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==Attribution to 'Rebirthing'?==
== When did Newmaker die? ==
Where is the supporting evidence that the so-called 'therapy' delivered by Watkins lays within the definition of 'rebirthing' therapy? The canonical literature on the modality of rebirthing begins with the 1974 book 'Rebirthing in the New Age' by Leonard Orr and Sondra Ray. This text makes no mention of the technique used by Watkins. Nobody has produced any references to any subsequent texts on rebirthing which promote such a technique either. This article either needs to substantiate the use of the word 'rebirthing' with a reference to an accepted text on the discipline, or it needs to remove the word 'rebirthing' altogether.
:I always believed it was on April 18/19 2000. However, the FindaGrave site and several other sites say it was 1999. This must mean she was either 9 or 10 when she died.
--] 23:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC).


==C.Watkins==
When I read about it in the newspaper it said she was born in 1988 and died in April 1999. I think the Find-A-Grave site got her year of birth wrong. --User:Carie
Should there be a little more about Watkins - what kind of therapist she was, her qualifications, training etc and how come she came to be doing this? Also Ponder of course. I understand Ponder was licensed in California. Was Watkins ever licensed anywhere?] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 19:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


== Unlicensed? == == External links modified ==


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
The two therapists who killed Candace Newmaker were both legally allowed to practice in Colorado. Connell Watkins had been an unlicensed psychotherapist registered with the State of Colorado, which allowed her to practice, which she had done for over fifteen years in Colorado. Julie Ponder was a marriage and family therapist in California, and under reciprocity agreements was allowed to practice in Colorado. These are facts which came out in trial.


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It was part of the scandal of this case that the little girl was (a) killed during what was claimed to be psychotherapy and (b) killed by persons legally allowed to practice. Additionally, part of the importance of the case was that these convictions were the first time that ''practicing therapists'' were criminally convicted for maltreatment during a therapy session, where the criminality did not involve sexual misconduct.
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060925103407/http://www.guardian.co.uk:80/Archive/Article/0,4273,4206910,00.html to http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4206910,00.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060128133945/http://womenspolicy.org:80/thesource/article.cfm?ArticleID=1855 to http://www.womenspolicy.org/thesource/article.cfm?ArticleID=1855


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Thus, it is both inaccurate and misses the point to describe these therapists as "unlicensed". While some mental-health practitioners would like to place Newmaker's killers as outside the legal framework mental-health practice (licensing), that is only their point of view and is not supported by the facts of the matter.


{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}
I have accordingly improved the article to remove the words "unlicensed" as being wrong, ] and misleading to Wiki readers.


Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 11:59, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
] 14:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
::Provide a citation, please for that. My understanding is that neither therapist was licensed in Colorado. A citation verifying that they two individuals were in fact licensed mental providers is indicated. ] 15:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
Thank you for the opportunity to establish this. The licensure facts as I've stated them are verifiable in ''Attachment Therapy on Trial'' (ISBN 027597675), pp. 44-45, which information was gleaned from trial transcripts. Their licensure status addressed the "reckless" component of the criminal charges. By convicting, the jury settled any question about their culpability deriving from their legal status and professional background. ] 21:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


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::Sorry, I don't see any verification that the two individuals were, in fact, licensed mental health practitioners in Colorado when they committed the crime(s) mentioned. Can you provide a specific citation that is not a secondary source, such as a newspaper article, or a direct link to the trial transcript? ] 22:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080806161320/http://cbs4denver.com:80/local/denver.rebirthing.watkins.2.786701.html to http://cbs4denver.com/local/denver.rebirthing.watkins.2.786701.html


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: and both report the therapists were unlicenced. That should be enough to make the claim and any counter claim would need to be sourced as well. Also, we're after the secondary sources here, we can't use primary sources under the original research provision. ] 22:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}
::As I stated above, the licensure facts as I stated them are verifiable in ''Attachment Therapy on Trial'' (ISBN 027597675), pp. 44-45. So the claim may have been made in good faith, but so is the correction. Since my secondary source (which is peer-reviewed, professionally edited, and from a reputable publisher) takes its facts from the trial transcript, and it specifically relates this matter, it trumps the ''tertiary'' sources cited above. To the extent that they differ from the book on this issue, they are wrong. ] 22:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 20:10, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
:::Strange, please correct me, as I am taking the excerpts from your book out of context:


== Relation to Petscop ARG ==
* on Page 28:
Would just like to point out there is no confirmed or direct link between Candace Newmaker and Petscop. It's purely a fan theory, and for this reason, was removed.
"... April 2000, Jeane Newmaker and Candace were on their way to a small clinic, Connell Watkins Associates, run by the '''unlicensed''' therapist Connell Watkins in her home in Evergreen, Colorado, not far from Denver. Under Colorado law, Watkins, a social worker,
] (]) 20:57, 3 June 2017 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
*on Page 44:
"... it of her. Colorado law did not ask for Watkins to be licensed as a therapist, and even registration of '''unlicensed''' therapists with the state was not needed until 1988, when registration with the state Mental Health Grievance Board became a ..."


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
*from Front Matter:
"... present at her death by suffocation (luring that therapy. This text examines the beliefs of the girl's mother and the '''unlicensed''' therapists, showing that the (heath, though Unintentional, ryas a logical outcome of this form of treatment. (continual on buck flap) ..."


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] 23:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0%2C1299%2CDRMN_15_691211%2C00.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.theguardian.com/Archive/Article/0%2C4273%2C4206910%2C00.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080907130015/http://www.kidscomefirst.info/msoAB8FC.pdf to http://www.kidscomefirst.info/msoAB8FC.pdf


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First, the dust cover is not a part of the source (it wasn't written by the authors) and is irrelevant and not usable as a reliable source. A case could be made that the reference made above was to the entire group of adults, and two of the five ''were'' unlicensed (the "therapeutic" foster parents), but they are not the subject of the present controversy.


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 04:44, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Second, Ponder ''was'' licensed, and the fact of her licensure has been verified by the book. Continuing to refer to her as unlicensed is false and should stop. Ditto with Jeane Newmaker who was also licensed (as a nurse) and was being used during treatment as a "co-therapist".


== Conections to petscop ==
Third, both on page 28 and 44 of the source, the meaning of Watkins's ''unlicensed'' status was discussed and placed into the proper context I described before. To take the term out of context and describe Watkins ''simply'' as unlicensed is to deliberately mislead and misinform the reader; her legal culpability and professional status was much more nuanced than that. I grant that extensive discussion of the meaning of being "registered" to practice psychotherapy in Colorado would be awkward in an encyclopedia, but if the term is used, then such a discussion ''should'' or must take place to properly inform the reader. It is avoided, however, by not mentioning it out of context, which is what I've been doing by removing the references (which are wrong in the case of Ponder in any case).


I'm sure you all have heard this one if you are up to date on new YouTube series. Petscop is a supposed to be an unfinished ps1 game that a man most likely named Paul found. Its almost like Pokémon however after he enters a code the music and when he leaves the area he is in a possible under realm confirmed later in the series and after an hour of searching he finds a cellar door and has no idea how to open it. In the next video he finds the door in 5 minuets and has to leave the room and the door opens by its self. This is the first connection. The door opens on the exact day that the therapists were released from a 16 year term in prison because they killed Candace Newmaker. That is all I post right now. I feel as if Paul watches me and the olive green butt for a face character is to.<ref>Petscop wiki fandom</ref><ref>Petscop youtube</ref> <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:16, 23 August 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Fourth, mentioning the licensure twice (and indisputably erroneously in the case of Ponder) is gilding the lily, especially when I came up with a reasonable solution for the second mention (i.e., using the defendants' surnames) instead of characterizing them.
{{reflist-talk}}


== "Creepypasta" ==
Fifth, the way is "unlicensed" is used in this article is unjustifiably POV. No justification for inclusion of this characterization has ever been tendered.


Someone posted a YouTube video about some apparent connection between some game and this subject. The video is both a ] and, being the first to posit such a connection, a '']'' source. It is also not a publication with editorial oversight and a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (the vast majority of YouTube videos are not considered reliable sources by Misplaced Pages standards). We need good sources (defined by ]) to include such material. &mdash; <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></span> \\ 03:24, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
] 08:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
:{{ping|The Mysterious El Willstro}} &mdash; <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></span> \\ 03:25, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
:BTW even if it ''were'' inspired by this subject, we still wouldn't be including it unless it received some major coverage by good sources, as it's trivia and doesn't add to our knowledge of the subject. &mdash; <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></span> \\ 03:26, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
::BTW sorry to be a bit harsh. People use Misplaced Pages many times every day to spam creepypasta (and every other meme) as well as to spam various YouTube channels/videos. The vast majority material posted to YouTube is ] and about as reliable as a facebook post or a tweet. Plenty of exceptions, sure, but there needs to be a good reason to include according to ], ], ], etc. &mdash; <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></span> \\ 03:39, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Relegated to bullet point in "See also" Section. This takes care of ] objections, seeing how a "See also" bullet point is obviously not the same as an entire Section. ] (]) 20:45, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
::::Works for me, since it's mentioned on that article it makes sense. Thanks. I'm skeptical about its inclusion on the ] page, too, based just on that video, but I'll leave it to others to determine that. &mdash; <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></span> \\ 22:01, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


== "Creepypasta, 2023" ==
==Unlicensed and Book and Reversion to NPOV==
Just wanted to add that if we are going to include Petscop into the article, we should do it very respectfully. This is the page of a girl who was horrifically murdered after a decade of abuse; my heart goes out to her and I wish someone loved her in her lifetime. If Petscop is going to be mentioned make sure you don't fucking desecrate this page into some place to spew out stupid lore for some creepypasta. I'm not sure if I worded what I wanted to say eloquently but I hope you get the idea I'm trying to convey. ] (]) 13:52, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
:::So I have reverted the page back since the therapists were clearly unlicensed per the newspaper article. In addition several of the edits made were not NPOV, requiring reversion.


:RIP '''Candace''' <s>Newmaker</s> <s>Elmore</s>
::question: is it acceptable for Mr. Sarner to list his own book in the reading section?
:I'd like to quote Muhammad Ali: "'Cassius Clay' is a slave name. I didn't choose it and I don't want it. I am Muhammad Ali, a free name – it means beloved of God, and I insist people use it when people speak to me." ] (]) 13:58, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

::The changes from verified "unlicensed" to licensed should now stop.

] 23:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

An editor should be careful and specific about which edits are thought to be not NPOV before reverting another editor's hard work wholesale. For example, what is not NPOV about stating that Candace was killed at a home in Evergreen and not in Golden? Because it happens to be the geographical location of a lot of leading attachment therapists?

The therapists (plural) were ''not'' clearly unlicensed, as a reliable source has stated otherwise. It is POV to insist upon mistaken and misleading information be included, especially when the inclusion serves no good purpose.

It is a settled question that a reliable source about a topic can be listed in a reading section. Besides, I didn't list it in the first place.

The reversion is to a version which is, in my opinion, hopelessly inaccurate, biased and POV. Reversions to that version should stop.

] 08:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

:It is clear to this editor that the "therpists" were unlicensed in the state of Colorado, which is what is stated in the article. This is a fact and so should remain. ] 14:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

==Warning: discontinue your reverts==

Mr. Sarner, please stop your reverts. If you disagree, state that here and then follow the citations and consensus. Removing items from the Also see section, and other reverts you have made do not represent a NPOV. Please stop.

The references clearly state they were unlicensed, inlcuding the book you and your colleagues at ] wrote as cited by another editor in the previous section.
] 12:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

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Attribution to 'Rebirthing'?

Where is the supporting evidence that the so-called 'therapy' delivered by Watkins lays within the definition of 'rebirthing' therapy? The canonical literature on the modality of rebirthing begins with the 1974 book 'Rebirthing in the New Age' by Leonard Orr and Sondra Ray. This text makes no mention of the technique used by Watkins. Nobody has produced any references to any subsequent texts on rebirthing which promote such a technique either. This article either needs to substantiate the use of the word 'rebirthing' with a reference to an accepted text on the discipline, or it needs to remove the word 'rebirthing' altogether.

C.Watkins

Should there be a little more about Watkins - what kind of therapist she was, her qualifications, training etc and how come she came to be doing this? Also Ponder of course. I understand Ponder was licensed in California. Was Watkins ever licensed anywhere?Fainites 19:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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Relation to Petscop ARG

Would just like to point out there is no confirmed or direct link between Candace Newmaker and Petscop. It's purely a fan theory, and for this reason, was removed. Egonautt (talk) 20:57, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

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Conections to petscop

I'm sure you all have heard this one if you are up to date on new YouTube series. Petscop is a supposed to be an unfinished ps1 game that a man most likely named Paul found. Its almost like Pokémon however after he enters a code the music and when he leaves the area he is in a possible under realm confirmed later in the series and after an hour of searching he finds a cellar door and has no idea how to open it. In the next video he finds the door in 5 minuets and has to leave the room and the door opens by its self. This is the first connection. The door opens on the exact day that the therapists were released from a 16 year term in prison because they killed Candace Newmaker. That is all I post right now. I feel as if Paul watches me and the olive green butt for a face character is to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petscop132 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. Petscop wiki fandom
  2. Petscop youtube

"Creepypasta"

Someone posted a YouTube video about some apparent connection between some game and this subject. The video is both a self-published source and, being the first to posit such a connection, a primary source. It is also not a publication with editorial oversight and a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (the vast majority of YouTube videos are not considered reliable sources by Misplaced Pages standards). We need good sources (defined by WP:RS) to include such material. — Rhododendrites \\ 03:24, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

@The Mysterious El Willstro: — Rhododendrites \\ 03:25, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
BTW even if it were inspired by this subject, we still wouldn't be including it unless it received some major coverage by good sources, as it's trivia and doesn't add to our knowledge of the subject. — Rhododendrites \\ 03:26, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
BTW sorry to be a bit harsh. People use Misplaced Pages many times every day to spam creepypasta (and every other meme) as well as to spam various YouTube channels/videos. The vast majority material posted to YouTube is self-published and about as reliable as a facebook post or a tweet. Plenty of exceptions, sure, but there needs to be a good reason to include according to WP:RS, WP:WEIGHT, WP:FRINGE, etc. — Rhododendrites \\ 03:39, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
Relegated to bullet point in "See also" Section. This takes care of WP:Weight objections, seeing how a "See also" bullet point is obviously not the same as an entire Section. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 20:45, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
Works for me, since it's mentioned on that article it makes sense. Thanks. I'm skeptical about its inclusion on the creepypasta page, too, based just on that video, but I'll leave it to others to determine that. — Rhododendrites \\ 22:01, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

"Creepypasta, 2023"

Just wanted to add that if we are going to include Petscop into the article, we should do it very respectfully. This is the page of a girl who was horrifically murdered after a decade of abuse; my heart goes out to her and I wish someone loved her in her lifetime. If Petscop is going to be mentioned make sure you don't fucking desecrate this page into some place to spew out stupid lore for some creepypasta. I'm not sure if I worded what I wanted to say eloquently but I hope you get the idea I'm trying to convey. NotQualified (talk) 13:52, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

RIP Candace Newmaker Elmore
I'd like to quote Muhammad Ali: "'Cassius Clay' is a slave name. I didn't choose it and I don't want it. I am Muhammad Ali, a free name – it means beloved of God, and I insist people use it when people speak to me." NotQualified (talk) 13:58, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
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