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{{oldafdfull|result='''Keep''' nomination withdrawn |date=July 4th, 2006|votepage=Extreme Warfare }} {{oldafdfull|result='''Keep''' nomination withdrawn |date=July 4th, 2006|votepage=Extreme Warfare }}
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==I just want to know one thing==
How is this article still here when the article on Mat Dickie (MDickie Software)was removed, citing relevance/notability over a year ago. Adam Ryland has produced all of two actual games, and the installed base for his commercial versions through Grey Dog Software number in the hundreds at best, while MDickie published an array of distinct commercial titles, as well as the updated versions of his wrestling franchise, during the same period. It seems like there's a snob aboard Wikipediawho thinks Ryland's games are relevant while Dickie's aren't, even though they both produced PC wrestling simulators and sell them through the internet (save that Dickie's first commercial game was published physically by a third party, and that Dickie's games have a much larger install base, on par with many more polished commercial games).

As someone who put hours into that one article that covered all of Mat Dickie's games only to see it deleted (it was certainly no "vanity" article, and it's deletion marked the end of my contributing time to this site), I ask you: is THIS article on just one of Adam Ryland's games (which probably hasn't been purchased by a hundred people) any more "relevant?" ] (]) 04:02, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

==Old, unsectioned comments==
This reads like an advert to me. (unsigned) This reads like an advert to me. (unsigned)


Line 20: Line 31:
- Advertisement: I think this article is not much more than an advertisement for Extreme Warfare. - Advertisement: I think this article is not much more than an advertisement for Extreme Warfare.
- Cliche/jargon: Just look at the first paragraph. "card based role-playing game based on wrestling." That means...what exactly? "extremely low-tech 2-player promoter game" huh? And the same reaction is sparked on my part by the many other similar cliches/jargon that run throughout the article.] 21:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC) - Cliche/jargon: Just look at the first paragraph. "card based role-playing game based on wrestling." That means...what exactly? "extremely low-tech 2-player promoter game" huh? And the same reaction is sparked on my part by the many other similar cliches/jargon that run throughout the article.] 21:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that WP:WEB applies to this, it's not exactly a website. ] 09:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
::::Sorry, I meant ].] 20:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


==Defense== ==Defense==
Line 31: Line 45:


What exactly do you mean by "commercially available"?] 23:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC) What exactly do you mean by "commercially available"?] 23:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

For sale, not free.
And the Extreme Warfare games (all freeware) are not available to download form any official website, but yeah there are probably still some places to download them on the internet.
--] 11:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::Where are they commercially availab.] 23:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
:::Can you link me directly to the pages on which they're available?(thanks in advance)] 12:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
They used eLiscense, so you could buy the full version by entering your purchase info into the demo version which was/is downloadable from their publishers websites (.400 Studios for 2004, Grey Dog Software for 2005). You can also buy a CD version of 2005 from Grey Dog's website. --] 10:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/tew/ for TEW2005, 2004 is no longer available since .400 Studios went out of business, but here's a link to the .400 profile page from Gamespot: http://www.gamespot.com/pages/company/index.php?company=72337
Both companies specialized in sports management games for pc.--] 13:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
::::Well the GreyDog Software group is just an independent company with no real credibility in my opinion; Gamespot appears to have more credibility as it looks like they sell PS2, X-Box, etc. games.] 23:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Gamespot is a gaming news site, one of the top ones around. I just provided that link to show that .400 did indeed publish TEW 2004. Though, the fact that TEW2004, 2005, and even Extreme Warfare Revenge have gotten coverage on Gamespot, is a good indicator that the series is notable enough to exist on Wiki. Just cause the games publishers aren't big names, or just that EWR was freeware, doesn't mean they are nothing. Plenty of indie and freeware gaming stuff is covered on Misplaced Pages.--] 00:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
:Just because a notable web site gives a game coverage doesn't mean that that "is a good indicator that the series is notable enough to exist on Wiki." That is one of many identifying aspects of a topic's notability.] 16:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
::If a site like GameSpot gives coverage to this game, that's enough to warrant its notability. ] 20:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
:::No, actually its not.] 00:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
::::Yes, actually it is. From ]: "The software package has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company itself". Wrestling Spirit meets that criteria so its notability is warranted.
:::::1 source is not "multiple."] 02:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
::::::Gamespy, Gamestats, Inside Pulsa and several others contain non trivial works about this game. ] 02:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Inside Pulse is not at the caliber of Gamespy or Gamestats, and it says "several," and Gamespy and Gamestats only make up 2.] 02:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
::::::::It doesn't matter if according to you Inside Pulse is not at the caliber of Gamespy. There are multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company that makes this game, so this game satisfies that criteria and thus it is relevant ] 02:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC).
:::::::::You've only provided 2, not "multiple." And Inside Pulse is not really "independent of the company that makes this game."] 02:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::Inside Pulse has no relation to the company nor to the person who made this series, so it's an independent source. Other sources includes Yahoo!, NeoSeeker, Metacritic and IGN, to name just a few.
:::::::::::Link me to the Yahoo! and IGN sources.] 03:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::::Multiple does not imply several, if the quote provided above is accurate. Technically, multiple is two. Further, Gamespy and Gamestats are two, but Gamespot itself was also provided as a source, as was Inside Pulse. And since you've given no information to denote it's lack of independence, it's hardly fair to discount it as a source (yes, I'm aware this is old, but I wanted to put it to rest) ] 05:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
That is not the only reason, but it is a reason. It was already decided that it should exist, anyway. And the most if not all the tags do not apply, for reasons I already stated.--] 21:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I think its been pretty much shown to be notable enough to be here on Misplaced Pages. I have removed the Importance and Notability templates. I don't feel that this reads like an advert or contains too much jargon. It is about as clear as most other wrestling articles are, to the fans. As for advert, it really isn't. The statements made are good enough in terms of npov. Maybe a bit of cleanup is need on the TEW section, but the EW, EWD, and EWR's all fine. ] 17:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

just because you havent heard of something doesnt mean it doesnt have a huge following, also ANY freeware game is in itself something that someone may seek reference for
:The IGN and cnet reviews are nothing more than "media reprints" which are specifically "Excluded" as invalid; Please see ].] 18:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
::Metacritic lists 6 reviews of it, which all seem like non-trivial mentions. The {{tl|relevance}} tag seems silly since you can just remove everything you don't feel is relevant. If someone puts them back they obviously feel those are relevant and the problem is solved (and if they don't, same outcome). The {{tl|linkless}} template isn't very useful since this is nowhere close to being an orphan anymore, there's no point in making links to it just for the sake of having them. ] 20:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
:::Frictionless Insight, Game Chronicles, and Operation Sports all don't have Misplaced Pages articles. What makes them "non-trivial sources"? With the other sites falling under the exclusion rule (cnet, etc), that leaves netjak, Gamespot, and Computer Games Magazine, and I don't know if you can consider the first two that notable.
::::You seem to misunderstand the whole guideline. Now you're arguing about the notability of the sources instead of the mentions. You could iterate that forever, requesting more sources for each new source, which isn't very fruitful in the long run. So you tell me, how are they not "non-trivial sources", when the _reviews themselves_ are quoted on a third-party source (metacritic)? The real trivial sources are things like blog or message board postings. The trivial mentions are prices in a catalog or passing mentions, these obviously aren't either. - ] 08:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
::::Addendum: are you seriously claiming that gamespot isn't notable either? Its alexa rank is 201, and it's listed as the top ranked games news and reviews site on the Internet. - ] 12:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

"The {{tl|relevance}} tag seems silly since you can just remove everything you don't feel is relevant" - OK, it seems silly to you...I think there's an excess of relative info in the entry.] 22:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
:(Actually, I meant the {{tl|Content}} tag, which says the thing about relevance, sorry). The point is, you're misusing the tag. You're supposed to remove things you don't feel are relevant (since they would not belong on an article), the tag is only supposed to go in when someone has removed a part of the article that you feel IS relevant. As it is now, the tag is supposedly there so that someone else can remove information that YOU feel is irrelevant, which is stupid, since they would just be guessing what that would be. - ] 08:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

<blockquote><div style="padding:1em;border:1px solid grey">

==Request for Comment: Should Tag Be There?==
This is a dispute about whether the tags that have been put up on top of the page should be there, and what should be done with the page if they are needed. 02:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

;Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

I don't see a reason for the tags being there, as this article is fine. The subject is notable enough to warrant one. The person who put up all the tags has offered to do nothing to fix what they think is wrong. 02:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

</div></blockquote>

:I guess the point is moot since the only person who wanted to have the tags didn't reply to the discussion and has been blocked indefinitely for unrelated issues . - ] 09:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not really moot aymore, is it? Now that it keeps being reverted by an IP probably obtained by using a proxy. This needs to be finalized, or it'll go on forever. ] 20:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Notability question stands (See JB196's 8/20, 20:04 edit). Relevence of particular info WAS removed. This cannot be denied.] 21:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Now you're just rehashing the same bullet points that you used in your edit summaries weeks ago. Please reply to the comments above. It has become painfully obvious that you don't even read what you're reverting to, since you keep adding duplicate templates every single time. - ] 21:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::I absolutely agree. This needs to be resolved, and that's not happening. It seems that now the reverts are just being done for the hell of it. I've been considering Mediation for quite some time, but I'm not sure it will help. I'm thinking it might really need a decision by Arbitration, but I don't know. Suggestions? ] 21:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::The RFC might get someone to look it over later, so we should probably wait for a while. The one user who did edit it was indefinitely blocked, and while he's blocked and using obvious sockpuppets you can revert him on sight, especially when he's just being disruptive. I sprotected the article since I haven't seen a single other editor besides AOL sockpuppets of the same user editing it. Helpful opinions from anyone are appreciated. - ] 21:36, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Now he's resorting to editing the Talk page. Is there really no end to this? ] 04:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
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I just want to know one thing

How is this article still here when the article on Mat Dickie (MDickie Software)was removed, citing relevance/notability over a year ago. Adam Ryland has produced all of two actual games, and the installed base for his commercial versions through Grey Dog Software number in the hundreds at best, while MDickie published an array of distinct commercial titles, as well as the updated versions of his wrestling franchise, during the same period. It seems like there's a snob aboard Wikipediawho thinks Ryland's games are relevant while Dickie's aren't, even though they both produced PC wrestling simulators and sell them through the internet (save that Dickie's first commercial game was published physically by a third party, and that Dickie's games have a much larger install base, on par with many more polished commercial games).

As someone who put hours into that one article that covered all of Mat Dickie's games only to see it deleted (it was certainly no "vanity" article, and it's deletion marked the end of my contributing time to this site), I ask you: is THIS article on just one of Adam Ryland's games (which probably hasn't been purchased by a hundred people) any more "relevant?" 75.105.128.37 (talk) 04:02, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Old, unsectioned comments

This reads like an advert to me. (unsigned)

Agreed. That said, the information is sound and well-researched, though I might be inclined to bring up questions of notability. I'll take a look at revising it somewhat in the next few days, but other people's thoughts would be interesting. --Lawlore 00:11, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, that comment was refering to this version before I expanded and cleaned up the article. Either way, any way of improving the article sounds good to me. --Oakster 10:17, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Tags at beginning of article

The tags at the beginning of the article state that the information is disputed, and uses excessive cliches and jargon. Their is no discussion on this matter on the talkpage, and I disagree with theses statements, and will remove them in roughly a week, if no reason is given for this here. Discuss. - JohnstonDJ 14:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh and I agree with not many articles linking here, so Ill do my best to add in articles like business emulation, etx, if it is relevant. but until then i think that tag should stay. - JohnstonDJ 14:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

My concerns about this article

- The importance tag is warranted as the article doesn't in my opinion address the importance of Extreme Warfare and why it warrants a Misplaced Pages entry. - As far as Notability, I don't think it meets WP:WEB. - There is a lot of stuff which I don't think is relevent that's included in the article. Just one example is "After release of EW 9000, Extreme Warfare met its main rival. A game called Promotion Wars was released by fellow British programmer Adam Jennings, taking some inspiration from both Extreme Warfare 9000 and Championship Manager. After the game's release, some of Extreme Warfare's fan base shifted their interest over to this game when released in October 2000." Why does this matter? - Advertisement: I think this article is not much more than an advertisement for Extreme Warfare. - Cliche/jargon: Just look at the first paragraph. "card based role-playing game based on wrestling." That means...what exactly? "extremely low-tech 2-player promoter game" huh? And the same reaction is sparked on my part by the many other similar cliches/jargon that run throughout the article.JB196 21:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that WP:WEB applies to this, it's not exactly a website. 70.69.176.34 09:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant WP:SOFRWARE.JB196 20:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Defense

- Notability: TEW 2005 (and 2004 before it) were commercially available PC games. There are wiki articles about other such sports management games. An example of another one that started off freeware and became a commercial product is EHM, a hockey simulator that Sega now publishes. Theres even a wiki article about one is still freeware, Bygfoot, a football managment game.

- Advetisement: It talks a lot about the history of the series. Only one of the games is even available anymore, so the majority can't be considered "advertising".

- Cliche: "card based role-playing game based on wrestling." That means...what exactly? " It means a tabletop game about wrestling, that uses cards. Apparently that was the first version of this game before it was turned into a computer game. Promoter game is referring to the concept where you play as a wrestling promoter, instead of a wrestler. This game is basically the biggest "promoter game" around.--4.156.6.89 17:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Extreme Warfare is still available via download and other means.

What exactly do you mean by "commercially available"?JB196 23:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

For sale, not free. And the Extreme Warfare games (all freeware) are not available to download form any official website, but yeah there are probably still some places to download them on the internet. --4.156.6.211 11:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Where are they commercially availab.JB196 23:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Can you link me directly to the pages on which they're available?(thanks in advance)JB196 12:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

They used eLiscense, so you could buy the full version by entering your purchase info into the demo version which was/is downloadable from their publishers websites (.400 Studios for 2004, Grey Dog Software for 2005). You can also buy a CD version of 2005 from Grey Dog's website. --4.156.6.251 10:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/tew/ for TEW2005, 2004 is no longer available since .400 Studios went out of business, but here's a link to the .400 profile page from Gamespot: http://www.gamespot.com/pages/company/index.php?company=72337 Both companies specialized in sports management games for pc.--4.156.6.73 13:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well the GreyDog Software group is just an independent company with no real credibility in my opinion; Gamespot appears to have more credibility as it looks like they sell PS2, X-Box, etc. games.JB196 23:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Gamespot is a gaming news site, one of the top ones around. I just provided that link to show that .400 did indeed publish TEW 2004. Though, the fact that TEW2004, 2005, and even Extreme Warfare Revenge have gotten coverage on Gamespot, is a good indicator that the series is notable enough to exist on Wiki. Just cause the games publishers aren't big names, or just that EWR was freeware, doesn't mean they are nothing. Plenty of indie and freeware gaming stuff is covered on Misplaced Pages.--4.156.6.184 00:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Just because a notable web site gives a game coverage doesn't mean that that "is a good indicator that the series is notable enough to exist on Wiki." That is one of many identifying aspects of a topic's notability.JB196 16:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
If a site like GameSpot gives coverage to this game, that's enough to warrant its notability. 200.121.200.200 20:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
No, actually its not.JB196 00:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, actually it is. From WP:SOFTWARE: "The software package has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company itself". Wrestling Spirit meets that criteria so its notability is warranted.
1 source is not "multiple."JB196 02:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Gamespy, Gamestats, Inside Pulsa and several others contain non trivial works about this game. 200.121.200.200 02:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Inside Pulse is not at the caliber of Gamespy or Gamestats, and it says "several," and Gamespy and Gamestats only make up 2.JB196 02:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if according to you Inside Pulse is not at the caliber of Gamespy. There are multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company that makes this game, so this game satisfies that criteria and thus it is relevant 200.121.200.200 02:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC).
You've only provided 2, not "multiple." And Inside Pulse is not really "independent of the company that makes this game."JB196 02:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Inside Pulse has no relation to the company nor to the person who made this series, so it's an independent source. Other sources includes Yahoo!, NeoSeeker, Metacritic and IGN, to name just a few.
Link me to the Yahoo! and IGN sources.JB196 03:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Multiple does not imply several, if the quote provided above is accurate. Technically, multiple is two. Further, Gamespy and Gamestats are two, but Gamespot itself was also provided as a source, as was Inside Pulse. And since you've given no information to denote it's lack of independence, it's hardly fair to discount it as a source (yes, I'm aware this is old, but I wanted to put it to rest) Darquis 05:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

That is not the only reason, but it is a reason. It was already decided that it should exist, anyway. And the most if not all the tags do not apply, for reasons I already stated.--4.156.6.76 21:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC) I think its been pretty much shown to be notable enough to be here on Misplaced Pages. I have removed the Importance and Notability templates. I don't feel that this reads like an advert or contains too much jargon. It is about as clear as most other wrestling articles are, to the fans. As for advert, it really isn't. The statements made are good enough in terms of npov. Maybe a bit of cleanup is need on the TEW section, but the EW, EWD, and EWR's all fine. Brad Blaze 17:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

just because you havent heard of something doesnt mean it doesnt have a huge following, also ANY freeware game is in itself something that someone may seek reference for

The IGN and cnet reviews are nothing more than "media reprints" which are specifically "Excluded" as invalid; Please see WP:SOFTWARE.JB196 18:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Metacritic lists 6 reviews of it, which all seem like non-trivial mentions. The {{relevance}} tag seems silly since you can just remove everything you don't feel is relevant. If someone puts them back they obviously feel those are relevant and the problem is solved (and if they don't, same outcome). The {{linkless}} template isn't very useful since this is nowhere close to being an orphan anymore, there's no point in making links to it just for the sake of having them. Bobet 20:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Frictionless Insight, Game Chronicles, and Operation Sports all don't have Misplaced Pages articles. What makes them "non-trivial sources"? With the other sites falling under the exclusion rule (cnet, etc), that leaves netjak, Gamespot, and Computer Games Magazine, and I don't know if you can consider the first two that notable.
You seem to misunderstand the whole guideline. Now you're arguing about the notability of the sources instead of the mentions. You could iterate that forever, requesting more sources for each new source, which isn't very fruitful in the long run. So you tell me, how are they not "non-trivial sources", when the _reviews themselves_ are quoted on a third-party source (metacritic)? The real trivial sources are things like blog or message board postings. The trivial mentions are prices in a catalog or passing mentions, these obviously aren't either. - Bobet 08:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Addendum: are you seriously claiming that gamespot isn't notable either? Its alexa rank is 201, and it's listed as the top ranked games news and reviews site on the Internet. - Bobet 12:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

"The {{relevance}} tag seems silly since you can just remove everything you don't feel is relevant" - OK, it seems silly to you...I think there's an excess of relative info in the entry.JB196 22:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

(Actually, I meant the {{Content}} tag, which says the thing about relevance, sorry). The point is, you're misusing the tag. You're supposed to remove things you don't feel are relevant (since they would not belong on an article), the tag is only supposed to go in when someone has removed a part of the article that you feel IS relevant. As it is now, the tag is supposedly there so that someone else can remove information that YOU feel is irrelevant, which is stupid, since they would just be guessing what that would be. - Bobet 08:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Should Tag Be There?

This is a dispute about whether the tags that have been put up on top of the page should be there, and what should be done with the page if they are needed. 02:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

I don't see a reason for the tags being there, as this article is fine. The subject is notable enough to warrant one. The person who put up all the tags has offered to do nothing to fix what they think is wrong. 02:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess the point is moot since the only person who wanted to have the tags didn't reply to the discussion and has been blocked indefinitely for unrelated issues . - Bobet 09:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not really moot aymore, is it? Now that it keeps being reverted by an IP probably obtained by using a proxy. This needs to be finalized, or it'll go on forever. Akkifokkusu 20:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Notability question stands (See JB196's 8/20, 20:04 edit). Relevence of particular info WAS removed. This cannot be denied.64.12.116.9 21:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Now you're just rehashing the same bullet points that you used in your edit summaries weeks ago. Please reply to the comments above. It has become painfully obvious that you don't even read what you're reverting to, since you keep adding duplicate templates every single time. - Bobet 21:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I absolutely agree. This needs to be resolved, and that's not happening. It seems that now the reverts are just being done for the hell of it. I've been considering Mediation for quite some time, but I'm not sure it will help. I'm thinking it might really need a decision by Arbitration, but I don't know. Suggestions? Akkifokkusu 21:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
The RFC might get someone to look it over later, so we should probably wait for a while. The one user who did edit it was indefinitely blocked, and while he's blocked and using obvious sockpuppets you can revert him on sight, especially when he's just being disruptive. I sprotected the article since I haven't seen a single other editor besides AOL sockpuppets of the same user editing it. Helpful opinions from anyone are appreciated. - Bobet 21:36, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Now he's resorting to editing the Talk page. Is there really no end to this? Akkifokkusu 04:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

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