The Dynasty was multi-ethnic and Omer Walashma was an Arab who came from hijaz. ] (]) 10:55, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
:My response: ]. I'm not representing the Somali people nor going into discussion at such a ridiculous comment "Somalis have destroyed many ethnic groups..". Your credibility is very low. You may think that happended and/or is happening. And Ifat and Adal were ruled by the dynasty(as mentioned in the given citation, read my friend, read), wich was Somali-Arab. You may be proud of your ethnic background, but that must not damage the credibility of this enclyclopedia. I'm not going to discuss this strange and outrageous comment of yours, I will ignore this so we can discuss on a decent way, without insulting other ethnic groups. And why are you involving the Mayans in this discussion? And again you did not commented on my citation. Why are you not doing it? Please in your next comment only response to the given citation, so we will avoid other awkward situations. ] (]) 23:10, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
PS:About the quote;Where do you say I'm saying that the Dynasty is Muslim and not Abu Bakr. Nowhere? I think so. If you read the quote slowly you will see it by your self. ] (]) 23:17, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

::whats my ethnic background? dont redirect your possible personal thoughts and think that i have an agenda on here..your distortion of history for chauvinism as you call it will just make wikipedia less credible when actual encyclopedia's will give facts...how is that an attack on an ethnic group? im stating facts which you obviously is unaware of by the way if your offended by that comment you must have a dog in this fight that might be the reason you go around articles spreading POV and until i came on here you were getting away with it without any objection..its mentioned here clearly "the walasma family belonged simply 'to the same race .. also my source clearly states walasma is a distinct race not somali arabs or whatever.."Ibn Khaldun relates how Damut was attacked and conquered by the Negus of Christian Ethiopia and how a RACE called Walasma lived in it. which then emigrated further east and settled in ifat where it formed another sultanate" .........so there is a conflicting RS its better to leave it as muslim by the way if your accusing me of being a muslim ethnic group that doesnt exist so stop your accusations and there was no such thing as somali arab there is nobody that said that in those days..if a person speaks a specific language only he is characterized as such... you are talking about the modern state of somalia. and its funny you ignored that an ethnicity is by language spoken and went on to discuss my other statements i find that odd ] (]) 10:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
:You called yourself a Harari, mister. And I don't think you have an agenda here but I know it. You are binding the facts to your will giving irrelevant sources, and those sources are even supporting my ''false claims''. And it's not a fact, if it was a fact then there would be tons of books about the so called destruction of other ethnic groups by the Somalis. And I know what Ibn Khaldun said, but he did not said that they were not of Somali-Arab stock. He called them a race, but what kind of race? And by the way in the modern ] there are no human races. And I never called you 'an muslim ethnic group' I don't like if you keep adding false info. And again ethnicity is not decided by language alone, I already told you that in the other talk page, It seems you forgot that(again), how odd? And dear Baboon, why did you not commented on the given source? To reach a consensus you need to comment on the sources, not adding dozens others. You know what I find odd? That you keep adding irrelevant sources about the language, and ignoring the other. ] (]) 14:02, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

::: i have never told you im harari but you have proven that your somali based on your edits but atleast i rely on reliable sources for my edits unlike you whom wants to set wiki up for a POV..you do know wikipedia can be edited by anyone right? i did comment on that source i told u its conflicting with my source that calls them habasha which you ignored. its better not to demean yourself ] (]) 14:52, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
:But does that change the fact that you are a Harari? But that is not the case here, we are not here to discuss the ethnic backgrounds of editors. And you don't need to retaliate by saying I'm Somali based on my edits? That is just a weak argument. So your comment on my source is that it's conflicting with the yours. But let shall we take a look at your sources. You are using links, but it is not possible to reach it. You are sending me to a preview book, and showing the page that is not included in the previewed edition of the book. Therefore I asked you to citate them and give the corresponding title and page number. And the subject of your sources are not relevant to the case, you keep saying that they spoke a Semetic language, but we are talking here about the ethnicity. Language is not the sole criteria for an shared ethnicity. You know why I ''ignored'' your sources, because I could not reach them, not a single one. And I'm not setting up a Wiki for a POV, If i wanted that I could simply create a Wiki by myself. So you have other comments on the sources? ] (]) 15:16, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

::::Yes we are not here to discuss ethnic backgrounds of users but you and midday have a hobby of that, its funny that you now want to flip the convo when its obvious..two somalis with POV stance are inputing anything they like and in the mean time distorting history by labeling everyone somali including arabs and ethiopians..i can get down to your specific clans if you want me to but on the topic dont side swipe my sources claming its a preview or you cant view it just because you dont want to admit the fact that walasma dynasty is disputed. by the way have you not looked at what your buddy was told about commenting on users background? its not allowed on wiki] (]) 16:31, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
:What a nice hasty generalization. You may call it 'POV stance'(wich is incorrect, what do you mean with Point of view stance?). You like to go the other way around, just like you are accusing me of. Your way of discussion is not worthy to be in a talk page of a respected enclyclopedia, with your personal attacks and Fringe theories, you won't reach an agreement.
It is a preview, just like all the books in Google.Books.... "by the way have you not looked at what your buddy was told about commenting on users background? its not allowed on wiki" Do you see me commenting on your background? And about that, if you mean user Middayexpress, he showed you a wikipedia rule page perhaps ]?. You keep ignoring things, that is not good. And did I said he was my buddy? And who said I'm not '''your''' buddy? I'm trying to have a decent conversation here, but you keep talking off-topic and impolite. And once more you did not commented on the given source. I think the discussion is ended here. You keep ignoring the sources, therefore I ''stop'' in this needless discussion. The Walashma dynasty was Somali-Arab, as said in the sources. If you are handeling in a chauvinistic way, that does not mean that every editor on this Wiki are doing the same. Thank you for your time. ] (]) 16:49, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

:: walashma were not arab somali they were actually abyssinians but the article was left as just a muslim family so there would be no dispute but you came along and put in somali so i have added POV tags because thats what your pushing that way. ] (]) 21:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
:::You keep saying that they were not Arab Somali, but saying all the time 'no' is making a yes-no discussion. But If I have the corresponding sources, how could I be ''pushing POV''? You can take a look on the citations, but no you don't want that, you keep saying no,no and no. How is that leading us to a consensus? You are going through this discussion like the popular Dutch proverb; ''Een kat in het nauw maakt rare sprongen'' (A cat in problem will jump eccentrically his way out). So you could begin with giving atleast a comment on the given source. ] (]) 14:40, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

:::: Your pushing POV maybe another editor can comment on this discussion because its going nowhere right now. Until than the POV tags stay capish? ] (]) 01:17, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::Let me give you an answer to ''its going nowhere right now''; If you keep refusing to stay on topic, yes it will lead us to nowhere so the solution always starts at your initiative. And could you tell me why I'm ''pushing POV''? Saying I am, without any arguments is just an empty statement. ] (]) 17:38, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

:::::: Obviously there's no consensus to your change but you insist you simply dont care about that we'll see what other editors have to say about this. This article remained muslim family until you just came along and started painting everything somali ] (]) 21:17, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
:So your mentality is to maintain anything and don't change a thing, that's present in the enclyclopedia? Then you can quit to be a Wikipedian. And making personal attacks is not leading us to a ''consensus''. If there is info needed to be updated, it should be changed, just like you change the Adal page, do you hear me saying that you pain everything harari? And once again you don't comment on the given source, you just ignore it and says that I'm insisting things? You should read ]. If you read well, you can see that the template in this article is not legitimate to maintain. ] (]) 19:56, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

::My mentality is that I dont agree with you and I have given you many reasons above with sources. Do you not understand what consensus means? Telling other users to quit editing is against wiki policies so I advise you to look through the rules. I dont paint everything harari but I have seen your edits and your painting many things as somali and that is POV. You seem to think anything arab can automatically be painted as somali which is just ridiculous. That source says arab somali but you got rid of the arab part and went ahead with somali just as the other article on umar arida was like before i came along ] (]) 16:41, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
:Please give me a citation when I told you to ''quite'' editing on Wiki. And even when I said that, it is not against the rules. If someone vandalize Wiki, he/she should stop editing. We call that ''blocking''. And give me a link where you see me editing, what seems arab put I ''paint'' it Somali. And about the Somali-Arab part. If Arabs come to Somala and integrate they are Somali, it is like saying that for example, that ] is a Morrocan, but he is ], but we all say he is Dutch, for though he is integrated in the Dutch culture. So what are your current ''critics''? And don't do any personal attacks again...And I noticed you like to use the word POV, but in those contexts POV is not bad. A human being has always a Point of View. I know what you mean with that, but I'm just saying that the way you use it is actually bad. And in the future give some sources for your statements, not just yelling around stuff, citate if you want me to show what I've done (bad things or good things).
PS: I never edited on the Umar Ar-Rida article ] (]) 19:31, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

:: Walasma were not somali if you look at the adal wiki page you would see that they are not. They didnt go to somalia they went to shewa and integrated into the local abyssinian culture. The nation of Somalia did NOT exist back than and there were other ethnic groups which is why if harar joined somalia their identity would disappear..dont go around adding tags on articles just because i put a tag on this one lets not play that game maybe its time for you take a wiki break anyways tag stays on till you can bring an actual source identifying them as somali as that one is not RS enough. ] (]) 09:40, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
:Excuse me, if you remove a tag without any verification, it should be restored. Do you see the irony here? Don't make some fringe theories, claiming that the Somali people did not exist at that time. I'm not playing a game, as I checked that article I noted that you removed the tag without adding any references, so you are telling me that I should move my back to any issues regarding to users I did not encoutered? '''Do you have a source which states that the Somali people did not exist in the 14-16th century?'''Did they fell from the sky at some point? I must say, it is an interesting theory, ''Fringe'', but interesting. You know you have a unique mentality, I'm not playing dodgeball, there is no such a thing as action-->reaction(in this case). Can you tell me why the current source it is not ''RS enough''? And by the way, using an other Wiki page is not an ]. ] (]) 14:26, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

:: I didnt claim somali people didnt exist maybe you should re-read what i posted anyways..that source is not RS because the actual book on walasma does not state they were somali..they were actually arab at first than abyssinian but gradually their descendants mixed in with local population depending on where they settled argoba harari afar or somali regions..there's no online preview of the book though but if u think your source is RS, provide atleast several sources stating they are somali. ] (]) 11:47, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
:"''The nation of Somalia did NOT exist back than and there were other ethnic groups which is why if harar joined somalia their identity would disappear''" Here you go, your own citation. And may I ask you what the acronym 'RS' is? I have no clue what you mean with that, perphas validity? And if you copy and paste my quotes, you could easily find the book and continue to read it. It does have a online preview, I don't posses the book. And '''I provided''' 'some' sources. Perphas you could check them?
PS: What are you implying with ''the actual book on walasma'', there are dozens of books that are discussing the dynasty and its members. ] (]) 14:53, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

:: dont remove tag..you dont seem to understand the things i have mentioned above so until other editors can be involved dont remove the POV tag also you have no consensus for your changes so i suggest u rever it back to its original state. ] (]) 18:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
:::Perphas you don't understand a thing here, you don't even give a '''single argument''' why the given sources are delusive. You don't even response properly to my questions, how will we reach a consensus if you just ignore me and only pop up when I remove the illegitime tag? ] (]) 15:12, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

:::: Walasma is claimed by more than one ethnic group not just somali if you go read the futuh al habasa you will see that there were other tribes in those regions or you can simply read the talk in abu bakr's article by the way you seem to think its a somali-ethiopian war when somalia did not exist back than it was called adal and it was led by many muslim ethnic groups in the region..the concept of somalia as a united nation is more recent..there's no preview online for the book that explains in depth about walasma family. ] (]) 15:38, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
::::: This is not about the people who are living there but who where '''ruling the state'''. Claiming and proofing are two different things my friend. And excuse me, where did I said that it was a Somali-Ethiopian war? Oh no, I was thinking it... Like you know what other people are thinking. "''the concept of somalia as a united nation is more recent''", Did I said it was a Somali state? And besides there were many ''Somali states'' in the medieval era, it don't need to be a fully unified state to be clasified as 'a Somali state'. And the books I gave are fully accessible. And you are beginning with "Walasma is claimed by more than one ethnic group..", I don't know about you, but saying that it is claimed by many ethnic groups does not help, not at all. And I think(or just let me say:I know) you are just making that up. Do you have any sources wich states that the Walas'''h'''ma is claimed by more than one ethnic group. And if you are thinking that there were no ''Somali'' states, you should look more to the East of the Horn region, if you know what I mean. And why don't you answer me with some arguments that the Walashma were not Somali? You don't? So let's remove the tag as there is no discussion. Only yelling awkward things won't help you, nor me. So if you are suggesting that the Walashma is not Somali, what were they then? If you don't know, than give a source wich states that they were '''not''' 'ethnically' based. If you respond again in a useless manner, I'm afraid I just won't reply, as it is just a waste of time and energy and remove the tag, untill you give some solid proof for your theories (including that the Somalis did not exist in the middle ages) ] (]) 18:05, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::: Threatening to cut off discussion will just make matters worse so i suggest u stick to the topic and not go overboard as i said earlier 3rd opinion is needed because the discussion is going on a merry go round and i have given u many sources claiming walasma is claimed by many ethnic groups shall i re-post them again? ] (]) 02:46, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::::I'm tired listening to your nonsense(no offence), as you are directing us to nearly every subject that is not related to the current one. And yes it would be fine if you post your sources that said that it is claimed by other ethnic groups, but I'm afraid that it won't help, because adding a source that says that the Walashma is claimed by more ethnic groups, is not giving the ethnic background of the Walashma itself, it is just saying:'It is claimed by more than one ethnic group'. Great, fine to hear that, but what will it provide? The identity of the dynasty? Nope. And actually I'm not 'threatening' to cut off the discussion, as this is not worth to be called; ''an discussion''. ] (]) 17:15, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

:::::::: Stop being uncivil and personal attacks on users wont get you anywhere that aside, start reading my posts by the way the tag is not illegitimate because there is a serious POV issue on this article when things are labeled somali when they are not.. Wali Asma is an amhara he was in Abyssinian territory when he launched the sultanate of shoa those are the facts ill quote from the book when i get my hands on it in the mean time i want you to go to the library or google it and buy the book also this source states Abyssinian emperor appointing wali asma as leader and this source states walsma took amhara culture so if they were somalisized arabs why didnt they take the somali culture? based on your logic these were somalis that acted like amharas..walasma may have had arab roots but they were characterized as amhara because that was their cultural affiliation ] (]) 02:49, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:I'm sorry but I'm discussing here in a proper manner, I don't know what your problem is. Critizing your way of discussing is not, and I repeat, not a personal attack. Did you know that insulting an other user of attacking you, is actually in fact a personal attack? "''by the way the tag is not illegitimate because there is a serious POV issue on this article when things are labeled somali when they are not''" Hmmm.. but you are not saying anything about the fact that it is sourced? The source I gave says explicity that the dynasty was Somalized Arabic. And giving links to a book without a review is not giving a solid proof of your claim. Could you citate the source and give the title of the book, the pages being used, the authors and the date of publication. Tha's a fully cited source that could be used. You could give the citation, rather then saying it, and linking it, or else tha's a case of ]. And by the way, removing the given content during the discussion is not ''civil'' and against ]. I don't like when you just ignore the given soures and inputting links to restricted books. No title, no author, no anything, just a link and your statement and calling it a 'POV issue'', point of view? Sorry mister, but I'm only using books, or is that also a 'serious POV issue'? ] (]) 12:49, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

:: Really? from the links i sent you cant find page and author? ] (]) 16:23, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
:::I can't find the citations, as I told you, you must insert the quotes here with the page and author. I'm not saying you must re-read my post, but to read it again and complete your burden as a editor. I think you know exactly what I meant with:"''Could you citate the source and give the title of the book, the pages being used, the authors and the date of publication.''", not that I can't the author in the link, but to insert it here. And for a fact, '''yes''' I can't find the page, as it is directing me to the front page, not the page(s) being used as a source. So citate your source in the future. If you don't know how, ]. Regards. ] (]) 13:20, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

:::: source 6 is the link to the book which i dont have yet but when i get it ill send you the pages..i sent you that link because you asked which book im talking about..and source 7 title: "The ethiopian borderlands" page 40 by Richard Pankhurst..source 7 clearly states that they were amharisized now that conflicts with your source does it not? and source 8 ill give you later ] (]) 05:15, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::Could you citate the source, about that they were amharisized? Not only saying that they were amharisized, but also a full citation. ] (]) 12:48, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
::::::sorry not source 7 but 8 says "''During such interaction, the Walasma were influenced by Amhara cultural traditions and upon returning to the Muslim Argobba escarpment slopes they introduced the fanfare and pomp which went along with kingship or lordship in the highlands, and Amharic quickly took up momentum as a language of Walasma administration of the Argobba population.''". excerpts from the book "Tradition and Transformation: The Argobba of Ethiopia" By Abebe Kifleyesus p.117. ] (]) 00:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::::Good source, but we are not here discussing the influences. Ofcourse where they influenced by surrounding cultures and languages, but what where they ''before'' they were influenced, and how does this influence transform them into an Amharic dynasty? For example; did the British royal house turned Dutch after the ]? Even though it was ruled by a Dutchman? We call the British royal house 'British'. And the given sources states that it happened during the interaction between the Walashma and the Amharas, thus explaining that the Walashma and the Amharas were not of the same stock. And the source also states that they only adopted the Amharic language in the administration of the Argobba peoples. Influencing is not amharizition, does the source states what their native language and orign was?
"''But the fourteenth-century rise of a Walasma dynasty in the Harar region, led by large numbers of people who were clearly of Ifat origin''"- Roland Anthony Oliver and J. D. Fage, The Cambridge History of Africa: From c. 1050 to c. 1600- page 150. I think that this soure clearly states what their origin were.
"''In due time these converts even established the Muslim sultanates of '''Ifat, Dawaro, Adal, and dahlak''' and put pressure on the highland Ethiopian Christians by controlling trade through the main seaports of Suakin, Aydhab, Zeila, and Berbera''"-John Middleton, Encyclopedia of Africa south of the Sahara- page 62
] (]) 10:49, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
: Well like many groups in east africa walashma claim arab as their source but harari chronicals say wali asma was an amhara it could be because he was influenced by amhara culture as my source points out..im not sure if it is referring to the dynasty or not though but the man called wali asma is an amhara based on harari documents and he ruled harar and im guessing adal as he is listed as one of the kings of harar. somali arabs would not be influenced by amhara unless somalis didnt have a culture back than anyways the point is people refer to you by your cultural identity back than and it is not clear as more research needs to be done but leaving it as muslim noble family is the right thing to do until several sources list them as somali. ] (]) 03:17, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
::"'' Well like many groups in east africa walashma claim arab as their source''", it is nice to know if groups are claiming that Arab is their origin, but what do we gain from that knowledge? We are not talking here about the influences, but about the ethnicity. And as I stated before;Influencing is not the same as the original stock of the dynasty. And if we are talking about influencing;How is it possible that a group(amhara) is influencing the dynasty, wich you claim was amhara, if they are the same? How is it possible that for example that the Afar people were influencing the language of the ]? "''somali arabs would not be influenced by amhara unless somalis didnt have a culture back than''" Do you have a source that explicite points out that Somalis did not have a culture 'back then'? Every people had a culture, it would be absurd if a people did not have a culture. No culture means no people and vice versa. Please do not inpute some fringe theories, that would hurt the progress of this discussion. And I have ''several sources'', but you still ignore them, that is not great. ] (]) 11:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

:: original stock of the dynasty is arab..amhara influenced walasma because they were in shewa territory as midday posted in adal sultanate they are said to be the first to penetrate habasha territory so that means they mingled with amharas..aussa sultanate was an afar sultanate it was led by walasma member but than it was taken over by afars after they abandoned harar..and i will ignore the culture part because you obviously dont understand me..no country existed named somalia so arab alone is enough. ] (]) 04:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
{{outdent}}
Baboon43 asked me to weigh in on the discussion. If one consults my extensive chat with him on the Adal Sultanate talk page, it is clear that the Walashma were of Arab origin. However, there likely was some degree of both Somalization and Amharization in the northern Somali and Ethiopian Shewa regions, respectively. With regard to Abyssinian influence on the Walashma once they settled in the Ethiopian interior, J.D. Fage mentions that the names of the princes in the Arab documents pertaining to the early Shewa sultanate and the Walashma dynasty of both Ifat and Adal suggested Abyssinian affinities. By the same token, we need only look at the titles of the rulers in Zeila to see that the influence there was primarily Somali. An example of this is Garad Lado, who built the strong wall around Zeila. ''Garad''/''Gerad'' is a common ], used as far back as the late 1200s by the rulers of the ], among others. The implication of all of this is that the Walashma were eventually absorbed and influenced by the populations wherever they settled. This would have made them both of Arab origin and ancestors to many people in the region -- much like how the ] Sheikh ] or the ] Sheikh Ishaq ibn Ahmad al-Hashimi were of Arab origin, yet still at the same time the patriarchs of many Somalis in the area. There's no contradiction there. Fage explains the situation well :
<blockquote>"There is no doubt that Zeila was also predominantly Somali, and al-Dimashqi, another thirteenth-century Arab writer, gives the town its Somali name Awdal (Adal), still known among the local Somali. By the fourteenth century the significance of this Somali port for the Ethiopian interior had increased so much that all the Muslim communities established along the trade routes into central and southeastern Ethiopia were commonly known in Egypt and Syria by the collective term of 'the country of Zeila'. Zeila was certainly the point of departure for the numerous Muslim communities and political units in the Ethiopian region, most of which, just like the Somali clan families of Darod and Ishaq, had persistent traditions of Arab origin."</blockquote> ] (]) 13:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
@Baboon, "''and i will ignore the culture part because you obviously dont understand me..no country existed named somalia so arab alone is enough''" Did I said that there was a Somali republic back in the middle ages? Was there a Amhara region? No, so if I had your mentality I would say:''There was no Amhara coutry, so the amhara people did not exist''. Do you see that it does not make any sense? What do I don't understand? Tell me. And I would also like you to explain this:"''somalis have destroyed many ethnic groups to be the dominant force today including the mayans by the way somalis also say hararis are somali even though they are semitic they claim they were somali that became arab or something like that''", as you ignored me earlier. ] (]) 17:39, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
: I mentioned that to prove a point so i wont get into it because its off topic. ] (]) 16:08, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


The Dynasty was multi-ethnic and Omer Walashma was an Arab who came from hijaz. ] (]) 10:55, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
:He wasn't and next time try to gain consensus instead of blindly reverting. ] (]) 17:45, 14 March 2015 (UTC) :He wasn't and next time try to gain consensus instead of blindly reverting. ] (]) 17:45, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
:Am not losing consensus, but let's leave it as a ''Muslim dynasty''. Just to get rid of the conflict were having. ] (]) 18:45, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
:It was much more than that. ] (]) 01:18, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
:Just leave as a ''Muslim Dynasty''. ] (]) 21:16, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


:I honestly just did that, Harari234 and I think it's an adequate neutral end to all this. But Umar Walashma himself didn't come from the Hejaz, his ancestor Isma'il Al-Jaberti came from the 7ejaz (well, his son did) these Arab proslytizers never actually founded Somali clans but were claimed as Somali ancestors nonetheless, his genealogy (Aqeeli- the valid one) is basically a Darod clan genealogy. Midday shared a source () that explains how these proselytizers were both foreign but ancestral to Somali clans
== Ethnic identity largely irrelevant in 15th century Horn of Africa ==
(fabled claims) :


"There is no doubt that Zeila was also predominantly Somali, and al-Dimashqi, another thirteenth-century Arab writer, gives the town its Somali name Awdal (Adal), still known among the local Somali. By the fourteenth century the significance of this Somali port for the Ethiopian interior had increased so much that all the Muslim communities established along the trade routes into central and southeastern Ethiopia were commonly known in Egypt and Syria by the collective term of 'the country of Zeila'. Zeila was certainly the point of departure for the numerous Muslim communities and political units in the Ethiopian region, most of which, just like the Somali clan families of Darod and Ishaq, had persistent traditions of Arab origin."
While it looms large today, people couldn't care less at this time. The irony of debating whether a dynasty was Arab or Somali is that all Somali clans claim to be Qurayshi Arabs, and have a nisba to Abi Taleb to prove it. ] (]) 22:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

: walasma had amhara culture therefore the dynasty is more ethiopian then somali but wali asmas arab background is noted..this is one of the main cases the abyssianias make as their argument for saying the whole of a ifat/adal is therefore theirs. ] (]) 00:00, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
The other genealogy which is a semi-legendary origin shared by Harari historians </nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>] & in oral traditions </nowiki>] goes to who was pretty much a well-known saint, one of his achievements being creating the proto-form for a sort of . He impossibly claimed Hashemite (Ali, Prophet's cousin) based origins. These people are 'Arab' but also ancestral to Somali clans (claimed to be-> disproved by genetic data) and anyone claiming descent from them is essentially a Somali. But for neutrality's sake I think we both agree it should be left as "Muslim Dynasty". Everything I mentioned is responsible for why I.M Lewis and other historians viewed them as either Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis. </nowiki>] . These aren't "Arab genealogies"-> they're Somali ones which in turn like all Somali genealogies claim Arab origins. But I sincerely hope this is the end of all ''discussions'' here. ] (]) 11:07, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
:: Don't be absurd, there were some habesha Muslims who lived in the land in question, but they were not Amhara they were Gurage. The Walashma were neither. ] (]) 01:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
:]/] please come to the talk page once again instead of edit waring. ] (]) 16:30, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::: well it looks like you have to read up on history..gurege were nothing more then an extension of the current harari which at that time were called harla..the gurege only recently developed into a separate ethnic group..the adal war and oromo invasion weakened the semitic gurege-harari lines ] (]) 01:23, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
:::: You have shown incredible ignorance here, first by claiming Walashma are Amhara of all people, then by claiming Hararis are the ancestors of Gurage and that Xarla of all people are their ancestors. The Xarla still exist, by the way. Then you have the temerity to claim I haven't done enough research, perhaps I should read books written by yourself, since that's clearly the only place I'm going to find any literature supporting your hypothesis. ] (]) 01:38, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
::::: well sorry but you cant push POV by claiming everyone is somali on articles and yes you do need to read history not come here with original research..yea according to you everyone exists harla, imam ahmeds family what else? perhaps even his sword is in your possession ] (]) 01:45, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
:::::''"on the eve of Islamic state expansion: on the one hand, there was a cushitic speaking cluster, which we refer to in the following as Hadiyya-Sidama, and on the other hand, there was a Semitic-speaking cluster of the Harala-Harari"'' ] (]) 02:03, 17 February 2013 (UTC)


== Recent edits == == Recent edits ==
Line 149: Line 65:


Also on a random side note: the Walashma practiced ] which is also practiced by '''some''' Somali royal houses to this day, i.e. the last 4 ] Boqors have been brothers or nephews of the previous Boqor. This is not at all an Arab or Abyssinian (or to my knowledge; Argobba) practice. ] (]) 06:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC) Also on a random side note: the Walashma practiced ] which is also practiced by '''some''' Somali royal houses to this day, i.e. the last 4 ] Boqors have been brothers or nephews of the previous Boqor. This is not at all an Arab or Abyssinian (or to my knowledge; Argobba) practice. ] (]) 06:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
:Thank you for your help ]. ] (]) 01:17, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

No prob. :-) ] (]) 04:53, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

== "Multi-ethnic" Makes little sense ==

This wasn't a dynasty like who for example were "Jointly Arab & Somali rulers" with the ruler being a "Barbara" (Somali) for example in 14th Century CE when Ibn Battuta </nowiki>] visited but definitely having some Arab ruling predecessors to my knowledge. They weren't also a family made up of several groups. F.e. one leader was not Somali and then one a generation later was "Arab" & another was "Harari" & another was so and so. It's an inaccurate title but I truly appreciate the compromise from the editor who made it instead of "all out warring".

But I'll state this very simply... There are but two genealogies for this group and various historical opinions on them from Ethiopian & Somali studies based historians. They are seen often as either ''Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis'' </nowiki>] </nowiki>] citing the Arab influence in their genealogies (claiming Arabian ancestors as many Somalis do) but then the Somali influence here is clear whereby for example individuals they claimed were for all extents and purposes beyond their grandiose and impossible (claiming descent from Ali, the Prophet's cousin for example) were "Somali", Aw Barkhadle for example was a speaker of Somali, devising a sort of writing form for it Arabic where people could easily learn to read Arabic, this evolved into a sort of . But he is a legendary ancestor and couldn't have been their ancestor despite oral traditions </nowiki>] & Harari records affirming that he is </nowiki>]. The more accepted origin is the one tying them to the Darod clan and to Aqeel Ibn Abi Talib, this is the most repeated origin and is even shared by ]. To consider this dynasty "Arab" is to consider all Somalis or all Darods "Arab" like them as all Somalis share in this form of genealogy and one of the genealogies is even directly shared with a Somali clan (the more accepted one, might I add).

If you're using their genealogies as proof of their "Arab-ness" then imho you must do go onto the Somali people page and add the text 'An Arab people' and also add "Multi-ethnic" to every single ruling dynasty in Somalia as there's no genealogical tradition difference (in that they all claim Arab ancestors) between all of them and this dynasty (even the ones with yet living Somali descendants to this day) which clearly ties itself to Somali figures who in turn claim Arab origins whether ancestral or saintly. Their genealogy is "Arab" but only via Somalis and all Somalis have such genealogies. Otherwise I appreciate the compromise from the editor who made such an edit and invite him or her to a discussion here. If you want to add the title "A Muslim dynasty of either Arabized Somalis or Somalized Arab origins"-> I'm seriously willing for such a compromise if it will end constant warring over this (people claiming they're Argobba one day and then Arabs, it is getting tedious). I already made such an edit for neutrality's sake while we have a discussion here. Regards, ] (]) 07:08, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

{{od}}

To add to the above just a little bit-> these genealogies have been proven to be fake for most Somalis via genetic data. I.e. the majority of male Somalis are carriers of either or in some more westerly regions of Greater Somalia; , these are both obviously not Arabian Y-DNA markers. () Some Somalis and indeed various Horn populations carry which is a marker with subclades common among Arabians however the J1 presence in the Horn does not fit with Arabians, it has more diversity in the Horn and looks more like a bottle-neck in Arabia-> and the marker is rare among Somalis. Well well over a hundred ethnic Somali males from all over Greater-Somalia tested for their Y-DNA mostly come out with , a marker shared with fellow Cushitic speakers like Oromos and T-M184 is shared with virtually all Horn populations who speak Ethiopian Semitic or Cushitic languages. In terms of autosomal DNA it's been well-established for years no that Somalis show no real Arab ancestry at all. They have a gross amount of West Asian ("Middle Eastern") ancestry but it's quite ancient as even sources shared on this site point out on the ] page.

Here are various peer-reviewed papers on population genetics (inarguable data) touching upon Somali-Horn Y-DNA & mtDNA data and corroborating my statements: </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>]

Peer-reviewed paper for admixture/ Autosomal DNA (a representation of the actual ancestry in groups): </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>]


I'm adding this because one member came onto my page trying to argue that Somalis '''definitely have Arab ancestry''' citing how we "joined the Arab League" which is a pointless thing to bring up as we joined it for economic and political reasons/ motivations that it has barely even satisfied over the last few decades with . Whilst the cultural, historical, religious and trade connections between us and Arabians are sacrosanct and cannot be denied-> we are not at all "An Arab people", genetically, linguistically (we are native Cushitic speakers-> and ] have more Semitic speaking ancestry than we ever will) and so forth; we are not "Arab" at all. These genealogies are clearly as I.M Lewis once mused- :

"According to the British anthropologist and Somali Studies veteran I.M. Lewis, while the traditions of descent from noble Arab families related to Muhammad are most probably expressions of the importance of Islam in Somali society"

- not real-> the genetic data that none of us clearly have any Arab ancestors except for recent outliers (people with Arab grandmothers or one Arab parent or great grandparent etc.) is entirely conclusive. Somalis from all over North-Central Somalia, Ethiopia and even Kenya have been tested-> none show a hint of Arabian origins or ancestry. But anyway, this is not a forum and I'm not here to share opinions-> merely pointing out that if one wants to claim these genealogies are legitimate and real Arabs mixed with native Somalis back in the Middle Ages; the genetic data disproves you.

So please refrain from even trying to argue that these genealogies are real and that any Somali or Horn population is actually descended from ]. These figures were either Somalis to begin with (Barkhadle was more or less) or just never ancestral to anyone at all and were clearly just claimed as such for religious reason-> anyone with a connection to them is duly Somali (the only people who claim "descent" from them).

Arguing that a genealogy traces to Arabs for example when it does that via the ancestors of Somali clans (The Aqeeli-Jeberti genealogy is basically a Darod associated genealogy) is pointless because with this logic arguing that they were Arab leaves you with the argument that all Somalis share in such ancestry/ you're saying all Somalis (or ones of said clan) are "Arab" if you get my point. <- it's a fallacy and just leaving it at "Somali" is enough. ] (]) 14:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
:I didnt "run away" from discussion. It seems your using ] in your arguments. The IP user is wrong to say multi ethinic. So lets get this straight. My source say Argobba yours says somalized arab or arabisized somali. Your source seems weaker. It generalizes the ethnic background by estimating that It was Arabs or Somalis. FYI Arogbba means Arabs have entered, its a reference to them immigrating to the horn many years ago. ] (]) 19:42, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
:It is indeed quite common for folks unfamiliar with Horn populations to attribute their non-African affinities to Arabian ancestry. This confusion stems at least in part from the Horn groups themselves, and specifically their traditions of descent. Like the other League of Arab States members, Somalia is in the Arab League for more than just political and economic reasons. It has been part and parcel of the Arab world for centuries. Traditionally, Hararis and many other Afro-Asiatic populations in the Horn are similarly socioculturally oriented. The Arab world itself for the most part isn't really "Arab"; most populations in it don't actually descend from the original Arabic language speakers. It instead consists of various Afro-Asiatic populations with varying degrees of Arabian cultural and linguistic affiliations. That said, genetics, linguistics and some cultural aspects suggest that most of the non-African affinities in the Horn today originate instead with the first Afro-Asiatic speaking settlers in the region. In other words, that's the ancestry, language and culture of the first Somali, Afar, Harari, Beja, Amhara etc. themselves. articulate this quite well in their study, wherein they identify a new non-African inferred ancestral component, which they dub the "Ethio-Somali". They estimate that ethnic Somalis, Afar, Tigre, Amhara, etc. trace the majority of their ancestry to this "Ethio-Somali" genetic component, and suggest that it is the legacy of the first Afro-Asiatic speaking settlers in the Horn. For reasons I shall try and elaborate on at another time, this is almost certainly true. Recent archaeological excavations in northern Somali territory have yielded old artefacts, including human figurines complete with countenances. These artefacts, and especially their likenesses, all but confirm the existence of an ancient Afro-Asiatic civilization in the area; one that was closely related to the Afro-Asiatic civilization in Predynastic and Dynastic Egypt and distinct from those of Bantu/Nilotic populations. ] (]) 20:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}
Zekenyan: Abdulkader Saleh Mohammad is mistaken about the Walashma speaking Argobba. The 19th century Ethiopian historian Asma Giyorgis indicates that the Walashma instead spoke Arabic . ] (]) 20:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
:The Argobbas are Arabs they are descendants of the Hijra to Abyssinia. The Arabisized Somali source does not even mention Walashma whereas my source mentions Walashma by name. As the user Awale has confirmed there is no source that will mention Somalis. Its quite clear my source stands as the most reliable. I dont think hypothesis and other Wp:synthis arguments is proper for this establishment. Do you have counter sources or not? here is a source that has an indepth history on argobba and mentions walasma. "'The Emperors recognized the prominent Walasma family known for their good deeds, as the overlords of Yifat and gave them authority to administrate"'on page 175 ] (]) 20:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
::Argobbas are ordinary Ethiosemitic speaking populations. They just happen to primarily adhere to Sunni Islam instead of Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity. There are also no historical scholars who indicate that the Walashma spoke Argobba. ] (]) 17:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@70.74 thats original research. Provide sources. ] (]) 22:39, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

{{od}}

That statement about Argobbas practically warrants a ban... Argobbas are Southern Ethiopian Semitic speaking people (Habeshas), their closest linguistic relatives are the ] who have had their autosomal DNA, Y-DNA & mtDNA sampled-> they do not come out with any "Arab" ancestry other than some very ancient ancestry likely acquired form shifting to South-Semitic very likely 3,000 years ago </nowiki>].

The likelihood that Argobbas will come out grossly distinct from Amharas especially given the physical similarities between the two groups is very low. No one in the Horn is "Arab"-> these genealogies and claimed origins tying themselves to Arabs are fake. But that's what I'm starting to realize about our posters like you Zekenyan; you seem quite unaware of the actual history of the Horn especially in a genetic sense-> if you were aware you'd never make claims like "Argobbas are Arab". '''Note:''' Ethiopian Semitic is '''South Semitic'''-> Arabic is '''Central Semitic''' and more related to ] or Hebrew than to Argobba so don't even try to make linguistic arguments utilizing Argobbas speaking Semitic as a platform. The majority of the ancestry in Ethio-Semites like Tigrinyas & Amharas who've been sampled for their genetic data proves "Cushitic" with some Omotic admixture (look at the plethora of papers I shared). ] (]) 08:07, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

{{od}}

I'll re-iterate this one last time for people... All Somalis have Arab genealogies, one of the two genealogies the Walashma have is associated clearly with a Somali clan (the Aqeeli one-> I shared plenty of sources and I'm not going to rummage through this very page or others for the same links), this is a Somali genealogy and anyone who claims is it is claiming Somali origins-> they're genuinely claiming Arab origins because as I and Midday have pointed it out-> these Arab genealogies are mostly entirely fake & completely disproven in a genetic sense.

The other ties itself to a Somali saint who claimed a lofty and completely impossible ] tied genealogy (most Somalis do-> Isaaq, Darood-> both tie themselves to Hashemites) and I don't think I need to describe how impossible him being a descendant of Ali (Prophet's cousin) is but anyway, he's a well-known figure who even paved the way for the usage of a sort Somali-Arabic script. Harari historians, oral traditions and such tie him to them as their ancestor again clearly showing a Somali origin as per the perspective of other ethnic groups no less (I've shared enough sources on this page about this origin). But this origin is legendary. He isn't their ancestor as even this page tells you... Aw Barkhadle was born around the same century as the Walashma's founder yet the Harari record genealogy shared by Enrico Cerulli would have us believe Barkhadle is 'Umar's ancestor via 5 generations. And for example "The History of the Walashma" mentions him as their ancestor but it's considered a semi-legendary piece because it even claims 'Umar (founder of the dynasty) lived to be over 100 years old and reigned for 80 of those years... Barkhadle isn't their ancestor. Some of you like this one editor who followed me to my page don't even seem to know this. But so many sources tying them to a Somali figure along with the other genealogy only solidifies their origins... The origins of most of their soldiers (Somali) and such is only icing on the cake. Unless we have more rounds of "They were Argobba" nonsense, I'm done for now. ] (]) 08:07, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
:i guess you dont have any sources except ] arguments. ] (]) 08:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

{{od}}

What? I said clearly that I won't share my sources all over again because they're shared already all over the page (you can't read?) but you know what I'll share them again:

Here are various peer-reviewed papers on population genetics (inarguable data) touching upon Somali-Horn Y-DNA & mtDNA data and corroborating my statements: </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>]

Peer-reviewed paper for admixture/ Autosomal DNA (a representation of the actual ancestry in groups): </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , </nowiki>]

Here are many historical sources I've shared on their genealogies:

</nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , ] , </nowiki>]

You and I have been at this for a while and you've read my posts, I imagine. Did you really think I lacked sources for the things I was saying? Really? All the sources I've shared... Habeshas are not Arab-> the genetic data on this is conclusive, if you think otherwise... I dunno what to say really. ] (]) 08:37, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

:I meant bring forth sources that say walashma family were Somali without ]. Im not here to talk about genetics and DNA. I am trying to explain to you that academics view Walashma as Argobba. ] (]) 08:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I did... Do you know who the saint I keep talking about is? Can you even read, man? Or did you even check my sources. The "Somalized Arab" & "Arabized Somali" sentence is not even mine but I.M Lewis' : </nowiki>] (I already shared this... God's sake...)

Aw Barkhadle who is noted as their ancestor in all these sources is basically a Somali saint/ historical figure : </nowiki>] , </nowiki>] , ] , </nowiki>]

One of those links also shows you the Aqeeli-Jaberti origin which is basically a Darod clan genealogy ]... Are you just not reading the sources I've shared? Or...? The fact that these "Arab genealogies" tie them to Somali figures (like Barkhadle) is concrete. (you have your sources) Not even arguable. Now, sources tying them to Argobba genealogies and historical figures and a book perhaps using the terms "Argobbized Arabs or Arabized Argobbas" or the word Argobba itself to describe them? Not fringe stuff like Braukamper either who didn't even say Argobba but "Ethio-Semitic". ] (]) 08:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
:You simply cant "tie saints" and come to a conclusion. Did you read the synth policy? The lewis source is not mentioning Walashma directly. I dont see the problem in adding it in the body paragraph or in the Adal articles but this article is exclusively about Walashma. We must go by what the sources say. Your asking for my sources to be disregarded but you cant find a single source that says Walasma were a somali family. Instead your coming with your own conclusion that they must of been because Somalis have Arab ties. Original research cant be used on wikipedia. ] (]) 09:01, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

{{od}}

Listen, when a genealogy says clearly that the ancestor of a clan is a Somali or a Somali saint or a Somali clan ancestor then it's pretty conclusive (nothing Synth about this). All those sources pretty much say they were Somali by giving them Somali genealogies (or a genealogy if you want me to use only one source and avoid synth), unless you lack simple comprehension skills and I'm not even trying to be offensive here.

And finally; not one source EVER claims they were Argobba, not one. And you haven't shared any other than Braukamper who admits he has no proof for most of his musings and never even says they were Argobba but more broadly Southern Ethiopian Semitic IIRC. You have no evidence whatsoever. I think everyone here from Midday to me to even Harari23 who says they're Arabs finds your Argobba argument completely nonsensical. I'm not going to even entertain this.

Also there is a source that says they were Somalis (you really don't read my sources do you? I read yours...): </nowiki>] <- Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis, there (he's counting the Ifat-Adal rulers in that consensus). God's sake... There, that's ONE source. ] (]) 09:06, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
:I read the source it doesnt mention Walashma. ] (]) 09:22, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

^ He says rulers of Zeila and such (at a time when they ruled)-> he's saying all the medieval dynasties of that time (of the areas he described) like the Muzaffar of Mogadishu (who were legitimately Arab + Somali/ joint rulers) & the Adal, even wiki cites him in the Adal & Ifat pages as referring to dynasties like the Walashma which he is. Keep reading too, he touches upon the Adal and such and even mentions the genealogical connections between them and the saint.

From wiki alone:

"According to I.M. Lewis, the polity was governed by local dynasties consisting of Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis, who also ruled over the similarly-established Sultanate of Mogadishu in the Benadir region to the south. Adal's history from this founding period forth would be characterized by a succession of battles with neighbouring Abyssinia." <- has been on wiki for years (long before even I began editing here)

Source: </nowiki>](he clearly refers to the Adal here which was ruled by the Walashma)

For the record I'm open to a discussion here but if you keep saying they're "Argobba"... It's just difficult to take seriously. '''There's no proof''' (synth or otherwise) except for one author (Braukamper) who admits he has no proof (and he never points toward Argobba but if I recall correctly speaks of Ethio-Semites in general) for many of his musings like the Harla being Ethio-Semitic (who knows what they were) & another who also claims the ] was '''Ethio-Semitic''' (he never says Argobba but just broadly Ethio-Semitic), they're both fringe and I'm not disregarding them because they're your sources and I disagree with you but because they both disprove themselves. If you really want a consensus here stop making statements like "Argobbas are Arab"-> they're a Southern Ethiopian Semitic people who don't even speak Arabic as their mother tongue.] (]) 09:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

{{od}}

I'll say this one last time... Your source: </nowiki>] is based on the work of Braukamper who has no concrete proof for any claims he makes and he is indeed a fringe author. List them as 'Arab' or simply 'Muslim' if you want but if you go around sharing a source we've all pointed out to you (including a veteran editor here like Middayexpress) to be fringe-> you will be reported. I've given you sources for them being Somali or Somalized Arabs & Arabized Somalis and some members even have okay arguments that they were just Middle Eastern Arabs-> if you have qualms with all that; it's your problem. Don't vandalize this page. ] (]) 09:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I've edited the page to just say "Muslim Dynasty" (something Harari234 suggested). The page itself contains ample sources from years ago pointing out the Somali origins of the dynasty (f.e. via their genealogies) or their Somalized-Arab or Arabized-Somali origin. A lot of warring has been sparked by just adding simple text like "Somali Muslim dynasty" or "Arab Muslim dynasty" or "Somalized Arab or Arabized Somali dynasty" (even if all three have ample proof and sources as I've shared) so really-> before this page goes wild over more warring lets just leave it at "Muslim Dynasty" and move on with our lives... This means no more further vandalizing from you, Zekenyan. There used to be a member like you who argued that they were Ethiopian Semitic (for which there is no actual proof) and edit warred for his position; he got banned. Don't follow in his footsteps. ] (]) 10:19, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

:That was Baboon43. He actually turned out be an alright, good faith editor, just with an initial difference in opinion. He was blocked for something else related to the ] organization. After actually reading the historical documents on Ifat, Adal and the Walashma, Baboon43 also eventually realized that the modern writers are all over the place with regard to these polities, and that their assertions are often essentially speculative (the Argobba claims are an excellent example of this); so it's ultimately best to rely instead wherever possible on the actual medieval or early modern literature (i.e. ], ] and Asma Giyorgis, etc). ] (]) 17:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

{{od}}

Zekenyan: Per both ] and the Walashma's own chronicle, the Walashma had a Quraysh lineage (like many Somali, Harari, Afar, etc. Muslim clans). Maqrizi also indicates that the forefathers of 'Umar Walashma first settled in the ]-controlled Jabarta region and from there later moved into the hinterland to occupy Ifat as well : "Both Maqrizi and the chronicle of the Walasma dynasty give a Quraysh or Hashimite origin for 'Umar Walasma. According to Maqrizi, the ancestors of 'Umar Walasma first settled in Jabara (or Jabarta) a region which he says belonged to Zeila; they gradually moved further inland and occupied Ifat also. But Maqrizi gives us no information on the rulers before 'Umar Walasma; nor does the chronicle of the Walasma dynasty, despite the long genealogy it gives for 'Umar, who in fact assumes the characteristics of a legendary figure." ] (]) 17:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I have two sources its not just Braukamper one . Your both repeating the samething using Saint to tie Somali and other ethnic groups. The academics did not come to that conclusion. ] (]) 17:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
:They did. Please read instead of making things up. Abdi is simplifying it for you. ] (]) 18:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

== ʿUmar DunyaHuz "Walashma" was an ethnic Somali ==

There is a bold statement in the article that ʿUmar DunyaHuz "Walashma" was an ethnic Somali. This statement is not sourced. When I take a look in sources I'm not seeing the evidence that he was a Somali. Indeed, some sources put him as coming from a Quraysh or Hashemite background. , , , , . I'm probably missing something obvious, but that statement either needs a reliable source or should be removed from the article. ''']''' ''']''' 17:07, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
:The entire establishment section is original research. I dont think any editors would oppose the removal. ] (]) 07:48, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
::I don't know if it is original research, but there are no sources for it, and the sources I have read disagree with it. Indeed, the sourced information in the next section disagrees with it, so it is possible that it is original research. Under our core policy of verifiability, I have removed the material per ]. The material should not now be replaced unless or until properly sourced. I currently have this article watchlisted, so I will be able to respond to queries. ''']''' ''']''' 17:28, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
:::Perhaps ] can provide clarification here, as he originally noted the lineage. He has some knowledge on the early lineage systems in the area. ] (]) 17:51, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

::: The whole "he was an ethnic Somali" point is pretty simple really and I don't quite grasp why people need it repeated again and again. It's simple... He and his line have two genealogies. The first one traces back to a sort of old Somali patriarchal figure named . It's shared in "The History of the Walashma" </nowiki>] and is where their Hasani nisba/ lineage (Hassan as in the son of who was the cousin of the Prophet-> so a Hashemite lineage indeed) comes from, Harari historians also share it </nowiki>] & it's known in oral traditions </nowiki>]. But it's basically a semi-legendary genealogy despite Enrico Cerulli also taking note of it in Harar where there was a record of it and this was noted by I.M Lewis </nowiki>].

::: The other genealogy goes straight to Isma'il Al-Jaberti-> patriarch/ ancestor to the Darod clan, this is their Aqeeli nisba (tracing back to ), it's the most shared genealogy and was even shared by ] , it's also the more legitimate one according to most historians who've studied them. It's because of these clearly Somali-Arab (all Somalis in truth claim Arabian ancestors/ patriarchs such as with the Isaaq & ]: both these tribes also claim Qurayshitic origins btw) that I.M Lewis for example dubs them "Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis". </nowiki>] That's really it, there's nothing "original research" about this and I've shared sources for these genealogies and the fact for example that the first one traces back to the Saint. Also, it doesn't really say anywhere on this page that he was "an ethnic Somali" and we even re-iterated this page's opening text to simply & neutrally say "Muslim Dynasty" so I don't see the point in even arguing over this anymore. The Somali nature of their genealogies is simply noted on the page in the "genealogical traditions" section, I believe and the fact that they were dubbed "Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis" in another section and sources are shared for this. There's really no need to discuss this. As for Zekenyan-> keep in mind that he keeps posting a fringe source claiming 'Umar Walashma and his kin were of the ] which is (with all due respect) preposterous.

::: As for that genealogy that was always on this page-> I really don't know much about it... I could never find a reliable source for it either so if you want it gone; sure thing. Anyway so long as this page is left as it is now and Zekenyan doesn't keep vandalizing it with his Argobba claims-> I have no protests at all. I was asked here but Acidsnow btw... Take care everyone, ] (]) 20:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

::::Thanks for your input. The statement that was removed was unsourced and said "" (my bolding). People will query material in Misplaced Pages that looks dubious and is unsourced. So the key to anyone trying to avoid having to repeat themself is to use reliable sources, cite those sources in the article, and stick to what the sources say. As per , the claims of Somali ancestry can be used in the article by citing to the sources you mention, and by sticking to what is said therein: that the source used for the claims is regarded as problematic. Sometimes with ancient topics we can't know for sure all the facts, so we have to include speculation - but when we do include speculation, we present is as speculation rather than fact. We do consider including all claims, including minor, dubious or fringe claims, as long as such claims are supported by reliable sources, and lesser claims are given lesser weight in the article than mainstream claims, see ]. ''']''' ''']''' 10:23, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

:::::: Considering I have discussed the issue with Walashma descendants (a branch of the family migrated to Lower Jubba about 300 years ago) if they didn't identify as Somali 500 years ago, they do today. ] (]) 09:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

== Zekenyan ==

] you have been proven wrong multiple times, so please stop your disruption. ] (]) 15:38, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
:Im not disrupting wikipedia it is you. No source says Walashma are Somali but the contrary. ] (]) 21:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
::Lol, nice try but they do. ] (]) 22:06, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Why are you trolling? You know well awale abdi added the word ] (]) 07:32, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

== RfC: Ethnicity ==
{{Rfc top|There is no consensus on the question. ] 23:59, 19 August 2015 (UTC)}}
Should the ethnic background of the dynasty say "Argobba"?

=== Argobba ===
* '''Support''' - Per reliable sources ] (]) 09:54, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. This has long ended Zekenyan so I am not sure why you keep trying to override the long established consensus. Plus, the claim that they were ethnic Agrobba has already been proven fringe. I have also gone and changed the misleading header you provided. ] (])
**'''Comment'''. {{U|AcidSnow}}, would you provide reliable sources to prove that Zekenyan's proposal is a fringe theory. ] (]) 02:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
*The reference says that Walasma '''spoke''' Argobba, language is different than ethnicity, but we can say they spoke Argobba. AcidSnow, if you believe something else, you must provide a reference. ] (]) 10:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
:: These sources may make it more clear. & (Page 14 footnotes) ] (]) 03:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
{{Rfc bottom}}
What the hell, Argobba? The Sultanate of Shawa was Argobba and the rulers even had Argobba names, but the Sultanate of Shawa was conquered by Ifat in the 13th century. I have no doubt Argobba played an important role in Ifat after that, but the Walashma were not Argobba. Walashma rulers had Somali names, came from areas currently inhabited by Somalis and invaded the Argobba inhabited regions from the east. But hey, since this is Misplaced Pages let's put some BS on there because some out of context articles seem to imply it, great, fantastic. Good job guys.


== Zekenyan is vandalizing this page ==

Okay, a long while back several editors of this page came to a simple consensus as to what this page should contain and shared sources for most of their claims. We also all pointed out that Zekenyan's claims that the ethnicity of this family was "Argobba" was unfounded. Why? Simply because we all explained several times to Zekenyan; the sources he uses are fringe. They do not use actual historical evidence or genealogies or anything written from the time or even accounts from modern descendants of this family (if they exist) but are based on pure conjecture from one author by the name of Ulrich Braukamper; if you read his original work (which is what all of Zekenyan's "credible sources" source as their point of reference) you will find that he shares no actual evidence for his claims nor do any others.

The genealogies of this family are "Arabian" and tied to those of clans like the Somali Darod clan's . Most historians or acadamics concerned with this subject you will find other than those few following Braukamper's fringe lead (or who also base their idea on conjecture) will establish them as either '''Arabs''', '''Somalis''' or some sort of '''"Somali-Arab" group'''. They are not Argobbas who are a Southern Ethiopian Semitic speaking group native to the Horn of Africa who've merely been Islamized, there's no evidence whatsoever that they were Argobbas. We all came to a consensus to remain somewhat neutral with this page and mention both their claimed Arab and Somali origins and then moved on after warning Zekenyan to cease and desist his edit warring and the moment we all move on and don't bother editing this page for months he comes over and vandalizes it with his own view of how things should be. If you'd like sources for the claims I've made about the genealogies and such then please do go through this talk page as I've shared them numerous times in the past.

I think serious action needs to be taken against Zekenyan who defied consensus between various editors and did something as petty as waiting for us all to move on to suddenly vandalize this page to its current state (though I've reverted what I can). I am always willing to work with other editors within reason but Zekenyan has demonstrated time and time again that all he is interested in is editing warring (something he's been temporarily banned for) and pushing his own fringe agenda.

'''And one note to Zekenyan himself:''' Do not follow me to my talk page... With all due respect; you have a habit of somewhat harassing other editors on their talk page. If you wish to discuss this subject take it up here, please. ] (]) 19:46, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
: Misplaced Pages does not allow original research. All you have done is removed my well sourced contributions and restored unsourced material. You are welcome to post any theories on your personal blog but wikipedia is based on academic sources. ] (]) 19:51, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

---

Okay... I'm going to explain why Zekenyan's sources are "fringe" or at least otherwise unreliable by placing at least three of his sources I’ve seen him share under some scrutiny:


'''1-''' </nowiki>]


This source has numerous problems. In that many of its authors (including one who is often cited by sources claiming that the Walashama were Argobbas) contradict the statement emboldened below and demonstrate what the prevailing view of this dynasty’s origins tends to be:

"The descendants of its Walasma Dynasty established a new state in Adal. Their capital was Dakar located Southeast of Harar near Fuganbiro. The nomadic of Afar and Somali dominated the state. However, '''the leaderships were controlled by Semitic Argoba and Harari ethnic groups."

Ulrich Braukamper who is cited by this source for example merely entertains the idea that the Walashma/Ifat were possibly Argobbas in a book of his but then shortly after and uses the usual view that’s been shared on Misplaced Pages about their Qurayshi & Hashemite genealogical origins suggesting that they were Arabians. He does not then tie this dynasty to the Argobba at all but even cites sources that I have often mentioned such as ] who touch upon their ] genealogy. I was wrong about Braukamper because upon further research; it seems he didn't believe this dynasty was Argobba.

A source Braukamper often cites on the history of the Walashma (]) that this document of Zekenyan’s cites as well also contradicts the statement that this group was Argobba. Enrico Cerulli’s views on them if I recall were not honestly removed from that of Braukamper and he even acquired a historical genealogy (it’s the one mentioned and shared by another author who cites Cerulli as his source) that tied them to ], a figure who has nothing to do with Argobbas and ultimately claims an Arabian genealogy.

And then there’s finally , and his views on the Walashma were what the following text often shared on wikipedia alluded to:

"According to I.M. Lewis, the polity was governed by local dynasties consisting of Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis, who also ruled over the similarly-established Sultanate of Mogadishu in the Benadir region to the south. Adal's history from this founding period forth would be characterized by a succession of battles with neighbouring Abyssinia."-

Which is that this dynasty based on their genealogical ties to Somali-Arab genealogies like that of the were either Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis of some sort or just plain Arabs. But before Zekenyan begins to accuse me of "original research"; I'm merely sharing why this author would tie them to Somalis, I do not care if this dynasty was Arab, English, Japanese or Somali but am I merely sharing what authors like Lewis believed them to mostly be.

This document Zekeneyan’s shared is not a reliable source to be citing on wikipedia… The document as a whole is not bad at all but that one statement it makes which is relevant to this page is directly contradicted by the authors of over 3 works that it utilizes as historical sources who all hold the more accepted view that this group was somehow Arab and in the case of Lewis and seemingly Cerulli associate them more with Somalis than with Argobbas. The only author I recall in its sources who ever claimed that they were Argobbas was perhaps Professor Tadesse Tamrat who was seemingly basing this on Braukamper’s musings so that’s not reliable.



'''2-''' </nowiki>]

This is an outdated book but that’s hardly the problem… The problem is simple, really… This source is merely using Zekenyan’s third source as a source (that I will be placing under scrutiny below) for the claim it is making which in turn cites the likes of Braukamper, Tamrat and Lewis numerous times (two of whom contradict what it claims about the Walashma’s origins). Merely observe the sources shared at the bottom right.

You can’t share a source that’s just using another source you’re sharing as a source, that’s nonsensical.

'''3-''' </nowiki>]

This source doesn’t share reliable sources for how they were Argobba and actually often cites the likes of Lewis and Braukamper among others like Cerulli (for historical references) who directly contradict what it says which would be fine if it came out and shared new and relevant evidence (a medeival historical text claiming they were Argobbas? A genealogy tieing them to Argobbas?) proving they were Argobbas but it does no such thing (read it) and '''merely makes a claim''' from what can be surmised…


None of these are reliable sources and the likes of them are pretty much all Zekenyan seems to have when he claims this dynasty was Argobba. Something most authors who’ve ever touched on them from ] to I.M Lewis to Enrico Cerulli and even Braukamper; would directly oppose. And again, those are all authors his own conjectural sources cite numerous times when harking back to Horn African history.

I will say what I’ve said numerous times in the past… There is no evidence that this group was Argobba. Their genealogies (both the one tying them to the Somali saintly figure and the one tying them to Aqeel ibn Abi Talib) are not tied to Argobbas, no historical record of their time ever claims they were Argobbas or makes the claim that they spoke Argobba. All claims as to what language they spoke as will show for example; point to them having spoken Arabic with no other language unfortunately being explicitly mentioned.

All Zekenyan has are some sources making claims they don’t back up with compelling evidence whilst citing various authors who contradict what they’re claiming about the origins of the Walashma which is relevant because they hark back to these very authors for much of their inferences about historical facts.

Something is not a fact because it’s written in a book… It needs to be backed up by many of that book’s sources and/or that book needs to share evidence if it is contradicting so many of its sources on historical matters. Zekenyan’s sources don’t share reliable evidence and are riddled with the works of authors who contradict their claims. Nothing reliable here and indeed; a fringe view.

I would also like to apologize for saying Zekenyan vandalized this page. He technically didn’t and seemingly got consent from admins he convinced with his sources. It’s just that I am rather used to edit warring and underhanded behavior from him (no offense intended here btw) and to my chagrin; immediately assumed he was suddenly altering this page to be the way he wanted it to while other members were busy and not paying much attention to it. I apologize for the accusation because as it stands; he broke no rules, in truth... But many seem to have been curious as to why myself and others shrug off Zekenyan’s sources and there’s honestly a bit more but here’s a dose of why. ] (]) 00:20, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

::: At any rate, my view on this page is pretty simple; revert it back to how it was before Zekenyan's editing where both the possibility of Somali ancestry believed to be plausible by authors like Lewis & is cited and where of course the popular Arab genealogy based view is very often gone into. In this state the page ultimately seemed rather ''neutral'' and on the first paragraph didn't even directly assign an "ethnicity" to this group but merely referred to them as a "Muslim noble family". That would be best in my humble opinion. ] (]) 00:35, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
:::: I believe there's a certain conflict of interest here. Seeing that you continue to disregard sources for OR and ]. Why do you feel you are more qualified then these academics? They dont declare the dynasty a certain ethnic group without facts. They are not bloggers. Your analogy that they are tied to some saints therefore, they were somali means nothing unless the source EXPLICITLY states the walasma dynasty were somali. Here is another source that claims Argobba were taken to Shoa by Umar Walasma . Do you agree if the heading says Arab instead? ] (]) 15:50, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

::::: Stop harking back to your sources, I've shown everyone above why they're invalid. One of them is just a document where the origins of the Walashma of the Walashma are off-handedly remarked on and contradicted by most of its sources, the other is an out-dated book that references an author who again contradicts the claim it makes. If you have a source sharing actual hard evidence that they were Argobbas where things such as a genealogy tying them to the Argobba or where an actual historical document is cited where they were mentioned to have spoken Argobba then I'll agree with you here but you don't. You have nothing but invalid sources and this isn't my opinion but proven above.

::::: "They were somali means nothing unless the source EXPLICITLY states the walasma dynasty were somali"

::::: Did you read what I wrote? One there is at least one source (a book written by an author whom your own sources use as a reference) that does explicitly claim the leaders of the Ifat/Adal (the Walashma) were either Arabized Somalis or Somalized Arabs. If you have a hard time accepting this source, that's not problem. Your own sources believed Lewis was clearly a credible source, hence why they use him as a point of reference numerous times. But again, I don't care if this dynasty was Arab or Somali or even English or Japanese as I stated; this page should only be filled with valid sources that back up their claims with evidence and in that regard I'm entirely fine with mostly sharing nothing more than the Walashma's Arabian genealogical traditions and then off-handedly mentioning (via reliable sources) that some of their genealogies are tied to figures like that Somali saint.

::::: I don't care if this dynasty was Arabian or Somali nor do I want to edit this to state explicitly that they were Somali but merely share sources that do tie them to Somalis or claim they were Somalis like Lewis' works do, whilst maintaining the most accepted narrative that they had ultimately Arab genealogical traditions. My point here is simply that your claims that they were Argobba are fringe and unreliable and using '''shaky sources''' (For God's sake; one of your sources literally uses the other as a source) as you do is not going to back that claim up.

::::: I explained to everyone above why the claims you're sharing are "fringe" or otherwise unreliable. The authors they tend to cite would directly oppose what they're claiming... The idea that they were Argobbas is not at all one that's fully accepted by academics concerned with this subject and the earliest academics who pioneered and practically started the concepts of Ethiopian & Somali studies did not believe them to be Argobbas nor do most still concerned with the subject like Lee V. Casanelli or ever in their works refer to this dynasty as being Argobba or the Sultanate of Ifat being ruled by Argobbas. You trying to rename this page's first paragraph to read as "Argobba Muslim dynasty" is therefore disingenuous as this is not a fully accepted view among academics; evident by the fact that even your own sources cite numerous academics who contradict the claims they're making (Lewis, Cerulli, Braukamper, Pankhurst; none of them claimed this dynasty was Argobba). I'm not going to argue with you about your sources anymore; if you're still defending them after reading all I shared about them above then you're demonstrating a clear bias here.

::::: Keep this page the way it is now and just don't touch it would be my final suggestion for everyone concerned with this subject. I'm absolutely fine with it as it is now. However if Zekenyan wants we can create an "ethnicity" section and mention that some authors claim that they were Argobbas there. I'm willing to go for this compromise but splattering this page with information that acts as though them being Argobbas is some well-accepted fact after everything I've shared about all the authors who would oppose this view (including ones Zekenyan's own sources use as a point of reference) would merely be disingenuous. ] (]) 16:57, 22 September 2015 (UTC)



::::::: "Do you agree if the heading says Arab instead?"

::::::: Truthfully, I would prefer this, yes... If you want though as I said we can create an ethnicity section and share authors like Lewis who ties them to Somalis and then your sources (despite the problems with them that I've noted) that claim they were Argobbas then merely just share that no true ethnic origins for this dynasty are known beyond what their genealogies imply. I prefer the page as it is now but if it would appease you then we can try out this ultimately very "neutral" stance? Honestly, I have nothing against you as a person of course and am growing quite tired of us going back and forth in a hostile (but veiled-ly hostile) manner here. So if we can come to neutral ground like that where both of us can just move on and not bother with this page anymore; all the better. Or I can simply go to the genealogical traditions section right now and add your claims on the side that they were Argobbas and then we leave the rest as is? Please do consider this simple compromise so we can both move on with our lives... ] (]) 17:07, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

== Addition of Unsourced Material ==

] discuss your edits here. You are currently editing against consensus ] (]) 18:48, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
: Hilarious, you are reverting edits from a Walashma ] (]) 23:28, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
::@] Walasma was of amhara-arab background. To say his children are now Somali means nothing his descendants can be Chinese. ] (]) 13:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
:::The Walashma dynasty was not of "amhara-arab background" which is something that was previously mentioned by other users. ] (]) 00:09, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
::::They are what the source says. ] (]) 03:12, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::This is the kind of guy who dominates wiki articles these days, zealous morons with way too much free time. Adios wikipedia] (]) 23:24, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

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== SHOWA SULTANATES ==

I STATRED TO SUSPECT THE LOW REGARED THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO WORJI PEOPLE. MY SUSPECTE ON THE ISSUES DEVELOPED AFTER SOME CONCIDERATIONS TWO OPINION ON THE EARLY HISTORY OF WORJI . ONE FROM OUR PISET MERI RAS ,THOUGH ,PUT THE NATIVITIES OF WORJI BEFORE 371 B,C ..BUT THIS NARATION WITH OUT GOING FARHER TWISTED 360M DEGREE AND BEGAN TO NARRATE AS WORJI APPEARED IN THE LAND DURING 700 A.D. THE SCONDE NARRATION LINKED WITH MIGRATION OF WORJI FROM MEDINA DURING THE CONFLICT BETWEEN CLIPHTES . IF THIS IS SO I BELIVE THIS PEOPLE ARE THE ONE WHO SERVE AS SULTANATS OF YEFATE ,SHOWA AND IFATES . WHY ? THIS IS BECAUSE THIS PEOPLE WAS LEAD BY ABDUREHAMN . ABDUREHEMAN IS THE ONE THE GOVERN SPAIN . IF ABDUREHAMAN AND THE PEOPLE THAT MIGRATE WITH HIM TO SPAIN WAS ABLE TO ESTABLIS MUSLIM GOVERNMENT WHY NOT HIS RELATIVES THAT CAME TO ETHIOPIA .OTHER SUCH AS HADIA ,AREGBO ARE FILLOWERS OF THEM NOT WORJI ] (]) 11:55, 26 December 2018 (UTC)<ref><ref></ref></ref> ABREHIT BY MERIRAS

== March 2022 ==

Hello @],

I reverted your recent edit since it was disruptive and unconstructive. Somaliland is a de facto state and given that the Adal sultanate did not control parts of Somalia ''proper'' it would be misleading to label it as simply "Somalia", not to mention that going against ].

Many thanks, ] ] 00:51, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

== Connection to Yusuf Al Kawneyn (Aw Barkhadle) ==

The Walashma themselves assert that they trace their lineage from the 10th century Somali Sheikh Aw Barkhadle. They state this in the Walashma Chronicle. If that is the case should that not be the primary source for their genealogical origin? ] (]) 19:45, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

:According to the sources cited, al-Kawneyn was an Arab (from Iraq I believe). Enrico uses this to justify them being of Arab lineage, but he also points out that many of the Sultans of Ifat/Adal had Ethiopian-Semitic names. Which he believes to be of Argobba origin. If you can find any scholars stating that al-Kawneyn was a Somali, and hence the Walashma were of Somali origin you can definitely add that in ] (]) 19:35, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
::Hey, sure I could provide some references to him being a native of Somalia and of him being Somali.
::https://books.google.com/books?id=zTMOAQAAMAAJ&q=Yusuf+el+-+Kawneyn+somali
::https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1026/5/34_M.%20A.%20RIRASH%20-%20Effects%20of%20sixteenth%20century%20upheavals%20on%20the%20history%20of%20the%20horn.pdf
::https://books.google.com/books?id=uqw0DwAAQBAJ&q=Somalia+in+Transition+Since+2006+Somali+Sheikh+Yusuf+al-kowneyn+barkadle&pg=PT42
::https://books.google.com/books?id=5PEOHJOA8AQC&q=aw+barkhadle+somali
::Somalia; Wasaaradda Warfaafinta iyo Hanuuninta Dadweynaha (1972). The Writing of the Somali Language: A Great Landmark in Our Revolutionary History. Ministry of Information and National Guidance. p. 10. Aw Barkhadle, he was a native, who lived in about 1,000 years ago and is buried now in a ruined town named after him, Aw Barkhadle, which is a few miles away from Hargeisa.
:: Legendary Arab genealogy in the Horn of Africa is super common and the Walashma actually tie their lineage back to the same man that all Somali Clans claim descent from, Aqil ibn Abi Talib.
::regardless it seems Aw Barhadle was most likely a native. His other common name Abu barakat al Barbari also reinforces his native status. ] (]) 20:10, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
::Here is another source:
::https://books.google.com/books?id=J6nODwAAQBAJ&dq=aw+barkhadle+myth+of+origin+which+links+the+somali+with+the+prophet+Mohamed%27s+clan&pg=PA16 ] (]) 20:22, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
::: His background is disputed we shouldnt include that in this article if you want to state his possible Somali background then do it on his page. The references you assembled says nothing about Walasma, his ties to this dynasty is abit unclear anyway. Why make an article about Walasma a discussion about their ancestors ethnic origin? ] (]) 20:51, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
::::I’m not trying to make it about him. I’m just saying aren’t the Harar chronicles (the oldest written history of the walashma and dating from when they ruled) the best source on their ancestry.
::::Also I never said the references here mentioned Walashma. Also his ties are very clear to the Walashma as they themselves state their descent from Yusuf Barkhadle in the chronicles from Harar.
::::here’s some sources which use the Harar chronicles as a direct source:
::::Cerulli, Enrico (1926). Le popolazioni della Somalia nella tradizione storica locale. L'Accademia. Cerulli suggests that the Saint "Aw Barkhdale" (Yusuf Al Kownayn) can be associated with "Yusuf Barkatla", ancestor of Umar' Walashma, founder of the Ifat dynasty
::::https://books.google.com/books?id=J1Ipt5A9mLMC&q=aw+barkhadle+founder+of+walashma&pg=PA242
::::Nehemia Levtzion; Randall Pouwels (Mar 31, 2000). The History of Islam in Africa. Ohio University Press. p. 242. Aw Barkhadle, is the founder and ancestor of the Walashma dynasty”
::::Bader, Christian (2000). Les Yibro: Mages somali. Les juifs oubliés de la corne de l'Afrique? (in French). Harmattan. ISBN 9782738488152. Translated from French to English: The Aw Barkhadle figure, it should be noted, is among the ancestors of the rulers of the Walashma dynasty, who reigned over the Muslim state of Ifat.”
::::The article can stay as is, which is why I’m using the talk page to discuss this. ] (]) 21:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
:::::The source needs to say that both al-Kawneyn and the Walashma were of Somali origin otherwise that would be ] ] (]) 22:44, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
::::::his background been shown many times, you just hold onto Enrico one hypothesis and truth, his later work disproves it ] (]) 12:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

== Check Linked pages ==

I will gradually improve the descriptions of the reigns of the Sultans in the rulers list, please check the Sultan's pages I linked in the list for citations and dont delete my content ] (]) 13:12, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

== Sultanate of Damut ==

Has anyone heard of the Sultanate of Damut mentioned in this chapter ''Ethiopia's relations with the Muslim world'' . It's said that the Walasma migrated from Damut to ] but I can't find any other information on it which leads me to think it's dubious, and a misinterpretation of ] ] (]) 20:16, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:16, 1 August 2024

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Muslim dynasty

The Dynasty was multi-ethnic and Omer Walashma was an Arab who came from hijaz. Harari234 (talk) 10:55, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
He wasn't and next time try to gain consensus instead of blindly reverting. AcidSnow (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Am not losing consensus, but let's leave it as a Muslim dynasty. Just to get rid of the conflict were having. Harari234 (talk) 18:45, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
It was much more than that. AcidSnow (talk) 01:18, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Just leave as a Muslim Dynasty. Harari234 (talk) 21:16, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I honestly just did that, Harari234 and I think it's an adequate neutral end to all this. But Umar Walashma himself didn't come from the Hejaz, his ancestor Isma'il Al-Jaberti came from the 7ejaz (well, his son Abidrahman did) these Arab proslytizers never actually founded Somali clans but were claimed as Somali ancestors nonetheless, his genealogy (Aqeeli- the valid one) is basically a Darod clan genealogy. Midday shared a source (Fage) that explains how these proselytizers were both foreign but ancestral to Somali clans

(fabled claims) in taking native wives:

"There is no doubt that Zeila was also predominantly Somali, and al-Dimashqi, another thirteenth-century Arab writer, gives the town its Somali name Awdal (Adal), still known among the local Somali. By the fourteenth century the significance of this Somali port for the Ethiopian interior had increased so much that all the Muslim communities established along the trade routes into central and southeastern Ethiopia were commonly known in Egypt and Syria by the collective term of 'the country of Zeila'. Zeila was certainly the point of departure for the numerous Muslim communities and political units in the Ethiopian region, most of which, just like the Somali clan families of Darod and Ishaq, had persistent traditions of Arab origin."

The other genealogy which is a semi-legendary origin shared by Harari historians & in oral traditions goes to a similar proselytizer who was pretty much a well-known saint, one of his achievements being creating the proto-form for a sort of Somali-Arabic script. He impossibly claimed Hashemite (Ali, Prophet's cousin) based origins. These people are 'Arab' but also ancestral to Somali clans (claimed to be-> disproved by genetic data) and anyone claiming descent from them is essentially a Somali. But for neutrality's sake I think we both agree it should be left as "Muslim Dynasty". Everything I mentioned is responsible for why I.M Lewis and other historians viewed them as either Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis. . These aren't "Arab genealogies"-> they're Somali ones which in turn like all Somali genealogies claim Arab origins. But I sincerely hope this is the end of all discussions here. Awale-Abdi (talk) 11:07, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

70.74.238.17/Harari234 please come to the talk page once again instead of edit waring. AcidSnow (talk) 16:30, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits

Zekenyan please stop edit warring and come to the talk page. AcidSnow (talk) 07:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Where is your sources. Zekenyan (talk) 07:45, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

sources ]. Zekenyan (talk) 08:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

That claim is presented by a fringe author (Braukämper). Though, even this book states that they are foreigners to the land but simply spoke the language. Hence, not Arggobba. AcidSnow (talk) 08:05, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

You have displayed no sources. This is not the place for original research. Its comedic that you use that same "fringe" authors source in another talk page here Zekenyan (talk) 08:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Please reread the article or at least read it since you appear to not have read it at all. AcidSnow (talk) 08:12, 8 March 2015 (UTC

Another source to confirm Zekenyan (talk) 08:27, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Also Zekenyan (talk) 08:33, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

That page of the Cambridge book is talking about the inhabitance of the kingdom. I am not surprised since certain areas were inhabited by the Semites. Though, the book mentions nothing of Arggobba. Why is that? The Walshma, like all other Somali dynasties, spoke Arabic; which is also a Semtic tounge. It's even explained on this article that the dynasty did not in fact speak any Ethio-Semitic language. AcidSnow (talk) 08:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Argobba is an Ethiopian Semitic language.. Again you have provided no sources that state that they are SOMALI. Zekenyan (talk) 08:41, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I should also point out that the founder, Sultan Omar's ancestor was Saint Yusuf. In fact, Saint Yusuf is a prominent Somali religious leader. Ironically, this too is on the article. Anyway, the Ethio-Semitic has already been disproven. AcidSnow (talk) 08:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

So you do not have any sources then. Zekenyan (talk) 08:45, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I have plenty, though what's good will it do? You don't even bother to read the article, so why read something that complete crushes your claims? AcidSnow (talk) 08:48, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I may show it later though. See you later for now. AcidSnow (talk) 08:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

ok Hakuna matata Zekenyan (talk) 08:54, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

The Walashma themselves had Arab genealogies like many patriarchs in the Horn. They were ancestral to many populations in the region, including Somalis and the later Hararis. This is the first I'm hearing about the Argobba tie, as they weren't really associated with the Adal Sultanate. At any rate, given this, I think the lede should perhaps simply describe them as Muslim. Middayexpress (talk) 18:52, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

It isn't surprising that they claimed Hashimite linage since that what all Somali clans do. Ironically, the specific linage they claim is the same as many clans. As I pointed out earlier, Sultan Omar (the founder) is a descendent of Saint Yusuf; which clearly indicates that the dynasty was Somali. AcidSnow (talk) 19:11, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Ok. There was apparently a dynasty in Zeila prior to the Walashma. I'm not sure who was the founding Sultan, though. Middayexpress (talk) 22:54, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I am sorry if I sound aggressive or mad. Anyways, I would assume it might have been a Somali like the rest since Zeila is Somali Though, I read in one book that Umayyads had controlled parts of northern Somalia. Maybe they broke off and made their own? AcidSnow (talk) 23:07, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
No prob. I think it was simply latter day Barbaroi who had adopted Islam early on. They already had kingdoms centuries prior, during the Periplus era, but their newer polities were now instead sultanates. Middayexpress (talk) 23:21, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I thought they were all city-states rather than just cities. The book mentions that they were each headed by a chief. Though, I guess chief can be swept for "King". Do you have a copy of Periplus or a book that give commentary on it? AcidSnow (talk) 23:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Do you think they might have overlooked Somali history that was recorded by the other Arabs? Take a look at this: . AcidSnow (talk)
Perhaps. Here's Schoff's 1912 translation of the Periplus . Middayexpress (talk) 01:21, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Zekenyan-> there are plenty of sources on the page showing the genealogical traditions that trace them back to Somali figures such as an ancestor shared with the Darod clan which was shared by such figures as Ibn Khaldun . Hell, you should know that a Harari historian claimed they were descended from a Somali saint (Yusuf bin Ahmad Al-Kawneyn) . Enrico Cerulli also noted down this fabled origin from the Somali saint from a Harari record with I.M lewis taking note . And as I said in an edit-> I.M Lewis does refer to them as Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis & even for example touches upon their fabled connection to Yusuf/ "Aw Barkdhadle (meaning; Blessed Father) and Ethiopian historians somewhat unfamiliar with a good part of their history at best considered them Arabs such as in the case of Asma Giyorgis .

The more generally accepted and shared by most historical sources genealogy is the Aqeeli one via Isma'il al-Jabarti, the fabled Somali Darod clan ancestor whose only known descendant to have ever affected the Horn in anyway is Abdirahman bin Isma'il al-Jabarti (Darod clan founder) whom everyone associating themselves to "Jeberti/Jabarti" including the Jeberti people tie themselves to. To claim this dynasty was anything but Somali after the plethora of sources tying them to such figures is practically dishonest. Anyway, you wanted sources so I gave you some.

You will never find a legitimate source claiming they were "Argobba", Braukämper is as Acidsnow said; a fringe figure with wildly incorrect notions about a good number of things. He once claimed the Harla people were likely Ethio-Semitic only to immediately concede that he had absolutely no evidence for this claim... Awale-Abdi (talk) 06:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

P.S:

If you're searching for medieval sources using the world "Somali" you're wasting your time as the word's current use as an ethnic designation is relatively a new phenomenon (only ever really used in the Middle Ages in a hymn issued under the orders of Yeshaq I to describe the Ifat Sultan's troops). Medieval sources describe Somalis mostly either via their clan designations (these genealogies mostly tracing back to Arabians) such as with the overwhelming majority of the Adal Sultanate's forces in the Conquest of Abyssinia or as "Barbara" (or some such variant of the word) , a term used by the Islamic-Arab world on Somalis with a call back to the old "Barbaroi" term used by the ancient Greeks & Romans on the mostly pastoral nomadic tribes inhabiting Northeastern Sudan, the Danakil and then being the progenitors of port-towns/ city-states of sorts in northern Somalia .

Also on a random side note: the Walashma practiced agnatic seniority succession which is also practiced by some Somali royal houses to this day, i.e. the last 4 ] Boqors have been brothers or nephews of the previous Boqor. This is not at all an Arab or Abyssinian (or to my knowledge; Argobba) practice. Awale-Abdi (talk) 06:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your help Awale-Abdi. AcidSnow (talk) 01:17, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

No prob. :-) Awale-Abdi (talk) 04:53, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

"Multi-ethnic" Makes little sense

This wasn't a dynasty like the Muzaffar in Mogadishu who for example were "Jointly Arab & Somali rulers" with the ruler being a "Barbara" (Somali) for example in 14th Century CE when Ibn Battuta visited but definitely having some Arab ruling predecessors to my knowledge. They weren't also a family made up of several groups. F.e. one leader was not Somali and then one a generation later was "Arab" & another was "Harari" & another was so and so. It's an inaccurate title but I truly appreciate the compromise from the editor who made it instead of "all out warring".

But I'll state this very simply... There are but two genealogies for this group and various historical opinions on them from Ethiopian & Somali studies based historians. They are seen often as either Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis citing the Arab influence in their genealogies (claiming Arabian ancestors as many Somalis do) but then the Somali influence here is clear whereby for example individuals they claimed were for all extents and purposes beyond their grandiose and impossible (claiming descent from Ali, the Prophet's cousin for example) were "Somali", Aw Barkhadle for example was a speaker of Somali, devising a sort of writing form for it Arabic where people could easily learn to read Arabic, this evolved into a sort of Somalo-Arabic script. But he is a legendary ancestor and couldn't have been their ancestor despite oral traditions & Harari records affirming that he is . The more accepted origin is the one tying them to the Darod clan and to Aqeel Ibn Abi Talib, this is the most repeated origin and is even shared by Ibn Khaldun. To consider this dynasty "Arab" is to consider all Somalis or all Darods "Arab" like them as all Somalis share in this form of genealogy and one of the genealogies is even directly shared with a Somali clan (the more accepted one, might I add).

If you're using their genealogies as proof of their "Arab-ness" then imho you must do go onto the Somali people page and add the text 'An Arab people' and also add "Multi-ethnic" to every single ruling dynasty in Somalia as there's no genealogical tradition difference (in that they all claim Arab ancestors) between all of them and this dynasty (even the ones with yet living Somali descendants to this day) which clearly ties itself to Somali figures who in turn claim Arab origins and married native women whether ancestral or saintly. Their genealogy is "Arab" but only via Somalis and all Somalis have such genealogies. Otherwise I appreciate the compromise from the editor who made such an edit and invite him or her to a discussion here. If you want to add the title "A Muslim dynasty of either Arabized Somalis or Somalized Arab origins"-> I'm seriously willing for such a compromise if it will end constant warring over this (people claiming they're Argobba one day and then Arabs, it is getting tedious). I already made such an edit for neutrality's sake while we have a discussion here. Regards, Awale-Abdi (talk) 07:08, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

To add to the above just a little bit-> these genealogies have been proven to be fake for most Somalis via genetic data. I.e. the majority of male Somalis are carriers of either E-V32 or in some more westerly regions of Greater Somalia; T-M184, these are both obviously not Arabian Y-DNA markers. (An explanation of haplogroups for more layman readers) Some Somalis and indeed various Horn populations carry J-M267/ J1 which is a marker with subclades common among Arabians however the J1 presence in the Horn does not fit with Arabians, it has more diversity in the Horn and looks more like a bottle-neck in Arabia-> and the marker is rare among Somalis. Well well over a hundred ethnic Somali males from all over Greater-Somalia tested for their Y-DNA mostly come out with E-V32, a marker shared with fellow Cushitic speakers like Oromos and T-M184 is shared with virtually all Horn populations who speak Ethiopian Semitic or Cushitic languages. In terms of autosomal DNA it's been well-established for years no that Somalis show no real Arab ancestry at all. They have a gross amount of West Asian ("Middle Eastern") ancestry but it's quite ancient as even sources shared on this site point out on the Somalis page.

Here are various peer-reviewed papers on population genetics (inarguable data) touching upon Somali-Horn Y-DNA & mtDNA data and corroborating my statements: , , , , , ,

Peer-reviewed paper for admixture/ Autosomal DNA (a representation of the actual ancestry in groups): , , , ,


I'm adding this because one member came onto my page trying to argue that Somalis definitely have Arab ancestry citing how we "joined the Arab League" which is a pointless thing to bring up as we joined it for economic and political reasons/ motivations that it has barely even satisfied over the last few decades with some Somalis even wondering why we're still a member. Whilst the cultural, historical, religious and trade connections between us and Arabians are sacrosanct and cannot be denied-> we are not at all "An Arab people", genetically, linguistically (we are native Cushitic speakers-> and Amhara people have more Semitic speaking ancestry than we ever will) and so forth; we are not "Arab" at all. These genealogies are clearly as I.M Lewis once mused- :

"According to the British anthropologist and Somali Studies veteran I.M. Lewis, while the traditions of descent from noble Arab families related to Muhammad are most probably expressions of the importance of Islam in Somali society"

- not real-> the genetic data that none of us clearly have any Arab ancestors except for recent outliers (people with Arab grandmothers or one Arab parent or great grandparent etc.) is entirely conclusive. Somalis from all over North-Central Somalia, Ethiopia and even Kenya have been tested-> none show a hint of Arabian origins or ancestry. But anyway, this is not a forum and I'm not here to share opinions-> merely pointing out that if one wants to claim these genealogies are legitimate and real Arabs mixed with native Somalis back in the Middle Ages; the genetic data disproves you.

So please refrain from even trying to argue that these genealogies are real and that any Somali or Horn population is actually descended from Hashemites. These figures were either Somalis to begin with (Barkhadle was more or less) or just never ancestral to anyone at all and were clearly just claimed as such for religious reason-> anyone with a connection to them is duly Somali (the only people who claim "descent" from them).

Arguing that a genealogy traces to Arabs for example when it does that via the ancestors of Somali clans (The Aqeeli-Jeberti genealogy is basically a Darod associated genealogy) is pointless because with this logic arguing that they were Arab leaves you with the argument that all Somalis share in such ancestry/ you're saying all Somalis (or ones of said clan) are "Arab" if you get my point. <- it's a fallacy and just leaving it at "Somali" is enough. Awale-Abdi (talk) 14:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I didnt "run away" from discussion. It seems your using WP:SYNTH in your arguments. The IP user is wrong to say multi ethinic. So lets get this straight. My source say Argobba yours says somalized arab or arabisized somali. Your source seems weaker. It generalizes the ethnic background by estimating that It was Arabs or Somalis. FYI Arogbba means Arabs have entered, its a reference to them immigrating to the horn many years ago. Zekenyan (talk) 19:42, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
It is indeed quite common for folks unfamiliar with Horn populations to attribute their non-African affinities to Arabian ancestry. This confusion stems at least in part from the Horn groups themselves, and specifically their traditions of descent. Like the other League of Arab States members, Somalia is in the Arab League for more than just political and economic reasons. It has been part and parcel of the Arab world for centuries. Traditionally, Hararis and many other Afro-Asiatic populations in the Horn are similarly socioculturally oriented. The Arab world itself for the most part isn't really "Arab"; most populations in it don't actually descend from the original Arabic language speakers. It instead consists of various Afro-Asiatic populations with varying degrees of Arabian cultural and linguistic affiliations. That said, genetics, linguistics and some cultural aspects suggest that most of the non-African affinities in the Horn today originate instead with the first Afro-Asiatic speaking settlers in the region. In other words, that's the ancestry, language and culture of the first Somali, Afar, Harari, Beja, Amhara etc. themselves. Hodgson et al. (2014) articulate this quite well in their study, wherein they identify a new non-African inferred ancestral component, which they dub the "Ethio-Somali". They estimate that ethnic Somalis, Afar, Tigre, Amhara, etc. trace the majority of their ancestry to this "Ethio-Somali" genetic component, and suggest that it is the legacy of the first Afro-Asiatic speaking settlers in the Horn. For reasons I shall try and elaborate on at another time, this is almost certainly true. Recent archaeological excavations in northern Somali territory have yielded old artefacts, including human figurines complete with countenances. These artefacts, and especially their likenesses, all but confirm the existence of an ancient Afro-Asiatic civilization in the area; one that was closely related to the Afro-Asiatic civilization in Predynastic and Dynastic Egypt and distinct from those of Bantu/Nilotic populations. Middayexpress (talk) 20:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Zekenyan: Abdulkader Saleh Mohammad is mistaken about the Walashma speaking Argobba. The 19th century Ethiopian historian Asma Giyorgis indicates that the Walashma instead spoke Arabic . Middayexpress (talk) 20:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The Argobbas are Arabs they are descendants of the Hijra to Abyssinia. The Arabisized Somali source does not even mention Walashma whereas my source mentions Walashma by name. As the user Awale has confirmed there is no source that will mention Somalis. Its quite clear my source stands as the most reliable. I dont think hypothesis and other Wp:synthis arguments is proper for this establishment. Do you have counter sources or not? here is a source that has an indepth history on argobba and mentions walasma. "'The Emperors recognized the prominent Walasma family known for their good deeds, as the overlords of Yifat and gave them authority to administrate"'on page 175 Zekenyan (talk) 20:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Argobbas are ordinary Ethiosemitic speaking populations. They just happen to primarily adhere to Sunni Islam instead of Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity. There are also no historical scholars who indicate that the Walashma spoke Argobba. Middayexpress (talk) 17:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@70.74 thats original research. Provide sources. Zekenyan (talk) 22:39, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

That statement about Argobbas practically warrants a ban... Argobbas are Southern Ethiopian Semitic speaking people (Habeshas), their closest linguistic relatives are the Amhara people who have had their autosomal DNA, Y-DNA & mtDNA sampled-> they do not come out with any "Arab" ancestry other than some very ancient ancestry likely acquired form shifting to South-Semitic very likely 3,000 years ago .

The likelihood that Argobbas will come out grossly distinct from Amharas especially given the physical similarities between the two groups is very low. No one in the Horn is "Arab"-> these genealogies and claimed origins tying themselves to Arabs are fake. But that's what I'm starting to realize about our posters like you Zekenyan; you seem quite unaware of the actual history of the Horn especially in a genetic sense-> if you were aware you'd never make claims like "Argobbas are Arab". Note: Ethiopian Semitic is South Semitic-> Arabic is Central Semitic and more related to Aramaic or Hebrew than to Argobba so don't even try to make linguistic arguments utilizing Argobbas speaking Semitic as a platform. The majority of the ancestry in Ethio-Semites like Tigrinyas & Amharas who've been sampled for their genetic data proves "Cushitic" with some Omotic admixture (look at the plethora of papers I shared). Awale-Abdi (talk) 08:07, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll re-iterate this one last time for people... All Somalis have Arab genealogies, one of the two genealogies the Walashma have is associated clearly with a Somali clan (the Aqeeli one-> I shared plenty of sources and I'm not going to rummage through this very page or others for the same links), this is a Somali genealogy and anyone who claims is it is claiming Somali origins-> they're genuinely claiming Arab origins because as I and Midday have pointed it out-> these Arab genealogies are mostly entirely fake & completely disproven in a genetic sense.

The other ties itself to a Somali saint who claimed a lofty and completely impossible Hashemites tied genealogy (most Somalis do-> Isaaq, Darood-> both tie themselves to Hashemites) and I don't think I need to describe how impossible him being a descendant of Ali (Prophet's cousin) is but anyway, he's a well-known figure who even paved the way for the usage of a sort Somali-Arabic script. Harari historians, oral traditions and such tie him to them as their ancestor again clearly showing a Somali origin as per the perspective of other ethnic groups no less (I've shared enough sources on this page about this origin). But this origin is legendary. He isn't their ancestor as even this page tells you... Aw Barkhadle was born around the same century as the Walashma's founder yet the Harari record genealogy shared by Enrico Cerulli and noted by I.M Lewis would have us believe Barkhadle is 'Umar's ancestor via 5 generations. And for example "The History of the Walashma" mentions him as their ancestor but it's considered a semi-legendary piece because it even claims 'Umar (founder of the dynasty) lived to be over 100 years old and reigned for 80 of those years... Barkhadle isn't their ancestor. Some of you like this one editor who followed me to my page don't even seem to know this. But so many sources tying them to a Somali figure along with the other genealogy only solidifies their origins... The origins of most of their soldiers (Somali) and such is only icing on the cake. Unless we have more rounds of "They were Argobba" nonsense, I'm done for now. Awale-Abdi (talk) 08:07, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

i guess you dont have any sources except WP:SYNTH arguments. Zekenyan (talk) 08:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

What? I said clearly that I won't share my sources all over again because they're shared already all over the page (you can't read?) but you know what I'll share them again:

Here are various peer-reviewed papers on population genetics (inarguable data) touching upon Somali-Horn Y-DNA & mtDNA data and corroborating my statements: , , , , , ,

Peer-reviewed paper for admixture/ Autosomal DNA (a representation of the actual ancestry in groups): , , , ,

Here are many historical sources I've shared on their genealogies:

, , ,

You and I have been at this for a while and you've read my posts, I imagine. Did you really think I lacked sources for the things I was saying? Really? All the sources I've shared... Habeshas are not Arab-> the genetic data on this is conclusive, if you think otherwise... I dunno what to say really. Awale-Abdi (talk) 08:37, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I meant bring forth sources that say walashma family were Somali without WP:SYNTH. Im not here to talk about genetics and DNA. I am trying to explain to you that academics view Walashma as Argobba. Zekenyan (talk) 08:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I did... Do you know who the saint I keep talking about is? Can you even read, man? Or did you even check my sources. The "Somalized Arab" & "Arabized Somali" sentence is not even mine but I.M Lewis' : (I already shared this... God's sake...)

Aw Barkhadle who is noted as their ancestor in all these sources is basically a Somali saint/ historical figure as even wiki notes: , , ,

One of those links also shows you the Aqeeli-Jaberti origin which is basically a Darod clan genealogy ... Are you just not reading the sources I've shared? Or...? The fact that these "Arab genealogies" tie them to Somali figures (like Barkhadle) is concrete. (you have your sources) Not even arguable. Now, sources tying them to Argobba genealogies and historical figures and a book perhaps using the terms "Argobbized Arabs or Arabized Argobbas" or the word Argobba itself to describe them? Not fringe stuff like Braukamper either who didn't even say Argobba but "Ethio-Semitic". Awale-Abdi (talk) 08:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

You simply cant "tie saints" and come to a conclusion. Did you read the synth policy? The lewis source is not mentioning Walashma directly. I dont see the problem in adding it in the body paragraph or in the Adal articles but this article is exclusively about Walashma. We must go by what the sources say. Your asking for my sources to be disregarded but you cant find a single source that says Walasma were a somali family. Instead your coming with your own conclusion that they must of been because Somalis have Arab ties. Original research cant be used on wikipedia. Zekenyan (talk) 09:01, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Listen, when a genealogy says clearly that the ancestor of a clan is a Somali or a Somali saint or a Somali clan ancestor then it's pretty conclusive (nothing Synth about this). All those sources pretty much say they were Somali by giving them Somali genealogies (or a genealogy if you want me to use only one source and avoid synth), unless you lack simple comprehension skills and I'm not even trying to be offensive here.

And finally; not one source EVER claims they were Argobba, not one. And you haven't shared any other than Braukamper who admits he has no proof for most of his musings and never even says they were Argobba but more broadly Southern Ethiopian Semitic IIRC. You have no evidence whatsoever. I think everyone here from Midday to me to even Harari23 who says they're Arabs finds your Argobba argument completely nonsensical. I'm not going to even entertain this.

Also there is a source that says they were Somalis (you really don't read my sources do you? I read yours...): <- Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis, there (he's counting the Ifat-Adal rulers in that consensus). God's sake... There, that's ONE source. Awale-Abdi (talk) 09:06, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I read the source it doesnt mention Walashma. Zekenyan (talk) 09:22, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

^ He says rulers of Zeila and such (at a time when they ruled)-> he's saying all the medieval dynasties of that time (of the areas he described) like the Muzaffar of Mogadishu (who were legitimately Arab + Somali/ joint rulers) & the Adal, even wiki cites him in the Adal & Ifat pages as referring to dynasties like the Walashma which he is. Keep reading too, he touches upon the Adal and such and even mentions the genealogical connections between them and the saint.

From wiki alone:

"According to I.M. Lewis, the polity was governed by local dynasties consisting of Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis, who also ruled over the similarly-established Sultanate of Mogadishu in the Benadir region to the south. Adal's history from this founding period forth would be characterized by a succession of battles with neighbouring Abyssinia." <- has been on wiki for years (long before even I began editing here)

Source: (he clearly refers to the Adal here which was ruled by the Walashma)

For the record I'm open to a discussion here but if you keep saying they're "Argobba"... It's just difficult to take seriously. There's no proof (synth or otherwise) except for one author (Braukamper) who admits he has no proof (and he never points toward Argobba but if I recall correctly speaks of Ethio-Semites in general) for many of his musings like the Harla being Ethio-Semitic (who knows what they were) & another who also claims the Hadiya Sultanate was Ethio-Semitic (he never says Argobba but just broadly Ethio-Semitic), they're both fringe and I'm not disregarding them because they're your sources and I disagree with you but because they both disprove themselves. If you really want a consensus here stop making statements like "Argobbas are Arab"-> they're a Southern Ethiopian Semitic people who don't even speak Arabic as their mother tongue.Awale-Abdi (talk) 09:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll say this one last time... Your source: is based on the work of Braukamper who has no concrete proof for any claims he makes and he is indeed a fringe author. List them as 'Arab' or simply 'Muslim' if you want but if you go around sharing a source we've all pointed out to you (including a veteran editor here like Middayexpress) to be fringe-> you will be reported. I've given you sources for them being Somali or Somalized Arabs & Arabized Somalis and some members even have okay arguments that they were just Middle Eastern Arabs-> if you have qualms with all that; it's your problem. Don't vandalize this page. Awale-Abdi (talk) 09:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I've edited the page to just say "Muslim Dynasty" (something Harari234 suggested). The page itself contains ample sources from years ago pointing out the Somali origins of the dynasty (f.e. via their genealogies) or their Somalized-Arab or Arabized-Somali origin. A lot of warring has been sparked by just adding simple text like "Somali Muslim dynasty" or "Arab Muslim dynasty" or "Somalized Arab or Arabized Somali dynasty" (even if all three have ample proof and sources as I've shared) so really-> before this page goes wild over more warring lets just leave it at "Muslim Dynasty" and move on with our lives... This means no more further vandalizing from you, Zekenyan. There used to be a member like you who argued that they were Ethiopian Semitic (for which there is no actual proof) and edit warred for his position; he got banned. Don't follow in his footsteps. Awale-Abdi (talk) 10:19, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

That was Baboon43. He actually turned out be an alright, good faith editor, just with an initial difference in opinion. He was blocked for something else related to the Al-Ahbash organization. After actually reading the historical documents on Ifat, Adal and the Walashma, Baboon43 also eventually realized that the modern writers are all over the place with regard to these polities, and that their assertions are often essentially speculative (the Argobba claims are an excellent example of this); so it's ultimately best to rely instead wherever possible on the actual medieval or early modern literature (i.e. Al-Maqrizi, Al-Umari and Asma Giyorgis, etc). Middayexpress (talk) 17:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Zekenyan: Per both Al-Maqrizi and the Walashma's own chronicle, the Walashma had a Quraysh lineage (like many Somali, Harari, Afar, etc. Muslim clans). Maqrizi also indicates that the forefathers of 'Umar Walashma first settled in the Zeila-controlled Jabarta region and from there later moved into the hinterland to occupy Ifat as well : "Both Maqrizi and the chronicle of the Walasma dynasty give a Quraysh or Hashimite origin for 'Umar Walasma. According to Maqrizi, the ancestors of 'Umar Walasma first settled in Jabara (or Jabarta) a region which he says belonged to Zeila; they gradually moved further inland and occupied Ifat also. But Maqrizi gives us no information on the rulers before 'Umar Walasma; nor does the chronicle of the Walasma dynasty, despite the long genealogy it gives for 'Umar, who in fact assumes the characteristics of a legendary figure." Middayexpress (talk) 17:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I have two sources its not just Braukamper one . Your both repeating the samething using Saint to tie Somali and other ethnic groups. The academics did not come to that conclusion. Zekenyan (talk) 17:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

They did. Please read instead of making things up. Abdi is simplifying it for you. AcidSnow (talk) 18:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

ʿUmar DunyaHuz "Walashma" was an ethnic Somali

There is a bold statement in the article that ʿUmar DunyaHuz "Walashma" was an ethnic Somali. This statement is not sourced. When I take a look in sources I'm not seeing the evidence that he was a Somali. Indeed, some sources put him as coming from a Quraysh or Hashemite background. , , , , . I'm probably missing something obvious, but that statement either needs a reliable source or should be removed from the article. SilkTork 17:07, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

The entire establishment section is original research. I dont think any editors would oppose the removal. Zekenyan (talk) 07:48, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't know if it is original research, but there are no sources for it, and the sources I have read disagree with it. Indeed, the sourced information in the next section disagrees with it, so it is possible that it is original research. Under our core policy of verifiability, I have removed the material per WP:UNSOURCED. The material should not now be replaced unless or until properly sourced. I currently have this article watchlisted, so I will be able to respond to queries. SilkTork 17:28, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps Ingoman can provide clarification here, as he originally noted the lineage. He has some knowledge on the early lineage systems in the area. Middayexpress (talk) 17:51, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The whole "he was an ethnic Somali" point is pretty simple really and I don't quite grasp why people need it repeated again and again. It's simple... He and his line have two genealogies. The first one traces back to a sort of old Somali patriarchal figure named Yusuf bin Ahmad Al-Kawneyn. It's shared in "The History of the Walashma" and is where their Hasani nisba/ lineage (Hassan as in the son of Ali who was the cousin of the Prophet-> so a Hashemite lineage indeed) comes from, Harari historians also share it & it's known in oral traditions . But it's basically a semi-legendary genealogy despite Enrico Cerulli also taking note of it in Harar where there was a record of it and this was noted by I.M Lewis .
The other genealogy goes straight to Isma'il Al-Jaberti-> patriarch/ ancestor to the Darod clan, this is their Aqeeli nisba (tracing back to Aqeeel Ibn Abi Talib), it's the most shared genealogy and was even shared by Ibn Khaldun , it's also the more legitimate one according to most historians who've studied them. It's because of these clearly Somali-Arab (all Somalis in truth claim Arabian ancestors/ patriarchs such as with the Isaaq & Darod: both these tribes also claim Qurayshitic origins btw) that I.M Lewis for example dubs them "Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis". That's really it, there's nothing "original research" about this and I've shared sources for these genealogies and the fact for example that the first one traces back to the Saint. Also, it doesn't really say anywhere on this page that he was "an ethnic Somali" and we even re-iterated this page's opening text to simply & neutrally say "Muslim Dynasty" so I don't see the point in even arguing over this anymore. The Somali nature of their genealogies is simply noted on the page in the "genealogical traditions" section, I believe and the fact that they were dubbed "Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis" in another section and sources are shared for this. There's really no need to discuss this. As for Zekenyan-> keep in mind that he keeps posting a fringe source claiming 'Umar Walashma and his kin were of the Argobba people which is (with all due respect) preposterous.
As for that genealogy that was always on this page-> I really don't know much about it... I could never find a reliable source for it either so if you want it gone; sure thing. Anyway so long as this page is left as it is now and Zekenyan doesn't keep vandalizing it with his Argobba claims-> I have no protests at all. I was asked here but Acidsnow btw... Take care everyone, Awale-Abdi (talk) 20:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. The statement that was removed was unsourced and said "The Walashma dynasty was founded by Sulṭān ʿUmar DunyaHuz "Walashma", who was an ethnic Somali" (my bolding). People will query material in Misplaced Pages that looks dubious and is unsourced. So the key to anyone trying to avoid having to repeat themself is to use reliable sources, cite those sources in the article, and stick to what the sources say. As per our discussion on my talkpage, the claims of Somali ancestry can be used in the article by citing to the sources you mention, and by sticking to what is said therein: that the source used for the claims is regarded as problematic. Sometimes with ancient topics we can't know for sure all the facts, so we have to include speculation - but when we do include speculation, we present is as speculation rather than fact. We do consider including all claims, including minor, dubious or fringe claims, as long as such claims are supported by reliable sources, and lesser claims are given lesser weight in the article than mainstream claims, see Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories. SilkTork 10:23, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Considering I have discussed the issue with Walashma descendants (a branch of the family migrated to Lower Jubba about 300 years ago) if they didn't identify as Somali 500 years ago, they do today. Ingoman (talk) 09:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Zekenyan

Zekenyan you have been proven wrong multiple times, so please stop your disruption. AcidSnow (talk) 15:38, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Im not disrupting wikipedia it is you. No source says Walashma are Somali but the contrary. Zekenyan (talk) 21:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Lol, nice try but they do. AcidSnow (talk) 22:06, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Why are you trolling? You know well awale abdi added the word Zekenyan (talk) 07:32, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Ethnicity

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is no consensus on the question. AlbinoFerret 23:59, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Should the ethnic background of the dynasty say "Argobba"?

Argobba

  • Support - Per reliable sources Zekenyan (talk) 09:54, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This has long ended Zekenyan so I am not sure why you keep trying to override the long established consensus. Plus, the claim that they were ethnic Agrobba has already been proven fringe. I have also gone and changed the misleading header you provided. AcidSnow (talk)
  • The reference says that Walasma spoke Argobba, language is different than ethnicity, but we can say they spoke Argobba. AcidSnow, if you believe something else, you must provide a reference. Spumuq (talq) 10:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
These sources may make it more clear. & (Page 14 footnotes) Zekenyan (talk) 03:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What the hell, Argobba? The Sultanate of Shawa was Argobba and the rulers even had Argobba names, but the Sultanate of Shawa was conquered by Ifat in the 13th century. I have no doubt Argobba played an important role in Ifat after that, but the Walashma were not Argobba. Walashma rulers had Somali names, came from areas currently inhabited by Somalis and invaded the Argobba inhabited regions from the east. But hey, since this is Misplaced Pages let's put some BS on there because some out of context articles seem to imply it, great, fantastic. Good job guys.


Zekenyan is vandalizing this page

Okay, a long while back several editors of this page came to a simple consensus as to what this page should contain and shared sources for most of their claims. We also all pointed out that Zekenyan's claims that the ethnicity of this family was "Argobba" was unfounded. Why? Simply because we all explained several times to Zekenyan; the sources he uses are fringe. They do not use actual historical evidence or genealogies or anything written from the time or even accounts from modern descendants of this family (if they exist) but are based on pure conjecture from one author by the name of Ulrich Braukamper; if you read his original work (which is what all of Zekenyan's "credible sources" source as their point of reference) you will find that he shares no actual evidence for his claims nor do any others.

The genealogies of this family are "Arabian" and tied to those of clans like the Somali Darod clan's Jaberti-Aqeeli supposed origins. Most historians or acadamics concerned with this subject you will find other than those few following Braukamper's fringe lead (or who also base their idea on conjecture) will establish them as either Arabs, Somalis or some sort of "Somali-Arab" group. They are not Argobbas who are a Southern Ethiopian Semitic speaking group native to the Horn of Africa who've merely been Islamized, there's no evidence whatsoever that they were Argobbas. We all came to a consensus to remain somewhat neutral with this page and mention both their claimed Arab and Somali origins and then moved on after warning Zekenyan to cease and desist his edit warring and the moment we all move on and don't bother editing this page for months he comes over and vandalizes it with his own view of how things should be. If you'd like sources for the claims I've made about the genealogies and such then please do go through this talk page as I've shared them numerous times in the past.

I think serious action needs to be taken against Zekenyan who defied consensus between various editors and did something as petty as waiting for us all to move on to suddenly vandalize this page to its current state (though I've reverted what I can). I am always willing to work with other editors within reason but Zekenyan has demonstrated time and time again that all he is interested in is editing warring (something he's been temporarily banned for) and pushing his own fringe agenda.

And one note to Zekenyan himself: Do not follow me to my talk page... With all due respect; you have a habit of somewhat harassing other editors on their talk page. If you wish to discuss this subject take it up here, please. Awale-Abdi (talk) 19:46, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not allow original research. All you have done is removed my well sourced contributions and restored unsourced material. You are welcome to post any theories on your personal blog but wikipedia is based on academic sources. Zekenyan (talk) 19:51, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

---

Okay... I'm going to explain why Zekenyan's sources are "fringe" or at least otherwise unreliable by placing at least three of his sources I’ve seen him share under some scrutiny:


1-


This source has numerous problems. In that many of its authors (including one who is often cited by sources claiming that the Walashama were Argobbas) contradict the statement emboldened below and demonstrate what the prevailing view of this dynasty’s origins tends to be:

"The descendants of its Walasma Dynasty established a new state in Adal. Their capital was Dakar located Southeast of Harar near Fuganbiro. The nomadic of Afar and Somali dominated the state. However, the leaderships were controlled by Semitic Argoba and Harari ethnic groups."

Ulrich Braukamper who is cited by this source for example merely entertains the idea that the Walashma/Ifat were possibly Argobbas here in a book of his but then shortly after does not hold to this view and uses the usual view that’s been shared on Misplaced Pages about their Qurayshi & Hashemite genealogical origins suggesting that they were Arabians. He does not then tie this dynasty to the Argobba at all but even cites sources that I have often mentioned such as Ibn Khaldun who touch upon their Aqeeli genealogy. I was wrong about Braukamper because upon further research; it seems he didn't believe this dynasty was Argobba.

A source Braukamper often cites on the history of the Walashma (Enrico Cerulli) that this document of Zekenyan’s cites as well also contradicts the statement that this group was Argobba. Enrico Cerulli’s views on them if I recall were not honestly removed from that of Braukamper and he even acquired a historical genealogy (it’s the one mentioned here and shared here by another author who cites Cerulli as his source) that tied them to this Somali saintly figure as their ancestor, a figure who has nothing to do with Argobbas and ultimately claims an Arabian genealogy.

And then there’s finally I.M Lewis, and his views on the Walashma were what the following text often shared on wikipedia alluded to:

"According to I.M. Lewis, the polity was governed by local dynasties consisting of Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis, who also ruled over the similarly-established Sultanate of Mogadishu in the Benadir region to the south. Adal's history from this founding period forth would be characterized by a succession of battles with neighbouring Abyssinia."- source for what's in this text

Which is that this dynasty based on their genealogical ties to Somali-Arab genealogies like that of the Darod’s Aqeeli based one were either Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somalis of some sort or just plain Arabs. But before Zekenyan begins to accuse me of "original research"; I'm merely sharing why this author would tie them to Somalis, I do not care if this dynasty was Arab, English, Japanese or Somali but am I merely sharing what authors like Lewis believed them to mostly be.

This document Zekeneyan’s shared is not a reliable source to be citing on wikipedia… The document as a whole is not bad at all but that one statement it makes which is relevant to this page is directly contradicted by the authors of over 3 works that it utilizes as historical sources who all hold the more accepted view that this group was somehow Arab and in the case of Lewis and seemingly Cerulli associate them more with Somalis than with Argobbas. The only author I recall in its sources who ever claimed that they were Argobbas was perhaps Professor Tadesse Tamrat who was seemingly basing this on Braukamper’s musings so that’s not reliable.


2-

This is an outdated book but that’s hardly the problem… The problem is simple, really… This source is merely using Zekenyan’s third source as a source (that I will be placing under scrutiny below) for the claim it is making which in turn cites the likes of Braukamper, Tamrat and Lewis numerous times (two of whom contradict what it claims about the Walashma’s origins). Merely observe the sources shared at the bottom right.

You can’t share a source that’s just using another source you’re sharing as a source, that’s nonsensical.

3-

This source doesn’t share reliable sources for how they were Argobba and actually often cites the likes of Lewis and Braukamper among others like Cerulli (for historical references) who directly contradict what it says which would be fine if it came out and shared new and relevant evidence (a medeival historical text claiming they were Argobbas? A genealogy tieing them to Argobbas?) proving they were Argobbas but it does no such thing (read it) and merely makes a claim from what can be surmised…


None of these are reliable sources and the likes of them are pretty much all Zekenyan seems to have when he claims this dynasty was Argobba. Something most authors who’ve ever touched on them from Richard Pankhurst to I.M Lewis to Enrico Cerulli and even Braukamper; would directly oppose. And again, those are all authors his own conjectural sources cite numerous times when harking back to Horn African history.

I will say what I’ve said numerous times in the past… There is no evidence that this group was Argobba. Their genealogies (both the one tying them to the Somali saintly figure and the one tying them to Aqeel ibn Abi Talib) are not tied to Argobbas, no historical record of their time ever claims they were Argobbas or makes the claim that they spoke Argobba. All claims as to what language they spoke as this source will show for example; point to them having spoken Arabic with no other language unfortunately being explicitly mentioned.

All Zekenyan has are some sources making claims they don’t back up with compelling evidence whilst citing various authors who contradict what they’re claiming about the origins of the Walashma which is relevant because they hark back to these very authors for much of their inferences about historical facts.

Something is not a fact because it’s written in a book… It needs to be backed up by many of that book’s sources and/or that book needs to share evidence if it is contradicting so many of its sources on historical matters. Zekenyan’s sources don’t share reliable evidence and are riddled with the works of authors who contradict their claims. Nothing reliable here and indeed; a fringe view.

I would also like to apologize for saying Zekenyan vandalized this page. He technically didn’t and seemingly got consent from admins he convinced with his sources. It’s just that I am rather used to edit warring and underhanded behavior from him (no offense intended here btw) and to my chagrin; immediately assumed he was suddenly altering this page to be the way he wanted it to while other members were busy and not paying much attention to it. I apologize for the accusation because as it stands; he broke no rules, in truth... But many seem to have been curious as to why myself and others shrug off Zekenyan’s sources and there’s honestly a bit more but here’s a dose of why. Awale-Abdi (talk) 00:20, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

At any rate, my view on this page is pretty simple; revert it back to how it was before Zekenyan's editing where both the possibility of Somali ancestry believed to be plausible by authors like Lewis & Cassanelli is cited and where of course the popular Arab genealogy based view is very often gone into. In this state the page ultimately seemed rather neutral and on the first paragraph didn't even directly assign an "ethnicity" to this group but merely referred to them as a "Muslim noble family". That would be best in my humble opinion. Awale-Abdi (talk) 00:35, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
I believe there's a certain conflict of interest here. Seeing that you continue to disregard sources for OR and wp:synth. Why do you feel you are more qualified then these academics? They dont declare the dynasty a certain ethnic group without facts. They are not bloggers. Your analogy that they are tied to some saints therefore, they were somali means nothing unless the source EXPLICITLY states the walasma dynasty were somali. Here is another source that claims Argobba were taken to Shoa by Umar Walasma . Do you agree if the heading says Arab instead? Zekenyan (talk) 15:50, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Stop harking back to your sources, I've shown everyone above why they're invalid. One of them is just a document where the origins of the Walashma of the Walashma are off-handedly remarked on and contradicted by most of its sources, the other is an out-dated book that references an author who again contradicts the claim it makes. If you have a source sharing actual hard evidence that they were Argobbas where things such as a genealogy tying them to the Argobba or where an actual historical document is cited where they were mentioned to have spoken Argobba then I'll agree with you here but you don't. You have nothing but invalid sources and this isn't my opinion but proven above.
"They were somali means nothing unless the source EXPLICITLY states the walasma dynasty were somali"
Did you read what I wrote? One there is at least one source (a book written by an author whom your own sources use as a reference) that does explicitly claim the leaders of the Ifat/Adal (the Walashma) were either Arabized Somalis or Somalized Arabs. If you have a hard time accepting this source, that's not problem. Your own sources believed Lewis was clearly a credible source, hence why they use him as a point of reference numerous times. But again, I don't care if this dynasty was Arab or Somali or even English or Japanese as I stated; this page should only be filled with valid sources that back up their claims with evidence and in that regard I'm entirely fine with mostly sharing nothing more than the Walashma's Arabian genealogical traditions and then off-handedly mentioning (via reliable sources) that some of their genealogies are tied to figures like that Somali saint.
I don't care if this dynasty was Arabian or Somali nor do I want to edit this to state explicitly that they were Somali but merely share sources that do tie them to Somalis or claim they were Somalis like Lewis' works do, whilst maintaining the most accepted narrative that they had ultimately Arab genealogical traditions. My point here is simply that your claims that they were Argobba are fringe and unreliable and using shaky sources (For God's sake; one of your sources literally uses the other as a source) as you do is not going to back that claim up.
I explained to everyone above why the claims you're sharing are "fringe" or otherwise unreliable. The authors they tend to cite would directly oppose what they're claiming... The idea that they were Argobbas is not at all one that's fully accepted by academics concerned with this subject and the earliest academics who pioneered and practically started the concepts of Ethiopian & Somali studies did not believe them to be Argobbas nor do most still concerned with the subject like Lee V. Casanelli or Raphael Chijioke Njoku ever in their works refer to this dynasty as being Argobba or the Sultanate of Ifat being ruled by Argobbas. You trying to rename this page's first paragraph to read as "Argobba Muslim dynasty" is therefore disingenuous as this is not a fully accepted view among academics; evident by the fact that even your own sources cite numerous academics who contradict the claims they're making (Lewis, Cerulli, Braukamper, Pankhurst; none of them claimed this dynasty was Argobba). I'm not going to argue with you about your sources anymore; if you're still defending them after reading all I shared about them above then you're demonstrating a clear bias here.
Keep this page the way it is now and just don't touch it would be my final suggestion for everyone concerned with this subject. I'm absolutely fine with it as it is now. However if Zekenyan wants we can create an "ethnicity" section and mention that some authors claim that they were Argobbas there. I'm willing to go for this compromise but splattering this page with information that acts as though them being Argobbas is some well-accepted fact after everything I've shared about all the authors who would oppose this view (including ones Zekenyan's own sources use as a point of reference) would merely be disingenuous. Awale-Abdi (talk) 16:57, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


"Do you agree if the heading says Arab instead?"
Truthfully, I would prefer this, yes... If you want though as I said we can create an ethnicity section and share authors like Lewis who ties them to Somalis and then your sources (despite the problems with them that I've noted) that claim they were Argobbas then merely just share that no true ethnic origins for this dynasty are known beyond what their genealogies imply. I prefer the page as it is now but if it would appease you then we can try out this ultimately very "neutral" stance? Honestly, I have nothing against you as a person of course and am growing quite tired of us going back and forth in a hostile (but veiled-ly hostile) manner here. So if we can come to neutral ground like that where both of us can just move on and not bother with this page anymore; all the better. Or I can simply go to the genealogical traditions section right now and add your claims on the side that they were Argobbas and then we leave the rest as is? Please do consider this simple compromise so we can both move on with our lives... Awale-Abdi (talk) 17:07, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Addition of Unsourced Material

User:WilinWil discuss your edits here. You are currently editing against consensus Zekenyan (talk) 18:48, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Hilarious, you are reverting edits from a Walashma Ingoman (talk) 23:28, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
@Ingoman Walasma was of amhara-arab background. To say his children are now Somali means nothing his descendants can be Chinese. Zekenyan (talk) 13:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
The Walashma dynasty was not of "amhara-arab background" which is something that was previously mentioned by other users. AcidSnow (talk) 00:09, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
They are what the source says. Zekenyan (talk) 03:12, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
This is the kind of guy who dominates wiki articles these days, zealous morons with way too much free time. Adios wikipediaIngoman (talk) 23:24, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

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SHOWA SULTANATES

I STATRED TO SUSPECT THE LOW REGARED THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO WORJI PEOPLE. MY SUSPECTE ON THE ISSUES DEVELOPED AFTER SOME CONCIDERATIONS TWO OPINION ON THE EARLY HISTORY OF WORJI . ONE FROM OUR PISET MERI RAS ,THOUGH ,PUT THE NATIVITIES OF WORJI BEFORE 371 B,C ..BUT THIS NARATION WITH OUT GOING FARHER TWISTED 360M DEGREE AND BEGAN TO NARRATE AS WORJI APPEARED IN THE LAND DURING 700 A.D. THE SCONDE NARRATION LINKED WITH MIGRATION OF WORJI FROM MEDINA DURING THE CONFLICT BETWEEN CLIPHTES . IF THIS IS SO I BELIVE THIS PEOPLE ARE THE ONE WHO SERVE AS SULTANATS OF YEFATE ,SHOWA AND IFATES . WHY ? THIS IS BECAUSE THIS PEOPLE WAS LEAD BY ABDUREHAMN . ABDUREHEMAN IS THE ONE THE GOVERN SPAIN . IF ABDUREHAMAN AND THE PEOPLE THAT MIGRATE WITH HIM TO SPAIN WAS ABLE TO ESTABLIS MUSLIM GOVERNMENT WHY NOT HIS RELATIVES THAT CAME TO ETHIOPIA .OTHER SUCH AS HADIA ,AREGBO ARE FILLOWERS OF THEM NOT WORJI 196.188.127.240 (talk) 11:55, 26 December 2018 (UTC)Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).</ref> ABREHIT BY MERIRAS

March 2022

Hello @Biishaar,

I reverted your recent edit since it was disruptive and unconstructive. Somaliland is a de facto state and given that the Adal sultanate did not control parts of Somalia proper it would be misleading to label it as simply "Somalia", not to mention that going against WP:NPOV.

Many thanks, Gebagebo (talk) 00:51, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Connection to Yusuf Al Kawneyn (Aw Barkhadle)

The Walashma themselves assert that they trace their lineage from the 10th century Somali Sheikh Aw Barkhadle. They state this in the Walashma Chronicle. If that is the case should that not be the primary source for their genealogical origin? TriSolar (talk) 19:45, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

According to the sources cited, al-Kawneyn was an Arab (from Iraq I believe). Enrico uses this to justify them being of Arab lineage, but he also points out that many of the Sultans of Ifat/Adal had Ethiopian-Semitic names. Which he believes to be of Argobba origin. If you can find any scholars stating that al-Kawneyn was a Somali, and hence the Walashma were of Somali origin you can definitely add that in محرر البوق (talk) 19:35, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
Hey, sure I could provide some references to him being a native of Somalia and of him being Somali.
https://books.google.com/books?id=zTMOAQAAMAAJ&q=Yusuf+el+-+Kawneyn+somali
https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1026/5/34_M.%20A.%20RIRASH%20-%20Effects%20of%20sixteenth%20century%20upheavals%20on%20the%20history%20of%20the%20horn.pdf
https://books.google.com/books?id=uqw0DwAAQBAJ&q=Somalia+in+Transition+Since+2006+Somali+Sheikh+Yusuf+al-kowneyn+barkadle&pg=PT42
https://books.google.com/books?id=5PEOHJOA8AQC&q=aw+barkhadle+somali
Somalia; Wasaaradda Warfaafinta iyo Hanuuninta Dadweynaha (1972). The Writing of the Somali Language: A Great Landmark in Our Revolutionary History. Ministry of Information and National Guidance. p. 10. Aw Barkhadle, he was a native, who lived in about 1,000 years ago and is buried now in a ruined town named after him, Aw Barkhadle, which is a few miles away from Hargeisa.
Legendary Arab genealogy in the Horn of Africa is super common and the Walashma actually tie their lineage back to the same man that all Somali Clans claim descent from, Aqil ibn Abi Talib.
regardless it seems Aw Barhadle was most likely a native. His other common name Abu barakat al Barbari also reinforces his native status. TriSolar (talk) 20:10, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
Here is another source:
https://books.google.com/books?id=J6nODwAAQBAJ&dq=aw+barkhadle+myth+of+origin+which+links+the+somali+with+the+prophet+Mohamed%27s+clan&pg=PA16 TriSolar (talk) 20:22, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
His background is disputed we shouldnt include that in this article if you want to state his possible Somali background then do it on his page. The references you assembled says nothing about Walasma, his ties to this dynasty is abit unclear anyway. Why make an article about Walasma a discussion about their ancestors ethnic origin? Magherbin (talk) 20:51, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
I’m not trying to make it about him. I’m just saying aren’t the Harar chronicles (the oldest written history of the walashma and dating from when they ruled) the best source on their ancestry.
Also I never said the references here mentioned Walashma. Also his ties are very clear to the Walashma as they themselves state their descent from Yusuf Barkhadle in the chronicles from Harar.
here’s some sources which use the Harar chronicles as a direct source:
Cerulli, Enrico (1926). Le popolazioni della Somalia nella tradizione storica locale. L'Accademia. Cerulli suggests that the Saint "Aw Barkhdale" (Yusuf Al Kownayn) can be associated with "Yusuf Barkatla", ancestor of Umar' Walashma, founder of the Ifat dynasty
https://books.google.com/books?id=J1Ipt5A9mLMC&q=aw+barkhadle+founder+of+walashma&pg=PA242
Nehemia Levtzion; Randall Pouwels (Mar 31, 2000). The History of Islam in Africa. Ohio University Press. p. 242. Aw Barkhadle, is the founder and ancestor of the Walashma dynasty”
Bader, Christian (2000). Les Yibro: Mages somali. Les juifs oubliés de la corne de l'Afrique? (in French). Harmattan. ISBN 9782738488152. Translated from French to English: The Aw Barkhadle figure, it should be noted, is among the ancestors of the rulers of the Walashma dynasty, who reigned over the Muslim state of Ifat.”
The article can stay as is, which is why I’m using the talk page to discuss this. TriSolar (talk) 21:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
The source needs to say that both al-Kawneyn and the Walashma were of Somali origin otherwise that would be WP:SYNTH محرر البوق (talk) 22:44, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
his background been shown many times, you just hold onto Enrico one hypothesis and truth, his later work disproves it Aurelius5150 (talk) 12:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Check Linked pages

I will gradually improve the descriptions of the reigns of the Sultans in the rulers list, please check the Sultan's pages I linked in the list for citations and dont delete my content Yubudirsi (talk) 13:12, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Sultanate of Damut

Has anyone heard of the Sultanate of Damut mentioned in this chapter Ethiopia's relations with the Muslim world . It's said that the Walasma migrated from Damut to Ifat (historical region) but I can't find any other information on it which leads me to think it's dubious, and a misinterpretation of Kingdom of Damot Kowal2701 (talk) 20:16, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

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