| Revision as of 14:41, 15 July 2015 editJytdog (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers187,951 edits →Looking for Help with Non-NPOV Content: note that comment was changed.← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 16:09, 14 December 2024 edit undoClueBot III (talk | contribs)Bots1,373,147 editsm Archiving 19 discussions to Talk:Kaiser Permanente/Archive 2. (BOT) | ||
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| == Citation needed == | |||
| ==Archive== | |||
| I have created an archive of the old discussions. There were no current discussions about improving this article, and the talk page was really long. In case anyone needs to know in the future, I used the ] method. ] (]) 03:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ==Fair use rationale for Image:Kaiser Permanente.png== | |||
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| ] (]) 22:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Lupoe murders == | |||
| We have to be careful what we write. BLP is for people, not entities, but even entities deserve fair consideration. We don't know if a clerk told Lupoe to kill himself. Disclaimer: I don't have any relationship, past or present, with Kaiser. In fact, I don't think particularly highly of them ] (]) 02:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :We do know what we read in reliable sources. We can report what they say, but need to make sure we don't go beyond what they say. However I'm not sure that this tragedy belongs in the article. I'm sure that, unfortunately, many corporations have fired people who've gone on to commit suicide. Even if the boss did make the alleged comment, it does not make the corporation culpable. <b>] ] </b> 02:27, 29 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
| * Good point. Agree. ] (]) 05:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Someone deleted the material, and it was restored, so I looked into it to see if there was more reporting - if the story had "legs". The only two reports in the past week have been a general editorial about seeking assistance before situations become desperate and a report about the funerals. The latter includes the information that the parents were fired "for trying to defraud their employer". Rather than fill out the story with this unhappy detail, I again think it's better to remove the material from this article so that's what I'm goping to do. It's a sad case, but it really isn't about Kaiser. <b>] ] </b> 22:55, 5 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::So I am not sure who is behind the that has multiple times cut the story and references both from the KP article and from the when the story happened. I personally am fine with Lupoe not being in the KP article, feel that as they are dead, they cannot defend against the charge of "trying to defraud their employer" (which I feel is suspect, but what ever), and believe that Kaiser did not pull the trigger on Lupoe to pull the trigger on his family. I do believe it is part of a larger story reflective of Kaiser's handling and support of it's employees as well as reflective of the economy of Wilmington. But that is not what the Misplaced Pages article is about. | |||
| :::Thank you for letting me having my say. Peace, ] (]) 00:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Dubious? == | |||
| "One of the most dubious ventures of the Permanente Company is Kaiser Permanente Ventures, a venture capital firm that invests in emerging medical technologies." Why is this dubious? ] (]) 02:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :It's ]y at best, and likely just a random editor's opinion. I suspect the editor that inserted it may find it "dubious" that a not-for-profit health plan has a for-profit investment arm, but it's unsourced and ought to be removed. <span class='nounderlines' style="text-decoration:none"><font face="tahoma"><font color="#df1620">]</font> <font color="#6b6c6d">]</font></font></span> 18:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Article not NPOV == | |||
| In reading through this article, it appears to have a flavor more like a polemic antipathetic to Henry Kaiser and appears editorial and very POV in nature, especially in the HISTORY section. I would suggest the following: 1) if there is serious evidence that Henry Kaiser's re-involvement with the organization caused problems, then remove judgmental words like 'micromanaged' and cite sources with hard numbers, ie show with properly footnoted citations that revenue X1 and membership X2 went to some lower levels Y1 and Y2. 2) while some of the language used here may be quoted from footnoted sources, it is still clearly judgmental in nature and needs to be toned down to meet the ] criterion "Prefer non-judgmental language"; 3 Follow the ] standards throughout the article... I see from a preceding post here that much of the editing here has been done by a former KP employee with an ax grind... perhaps a more neutral editor who has access to the mentioned and footnoted sources and to other citations on the subject that balances the OPINION shown here can come up with a reasonable re-wording ] (]) 03:33, 17 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :The article is neutral; you're reading too much into it. I drafted most of the first part of the history section, which was based on a history of Kaiser Permanente that was done with KP's cooperation (but was not sponsored by it) and was clearly pro-KP and pro-HMO. There was a LOT of detail in there about how Henry Kaiser came in and along with the hapless Garfield nearly ran KP into the ground until Clifford Keene took over. But I didn't have the time or energy to put all that in, plus 90% of people aren't interested in reading all that tedious detail (this is an encyclopedia, not a compendium). That's why I wrote that section the way I did, to ''summarize'' the content of the book so readers interested in the gory details can go pursue them if they need it. --] (]) 05:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ==]== | |||
| This Canadian mental health organization shares a logo, thus is somehow connected. a link should be provided, not sure where, or whether it deserves a full section.] (]) 08:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :The "somehow connected" appears to be via people, and disclaims any institutional links. The Canadian group's states | |||
| ::"In 1985, Mr. Kaiser established and funded the Kaiser Foundation as a separate and distinct entity from other Kaiser family endeavours." | |||
| ::"Mr. Kaiser and his family have a long history in the not-for-profit health care field through the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation and through the Kaiser Permanente HMO. Kaiser Permanente was the first HMO established in the United States. Mr. Kaiser is Chairman Emeritus of the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation." | |||
| :So there may be some linkage to the ], but there appears to be no formal connection to ]. <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">''']''' ]</span> 16:55, 12 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ==Medical centers== | |||
| with 35 medical centers (hospitals), i think we should have them included in the article. any of them which offer Emergency Services should have their own articles, esp. if they have high ] ratings.] (]) 03:16, 1 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==UK/British health service (NHS)== | |||
| The reference to the NHS and UK Department of Health is too favourable to Kaiser Permanente (KP). The study was conducted more than 10 years ago and its impact on NHS/UK health services is vastly overstated. The issue of health care reform in the UK is extremely politically sensitive at the moment and the KP/UK health connection here is written in a manner which seems to overstate its influence, coming across as politically biased towards certain party political ideas. It's just not very objective. | |||
| == Adding Board of Directors and National Leadership == | |||
| Greetings. The "Governance" section is a bit outdated and I would like to add a listing for Kaiser Permanente's current Boards of Directors and national leadership. I have included URLs for each leader's executive biography from Kaiser Permanente's corporate news website; in addition, this URL can serve as a third-party citation for this data: http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/people.asp?privcapId=173830 | |||
| The suggested addition begins below. Thank you for your consideration. | |||
| Board of Directors | |||
| Chairman and Chief Executive Officer | |||
| Senior vice president and chief compliance and privacy officer | |||
| Kaiser Permanente National Leaders | |||
| Chairman and Chief Executive Officer | |||
| Executive director, The Permanente Federation, LLC | |||
| Executive vice president, Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and Health Plan; Group president, Kaiser Permanente Northern California and Mid-Atlantic States; President, Kaiser Permanente Northern California | |||
| , MD, MPH, MACP Executive vice president, Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and Health Plan; Group president, Kaiser Permanente Southern California and Hawaii; President, Kaiser Permanente Southern California | |||
| Executive vice president, Hospitals, Quality and Care Delivery Excellence; chief medical officer, Medicare Advantage, Cost and Prescription Drug Plans | |||
| Executive vice president and chief information officer | |||
| Executive vice president and chief financial officer, Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and Health Plan | |||
| This is from the third paragraph | |||
| Executive vice president Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and Health Plan, Inc.; Group president, Kaiser Permanente Colorado, Northwest and Georgia; President, Kaiser Foundation Health Plan of Colorado | |||
| However, Kaiser has had disputes with its employees' unions, repeatedly faced civil and criminal charges for falsification of records and patient dumping, faced action by regulators over the quality of care it provided, especially to patients with mental health issues, and has faced criticism from activists and action from regulators over the size of its cash reserves. | |||
| Executive vice president, Health Plan Operations | |||
| Where are the citations? | |||
| Senior vice president, Government Relations | |||
| Senior vice president, Community Benefit, Research and Health Policy | |||
| Senior vice president and chief Human Resources officer, Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and Health Plan | |||
| Associate executive director, Quality, The Permanente Federation | |||
| Senior vice president, Corporate Development, Care Delivery Strategy and Venture Investments | |||
| Associate executive director, Clinical Care and Innovation, The Permanente Federation, Senior medical director and executive director, Care Management Institute | |||
| Senior vice president and general counsel | |||
| ] (]) 23:05, 13 September 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Group Health acquisition == | |||
| :I've added a section for the board of directors. I didn't find Misplaced Pages bios for any of the directors. I'm not sure the rest of the org chart would add much to the article. Given limited resources, keeping this sort of information up-to-date is a challenge for Misplaced Pages. It might be more useful to direct users to an official Kaiser website where they could find this info. Best regards,—] (]) 00:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC) | |||
| Shouldn’t there be some mention of the acquisition (if that’s the right term) of Group Health? | |||
| == Violation of ] detected == | |||
| (I see one earlier mention of doing so here on the Talk page, from 2017, but it didn’t get implemented.) ] (]) 18:02, 20 February 2020 (UTC) | |||
| The following sentence appears to violate ]: "Historians now believe then-President Richard Nixon specifically had Kaiser Permanente in mind when he signed the Health Maintenance Organization Act of 1973, as the organization was mentioned in an Oval Office discussion of the Act, where John Ehrlichman characterized Kaiser's philosophy thus: "All the incentives are toward less medical care, because the less care they give them, the more money they make." The first clause of this sentence is not actually stated in the source cited and is thus clearly original research. No particular "historian" is specifically quoted or cited as drawing that inference about what Nixon was thinking. Any objections before I remove this clear violation of Misplaced Pages policy? --] (]) 21:55, 22 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :There's a lot about this on the archive page of this page, ]. Are you saying is a false transcript? It has a source - an audio file it links to. Only that would make it a "clear violation of Misplaced Pages policy", no? ... Oh, I guess you're saying "no particular historian" is unsupported - the quote is accurate but the attribution to "historians" isn't supported by a RS? --]<sup>(]•])</sup> 14:46, 13 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::"Historians" is a weasel word. Cite to specific historians and then rephrase it to say, "Several historians, such as A, B, and C, now believe..." Otherwise the statement is unsupported. --] (]) 22:54, 13 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Inappropriate "See also" entry? == | ||
| This is the only entry under "see also" -- | |||
| Hi. Vince from KP here. I’ve noticed that there’s an awful lot of editorializing that has crept into this article within the last week. More specifically, the section “Grossly Inadequate Mental Health Care” strikes me as very non-NPOV. | |||
| As I look at the article more, it also looks like someone copied the veterans section from a KP source. Most folks in my position probably wouldn’t complain, but I want to make sure we do right by Misplaced Pages just as much as we might seek fair treatment here. | |||
| Anyone willing to help here? Alternatively, I can author suggested text in my Sandbox for you all to evaluate. Let me know, and thank you. ] (]) 00:12, 31 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
| "Heather O'Rourke (1975–1988) – child actress who became ill in 1987 and was misdiagnosed by doctors of Kaiser Permanente Hospital. She died on February 1, 1988, and a lawsuit followed shortly thereafter." | |||
| :I'd love to hear from Kaiser's current drug purchasing manager about why the Kaiser pharmacy charges 5-10 times as much for some generics compared to, say, Target. --]<sup>(]•])</sup> 14:43, 13 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::]. ] (]) 14:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Isn't that a little random? Is that the proper use of the "see also" section? | |||
| :::Did you follow the link I added? There's some encyclopedic content there. Certainly enlightening (in conjunction with the for-profit/not-for-profit split info) that Kaiser charges 5-10 TIMES as much <sic> as for-profit Target does to provide the same generic drug. Anyone willing to help flesh out some encyclopedic content about that?--]<sup>(]•])</sup> 19:06, 13 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{u|Elvey}} what is the content you are proposing? ] (]) 00:06, 14 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::] Clarification regarding what parts of KP are/aren't for-profit, such as Kaiser's labs and pharmacies. Information I don't have access to, but Vince may.--]<sup>(]•])</sup> 00:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That is a different question. In any case, an answer from the drug purchasing manager posted here would not be a reliable source from which to create content. ] (]) 15:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::You really frequently misinterpret/misrepresent - I didn't imply Vince was the drug purchasing manager or a RS. Rather, I said Kaiser's drug purchasing manager is discussed here: . It's not a 'different question'. It's not a question at all. Again you misinterpret/misrepresent. Please stop doing that. If you have nothing constructive to say, please be quiet! --]<sup>(]•])</sup> 17:28, 18 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} we seem to miscommunicate frequently, yes. you started this thread wanting to ask their drug purchasing manager questions and when I asked what that had to do with content, you replied with the comment about clarifying their profit vs nonprofit business. Now you say that is not why you wanted to hear from their drug manager. Going around in circles here. Anyway, don't know what more there is to say here. ] (]) 21:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :You say that you don't know what more there is to say. Just keep your mouth shut when it comes to commenting about what I do or don't do or say or think or want. Please. I'm sick and tired of you really frequently misinterpreting and misrepresenting what I've said. I didn't imply Vince was the drug purchasing manager or a RS. Period. Now you try to tell me why I started this thread, when I didn't start it at all. Vggolla did. Please. Don't. Reply. --]<sup>(]•])</sup> 19:37, 2 July 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Maybe it's appropriate. I'm just bringing it up. | |||
| == Whitewashing == | |||
| ] (]) 19:35, 4 January 2021 (UTC) | |||
| Example: I noticed that the section “Grossly Inadequate Mental Health Care” seems to have been removed from the article entirely. Seems hard to see the imposition and unappealed payment of "a $4 million fine against Kaiser for not providing adequate health care to its customers" and a strike over the care failures as entirely unworthy of mention. The section above suggests a possible COI issue. ], please comment on your edit and suggest solution. --]<sup>(]•])</sup> 07:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :i don't know if you are aware but there is a labor dispute between Kaiser and some of their staff. One of the union's arguments is that Kaiser is hurting patients by not providing enough staff to give adequate care. That content was clearly driven by that conflict and clearly violated NPOV. ] (]) 14:58, 13 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Addressed/resolved. Discussion is .--]<sup>(]•])</sup> 09:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Still a lot of whitewashing needs remediation. E.g. no longer any mention of the $20-30 Billion in reserves KP has stashed away. http://www.marinij.com/health/20150319/california-drops-hammer-on-blue-shield-tax-exempt-status/1 says "Kaiser Permanente ... has $21.7 billion in cash reserves, more than 1,600 times the amount required by state regulations."--]<sup>(]•])</sup> 15:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::are you for some reason unable to edit the article? ] (]) 16:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Again: The ] ''POLICY'' states, "always explain your changes in the edit summary." and "If you are reverted, continue to explain yourself". Will you agree to start honoring that?--]<sup>(]•])</sup> 23:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Labor Unions Conclusion == | |||
| * I did and do. Like i said, if there is NPOV well-sourced content you want to add, ]. ] (]) 15:17, 18 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| The section on controversies concludes with a substantial paragraph about the measures being taken by the firm to address the union's issues. While it does contain some easily-verified statistics, such as the number of individuals involved and the timeframe of negotiations, much of the paragraph is dedicated to promoting Kaiser as making substantial changes very much in favor of the company. The fact that there is no citation but the is a direct link to Kaiser's Labor Management Partnership website leads me to believe at best this is an irresponsible addition and at worst a press release added in bad-faith. In either case until a citation is added I believe everything after the fourth sentence needs to be removed. ] (]) 01:03, 16 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ==Black hat SEO - search engine optimization == | |||
| :The section was challenged FOUR years ago. I removed it. cheers. ], ] 01:32, 16 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| The source code of the page that is the #1 hit at https://www.google.com/search?q=kaiser+for-profit+pharmacies includes the text "for-profit, retail pharmacies filled 73% of U.S. prescriptions in the first half of 2011, and many have to answer to shareholders. They’re more focused on turning a profit than helping you reduce your pharmacy costs." but the web page does not include that content. It appears to be invisible and appears backward when in-page searching is used. ]. --]<sup>(]•])</sup> 07:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :What does this have to do, with the content or sourcing of this article? ] (]) 15:00, 13 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::See ].--]<sup>(]•])</sup> 00:28, 18 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please comment on content, not contributors. Thanks. ] (]) 15:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == This article needs semi-protection == | |||
| == Looking for Help with Non-NPOV Content == | |||
| This article is about to get more a lot more attention because ] is the current ] candidate for ] and was born at ] in 1964. This article is seeing vandalism on average about once a month but I suspect that is about to go way up. | |||
| Hello. Vince from KP here. We continue to see additional editorializing in this article. A link has been added here to a Mercury News article that is 90-plus percent about another health plan with which Kaiser Permanente has zero affiliation. It appears to be an effort to link our organizations in a 'guilt by association' method, seems to be non-NPOV, and very much resembles previous non-NPOV content that I've flagged previously. Thank you for your consideration.] (]) 06:02, 15 July 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I just caught and reverted apparent vandalism to the infobox in January 2024, which no one had caught. (Kaiser was founded in Oakland, not Fontana.) This article needs to be put under semi-protection so that only established users can edit it. ] (]) 17:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| : Hello again, Mr Golla. Who owns Kaiser's labs and pharmacies? Are they for-profit or not-for profit? Can you point us to any ] for that information, or for the information from the source that you don't like? I'm curious as to why the Kaiser pharmacy charges 5-10 times as much for some generics compared to, say, Target for prescriptions, or Dollar Tree for OTC meds. Have any answers? I'd be more keen to address your concerns if you'd made some effort to address mine, which I asked a month ago. --]<sup>(]•])</sup> 07:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ping|Coolcaesar}} You can request protection at ] but typically, protection is a reaction to problems and not preventative for anticipated problems. Feel free to make the request and try the system out though. It cannot hurt and making a case always helps. | |||
| ::Again Elvey those questions are not appropriate, as you cannot use the answers to build content. Do not use Misplaced Pages as a platform for advocacy, per ] ] (]) 3:03 am, Today (UTC−7) | |||
| :The reason is that in Misplaced Pages vandalism is often a benefit. Usually Misplaced Pages editors or the bots detect it quickly and remove it, and letting vandals edit things is often a signal that other people are interested in seeing an article developed also. | |||
| :::OK, so you . You should ] when changing a comment after someone responds to it, per ]. ] (]) 14:41, 15 July 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :As to the vandalism you questioned, I know nothing about this. reports that it offered health services at the Kaiser Steel Mill in Fontana. ]] 17:37, 23 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
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Citation needed
This is from the third paragraph
However, Kaiser has had disputes with its employees' unions, repeatedly faced civil and criminal charges for falsification of records and patient dumping, faced action by regulators over the quality of care it provided, especially to patients with mental health issues, and has faced criticism from activists and action from regulators over the size of its cash reserves.
Where are the citations?
Group Health acquisition
Shouldn’t there be some mention of the acquisition (if that’s the right term) of Group Health?
(I see one earlier mention of doing so here on the Talk page, from 2017, but it didn’t get implemented.) Rob Cranfill (talk) 18:02, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Inappropriate "See also" entry?
This is the only entry under "see also" --
"Heather O'Rourke (1975–1988) – child actress who became ill in 1987 and was misdiagnosed by doctors of Kaiser Permanente Hospital. She died on February 1, 1988, and a lawsuit followed shortly thereafter."
Isn't that a little random? Is that the proper use of the "see also" section?
Maybe it's appropriate. I'm just bringing it up.
Middleground1 (talk) 19:35, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Labor Unions Conclusion
The section on controversies concludes with a substantial paragraph about the measures being taken by the firm to address the union's issues. While it does contain some easily-verified statistics, such as the number of individuals involved and the timeframe of negotiations, much of the paragraph is dedicated to promoting Kaiser as making substantial changes very much in favor of the company. The fact that there is no citation but the is a direct link to Kaiser's Labor Management Partnership website leads me to believe at best this is an irresponsible addition and at worst a press release added in bad-faith. In either case until a citation is added I believe everything after the fourth sentence needs to be removed. TenantSea (talk) 01:03, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- The section was challenged FOUR years ago. I removed it. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 01:32, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
This article needs semi-protection
This article is about to get more a lot more attention because Kamala Harris is the current Democratic Party candidate for President of the United States and was born at Kaiser Oakland Medical Center in 1964. This article is seeing vandalism on average about once a month but I suspect that is about to go way up.
I just caught and reverted apparent vandalism to the infobox in January 2024, which no one had caught. (Kaiser was founded in Oakland, not Fontana.) This article needs to be put under semi-protection so that only established users can edit it. Coolcaesar (talk) 17:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Coolcaesar: You can request protection at Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection but typically, protection is a reaction to problems and not preventative for anticipated problems. Feel free to make the request and try the system out though. It cannot hurt and making a case always helps.
- The reason is that in Misplaced Pages vandalism is often a benefit. Usually Misplaced Pages editors or the bots detect it quickly and remove it, and letting vandals edit things is often a signal that other people are interested in seeing an article developed also.
- As to the vandalism you questioned, I know nothing about this. KP reports that it offered health services at the Kaiser Steel Mill in Fontana. Bluerasberry (talk) 17:37, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
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