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== RIP ==
== Books and Bytes - Issue 10 ==
I've been notified by Sarah's family that she passed away after a long illness and have offered to them to post the news here. If it needs to be posted elsewhere, will an admin please do so. Sarah was an inspiration to me and over the years became a good wiki friend. Though I knew she was ill, she never complained, she continued to edit right up to the end, and yet I suspected it was often difficult for her. She has a strong body of work here, and I know from chatting with her that she was deeply committed to the project. I'm unbearably sad. ] (]) 23:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
:*<small>For historical record...</small> An obit for Sarah was published community wide on Wiki on ]
:*<small>One more for historical record...</small>A published obituary by states, {{xt|Although Sarah was an accomplished journalist, few people knew of her first love, which was working with the international website Misplaced Pages, the mostly volunteer, online encyclopedia, which she joined in its formative years, shortly after its start-up in 2002. Sarah began editing Misplaced Pages in 2004 under the nom de plume, Slim Virgin, sometimes shortened to SV in more polite Misplaced Pages circles.}} She is greatly missed. ] ] ] 02:42, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
*I know we didn't always agree but I have a lot of respect for Sarah's many valuable contributions and am sorry to hear this. (] &#183; ]) ''']''' 00:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*...]<sup>]/]</sup> 00:04, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
**]. Thank you for all the work you've done, all the stuff you've written that I wouldn't have otherwise known about, helping out with the Elisa unblock and being patient when I was taking long getting the information for it... that was one of the first times where I really interacted with the community and you showed the nice side of it, you helped me understand something I hadn't. ]<sup>]/]</sup> 01:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Oh no -- I'm so sorry to hear 😢 Terrible news. ]] 00:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*This news is heartbreaking and I am devastated. SV's value to the 'pedia is immense and she cannot be replaced. My deepest sympathies to her friends and family. ]&#124;] 00:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Saddened beyond measure. ] 00:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*May Mors guide her safely to the afterlife. ] (]) 00:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*<nowiki>:</nowiki>( RIP —] • ] • ] 00:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*What devastating news. Sarah was a wonderful person and an irreplaceable Wikipedian. Sarah's work set an extraordinarily high bar—see the long list of excellent articles she developed at ]. The barnstars on her user page shows how the community will miss her. Farewell Sarah. ] (]) 00:59, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*I'm incredibly sorry to hear this. ] ] 01:03, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* 😔😔😔 ]] 01:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Terribly saddened to hear this news. Sarah leaves an excellent body of work that will continue to be read by millions of people in years to come, and I cannot think of a more fitting legacy. ] (]) 01:28, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*My condolences to her family and anyone else that knew her. You will be missed --] (]) 01:34, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*So sorry to hear this. Sarah was such a dedicated, prolific, longterm Wikipedian. Best wishes to her family and friends. ] (]) 01:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* This is a truly immeasurable loss for this project. SlimVirgin is responsible for writing the bulk of what is currently our ], which has proven to be one of this project's most important content policies, as well as our ]. In this project's early days, she also contributed to the development of core content policies such as ] and ]. It would be quite fair to say that the success of Misplaced Pages so far is a direct consequence of the fundamental principles that SlimVirgin was instrumental to codifying. In other words, Misplaced Pages might not exist in the ubiquitous form it does today if not for SlimVirgin. We have lost one of our very best editors. ] (]) 01:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*:Talk about a titan of an editor. Besides shaping some of the core policies and guidelines of the project, her reviewed work (GA+FL) has over 800,000 views in the last 30 days alone. It reflects such a range of interests with everything from Christian Scientists to Genetial Mutilation to political scandals show just how talented she was. It also shows how willing she was to do meaningful and deep work even in subjects that are hard to read and write about both emotionally (see also her work on Night) and because of the reaction of others (including those whose values don't align with Misplaced Pages). What a loss for our project. Best, ] (]) 02:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*A huge loss. For any new Wikipedian, it's just a matter of time before you become familiar with the name SlimVirgin -- if not her impressive article work, then her outsized influence within and upon the project. One of the few "household names" of Misplaced Pages who will surely be among the first inducted to a Hall of Fame should we ever set one up. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 01:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*This is terrible news. Sarah was a great contributor to Misplaced Pages, and a respected member of the community. My best wishes to her family and friends in this difficult time. ] (]) 02:00, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Very sad -- Sarah and I didn't always see eye to eye but she always made me think, and our last exchanges were very cordial. My condolences to her family and friends. ] (]) 02:14, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*A great loss to the community here, it must be more so for those who knew them in person. ] (]) 02:36, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*I knew she wasn't well, but had no idea she had so little time left; she worked so long even when it was hard for her. Great sadness. Great loss. Condolences to her friends and family. ] (]) 02:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*My condolences to her family and friends. I interacted with Sarah on only a few occasions, but found her extremely insightful and helpful each time. Of course, I know her better for her reputation as a tireless content creator—a huge loss to the community. ] (]) 02:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*She wrote many of the best and most important articles on all of Misplaced Pages, as well as several personal favorites. A true loss. ] <sup>]</sup>] 02:44, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Sarah was one of those Wikipedians that everyone around here knew. But from where our paths crossed, I did not realize I could only see the tip of the iceberg that represents her foundational, exceptionally prolific, and diverse contributions. Love. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">–&nbsp;]</span> (] ⋅ ]) 02:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Awwww .. drat. Sarah helped me so much with understanding policies when I first started. This is such a HUGE loss to the project. My heart and prayers to her family and friends - I am so sorry. ] (]) 02:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* We never interacted personally, but I am grateful for her extensive contributions — her passion and varied interests are reflected in some of the most well-written articles on this site. I've always associated her name with kindness and good faith. Her death is a great loss for the encyclopaedia, the greater community, and her family and friends. My condolences to anyone who knew her personally. ] (]) 03:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*One of the true leaders of English Misplaced Pages. If her family and friends should read this goodbye thread, I hope they get a sense of how respected she was amongst us, how important her contributions were to our community, and how enduring will prove her edits and assertions to be. Her life, enthusiasm and energy have created vibrations which will echo as long as English is spoken (and perhaps beyond). ] (]) 04:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*So sad; a big loss. Condolences to all her family and friends. ] (]) 04:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*She was generous, insightful, and fair. A great loss. So sorry to see this.]] 04:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* I'm so sorry... Eventually, soon, we all will be together. If the fates allow. Until then, Sarah.. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 04:22, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*We’ve lost another brave, strong, woman from our midst. Way too soon. I am going to miss her intelligence, insight, courage and the brilliant light she brought to the world. Rest in peace, dear one. ]<sup>]</sup> 04:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*This project will not be the same without you. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 04:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Sad to hear of this news. Deepest condolences to her family and friends. ] (]) 04:58, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Such sad news. RIP. ''']'''] 05:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Very sad to hear this news. You will be missed. ''']''' ] 06:23, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* I am really sorry to hear this.--] (]) 06:49, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Sad news indeed. RIP, and many thanks for all your valuable contributions down the years. &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;] (]) 07:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Goodbye Sarah. I hope you knew how much you were appreciated; not just for the massive contributions you made to the project's content and processes, but for just being here, being you, and being a part of this very weird community. Your absence will be felt for a very long time. --] (]) 07:34, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* A sad, sad loss. ] (] - ] - ]) 07:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Very sad to hear the news. ] (]) 07:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*I am very sad to hear this. ] (]) 08:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Very sorry to hear this, RIP. ] (]) 08:26, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Very sorry to hear of this. Sarah, you will very much be missed. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 08:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*You always knew what Sarah ("SlimVirgin") thought, yet she never left people feeling upset or insulted. One of the most well-known personalities on Misplaced Pages. My thoughts are with all her family and friends, online and in the real world. <span class="nowrap">]]</span> 08:40, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Very sad. My condolences to your family and friends. ] (]) 08:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Heartbreaking news. Like many others here, I did not know she was so ill. ] &#124; ] 08:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC).
*Sorry to hear this news. My condolences to family and friends. --] (]) <small>]</small> 08:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*You see these notices once in awhile, and maybe you vaguely might remember the username; or maybe you remember seeing the username at some discussion once. Maybe they were a regular editor at some article or WikiProject you might have come across. Or even a regular at some xfd or other collaboration page. Then there is '''SV'''. Just off the top of my head, I don't think there is much here on Misplaced Pages, including many fundamental concepts which we all tend to take for granted, which she wasn't involved in the discussion of. Regardless of whether one may have agreed or disagreed with her perspective, we are all the poorer here, for this loss. I offer my best wish: Vaya con Dios - May peace be with you.- <b>]</b> 08:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*I am so very sorry to hear this news. ] (]) 09:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Our project was better for your presence, Sarah. Rest in peace. ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 09:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* This is a very sad day for the project. Sarah was one of those people who always had the best interests of Misplaced Pages and its readers in mind through whatever she did - and she did an awful lot more than most. ] (]) 11:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Sincere condolences. The world is worse without you. ]|] 11:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*So sorry to hear the news - Misplaced Pages has lost one of its giants.--]] 12:24, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Such sad news. My condolences to her friends and family. ] (]) 12:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Damn that's sad. Sarah was Good People. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 13:26, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*NO! This is horrid news. I had nothing but pleasant communication with Sarah in the past. May her family and friends find comfort. ] (]) 13:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Condolences to her family, and to those editors who knew her well. Sarah was truly one of the most important contributors to this project. ]] 13:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
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* flowers, no words yet --] (]) 13:55, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Absolutely one of the best, Condolences to family and the WP Community. A rare bright star. &#8213;]&nbsp;] 14:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* My sincerest condolences. I'm very sad to hear this. Sarah and I both started editing here in 2004. We've known and worked with each other for nearly 17 years. I will miss her. ] ] 14:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* My sincere condolences. I was shocked to hear the news. I remember bumping into SlimVirgin online many a times since 2008. RIP. ]] 14:17, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Dear god. Heartbreaking, really. My deepest sympathy to her family and friends. Sarah, you have left a truly distinguished body of work here. Peace eternal. ] ] 14:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Rest in peace Sarah. -- ] (]) 14:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* I had an ]. Only an hour after I made my five-bullet point suggestion she improved the page with it, actively helping to resolve any doubts. Seems I forgot to thank you back then, but I am grateful for that and naturally for everything else you did for Misplaced Pages. Sarah, you will be missed. Rest in peace. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 14:25, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* I'm stunned...When SV first asked me if she should apply for adminship, about six months after I'd done so in 2004, I told her that she'd have no problem, but that she might want to not do so, because she cared too much about Misplaced Pages. I worried that she'd burn out and be constantly attacked by fools. I wasn't wrong about the latter; I'm glad I was wrong about the former. Farewell Sarah. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:27, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Disbelief and sadness. Sarah's soul shone through her awesome work here. Peace to her family and friends. ---] ] 14:31, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* My condolences to her family. ] (]) 14:45, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Thank you for all your hard work: you left the project in much better shape than you found it. –]] 15:31, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Very sad news, condolences to her family. -- '''] ]''' 15:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Damn! Damn! Damn! Sarah was a good mentor to me when I started editing, and was the first Wikipedian to ask me to stand for admin. I will miss her and her good sense and commitment to the project. My condolences to her family and friends. - ] 15:50, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Totally devastated by our loss here.--] (]) 16:16, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* No. No, no, no, no. ] ] 16:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* I was literally dumbstruck when I saw this. What a devastating and profound loss to this project and community. Sarah was one of the editors I interacted with on a regular basis and took comfort in seeing. I ] Mz7's comments. ] ] 18:19, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* We never interacted much, but I am sad to hear this. Thank you for improving the article on ]. ] (]) 19:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Very sorry to hear this. My condolences to her family and friends. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Rest In Peace Slim Virgin. Heaven earned another angel today. ] (]) 19:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Just heard about this awful news. As wikipedian and Gender Gap Task Force team member I am so greatful for her work. A big loss for all.--] (]) 20:02, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Oh, this is awful. She was the best of our best. Her work getting ] made and adopted as a core policy -- a task I would have though impossible -- was a greater accomplishment than most any other editor on this great and important and project has ever had. And that's not considering all her other accomplishments. I was very fond of her personally and I'm just in grief. ] (]) 20:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* May she rest in peace. My prayers and thoughts are with her family at this time. ] <sup>'']'' &#124; '']''</sup> 20:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* She was an exceedingly dedicated Wikipedian. Sad to hear of her passing. ] (] · ] · ]) 20:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Sad news, an awesome contributor to how Misplaced Pages works and a great teacher. Her influence will continue. . . ], ] 21:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Very sad news. She was so active and helpful and accomplished so much. A real loss. Rest in peace. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 21:35, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* I will miss your passion and your perception. The community is much the pooer for your loss. ] (]) 22:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* Terrible news. Although I'm sorry I didn't really know Sarah, her dedication to the project was undeniable. My deepest sympathy to her family and friends, here and elsewhere. ]] 22:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
* What a terrible loss. RIP. ] ] 22:38, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*Tears. ] ] 00:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Oh, no. Sarah was wonderful, she did a lot for this project. --] (]) 00:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*I have always had immense respect for her work; this is very very sad. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] (])</span> 00:30, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Dumbstruck. Rest in peace. ] (]) 00:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
::Very sorry to hear this. We often disagreed, but her passion and commitment to Misplaced Pages's values was beyond question.--] (]) 01:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* So sorry to hear this, her ability and dedication is undeniable. ] is a fitting memorial, the best treatment of the topic (of similar length) that you will find anywhere on the internet. --] (]) 02:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* terrible news. saddened to hear this. ] (] '''·''' ]) 02:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Really sorry to receive this news. I do not believe we ever corresponded on here, but, for ''many a year'', I observed your edits, citing of policies etc., and I attempted to tutor myself to a degree from them (even when I was almost fumbling on here to earn acceptance). We ALL have admiration for you, and your contributions, and I hope I speak for many when I say we will continue your work and strive to uphold your standards.--] (]) 02:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* R.I.P. You've helped lots of people in this world. 🌎 Thank you. ] (]) 03:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* We did not always agree, but Slim was one of the first Wikipedians with whom I interacted, and I always admired her passion and energy. May you be sheltered in the wings of the L-rd, Sarah. -- ] (]) 04:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Shocked and saddened to hear this. I can't imagine her not being here any more. We didn't always get on, but we had a lot of mutual respect for each other. I was honoured to have chatted with her on Skype more than once - ] <sup>]</sup> 05:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Heartbreaking news. You had a lot of impact in our community SlimVirgin. May you rest in peace sister. ] (]) 08:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
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* I have admired Sarah’s work from too great a distance. My heartfelt condolences to her family and her many friends. Patrick. ]<sup>]</sup><sup>(become ])</sup> 09:04, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Missed. --] <small>]]</small> 12:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* A very good administrator, whose wise counsel will be sorely missed. ] (]) 12:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* It only a month or two since we had such a lovely chat, and I am so sorry to see this news. I wish we hadn’t had such a falling out a few years ago, but I’m so glad we made up later. Condolences to her family. - SchroCat, editing from ] (]) 12:29, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* That we shall die we know. That our days should be so now drawn out in a lesser light... :( --] (]) 12:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Just terrible news. A huge loss to all. ] (]) 12:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Such very sad news regarding someone I truly admired. Sarah was an inspiration to many, including me. RIP, Sarah. --] (]) 15:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* What a terrible loss! When I first started editing Misplaced Pages in 2009, she seemed like a towering figure, and her thoughtful words were a great inspiration to me. ] ] 15:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Incredibly sad to learn of her death. Condolences to her family and friends. She will be sorely missed. She was one of the best writers on the project and also had a major impact on several of Misplaced Pages's core policies. Her legacy will live on for many years to come. Sydney Poore/]] 15:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Very sad. For me, she was an inspirational editor. ] (]) 15:57, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*I'm retuning, briefly, to write this short message. This news is such sad news. Sarah and I had a good relationship and we communicated on email, frequently, the last being around a month ago. This world is all the more better for her work on WP, but is now at a huge loss because of her passing. She really was one of a kind and I will miss her terribly. (Editor formally known as Cassianto) ] (]) 16:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*Very sad news. You will be sorely missed. – ] (]) 16:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*This is very sad, we and the world lost a talented woman. :-( My sympathies are with the family for their loss.--]&nbsp;|&nbsp;] 16:17, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* She was guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness. As we all should be. ] (]) 16:19, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Am so sad to hear the news. May her family find strength in these messages of condolence. ] (]) 16:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*One of the most important Wikipedians ever – this place won't be the same without her.-- ] (]) 16:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*I appreciate SlimVirgin's contributions to Misplaced Pages editorial policy. As it happened, many of the recommendations she made proved to be well aligned with the Misplaced Pages community spirit and have become part of the culture. ]] 17:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*This is devastating to hear, but I hope her family knows the legacy SV leaves behind and how different this place would have been without her. ] ''(]·])'' 20:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*I'm really sad to hear this. Sarah was a wonderful force for good at Misplaced Pages, and I simply cannot imagine who can replace the work she did. To her family and friends: we will miss her here. -] (]) 20:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*Oh my, what sad news. SV made a such huge contribution to our policies, articles and community that it is hard to think of WP without her. -- ]°] 22:23, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*I am very saddened to hear this news. She was a fantastic boon to this project, and, dare I say without sounding too conceited, through it a boon for all humanity. She will be terribly missed. ] (]) 23:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
*I am genuinely shocked to see this section. We never interacted before, but I have seen you many times at discussions and page histories. Rest in peace, SlimVirgin. You will be missed. ] (]) 00:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*One of my few interactions was a rough wild one a long time ago (VNT moment) The big picture is someone who has devoted an immense amount to do an immense amount of good for an immensely good project. Me and more importantly the world thanks you!<b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 00:57, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*This is very sad news. There are so many conversations we won't be able to finish. ] (]) 01:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*An editor and administrator whose passion and conviction for everything we ought to stand for was second to none. She was such an integral part of our community. Misplaced Pages will never be the same without SlimVirgin. ] ] 05:36, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
* She joined back in 2004 when many were still wholly positive about the internet as a transformative force. Yet Slim knew the project would need structure to prevent decay once the pioneer spirt of the earliest editors began to wane. Hence she created much of our core policy and enduring culture. She may have made a few mistakes, but overall her compassion and intelligence elevated the whole Misplaced Pages and her energy lifted up many editors. Not sure if she was Tzadeykes but she seemed the closest to it of anyone I've met. ] (]) 07:02, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
* A very sad day. Misplaced Pages lost its best editor. My condolences to those who knew her in real life. --] (]) 07:49, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*Rest in peace. — ] ] 09:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*We were at opposite poles on topics like the I/P conflict, yet her true voice, in correspondence, amiable and acute, breathed integrity as did her scrupulous editing. She was a foundational coign of the edifice we tinker with, a craftswoman of the highest order. We shared mutual friends and a love of classical Greek, and therefore, dear Sarah, as the rose-fingered moon lingers over our maimed landscape, one can only grieve, recalling Sappho:
:::οὐδ' ἴαν δοκίμωμι προσίδοισαν φάος ἀλίω <br/>
:::ἔσσεσθαι σοφίαν πάρθενον εἰς οὐδένα πω χρόνον<br/>
:::τεαύταν. ] (]) 10:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)<br/>
*Very sad news. Rest in peace. ~ ]] 15:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*Any time I saw her around, it was making the place better. A good editor and a good person! A lamentable loss. ''']'''×''']''' 16:19, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*So many great editors lost recently, sigh. Sad for this loss. ] (] &#124; ]) 16:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*Very sorry to hear this... rest in peace. ]&nbsp;<span style="border:1px solid #ccc;padding:2px">]<b>·</b>]</span> 16:30, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*The project genuinely won't be the same without Slim, she was a force for good here on Misplaced Pages in so many ways. I'm sorry for her family and friends, and also enormously appreciative that Victoria was able to let us know what has happened. ] (]) 18:27, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*Sorry to hear this. SlimVirgin will be missed. ], ], ] 18:34, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
*Oh my gosh, so sorry about this. I didn't have the chance to interact much with her over the years, but I really respected her a lot. This is so sad. ] (]) 01:41, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
*😿 we'll miss you dear. ] ] ] 02:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
* I'm utterly stunned by this news. My condolences to her family and her friends. As a fellow community member, I mourn: Sarah was brilliant and irreplacable, to say the least, and I don't think Misplaced Pages will ever be the same. Requiescat in pace. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em"> &mdash; ] (]&#124;])</span> 02:29, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
*I didn't interact with Sarah at all, really, but she was one of those names that I always saw around. We'll all miss her. –]] 03:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
*Oh no. I don't remember too many users from my days actively editing, but I remember you. And of all days, today I found a typo and fixed it, after not editing for years. And that led me to check my old watchlist on a whim. Which led me to Jimbo's talk page. And that led me here. I suppose if I hadn't known I wouldn't be sad, but if I hadn't known you would still be gone. I'll hug my loved ones extra tight tonight. ] (]) 05:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
*<nowiki>{{sad beyond words}}</nowiki> Good and dedicated 'pedians are rare indeed. They have become even rarer. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">]</span></small>] 14:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
*], {{u|Yoninah}}, and now Sarah taken from us within a mere six months? Perhaps COVID had nothing to do with this, but this is truly a plague year if all three of these supremely talented Wikiwomen, women who made not only the project but everyone they worked with better, have succumbed. "'']''"<p>Sarah I will remember in particular for her willingness to not only create articles about such difficult-to-categorize but undeniably notable subjects like ] and ], a challenge I've taken up as well so I can relate, but doing them right and doing them well. All of us would do well to live up to her example. ] (]) 14:17, 12 May 2021 (UTC)</p>
::I forgot to mention that, like Yoninah, she was someone I looked forward to one day meeting in person at some wikigathering, and now I never will ... only perhaps ] ... ] (]) 14:22, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
:::And I think she should not be allowed to pass without mentioning one more great thing she did: cleaning up ] from the POV/walled-garden mess it had become, one of our worst moments IMO, a task that even Jimbo couldn't get going. ] (]) 21:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
* I am sorry for your family's loss. My best regards, ] (]) 16:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
* I came back from a short holiday to hear of this terrible news! What a loss for Misplaced Pages. I remember when I first stumbled across your user page when I was a newbie, and I was amazed at how much of an impact a single user could have on the project. It was very inspiring to me and I honestly give you some credit for influencing me to stick it through and see what I was capable of. When I think about the biggest names on Misplaced Pages, yours is among the first to come mind. Your contributions to some of our most critical content policies and guidelines, dedication to closing the gender gap, and of course the superbly written content you authored yourself – all combined must surely amount to an incalculable impact, one that very few editors have ever or will ever match. While you and I only interacted but so much, just knowing you're not here feels like there's a gaping hole in the Misplaced Pages I know and love. It won't be the same without you, but where we are today is so, so much better because of you. Rest in peace, Sarah <3 <span style="font-family:sans-serif">&mdash; <span style="font-weight:bold">] <sup>]</sup></span></span> 22:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
* SV was and always will be one of the Titans of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 09:13, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
* Such tough news. An awesome editor here. SlimVirgin was always polite in disputes a great attribute of hers and for all editors to be inspired by and follow, she also was a great follower, respecter and improver of wikipedia policy. RIP. ] (]) 17:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
* I'm so sad. SV was someone I looked up to. ] (]) 20:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
* Sarah mentored my early days as a Misplaced Pages editor. She was a gentle, forceful, and inspiring teacher. (SlimVirgin and I were the top editors in developing ] – a very unusual digital ].) – ] (]) 22:01, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
* Rest in Peace. We will miss you. ] <small>] > ]</small> 01:37, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
* So sad to hear this. A huge loss for the community and for the project. ] (]) 01:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
* I'm very sorry to hear about SV's passing. She was a valuable editor and individual on Misplaced Pages, and will be missed by us all. Godspeed. ] (] - ]) 01:50, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
*I will miss Sarah every day; she was special, brilliant, and crucial to so many of us...I will never forget her; I am devastated at news of her loss...] (]) 01:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
* I can't find words. I hope her family appreciates the positive impact she had on us, the encyclopedia, and the world. A loss for us all. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— ]]</span> 00:05, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
* Thank you, for all you did here. You are missed. -- ] (]) 13:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
* Condolences to her families, offline and on. ] (]) 01:38, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
**Thinking more about this, it reminds me of the ] arc of Sword Art Online, where the most powerful online warrior turns out to be that of a terminally ill youth, for whom virtual reality is her only escape from the harrowing and painful real world. In that story, the dying girl succeeds in both making her impression on that online world, and concealing her struggle from the world at large. In the fictional world, that concealment was incomplete, and the online world came to mourn that protagonist's impending passing. In this real world, however, it apepars Sarah's concealment was not breached, and the collective accolade is only posthumos, rather than a sendoff befitting a champion who had made her mark on this virtual world. More's the pity. ] (]) 05:34, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
* Vale, Sarah. You will be missed. It was always a pleasure to interact with you and I can only imaging the joy you brought to the people around you. Rest in peace, ] (]) 04:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
* This is sad news indeed, so many have been lost this year. May her brightness shine alongside all the stars in the sky. ] (]) 21:12, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
* To the editor whose picture you should see when you look up the idiom '']'' in the encyclopedia: thank you for your contributions to the community. You may never become a household name, but you have affected the lives of hundreds of millions of people with your actions, first with the fledgling policies that became part of the ] that underpin our success, and second with your writing and community work on gender equality and coverage of the Holocaust. — ] (''']''') 14:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
*An immense loss. My condolences to family and friends. ''']] (])''' 00:25, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
*There's a missing piece of the encyclopedia that now can never be filled. You'll be missed, SV, and my thoughts are with your family and friends. ] (]) 03:05, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
* Only just heard. Will be remembered as a fearless editor, completely unafraid to take on the most controversial of topics. ] ] 21:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
* For once bad news didn’t travel, I’ve only just heard. This is terrible news; I’ve always though of SV as one of my Wiki-Friends. The project is diminished by her absence. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]</span> ] 21:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
* Just came to know about this dreadful news. I daresay I'm at a loss for words. RIP. '']]'' 04:51, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
* Oh no. I just learned about SV's death. This is awful news. Very few editors had such a precise grasp of the nuances of policy. Her loss will be especially felt in issues relating to paid editing and ], as she was vigilant in policing that guideline and preventing its weakening and undermining. Rest assured that she will ''not'' be replaced. The sad fact is that we rely upon not a million or so volunteers but, in certain areas, just a handful, sometimes one or two in the most crucial ones. R.I.P. ] (]) 13:42, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
* Rest in Peace Sarah, I hope your friends and family on and off wiki can take some comfort from the legacy you have left us here in this project. '']]<span style="color:#CC5500">Chequers</span>'' 13:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
*What sad news. You'll be sorely missed. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 14:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
*Although I never actually interacted with Sarah, I regularly saw her username on RTRC while I was patroling recent changes. I's sad that I will no longer see this name in the stream of edits. You will be missed. - ] <sub>]</sub><span style="color:#6B8E23">\</span><sup>]</sup> 01:06, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
* Shocked to hear this. A great loss to us, a greater loss to her friends and family, to whom my heartfelt condolences – should any of them happen to read this. ] (]) 10:15, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
*I saw people refer to this but didn't know it was true until I came to her user page. Just gutted. SlimVirgin was a pillar of the community from the early days and we are not only losing a great person, editor and admin but part of the community memory that she held. A loss on so many levels. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:45, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
*Shocking and sad. Razor sharp in discussions but always, always polite, you will be sorely missed by the project. My condolences to your family and friends, both in RL as well as here.--] <small>(])</small> 00:24, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
*Just learned of it through {{u|Serial Number 54129}}'s talk page memorial for her. My deepest condolences to family and friends, and all the other editors here who worked closely with her. She'll certainly be missed. ] ] 17:40, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
*Wow. I didn't always agree with her, but had huge respect for her. Not just as a person, but as someone who cared so much about Misplaced Pages. She will be greatly missed. ] (]) 04:10, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
* Wishing condolences to those who were close to her. ] (]) 22:52, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
* Sorry to hear this (only just found out) ] (]) 19:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
* Thank you for your dedication and commitment to improving Misplaced Pages. You spent countless hours bettering the project and will be missed. May you rest in peace, ]<sup>]</sup> 21:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
*Can't believe she's gone, rest in peace. ] (]) 22:19, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
* I'm sorry to hear this. I actually knew her way back when (long before Misplaced Pages). She was a force of nature even then, and while I didn't have much personal contact with her, I do remember at least one instance in which she was very kind and thoughtful to me. RIP --] (] • ]) 20:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
* Late to the party, I have only just read of SlimVirgin's death. (That is how I have always known Sarah, so to me it's the natural way to refer to her.) There is probably not much I can say that hasn't been said before, but I will just say that I regarded her as one of the best editors and one of the best administrators we had. The news has saddened me deeply. ] (]) 23:40, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
* My deepest sorrow and condolences to family, friends, and fellow Wikipedians at the passing of our SlimVirgin. She has been an admired partner on this continuing experiment. Misplaced Pages is the fine, informative, and helpful website it is due to her tireless work. I celebrate her and her lasting legacy on this website. When we encounter her work we will still feel her life and vitality. --] (]) 20:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
* My condolences to her loved ones. <sup>Thanks,</sup>] ] 16:34, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
*"Slim" was the best of the best here at Misplaced Pages and it was quite a jolt for me that she has passed. I envy the people that knew her in her in her life away from here. I felt almost sisterly towards her. I felt as though she was my Misplaced Pages sister and I long for her as if she were my sister. I suppose I'm sounding rather dramatic and that's why I've put off writing here for so long... hoping not too sound too syrupy, I guess. I hope that her family and friends tell their children about her accomplishments here. We talk about how the great politicians of the day wrote our American Constitution, well Slim helped write our Misplaced Pages Constitution and continued to improve it and work on its contents tirelessly. I knew her mostly for her work on the under-priviledged, including women and people of color. She had a great mind and a big heart. I miss her. ] (]) 00:51, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
* I put off writing here for so long because I really didn’t want to believe it was true. I still don’t want to. Writing this at all is very hard. Sarah is very missed. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:36, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
*This is very sad news. I had seen her around wikipedia for such a long time. My condolences to her family and friends.''']''' <sub>]</sub> 20:18, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
*I echo what has been said by Risker, Mz7, Zaereth, among many others. An immeasurable loss to the project and someone gone far too soon. May she rest in peace and what else Zaereth said in closing below. --] <sup>]</sup> 06:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
*You continue to be an inspiration. Thank you for your contributions. ]<sup>]/]</sup> 13:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
*My condolences to her family and friends in real life and here. Really sucks to hear a member of Misplaced Pages passing away but her efforts will not be forgotten... ] (]) 05:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
*I've only just read... we interacted briefly, you were a name I remembered. A loss for words. - ] <sup>]</sup> 23:55, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
*I too just discovered this, and am shocked, saddened and horrified. A tremendous loss for our project, needless to say. More eloquent voices than mine have already spoken regarding her many fine qualites, so I'll merely add a blessing for her spirit, and to all who loved her... RIP, Sarah. ] (]) 09:33, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
*She and I, a long time ago, used to have at each other with sharpened ]es... I am profoundly shocked and saddened, regardless. ] (]) 09:39, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
*Really sorry to hear about this. As a young editor, I often used to see Sarah around - I highly commend her for her work on articles relating to topics so many are reluctant to discuss or research. Rest in peace. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
*Only just learnt of this. Very sad to hear. A great and knowledgable contributor, and a strong and helpful person. My heartfelt condolences to her family. ] (]) 21:30, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
*I regret to be adding my condolensces so late after the fact, having been largely absent from the project by necesity in recent months. I feel the need to say that, because--incidental though that delay is--it is at odds with the significance I feel that the loss of Sarah constitutes for our project and our community. Sarah and I did share some areas of interest on the project, both in article and policy spaces, but we interacted directly only on a handful of occasions. But I had enough opportunity to observe her conduct and contributions (as an editor and a communicator) to walk away understanding the high regard in which she was held by the community generally. Beyond that, the evidence of her wisdom is also to be found in the structures which she played a significant (indeed, often central) role in building for this, our engine of understanding; in terms of those who made the encyclopedia what it is today, it may be no exagerration to say that we have never before lost a contributor of greater relevance than Sarah, or to say that the world is significantly poorer for this loss. But then, we are also the richer for the dedication this woman chose to invest in the notion that knowledge, and the sharing of it, is a universal right. ''] ]'' 02:06, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* I always saw you as one of the guardians of the project. But I had no idea just how profound, how wide-ranging, your contributions were. You will be remembered, and missed. My condolences to friends and family. ''']&nbsp;]''' 13:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* I realized that I hadn't commented here yet. SlimVirgin's positive impact on Misplaced Pages was such that her loss leaves areas where she worked vulnerable to tendentious editing, also resulting in increased activity on noticeboards. These events remind us of this sad loss. I didn't know Sarah much and only through Misplaced Pages, but I also remember of various wise talk page posts. Farewell SV, —]] – 14:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
*Like some others here, I had not learnt of this sad news until now. My condolences to her friends and family. She will be missed around here. RIP. ] (]) 19:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
*I've only just seen this awful news in ''The Signpost''. Sarah was one of the very first users I encountered after registering my account. She gave me some helpful guidance, which I really appreciated. Though we didn't interact much beyond that, I always admired her and looked to her work as a good example through the years. I still watch that first article we crossed paths on. What a terrible loss. <span style="font-family:Serifa">]]</span> 20:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
*This is heartbreaking. I send my sincerest condolences to her family. I’m glad they knew of her Misplaced Pages activity, which was so enormously accomplished. The world is lucky she shared her time this way. ] (]) 16:49, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
* Pondered for a long time what to write here. I wasn't fortunate to know Sarah or work with her but I do see and feel her impact on a daily basis. For me it feels like such a loss and such a void that no one can fill. It's like a room in a house you never go into because the pain is too great. I can not imagine how those who worked closely with her feel or even her family who lived with her every day. Being so close gave them the opportunity to hear and experience her Song and it is forever part of them but they are also most hurt by her loss because they have heard a beautiful melody day after day only to have it taken away and only the memory of it, though a part of them, is what is left. Sarah, you are cherished, you are missed, you are loved by so many. The impact of your life is still with us and will be forever, sweet, <span style="color:#FF0000">R</span><span style="color:#FFA500">A</span><span style="color:#FFFF00">I</span><span style="color:#00FF00">N</span><span style="color:#0000ff">B</span><span style="color:#4B0082">O</span><span style="color:#800080">W</span> in the sky. --]] 21:04, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
*I just learned about this very sad and heartbreaking loss. My condolences to her family. Sarah was a treasure, and will be greatly missed. Rest peacefully, my WikiFriend. ] ] ] 17:12, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
*What an extraordinarily impressive body of work. Gives me pause to reflect on the higher values that can be achieved on TheProject and to aspire to those heights. Thankyou Sarah.-<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 05:03, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
*This is terrible. I was hoping it was not true. So upsetting. <small>] <small><sup>Need help? ''']'''</sup></small></small> 05:05, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
* I regret that I only learned of Sarah's passing now. To repeat what others have written, she will be missed. -- ] (]) 09:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
* Sarah's was indeed a "household name" for Wikipedians, but where I really came to know her work was in the area of WWII and the Holocaust. She proved to be a truly excellent editor - thorough, accurate, opinionated in ways that kept the project honest - and one of a few whose judgment I trusted implicitly. My condolences to her family and friends. ] (]) 18:41, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
* Woooow. I'm utterly shocked to hear this sad news of your passing! We haven't talked for years, but you made quite an impact on my life and we even went through some difficult times together. I'm really sad you're gone. You made your mark on this world, my friend, and you have my love and respect forever. --] 14:07, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
* Very sad. I was privileged to have interacted with Sarah. --] (]) 05:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
* It's always sad to learn about the death of a fellow Wikipedian. Rest in peace. ''']''' (]) 12:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
* Sarah was a fantastic editor who done wonders with articles, She will be remembered and missed, RIP, My sincere condolences to friends and family, –]<sup>]</sup> 12:27, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
* Did not ever directly interact with SlimVirgin that I can recall, but I saw her contributions in discussions, and around other places on Misplaced Pages. I know she will be missed. My condolences to those that knew her well. ] (]) 18:52, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
* I am not very active on here anymore, so I did not know about this until earlier tonight. Incredibly sad, may she rest in peace. A true titan of Misplaced Pages history who, whenever she graced my watchlist, always seemed like she was honoring me by merely doing so. ] (]) 02:57, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
* We all would've come across Sarah sometime or the other while editing Wiki articles. Her presence can be felt everywhere. I see her as a trailblazer in many of the articles I edit. Going to miss her badly, indeed. Farewell, dear friend. ] (]) 04:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
* Rest in peace, Sarah. We'll deeply miss you. {{smiley|cry}}{{smiley|cry}}{{smiley|cry}} ] ] <sup>(] | ])</sup> 18:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
*Wow, I am speechless that I just now discovered this. Sarah and I got along very well. This saddens me greatly. My condolences, and my apologies for it being so late. :-(—] <span style="font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 15:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
* A great loss to everyone. She was a giant! She was very supportive! What a wonderful person. She will be sorely missed. Rest in peace, from your friend, ] (]) 08:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
* Did not get a chance to say anything when this happened ... but I knew about it. Sarah was one of the first editors I interacted with when I started editing (more frequently) in 2012. I wish I could recall the interaction, but whatever it was, it was one of the many interactions I had on Misplaced Pages that convinced me to stick around and keep editing, no matter what conflicts may arise on Misplaced Pages between the community and me. It may not have been much interaction, but it was enough to make me feel welcome and keep on editing. The loss of Sarah is a big blow to the project, and she is missed. ] (]) 19:10, 3 February 2022 (UTC)


== Follow-up ==
<div style = "color: #936c29; font-size: 4em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif">
] '''The Misplaced Pages Library'''
</div>
<div style = "font-size: 1.5em; margin: 0 100px">
]</div>
<div style = "line-height: 1.2">
<span style="font-size: 2em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif">'''''Books & Bytes'''''</span><br />
Issue 10, January-February 2015<br>
by {{user|The Interior}}, {{user|Ocaasi}}, {{user|Sadads}}
</div>


If this is the wrong time or place to post this, feel free to remove.
<div style = "margin-top: 1.5em; border: 3px solid #ae8c55; border-radius: .5em; padding: 1em 1.5em; font-size: .9em">
*Work is needed on writing the ]. That should later be used in the Signpost.
*New donations - ProjectMUSE, Dynamed, Royal Pharmaceutical Society, and Women Writers Online
*Sarah worked on many topics including several she found draining due to the content. One she was particularly proud of was ] and I'm hoping a few editors will add that to their watchlists because it easily degrades with passing edits.
*New TWL coordinator, conference news, and a new guide and template for archivists
] (]) 07:33, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
*TWL moves into the new Community Engagement department at the WMF, quarterly review
<p><big>]</big><br><br>
</div> ] (]) 17:41, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
<!-- Message sent by User:The Interior@enwiki using the list at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:The_Wikipedia_Library/Newsletter/Recipients&oldid=649082272 -->


* I would love to see a writeup about Sarah's work on making the BLP policy happen. There has been a meme in the media that BLP was the Foundation's idea rather than the English Misplaced Pages's community initiative. I think it would be fitting to set that record straight. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 16:53, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
== HLSmonkey02.jpg ==
*:{{u|Clayoquot}}, I agree. This core policy is so important to WP's credibility as a biographical source. I would like to know more about the role of Sarah, and others, in crafting this policy. <b>] ]</b> 19:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)


*Sarah has 12 Featured Articles that should not be overlooked.--] (]) 23:16, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Is there a way to prevent ] from being deleted? There's request form, as well as {{tl|OTRS pending}}. Otherwise, it looks like it will be deleted soon. ] (]) 00:36, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
**Her work on ] set a high bar for all of us. ] (]) 01:52, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hi {{U|Viriditas}}, I try to avoid image-deletion discussions nowadays because they're such a waste of time, but I'll take a look. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 03:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC) {{U|Viriditas}}: Repinging because I mistyped. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 03:59, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
*I'm not sure if this is germane to the conversation, but seeing as we're discussing her obituary, I wanted to mention a brief exchange I had with someone on Reddit five years ago. There was a rumour at the time that SlimVirgin's health was in decline, and I truly hoped that it wasn't true. It's just so hard to wrap my head around an English Misplaced Pages without her. I don't know if I'll ever really get used to it. Her passion was uniquely inspiring, both for me and undoubtedly many others. ] ] 06:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
*I've done some basic workup at ] which others can freely edit and improve. I'll also leave a link at the Deceased Wikipedians page. ] (]) 01:36, 13 May 2021 (UTC)


== TFA page views == == Impact ==
{{user QAIbox
I've just seen the FGM viewing figures for 7 February – perhaps you have, too? Anyway, at 49,662 it is the second-highest figure this year (beaten by ] with 51,692) and the fifth highest in the past six months. I don't think that any TFA that I have written has got near FGM's figure. You should be pleased. ] (]) 20:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
| title = Impact
:Thanks, {{U|Brianboulton|Brian}}. I was expecting a higher figure, but someone said that Friday and weekend views are lower, so that perhaps accounted for it. Still, it was a good number. Thanks for looking it up. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 04:00, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
| image = Cherry crashing into primordial Earth2.png
| image_upright = 0.9
| bold = Thank you for ]<br />in helping persons
| normal = by ],<br /> ],<br /> ]<br /> and {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case|1008531357|1008529967|defending them}}!
}}
I wish I had told you, ]. I wish the arbs had listened to you. We miss you. None of us can replace you alone, but we all should do what we can to keep your spirit in this place. --] (]) 12:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)


Four years ago, you were recipient no. ] of Precious, a prize of QAI! I wasn't the first one to award you that, the most beautiful edition - in 2007 - was by ], with ]:
== An interesting conversation... ==
<div style="font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; text-align: center;"><poem>
I thank thee, friend, for the beautiful thought
That in words well chosen thou gavest to me,
Deep in the life of my soul it has wrought
With its own rare essence to ever imbue me ...


Yea, it shall always abide with me
Hi there Sarah, there's an interesting discussion going on at ]'s talk page regarding an elderly female photographer that perhaps demonstrates how difficult it may be to get women's bio articles into WP. I have run into similar situations when it came to women or people of color. Thoughts? ] (]) 17:23, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
As a part of my immortality;
For a beautiful thought is a thing divine,
So I thank thee, oh, friend, for this gift of thine!</poem>
'']''
</div>--] (]) 07:07, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
{{clear}}


== Flowers ==
:Sorry, it was really long, so I archived it off my talk page - it's ].--<span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:#CC4E5C; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">] ]</span> 17:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

::I'm glad it worked out. It's a nice article. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:44, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

== ] ==

This page is coming along extremely well, and is almost entirely your individual work. Just wanted to mention that; otherwise it might seem as if I only write that I disagree with parts of it. That is merely because I really like the majority of it. Thank you. --] (]) 20:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
:{{ping|GRuban}} thanks, I appreciate your saying that. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:38, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

== A Wikivoyage request ==

As you may be aware Wikvoyage writes about a fantastical or fictional travel-topic or destination for April 1st.

This year's article got started a little earlier at ]

I am writing here, because I would like someone other than myself to review it, and possibly advise if there are some historical sights which would be of interest to the female traveller.( I wanted to avoid clichés about historical romances for example.) I'd also appreciate feedback as to any issues related to female travellers in time which would need to be specifically noted, so that they can be integrated into the article text, rather than having a 'Ladies' section. If you wanted to,given the tone of the article, add portions as satire or commentary I wouldn't object.

Back in the real word, Do you know of any contributors that would be able to advise on 'female' travel issues more generally ? (https://en.wikivoyage.org/Tips_for_women_travellers being the relevant article.)
] (]) 11:41, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
:Talk page stalker coming out from the shadows here. I think maybe the ] might be able to be shoehorned into that topic somehow. ] (]) 16:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

:{{ping|ShakespeareFan00}}, I'm sorry, I don't have time to help, but if you post a request on ], someone there might be able to. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:40, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

== User:Timelezz ==

*Hi SV, just wondering if you have a look at this. Don't know if you're working as an uninvolved sysop in this are - if not, no worries I'll notify Callanecc too--] <sup>]</sup> 13:52, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
::Thanks, I'll take a look. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 15:43, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

== ] ==

I was wondering if you had time to take a look at two versions of the Lead. You can see my notes on the current version . I've been trying to draw attention to some editing patterns here for a couple months. ] (]) 20:00, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
:Hi {{U|CorporateM}}, sorry, I missed this earlier. I'll take a quick look, but if it's anything protracted I won't be able to get involved. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 15:27, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
::Yah, it'll probably be protracted. I'm going to submit an SPI later today or tomorrow, but if they are paid accounts as I suspect, I'm sure they were smart enough not to edit from the same IP anyway. ] (]) 15:29, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

== banana ==

After much searching, I see you are responsible. Please unlock this article because Misplaced Pages asks me to edit and you are preventing it because of your lock. Thank you.

There's a sentence that some may think has racist undertones. A minor change would fix any such possibility.<small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==]==
Last year you kindly contributed to the above article's peer review or or FAC or both. An issue has arisen from yesterday's TFA appearance, and is under discussion on the article's talk. Briefly: an editor added into the text the cited information that Bondfield's was privately known as "Maggie", and then incorporated this into the lead so the subject appeared as '''Margaret Grace ("Maggie") Bondfield'''. I have removed the nickname from the lead, and stated my position on the talkpage. I would be pleased if you could visit and briefly comment there. ] (]) 16:36, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
:I've left a comment. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 15:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

== ] ==
Hi SlimVirgin, you recently semi-protected ] for a week. The edits have however resumed after the week has passed (removal of image, etc). Your continued input in this article would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. Sincerely, ] (]) 05:40, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
:Hi {{U|Taketa}}, I've added indefinite semi-protection. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 15:25, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

==Isabeau==
Thanks again for the copyedits and nudges for Isabeau. Very much appreciated and definitely necessary. I've added the image of the statue to the external links with the hopes that it might get a few views. ] (]) 19:02, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
:You're very welcome. It's looking good! Best of luck for later. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:10, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

== Thank you for contributing to Let's Talk Diversity Campaign! ==

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | ]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: bottom; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Learning & Evaluation Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: top; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Hi {{ {{{|safesubst:}}}ROOTPAGENAME}}, we are happy to award you a Learning and Evaluation barnstar, for your efforts in contributing to the ongoing conversation on ]! <br/>
We hope to see you around, sharing what you know on the ] I'll get in touch soon with some ideas as to where you can contribute. Cheers, ] (]) 21:21, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
|}
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== RfC tag thing ==

thanks for fixing that. ] (]) 01:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

== You have just restored my faith ==


{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;" {| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] |rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Gratitude Coffee''' |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Flowers'''
|- |-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Sarah, once again you are a rare bright star among the sleeping throngs. Your recent comments give me a little faith that common sense and truth have some chance here. Danke, '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC) |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | She was a wonderful Wikipedian. I’ve seen her name in a bunch of edit summaries, and I thought... wow, she’s good. I wish I’d gotten the chance to work with her. ] 21:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
|} |}


== Goodbye Sarah... ==
:Thanks, {{U|Petrarchan47|Petra}}. It's nice to see you around again. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:22, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
::Well, not everyone feels that way ;) I'm glad for your suggestion to move the "COI-like" discussion after the ANI has run its course. Let's do that. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 00:13, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


This is a really sad year for Misplaced Pages, losing not one but two of its top editors, not by their edit count but by the quality of their work and their incredible integrity as human beings. First, we lost Flyer22, and now this. This is a huge blow to the project, but that pales in comparison to the tragic loss of such a great and wonderful person, who was so incredibly smart and talented.
== Neonics thing ==


I never really had much of an opportunity to interact with Sarah. I think we may have spoken to each other once or twice in all the years I've been here. I doubt she ever knew how much I have always admired and respected her, or how much of an influence she had on me, especially back when I first started here. In all of Misplaced Pages, there are a handful of people who stand out among the crowd, and Sarah was a shining star above the masses. From the moment I crossed paths with her, I knew immediately, this was someone special. Perhaps it was because she shared my interest in quality, encyclopedic writing, or her love of writing in general, that first peaked my interest, but it was her brilliance, conviction, and steadfast integrity that I ultimately came to admire. She was someone you could really look up to.
Hi - you have the story wrong, on the neonics thing. Please actually read ] and see what happened there. Kingofaces offered an example of ''the kind of'' source that should be used - a review article. He never put that example in the article or even suggested putting that source in the article. EllenCT latched on to its funding by Bayer and tried to hang that like an albatross around his neck. She beat that horse and beat that horse. That was one small part of the behavior pattern that led me to try to seek a topic ban for her. She was incredibly disruptive. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> 23:25, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
:As a matter of fact, it was not at all so simple as you seem to want to make it sound. What he said was, "We should be using secondary literature (i.e. review articles) such as this: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/etc.2527/full " which was deemed by both of you to be a good source with no need to even mention that it was corporate-funded. This discussion took place in the midst of some edits that were being done that removed pesticides as one of the probable components of the mix that is presently considered to be the cause of CCD and of course, this Bayer review was in agreement with that. In fact, it would make a good study tool for how to manipulate facts and wording to produce any desired result you want. I have no doubt that it would have been used except that some editors put up a fuss about it. BTW, you have complained bitterly and long about not pinging editors, perhaps you should take your own advise. Sorry for sounding so adversarial, but the way you have spoken of Ellen is not at all acceptable. ] (]) 06:13, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
::Actually Gandy, it was exactly that simple. The piece you quoted "We should be using secondary literature (i.e. review articles) such as this . . ." was exactly as Jytdog described it. It was an example of what a secondary source or literature review is and nothing more than that. I've clarified that many times now and I don't intend to have this dredged up every time someone decides to ignore that. The sources I was primarily putting content together from were listed later in the discussion, but they don't even differ significantly in content from the Bayer funded source anyways. It's all really moot point, so I'd really appreciate if people would stop taking my posts out of context and leave it be. ] (]) 14:34, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
:::{{U|Kingofaces43|Kingofaces}}, literature reviews are used on WP as secondary sources, and are often understood to be independent and uninvolved. In this case two of the authors appear to be industry consultants, and was funded by Bayer, a major manufacturer of the insecticide the paper is about. If this were a mistake on your part, it would be no big deal, but the defence of it, and your opinion that funding doesn't matter when it comes to scientific studies, is a concern. That's why it continues to be mentioned. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:32, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
::::SV and Gandy, you both continue to ignore the fact that KoF brought this up only as example and never actually used it as a source nor even proposed content based on it, and EllenCT's behavior, acting as though he did and pounding away on that, was battleground, ugly behavior. That you are continuing, full force. It is a violation of the TPG - see ]: "'''Do not misrepresent other people:''' " (emphasis from the original). Please stop doing that. And Gandy, here (]) were my reflections on that source. You mischaracterize me. Thanks. ] (]) 13:11, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
::::also, Gandy, said: "we have no clear consensus on a topic ban, though there are plenty of valid concerns about EllenCT's behavior and temperament, as is demonstrated in this very thread by Ellen's reactions." So - the concerns were valid. I acknowledge that the close continued: "Still, some avenues to help alleviate the concerns that gave rise to the problematic behavior have been pointed out, and in general, there is simply not enough support to install such a drastic measure as a topic ban. Clearly, lessons can and should be drawn from this discussions, not just by Ellen but also by other parties. And with that, I think it is proper we close this" ] (]) 13:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::Where did I mention Ellen's editing? I didn't. All I said was that the way you have spoken of her is not acceptable. Because that's what you do - when you smell blood you close in for the kill and then you become surprised that anyone would find your actions...to use a couple of words that you use all the time for the actions of others, ''ugly'' and ''icky''. Just look at the way you were treating Ozzie when I had to email you about it. Ozzie is one of the nicest guys here but he does have some competent issues - as is well-known by all of those that work with him almost daily on the African Ebola article because every single one of his edits need work of some sort or another. But nobody gets all pissy about it. Sure we want good articles here, but we need to foster good relationships as well or we'll end up with only a core of editors that know every policy ever written and have the time to spend endless hours of work to push their particular POV forward. ] is another example. As far as I can tell, he's just a normal sort of person that has not yet realized that attempting to discuss can be called canvassing and to say anything in support of alt med, something BTW believed in by the overwhelming majority of people around the world, makes one a pseudo-med pusher. Pathetic. ] (]) 16:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


I am especially grateful for her work on core policies, and especially BLP policy; that extremely important and vital policy that protects both our readers and our subjects from very real harm. I've spent most of my time here helping to explain and enforce that policy, and am very thankful to Sarah for recognizing the importance of such a policy very early on. We will always be in your debt, not just us editors and writers, but our subjects, readers, and the world as well.
:::::Jytdog, once again (for the third or fourth time?), the reason there was concern is that Kingofaces : "... our job as editors is ... to summarize the current scientific consensus ... We should be using secondary literature (i.e. review articles) such as this: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/etc.2527/full"


I never knew until this year that I could be affected so deeply by the loss of someone whom I never met in person, nor ever really knew outside of her work on Misplaced Pages. My deepest condolences go out to her family and friends. To Sarah, may whatever god or spirit or chi you believe in carry you on to something better. The force will be with you, always. ] (]) 20:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::It sounds as though he wanted to use that source to "summarize the current scientific consensus." But the source is an industry-funded one, and two of the authors appear to be industry consultants. When challenged, he didn't say "oops, sorry about that." He : "Funding source is not relevant in assessing scientific studies, it's the content that needs to be addressed ... If you want to dispute the content then do so ... but we shouldn't be chasing red herrings about funding source. However, your assumption of 'paid for conclusions' is only that, an assumption, and it is going into original research territory." ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:11, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


== Sarah-SV prize? ==
::::::SlimVirgin, I don't need to say "oops, sorry" for something never intended from my post nor should even be thought of by anyone reading it in context. Even after being warned and explaining the intent of my comments both on the article page and at ANI, you are clearly going into the territory of misrepresenting an editor's comment now. That is a very much going against ]. That is not behavior that should be condoned by anyone, much less someone in an admin position. Again, just simply stop doing that. You are cherrypicking specific statements of mine to take them completely out of the conversation's context. Regardless of why, your behavior is becoming tendentious here after explaining this so many times in general and to you. It's time to drop the stick when editors tell you exactly what they meant.


Sarah was so active in and supportive of gender equity that it seems fitting for one of the WP groups in that field to consider awarding an annual or biennial prize in her memory for the best contribution to gender equity on the site. ] ] 08:26, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
::::::Just to make sure it's right here for you, I'll provide the context yet again (''wall of text warning'' to be thorough). I specifically said funding source does not matter for us as editors in assessing peer-reviewed sources. That is because when someone is saying a study isn't reliable because of funding source, they are really insinuating the study's findings aren't reliable because the the study if incorrect in some way. If the study really is crappy, that can be picked out in the methods of the paper, its results, or in its interpretations. That's why when peer-reviews come in for papers, peer-reviewers go straight for the meat and point out flaws in the study design, etc. Funding source does not implicitly imply study (un)reliability. They can't reject a paper on funding source alone, so it's a red herring to focus on that as a peer-reviewer. If a study has improper conclusions due to either just honest mistake (happens to all scientists) or some more malicious effect of industry affiliation, the improper conclusion should be called out either during peer-review if it's caught then, other papers citing it later directly, or just ignoring the paper and only mentioning the mainstream consensus in future reviews.
*Perhaps we could set up a Gofundme or something to create a cash prize in her name? I'd be willing to donate for certain. ] (]) 04:12, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
* I'd put in a few dollars. Frankly it would be nice to have something to which to donate in support of the project other than the Foundation, which has gotten plenty. ] ] 05:42, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
:{{u|Tony1}}, {{u|Hobit}}, {{u|BD2412}}, cash prizes tend to result in editors with questionable motives in my experience. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 08:33, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
::Alexis, I'd donate, too. But I wasn't necessarily suggesting a cash prize, which brings problems (large amount invested, dividends pay for the prize, is usual for ''in perpetuo'' prizes; seems unlikely). Why not replace cash with prestige: so members of the ], call for nominations and discuss and create a shortlist, which goes to, say, the chair of the WMF board. The chair makes the announcement. You never know, the current chair and the rest of the board might think that's a good way to further some of the Foundation's key aims. It would need brief selection criteria and a timeline. And if it works, I'd be in favour of later widening the scope to include other Wikipedias. Could be annual, or every two years? ] ] 12:20, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
:::{{u|Tony1}}, I think it would be better to aim for publication in the ] for starters. Possibly a custom barnstar? — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 14:12, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
::::I wanted something special in memory of Sarah, equal to her special role in the evolution of WP. And something with more grunt than a mere barnstar. ] ] 14:14, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Tony1}}, I get what you mean, but it may have a better chance of happening if you learn to walk before you run. Though if you believe you can run right away, go for it. Also the barnstar suggestion was just as an addition, not a replacement. Maybe as a way to nominate? — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 18:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
:::::* Can't WMF fund it under a rapid grant? --] (]) 20:28, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
::::::*What, in perpetuo? I'd rather not mix money into it, unless it's going to be a one-off. And I'd prefer our incentives toward gender equity to be long term. ] ] 02:34, 13 June 2021 (UTC)


== ''The Signpost'': 27 June 2021 ==
::::::As editors though, we ]. We are not considered experts here for that. We instead rely primarily on literature reviews to establish the scientific consensus or call out flawed experiments and papers. That is exactly what I was referring to in saying we needed literature reviews to summarize the scientific consensus and is well supported by our various policies and guidelines on the matter. If there was something wrong with ''this'' source in question, that's up for other literature reviews to call out. However, upon reading it though when assessing weights of various claims, it's not saying anything vastly different from the other studies that were discussed later. That made all the drama about that source rather moot point. If you were following the rest of the conversation on that specific source, we (including myself) did agree that it was not a truly ] because the ''authors'' were involved. This does not disqualify such a source here because the peer-review process vets these papers as well and directly calls to attention when authors have a real-life COI for reviewers to be extra cautious about. That would instead mean we'd be still be wary about the source in assigning weight if it is significantly different from other sources or using it in isolation. As for industry-''funded'' studies, we consider those reliable when an independent party (i.e., university researchers) do the work because their vested interest is in doing a properly designed experiment on top of the additional layer of peer-review. Notice that is all about the authors affiliation and not basing decisions on funding source.
<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2021-06-27}} </div><!--Volume 17, Issue 5--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 20:16, 27 June 2021 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div>


== Chelsea Manning ==
::::::As for my purposes in my comment to EllenCT (as I've stated many times now) I was simply saying here's an example a literature review: it reviews the current literature, summarizes it for us, the structure of what a review looks like, and isn't a primary research article. That's it. I know that whole kerfuffle with EllenCT covered a lot of ground, but reading the conversations within even a few days of a given post should give you more than enough context to show certain claims about me will just not fly. Either way I'm considering the issue with Ellen buried as long as she keeps it that way too, so I really suggest doing the same. That way there shouldn't be any need to continue this cycle of spelling out what I meant in every comment I made taken in isolation (or need to reach a post of this length). I'll consider the whole neonicotinoid discussion with you done at this point. I am more than happy to discuss the nature of scientific publishing, what actually goes on, what flaws there are, and how all that affects us here at Misplaced Pages in general. That's something probably better left for a new talk section, and is something I wouldn't mind discussing at my talk page either (in much shorter posts) if that's what really interests you. ] (]) 05:20, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


Thank you. I wanted to do it....but was nervous about my own issues. Mahalo and aloha to you.
:::::::"<i>As for industry-funded studies, we consider those reliable when an independent party (i.e., university researchers) do the work because their vested interest is in doing a properly designed experiment on top of the additional layer of peer-review. Notice that is all about the authors affiliation and not basing decisions on funding source.</i>" Really? Who is this "we" you are talking about? Can you cite policy, preferably not the entire page, but a quote from it that supports the view that the entity funding a study is not relevant to its credibility if a university is involved? Does this standard also apply to the ]?
:::::::"<i>I specifically said funding source does not matter for us as editors in assessing peer-reviewed sources. That is because when someone is saying a study isn't reliable because of funding source, they are really insinuating the study's findings aren't reliable because the the study if incorrect in some way. If the study really is crappy, that can be picked out in the methods of the paper, its results, or in its interpretations. That's why when peer-reviews come in for papers, peer-reviewers go straight for the meat and point out flaws in the study design, etc. Funding source does not implicitly imply study (un)reliability. They can't reject a paper on funding source alone, so it's a red herring to focus on that as a peer-reviewer. If a study has improper conclusions due to either just honest mistake (happens to all scientists) or some more malicious effect of industry affiliation, the improper conclusion should be called out either during peer-review if it's caught then, other papers citing it later directly, or just ignoring the paper and only mentioning the mainstream consensus in future reviews.</i>". Again can you please cite a specific part of policy, guideline, etc. that supports this claim? And so this also applies to the ] study which was republished? ] (]) 11:45, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
::::::::] answers your first question by having a third-party involved. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the second. If you want to discuss this further, I suggest taking this to the article talk page if your focus is on specific content here you have a question about. If it's more broad-sense in how we deal with scientific literature, feel free to ask at my talk page. This specific conversation here has gone on long enough, and I'd rather not branch it off to another topic. Best start a new conversation for this. ] (]) 13:55, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


OK...I mentioned {{U|Viriditas}} (and then took it out)....holy crap...he's not...I am so embarrassed, thrilled and sad at the same time right now. Really not sure how to process this.--] (]) 12:44, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
{{od}} Kingofaces43, I'd really prefer not to discuss this anymore. I urge you to read about the flaws of peer review, particularly in relation to financial COI.


== I miss you ==
Re: the article, I don't know what else to say. It's clear from the thread that you suggested, more than once, using a Bayer-funded article, in which two of the four authors were industry consultants, as a literature review regarding a product Bayer manufactures. You wrote: "We should be using secondary literature (i.e. review articles) such as this," and provided a link. Jytdog then to support that it was an RS. If Ellen and Gandy hadn't objected, it would probably be in the article illustrating the scientific consensus. All I can do is ask you to consider using independent sources in articles about these major financial interests, or use in-text attribution to tell the reader when you use an industry source, so that the reader knows what you know. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:07, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


Sarah, I miss your kind emails and thoughtful ways. I wish I could have said goodbye. Your loving friend, Ta bu shi da yu - Chris Sherlock. - ] (]) 08:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
:I don't think anyone is calling peer-review perfect (I'm well aware of issues with it), but it's the best we got. What I described above is how the process is intended to catch flaws as humanly possible regardless of reason for them. Still happy to discuss that all at a later date if you want (], especially the last paragraph, covers my views on this pretty well for additional reference). However, your comment related to Gandy and Ellen is highly inappropriate and rising to the level of a personal attack considering what I just explained to you above exactly about my intent and especially considering that the source didn't offer significantly different viewpoints from other sources. It really was just intended as a shorter literature review good for introductory reading on the topic before delving into the larger sources and introducing what a literature review is. Whether purposeful or just good-faith ], misrepresenting someone's comments are not ok. I've asked you nicely and repeatedly to refrain from this, so consider this your '''official warning not to engage in further personal attacks''' by misrepresenting my statements when I have already explained them to you. Just stop infusing drama into the situation that way, and I see no reason why we couldn't work together entirely collaboratively if our paths cross in the future. I am done with this conversation here as well, so I really just suggest burying the neonic thing as everyone else has done. ] (]) 20:42, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
:On days like today, I wish I could email you. I cannot tell you how I miss you. - ] (]) 04:29, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
::I just rescued some references for an article you started, ]. Evidence of you is everywhere, and you won't be forgotten. - ] (]) 08:51, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


== unreviewed article == == Remembering Sarah ==


Dear colleagues,<br>
Hello there. Could you possibly spend a moment and review this article and remove the template from the top of this article, please? Thank you in advance.
I created a generic userbox to commemorate our absent Wikifriends, and I keep a copy for Sarah at my user page:
{{User:Pdebee/UBX/RemembersAbsentFriend|SlimVirgin}}
{{clear}}
To add this userbox to your user page, just copy/paste:<br />
<code><nowiki>{{User:Pdebee/UBX/RemembersAbsentFriend|SlimVirgin}}</nowiki></code>
<br>
With kind regards;<br>
Patrick. ツ ]<sup>]</sup><sup>(become ])</sup> 15:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


== My condolences ==
The unreviewed article: https://en.wikipedia.org/Ali_Caszadeh
] (]) 12:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


Thank you for everything you did to help this project, so sorry to see you go. ] (]: ]) 23:56, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
== Question ==


== It's late but I just heard ==
Sarah, there is something that I've wondered about for a long time that is related to COI editing. One need look no further than my user page where I quote Chris Hedges: '''"They control our systems of information."''' and add: ''Surely no one could be so naive as to believe that corporations do not have an interest in turning our encyclopedia into a corporate-approved encyclopedia.'' At a certain point one must admit that to not fight the creep of corporate control into our articles really does make us appear to be a bunch of easily-led, lame-brained, losers just willing to go along with the flow rather than to tackle the problem and try to come up with some sort of strategy. What, if anything, is presently being done? I'm aware that a few years ago an editor asked for some sort of outside check to "prove" that he had no COI related to the articles he edits, and I've heard of this incident dozens of times since, where it is raised as absolute evidence of a lack of conflict of interest. Many times I've wondered how Misplaced Pages went about finding this so-called proof. If I put myself in a position in which I was editing for pay but denied it, how could it be proven that I was? I mention this because the first thing you know all a paid editor need do is have WP give him/her the WP Stamp of Approval and from then on that editor is home free to do as they please. They can now proudly display their badge of approval and anyone who questions them is now seen as a disgruntled editor in need of a reality check. ] (]) 01:32, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


that you had passed, through a Misplaced Pages dramaboard as somehow seems apropos. Farewell and rest in peace. If you are someplace where you see AaronSw, please give him my regards too. You and I didn't interact very much, but I remember you and I will miss you. ] (]) 02:57, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
:I agree that that's a concern, and I don't know what was done in that particular case. Generally speaking, nothing is being done. Less than nothing, because people who raise concerns risk being sanctioned. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:35, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


*Having not crossed swords with Slim for a while I decided to check in on her. I have to say I am genuinely saddened to learn of her passing. Despite our many disagreements she definitely earned my respect. Misplaced Pages will be a poorer place without her. With Flyer22 passing too, and SchroCat leaving, there are some large boots to fill. ] (]) 03:51, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
::Have you been following the discussion at Jimbo's talk page? Arbs (current and recently retired) who have commented there make it clear that COI should be ignored. Depressing. ] (]) 01:49, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


== ] ==
:::I haven't seen that discussion (will look shortly), but it's true that several actions by former Arbs have made things harder. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 02:07, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


Thanks to SlimVirgin, we read as the TFA today about the ], which came with the most excellent introduction I've seen to date, in both detailing the content as also the collaborators:
:::@ Boris Yes, I sure have and it has made me very heavy of heart indeed. Strangely, I have developed a closeness to Indian students through my work on the case of the Indian student that was gang raped on the bus and have felt an odd closeness to her parents who sold their land and spent all they had on her education... On the other hand, working on an Indian article has made it easier for me to see how an editor could completely take over an article which dealt with India and Indian politics - it can be very complex.


"This is a partial self-nom. The 10th anniversary of this incident is coming up on September 30 this year, which is why I'm nominating it for FA status. Several editors have worked on it over the years, both on the article itself and by offering guidance on the talk page. A full list of editors is , and talk-page contributors are . It was largely rewritten in October this year, though earlier contributions helped to shape the rewrite. The top editors from 2009 are ], ], ], and myself. Previous key editors were ], ], and ]. It is 41 kB (6502 words) of readable prose; 110 kB overall.
:::Though that said, the same thing can happen when dealing with a large US corporation, Monsanto for example. When you have one editor that knows everything there is to know about its workings and has two, three, and four, the number of edits than any other editor, it is difficult for any editor, let alone a newbie, to make much headway with their editing. Add to that, and as was noted in the Indian case, when an experienced editor knows every WP:THIS AND WP:THAT that there is, who can compete with that? That is getting into professional editorship, paid or not, and people like me can't possibly compete with that. I would never have the know-how to present a case against anyone that I felt needed to be dealt with. I think that we need to form a group that can assist editors that are concerned about corporate influence. Frankly, I'd guess that most concerns are not well-grounded - newbies need help understanding that our policies rightly need to put the brakes on including poorly sourced information. But, it ''could'' be done in a way that does not belittle editors and cause all this self-righteous drama.


What happened to 12-year-old Muhammad al-Durrah is a highly contentious issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He was filmed by France 2 on September 30, 2000 apparently being shot and killed by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during a gun battle with Palestinian security forces. Multiple, conflicting, and sometimes overlapping narratives have developed about the incident over the years. The basic positions are as follows, with examples of who holds the view&mdash;the people cited are either involved, or are journalists who've written about the issue in depth:
:::As far as I can tell, WP seems to be catching the small time crooks making a few bucks on the side and does not even seem to be interested in discussing the probability that the big boyz have all time time, and money, in the world to influence their articles. ] (]) 02:38, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


#''He was shot and killed by the IDF''. Held by ] and Talal Abu Rahma of France 2; most of the media that first responded; the IDF initially.
::::That is indeed a very depressing discussion. Re: MastCell's point about the chilling effect of the WillBeBack case, agree completely. It has been the single most destructive thing in efforts to deal with COI. Gandy, you're right. We catch the guy who earns $200 for writing a vanity bio, and do nothing about the industries that control all content about themselves. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 03:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
#''He was shot and killed, probably or definitely by Palestinian gunfire''. Held by e.g. General ] of the IDF following a controversial November 2000 IDF investigation; ], former France 2 correspondent.
#''He was shot and killed, but we don't know who fired the shots''. Held by e.g. ], news director of France 2, and Israeli historian ].
#''He was shot and killed, and we don't know by whom, but not by the IDF soldiers known to have been there''. Held by e.g. ] of ''The Atlantic''.
#''A boy did die that day in that area, but he arrived at the hospital (10 am) before al-Muhammad was shot (between noon and 3 pm), and the boy shown during the funeral was not al-Durrah. Muhammad may be alive or dead; there is no firm evidence either way.'' A small minority position, held by German journalist ], who has produced two documentaries about the incident.
#''There is no reason to suppose he was either shot or killed; the whole thing was a hoax''. A very small minority position, the so-called "maximalist narrative." Held by e.g. Israeli physicist ] who was involved in the October 2000 IDF investigation; ], an American academic; ], a French media commentator; ], director of the Israeli govt press office; ], a retired managing editor of ''Le Monde''; Jean-Claude Schlinger, a French ballistics expert hired by Karsenty. There is also a belief, held by at least one member of the October 2000 IDF inquiry, that the incident was staged, but that the boy's death was real and was part of the pretence.


The positions aren't as clear-cut as the above and overlap considerably. It has been difficult to steer a course through them, giving each view the attention reliable sources give it, but I think we've achieved a reasonable balance. The article covers all the main views comprehensively, without going into neurotic detail (I hope).
:::::Very interesting thread here. I'm wanting to discuss the potential for an ArbCom regarding specific editors working as a gang), and the rampant pro-industry POV ('COI-like') editing. I'd also like to discuss the possibility of creating a task force to support editors who encounter this activity. From what I understand, the MEDRS team has a support system for those who find talk of "fringe" on our pages. Are there systems set up that could serve as an example for such a task force? Like {{U|Gandydancer}}, I've kept my head stuck in article space. Most editors probably aren't equipped to deal with the ensuing noticeboards and wiki-lawyering they will encounter at many articles. If they had somewhere to turn for outside, independent feedback and advice, we might not be watching our editorial pool whither away. In the fight for content control, running editors off the site seems to be the goal. How can we counteract this? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 22:43, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
::::::I hate saying this, but maybe at some point you have to just shrug and say ]. If arbcom says we're not allowed to look into undisclosed COI then we're not allowed to look into undisclosed COI. You can try, if you think it's worth the risk of getting permabanned. ] (]) 00:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::::I haven't mentioned COI. Maybe you were responding to someone else? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 00:31, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


There are quite a few fair-use images in the article, as we had to use the original France 2 footage of the shooting. This is copyrighted, but although not released under a free licence, the network has allowed the images to be reproduced all over the world without charge, so there's no problem with our use of them. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 08:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)"
::::::{{U|Petrarchan47|Petra}}, the issue is volunteer time. First, {{U|Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Boris}} is right: ArbCom is unlikely to help with anything related to COI, because they've been part of the problem. One thing you could do is relaunch ], or create a ] that's part of that wikiproject – e.g. the COI task force, or if you want to take the focus away from COI, the Advocacy task force. Ask people to sign up if they're willing to help, including thinking through the definitions. The big issue is that there aren't many editors willing to do this work, and they get burned out very quickly. But the , and those students in India who lost money because of it, really should be a wake-up call. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
::::::::Well, let's hope so. I certainly don't care to take on a project like this, but I would be willing to offer support. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 01:10, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


Awesome. --] (]) 07:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::{{U|Petrarchan47|Petra}}, I think anyone wanting a solution will have to take the lead. I talked to someone recently who has experience of dealing with COI in publishing. Their advice was that the Foundation should be urged to set up a group of COI specialists who can topic-ban editors from articles where there ] control on behalf of financial interests.


== RIP ==
:::::::::The Foundation isn't going to do that. But they might give a grant to volunteers – a group who would gather the evidence and propose topic bans to the community. It would mean a lot of work; see ] and ]. You would have to find editors who understand why COI is damaging (e.g. {{U|Smallbones}}, {{U|Gandydancer}}, {{U|Coretheapple}}, {{U|Doc James}}, {{U|Short Brigade Harvester Boris}}), put whatever differences there are to one side, and (with the grant) pay for some specialist help and pay yourselves for the research. I completely understand why you wouldn't want to devote the time, but I want to leave it here as a suggestion anyway. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:59, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''“Known by many, respected by all.”'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | “A rare bright star among the sleeping throngs.” ] (]) 08:59, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
|}


== RIP ==
::::::::::Thank you for taking the time. This does sound like a rational approach. It's a big project for someone who isn't committed to WP anymore, but perhaps others will see this and decide to take it on. Meanwhile I'll be pondering and supporting you all from afar. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:35, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I talked to Sarah before the pandemics because she needed a photograph of the grave in Rome of the Australian artist Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge. I only managed to take those pictures today, and I had learnt the sad news she's no longer with us. She might have liked that someone continues the job she started and that her legacy is not lost. May the Earth be Light on You, Sarah. -- ''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:26, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
So I have been trying to address COI issue regarding paid editing via armies of sock puppets. What I have found is:
:Thanks for ] relating to ]. ] (]) 23:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
::. ] (]) 01:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
:::Condolences on this loss. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 08:39, 5 September 2022 (UTC)


::::You will be remembered. R.I.P. — ] (]) 04:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
*Jimmy Wales is supportive of us doing something
*We have TOU that does not allow it
*The WMF is not interested in enforcing the TOU. They want us to do it.
*Arbcom does not see it as a problem. And does not feel the TOU apply to them.
*There appears to be little desire to run check users on these sock puppet armies.
*It is unclear if one can link to other accounts and thus on can likely not discuss much evidence around COI on Misplaced Pages without risk of banning
*It is unclear if arbcom will ban editors who try to deal with it but they may
*The WMF has not agreed to provide support to editors if they are so banned by arbcom
*Elance and Fiverr are willing to comply with our TOU by deleting account there.
*I have proposed to the WMF the creation of a specific group of functionaries to deal with TOU enforcement. The WMF has not replied after more than a month and a fair number of emails.
*The ] notice board is where much work takes place. Needs more help.


== R.I.P. ==
So were to from here?


May rest in peace. ] (]) 00:01, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
*I have proposed a panel on the topic in Mexico (Jimmy Wales has agreed to introduce it, no one from Arbcom has agreed to be on it, Legal at the WMF is still thinking about it)
*If there was community support to create a new group of functionaries to enforce the TOU than the WMF may be willing to support the creation of one. That is the next RfC on the topic. ] (] · ] · ]) 22:59, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


== Historiography Appreciation ==
I am willing to help '''for free''', and will do whatever I can. Time is not a constraint. Travel could be since you might have to goat tie me and drag me off this island. I can't be bought, but I can be persuaded for the right reasons. My Dad always said, "Sweetie, integrity is an expensive virtue." ] <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 22:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
:{{U|Atsme}}, what is your take on Sarah's idea to ''relaunch ], or create a ] that's part of that wikiproject – e.g....the Advocacy task force'' as a way to begin addressing advocacy editing (spin-doctoring), and the misuse of guidelines to that end? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 22:33, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
::Just give me the authority and the tools, and if I can't dazzle you with brilliance, I'll baffle you with BS. ] Seriously, I am soooooo ready to do something. I see the problem, and I can almost recite our 3 core policies to you by memory. I also have the extra time because of my semi-retirement (which basically means I work harder for free) so let's do it - I'll take the lead if needed, but I hope Sarah will help guide me along. I'm a fast learner. Gimme, gimme, gimme. I'll train, I'll travel, I'll type - tell me where to start. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 23:03, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
:::I would also be willing to help out with a WikiProject Integrity type project or in creating such a task force, although my time online has been somewhat limited lately. --] (]) 23:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)


Your work at ] is appreciated. ]
::::{{U|Petrarchan47|Petra}}, {{U|Doc James}}, {{U|Atsme}} and {{U|BoboMeowCat}}, a way to start might be to spruce up the WikiProject Integrity page so that it looks lived in. Find some templates, add a bit of design, some images, write a good intro setting out its parameters (e.g. COI, paid and unpaid advocacy), and announce a relaunch. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:01, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
] (]) 01:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::That's a good idea. By the way, I see that I was pinged by you and another editor concerning discussions still ongoing at AN/I and T:COI. I have been away for a few days but will certainly take a look. The discussions have grown very large I see. I'm complimented to be invited into a discussion, as usually people want me to go away! ] (]) 16:57, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


== May you be at one with your gods, whomever they may be ==
::::::Sarah mentioned another, more in-depth approach too (scroll up). I started a thread about this idea at Atsme's talk page . Sarah, if you care to expand on it, please do stop by (or it can be moved here, but I didn't want to disrupt the conversations re task force and essay). '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


Damn. I don't know how I missed this. I never really told you how much I admired you. The world was a better place with you in it, and you leave great things behind. I always felt like a little dog yapping at your heels... ] <small>] </small> 14:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
==Orphaned non-free image File:Rukeyser.gif==
<span style="font-size:32px; line-height:1em">''']'''</span> Thanks for uploading ''']'''. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a ]. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see ]).


== Deep Condolences. ==
Note that any non-free images not used in any '''articles''' will be deleted after seven days, as described in the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-orphaned fair use-notice --> ] (]) 16:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


Hello. I would just like to stop here and say Rest In Peace. You have created many great articles and contributions. Thank you, and you will be remembered. ] ] 12:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
== Hello ==


==] scheduled for TFA==
{{you've got mail}}
To any TPSs, This is to let people know that the above article has been scheduled as ] for January 2025. Please check that the article needs no amendments. Feel free to amend the draft blurb, which can be found at ], or to make comments on other matters concerning the scheduling of this article at ]. If people could please keep an eye on that page, as notifications of copy edits to or queries about the draft blurb may be left there by ], who assists the coordinators by reviewing the blurbs, or by others. I also suggest that you watchlist ] from two days before it appears on the Main Page. Thanks to all in ensuring Sarah's work remains as high quality as she would want. - ] (]) 11:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC)


== Blessing ==
]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">]</font>)</sub> 20:02, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Just chanced upon another SV contribution, creation of the No Original Sources / Noticeboard, so again want to wish my condolences to fellow Wikipedians and those IRL who mourn her passing. May her memory be for a blessing. ] (]) 14:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

</div>
== Help please ==

Hi there Sarah, at the ] article the second para in the lead reads:

:The incidence of reported rapes in India are among the lowest in the world. However parliamentarians have expressed concern that majority of rape cases go unreported. Compared to other developed and developing countries, reported rapes per 100,000 people are quite low in India. The incidence of reported rapes in India are among the lowest in the world. However parliamentarians have expressed concern that majority of rape cases go unreported. Compared to other developed and developing countries, reported rapes per 100,000 people are quite low in India. India has been characterized as one of the "countries with the lowest per capita rates of rape".

Concerned about refs #5 and #7, I put in a request at the Reliable sources notice board (#14) and they agreed that these refs are not acceptable. I would like to change the para to read:

India has been characterized as one of the "countries with the lowest per capita rates of rape". However parliamentarians have expressed concern that majority of rape cases go unreported.

Having worked on several Indian rape cases in the past, It has been my impression that rape and politics go hand in hand in India. I would like to work on this article and am wondering just how it happened that only admins are allowed there - something I've never run into before in all the years I've been editing. Thoughts? ] (]) 14:58, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

:Hi {{U|Gandydancer|Gandy}}, the best thing is to ask the protecting admin, {{U|Bgwhite}}, to reduce to semi-protection so that you and {{U|Bargolus}} can edit, or if he intended full protection because of a content dispute, to reduce it to the usual few days, rather than two weeks. Standard procedure is first to approach the protecting admin, and if disagreement about protection level remains, go to ].

:Re: your proposed change, it looks fine, though I think it would read better without "however". Also, minor point, the edit needs a "the," as in "the majority of rape cases ..." Good luck in tackling such a difficult article. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:28, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

::{{U|Gandydancer}}, what you want changed is part of the second "war", you need to leave a message on the article's talk page first. The article is undergoing the second major "war" in the past few weeks. Sock puppets, harassment and accusations are only some of the "fun". Multiple people were blocked during the first "war" before I got involved and added page protection. I brokered a settlement for the first "war", but have not gotten involved in second. I'm hoping the parties come to an agreement first. {{U|Bargolus}} has left messages on my talk page seeking advice and asking questions. They are having trouble expressing their point of view... it is on the confusing side. I'm getting on my knees to beg and plead for you to add in your voice on the talk page. Any voice of sanity would be extremely helpful. ] (]) 19:59, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

:::I just added "the" that Sarah suggested. It was requested by Bargolus on the talk page. Gandydancer, beware that your suggestion will probably be greeted as, "you are a sockpuppet" by one of the editors. Ignore them. They have been warned, repeatedly, to stop saying everybody against their point of view is a sockpuppet. ] (]) 07:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

== Essay ==

Sarah, Thanks for your comment on ANI. Duck was the word I was looking for. Do you think it might be helpful to draft a COIDuck essay? As I mentioned in ANI, it seems COIDuck-like to violate multiple polices and guidelines such as WP:NPOV, WP:OWN, WP:CHERRYPICK, WP:SYTNTH, WP:BULLY, WP:TAGTEAM, WP:BITE. I agree with you that we need to try do something, especially in light of .--] (]) 23:42, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

:{{ping|BoboMeowCat}} an essay is an excellent idea. I have too much on my plate to start one, but I'd be very willing to make some edits. If you're interested in starting it, you might want to begin in user space so that you have a decent version ready before opening it up. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:06, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
::I may be more of a follower type, than a leader here, especially when it comes to policy, as I have limited experience. {{ping|Atsme}}, any chance you’d be willing to start such an essay and dazzle us :) If you, or any other talk page stalker, could start a draft of such an essay, and get the general essay format going, I will contribute to the writing. Anyone else interested in helping out with this? (pinging {{ping|Petrarchan47}},{{ping|Gandydancer}}) --] (]) 00:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:::You betcha, {{u|BoboMeowCat}}! Anchor's aweigh! Notice that I'm wearing my sunglasses. The dazzle can be blinding. ] <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 01:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

{{od}}{{tps}} fwiw, the essay would come out better if you've spent some time working the front lines of dealing with COI in WP. The two places where we need more help are AfC, AfD, and COIN, per this comment by {{u|DGG}}<s>, an Arbitrator</s> - see . I know that is more grunt-work than the glamour of being dazzling but it would be great to have more hands there. ] (]) 01:01, 31 March 2015 (UTC) (striking per below. ] (]) 01:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC))
:::::{{U|Jytdog}}, pleased not refer to me as an arb unless I'm acting as an arb. There, as almost everywhere except on arb pages, I'm commenting only as an editor giving only my own personal opinion. (or, sometimes, as an admin doing something any admin can do.) In neither context does being an arb make any difference at all. ''']''' (]) 01:06, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::thank you, will keep that in mind. sorry, and striking. ] (]) 01:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:::{{U|BoboMeowCat|Bobo}}, about pinging, it only works if a signature is added when the ping is, so pings added after the fact as you did apparently don't go through. See ]: "if the edit does not add a new signature to the page, no notification will be sent." I don't know whether it's a bug or a feature. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
::::Thanks, (re-pinging {{ping|Petrarchan47}},{{ping|Gandydancer}}) to alert them to this thread.--] (]) 01:09, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Ok, I got something started ]. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 01:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:Go, Atsme! Oh, and you might find extremely helpful. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 05:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:::(Related: ] '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 16:59, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
::Ok, I've done the damage, and the first draft is ready. ]. I apologize for the verbosity but it was once advantageous when I was paid by the word. Old habits are harder to break than the bank. Feel free to snip away at the verbiage, add infoboxes, images, and whatever else will help break the verbal monotony. The only thing I can confirm as missing is a remedy. I don't have one, so I left it open to suggestions from ] and/or other admins who might be concerned I might inadvertently screw something up, or who just enjoy <sup>stalking stealthily in the background</sup> ] <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 16:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

:::{{U|Atsme}}, I like your essay and your writing. Thank you for putting it together! The one thing I would urge caution over, and I was thinking of mentioning this to {{U|Petrarchan47|Petra}} too, is criticism of MEDRS. I know it has been misused (and misunderstood), but the people at WikiProject Medicine are very concerned about COI. {{U|Doc James}}, for example, is a strong MEDRS defender and COI opponent. MEDRS provides some defence against COI because for the most part it doesn't allow primary sources (e.g. individual studies). It's a conservative approach, but it's one that keeps out all kinds of misuse of primary sources, including by COI advocates. The more I've seen MEDRS in action, the more I've come to appreciate it, not only for COI but for quality in general. (That's assuming it's used correctly; it's worth reading carefully.) ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:47, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
::::(For my part, I would much rather address Advocacy editing and leave the COI issue to those already covering it.) My concern is not about MEDRS ''when used correctly''. I do have a problem with the fact that the American medical model has taken over WP, and that WP Project Medicine does not include practitioners from Chinese medicine, Indian (Aryuvedic) medicine, natural healing, ancient forms of healing, etc. When I think of an encyclopedia, I expect to see a rounded picture with the full history and all nations included. Instead, other forms of medicine are *judged* rather than described by this website.

::::I was dismayed to say the least when WP Project Medicine took over all of the Cannabis articles even though 2 of the 3 editors responsible admitted to a strong bias against herbal medicine. They also did not know anything about the subject, and made the articles sound more like an FDA warning than a presentation of all the facts to date. I actually brought in a Cannabinoid researcher to help them interpret studies in a field that is very new and complicated. I expected he would be welcomed and utilized (I introduced him via the Project Medicine talk page), but instead he was ignored and I was accused of canvassing, with one of the editors *still*, a year later, trying to get sanctions against me for that.

::::The MEDRS guideline does indeed allow for primary sources to be used with due weight, and we are being told otherwise, which is one way the guideline is being misused and misinterpreted. The misuse of MEDRS is a very complex issue, and is the very reason I would encourage Atsme to share her insights on this matter. She is seeing the exact things I am seeing and describes them clearly. I am sure Doc James does tremendous work, although again, he works in the very field he edits and it is possible that a worldview (encyclopedic view) of medicine might be harder to embrace.

::::You may remember, Sarah, when I came to you to ask about MEDRS - it was the first time I had heard of it. Jytdog as a way to keep information about RoundUp's potential health effects out of the Pedia. How would any human have been harmed by seeing that information? Only Monsanto stockholders would have been harmed. Yet here we are, 2 years later, and WHO is admitting RoundUp probably causes cancer. In hindsight, it seems that if the edit had been allowed to remain, some people may have made different buying choices and potentially have a lesser chance of getting cancer. MEDRS in this case was not used to protect human health, but rather a large corporation. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::There are high quality secondary sources that support health effects / concerns WRT pesticides and there has been for years. We hardly give the substances our blessing per ]. Just because some primary sources are good does not mean we should not do better and use secondary sources.
:::::That you consider the enforcement of using high quality sources to be an example of COI is unfortunate. ] is one of the few effective methods we have of dealing with COI in medicine. One can cherry pick primary sources. It is a little harder to do that with recent systematic reviews and meta analysis. ] (] · ] · ]) 03:20, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::::::::With all due respect, DocJames, reliable sources is exactly what defenders of genetic engineering lack—see ] for a specific discussion of this point—yet the exact same users cry "MEDRS" when it suits their purposes. Despite continual warnings about the state of the genetic engineering articles, which ''for years have make highly problematic claims about food safety'', would-be enforcers of scientific rigor have been conspicuously unwilling to make the necessary changes. The medical "authorities" on Wikipeida lack credibility so long as they continue to enable this whitewashing. shalom, ] (]) 01:05, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::^Strongly agree. ] (]) 05:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
::::::Doc, please note that I began my piece by saying that I am talking ''not about COI editing'', but advocacy editing. I have had unfortunate experiences with MEDRS being misused. Another example is (scroll to the bottom for complete context and Atsme's response). is a direct link to the edit in question). I am not talking in absolutes here, either. I'm not saying it's a bad guideline. I am simply pointing out that is being misused in a way that does not serve the reader, and likely reflects the bias of the editor rather than the "spirit of the law".

::::::Secondary sources can be cherry-picked as well. {{U|Viriditas}} is aware of this in relation to the Medical Cannabis article. Many editors have pointed out that the Cannabis articles are now POV, and in my attempt to counter what I saw as a coatrack of negative information added to the MediCann article during the great overhaul, I compiled using primarily MEDRS-compliant sources. I was told by Alexbrn that ''none'' of this was acceptable for the article. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 03:45, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::::::::Yes that is just a starting point. One then needs to than balance the sources based on how good they are. " Front Public Health" has an impact factor of zero and thus not a very good source. We also need sources that have a reputation for acuracy. ] (] · ] · ]) 04:58, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::Lets look at this edit
::::::::::The first ref is popular press , this is a primary source , this is more popular press Gah
::::::::::This is exactly the sources we should be keeping out of Misplaced Pages. If they were important we would see a review on Alzheimer's, Parkinson's or RA discussing it. There is not a lack of high quality recent literature reviews in top medical journals on these topics. The fact that they do not discuss it means it is not widely believed to be important. ] (] · ] · ]) 05:11, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::Might you be placing too much faith in the neutrality of the top medical journals? The fact that they do not discuss some things has to do with which studies receive funding, no? I think the Pedia is worse off without this information, and no one was being harmed by its inclusion. Popular press has been the lifeblood of this encyclopedia as long as I have been here, but with the MEDRS rule, people who know more than the rest of us can make sweeping statements and deletions based on it, leaving other editors and piles of information in the dust. I would rather have an encyclopedia that includes more information, not less, unless that info could cause harm ''to human health'' (if proven later to be false). MEDRS should be used to protect readers, but I see it used to censor information and to spin articles and attack alternatives so that the American medical industry and it's twin, the pharmaceutical industry, are seen as nearly infallible, when indeed they remain among the leading causes of death in the US. I wouldn't expect anyone receiving a paycheck from this industry to have a truly neutral view of this system and its inherent flaws, which is why it's beyond upsetting that WP has signed off on allowing professionals to control content, and even create policies (or guidelines being used as policy), in their chosen field. This seems the epitome of conflicted to me.

:::::::::::However, WP ''has'' signed off on this, for whatever reason, and I have retired. Please rest assured that I am not going to become a disruption to the collegiate atmosphere and the good work you all are doing to fight COI. Thanks for hearing me out. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:24, 1 April 2015 (UTC)


Sarah, you are a breath of fresh air, and so is Petra. I fully understand your concerns, and if you get a chance, please read my response to Petra on my TP because I actually addressed your issues in that wall of text (which I apologize for but it's as much a part of me as are my blue eyes and blonde hair, except those are colors I can change much easier than I can change the color of my dissertations. I am trying, promise). <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 21:54, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:Thanks, Atsme, I'll take a look at your post. Don't apologize for your writing. I like it! ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 03:29, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
WRT an essay

1) How one should edit Misplaced Pages
*Find a good source such as a 2015 review in the Lancet
*Paraphrase said source and add it (you can use one excellent source many times)
*Discussion may then occur regarding the paraphrasing or placement of the info
2) How one should not edit Misplaced Pages
*Come up with a conclusion you think is true
*Search the literature to find evidence to support this position
*Attempt to edit war it into place
If we use the best available sources we have a much better chance of having the best available content
] (] · ] · ]) 05:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

{{u|SlimVirgin|Sarah (SV)}}, what else needs to be done in order to make COI duckery a main space essay? Thanks for all you do!! <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 14:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

:{{U|Atsme}}, you can add your essay to project space at ] (or whatever title you prefer) by moving it using the move tab at the top of the page under "More" (that way preserves the page history), or by copying it onto the new page.

:Again, I would urge caution re: MEDRS, particularly the sentence "MEDRS is a content guideline, not a policy." It's widely accepted as a policy, despite the guideline label, though you'll see on talk that there's sometimes disagreement about how to apply it. One thing that might help is to read up about medical sourcing so that you're in a better position to find good sources and recognize when MEDRS is being mis-applied. Suggestions: ], ''How to Read a Paper: The Basics of Evidence-Based Medicine'', and some useful links at the BMJ, including by Greenhalgh. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::This is important - it's a guideline, but is widely accepted as policy? The lack of clarity is causing much strife amongst users; a handful have been complaining about this on my talk page. The murkiness surrounding MEDRS needs to be remedied or the conflicts won't end. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 20:37, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
:::Hi {{U|Petrarchan47|Petra}}, There are uses of MEDRS that are strongly supported, and then there is the misuse of it. One idea might be to take your strongest case – one that was dismissed per MEDRS but that you feel was policy-compliant or ought to have been – and ask for opinions about it on ]. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

===Break===
::::Thank you for the tip, Sarah. I'll take another look at it. While I completely understand the purpose and benefit of MEDRS (and have read it), I agree with Petra and the other editors who expressed concern over its misuse and the need for clarity. One of my concerns is censorship of information which inadvertently places WP in the role of ''advising'' readers rather than informing them, and doing so is not NPOV. While the information we provide should certainly be RS, we are still an encyclopedia providing ''general knowledge'', the point being ]. It is extremely fortunate that we have volunteers in the highest levels of academia, medicine and science writing and collaborating on articles about such topics but WP should maintain a more sterile position in lieu of ''promoting'' one view over another or ''protecting'' readers from learning about one treatment over another. For example, MEDRS basically prevents inclusion of integrative and alternative treatments in an article even though NIH recognizes it , as does the Mayo Clinic and other reputable medical clinics around the world. I generally steer clear of these types of articles but MEDRS occasionally bleeds over into related BLPs which is how I initially got involved. WP is global but there have been occasions where MEDRS was used as an excuse to exclude information from Chinese and Indian Journals as not RS. Their health systems can't be too bad considering population numbers: China in the lead with 1.34 billion, India with 1.19 billion, and the United States with a mere 311.1 million and the highest rate of autism in the world. Also, if the NY Times or ABC News runs a story reporting a pattern of behavioral issues or deaths linked to a certain drug, it should not be censored from inclusion in the relative article as long as it includes an inline citation and inline text attribution. I'll close with another concern. We can probably all agree that most people have become quite skeptical of big pharma and its perceived control over government; some of the reasons shown here: ]. Now look at the following series of reverts regarding the exclusion/inclusion of governmental health: , and the following series of reverts regarding academic sources: . I look forward to your response, and thank you very much for the time and attention you've contributed to addressing our concerns. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 05:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, {{u|SlimVirgin|Sarah (SV)}}, take a ''gander'' at it when you get a chance...almost a total revamp. ]. I'm also planning to change the title to COI ducks. Hopefully you'll like it better now. ] <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 22:54, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

:Hi {{U|Atsme}}, I'll take a look at it shortly. Just one point for now in response to your post. You wrote:

::"... if the NY Times or ABC News runs a story reporting a pattern of behavioral issues or deaths linked to a certain drug, it should not be censored from inclusion in the relative article ..."

:When newspapers run that a study has shown a new drug to be helpful (and these stories appear all the time), you would have to include that too. Given that such stories are regularly planted by pharmaceutical companies, you can see where that would lead. Ditto with allowing primary sources: you would have to include individual studies funded by the companies. How would we decide which primary sources to allow in?

:The point of relying on secondary sources in medical journals is that those authors make that choice for us. The alternative is to leave it to individual editors, perhaps without relevant training, perhaps with a COI. That's a problem with primary sources in every field, not just medicine, but the risk of COI editing based on primary sources is high in medicine. If you were to allow primary sources, how would you protect articles against this? ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 00:26, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

::Censoring information is far more harmful. If cutting edge or break-thru information is reported or published in RS, such as the NY Times, ABC, CNN, and/or in peer reviewed medical journals that publish independent studies with conclusions from different labs, I would think yes, we include it per NPOV in a dispassionate tone with proper weight and categorization as ''ongoing research'' or ''hypotheses''. Hypothetical scenario: major research company in US announces plans to conduct further research into a natural substance as the result of new discoveries of unknown mechanisms that show positive results (citing 6 different laboratory tests from different labs in the US, China, India) in-vitro and/or in laboratory animals. Can we not include a short paragraph about it in the relative article under a section titled ''hypotheses'', and/or ''research directions''? It's no longer pseudoscience or fringe because it is ongoing research. We're not calling it a cure - it's ongoing research. Who knows - a young student might be inspired by the information and set a new course in life as a scientist, researcher or doctor. Why would we want to keep such knowledge from our readers? Also, if we can trust CNN, ABC, the NY Times, etc. for breaking news about war, our national defense, politics, ebola, fracing, meteors, etc. why can't we trust them to give us cutting edge reports about science and medicine? If we adhere to policy using inline text attribution, and make sure to not give it UNDUE per the guidelines, why not? <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 02:42, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

:::Partly because journalists sometimes get it wrong (or often, in the view of scientists), partly because the pharmaceutical industry is active in guiding news sources (read Ben Goldacre on the manipulation of patients' groups), and partly because there would be no end to it. You can find a study on PubMed to show just about anything.

:::Your suggestion would mean that journalists would guide which medical primary sources were allowed as sources on WP. That would mean that researchers good at PR would be included in Misplaced Pages more often than researchers who don't court publicity. But we don't let journalists do that with history articles – we don't decide which Auschwitz survivors have offered credible testimony based on the view of CNN. We rely on the work of Holocaust historians, academics able to judge which primary sources are credible.

:::News sources can be used for current-affairs issues in articles about medical issues, though I'm not a regular editor of medical articles, so I don't know where the lines are drawn. It might be fruitful to start a discussion on WT:MED about the parameters, and ask for examples of appropriate current-affairs reporting in medical articles or of the appropriate use of primary sources. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 03:12, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

::::Not much hope either way........see following excerpt:
::::''Big Pharma Sways Opinions'' - Doctors may be persuaded to allow ghostwriting, which involves Big Pharma paying physicians to attach their names to positive articles about a particular drug with the goal of seeing it published in a reputable medical journal.

::::Often the commentary is little more than an advertisement penned by a company-paid copywriter showcasing a newer product. Big Pharma used ghostwriting to promote numerous drugs, including the antidepressant Paxil, the recalled weight loss drug Fen-Phen, the anti-epilepsy drug Neurontin, the antidepressant Zoloft and painkiller Vioxx, to name a few.

::::In addition, even when a medical reviewer, who is an expert in the field, writes a comprehensive assessment of a new drug for a medical journal, it is common practice for those supposedly unbiased professionals to be on Big Pharma’s payroll.

::::In a 2011 investigation into conflicts of interest in medical literature, an international team of researchers reviewed the funding sources of 29 meta-analyses, or studies of past studies, that involved 509 individual drug trials. Researchers identified seven meta-analyses in which all studies mentioned were funded completely or in part by the manufacturer of the drug being evaluated — or where the study authors had direct financial ties to the drugmaker. In six out of the seven meta-analyses, investigators did not disclose the source of funding.

::::These slanted studies appear in medical journals that are widely hailed as collections of unbiased scientific evaluation and separated from the long financial arm of pharmaceutical industry influence. Yet Richard Smith, former editor of the British Medical Journal, says, “All journals are bought – or at least cleverly used – by the pharmaceutical industry.”
::::<font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 03:42, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

::::::{{Ping|Atsme}} Who is drugwatch.com and why do they want me to call them for "a free case review"? Have you ever used them as a source in a Misplaced Pages article? ] (]) 17:01, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

:::::::Hi {{u|Geogene}}, I saw you add a ping (fix a typo) to your edit after you'd signed it. That doesn't work; they need a sig after the ping, so I'll re-ping {{u|Atsme}} for you. There's a script that produces the ping template to avoid typos. I'll find it and post it to your talk. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

::::::::Thank you, Sarah. {{yo|Geogene}}, I found them on the internet last night when I Googled the phrase "big pharma influence on medical journals". I just now went to the site again, and found their "about" link if that helps. All I know about them is what the website says. I don't normally write about health or medicine, so to your question, "no", I never used them as a source. They appear to be a law firm who specializes in medical claims and malpractice, etc. I'm not sure, but if they publish a conclusion about a case they handled, it wouldn't actually be OR, but it might be considered a primary source, or would it be self-published? They actually "called you"? <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 19:30, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

:::::::::{{ping|Atsme}} That's exactly what it seems to be. I looked up the host information for the site, and all I saw is that it's hosted by GoDaddy. It seems to be an intake point to recruit medical malpractice plaintiffs. I don't mean to imply that what they are doing is in any way unethical, or that the information there is necessarily wrong...just that I can't work out who has editorial control of the site. I think that, like pharma companies, they have a horse in the race. Their sources sections could be useful, though. ] (]) 20:30, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

:::::PS - worse yet: "But while the popular press celebrated this sudden attack of nanoconscience and while we still gravely debate whether physicians’ loyalties can really be bought for a disposable pen or a free lunch, the $310 billion pharmaceutical industry quietly buys something far more influential: the contents of medical journals and, all too often, the trajectory of medical research itself." <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 03:44, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

::::::PSS - It might also be of interest to note that the FDA is headed by an ex-Monsanto lobbyist (Michael Taylor), so is a questionable RS when it comes to the issue of GM foods, etc. Also, the FDA is subservient to the White House, it is not an independent scientific organization; it takes money from the pharma industry. (Examples from: and )

::::::And again from :

:::::::"The forthcoming article in JLME also presents systematic, quantitative evidence that since the industry started making large contributions to the FDA for reviewing its drugs, as it makes large contributions to Congressmen who have promoted this substitution for publicly funded regulation, the FDA has sped up the review process with the result that drugs approved are significantly more likely to cause serious harm, hospitalizations, and deaths. New FDA policies are likely to increase the epidemic of harms. This will increase costs for insurers but increase revenues for providers.

:::::::"This evidence indicates why we can no longer trust the FDA to carry out its historic mission to protect the public from harmful and ineffective drugs. Strong public demand that government “do something” about periodic drug disasters has played a central role in developing the FDA. Yet close, constant contact by companies with FDA staff and officials has contributed to vague, minimal criteria of what “safe” and “effective” mean. The FDA routinely approves scores of new minor variations each year, with minimal evidence about risks of harm. Then very effective mass marketing takes over, and the FDA devotes only a small percent of its budget to protect physicians or patients from receiving biased or untruthful information. The further corruption of medical knowledge through company-funded teams that craft the published literature to overstate benefits and understate harms, unmonitored by the FDA, leaves good physicians with corrupted knowledge. Patients are the innocent victims."

::::::But the FDA is accepted by WP as a trusted source for biomedical claims. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 05:13, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

:::::::Hi {{u|Atsme}} and {{u|Petrarchan47|Petra}}, I agree that the funding and ghostwriting problems stretch beyond the primary sources. I think the hope is that it's less likely that a secondary source will have these problems, because the review articles give an overview of multiple studies, so it's harder to interefere with that. It might be worth having a discussion about funding and sources with WikiProject Medicine because I know they do care a lot about COI. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:55, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

:::::::{{u|Atsme}} and {{u|Petrarchan47|Petra}} make some very good points about how money corrupts scientific publishing and regulatory agencies. I can think of no simple solutions to this problem. I do think that identifying funding sources for studies and review articles and connections of authors/editors that have significant ties to industry through current or past employment is helpful. I strongly disagree with a comment made above that because a university performs a study or review that is funded by industry that the study is "independent". Universities rely heavily on industry funding and there is immense pressure to report the result the industry wants reported. See for example . Quotes from that article:
::::::::"The odds of coming to a conclusion favorable to the industry are 3.6 times greater in research sponsored by the industry than in research sponsored by government and nonprofit groups, according to a published analysis by Justin Bekelman, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, and colleagues." (paraphrase of comments by Joseph Ross, a professor at Yale Medical School.)
::::::::...
::::::::“It used to be that drug companies would hand their new drug over to an academic center to have it tested, and then they sat back and waited,” said Marcia Angell, who retired as editor in chief of NEJM in 2000 after more than 20 years at the publication. “Now they’re intimately involved in every step along the way, and they treat academic researchers more like hired hands.”
::::::: refers to showing how funding corrupts review articles too with regard to cancer risk from second hand smoke:
::::::::However, studies have shown that when industry pays for research, it may influence the outcome. A 1998 of more than 100 articles published on secondhand smoke reported that 37 percent found no health risk. At least 74 percent of the articles exonerating cigarette smoke were written by scientists with ties to the tobacco industry.
:::::::The meta-study concluded:
::::::::The conclusions of review articles are strongly associated with the affiliations of their authors. Authors of review articles should disclose potential financial conflicts of interest, and readers of review articles should consider authors' affiliations when deciding how to judge an article's conclusions.
:::::::Based on this I think Misplaced Pages should do the same whenever possible. ] (]) 21:31, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

{{od}}Lots of good ideas were presented in this discussion, and certainly a lot of information to wrap our heads around. FYI, I finished the essay and it is now online, ]. I took the advice of several editors and polished it up a bit, only this time during normal daylight hours instead of late night with only half a brain as I have been. It's far from perfect, but it's still editable. I am duly impressed by {{u|Petrarchan47}} and the inspiration that has grown out of her ''retirement.'' ] Imagine what we could accomplish if she was back full time! ]

I also wanted to take this opportunity to acknowledge Sarah's FA accomplishments. I am in awe. I learned of Sarah only recently, but it was not difficult to recognize her outstanding abilities as an editor and exceptional qualities as an administrator. If only there were more like her! In the recent past, I suggested making FAs a prerequisite for an administrator position. I truly believes it provides for a better understanding of the actual work involved in getting the article right beginning with the most intricate of details from proper citations to comma placement. I have the utmost respect, admiration and appreciation for the work performed by the FA review team and the article nominators/collaborators throughout the process. To have gone through and passed so many FA reviews, Sarah clearly is a shining star, and I say that with the utmost sincerity. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><font color="gold">&#9775;</font>] 23:49, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
:She certainly is - that's a well known fact. Sarah, thank you for once again hosting an incredible discussion and sharing your insights. Atsme, you're hilarious and a burst of sunlight. Applause all around ~ '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:56, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

==RFPP==
I've an RFPP that you declined. Don't mean to step on your toes, but the title seemed worthy of salting. If you disagree, feel free to unprotect. ] (]) 01:20, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
:That's fine, Deor, and thanks for letting me know. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:26, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

== Advice please ==

Hi Sarah. Thanks for your cool and measured responses to the RfC at (I won't mention the page in case this is inappropriate). I have just seen an interchange on the user page of one of the editors in this drama which indicates there may be an alliance relating to that RfC. I appreciate this appears all very "cloak-and-dagger", and perhaps even slight paranoia, but, should I do something about this? I am getting extremely weary of all the drama going on over there, so if you suggest I drop this alliance possibility, I most certainly will. Of course I can provide the diff for this but felt better not to make this public at this stage.__] (]) 19:57, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

:Hi {{U|DrChrissy}}, I think the best thing for you at that RfC is not to comment on it anymore. It's getting bogged down with "meta" issues, and if that continues the closing editor might have problems closing it. As things stand, most people want the legislation section to be in the main article. That may or may not change as the RfC progresses.

:Often with an RfC, the best approach is to ask a clear question, link to what you want, create a separate survey section so that it's not overwhelmed by threaded replies, then stand back and let it happen. Sometimes things work out as we want, and sometimes not. I think focusing on possible alliances will lead to more distress for you, so I'd drop that aspect and focus only on steering the RfC to a conclusion (and, as I said, the best way to do that might be to do nothing). ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

::Great advice, thanks very much. As to correctly wording an RfC - I don't think I will be trying this again any time in the near future ;-) Enjoy your evening, morning or wherever you are in the world.__] (]) 20:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

== Hello? ==

I pinged you today. Did you not receive a notice? ] (]) 03:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
:Hi {{U|Lightbreather}}, I saw it about ten minutes ago, and that it was closed. I wasn't sure what the request was for. If you want to give details, I can take a look, but can't promise anything. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 04:14, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
:I also meant to say that I'm sorry about your elbow and that your friend is ill. I'm sorry for saving the post without saying that. I hope you're not in too much pain. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 04:51, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

== Talk back ==
{{Talkback|User talk:The Herald/Talkback|ts=05:43, 1 April 2015 (UTC)}}

== Rape article bias? ==

Sarah, I just read our ] article hoping to find stats on convictions and was surprised to find only a tiny section on convictions as opposed to a very large section on false allegations, with a link to a false allegations article to boot. Even the recent article ] was included in the false allegations for good measure. Beginning an attempt to expand the Convictions section, I began with the wording, "The courts have been criticized for the surprisingly low rates of rape convictions" with a source, and a UK article. It was immediately deleted. Would this be the sort of article that may need help from a more balanced group of editors, meaning more women involved in the editing, rather than the assumed 10 to 20 percent? While I am not suggesting that only women can edit the rape article without bias - I believe that most WP male editors are perfectly capable to do that - it does seem odd to me to find such an apparent long-standing gap in the amount of space given to these two sections. But for all I know, since one's own bias can be hard to spot, the bias can be on my part and for that reason I'd like some feedback from other women. Thoughts? ] (]) 14:10, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

:Hi {{U|Gandydancer|Gandy}}, I agree that it would be good to develop that section. Perhaps start by discussing with Andy on talk (he may only have objected to "the rapist was acquitted," so a quick ce might do it). Posting on ] might bring in people willing to help expand it. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
::This bias seems to be present on all of the rape articles I've read on Misplaced Pages. For example, Mattress Performance now has issues with editors adding negative commentary into section where it's off topic such as "university hearings" (with no balance of supportive commentary). Pretty much all of the neutrality improvements from when task force was working on it were removed except for the removal of accused name (that's still off). ] has an entire section for "criticism", but not for support for this proposed legislation. All of the rape articles I've read on WP seem to have a strong POV regarding false allegations. I've had a similar experiences as ] where attempts to improve or balance are quickly reverted (like completely reverted, along with normal fixes being undone). The articles related to rape seem to need more balance and neutrality and I'm not sure what's the answer. --] (]) 21:34, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

:::{{ping|BoboMeowCat}} I've only briefly looked at the suite of rape articles, and as you say I always noticed a bias. Time is the issue. People get burned out trying to deal with it. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:20, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

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RIP

I've been notified by Sarah's family that she passed away after a long illness and have offered to them to post the news here. If it needs to be posted elsewhere, will an admin please do so. Sarah was an inspiration to me and over the years became a good wiki friend. Though I knew she was ill, she never complained, she continued to edit right up to the end, and yet I suspected it was often difficult for her. She has a strong body of work here, and I know from chatting with her that she was deeply committed to the project. I'm unbearably sad. Victoria (tk) 23:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

  • For historical record... An obit for Sarah was published community wide on Wiki on June 27, 2021
  • One more for historical record...A published obituary by Saskatoon Funeral Home states, Although Sarah was an accomplished journalist, few people knew of her first love, which was working with the international website Misplaced Pages, the mostly volunteer, online encyclopedia, which she joined in its formative years, shortly after its start-up in 2002. Sarah began editing Misplaced Pages in 2004 under the nom de plume, Slim Virgin, sometimes shortened to SV in more polite Misplaced Pages circles. She is greatly missed. Atsme 💬 📧 02:42, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Very sorry to hear this. We often disagreed, but her passion and commitment to Misplaced Pages's values was beyond question.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • So sorry to hear this, her ability and dedication is undeniable. Female genital mutilation is a fitting memorial, the best treatment of the topic (of similar length) that you will find anywhere on the internet. --NSH001 (talk) 02:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • terrible news. saddened to hear this. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Really sorry to receive this news. I do not believe we ever corresponded on here, but, for many a year, I observed your edits, citing of policies etc., and I attempted to tutor myself to a degree from them (even when I was almost fumbling on here to earn acceptance). We ALL have admiration for you, and your contributions, and I hope I speak for many when I say we will continue your work and strive to uphold your standards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • R.I.P. You've helped lots of people in this world. 🌎 Thank you. CyberTroopers (talk) 03:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • We did not always agree, but Slim was one of the first Wikipedians with whom I interacted, and I always admired her passion and energy. May you be sheltered in the wings of the L-rd, Sarah. -- Avi (talk) 04:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Shocked and saddened to hear this. I can't imagine her not being here any more. We didn't always get on, but we had a lot of mutual respect for each other. I was honoured to have chatted with her on Skype more than once - Alison 05:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Heartbreaking news. You had a lot of impact in our community SlimVirgin. May you rest in peace sister. Anthere (talk) 08:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I have admired Sarah’s work from too great a distance. My heartfelt condolences to her family and her many friends. Patrick. Pdebee. 09:04, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Missed. --Andreas JN466 12:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • A very good administrator, whose wise counsel will be sorely missed. 95.148.229.85 (talk) 12:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • It only a month or two since we had such a lovely chat, and I am so sorry to see this news. I wish we hadn’t had such a falling out a few years ago, but I’m so glad we made up later. Condolences to her family. - SchroCat, editing from 109.249.185.62 (talk) 12:29, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • That we shall die we know. That our days should be so now drawn out in a lesser light... :( --Hammersoft (talk) 12:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Just terrible news. A huge loss to all. Ceoil (talk) 12:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Such very sad news regarding someone I truly admired. Sarah was an inspiration to many, including me. RIP, Sarah. --Rosiestep (talk) 15:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • What a terrible loss! When I first started editing Misplaced Pages in 2009, she seemed like a towering figure, and her thoughtful words were a great inspiration to me. Cullen Let's discuss it 15:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Incredibly sad to learn of her death. Condolences to her family and friends. She will be sorely missed. She was one of the best writers on the project and also had a major impact on several of Misplaced Pages's core policies. Her legacy will live on for many years to come. Sydney Poore/FloNightUser talk:FloNight 15:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Very sad. For me, she was an inspirational editor. Alexbrn (talk) 15:57, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm retuning, briefly, to write this short message. This news is such sad news. Sarah and I had a good relationship and we communicated on email, frequently, the last being around a month ago. This world is all the more better for her work on WP, but is now at a huge loss because of her passing. She really was one of a kind and I will miss her terribly. (Editor formally known as Cassianto) 2A02:C7F:869:5600:F57C:8E5C:A8F4:E00F (talk) 16:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Very sad news. You will be sorely missed. – SD0001 (talk) 16:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • This is very sad, we and the world lost a talented woman. :-( My sympathies are with the family for their loss.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 16:17, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • She was guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness. As we all should be. Viriditas (talk) 16:19, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Am so sad to hear the news. May her family find strength in these messages of condolence. Mjroots (talk) 16:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • One of the most important Wikipedians ever – this place won't be the same without her.-- P-K3 (talk) 16:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I appreciate SlimVirgin's contributions to Misplaced Pages editorial policy. As it happened, many of the recommendations she made proved to be well aligned with the Misplaced Pages community spirit and have become part of the culture. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • This is devastating to hear, but I hope her family knows the legacy SV leaves behind and how different this place would have been without her. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm really sad to hear this. Sarah was a wonderful force for good at Misplaced Pages, and I simply cannot imagine who can replace the work she did. To her family and friends: we will miss her here. -Darouet (talk) 20:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Oh my, what sad news. SV made a such huge contribution to our policies, articles and community that it is hard to think of WP without her. -- Colin° 22:23, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I am very saddened to hear this news. She was a fantastic boon to this project, and, dare I say without sounding too conceited, through it a boon for all humanity. She will be terribly missed. oknazevad (talk) 23:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I am genuinely shocked to see this section. We never interacted before, but I have seen you many times at discussions and page histories. Rest in peace, SlimVirgin. You will be missed. aeschyIus (talk) 00:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  • One of my few interactions was a rough wild one a long time ago (VNT moment) The big picture is someone who has devoted an immense amount to do an immense amount of good for an immensely good project. Me and more importantly the world thanks you!North8000 (talk) 00:57, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  • This is very sad news. There are so many conversations we won't be able to finish. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  • An editor and administrator whose passion and conviction for everything we ought to stand for was second to none. She was such an integral part of our community. Misplaced Pages will never be the same without SlimVirgin. Kurtis 05:36, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  • She joined back in 2004 when many were still wholly positive about the internet as a transformative force. Yet Slim knew the project would need structure to prevent decay once the pioneer spirt of the earliest editors began to wane. Hence she created much of our core policy and enduring culture. She may have made a few mistakes, but overall her compassion and intelligence elevated the whole Misplaced Pages and her energy lifted up many editors. Not sure if she was Tzadeykes but she seemed the closest to it of anyone I've met. FeydHuxtable (talk) 07:02, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  • A very sad day. Misplaced Pages lost its best editor. My condolences to those who knew her in real life. --Guest2625 (talk) 07:49, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Rest in peace. — Moe Epsilon 09:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  • We were at opposite poles on topics like the I/P conflict, yet her true voice, in correspondence, amiable and acute, breathed integrity as did her scrupulous editing. She was a foundational coign of the edifice we tinker with, a craftswoman of the highest order. We shared mutual friends and a love of classical Greek, and therefore, dear Sarah, as the rose-fingered moon lingers over our maimed landscape, one can only grieve, recalling Sappho:
οὐδ' ἴαν δοκίμωμι προσίδοισαν φάος ἀλίω
ἔσσεσθαι σοφίαν πάρθενον εἰς οὐδένα πω χρόνον
τεαύταν. Nishidani (talk) 10:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
I forgot to mention that, like Yoninah, she was someone I looked forward to one day meeting in person at some wikigathering, and now I never will ... only perhaps some sunny day ... Daniel Case (talk) 14:22, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
And I think she should not be allowed to pass without mentioning one more great thing she did: cleaning up Murder of Meredith Kercher from the POV/walled-garden mess it had become, one of our worst moments IMO, a task that even Jimbo couldn't get going. Daniel Case (talk) 21:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I am sorry for your family's loss. My best regards, Geraldshields11 (talk) 16:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I came back from a short holiday to hear of this terrible news! What a loss for Misplaced Pages. I remember when I first stumbled across your user page when I was a newbie, and I was amazed at how much of an impact a single user could have on the project. It was very inspiring to me and I honestly give you some credit for influencing me to stick it through and see what I was capable of. When I think about the biggest names on Misplaced Pages, yours is among the first to come mind. Your contributions to some of our most critical content policies and guidelines, dedication to closing the gender gap, and of course the superbly written content you authored yourself – all combined must surely amount to an incalculable impact, one that very few editors have ever or will ever match. While you and I only interacted but so much, just knowing you're not here feels like there's a gaping hole in the Misplaced Pages I know and love. It won't be the same without you, but where we are today is so, so much better because of you. Rest in peace, Sarah <3 — MusikAnimal 22:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
  • SV was and always will be one of the Titans of Misplaced Pages. SilkTork (talk) 09:13, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Such tough news. An awesome editor here. SlimVirgin was always polite in disputes a great attribute of hers and for all editors to be inspired by and follow, she also was a great follower, respecter and improver of wikipedia policy. RIP. Govindaharihari (talk) 17:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm so sad. SV was someone I looked up to. —valereee (talk) 20:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Sarah mentored my early days as a Misplaced Pages editor. She was a gentle, forceful, and inspiring teacher. (SlimVirgin and I were the top editors in developing Chelsea Manning – a very unusual digital Ménage à trois.) – S. Rich (talk) 22:01, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Rest in Peace. We will miss you. TigerScientist Chat > contribs 01:37, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
  • So sad to hear this. A huge loss for the community and for the project. mgiganteus1 (talk) 01:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm very sorry to hear about SV's passing. She was a valuable editor and individual on Misplaced Pages, and will be missed by us all. Godspeed. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:50, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I will miss Sarah every day; she was special, brilliant, and crucial to so many of us...I will never forget her; I am devastated at news of her loss...Modernist (talk) 01:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I can't find words. I hope her family appreciates the positive impact she had on us, the encyclopedia, and the world. A loss for us all. — Wug·a·po·des 00:05, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Thank you, for all you did here. You are missed. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Condolences to her families, offline and on. Jclemens (talk) 01:38, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
    • Thinking more about this, it reminds me of the Mother's Rosario arc of Sword Art Online, where the most powerful online warrior turns out to be that of a terminally ill youth, for whom virtual reality is her only escape from the harrowing and painful real world. In that story, the dying girl succeeds in both making her impression on that online world, and concealing her struggle from the world at large. In the fictional world, that concealment was incomplete, and the online world came to mourn that protagonist's impending passing. In this real world, however, it apepars Sarah's concealment was not breached, and the collective accolade is only posthumos, rather than a sendoff befitting a champion who had made her mark on this virtual world. More's the pity. Jclemens (talk) 05:34, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Vale, Sarah. You will be missed. It was always a pleasure to interact with you and I can only imaging the joy you brought to the people around you. Rest in peace, Tom (LT) (talk) 04:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  • This is sad news indeed, so many have been lost this year. May her brightness shine alongside all the stars in the sky. Netherzone (talk) 21:12, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  • To the editor whose picture you should see when you look up the idiom Standing on the shoulders of giants in the encyclopedia: thank you for your contributions to the community. You may never become a household name, but you have affected the lives of hundreds of millions of people with your actions, first with the fledgling policies that became part of the pillars that underpin our success, and second with your writing and community work on gender equality and coverage of the Holocaust. — Bilorv (talk) 14:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
  • An immense loss. My condolences to family and friends. starship.paint (exalt) 00:25, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
  • There's a missing piece of the encyclopedia that now can never be filled. You'll be missed, SV, and my thoughts are with your family and friends. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:05, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Only just heard. Will be remembered as a fearless editor, completely unafraid to take on the most controversial of topics. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
  • For once bad news didn’t travel, I’ve only just heard. This is terrible news; I’ve always though of SV as one of my Wiki-Friends. The project is diminished by her absence. Giano (talk) 21:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Just came to know about this dreadful news. I daresay I'm at a loss for words. RIP. JavaHurricane 04:51, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Oh no. I just learned about SV's death. This is awful news. Very few editors had such a precise grasp of the nuances of policy. Her loss will be especially felt in issues relating to paid editing and WP:COI, as she was vigilant in policing that guideline and preventing its weakening and undermining. Rest assured that she will not be replaced. The sad fact is that we rely upon not a million or so volunteers but, in certain areas, just a handful, sometimes one or two in the most crucial ones. R.I.P. Coretheapple (talk) 13:42, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Rest in Peace Sarah, I hope your friends and family on and off wiki can take some comfort from the legacy you have left us here in this project. ϢereSpielChequers 13:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
  • What sad news. You'll be sorely missed. ~Awilley (talk) 14:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Although I never actually interacted with Sarah, I regularly saw her username on RTRC while I was patroling recent changes. I's sad that I will no longer see this name in the stream of edits. You will be missed. - ZLEA T\ 01:06, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Shocked to hear this. A great loss to us, a greater loss to her friends and family, to whom my heartfelt condolences – should any of them happen to read this. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:15, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I saw people refer to this but didn't know it was true until I came to her user page. Just gutted. SlimVirgin was a pillar of the community from the early days and we are not only losing a great person, editor and admin but part of the community memory that she held. A loss on so many levels. Liz 21:45, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Shocking and sad. Razor sharp in discussions but always, always polite, you will be sorely missed by the project. My condolences to your family and friends, both in RL as well as here.--RegentsPark (comment) 00:24, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Just learned of it through Serial Number 54129's talk page memorial for her. My deepest condolences to family and friends, and all the other editors here who worked closely with her. She'll certainly be missed. warshy 17:40, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Wow. I didn't always agree with her, but had huge respect for her. Not just as a person, but as someone who cared so much about Misplaced Pages. She will be greatly missed. Hobit (talk) 04:10, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Wishing condolences to those who were close to her. Disillusioned Lackey (talk) 22:52, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Sorry to hear this (only just found out) Peter Damian (talk) 19:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your dedication and commitment to improving Misplaced Pages. You spent countless hours bettering the project and will be missed. May you rest in peace, Anupam 21:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Can't believe she's gone, rest in peace. AnApple47 (talk) 22:19, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry to hear this. I actually knew her way back when (long before Misplaced Pages). She was a force of nature even then, and while I didn't have much personal contact with her, I do remember at least one instance in which she was very kind and thoughtful to me. RIP --jbmurray (talkcontribs) 20:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Late to the party, I have only just read of SlimVirgin's death. (That is how I have always known Sarah, so to me it's the natural way to refer to her.) There is probably not much I can say that hasn't been said before, but I will just say that I regarded her as one of the best editors and one of the best administrators we had. The news has saddened me deeply. JBW (talk) 23:40, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
  • My deepest sorrow and condolences to family, friends, and fellow Wikipedians at the passing of our SlimVirgin. She has been an admired partner on this continuing experiment. Misplaced Pages is the fine, informative, and helpful website it is due to her tireless work. I celebrate her and her lasting legacy on this website. When we encounter her work we will still feel her life and vitality. --Drboisclair (talk) 20:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
  • My condolences to her loved ones. L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 16:34, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
  • "Slim" was the best of the best here at Misplaced Pages and it was quite a jolt for me that she has passed. I envy the people that knew her in her in her life away from here. I felt almost sisterly towards her. I felt as though she was my Misplaced Pages sister and I long for her as if she were my sister. I suppose I'm sounding rather dramatic and that's why I've put off writing here for so long... hoping not too sound too syrupy, I guess. I hope that her family and friends tell their children about her accomplishments here. We talk about how the great politicians of the day wrote our American Constitution, well Slim helped write our Misplaced Pages Constitution and continued to improve it and work on its contents tirelessly. I knew her mostly for her work on the under-priviledged, including women and people of color. She had a great mind and a big heart. I miss her. Gandydancer (talk) 00:51, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I put off writing here for so long because I really didn’t want to believe it was true. I still don’t want to. Writing this at all is very hard. Sarah is very missed. User:Kafka Liz 11:36, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
  • This is very sad news. I had seen her around wikipedia for such a long time. My condolences to her family and friends.VR talk 20:18, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I echo what has been said by Risker, Mz7, Zaereth, among many others. An immeasurable loss to the project and someone gone far too soon. May she rest in peace and what else Zaereth said in closing below. --TheSandDoctor 06:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
  • You continue to be an inspiration. Thank you for your contributions. TarkusAB 13:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
  • My condolences to her family and friends in real life and here. Really sucks to hear a member of Misplaced Pages passing away but her efforts will not be forgotten... Roberth Martinez (talk) 05:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I've only just read... we interacted briefly, you were a name I remembered. A loss for words. - TNT 23:55, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I too just discovered this, and am shocked, saddened and horrified. A tremendous loss for our project, needless to say. More eloquent voices than mine have already spoken regarding her many fine qualites, so I'll merely add a blessing for her spirit, and to all who loved her... RIP, Sarah. Jusdafax (talk) 09:33, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
  • She and I, a long time ago, used to have at each other with sharpened Olive Branches... I am profoundly shocked and saddened, regardless. LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:39, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Really sorry to hear about this. As a young editor, I often used to see Sarah around - I highly commend her for her work on articles relating to topics so many are reluctant to discuss or research. Rest in peace. Patient Zero 02:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Only just learnt of this. Very sad to hear. A great and knowledgable contributor, and a strong and helpful person. My heartfelt condolences to her family. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I regret to be adding my condolensces so late after the fact, having been largely absent from the project by necesity in recent months. I feel the need to say that, because--incidental though that delay is--it is at odds with the significance I feel that the loss of Sarah constitutes for our project and our community. Sarah and I did share some areas of interest on the project, both in article and policy spaces, but we interacted directly only on a handful of occasions. But I had enough opportunity to observe her conduct and contributions (as an editor and a communicator) to walk away understanding the high regard in which she was held by the community generally. Beyond that, the evidence of her wisdom is also to be found in the structures which she played a significant (indeed, often central) role in building for this, our engine of understanding; in terms of those who made the encyclopedia what it is today, it may be no exagerration to say that we have never before lost a contributor of greater relevance than Sarah, or to say that the world is significantly poorer for this loss. But then, we are also the richer for the dedication this woman chose to invest in the notion that knowledge, and the sharing of it, is a universal right. Snow 02:06, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I always saw you as one of the guardians of the project. But I had no idea just how profound, how wide-ranging, your contributions were. You will be remembered, and missed. My condolences to friends and family. Usedtobecool ☎️ 13:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I realized that I hadn't commented here yet. SlimVirgin's positive impact on Misplaced Pages was such that her loss leaves areas where she worked vulnerable to tendentious editing, also resulting in increased activity on noticeboards. These events remind us of this sad loss. I didn't know Sarah much and only through Misplaced Pages, but I also remember of various wise talk page posts. Farewell SV, —PaleoNeonate14:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Like some others here, I had not learnt of this sad news until now. My condolences to her friends and family. She will be missed around here. RIP. Carcharoth (talk) 19:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I've only just seen this awful news in The Signpost. Sarah was one of the very first users I encountered after registering my account. She gave me some helpful guidance, which I really appreciated. Though we didn't interact much beyond that, I always admired her and looked to her work as a good example through the years. I still watch that first article we crossed paths on. What a terrible loss. Armadillopteryx 20:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
  • This is heartbreaking. I send my sincerest condolences to her family. I’m glad they knew of her Misplaced Pages activity, which was so enormously accomplished. The world is lucky she shared her time this way. Innisfree987 (talk) 16:49, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Pondered for a long time what to write here. I wasn't fortunate to know Sarah or work with her but I do see and feel her impact on a daily basis. For me it feels like such a loss and such a void that no one can fill. It's like a room in a house you never go into because the pain is too great. I can not imagine how those who worked closely with her feel or even her family who lived with her every day. Being so close gave them the opportunity to hear and experience her Song and it is forever part of them but they are also most hurt by her loss because they have heard a beautiful melody day after day only to have it taken away and only the memory of it, though a part of them, is what is left. Sarah, you are cherished, you are missed, you are loved by so many. The impact of your life is still with us and will be forever, sweet, RAINBOW in the sky. --ARoseWolf 21:04, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I just learned about this very sad and heartbreaking loss. My condolences to her family. Sarah was a treasure, and will be greatly missed. Rest peacefully, my WikiFriend. Atsme 💬 📧 17:12, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
  • What an extraordinarily impressive body of work. Gives me pause to reflect on the higher values that can be achieved on TheProject and to aspire to those heights. Thankyou Sarah.-Sticks66 05:03, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
  • This is terrible. I was hoping it was not true. So upsetting. HighInBC 05:05, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I regret that I only learned of Sarah's passing now. To repeat what others have written, she will be missed. -- llywrch (talk) 09:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Sarah's was indeed a "household name" for Wikipedians, but where I really came to know her work was in the area of WWII and the Holocaust. She proved to be a truly excellent editor - thorough, accurate, opinionated in ways that kept the project honest - and one of a few whose judgment I trusted implicitly. My condolences to her family and friends. François Robere (talk) 18:41, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Woooow. I'm utterly shocked to hear this sad news of your passing! We haven't talked for years, but you made quite an impact on my life and we even went through some difficult times together. I'm really sad you're gone. You made your mark on this world, my friend, and you have my love and respect forever. --MPerel 14:07, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Very sad. I was privileged to have interacted with Sarah. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
  • It's always sad to learn about the death of a fellow Wikipedian. Rest in peace. Mar4d (talk) 12:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Sarah was a fantastic editor who done wonders with articles, She will be remembered and missed, RIP, My sincere condolences to friends and family, –Davey2010 12:27, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Did not ever directly interact with SlimVirgin that I can recall, but I saw her contributions in discussions, and around other places on Misplaced Pages. I know she will be missed. My condolences to those that knew her well. Huggums537 (talk) 18:52, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
  • I am not very active on here anymore, so I did not know about this until earlier tonight. Incredibly sad, may she rest in peace. A true titan of Misplaced Pages history who, whenever she graced my watchlist, always seemed like she was honoring me by merely doing so. IntoThinAir (talk) 02:57, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
  • We all would've come across Sarah sometime or the other while editing Wiki articles. Her presence can be felt everywhere. I see her as a trailblazer in many of the articles I edit. Going to miss her badly, indeed. Farewell, dear friend. Rasnaboy (talk) 04:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Rest in peace, Sarah. We'll deeply miss you. treekangaroos 18:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
  • Wow, I am speechless that I just now discovered this. Sarah and I got along very well. This saddens me greatly. My condolences, and my apologies for it being so late. :-(—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 15:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
  • A great loss to everyone. She was a giant! She was very supportive! What a wonderful person. She will be sorely missed. Rest in peace, from your friend, IZAK (talk) 08:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Did not get a chance to say anything when this happened ... but I knew about it. Sarah was one of the first editors I interacted with when I started editing (more frequently) in 2012. I wish I could recall the interaction, but whatever it was, it was one of the many interactions I had on Misplaced Pages that convinced me to stick around and keep editing, no matter what conflicts may arise on Misplaced Pages between the community and me. It may not have been much interaction, but it was enough to make me feel welcome and keep on editing. The loss of Sarah is a big blow to the project, and she is missed. Steel1943 (talk) 19:10, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Follow-up

If this is the wrong time or place to post this, feel free to remove.

  • Work is needed on writing the obituary here. That should later be used in the Signpost.
  • Sarah worked on many topics including several she found draining due to the content. One she was particularly proud of was Female genital mutilation and I'm hoping a few editors will add that to their watchlists because it easily degrades with passing edits.

Johnuniq (talk) 07:33, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

  • I would love to see a writeup about Sarah's work on making the BLP policy happen. There has been a meme in the media that BLP was the Foundation's idea rather than the English Misplaced Pages's community initiative. I think it would be fitting to set that record straight. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:53, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
    Clayoquot, I agree. This core policy is so important to WP's credibility as a biographical source. I would like to know more about the role of Sarah, and others, in crafting this policy. Tribe of Tiger 19:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Sarah has 12 Featured Articles that should not be overlooked.--MONGO (talk) 23:16, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure if this is germane to the conversation, but seeing as we're discussing her obituary, I wanted to mention a brief exchange I had with someone on Reddit five years ago. There was a rumour at the time that SlimVirgin's health was in decline, and I truly hoped that it wasn't true. It's just so hard to wrap my head around an English Misplaced Pages without her. I don't know if I'll ever really get used to it. Her passion was uniquely inspiring, both for me and undoubtedly many others. Kurtis 06:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I've done some basic workup at User:Risker/SV which others can freely edit and improve. I'll also leave a link at the Deceased Wikipedians page. Risker (talk) 01:36, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Impact

Impact
Thank you for your impact
in helping persons
by portraying them,
collaborating with them,
making policy for their protection
and defending them!

I wish I had told you, Sarah. I wish the arbs had listened to you. We miss you. None of us can replace you alone, but we all should do what we can to keep your spirit in this place. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Four years ago, you were recipient no. 1670 of Precious, a prize of QAI! I wasn't the first one to award you that, the most beautiful edition - in 2007 - was by Phaedriel, with a poem and an image:

I thank thee, friend, for the beautiful thought
That in words well chosen thou gavest to me,
Deep in the life of my soul it has wrought
With its own rare essence to ever imbue me ...

Yea, it shall always abide with me
As a part of my immortality;
For a beautiful thought is a thing divine,
So I thank thee, oh, friend, for this gift of thine!

Katherine Mansfield

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:07, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Flowers

Flowers
She was a wonderful Wikipedian. I’ve seen her name in a bunch of edit summaries, and I thought... wow, she’s good. I wish I’d gotten the chance to work with her. 🐍 Helen 🐍 21:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Goodbye Sarah...

This is a really sad year for Misplaced Pages, losing not one but two of its top editors, not by their edit count but by the quality of their work and their incredible integrity as human beings. First, we lost Flyer22, and now this. This is a huge blow to the project, but that pales in comparison to the tragic loss of such a great and wonderful person, who was so incredibly smart and talented.

I never really had much of an opportunity to interact with Sarah. I think we may have spoken to each other once or twice in all the years I've been here. I doubt she ever knew how much I have always admired and respected her, or how much of an influence she had on me, especially back when I first started here. In all of Misplaced Pages, there are a handful of people who stand out among the crowd, and Sarah was a shining star above the masses. From the moment I crossed paths with her, I knew immediately, this was someone special. Perhaps it was because she shared my interest in quality, encyclopedic writing, or her love of writing in general, that first peaked my interest, but it was her brilliance, conviction, and steadfast integrity that I ultimately came to admire. She was someone you could really look up to.

I am especially grateful for her work on core policies, and especially BLP policy; that extremely important and vital policy that protects both our readers and our subjects from very real harm. I've spent most of my time here helping to explain and enforce that policy, and am very thankful to Sarah for recognizing the importance of such a policy very early on. We will always be in your debt, not just us editors and writers, but our subjects, readers, and the world as well.

I never knew until this year that I could be affected so deeply by the loss of someone whom I never met in person, nor ever really knew outside of her work on Misplaced Pages. My deepest condolences go out to her family and friends. To Sarah, may whatever god or spirit or chi you believe in carry you on to something better. The force will be with you, always. Zaereth (talk) 20:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Sarah-SV prize?

Sarah was so active in and supportive of gender equity that it seems fitting for one of the WP groups in that field to consider awarding an annual or biennial prize in her memory for the best contribution to gender equity on the site. Tony (talk) 08:26, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

  • Perhaps we could set up a Gofundme or something to create a cash prize in her name? I'd be willing to donate for certain. Hobit (talk) 04:12, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I'd put in a few dollars. Frankly it would be nice to have something to which to donate in support of the project other than the Foundation, which has gotten plenty. BD2412 T 05:42, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Tony1, Hobit, BD2412, cash prizes tend to result in editors with questionable motives in my experience. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 08:33, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Alexis, I'd donate, too. But I wasn't necessarily suggesting a cash prize, which brings problems (large amount invested, dividends pay for the prize, is usual for in perpetuo prizes; seems unlikely). Why not replace cash with prestige: so members of the Gender gap task force, call for nominations and discuss and create a shortlist, which goes to, say, the chair of the WMF board. The chair makes the announcement. You never know, the current chair and the rest of the board might think that's a good way to further some of the Foundation's key aims. It would need brief selection criteria and a timeline. And if it works, I'd be in favour of later widening the scope to include other Wikipedias. Could be annual, or every two years? Tony (talk) 12:20, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Tony1, I think it would be better to aim for publication in the WP:Signpost for starters. Possibly a custom barnstar? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:12, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
I wanted something special in memory of Sarah, equal to her special role in the evolution of WP. And something with more grunt than a mere barnstar. Tony (talk) 14:14, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Tony1, I get what you mean, but it may have a better chance of happening if you learn to walk before you run. Though if you believe you can run right away, go for it. Also the barnstar suggestion was just as an addition, not a replacement. Maybe as a way to nominate? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 18:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
  • What, in perpetuo? I'd rather not mix money into it, unless it's going to be a one-off. And I'd prefer our incentives toward gender equity to be long term. Tony (talk) 02:34, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

The Signpost: 27 June 2021

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:16, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Chelsea Manning

Thank you. I wanted to do it....but was nervous about my own issues. Mahalo and aloha to you.

OK...I mentioned Viriditas (and then took it out)....holy crap...he's not...I am so embarrassed, thrilled and sad at the same time right now. Really not sure how to process this.--Mark Miller (talk) 12:44, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I miss you

Sarah, I miss your kind emails and thoughtful ways. I wish I could have said goodbye. Your loving friend, Ta bu shi da yu - Chris Sherlock. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 08:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

On days like today, I wish I could email you. I cannot tell you how I miss you. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 04:29, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
I just rescued some references for an article you started, Aftermath of the Holocaust. Evidence of you is everywhere, and you won't be forgotten. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 08:51, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Remembering Sarah

Dear colleagues,
I created a generic userbox to commemorate our absent Wikifriends, and I keep a copy for Sarah at my user page:

This Wikipedian remembers
SlimVirgin.

To add this userbox to your user page, just copy/paste:
{{User:Pdebee/UBX/RemembersAbsentFriend|SlimVirgin}}
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee. 15:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

My condolences

Thank you for everything you did to help this project, so sorry to see you go. Rubbish computer (Talk: Contribs) 23:56, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

It's late but I just heard

that you had passed, through a Misplaced Pages dramaboard as somehow seems apropos. Farewell and rest in peace. If you are someplace where you see AaronSw, please give him my regards too. You and I didn't interact very much, but I remember you and I will miss you. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:2B99 (talk) 02:57, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Having not crossed swords with Slim for a while I decided to check in on her. I have to say I am genuinely saddened to learn of her passing. Despite our many disagreements she definitely earned my respect. Misplaced Pages will be a poorer place without her. With Flyer22 passing too, and SchroCat leaving, there are some large boots to fill. Betty Logan (talk) 03:51, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Muhammad al-Durrah incident

Thanks to SlimVirgin, we read as the TFA today about the Muhammad al-Durrah incident, which came with the most excellent introduction I've seen to date, in both detailing the content as also the collaborators:

"This is a partial self-nom. The 10th anniversary of this incident is coming up on September 30 this year, which is why I'm nominating it for FA status. Several editors have worked on it over the years, both on the article itself and by offering guidance on the talk page. A full list of editors is here, and talk-page contributors are here. It was largely rewritten in October this year, though earlier contributions helped to shape the rewrite. The top editors from 2009 are ChrisO, George, Jaakobou, and myself. Previous key editors were Jayjg, Tundrabuggy, and Liftarn. It is 41 kB (6502 words) of readable prose; 110 kB overall.

What happened to 12-year-old Muhammad al-Durrah is a highly contentious issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He was filmed by France 2 on September 30, 2000 apparently being shot and killed by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during a gun battle with Palestinian security forces. Multiple, conflicting, and sometimes overlapping narratives have developed about the incident over the years. The basic positions are as follows, with examples of who holds the view—the people cited are either involved, or are journalists who've written about the issue in depth:

  1. He was shot and killed by the IDF. Held by Charles Enderlin and Talal Abu Rahma of France 2; most of the media that first responded; the IDF initially.
  2. He was shot and killed, probably or definitely by Palestinian gunfire. Held by e.g. General Yom Tov Samia of the IDF following a controversial November 2000 IDF investigation; Daniel Leconte, former France 2 correspondent.
  3. He was shot and killed, but we don't know who fired the shots. Held by e.g. Arlette Chabot, news director of France 2, and Israeli historian Tom Segev.
  4. He was shot and killed, and we don't know by whom, but not by the IDF soldiers known to have been there. Held by e.g. James Fallows of The Atlantic.
  5. A boy did die that day in that area, but he arrived at the hospital (10 am) before al-Muhammad was shot (between noon and 3 pm), and the boy shown during the funeral was not al-Durrah. Muhammad may be alive or dead; there is no firm evidence either way. A small minority position, held by German journalist Esther Schapira, who has produced two documentaries about the incident.
  6. There is no reason to suppose he was either shot or killed; the whole thing was a hoax. A very small minority position, the so-called "maximalist narrative." Held by e.g. Israeli physicist Nahum Shahaf who was involved in the October 2000 IDF investigation; Richard Landes, an American academic; Philippe Karsenty, a French media commentator; Daniel Seaman, director of the Israeli govt press office; Luc Rosenzweig, a retired managing editor of Le Monde; Jean-Claude Schlinger, a French ballistics expert hired by Karsenty. There is also a belief, held by at least one member of the October 2000 IDF inquiry, that the incident was staged, but that the boy's death was real and was part of the pretence.

The positions aren't as clear-cut as the above and overlap considerably. It has been difficult to steer a course through them, giving each view the attention reliable sources give it, but I think we've achieved a reasonable balance. The article covers all the main views comprehensively, without going into neurotic detail (I hope).

There are quite a few fair-use images in the article, as we had to use the original France 2 footage of the shooting. This is copyrighted, but although not released under a free licence, the network has allowed the images to be reproduced all over the world without charge, so there's no problem with our use of them. SlimVirgin 08:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)"

Awesome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

RIP

“Known by many, respected by all.”
“A rare bright star among the sleeping throngs.” Dronebogus (talk) 08:59, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

RIP

I talked to Sarah before the pandemics because she needed a photograph of the grave in Rome of the Australian artist Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge. I only managed to take those pictures today, and I had learnt the sad news she's no longer with us. She might have liked that someone continues the job she started and that her legacy is not lost. May the Earth be Light on You, Sarah. -- Blackcat 13:26, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for File:Tomba di Dora Ohlfsen.jpg relating to Dora Ohlfsen-Bagge. Johnuniq (talk) 23:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
Added. Viriditas (talk) 01:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Condolences on this loss. Andre🚐 08:39, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
You will be remembered. R.I.P. — Hamid Hassani (talk) 04:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

R.I.P.

May rest in peace. 2601:1C0:CF00:2680:0:0:0:485 (talk) 00:01, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Historiography Appreciation

Your work at 1948 Palestinian expulsion from Lydda and Ramle is appreciated. Special:MobileDiff/316257893 IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

May you be at one with your gods, whomever they may be

Damn. I don't know how I missed this. I never really told you how much I admired you. The world was a better place with you in it, and you leave great things behind. I always felt like a little dog yapping at your heels... Hiding T 14:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Deep Condolences.

Hello. I would just like to stop here and say Rest In Peace. You have created many great articles and contributions. Thank you, and you will be remembered. Cooldudeseven7 join in on the tea talk 12:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Stanley Green scheduled for TFA

To any TPSs, This is to let people know that the above article has been scheduled as today's featured article for January 2025. Please check that the article needs no amendments. Feel free to amend the draft blurb, which can be found at Misplaced Pages:Today's featured article/January 2025, or to make comments on other matters concerning the scheduling of this article at Misplaced Pages talk:Today's featured article/January 2025. If people could please keep an eye on that page, as notifications of copy edits to or queries about the draft blurb may be left there by user:JennyOz, who assists the coordinators by reviewing the blurbs, or by others. I also suggest that you watchlist Misplaced Pages:Main Page/Errors from two days before it appears on the Main Page. Thanks to all in ensuring Sarah's work remains as high quality as she would want. - SchroCat (talk) 11:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Blessing

Just chanced upon another SV contribution, creation of the No Original Sources / Noticeboard, so again want to wish my condolences to fellow Wikipedians and those IRL who mourn her passing. May her memory be for a blessing. ProfGray (talk) 14:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

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