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Revision as of 10:00, 10 August 2015 editSnow Rise (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers22,493 editsm →Your last edit to the ANI thread was unfortunate← Previous edit Latest revision as of 00:04, 25 December 2024 edit undoAbishe (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers36,880 edits →Happy Holidays: new sectionTag: New topic 
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== Dance image requests ==


== Administrators' newsletter – January 2024 ==
Giordano has chipped in, too, with ] and ] (still waiting for them to send in the OTRS permission I gave them to copy-paste). I'll jog their memory tomorrow morning. ] (]) 12:47, 12 July 2015 (UTC)


] from the past month (December 2023).
:Awesome photos! The second one in particular is really great for addressing that issue we've talked about before -- the difficulty of capturing the quality of movement in a single frame. And Ray Leeper's work no less. Thank you so much for acquiring these for the project. On a side note, how do I know that young woman in the foreground of the first photo; I'm feeling I'm familiar with her from somewhere, but it's ping-ponging back and forth in the memory association centers of my brain. ] ] 02:37, 13 July 2015 (UTC)


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::Turns out permission had been sent, OTRS had requested a signed letter from the photographer, and he agreed but is out of the country for a little while. OTRS is faster than I thought! Also, it turns out ].
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::Does "Ashley Downs" or another name at http://www.giordanodance.org/dancers.html ring a bell? ] (]) 00:07, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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:::Hmmm, not jogging any bells. Maybe she's reminding me of some other dancer with a similar face. But I did love the more recent Giordano media I found while looking. :) The choreo is a really great blend of jazz and what I'd almost call lyrical. Very cool.
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:::But getting back to Wiki, I have to say that this is great work and these photos could find useful places in a number of articles now. :) I was also looking at your involvement on ] (having followed the link on your talk page) and, though I'm not sure that I completely share your outlook that it is definitely notable enough to warrant an independent article, I was really impressed by your efforts to move it towards more neutral, self-consistent and encyclopedic tone. I almost joined into the discussion, because it's a massive convergence of interesting policy issues, but the amount of work it would entail is just not feasible for me this week (work, work). But as usual I was struck by how solid your expression of your policy conclusions was; I hope this doesn't come off as patronizing, but I'm really impressed and proud of how quickly you have assimilated and internalized editorial procedure over the last year. You have a real natural gift for this manner of editing and the intellectual and social demands of the project -- please keep at it! ] ] 00:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC)


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::::Wow, thank you! I'm glad you think I'm doing well. <small>And I don't blame you for not wanting to dive into that discussion…</small>
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::::I'm grateful to WP because it shares many of my values&mdash;being fair, being logical, being useful&mdash;and it has created an enormous nuts-and-bolts guide to accomplishing those elusive goals. As long as I can steer clear of the flaming which is endemic to the Internet, I feel that the time I spend editing is as valuable to me as it is to the project. ] (]) 15:01, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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:::::Much as I would put it myself. :) ] ] 22:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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] '''Arbitration'''
:::::By the way, I just added the ''the only way around is through'' image to no-less a namespace than ]; although it is technically a jazz dance company, I didn't think that still was stereotypically indicative enough of jazz movement to be a great fit for ], though the other image is perfect in that regard and I'll be adding it there next. On a side, and this is not the first time I've thought it, eeeeesh on the state of ]; for the touchstone article of all of our coverage on dance, it's a wee bit embarrassing. I'm not sure if you are familiar with ], an effort to reinvigorate slumping WikiProjects, but I'm going to talk with its coordinator ] about approaching WikiProject Dance. I'm not sure it will do a world of good -- the problem, as it has always been with coverage of dance topics on Misplaced Pages, is the small number of editors interested in the topic -- but it can't hurt to have some new tools at our disposal, all the same. ] ] 23:02, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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:Haha, thank you, Rich. :) ] ] 21:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)


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Thank you for your excellent ref desk answer to me on pregabalin. That was so helpful! I couldn't get here for a couple of days so have answered here so you don't miss it - thank you. That was exactly what I wanted to know and at the right level. ] (]) 13:40, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
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:I'm very happy to have been of help! Let me know if you have any follow-up questions. :) ] ] 19:58, 25 July 2015 (UTC)


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== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
Just look at ]. None of the people talking edited the article before 2013, so for a change the mighty influence of a "principal editor" is no concern ;) --] (]) 11:21, 26 July 2015 (UTC)


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== Tasty nibbles ==


== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
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|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | I really am sorry to have brought you into that, and to have failed to address the concerns so far. I like dance rather a lot more, but once I'm invested in an article it's hard to leave before finding consensus. I can certainly make myself take things slower per Deadline; I think I've been a little too earnestly engaged for everyone's peace of mind. Please don't feel obliged to stick around if you get sick of it. ] (]) 01:50, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

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]-- your comment would be greatly appreciated ] (]) 14:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

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== New page patrol May 2024 Backlog drive ==

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==The Buk/covina edit==
Let me begin by thanking you for commenting on my case at AN/I. I hesitated about writing here, so it does not seem like I'm litigating the issue further; the fact is that I actually fully agree with 95% of your latest comments, and the remaining 5% that I somewhat disagree I don't think compelled I should be commenting on it without it seeming that I am wasting the community's time. I have read your comment carefully, and you are obviously correct about at least some of those edit summaries being, well, juvenile, even disregarding what behavior I was answering to. I have never in fact said that that the past edit summaries were ever warranted in themselves -- I merely objected that they aren't, as had been argued by one editor who revived them, persistent and disqualifying bad behavior.

I am returning here and taking up a bit more of your attention merely to suggest another glance at one of the diffs you brought up in your analysis. Namely . Allow we underscore: you are right in saying that the edit summary had breached ], and I have acknowledged as much by that point the AN/I review. However, you defined the summary as "elicited by your taking exception to the spelling of a proper noun/toponym in it's non-native language". This is not the issue I was addressing, though, and it makes it seem (for instance, to an admin reviewing my case), that I am rude to editors who simply have another spelling preference of "Bukovina".

Please take an additional 10 seconds to review the edits I was reverting: . The edit summary states out the claim that the spelling is "wrong", but this is not simply an issue of "correcting" (or rather, a clumsy attempt at Romanianizing the nomenclature). These edits, which are 100% of that IPs contribution on wikipedia, amount to a degradation of content: they break links by blindly replacing any mention of "Bukovina" with "Bucovina" -- for instance, by creating "]", a redlink instead of a bluelink on ]. The redlink could technically be filled as a redirect to the "Duchy of Bukovina" article -- though even then, that extremely Romanianized version, changing the name of the polity (and not merely of the region) to one that was only extremely rarely used in Romanian, and possibly never in English, would probably be extremely exotic.

To resume and close this: the ] article is a B-class one, with me having been the one to bring it there (through expansion of a stubby article). The edits by the IP had went unnoticed for some two months (including by me), with the content effectively degraded for those two months. Again: not the nomenclature itself is at issue, but the blind promotion of the "Bucovina" spelling to the point of disrupting good content. The blindness of the edits was also in proportion to a political agenda: adding "Bucovina" (Romanian-only) or "Bukovyna" (Ukrainian-only) in all-English contexts is not merely a preference, it is a statement about who the region "really belongs to".

I am obviously not right to have called the degradation what I called it, in my exasperation at seeing the claim that content degradation (from bluelinks to redlinks) is presented as a "correction". Nothing of what I'm writing here is along the lines of "come on, both you and I know that the edit was indeed cretinous". But I would appreciate it if you could revisit your description of this dispute between me and the IP: I am not the sort of editor who calls others names just because "I take exception to the spelling of a proper noun/toponym in it's non-native language"; I am the sort of editor who, once in a blue moon, lost his cool at seeing objective degradation of an article, which the IP was using as a pawn in some sort of abstruse political battle. I only insist here (and I do apologize for taking up your time) because an admin reading your good-faith summary of that interaction, and not wishing to revisit the diff themselves, may be promoted to assume that I engage in behavior ''much'' more disruptive than it actually was. If, upon reading the above, you see any grounds for marginally adjusting that review of the interaction between me and the IP, I would be thankful to you; either way, thank you for your time. ] (]) 05:24, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

:Hi again, Dahn. That's an entirely reasonable request, and I'll post an amendment to my observations stating that I do believe you when you say that response was animated by a desire to avoid broken links and not merely a disagreement over the spelling.

:That said, I hope you'll forgive me for telling you something I think you already know when I re-emphasize that I feel the emotional response was unwarranted helpful, irrespective of whether the original dispute arose primary out of spelling conventions alone, or potentially broken links.

:But I have no problem supporting your assertion that the situation tweaked your nose because of a pragmatic concern quite aside from spelling, insofar as I completely believe that. And I want you to know that, anything I said in the ANI discussion not withstanding, I'm sorry things went so roughly for you. I meant what I said when I stated that you seem like an asset. Just do us a favour and try to keep the name-calling out of it. 'Kill them with kindness', my friend--that's my advice when dealing with vandals, SPAs, or even just well-intentioned but wrong-headed editors. Your signal flares attempting to get help will shine much more clearly if the skies are clear of any smoke resulting from the surrounding terrain being torched. If you'll forgive a tortured metaphor. '']]'' 05:53, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

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== Administrators' newsletter – May 2024 ==

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] '''Guideline and policy news'''
* Phase I of the ] has concluded. Several proposals have passed outright and will proceed to implementation, including ] (3b) and ] (13) on a trial basis. Other successful proposals, such as ] (2), will undergo further refinement in Phase II. Proposals passed on a trial basis will be discussed in Phase II, after their trials conclude. Further details on specific proposals can be found in the ].

] '''Technical news'''
* Partial action blocks are now in effect on the English Misplaced Pages. This means that administrators have the ability to restrict users from certain actions, including uploading files, moving pages and files, creating new pages, and sending thanks. ]

] '''Arbitration'''
* The arbitration case '']'' has been closed.

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* This may be a good time to reach out to potential nominees to ask if they would consider an RfA.
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== Always precious ==
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== I mean fair... ==

I mean fair, but ] says that {{tq|"the HTML <code><nowiki><small>...</small></nowiki></code> tag has a semantic meaning of ] or side comments"}}, that was a side comment, that's why I made it small. If there is consensus against using small at all, please tell me so I can safely put it in my head to not use it anymore. &ndash; ] (]) 00:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
:Well, the sentence of SMALLFONT that you quote is really talking about rare exceptions to the rule of using the standardized font size in the context of mainspace edits (hence it's location in MoS and the fact that it cites not to a community discussion but to an external page discussing the function of the <nowiki><small></nowiki> html tag for the purposes of fine print). {{pb}}For guidance on how to format text in community discussions, see ]; the relevant language is spread throughout the article, but see for example "Technical and format standards" section, which advises to avoid "font gimmicks" and the "Good practices for discussions" section (advising to {{tq|"Keep the format clear: use standard formatting and threading."}}). I'll grant you it's somewhat oblique in the second instance, but taken in the context of the rest of the page, I think it very much is meant to urge standardization of formatting of discussion to maintain maximum accessibility for all participants. Remember that not all users (and not all editors even) have access to the site through a PC utilizing a monitor, or through other standard devices with large screens or strong auto-refactoring tools. And of course others have vision impairment.{{pb}} In any event, I can tell you that the longstanding community practice is to enforce standardization of font text in normal discussion posts. The one lingering carveout that has failed to go away entirely is that small font is sometimes used to mark joking comments that are completely immaterial the editorial or community issue being discussed. But there's pushback on even that practice. {{pb}}Long story short, if your comment has any kind of even remote direct bearing on the discussion at hand, it should use standard text formatting (size included), even if you would judge it to be a minor point. This forecloses the possibility of someone being left out of loop on information and the potential for confusion. Afterall, a point you regard as minor may very well end up not being so to other editors or the community at large--particularly in a behavioural discussion. {{pb}} Thanks for stopping by; I hope you have a good day, on project and off. '']]'' 01:39, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you for explaining, I'll avoid using small. Wish I had looked up the guidance before I did it in many places over the months(or years? unsure when I started doing it), including when asking slightly off-topic questions, pretty sure I just copied someone doing it...
::Anyways, thanks, I wish you a good day too. &ndash; ] (]) 02:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
:::Well, it's honestly not a huge deal: it's the type of thing you can typically expect a gnome to correct, and usually doesn't get more attention than that. :) And you're welcome--happy to be of help! '']]'' 03:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

== Administrators' newsletter – June 2024 ==

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] '''Guideline and policy news'''
* ] of the ] has commenced to improve and refine the proposals passed in ].

] '''Technical news'''
* The ] feature, which enables administrators to mass delete pages, will now correctly delete pages which were moved to another title. ]

] '''Arbitration'''
* The arbitration case '']'' has been closed.
* The Committee is ], including access to the ].

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== RSP definition ==

I don't want to derail the discussion at ] further, but I have been thinking along the same lines as your recent post on the topic recently, and I have been wondering if the way to address this is by setting clear definitions of reliability, and clear definitions of the evidence required to demonstrate that these expectations are met. This should prevent editors from being able to use RSN to disqualify sources they disagree with unless there is a genuine issue with the source - in which case, we should get rid of it.

A broad definition of a reliable source is one that has sufficiently robust editorial process to prevent major errors and issue corrections and retractions when such errors do occur. Based on this, what I've been thinking for a while now is the following:
{{cot}}
To determine whether a source is reliable we need to be able to assess whether their process at identifying false and misleading information is sufficiently robust. A reliable source should only place true information in their own voice, should attribute questionable information, and should not publish hoaxes. However, sources are not expected to be perfect; errors which a source retracts in a timely manner do not impact the sources reliability.

Assessing this requires careful and extensive analysis of the sources publications.
*'''Generally reliable sources''': These are sources with a robust editorial processes that minimize significant errors and issues timely corrections when mistakes occur. They are defined as sources with unretracted significant errors in less than 0.1% of articles.
*'''Partially reliable sources''': These are sources that are still generally reliable but have a slightly higher rate of significant errors. They are are defined as sources with unretracted significant errors in less than 1% of articles. Editors should exercise additional caution when using the source, and when a partially reliable source disagrees with a reliable source on a question of fact editors should defer to the reliable source.
*'''Generally unreliable sources''': These are sources with frequent significant errors, indicating less rigorous editorial processes. They are defined as sources with unretracted significant errors in more than 1% of articles. Editors should be very cautious about using the source, and if it is used it should be attributed.
*'''Deprecated sources''': These are sources with pervasive and systematic issues, making them unreliable for most purposes. The are defined as sources with unretracted significant errors in more than 5% of articles. They should not be used except for "about-self" statements.

Every effort should be made to permit the continued use of the source in at least some capacity on Misplaced Pages. This means that when errors are identified editors should determine whether they are systematic to the paper or limited to a definable area. For example, ] is considered unreliable for {{tq|subjects with which the Turkish government could be construed to have a conflict of interest}}.

===Process===
Sources may only be added to ] through formal discussion in the form of an RfC.

At least one month prior to opening the RfC an editor must announce their intention to do so on at ]. They must at this time publish the systematic review that they will use to contest the current reliability assessment, to give editors who disagree time to review the evidence and counter it.

Reviews must be provably systematic. This means the following requirements must be met:
# The methodology for choosing the articles must be described, and it must be sufficiently detailed that any editor can repeat the process and get the same articles.
# All reviewed articles must be listed, including those that did not have issues
# All identified issues must been proven by reference to reliable sources demonstrating that the claim is false

The discussion should focus solely on any reviews posted. To prevent classification in line with the review, editors must demonstrate that either the ], the evidence is not ], or a sufficient number of the errors identified were either not errors or not major errors. For the latter, editors must present reliable sources supporting the claim made by the source under discussion.

The closer must first assess whether there is a consensus that the process to select the articles was appropriate and that the evidence is statistically significant. If there is not, then there is no change to the current classification of the source.

If there is, then the closer must consider each identified error to determine whether there is a consensus that it is a major error. This then produces the adjusted number of errors:
# Errors with consensus they are an error add 1
# Errors with consensus they are not an error add 0
# Errors with no consensus add 0.5

Dividing this by the number of sources considered gives the percentage, and this is directly used to classify the source.

This is intended to provide a structure that prevents cherry picking data and minimizes the ability of editors POV's to impact the result.

====Previous classifications====
For sources classified under the previous system a streamlined process is provided to review them. Editors may dispute a sources assessment by posting at RSN and adding a <nowiki>{{RSP-disputed}}</nowiki> tag to the entry. Editors who support the current rating then have two months in which to provide a systematic review supporting its current classification. After the two months, if no editor posts such a review, the entry is removed from RSP.

If such a review is posted, either editor may open an RFC after at least one month has passed, which will follow the process defined above. However, if there is not a consensus that the process to select the articles is appropriate or that the evidence is statistically significant then the result in the source is removed from RSP.

===Error classification===
Minor errors are errors that do not significantly alter the understanding or interpretation of the news story. These errors are usually factual details that, while incorrect, do not change the overall context or meaning of the report.

For example:
* Misspelling of a name or a title.
* Incorrect dates that do not impact the sequence of events.
* Minor numerical inaccuracies that do not affect the overall statistical interpretation.
* Typographical errors.

Major errors are significant inaccuracies that can alter the understanding, context, or perception of the news story. These errors can mislead the audience, change the narrative, or damage the credibility of the news source and the individuals involved.

Errors in attributed claims are generally considered minor unless the claim was a major part of the story or was a deliberate hoax, in which case we would still expect a reliable source to issue a correction.

===Retractions===
Mistakes happen. We do not consider these to affect a sources reliable if they correct them promptly and with due prominence.

This is based on broadly accepted standards:
# says {{tq|A significant inaccuracy, misleading statement or distortion must be corrected, promptly and with due prominence, and — where appropriate — an apology published.}}
# says {{tq|Acknowledge mistakes and correct them promptly and prominently. Explain corrections and clarifications carefully and clearly.}}
# says {{tq|Reuters is transparent about errors. We rectify them promptly, clearly and comprehensively, whether in a story, a caption, a graphic or a script.}}
# says {{tq|When any factual error or mistake is detected or confirmed, the newspaper should ''suo-motu'' publish the correction promptly with due prominence and with apology or expression of regrets in a case of serious lapse}}
# says {{tq|When we make a mistake – whether in fact or in context, and regardless of the platform – we correct it promptly, prominently and in a transparent manner, acknowledging the nature of the error}}
{{cob}}

Do you have any thoughts on this? ] (]) 10:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

:Hey BM. I have feelings too mixed and complicated on the subject to be sharing them in anything approaching an adequate form in the scarce few moments I have available to address such an inquiry today. I promise I'll make it a priority the very next time I can get on project, probably in a day or two. But I didn't want you think I was ignoring you until then. Best wishes to you in the meantime. '']]'' 12:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

==Edit summary at ANI==
I was a bit baffled by edit summary. I can assure you it would not even occur to me to "disregard the rules merely to jump the queue and get response higher up". I see that you figured it out a couple of edits later, but can I ask how you managed to jump to such a silly conclusion? If, as I suspect, you were influenced by Grorp's refactor and comment , then I'll point out that their response was as silly and precipitate as yours. I had responded, correctly, to their assertion at the start of the section, since that was the topic of discussion, and they mistakenly thought I was responding to the collection of "notes" which they had arbitrarily dropped on the talk page (as, incidentally, is their habit – I personally don't think personal 'notes' sections are appropriate for talk pages, particularly in the middle of a focused discussion, but I guess there's nothing in the guidelines about it). They proceeded to move my comment out of place in exactly the way you did, with an equally inappropriate and officious admonition.
In my opinion, your summary analysis of what went on at that page is as hasty and ill-judged as your edit summary, although it's nice that you opined "in the spirit of fairness". It was surprizing to me because I "had you pegged", to employ Grorp's charming turn of phrase, as one of the more sensible editors on wikipedia. I won't be editing the page anymore, but I'll discuss it here if you wish to, but it's not important and I'm happy to drop it. ] (]) 00:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
:Hi Harold. The best I can say to explain my misreading of the situation there was that it was a case of errant pattern recognition. As I recall, your post used one-too-many levels of indent for the message it was meant to respond to, and I momentarily mistook this for being the old trick that some people sometimes use in order to move their responses higher up in the chronology of messages while still making it "clear" who they are responding to--something we see a lot at ANI and other fora where people place a premium on efforts to defend their conduct. This is against policy, of course, because it complicates the normal discussion/thread format, but people still do it from time to time. In reading your message, I thought this was what was going on, because of the extra level of indent. But no sooner had I refactored when I realized that it was clearly an error on my part, so I placed the post back where it belonged and merely corrected the indent level. At least, that's how I recall it. I probably should have known you were too experienced to be employing such formatting, but the misread was a matter of a good faith mistake.{{pb}}Now as for my take on the issues that brought you and the other parties to ANI in the first place, I'm sorry if my analysis feels uncharitable or inaccurate to you, and if it has thus reduced your appreciation for my perspective on such things. Mind you, my first comment and priority there was focused on the fact that I felt the OP had needlessly escalated the matter to ANI and had failed to show due diligence in following normal dispute resolution processes before hand, and that your conduct was well bellow the threshold of anything that needed reporting or correction by the community. I continue to feel that was the case. However, that doesn't mean that I didn't feel there was some blame to be spread around regarding discussion becoming non-productive on the article talk page itself. I do think there were moments there were your tone became a little bit battlegroundish. {{pb}}Again, nothing I thought justified an excursion to ANI (especially without efforts to talk it out with you first), but I can see where your choice of words could have contributed to the other two feeling that you were not super open to contrary opinions. And I continue to stand by that part of the assessment too. It wasn't meant to be a particularly severe or concerned observation so much as a nudge from someone not involved in the dispute which I hoped would therefore give it at least a little bit more credibility. That said, the underlying dispute is obviously moot if you're determined not to involve yourself in that article further. I'm sorry that a more collaborative solution was not achieved, but for what it's worth, I respect an editor who decides that certain disputes represent too much inefficiency in constructive use of one's project time to be worth pursuing them to the end. In any event, best wishes on whatever you're off to work on next. '']]'' 12:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

== Administrators' newsletter – July 2024 ==

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== Thank you for your thoughts at ANI ==

Hi SnowRise. I just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful posts at the ATG thread at ANI. In particular, your posts in the "off-wiki forums" subsection were very good. I started the thread disagreeing with you, and while I still feel there's some nuance to it, I'm coming down more and more in line with your thinking. The thoughts on outing in particular hit home; however easy it'd be to enforce the civility side of things, it would definitely open a procedural door for malicious outing under the guise of, "This account said a bad thing. Is this you?" All this to say: thanks for sharing your thoughts, they changed my opinion, and I hope you have a great day. ] (]) 15:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
:Thank you {{u|EducatedRedneck}}: it's quite thoughtful of you to take the time to come here and say as much, and I very much appreciate it. So often on this project, as with our culture in general (and more and more as the years go on), it can feel like major policy discussions are largely boiling down to two sides lobbing rhetorical mortars at eachother from their pre-decided entrenched positions, with little hope of anyone being persuaded of much. It is very helpful to be reminded of the fact that the situation is not always as severely intractable as it may seem at first blush these days.

:What's more, I'm especially grateful for that feedback in this case because I really don't like being in a position of telling my fellow community members that they just have to suck it up and absorb insults in these situations. It's very much the opposite of my usual stance on such things here. If they talk about me at all on WPO (I don't care to check) I'm sure it's to call me a "civility scold" or somesuch, since I've had people say as much to me here after taking hard lines (sometimes against popular and/or well-respected users) on chronic incivility. It's an increasingly unpopular view, it sometimes feels, but I do think that WP:CIV is every bit as important as the other pillar policies, if not the most important. It's just that in this case, the consequences of reaching as far as some would have us, are so potentially dangerous to the real world safety and wellbeing of our individual community members, and so potentially corrosive to the overall culture of our community and the project's stability.

:But even being as convinced of this as I am, it still makes for saying things I don't like having to say to people who are on the receiving end of often times petty, if not outright bullying, behaviour. So hearing from even one person that I am not saying it for no good purpose is very welcome. Have a great day, ER--and please don't be a stranger to my workspace. :) '']]'' 16:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

==Reply==
Well, I checked your reply on ANI . Thank you, but I would like to disagree on one point. When someone's behavior (let's say contributor X) is debated on ANI, I believe it is completely appropriate to discuss the potential issues on the user X talk page and politely explain such potential issues to them. It is frequently the case that a user misunderstands WP policies. Other users have an obligation to explain the specific issue and the policies to user X, prior to complaining elsewhere, for example. And that is exactly what user The Kip (who started the conversation) and me did. There was nothing inappropriate there. As about the responses by user X, I think they were telling in a couple of aspects and as such were also helpful. ] (]) 15:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
:I'm sorry MVBW, but I'm afraid I must stand by my assessment of your decision to comment on their talk page in the manner that you did, at the time that you did. Your engagement there and The Kips are not analogous, as indeed I noted in my comments at ANI. The Kip commented as a party not involved in the dispute and as such, despite more than a little bit of a hint of reproach and warning in their comments, JDiala's response was mostly receptive and the discussion productive and moving in the right direction. Your choice of that moment to leap on to the talk page of the party you were currently in a dispute with, when said dispute was already being examined at ANI, in order to re-litigate one of the elements of that dispute, was, I'm sorry, very ill-considered and, if I'm being perfectly blunt, a bad look in the circumstances.

:And all the more so because I'm not at all convinced that you are any more on the right side of the policy you wanted to continue to assert your position about than JDiala is. Based on the extensive forgoing dispute, it's pretty clear that both you and they both understand how BRD operates. Rather the locus of the dispute is clearly around who had the "advantage" of the status quo/consensus version of the article, and therefor whose "bold" edit triggered the BRD cycle. Which, to be clear, is very much something both of you should have stopped arguing about a while ago, in favor of pursuing a standard dispute resolution option to address the underlying content issue. But you instead chose this least opportune possible moment in order to lecture and "explain" BRD to JD, despite the fact that they clearly understand what the policy requires, and merely differ with you on who violated the principle first. This despite the fact that A) you had already gone ten rounds with them on the article talk page over this, and B) they had expressly stated at the ANI that this was the issue that was frustrating them.

:How you thought that this could do anything other than inflame the situation, and are even going so far as to double down on the assertion that it was a helpful thing to do after the fact, is a little beyond me. This wasn't a case of trying to de-escalate the situation before ANI by providing another user with new information that might help them avoid trouble: the matter had already been taken to ANI and had community eyes on it, and there was no reason for you to believe that the other user would interpret any perspective you supplied on the policy as helpful new information. Nor was your situation or approach analogous to The Kip's role there. If anything, you derailed any benefit that was being accrued from his intervention with the user.

:Let me be clear that I AGF that for some reason you thought this was the helpful and right thing to do, but if that's really the case, you seriously need to recalibrate your perspective for any similar situations in the future. Because as an outsider looking in, who has now reviewed all of the previous talk page dispute in addition to the ANI, it is unambiguous to me that the only possible outcome here was that you were going to replicate the same argument that was already taking place in two other spaces, and set the other party's teeth on edge in the process. And much like The Kip, the lion's share of my feedback to JDiala has been critical in nature, and full of warning. But the longer the dispute goes on, the more sympathetic I am to his position that he is not being heard and the more I'm starting to understand why he felt he was not being engaged with in a productive fashion.

:At this point, I can only re-assert, for all three of you, what I ended my ANI comments with: stop bickering over who had/has the right end of the stick with regard to BRD. It's not accomplishing anything. One side needs to give way, or someone needs to RfC this or take it to RSN or DRN or pursue any number of other dispute resolution processes. To pursue the current course that both sides have to this point is to flirt with an AE sanction, and the longer that happens, the less certain you should feel that JD is the one likely to receive it. You're not going to see eye to eye on who violated BRD first, clearly. I also doubt you are going to see a block at ANI for how JD characterized your and ManyAreasExpert's behaviour. So short-circuit this nonsense by doing what you all should have done ages ago, and bring other eyes in to resolve the content dispute. This is not rocket science: if you're that convinced that you have the right read on the sourcing issue, bolster your consensus and shut JD's argument down. '']]'' 20:58, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
::Sorry, but I did not try to relitigate anything, as should be clear from my comments. Did I suggest to sanction this contributor anywhere? No. Besides, that ANI thread was obviously going nowhere, and I only placed a link to discussion for the sake of order. I did not start that ANI thread or even a discussion at the user talk page. My only purpose was to explain the policy to the user because he misunderstood it. Yes, I had a few discussions with him on several talk pages, and I am familiar with the subject. But it does not disqualify me from commenting on this. Quite the opposite. As about "dispute resolution", yes, of course, but I hardly have significant disagreements with this user. The dispute resolution is currently on the initial stage, i.e. just discussing the issue on article talk pages(s). Of course another user who brought this issue on ANI might be in a state of prolonged dispute, I do not really know. There are no "three of us". Happy editing, ] (]) 00:55, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
::::{{tq|"My only purpose was to explain the policy to the user because he misunderstood it."}}
:::Again, having reviewed the entire dispute (article talk pages, ANI, and JD's TP included) and watched you go around and around and around on this issue, I feel absolutely confident at this point that they understand ] every bit as well as you do. ''<u>It's just that they disagree with you about what the status quo version of the disputed content is, and therefore whose edit constitutes the B in BRD.</u>'' This is something JD repeatedly pointed out on the article talk, and they also repeatedly emphasized (in the talk page discussion and at the ANI) that the efforts to "educate" them on BRD were ''the'' major source of frustration for them in that discussion. So I don't think you could have picked a single thing that was more likely to set them off than showing up in the middle of q discussion with another editor on their talk page in order to again "explain" BRD to them. And frankly, a lot of editors would have popped their top at that point. {{pb}}And please let me reiterate at this point that both of you should have dropped the discussion about who really violated WP:BRD/] long, long before that point. It was getting nothing accomplished and it was well past time for you both to move on to RfC or some other processes necessary to break the deadlock. But I honestly don't think that you could have picked a single thing to say to them at that point in time that was more certain to tick them off.
::::{{tq|"But it does not disqualify me from commenting on this."}}
:::No, of course it didn't and I don't see anywhere where anyone has implied that you were barred from commenting. What I said was that commenting when and how you did on his talk page was ill-advised and almost certain to get exactly the response you did: inflaming matters further with no realistic chance of achieving anything positive. Nobody said or implied that commenting there constituted a brightline violation of policy. My observation is merely that it represented bad judgment on your part and demonstrated that the issues between you two were not coming unilaterally from his approach. And nothing you've said here has caused me to re-assess that impression.
::::{{tq|"The dispute resolution is currently on the initial stage, i.e. just discussing the issue on article talk pages(s).}}
:::Well that's certainly better than continuing to fixate on who is on the right side of BRD, but given the protracted back-and-forth there already, can I recommend that you all not sleep on starting an RfC or taking the matter to RSN? Because if you haven't been able to achieve a meeting of the minds between you so far, I don't think it's likely to spontaneously happen, and my concern is the cycle of talking past eachother is going to continue without other community voices involved. Just my two cents.
::::{{tq|"Happy editing"}}
:::To you as well. '']]'' 01:49, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

== Appreciation for being an intelligent human ==

Hello, I am a autistic man who enjoys vicariously living other people's arguments and experiences through reading various internet drama. The last year or so I've noticed that ANI and wikipedia in general can be very good sources of "human drama entertainment" or whatever you'd like to call it.

I'm rambling. The point of writing on your talk page is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Snow_Rise-20240715161200-Snow_Rise-20240715072400

This reply you made, along with many, many others that you've made, really help me think better of people. You write clearly, empathetically, and with nuance I do not see often. You have a beautiful mind and I hope you keep contributing to whatever strikes your fancy.

I know that it would make me giddy to have someone compliment me like this, but I hope you take it well. ] (]) 19:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

:{{u|Hooples}}, I don't know what to say--this is one of the nicest, most flattering things anyone has ever said to me in my time on the project, or in general. And it's very endearing to me not just because it is so complimentary, but also because you observed some of the qualities that I try hardest to bring into our work with the community: reason, empathy, understanding and forbearance. It's also a very timely message for me: the recent months have represented a tough time for me, and though I've tried to make that all the more reason to practice patience and kindness, you never know for sure how well you are doing when you are exhausted and living under the shadow of doubt. Today has been an amazing day: first I received the results of a medical scan that were phenomenally more positive than expected and beyond what I dared hope for. And now, this warm and invigorating missive from a stranger, which has made me feel so appreciated and recognized. Thank you for taking the time to make one of your first edits here such an act of kindness. It's a lovely little boost of extra impetus that merges seamlessly with the thoughts of renewed possibility and purpose that are filling my home right now. If you do a fraction as much for the average person you interact with here, you will be an amazing addition to our community indeed. Please, as you transition from a passive to an active member of our endeavour, if there is anything at all I can do to help, do not hesitate to reach out. In the meantime, you have my kindest regards and sincerest gratitude. '']]'' 00:59, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

== Reply from Hooples ==

Sorry for making a new topic, the way your talk page is laid out doesn't let me reply on mobile for whatever reason.

Your reply made me happy all night while I was at work, thank you. I'm glad I can make you feel recognized. Not enough humans are. My wife says you have excellent thank-you note skills.

I have been reading about the RFC page and the whole process,I think I am going to try to participate where I can, when appropriate.

I am pretty nervous about it, however. I lurk... Extensively, and I've seen firsthand all the people who are quick to harass. I read one arbitration where an editor even called another at work after snooping out their info. I would like to avoid that if at all possible. That is just my normal nervousness though, I stay more anonymous than most.

I hope to see more of your writing if I do take that step. ] (]) 18:23, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

:{{u|Hooples}}: first, my thanks to your wife for the kind observation.:) As to your on-project ambitions, I think RfC is a great way to get started in contributing 'behind the curtain' here, particularly if you sign up for the ] ('FRS' for short; which allows an automated system to randomly select discussions requiring input for which you will receive bot-delivered invites to participate. With this method, you can maximize the number of discussions you get involved with where the area is generally familiar enough to you to enhance your ability to consider the issues, but also less likely to be topics that you have super-strong pre-existing notions about. This is a really great sweet spot to sit in while you try to master our content policy and learn to apply them neutrally. It also spreads the contributions out a little more evenly, so you can more often land on talk pages where an extra opinion may be sorely needed to break a deadlock, provide a third option not previously considered, or just give a new perspective.{{pb}} However, even you end up completely self-selecting for most of your RfC contributions, you will still be exposed to a large variety of policy and content issues and get great exposure to the consensus-making process. In my opinion, it's really one of the best ways to become a well-rounded contributor. Just don't be afraid to pass on a given discussion, or make very limited (or even noncommittal) remarks if you are not entirely sure what the right call is, especially in the early going.{{pb}}As to the harassment, I can understand your concerns, but my experience has been that the overwhelming majority of people you interact with will be genial and respectful. Yes, harrassment does happen from time to time, unfortunately, but if you stay calm in the face of needless antagonism, you can easily the vast majority of even what the most negative personalities can throw at you relatively unaffected. Cases of things like offline stalking are exceedingly uncommon, but I do recommend creating something of a firewall between your off-project identity and your work here: even aside from the benefits to your privacy and sense of security if those are serious concerns for you, my personal editorial philosophy is that the more you can divorce yourself from the normal demographics and group-affiliations which dominate so much of the rest of you world and our places within it, the easier it is to put yourself in a headspace of foregrounding our consensus policies and staying agnostic/neutral with regard to various content issues while doing so.{{pb}}Not everyone agrees and many see an enhanced value in their time in this community by disclosing much more information about themselves here, but I recommend you at least get the lay of the land here before you make a decision to reveal a lot of personal info. This is one of the largest, most highly visible and heavily archives sites on the internet, afterall, and it's exceedingly difficult to completely claw back information once you reveal it here. And there may be times that you find yourself agreeing that certain content should (or should not) be added to an article, based on a policy/consensus decision, even though you find that information personally objectionable (or valid). People outside the project might not always appreciate the nuance of such decisions.{{pb}}As a previous lurker, you are probably already well aware of ] and our ] resources, but I thought I would point them out to you anyway, just in case. You might also consider lurking for a while at ] to keep abreast of new policy discussions and developments and get even more refined perspectives on issues of broad policy and consensus. And, of course, I hope it goes without saying that you are always free to stop in here and ask a question if you think I may have a helpful perspective. My user page covers the major areas of my content contributions, but in terms of community and process, I've tried to spread my efforts around a bit over my time here, and if I can help, I will. :) '']]'' 13:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

== July music ==
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Coming to you to say hello (from my watchlist), I read the above threads with pleasure. Thank you both for being human! - ] is about a photographer who took iconic pictures, especially ], yesterday's was ], and on Thursday ]. If that's not enough my talk offers chamber music from two amazing concerts, one piece by ], the other by ]. -- ] (]) 13:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

] had ], ], a composer and ], - almost too much, and the composer's article, ], improved much over the last days, could still grow. --] (]) 21:45, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

== Administrators' newsletter – August 2024 ==

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== August music ==
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Today I have three "musicians" on the Main page, one is also the topic of ], like 22 July but with interview and the music to be played today -- ] (]) 15:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

On 13 August, ], and the image one. The cantata is an extraordinary piece, using the chorale's text and famous melody more than others in ]. It's nice to have not only a recent death, but also this "birthday" on the Main page. And a rainbow in my places. --] (]) 12:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

== New pages patrol September 2024 Backlog drive ==

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== Feedback requests from the Feedback Request Service ==
:No, nonsense, it's not a problem at all. Truth be told, I should have commented sooner, as I have some useful understanding of the scholarship involved. As I said on the talk page, any sourcing I provide will probably come piecemeal, as my editing time is limited right now, but I will do what I can try to help the disparate parties come to some kind of functional consensus that sorts those issues out. Like you, I'd much rather be putting my limited time towards working on ], but sometimes if you can save a large number of editors a lot of wasted time with the proper sources, its a better use of your time than working on the article which is of more direct interest to you yourself, and I think this certainly qualifies as one of those cases. A truly massive amount of discussion has taken place on that page in just the last couple of weeks but, despite the fact that most of the parties seem cordial and civil and to genuinely want to find a middle-ground solution, there has been slow development to that end. Some extra sourcing and some nuanced arguments on how they ought to be approached might pay dividends. ] ] 06:14, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


]Your feedback is requested &#32;at ] and &#32; ] on "Politics, government, and law" request for comments, and &#32;at ]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of ] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by ].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by ] :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact ]. &#124; Sent at 12:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
::Snow Rise, progress has been slow (actually, non-existent) ''because of'' the extensive talk-page discussion, not despite it. We're expected somehow to read two or three books and at least a dozen papers in the blink of an eye, ''and'' write the article ''and'' respond to endless comments. If you have any influence over FourViolas, I hope you'll impress upon her the importance of giving people space to do the research. If the article is still a problem in six months, criticism would be very helpful, but at this stage the only thing it has achieved is to halt the work. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:50, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


== Administrators' newsletter – September 2024 ==
:::{{Ping|SlimVirgin}} Well I can't really claim to know 4V's mind on this matter in detail, as we've barely discussed the article, but my observation of the current talk page discussion seems to suggest that her main concern at present is that the article's present title, and the general approach it dictates, are deeply problematic with regard to several key policies. That's no minor issue, and it really is one that ought to be addressed before proceeding with overhauling the articles content, for two reasons: 1) so as to save a lot of work on the part of you and other good-faith editors on content that may have to be significantly altered or even discarded if its found that this article topic is misleading, and 2) so involved editors don't become attached to their preferred model for the article should they do that work, if, ultimately, an alternative approach is found necessary. And honestly, having reviewed the present sourcing, and contextualized within what I know of the broader research on this field of inquiry, I'm finding that so far I strongly agree with her assessment that this topic represents a kind of POVFORK to the core topic, that the current title is inappropriate and that the severe neutrality issues that arise from this approach are probably not something that we can just leave be for six months. Under those circumstances, I don't know that I feel comfortable advising her to hold her peace on the matter, even though I recognize a couple of experienced editors presently involved in the page at present, yourself included; not only do I think she is within her rights to object strenuously in this instance, I think she's doing the right thing by you, the other editors, the article and the project broadly by raising this particular issue now, rather than later.


] from the past month (August 2024).
:::What I can do is give you some time myself, despite my own considerable qualms. As to 4V, given her comments above, I suspect she is already planning on backing off the talk page for a spell and probably only got drawn back in by my own comments. I think you'll have your space, for a time, but I can't promise anything, not even with regard to my own involvement, certainly not on the timeframe of months, because I think there are some fundamental policy issues with regard to the article is being approached by a number of the more active editors there, and not just in terms of things that editors have not yet had time to address, but with regard to perspectives on how they view the article moving forward. Both of the two camps which represent the extremes on this issue have proposed approaches which seem to me to fail various guidelines, and neither is really reaching for a middle-ground solution which means just proceeding with working on the article without further discussion is likely to result in further furor, and maybe even edit warring.


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:::But perhaps I can make a suggestion of quick fix that would probably buy you the breathing room you need. I can't guarantee it will still 4V's concerns outright, but she and I seem to be of one mind on some of the issues here, so perhaps she will be as reassured by this change as I know I would be. Specifically, my recommendation is that you concentrate your next efforts on the neutrality of the article by massively reworking the lead. Specifically, we need to remove that reference to carnism as a "]". I don't think it accurately reflects the sources, and frankly, even if it did, I still think it would represent a ''massive'' semantic blunder in describing this subject as an encyclopedic topic, especially in the first sentence of the lead. Carnism is ''not'' analogous to the semantics which govern ] or ]. In those cases, people willfully, volitionally, and unambigously embrace the tenets of those dietary philosophies and claim them as their own. Carnism is ''not'' a term which people embrace as a ] and is therefore not really consistent with how people generally parse the meaning of "belief system" nor with how we treat it elsehwere on this project, including our explicit coverage of the topic. Carnism is instead a neologism which is used more or less exclusively by precisely the people who ''do not'' practice the acivities to which it is meant to apply--and indeed it is used most prominently by people who are ideologically ''opposed'' to the activities it is meant to describe. That is ''clearly'' not a belief system -- it's a term used by those who are opposed to a certain class of activity to classify that activity for easy reference.
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:::Keeping that statement in the first sentence of the lead sets the tone for all of the neutrality issues that follow in the article. Frankly, I think it's self-evident that any discussion of carnism should be done within the context of an article on ] or ], the real core topics here. Carnism is just a word which contextualizes those topics in a certain light, its not a topic in and of itself, and (while I think he's missed the mark on just about everything else) Martin was right about one thing: ], that's what Wiktionary is for. If we ''were'' to allow an article on carnism (and to my mind that is a big if), then the title of the article should be ] or ], which more accurately represents what the article is really about and doesn't mislead our readers into believing this is a belief system in the sense of an explicit set of ''overt'' beliefs. And the first sentence should then read something along the lines of...
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::::"The '''carnism paradigm''' is the ''theory'' that many human beings make unspoken, and generally unchallenged, assumptions which cause them to view the ] of ] as a default ], and to construct frameworks of personal ] which validate those choices."
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:::I think that is equally or more consistent with our sources on this matter, would suit both proponents and opponents of the theory as neutral, and just goes a long, long way to sorting out the confused meaning which currently sits in the lead. If you feel you might agree with me on this point (which I will introduce myself to the talk page briefly, then let's see about implementing it as the next change. Again, I can't speak for Violas, but if the lead is improved in this regard, I for one would readily agree to give a month or two before I raised even a single one of the other numerous neutrality issues. I just want to see some positive step to addressing issues on the article which bring it uncomfortably close to any attack page, imo. Anyway, let me know your thoughts! And on a side note, those sources are coming briefly. ] ] 08:08, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
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::::Moving the article to "carnism paradigm" or "carnism theory" would be a great step towards proper framing, and would be another solution satisfactory enough to set my mind and tongue at ease re NPOV problems for a while. It would also be consistent with the majority of RS i've found while looking for sources, which mention "carnism" at arms' length, as the name psychologist Melanie Joy uses for the psychology of meat-eating. I'll compile a heap of those sources later, to help with presenting this idea at talk:carnism. <p> As for sources, here's what is reliably attested to be a mainstream compilation of contemporary sociological meat research, which doesn't mention "carnism": . Here's my own list of a few highly-cited sources published since 2014 discussing very closely related topics without using the word: , , , , , , , . And here is a parallel list from GB for sources which do mention carnism: , , , , . Comparing citation counts and impact factors, I think there's firm evidence that Joy's ideas are Fringe. ] (]) 14:30, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
::::{{ec}}Sorry, forgot , who adds a little weight to "carnist". ] (]) 15:00, 30 July 2015 (UTC)


] '''Oversighter changes'''
(ec) Hi Snow Rise, re: the behavioural issues, she has claimed on the talk page to be an academic, but on other talk pages to be a teenager not yet in college. That should be clarified. The talk page is a complete mess, and the content policies have been seriously misunderstood. The result is that the only three editors there at the moment able and willing to write this and see it through to fruition have more or less stopped. I've tried to AGF, but it has become so difficult that I've taken the page off my watchlist.
:] ]


] '''CheckUser changes'''
As for the content, "belief system" has already gone from the lead. In case you were looking at an old version, I made some structural changes yesterday. As for "meat paradox," you misunderstood what it is; I for you on the talk page, but I don't know whether you saw it. Some of that work emerged out of Joy's, so I'm not sure why you see the latter as article-worthy but not the former. Regarding your suggestion for the first sentence, yes, that or something close would work, though the current first sentence is close enough. Re: "many human beings make unspoken, and generally unchallenged, assumptions which cause them to view the consumption of meat as a default societal norm ..." – it won't work as written, because the consumption of meat ''is'' a social norm. But thank you, I can fiddle around with it.
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These are issues that get fixed as the research and writing continues. I can't stress how important it is to give people space to read and work. Nothing will improve unless that happens. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 14:59, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
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] '''Guideline and policy news'''
:In that context, I only meant "an academic" to mean "a person who personally sympathizes with the academic method of treating information objectively". I can strike that if you think I was claiming to be published or something. I'm 19 and will be at Harvard in the fall as an undergrad, but having seen some negative effects of WP editors losing anonymity, I don't include that info or my gender on my user page. ] (]) 15:07, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
* Following an ], there is a new ]: ], which {{tq|applies to unused maintenance categories, such as empty dated maintenance categories for dates in the past}}.
* A ] is open to discuss whether ] should be adopted as a ].


] '''Arbitration'''
::When someone writes "I'm an academic," most people will understand that that person holds an academic position. I think you should make clear on the talk page, by striking or in some other way, that that's not the case. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 15:15, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
* Following a ], ] (the topic and interaction bans on ], respectively) were repealed.
* ] of the ] ("{{noping|Cinderella157}} German history topic ban") was ] for a period of six months.
* The arbitration case ] is currently open. Proposed decision is expected by 3 September 2024 for this case.


] '''Miscellaneous'''
:::Well, I'm not sure it really matters anyway. After-all, when it comes down to it, a highschool student, an undergrad, a grad, and a post-doc all have equal standing here anyway. I'm as guilty as anyone of occasionally dropping hints about my credentials when I want to reassure someone I know about the research being discussed, but ultimately what matters are the arguments being made with regard to the content, sources and policies, not who is making them. 4V might want to be careful about the wording in any event, but I don't know that it counts as a behavioural issue as regards our purposes here on the project. As to the talk page, it does seem...active, but not much more so than one might expect from a contentious topic. I'm not sure which policies you feel have been miscontrued (I've only read mostly the more recent threads) but I think 4V means to take things at a more measured pace, and I've already said as much as time allows me on the topic, aside from the forthcoming sources. But you've still got a number of active editors there, so I doubt it's going to get ''too'' quiet. But so long as people aren't edit warring, that's not necessarily a bad thing. ] ] 02:47, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
* Editors can now enter into ], an alternative for informal '']'' arrangements, to have a ] reviewed in return for reviewing a different editor's nomination.
* A ] is happening in September 2024 to reduce the number of unreviewed articles and redirects in the ]. Currently, there is a backlog of over 13,900 articles and 26,200 redirects awaiting review. ]


----
::::Rereading, I was embarrassed to see that it did look like I was calling myself a professional academic. I ]. I think soon I'll be putting up an education wikibreak template, which should make things clear. <p>Snow, I'm putting my early notes in ] in case you want to add or correct before I open ]. From what I'm seeing, the meat paradox is only one among several ideas, including the meat-masculinity connection, correlation of personality values with meat consumption behavior, and meat in EP, which ought to end up there. My personal plan is to get a non-embarrassing sketch of that field done while I primarily get back to work on dance topics. When patience and AGF levels are higher at ], we can look into moving material around between ], ], and ], or some combination thereof as sources merit. ] (]) 03:56, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
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== Feedback request: Biographies request for comment ==
]
:::::I wouldn't sweat the mistake; I don't think its germane to any policy discussion. The only relevant issue this line of discussion raises for me is that I think congratulations are due on your getting into Harvard! :) ] ] 09:45, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


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::::::Thanks! and thanks for your guidance at sandbox/Meat. ] (]) 22:02, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
::::::I'm still adding sources. Many remain. In my limited time, is the right intro-to-EP paper for me to get to know? ] (]) 04:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


== Rap battles ==
:::::::Well, it's a capable enough summary of the basic thrust of the field for a work of that length and the fact that it is a bit dated, but given the complexities involved, my preferred primer to recommend for the field is ]'s ]--followed by ] and ] if the first gripes you. Pinker is not just one of the giants (and very much the "face") of the field, he is also one of the finest writers on scientific/empirical topics you will ever come across. ''How the Mind Works'' is nearly as old as the Buss article, which is to say nearly two decades in its own right, and a little technical in places compared to Pinker's later broad-audience works, but it's deeply insightful and representative of EP's value as an over-arching framework in which to conceptualize human cognition and behaviour. Highly recommended. Or, if you don't have time to read that much as you prep for uni, consider putting some of his talks on in the background, as he is basically just as good at explaining at least the broad strokes as a public speaker--part of how he has become a widely known public intellectual and one of the figureheads for the cognitive sciences in particular: , , , .
:::::::::Thanks for all those fascinating links! I really appreciate your helping out, and your kind words. ] (]) 16:19, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::Pinker is teaching Intro to the Sciences of Mind this spring. I can't wait! ] (]) 16:52, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::What an opportunity! I'd have given just about anything to have been able to take that class when I was an undergrad. Hell, I'd pay put the wazoo to audit the course today! Funnily enough, I had meant to respond to your previous post with a response along the lines of "My pleasure. Not sure what field you intend to study, but who knows, maybe all of this might have some influence on your interests; Harvard has some immense opportunities in this area." But with Pinker I was thinking you'd probably have to wait until graduate seminars. What a chance to start off contextualizing your study of the human mind through the guidance of a thinker with immense breadth of knowledge and a real gift for articulation. So cool! I know you'll have less time for the project in the coming months, but do let me know how you enjoy the course and if you move into the field, remember that this is an area in which I am always eager to collaborate with regard to Misplaced Pages content. :) (Though I daresay it seems we will both be intensely busy in the near-term). ] ] 23:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)


Has anyone ever taken you up on the rap battle offer? And how do you know so much about cults? Also the image on the bottom right of your userpage, Speech1.jpg, disappeared. ] (]) 08:07, 13 September 2024 (UTC)


:Hey {{u|Polygnotus}}, sorry for the slow reply; it's been quite a couple of days. :) As to the rap battles: ], so far! Regarding my knowledge of cults, I don't think I can point to any one source--though if I did, it might very well be en.Misplaced Pages RfCs and articles I became aware of through ANI. But really it's just an amalgamation I've developed from psychological research, news media, and Misplaced Pages: very little of my knowledge of how they operate is from first hand experience, despite the fact that I have from time to time lived near the epicenter of some of the larger such organizations.
:Hi, Sarah. I had missed that you had already addressed that point in the lead yesterday. I'm glad the need for it was seen by others and I'm grateful you were proactive on it. As a newcomer to the article I didn't want to make the change myself without first discussing it, given the strong positions there, but I daresay it's an ideal first step to clearing up the neutrality concerns. I still think it could be a little more explicit, but I gather from your edits and comments here that you'll be tinkering with it for a time yet. As regards my proposed text, I'm not in any sense married to that exact wording, but just for the record, I think it is consistent with the fact that meat consumption ''is'' a societal norm (for most cultures). Perhaps the meaning I intended would be more clear if I changed just one word: "...that many human beings make unspoken, and generally unchallenged, assumptions which cause them to ''<u>accept</u>'' the ] of ] as a default ], and to construct frameworks of personal ] which validate those choices." Anyway, I'm not pushing me exact wording, just want you to know that I think we are basically on the same page as to this point. Per my earlier comments, while I still have reservations as to whether carnism warrants an independent article (as opposed to being contextualized in a larger "meat psych" article), cleaning up the lead at least addresses one of my primary concerns that the basic definition we provide not be misleading to our readers.


:And yeah, poor speech1.jpg...I went to Commons to inquire about it, and apparently a volunteer there nominated it for deletion on the presumption that it's license was invalid. Their explanation for why seemed to involve some guess work, but when it comes to Commons, I am highly inclined to defer to the judgment of the regulars, since my experience there is limited. It is a shame though, because I carefully curated those images to balance along certain criteria, and for each one to represent multiple of the areas of interest referenced in my contribution areas list, and that one was good for both phonology/linguistics in general, as well as the high importance of discussion and consensus building on project (it was just a close-up image of a woman lips as she seemed to speak something softly). Oh well: I'll find something else that suits eventually: for the moment I left the file link in to remind me to do it sooner rather than later. '']]'' 09:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
:As to the precise meaning of "meat paradox", I actually did see the comment and I apologize for not responding -- I simply ran out of time. In truth I don't see the two definitions as mutually exclusive; they are to my mind slightly different ways of expressing the same principle, and I'm certain I've seen both variations in literature, but I could be mistaken. As to why I accept it as a decent title for the/an article, where I question carnism, it's because the basic principle that underlies the term is one that has been explored in observations of the psychology of diet. It's a concept that can be sourced more exhaustively than the basic thrust of Joy's work on the carnism model and it predates her work by quite a bit, even if the specific term might by attributed to her specific current in the research. Indeed, some of the sources which have grappled with the inconsistencies with which people approach disparate animals as a source of food are very old indeed; pre-modern and ancient in some cases. Which brings neatly to my slowness in providing the sourcing I promised by way of my contribution to the article. I'm trying to put them together, but just at the moment I am on the other side of the country from my personal library, so it I am having to do compensate with online resources and it is taking me longer than I expected, in part because of other obligations. Then too, I keep re-engaging in other discussions I was involved with when I do find a few Wiki moments -- I'm sure you recognize the situation. Please bear with me just a little longer. ] ] 02:47, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


== ICOC ==
::Hi Snow Rise, the "meat paradox" is the tension between people's behaviour and beliefs when it comes to meat consumption. Steve Loughnan of the University of Melbourne described it as: "Most people care about animals and do not want to see them harmed, but engage in a diet that requires them to be killed and, usually, to suffer." I believe he was the first to use it that way.


I understand and accept the direction given over at the ICOC Talk page to focus on the content rather than behaviour, I was just galled at CL’s claim of innocence after all that he subjected myself and others to around the COI issues!
::This is related to, but not the same as, the "species paradox," whereby certain non-human species are loved, others treated with great cruelty. The two are related in that both are forms of speciesism and (arguably) exploitation – neither the pampered chihuahua nor the pig in the factory farm are allowed to say no. The argument is that most people "like" animals in the way that patrons of strip clubs "like" exotic dancers. Anyway, please take your time re: sources, and thanks for your help. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:29, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


Having said that and turning to the content there have 63 edits made by TP and CL over a 4 day period, and like you mentioned it is almost impossible to keep up. At a high level they seem reasonably sourced, although heavily biased to the negative and not exclusively, but dominantly focused, on a select time period in the 1990’s. I tried to look at a few of the sources provided, the first one was a Proquest source I could not view because it was behind a paywall the second one was inserted into the article as:
== Please comment on ] ==


“A 1999 study found that a substantial MAJORITY of former ICOC members included in the study "reached clinically significant levels of psychological distress, depression, dissociation, anxiety, and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms". Two-thirds of them had sought psychotherapy after leaving the church.(I don’t know how to find the diff of this exact edit amongst the 63)
The ] is asking for participation in ]. <!-- Template:FRS message --> <!-- FRS id 30483 --> ] (]) 00:05, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


However on going and reading the source it says this: “a substantial MINORITY of former ICOC members included in the study "reached clinically significant levels of psychological distress, depression, dissociation, anxiety, and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms". Two-thirds of them had sought psychotherapy after leaving the church.”
== ''The Signpost'': 29 July 2015 ==


This is an egregious misrepresentation of a source!! I don’t want to escalate the conflict between myself and CL, but this is unacceptable! (I see another editor picked up this misrepresentation) So, in trying to find a reasonable solution moving forward, can I request a Rollback to the 10th of September and ask that each of these numerous edits goes through a proper vetting process on the Talk page to decide the proper WEIGHT and ACCURACY before they are added. This ] editing is subverting the consensus building process by the sheer overwhelming volume of edits. Also, between the two of them they have now authored nearly 40% of the ICOC pages content. Given TP and CL’s clear dislike of the church this is not right. ] (]) 14:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
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:Hi Jamie, apologies for not responding to this just yet: I have been slammed with obligations the last few days and the handful of moments I've found for the project in the last 24 hours have gone towards a few other issues, including on the ICoC talk page. Unfortunately I am off to something essential just now, but I promise I will do my best to respond in detail at some point this coming evening. '']]'' 10:00, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
== ] ==
::👍 ] (]) 11:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Hey Jamie, let me apologize again for the delay in response. I know it must have felt like I was ignoring you, but the truth is, I have given a lot of thought to the multiple issues raised by your post, and needed to take some time to consider my response. I'm going to break this down into the component issues:{{pb}}
:::*First, I can understand your frustration over the COI issue. Obviously from my statement at ANI and COIN, I don't think that CL and TPs take on the issue was in accordance with policy, and that's why I and others made such a strong stand on the issue. At the same time, that matter has been resolved, and as positively as could have been for you and the others accused of actionable COI because of your religious beliefs. {{pb}}But at the same time, I just don't think the community is likely to find that there was bad faith or abuse of process in the approach of TP or CL. There was a moment where I worried things might head in that direction, but eventually both of them took the community message to heart and have not pressed that angle further. So while I understand why you remain somewhat prejudiced in your view of them as a result of that hullabaloo, my strong advice is that holding on to it will do you no productive good.{{pb}}
:::*Likewise, I also see some justification in your feelings that the pace of editing on the article itself could be slowed a bit, but it's once again a case where I think an argument of outright disruption is going to be hard to make. There's no speed limit, as such, on Misplaced Pages, and if there were, I think I can say with confidence that it would be quite a bit higher than 63 edits over a few days, even for lower traffic articles. Further, TP and CL have engaged in discussion where challenged. And I don't have the authority to enforce a roll-back to a specific date.{{pb}} Now, one could politely ask them both to slow their pace a little and voluntarily agree for major new additions or deletions to first be vetted on the talk page, as a very short-term matter. If you wish, I will ping them here and make that appeal myself. I wouldn't say it's the worst idea in the world, given there is a lot of controversy over particular facts and labels, but it's very atypical and they would be completely free to reject that request.{{pb}}
:::*Regarding that majority/minority error: that's clearly an issue (although an honest mistake, I presume) and should be addressed asap. If you raise it on the talk page, I will support a change and even point out that this may be an indication that things are moving too fast. {{pb}}
:::*Unfortunately, regarding TP and CL's apparent suspicion and dislike of the church, I would guess that they would both say either that a) they don't really have a distaste for it, but have grown to have an expectation that issues will arise where the members of the church are involved in the article, or b) that their personal feelings are irrelevant, so long as they are following process and policy appropriately. As to the first, the only thing that can be done at this point is to ask them to try to keep an open mind. And as for the second, they would be right. Any criticism of their approach has to be rooted in conduct and their editorial calls. They are free to edit the article regardless of whether they may have a very low impression of the church, just as you are free to edit it despite having a high enough impression of it that you are religiously associated with it. (I think you are, anyway? In any event, you don't have to say unless you want to).{{pb}}
:::*Lastly, I want to get into some issues that I am considering tactfully suggesting on the talk page: some issues I have noted with the article since I was pinged there last week. And it may allow me to explain some things about Misplaced Pages editing and some unfortunate availability biases in sourcing that I think are making things difficult for you and other editors who want a less hard-edged approach to the one of the article:
:::::First off, I think we need a section on the ICC in the article. While the two churches are under different leadership, it is clear that at least some sources conflate them. And indeed, because of cross-over between beliefs, practices, and presumably people who have moved between the two churches as co-branches of one lineage deriving from the Churches of Christ, its hard to say that it would be wrong if someone openly considered the two churches to be essentially entangled. That doesn't seem to be the case with what was going on with that Herald article: there it seems the author was simply unaware of the distinction between the ICoC and ICC as two assemblies of congregations. But the fact that of the matter is, there's a shared and complicated history here, and the article could do a much better job of outlining it. That info could be in its own article (] is probably established I think) or the McKean article, but I think it probably makes most sense to have a subsection in the ICoC article. I think its possible I will be in the minority on that call though and that (for different reasons) both your camp and TP/CL's may be opposed to that solution.{{pb}}
:::::There's something else I want to say here that I think may both clarify something for you and also frustrate you. And on the way to explaining the issue, I'll share some speculation on matters that I wouldn't advocate for putting in the article, because to do so would rely too heavily on ]. Nevertheless, it involves some context which is probably worth being aware of. So, to wit: {{pb}}It may very well be that the ICoC has drastically altered it's internal culture and practices from the days when it first accrued it's current representation in the reliable sources we have to work with. It's hard for me to have a very strong opinion on that subject, insofar as I had never heard of the ICoC before the editors of the ICoC article landed at ANI a few weeks back. But I will say this: it's not exactly the most paradigmatic thing for a "cult" to toss its founding central figure out on his ear because the rank and file members of the organization felt that the expansion of numbers was being prioritized over the quality of the spiritual message. So that there does make me wonder if there was a genuine reform movement within the church initiated on principle, which may have led to substantial changes in the time since.{{pb}} Similarly, the fact that the Herald piece seems to have possibly been discussing an ICC student group (rather than an ICoC group) makes me wonder if maybe the most problematic and attention-grabbing recruiting practices for both groups (the ICoC previously and the ICC presently) are inter-mingled with McKean's leadership. Now that's not something that I can feel confident about with my little insight into the group and it's history, and therefore way, way outside anything I can urge being included in the article. But I wanted you to know that this possibility is something I have considered from what I have learned.{{pb}}But here's the part you aren't going to like: even if that is actually the truth of the matter, there's a real possibility you won't get even a small fraction of that narrative into the article any time soon. Because here's the tough part: if a religious group adopts controversial and "cult-like" practices, it's only a matter of time before some ] cover those activities and propensities. But if that same group effectuates even one of the most remarkable reform movements of any such group, that's just probably not going to be covered to the same extent by ]. "Church adopts more conventional Christian qualities with regard to proselytizing" is not a headline that is going to be as tempting to news organizations as "Christian youth group targets vulnerable juveniles on college campuses, imposes strict controls on lifestyle and relationships". Likewise, sociologists and religious and "cult" "experts" aren't going to be as interested in a movement becoming more mainstream. {{pb}}So the simple fact of the matter is, once a religious movement has a certain reputation for questionable recruiting practices or atypical and onerous control of the behaviour of their faithful, that can reputation can be hard to shake thereafter. In general, and with particular relevance to how we construct Misplaced Pages articles. Because if there was a successful reform movement, but it wasn't well covered in RS...not only are you going to have a hard time convincing many of the editors working on that article (and I must admit, our new religious movement articles do tend to attract sometimes over-zealous editors who over-correct in trying to keep out too much influence from the members of the groups themselves), but even if you do convince them, everyone's hands may be tied by the lack of ] of a change in the groups character.
:::So, I know you can't be jumping for joy about that last bit in particular, but I wanted to be on the level with you about the uphill task you are facing here, and why you're probably going to have to pick your battles here. All of that said (and I know it's a mouthful, but after your wait I figured you deserved a fulsome response), don't give up on the process. I do think that there are still issues with the tone of the article that can be improved upon. And I'm hopeful that the recent pinging of a number of veteran editors to the talk page may bear fruit in that regard. I'm very familiar with almost every name that was included in that list, and they are all old and steady hands, policy wise and I think their influence can be expected to slowly change the article, at least a bit. And I'm not saying that TP and CL are acting in bad faith or disruptively, but they are kind of at one extreme with regard to how to present the ICoC and I think they will probably have to accede to some changes in the tone of the article that you will probably appreciate. So let's give that process a little time to work itself through. Thanks for your patience in waiting for a response and your tenacity in reading through it. ;) I'm here for further discussion if you wish. Just bear with me on responses, because I have a lot going on, off-project. '']]'' 04:51, 20 September 2024 (UTC)


::::'']]'', thank you for your well reasoned response. It was worth the wait.
I will go ahead and do the merger, since nobody opposed it. ] (]) 15:01, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
::::I find myself agreeing with everything you say and understand your thoughts on each point. I am also very happy with all the new editors being drawn to the page as it can only bring a more balanced perspective.
::::I am wanting to believe that CL’s inversion of “minority“ to “majority” was an honest mistake, but I am struggling to trust that. After that flood of edits following the failed ANI attempt, we now have a total of 68 words in the article that are highly negative. The word “cult” alone is used 19 times. 3x’s in the LEAD. After this was highlighted in the recent Rfc, CL said “yes the lead needs a complete rewrite”, yet he is the primary author of that section. That type of faux innocence is simply staggering!!
::::Couple that to the feeling that myself, and no doubt other editors have felt, of being intimidated, (dragged before the COIN 3x’s, then the ANI, and one new editor being outright banned ]]  for unknowingly crossing the 3RR) and one has the sense that Misplaced Pages is condoning an Admin who uses ] and ] tactics to make sure his POV is pushed through. (Even ignoring the ] by his sidekick over at my talk page).
::::Moving on to the content related things. I appreciate you are busy and am very grateful at the time you have given already, but if you could take a look at ]#NPOV  and give some direction as how to bring more balance to the page.  (I have not been able to look at the progress in the last few days, as I am traveling and away from any kind of reliable internet connectivity) but there must be a way to address the ] weight given to the criticism.
::::Finally, you are 100% correct that one challenge we are facing is newspapers don’t sell if the stories are ‘run of the mill’, sensationalism sells. And there are people that make a good living capitalizing on peoples fears . So the best source I have been able to find on the reforms is this https://christianchronicle.org/revisiting-the-boston-movement-icoc-growing-again-after-crisis/
::::Anyway, thanks for helping restore my faith in Misplaced Pages, the community and its processes. . ] (]) 02:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)


:::::{{u|JamieBrown2011}} I'm very gratified if I have played some roll in convincing you that you are welcome in our community, irrespective of what initially brings you here. Since first commenting at ANI and thereafter being invited to provide further input on the talk page, I've tried to be equanimious in my observations, and have indeed found myself in turns agreeing more with one side or the other on the cluster of disputes. For what it is worth, I still do not think CL would knowingly invert the statement of a source like that. I also won't try to convince you that they and TP are the most absolutely dispassionate and neutrally-postured of editors on the subject matter, because not even I believe that. Then again, neither are you, my friend--though I say this with an amiable disposition, that I hope will come through. :) {{pb}}Lest I be misunderstood, let me say that I think both editors are operating in good faith, and that there is no doubt in my mind that their activities on the article in question are not only a net positive, but were probably initially a necessity to keep the article transparent about certain issues relating to the subject of this union of churches. But as was very plainly demonstrated on a number of ANI discussions last month (as well as some discussions at Village Pump and FTN that I observed but did not participate in), I think there is a growing issue of burn-out among editors who work assiduously in areas where they have to confront organized efforts at sanitizing articles about organizations who bring their own members into Misplaced Pages's editorial process. That and a number of personalities who should just not be involved in such areas in the first place because their approach is more disruptive than helpful.{{pb}} Let me be clear that I don't think TP or CL belong to the later group, but they may well belong to the former, and signs of having spent too long in the trenches in that area can involve an unnecessary level of ] with newcomers, especially those perceived to be ]s, and a lack of patience with the more time-consuming or repetitive elements of the consensus process. Nevertheless, while I and others considered the COI effort a bridge too far, and have had reservations on their reading of some of the more narrow content issues, I do believe the article is better for their presence. It's also better for your presence and Meta Voyager's, even if there has been an expected learning curve for you.{{pb}}Indeed, I'll go a step farther: while the contest of wills should never have gotten to where it was at the time of the ANI thread, and there were lamentable and hard to defend interpretations of policy on both sides, I think the article is better off (specifically more detailed and clear for a reader) for the temporary tension between the two sides. It's true that additional perspectives from experienced editors became necessary to synthesize the very disparate views on the content together, but I do think things are headed in the right direction now. And though I would not hold your breath for an apology over the COI thing, I would suspect that CL and TP have enough perspective to feel the same way and think the article has reached its best state since it hit its maximal cooks in the kitchen over recent weeks. I even hold out some hope that the two camps will eventually reconcile over a grudging respect for what each has brought to the table--or at least a less jaundiced eye for how good faith the other side's ultimate motivations are.{{pb}} As to the content issues, I will continue to provide an occasional word here and there, but you'll have to forgive me if they aren't as frequent or vociferous as with my initial engagement: off-project woes and obligations have my life very disordered and my time very strained. But I'll do what I can. Regardless, wishing you the very best moving forward on the project, and hope that we can entice you into contributing in other areas as well. '']]'' 23:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
]
::::::Thanks @], I will continue in good faith and hope to bring valuable insight to the project. BTW, is there anything you can do about the very harsh banning I mentioned above? ] (]) 15:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)


::::::: Hi, @] sorry to bother you for further advice. You have been a helpful voice in these matters in the past where I have lacked Misplaced Pages experience and sometimes perspective. I recently tried to place a few <nowiki>{{POV}}</nowiki> tags on the ICOC page to reflect the disputes currently happening over at the Talk page over the LEAD and the perceived lack of NPOV in the body of the page. One editor engaged in what could almost be described as edit warring. (reverting the tags 3 times in a 24 hour period). Then he took it to a NPOV noticeboard where I was accused of "Drive By" tagging! Honestly unbelievable. Only one other editor weighed in on the ongoing RFC on the LEDE. No commentary on the ongoing disputes around #NPOV on the talk page. Now, the policies seem clear about placing tags:
== Please comment on ] ==
::::::: <nowiki>Some tags, such as {{</nowiki>]<nowiki>}}, often merely indicate the existence of one editor's concern, without taking a stand whether the article complies with Misplaced Pages policies. It is important to remember that the POV dispute tag does </nowiki>''not'' mean that an article actually violates NPOV. It simply means that there is a current discussion about whether the article complies with the ] policy. In any NPOV dispute, there will usually be some people who think the article complies with NPOV, and some who disagree. In general, you should not remove the POV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV. Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved or—according to the rules for this specific template—when ].
:::::::Yet, I am told by TP and CL that I have to get "consensus for the Tags"?? The whole point of the tag is that there is NOT consensus!!! So I find once again, the impression of a refusal to allow policy to be applied when it disagrees with certain senior editors POV. I was under the impression that policy guides us all as editors. I certainly don't want to resort to edit warring, on what seems clear direction from the policies, so that leaves me turning to more experienced editors for advice. Please help? ] (]) 07:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Hi Jamie. So, my advice is to just let this the tag discussion go. Honestly, I see no flaw in your analysis of the relevant guideline language or its application, and more than a little to criticize in how TP and CL are interpreting it on the article talk page, but it's not a fight worth having, imo. Other editors might feel otherwise, but my observation of the impact of tags and of the necessity and value of having contests of will over them, is that they are one of the most massive wastes of time and demonstration of lack of perspective that you are going to find on the project. I don't think the average reader is heavily swayed by their presence (or really even knows what to make of them in the majority of cases), and the weight that your typical experienced editor gives them in informing their own analysis of content is, if anything, even more trivial.


:::::::Right now the talk page is benefiting from the engagement of excellent editors like North8000 and Valereee, who, aside from being very experienced, command a lot of respect in the community. I would avail yourself of the window you have in their engagement in mediating a reasonable path between the positions of the two camps of previously involved editors. The more you can form a consensus on now, the less likely are flare-ups of disruption again once they commit they are forced to commit their energies elsewhere. So fighting over the tags is not, imo, worth your energy or the distraction. I know that's probably not the sort of advice you were hoping for, but it's my chief recommendation, especially as I don't have the time to weigh in there again myself right now (I have very limited free time for the project at present and there are some major community issues right now that I have to utilize that time to follow. Best of luck too you, as always. '']]'' 21:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
The ] is asking for participation in ]. <!-- Template:FRS message --> <!-- FRS id 30667 --> ] (]) 00:00, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::OK, thanks. As always I appreciate you taking the time to respond. ] (]) 07:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)


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== If any theropods self-harm, it's on you ==
== Please comment on ] ==


Remember ]. You recent comment at ANI could be interpreted as encouraging theropods to suicidally ideate. ]] 23:56, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
The ] is asking for participation in ]. <!-- Template:FRS message --> <!-- FRS id 30936 --> ] (]) 00:00, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
:Good. They have been getting a free ride for far too long. You eat one lawyer in a Spielberg movie and suddenly you're the golden child. But I'm on to them: they are totally cold blooded and I'm pretty sure they see you even when you're not moving, so add gaslighting into the mix too. '']]'' 00:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
::As Jay Leno pointed out, that scene was totally unbelievable. A dinosaur would never eat a lawyer -- too greasy. ]] 00:43, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
:::I mean it's a reliable joke to have that guy eaten (if a bit of a case of low-hanging fruit). But also...I think that guy is the only person in the entire movie who said a single thing that made any kind of sense? Because, speaking of un-aliving one's self, no one on that island seems to have had a minimum level of competency for keeping themselves (or their grandchildren) from being eaten. At least the lawyer recognized the liabilities. '']]'' 01:16, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

== Thanks ==

Thank you for the constructive comments regarding the COI and SPA accusations, and sorry if my contribution to the discussions added to the 'hyperbolic' character of the argument. The Landmark article had been mostly peaceful and stable since the Arbcom case in 2014 (which largely boomeranged onto the detractor who proposed the arbitration) until about a year ago, when all the old disputes re-surfaced. ] (]) 11:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

:Hello {{u|DaveApter}}: my apologies, I did not mean to ignore you: my life has been a disordered mess for a number of reasons over recent weeks, and a response to you got lost in the mix. To address your concern...well, I will be honest that I didn't think your response 100% helpful, but neither was it the only or the worst of the broadsides that was exchanged. I just hope that the thread having been auto-archived with little engagement from un-involved community members other than myself has highlighted the fact that both sides are going to have to find a way to work through the content issues together.{{pb}} At present (or at least, last I saw of the evidence presented at ANI) no one is really due for community sanction or restraint, and we should hope that it stays that way. Obviously, considering the previous involvement of ArbCom, that's not a given, but I also see no reason things have to get that out of hand again. I get that there is a roving battle going on right now over all things purportedly "cult" oriented; we had three simultaneous discussions going at ANI just a few weeks ago relating to three separate organizations, and in each of those cases (all of which fizzled without sanction) the conduct of the parties that felt they were pushing back against COI editing was, (I felt anyway) at least as problematic as that on the side they were opposing. Do me a favour though, and don't go out of your way to quote me on that, since I have exhausted the amount of engagement I want to have with the topic for the immediate future, especially given how limited and blip-like my time for the project is just now.{{pb}} Point is, I understand some of your frustrations (as indeed, I also understand the frustrations of those who have been too long in the trenches combating a certain type of SPA editing). But my advice to editors who find themselves partisans on either side would be the same: my recommendation is to fight fire with water. Use the dispute resolution processes and invite broader community input to break deadlocks--RfC would seem especially germane in this case, so long as you limit its use to the major points of contention over serious content issues. You might not win on every point, but you'll reduce the disruption of two highly entrenched groups lobbing mortars from their respective unmoving positions. Great googly moogly...too much WWII imagery for me the last week. Anyhow, best of luck to you! '']]'' 21:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks a lot for the thoughtful and extensive comments, and apology accepted. ] (]) 13:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

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== Am I missing the joke? ==

Why does it say "USER TALK:Snow Rise" in all caps at the top? ] (]) 23:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

:Hey Vir! No joke--just a slight little jeuje of style for the top of the page, no doubt added years ago when I was exploring the invocation of html inside wiki markup, and adding colour to my user and talk pages as I went along in that process. Anyhow, what brings you my way in the first place, il mio amico? '']]'' 22:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::I saw your longform comments on ANI and decided to come over here and harass you again about science fiction. Just watched '']'' (2014) for the fourth time, and it's amazing how well it holds up. One thing about watching a film like this multiple times over many years is how much you miss and forget. For example, with my fourth viewing, the thing that stands out most to me now is how the highest echelons of the military couldn't figure out how to end the war with the aliens because they refused to consider the non-linear ramifications of the offensive attack needed as it didn't fit within their military paradigm. I never really paid attention to that subplot before, and there's a lot of neat ideas that come out of it. Meanwhile, I'm also trying to finish up ''Black Mirror''. I can't figure out why the US is completely incapable of making great shows like this. It's like the British have a monopoly on good drama. Explain it to me like I'm five. ] (]) 23:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Hey Vir, hang tight; haven't forgotten you--just that my free time this week can be measured in scant minutes! '']]'' 16:30, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
::::Just shooting the breeze; no hurry, no rush. ] (]) 23:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

== RFCs by the numbers ==

As a regular participant in RFCs, you might be interested in ]. The number of RFCs has declined significantly since 2020. ] (]) 00:13, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

:Thank you very much for the heads up on the discussion, and the research, {{u|WhatamIdoing}}; this is a topic I've been having some concerns, as part of a broader complex of issues with our processes seeming to become more opaque and less accessible, due to cultural shifts in the community and the promulgation of some notions that I would argue are ill-informed and counter-intuitive to serving the needs of the project. So your providing some data, however preliminary and subject to some certainties, and initiating that discussion is appreciated by at least one community member. :) That said, my time is extremely strained right now, so my engagement will probably come in fits and spurts. '']]'' 16:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
::I'd be happy to discover that the RFC page seemed to have wandered on to your watchlist. We've got a small group of regulars, and they're all nicer than I am, so I think you'd like the discussions. There is no urgency, so you can ignore the page for months and still be welcome when you come back. ] (]) 16:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

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== RfC ==

I took your advice and posted an RfC at ]. I was immediately accused of bad faith for posting it! Unfortunately very few uninvolved editors have joined in, and the discussion has had plenty of aspersions, sophistry and rhetorical flourishes. But perhaps some progress may be made. ] (]) 20:34, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

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== I took your advice ==

Hi Snow Rise, I took your advice and posted another RfC at Landmark Worldwide with a more specific focus, but unfortunately it hasn't attracted much interest beyond the editors who have already demonstrated polarised positions. A recent edit to the article which seemed to me to give a more balanced summary of the cited sources was instantly reverted twice without explanation. Do you have any suggestions? ] (]) 13:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

:Hi Dave, sorry for the slow reply: my attention and time is being pulled in a million directions right now. I did read the RfC through a couple days ago when you first messaged and just reviewed it again, and I do have some semi-detailed thoughts that I will try to share as soon as I can find the time (preview: my feelings land somewhere between the two "sides" on the weight issue). But in more direct response to your request for advice, my main suggestion is just to be patient: RfC/FRS volunteer time seems to be especially low just now, so you may have to wait a while for decent engagement. And remember that you can always relist the RfC after 30 days of there hasn't been enough participating to help move the needle. I'll try to pitch my perspective in as soon as I can. Best wishes until then. '']]'' 22:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you. Whenever it fits in for you. I am genuinely keen to have opinions from editors without prior prejudices on the topic, based on Misplaced Pages policies and accurate analysis of what the sources actually say. ] (]) 20:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

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== Dominating discussion ==

I say this as someone who often agrees with you, and finds that your arguments and rhetoric are generally sound: I think your persistence in utterly ''dominating'' every other participant with mountains of text, taking up vast quantities of visual space on the page and separating threads into "everyone else" and "Snow Rise" does a disservice to your position (which makes me sigh especially when I agree with the point buried in there). Do with this what you will. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 02:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

:I appreciate these observations in the spirit they were intended Rhodo. To be perfectly honest, I had hoped that my comments earlier in the week would be the extent of my involvement in the discussion. Only the perception of some institutional paralysis as the clock ticked down on the WMFs actions spurred me to comment further at all, let alone with such volume. That and, perhaps even more so, the new disclosures (which seem to conflict with the few assurances we have yet gotten from the WMF) from one of the volunteers who stands to have their life turned upside down reaching out to us directly.

:Let me assure you, I don't much relish this position. Discussions of this nature, pitting elements of our movement against one-another, are not within the scope of what I consider to be enjoyable and welcome engagement. In fact, I take dim view of those who seem to relish regular involvement in such topics. But I've perceived this to be a once in a wiki-lifetime, buck stops here situation: there are things needing saying, with major implications to the future of the movement and safety of this community's members, that weren't being said. And I found myself unprepared to leave them unsaid. But I do agree I've said my piece and then some at this point. Eek's frankly confusing actions and comments necessitated more than I'd hoped to say today, and I have one more direct question from TBUA that I will have to respond to briefly, but other than that and any further responses to comments directly specifically at me, I intend to to exert as light a touch as possible over the remaining discussion. '']]'' 03:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

::Dude, Trump has vowed to be a dictator from day one. If you don’t think he’s going after Misplaced Pages, then you aren’t paying attention. ] (]) 04:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
:::Hey Vir. I'm afraid I'm not following. For all I know you may very well be correct that the American alt-right will in some way come into direct conflict with the free information movement, but I'm not sure of the relevance to what Rhododendrites and I were discussing? '']]'' 04:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
::::No relevance, other than without a personal information protection law, you're fighting a losing battle. Trump originally won in 2016 because he got his hands on the Facebook behavioral data, the personal information of millions of users. You would think there would be some kind of public outcry and federal law written, but nope. That's how corporate America makes money, that's how Silicon Valley survives, and it's how conservatives win elections, by using our personal information against us. And you're deeply naive if you don't think key people working for the relevant orgs don't already have positions of authority within Wikimedia and have access to our personal information. I first became aware of this issue in 1993, when a police detective in San Francisco illegally collected the personal information of all of the activists working on political issues in the city and distributed it to an unknown and unnamed party. It was briefly covered by the mainstream media for a day or two. Good luck to you. ] (]) 05:07, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

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== A barnstar for you! ==

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|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | I rarely am as captivated by an abundance of clear-conscience and willingness to take a stand as I have been by your strong and strident communications over the ANI open letter and blackout discussion. Thank you for leading in a time when we need leaders. ]<sup> ]&#124;]</sup> 20:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
|}

::Thank you {{u|Ocaasi}}: that support means a great deal to me. I was hesitant to press for action both times we ultimately escalated the community response: both the open letter and the notion of a protest action. Like many on the other side of the blackout discussion, I have a strong respect for the role and remit of the WMF in this situation, and it is only the immensely alarming circumstances and indications we are dealing with that could leverage me into wanting to be near the center of such extraordinary proposals. But the combination of potential grave risk for those few individual editors, combined with the massive longterm implications for the viability of the project have had an immense impact on my position. world), but that's just not good enough in this situation.
::That and another somewhat more selfish impulse: I don't think that I can, in good conscience, stay with project if this is the shape of things to come. If the community does not do everything in its power to protect these editors who did nothing but keep faith with the traditional compact between this project and its volunteers, and the WMF does compromise their well-being in the way we fear they are about to, I think I will have to part ways with the project, indefinitely. And that thought has filled me with a profound sense of sorrow that has animated my leaning towards strong action even further.

::So you very much have my thanks also for trying to avert the feared outcome: yours are among a number of cogent and principled statements and positions that it has been a pleasure to read, even among the heavy and wearying circumstances. I do think the blackout was the right call, and I'm distressed that one editor was able to tank it--even be that person our first citizen, after a fashion. For now, I guess all we can do is hope for the best, difficult as that may be. That has been a theme for this year, when i think about it--so perhaps not surprising that we head into the final weeks as we do. '']]'' 21:02, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

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== WMF, courts, privacy ==

I'm sure my RfC input wasn't what you were hoping for. To address this in particular: {{tq|if the only outcome here is that more people become aware that Misplaced Pages's articles are being curated and censored by SLAPP suits in a foreign (or for Indians, there own domestic) court, that alone is a desirable end}} – I definitely agree with the sentiment as a general matter, but just didn't think a reader-facting "web blackout" move was a good vehicle for that. For reasons I think I covered pretty well in a generalized way. I will elaborate that the entire idea reminded me strongly of a situation in which someone I worked with for a long time, someone prestigious within the community at issue and highly important to our mutual employer, got incensed with a decision by that employer and engaged in something of a public threat display, and was instantly canned, no questions asked, as if just some temp receptionist. The entire environment changednearly overnight, with vastly increased bureaucracy and public-messaging gatekeeping, a sharp division between the board and the staff, bringing in of "administrative types" in executive positions over a surprisingly short span, then a bunch of staff turn-over, which I ultimately didn't survive either. That entity continues to this day, but is not the same, and operates in more of a corporate way, protecting its self-preservational interests, while focused far less on its original goals, on the things that made it worthwhile and effective. So, I'm extremely wary of triggering something along the lines of a metaphorical "autoimmune response" in an organization of this scope. I've seen how that can turn out. WMF is already poorly poised to handle something like that sensibly; I've written at some length before about how it is dominated at the board and executive level by tech-industry corporate types who treat this like a software company delivering products and services to a target market, instead of like a public-interest NGO providing an invaluable need to the world. So, let's not give an excuse to go more the former direction.

As for getting WMF to do the right thing and to continue having a spine: A cross-project "unionization" of sorts, of a bunch-ass of editors concerned about WMF caving to governmental demands for personally identifiable information, might do the trick, especially if a bunch of them/us write about the matter for external publications.

What I especially didn't like about this blackout idea was disrupting the site for everyday users who have no idea of the internal "politics" of this project and the foundation behind it, and would could not possibly be brought up to speed on such matters without a great deal of effort (assuming they were even interested, which for most is probably unlikely). There's a baby-and-bathwater issue at play here, and a serious chance of backfire. Not just in the "WMF turns internally controlling" sense that got my hackles up, but possibly external pressure from the reading public, along "WMF should not let various editor-users take it hostage like that again". We already have trouble convincing the world that we're presenting neutral content, and that would only get harder if the site itself were hijacked by an internal faction to broadcast something that was sort of a mixture of a labor-relations struggle and a pro-liberalism, anti-government message (even if a large swath of our readership, and certainly our editorial base, can be expected to align with the message). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 11:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==

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== WikiProject Human Rights Revival ==

Hi! I recently posted at ] about the lack of activity on the project and its being labeled as "semi-active". I noticed that you are a member of the project, and would like to get your input if possible. See ] on the Talk page, and if you have insight into possibly reviving the project or have any thoughts about it, feel free to comment. Thanks! ] (]) 22:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

== Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment ==

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== Administrators' newsletter – December 2024 ==

] from the past month (November 2024).

]

] '''Administrator changes'''
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] '''Interface administrator changes'''
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] '''CheckUser changes'''
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] '''Guideline and policy news'''
* Following ], the ] has been updated. All former administrators may now only regain the tools following a request at the ] within 5 years of their most recent admin action. Previously this applied only to administrators deysopped for inactivity.
* Following a ], a new speedy deletion criterion, ], has been enacted. This applies to template subpages that are no longer used.

] '''Technical news'''
* Technical volunteers can now register for the ], which will take place in Istanbul, Turkey. is open from November 12 to December 10, 2024.

] '''Arbitration'''
* The arbitration case '']'' (formerly titled '']'') has been closed.
* An arbitration case titled '']'' has been opened. Evidence submissions in this case will close on 14 December.

----
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== Feedback request: Economy, trade, and companies request for comment ==

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== New pages patrol January 2025 Backlog drive ==

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* On 1 January 2025, a one-month backlog drive for new pages patrol will begin in hopes of addressing the growing backlog.
* Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles and redirects patrolled.
* Each article review will earn 1 point, while each redirect review will earn 0.2 points.
* ] will be given out based on consistently hitting point thresholds for each week of the drive.
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* Interested in taking part? ''']'''.
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== Feedback request: Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines request for comment ==
== Your last edit to the ANI thread was unfortunate ==


]Your feedback is requested &#32;at ]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of ] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by ].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by ] :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact ]. &#124; Sent at 03:31, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
You seem to have completely misinterpreted the dispute. Catflap's 88 reference, for instance, was never even mentioned by anyone other than me, until the last ANI thread, so you claiming he was rebuked and warned by numerous users was flawed. I'm not going to respond to the rest, but claiming that I should be "TBANned" (''de facto'' SBANned) for complaining that Catflap08 has been violating our IBAN without ever violating it myself (in the last thread you told Catflap08 that he violated it and I didn't -- has your opinion changed?) was way out of line.


== Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment ==
You and I (I think) first interacted as a result of one of the botched RFCs in question, but to the best of my knowledge you and I don't normally edit in the same article areas, so I have no reason to come into conflict with you again. Should the present IBAN issue come up again I will not ping you, as I think you requested earlier.


]Your feedback is requested &#32;at ]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of ] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by ].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by ] :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact ]. &#124; Sent at 16:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Good bye and good luck.


== Happy Holidays ==
] (<small>]]</small>) 08:41, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 4px solid #FFD700;"
:Well I've never specifically requested that you not ping me--I've only pointed out that some of those pings have apparently not resulted in the support or perspectives you've anticipated. You can feel free to ping me in the future or not, as you wish, but if you do, I'm going to be honest as to which of you I feel is, at the time, pressing this disruption forward, whether it's you or Catflap. The fact is that in this case you brought your disruptive personal battle back to the noticeboards for a seventh round, without proper evidence, as part of a tit-for-tat response to Catflap's AN posting. And I suspect you only narrowly avoided a topic ban because an admin shut down discussion before consensus could resolve itself--and this is the not the first time you have been lucky in exactly this way. I honestly would not press that luck another time.
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 2px;" | ]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 2px 2px 0 2px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2025!'''
|-
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----
'''Hello Snow Rise, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this ]. Spread the ] by wishing another user a ] and a ], whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2025. <br />Happy editing,'''<br />
] (]) 00:04, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


''{{resize|96%|Spread the love by adding {{tls|Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.}}''
:You actually were right that it would be better for everyone had the IBAN at least been removed, but as it is still in place (and indeed regardless of the status of the bans) I think you really, really need to take Drmies' comments in closing that thread to heart, because patience with this feud between you and Catflap is clearly exhausted on AN, ANI and for the community broadly, and I don't think you can count on luck seeing you through the next discussion if we have to have one; I don't think Drmies was being dramatic for effect when he said he very nearly blocked the both of you just to be done with this drama. You and Catflap (by failing to reach for common ground and instead creating a gravity well of animosity and drama that has repeatedly pulled in numerous other editors and sucked up their time) have lock-stepped yourselves into a classic scenario of ], as tolerance is so low for either of you on this matter now. So both of you are now sitting on the trigger, and either one of you could easily get the both of you banned or indeffed. Time to find ways to deescalate this situation, no matter how devoted you each are to the content area. Just my two cents. Good luck to you as well. ] ] 09:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
|} ] (]) 00:04, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 00:04, 25 December 2024


    This user is busy with off-project obligations and, with apologies, may not respond to all inquiries quickly at this time.    





Notice: I take all complaints in the form of epic rap battles.



Archive

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Centralized discussion For a listing of ongoing discussions, see the dashboard.
Administrators' Newsletter
December 2024


The Signpost
24 December 2024


Administrators' newsletter – January 2024

News and updates for administrators from the past month (December 2023).

Administrator changes

added Clovermoss
readded Dennis Brown
removed

CheckUser changes

added
readded Maxim
removed

Oversighter changes

added
readded Maxim
removed

Arbitration

Miscellaneous

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:54, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Notification: Feedback request service is down

Hello, Snow Rise

You may have noticed that you have not received any messages from the Misplaced Pages:Feedback request service for over a month. Yapperbot appears to have stopped delivering messages. Until that can be resolved, please watch pages that interest you, such as Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Wikipedia policies and guidelines.

This notification has been sent to you as you are subscribed to the Feedback Request Service. - MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:11, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – February 2024

News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2024).

Administrator changes

added
removed

Bureaucrat changes

removed Worm That Turned

CheckUser changes

removed Wugapodes

Interface administrator changes

removed

Guideline and policy news

  • An RfC about increasing the inactivity requirement for Interface administrators is open for feedback.

Technical news

  • Pages that use the JSON contentmodel will now use tabs instead of spaces for auto-indentation. This will significantly reduce the page size. (T326065)

Arbitration

  • Following a motion, the Arbitration Committee adopted a new enforcement restriction on January 4, 2024, wherein the Committee may apply the 'Reliable source consensus-required restriction' to specified topic areas.
  • Community feedback is requested for a draft to replace the "Information for administrators processing requests" section at WP:AE.

Miscellaneous

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Feedback requests from the Feedback Request Service

Your feedback is requested at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (Korean) on a "Language and linguistics" request for comment, and at Talk:President of Venezuela on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment, and at Talk:Western tulku on a "Religion and philosophy" request for comment. Thank you for helping out!
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment

Your feedback is requested at Talk:Battle of Haldighati on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment. Thank you for helping out!
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Administrators' newsletter – March 2024

News and updates for administrators from the past month (February 2024).

Administrator changes

added
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Bureaucrat changes

removed SilkTork

Guideline and policy news

Technical news

  • The mobile site history pages now use the same HTML as the desktop history pages. (T353388)

Miscellaneous

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment

Your feedback is requested at Talk:Republican Party (United States) on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment. Thank you for helping out!
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Feedback request: History and geography request for comment

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Administrators' newsletter – April 2024

News and updates for administrators from the past month (March 2024).

Administrator changes

removed

Guideline and policy news

Technical news

  • The Toolforge Grid Engine services have been shut down after the final migration process from Grid Engine to Kubernetes. (T313405)

Arbitration

Miscellaneous

  • Editors are invited to sign up for The Core Contest, an initiative running from April 15 to May 31, which aims to improve vital and other core articles on Misplaced Pages.
Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

New Pages Patrol newsletter April 2024

Hello Snow Rise,

New Page Review queue January to March 2024

Backlog update: The October drive reduced the article backlog from 11,626 to 7,609 and the redirect backlog from 16,985 to 6,431! Congratulations to Schminnte, who led with over 2,300 points.

Following that, New Page Patrol organized another backlog drive for articles in January 2024. The January drive started with 13,650 articles and reduced the backlog to 7,430 articles. Congratulations to JTtheOG, who achieved first place with 1,340 points in this drive.

Looking at the graph, it seems like backlog drives are one of the only things keeping the backlog under control. Another backlog drive is being planned for May. Feel free to participate in the May backlog drive planning discussion.

It's worth noting that both queues are gradually increasing again and are nearing 14,034 articles and 22,540 redirects. We encourage you to keep contributing, even if it's just a single patrol per day. Your support is greatly appreciated!

2023 Awards

Onel5969 won the 2023 cup with 17,761 article reviews last year - that's an average of nearly 50/day. There was one Platinum Award (10,000+ reviews), 2 Gold Awards (5000+ reviews), 6 Silver (2000+), 8 Bronze (1000+), 30 Iron (360+) and 70 more for the 100+ barnstar. Hey man im josh led on redirect reviews by clearing 36,175 of them. For the full details, see the Awards page and the Hall of Fame. Congratulations everyone for their efforts in reviewing!

WMF work on PageTriage: The WMF Moderator Tools team and volunteer software developers deployed the rewritten NewPagesFeed in October, and then gave the NewPagesFeed a slight visual facelift in November. This concludes most major work to Special:NewPagesFeed, and most major work by the WMF Moderator Tools team, who wrapped up their major work on PageTriage in October. The WMF Moderator Tools team and volunteer software developers will continue small work on PageTriage as time permits.

Recruitment: A couple of the coordinators have been inviting editors to become reviewers, via mass-messages to their talk pages. If you know someone who you'd think would make a good reviewer, then a personal invitation to them would be great. Additionally, if there are Wikiprojects that you are active on, then you can add a post there asking participants to join NPP. Please be careful not to double invite folks that have already been invited.

Reviewing tip: Reviewers who prefer to patrol new pages within their most familiar subjects can use the regularly updated NPP Browser tool.

Reminders:

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: Biographies request for comment

Your feedback is requested at Talk:Ariana Grande on a "Biographies" request for comment. Thank you for helping out!
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment

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Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment

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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment

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Djong (ship) has an RfC

Djong (ship) has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you.

Talk:Djong (ship) on a "History and geography" request for comment-- your comment would be greatly appreciated Merzostin (talk) 14:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

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New page patrol May 2024 Backlog drive

New Page Patrol | May 2024 Articles Backlog Drive
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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment

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The Buk/covina edit

Let me begin by thanking you for commenting on my case at AN/I. I hesitated about writing here, so it does not seem like I'm litigating the issue further; the fact is that I actually fully agree with 95% of your latest comments, and the remaining 5% that I somewhat disagree I don't think compelled I should be commenting on it without it seeming that I am wasting the community's time. I have read your comment carefully, and you are obviously correct about at least some of those edit summaries being, well, juvenile, even disregarding what behavior I was answering to. I have never in fact said that that the past edit summaries were ever warranted in themselves -- I merely objected that they aren't, as had been argued by one editor who revived them, persistent and disqualifying bad behavior.

I am returning here and taking up a bit more of your attention merely to suggest another glance at one of the diffs you brought up in your analysis. Namely this one. Allow we underscore: you are right in saying that the edit summary had breached WP:CIV, and I have acknowledged as much by that point the AN/I review. However, you defined the summary as "elicited by your taking exception to the spelling of a proper noun/toponym in it's non-native language". This is not the issue I was addressing, though, and it makes it seem (for instance, to an admin reviewing my case), that I am rude to editors who simply have another spelling preference of "Bukovina".

Please take an additional 10 seconds to review the edits I was reverting: here. The edit summary for the one intermediary edit states out the claim that the spelling is "wrong", but this is not simply an issue of "correcting" (or rather, a clumsy attempt at Romanianizing the nomenclature). These edits, which are 100% of that IPs contribution on wikipedia, amount to a degradation of content: they break links by blindly replacing any mention of "Bukovina" with "Bucovina" -- for instance, by creating "Duchy of Bucovina", a redlink instead of a bluelink on Duchy of Bukovina. The redlink could technically be filled as a redirect to the "Duchy of Bukovina" article -- though even then, that extremely Romanianized version, changing the name of the polity (and not merely of the region) to one that was only extremely rarely used in Romanian, and possibly never in English, would probably be extremely exotic.

To resume and close this: the Iacob Zadik article is a B-class one, with me having been the one to bring it there (through expansion of a stubby article). The edits by the IP had went unnoticed for some two months (including by me), with the content effectively degraded for those two months. Again: not the nomenclature itself is at issue, but the blind promotion of the "Bucovina" spelling to the point of disrupting good content. The blindness of the edits was also in proportion to a political agenda: adding "Bucovina" (Romanian-only) or "Bukovyna" (Ukrainian-only) in all-English contexts is not merely a preference, it is a statement about who the region "really belongs to".

I am obviously not right to have called the degradation what I called it, in my exasperation at seeing the claim that content degradation (from bluelinks to redlinks) is presented as a "correction". Nothing of what I'm writing here is along the lines of "come on, both you and I know that the edit was indeed cretinous". But I would appreciate it if you could revisit your description of this dispute between me and the IP: I am not the sort of editor who calls others names just because "I take exception to the spelling of a proper noun/toponym in it's non-native language"; I am the sort of editor who, once in a blue moon, lost his cool at seeing objective degradation of an article, which the IP was using as a pawn in some sort of abstruse political battle. I only insist here (and I do apologize for taking up your time) because an admin reading your good-faith summary of that interaction, and not wishing to revisit the diff themselves, may be promoted to assume that I engage in behavior much more disruptive than it actually was. If, upon reading the above, you see any grounds for marginally adjusting that review of the interaction between me and the IP, I would be thankful to you; either way, thank you for your time. Dahn (talk) 05:24, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi again, Dahn. That's an entirely reasonable request, and I'll post an amendment to my observations stating that I do believe you when you say that response was animated by a desire to avoid broken links and not merely a disagreement over the spelling.
That said, I hope you'll forgive me for telling you something I think you already know when I re-emphasize that I feel the emotional response was unwarranted helpful, irrespective of whether the original dispute arose primary out of spelling conventions alone, or potentially broken links.
But I have no problem supporting your assertion that the situation tweaked your nose because of a pragmatic concern quite aside from spelling, insofar as I completely believe that. And I want you to know that, anything I said in the ANI discussion not withstanding, I'm sorry things went so roughly for you. I meant what I said when I stated that you seem like an asset. Just do us a favour and try to keep the name-calling out of it. 'Kill them with kindness', my friend--that's my advice when dealing with vandals, SPAs, or even just well-intentioned but wrong-headed editors. Your signal flares attempting to get help will shine much more clearly if the skies are clear of any smoke resulting from the surrounding terrain being torched. If you'll forgive a tortured metaphor. SnowRise 05:53, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment

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Administrators' newsletter – May 2024

News and updates for administrators from the past month (April 2024).

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment

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Always precious

Ten years ago, you were found precious. That's what you are, always. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment

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I mean fair...

I mean fair, but MOS:SMALLFONT says that "the HTML <small>...</small> tag has a semantic meaning of fine print or side comments", that was a side comment, that's why I made it small. If there is consensus against using small at all, please tell me so I can safely put it in my head to not use it anymore. – 2804:F14:80BE:B501:4013:AA93:E6BD:4D (talk) 00:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, the sentence of SMALLFONT that you quote is really talking about rare exceptions to the rule of using the standardized font size in the context of mainspace edits (hence it's location in MoS and the fact that it cites not to a community discussion but to an external page discussing the function of the <small> html tag for the purposes of fine print). For guidance on how to format text in community discussions, see WP:TPG; the relevant language is spread throughout the article, but see for example "Technical and format standards" section, which advises to avoid "font gimmicks" and the "Good practices for discussions" section (advising to "Keep the format clear: use standard formatting and threading."). I'll grant you it's somewhat oblique in the second instance, but taken in the context of the rest of the page, I think it very much is meant to urge standardization of formatting of discussion to maintain maximum accessibility for all participants. Remember that not all users (and not all editors even) have access to the site through a PC utilizing a monitor, or through other standard devices with large screens or strong auto-refactoring tools. And of course others have vision impairment. In any event, I can tell you that the longstanding community practice is to enforce standardization of font text in normal discussion posts. The one lingering carveout that has failed to go away entirely is that small font is sometimes used to mark joking comments that are completely immaterial the editorial or community issue being discussed. But there's pushback on even that practice. Long story short, if your comment has any kind of even remote direct bearing on the discussion at hand, it should use standard text formatting (size included), even if you would judge it to be a minor point. This forecloses the possibility of someone being left out of loop on information and the potential for confusion. Afterall, a point you regard as minor may very well end up not being so to other editors or the community at large--particularly in a behavioural discussion. Thanks for stopping by; I hope you have a good day, on project and off. SnowRise 01:39, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for explaining, I'll avoid using small. Wish I had looked up the guidance before I did it in many places over the months(or years? unsure when I started doing it), including when asking slightly off-topic questions, pretty sure I just copied someone doing it...
Anyways, thanks, I wish you a good day too. – 2804:F14:80BE:B501:4013:AA93:E6BD:4D (talk) 02:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Well, it's honestly not a huge deal: it's the type of thing you can typically expect a gnome to correct, and usually doesn't get more attention than that. :) And you're welcome--happy to be of help! SnowRise 03:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – June 2024

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:44, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

RSP definition

I don't want to derail the discussion at WP:RSN further, but I have been thinking along the same lines as your recent post on the topic recently, and I have been wondering if the way to address this is by setting clear definitions of reliability, and clear definitions of the evidence required to demonstrate that these expectations are met. This should prevent editors from being able to use RSN to disqualify sources they disagree with unless there is a genuine issue with the source - in which case, we should get rid of it.

A broad definition of a reliable source is one that has sufficiently robust editorial process to prevent major errors and issue corrections and retractions when such errors do occur. Based on this, what I've been thinking for a while now is the following:

Extended content

To determine whether a source is reliable we need to be able to assess whether their process at identifying false and misleading information is sufficiently robust. A reliable source should only place true information in their own voice, should attribute questionable information, and should not publish hoaxes. However, sources are not expected to be perfect; errors which a source retracts in a timely manner do not impact the sources reliability.

Assessing this requires careful and extensive analysis of the sources publications.

  • Generally reliable sources: These are sources with a robust editorial processes that minimize significant errors and issues timely corrections when mistakes occur. They are defined as sources with unretracted significant errors in less than 0.1% of articles.
  • Partially reliable sources: These are sources that are still generally reliable but have a slightly higher rate of significant errors. They are are defined as sources with unretracted significant errors in less than 1% of articles. Editors should exercise additional caution when using the source, and when a partially reliable source disagrees with a reliable source on a question of fact editors should defer to the reliable source.
  • Generally unreliable sources: These are sources with frequent significant errors, indicating less rigorous editorial processes. They are defined as sources with unretracted significant errors in more than 1% of articles. Editors should be very cautious about using the source, and if it is used it should be attributed.
  • Deprecated sources: These are sources with pervasive and systematic issues, making them unreliable for most purposes. The are defined as sources with unretracted significant errors in more than 5% of articles. They should not be used except for "about-self" statements.

Every effort should be made to permit the continued use of the source in at least some capacity on Misplaced Pages. This means that when errors are identified editors should determine whether they are systematic to the paper or limited to a definable area. For example, TRT World is considered unreliable for subjects with which the Turkish government could be construed to have a conflict of interest.

Process

Sources may only be added to WP:RSP through formal discussion in the form of an RfC.

At least one month prior to opening the RfC an editor must announce their intention to do so on at WP:RSN. They must at this time publish the systematic review that they will use to contest the current reliability assessment, to give editors who disagree time to review the evidence and counter it.

Reviews must be provably systematic. This means the following requirements must be met:

  1. The methodology for choosing the articles must be described, and it must be sufficiently detailed that any editor can repeat the process and get the same articles.
  2. All reviewed articles must be listed, including those that did not have issues
  3. All identified issues must been proven by reference to reliable sources demonstrating that the claim is false

The discussion should focus solely on any reviews posted. To prevent classification in line with the review, editors must demonstrate that either the process to select articles was flawed, the evidence is not significant, or a sufficient number of the errors identified were either not errors or not major errors. For the latter, editors must present reliable sources supporting the claim made by the source under discussion.

The closer must first assess whether there is a consensus that the process to select the articles was appropriate and that the evidence is statistically significant. If there is not, then there is no change to the current classification of the source.

If there is, then the closer must consider each identified error to determine whether there is a consensus that it is a major error. This then produces the adjusted number of errors:

  1. Errors with consensus they are an error add 1
  2. Errors with consensus they are not an error add 0
  3. Errors with no consensus add 0.5

Dividing this by the number of sources considered gives the percentage, and this is directly used to classify the source.

This is intended to provide a structure that prevents cherry picking data and minimizes the ability of editors POV's to impact the result.

Previous classifications

For sources classified under the previous system a streamlined process is provided to review them. Editors may dispute a sources assessment by posting at RSN and adding a {{RSP-disputed}} tag to the entry. Editors who support the current rating then have two months in which to provide a systematic review supporting its current classification. After the two months, if no editor posts such a review, the entry is removed from RSP.

If such a review is posted, either editor may open an RFC after at least one month has passed, which will follow the process defined above. However, if there is not a consensus that the process to select the articles is appropriate or that the evidence is statistically significant then the result in the source is removed from RSP.

Error classification

Minor errors are errors that do not significantly alter the understanding or interpretation of the news story. These errors are usually factual details that, while incorrect, do not change the overall context or meaning of the report.

For example:

  • Misspelling of a name or a title.
  • Incorrect dates that do not impact the sequence of events.
  • Minor numerical inaccuracies that do not affect the overall statistical interpretation.
  • Typographical errors.

Major errors are significant inaccuracies that can alter the understanding, context, or perception of the news story. These errors can mislead the audience, change the narrative, or damage the credibility of the news source and the individuals involved.

Errors in attributed claims are generally considered minor unless the claim was a major part of the story or was a deliberate hoax, in which case we would still expect a reliable source to issue a correction.

Retractions

Mistakes happen. We do not consider these to affect a sources reliable if they correct them promptly and with due prominence.

This is based on broadly accepted standards:

  1. IPSO says A significant inaccuracy, misleading statement or distortion must be corrected, promptly and with due prominence, and — where appropriate — an apology published.
  2. SPJ says Acknowledge mistakes and correct them promptly and prominently. Explain corrections and clarifications carefully and clearly.
  3. Reuters says Reuters is transparent about errors. We rectify them promptly, clearly and comprehensively, whether in a story, a caption, a graphic or a script.
  4. Press Council of India says When any factual error or mistake is detected or confirmed, the newspaper should suo-motu publish the correction promptly with due prominence and with apology or expression of regrets in a case of serious lapse
  5. Canadian Association of Journalists says When we make a mistake – whether in fact or in context, and regardless of the platform – we correct it promptly, prominently and in a transparent manner, acknowledging the nature of the error

Do you have any thoughts on this? BilledMammal (talk) 10:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey BM. I have feelings too mixed and complicated on the subject to be sharing them in anything approaching an adequate form in the scarce few moments I have available to address such an inquiry today. I promise I'll make it a priority the very next time I can get on project, probably in a day or two. But I didn't want you think I was ignoring you until then. Best wishes to you in the meantime. SnowRise 12:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit summary at ANI

I was a bit baffled by this edit summary. I can assure you it would not even occur to me to "disregard the rules merely to jump the queue and get response higher up". I see that you figured it out a couple of edits later, but can I ask how you managed to jump to such a silly conclusion? If, as I suspect, you were influenced by Grorp's refactor and comment here, then I'll point out that their response was as silly and precipitate as yours. I had responded, correctly, to their assertion at the start of the section, since that was the topic of discussion, and they mistakenly thought I was responding to the collection of "notes" which they had arbitrarily dropped on the talk page (as, incidentally, is their habit – I personally don't think personal 'notes' sections are appropriate for talk pages, particularly in the middle of a focused discussion, but I guess there's nothing in the guidelines about it). They proceeded to move my comment out of place in exactly the way you did, with an equally inappropriate and officious admonition. In my opinion, your summary analysis of what went on at that page is as hasty and ill-judged as your edit summary, although it's nice that you opined "in the spirit of fairness". It was surprizing to me because I "had you pegged", to employ Grorp's charming turn of phrase, as one of the more sensible editors on wikipedia. I won't be editing the page anymore, but I'll discuss it here if you wish to, but it's not important and I'm happy to drop it. Harold the Sheep (talk) 00:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi Harold. The best I can say to explain my misreading of the situation there was that it was a case of errant pattern recognition. As I recall, your post used one-too-many levels of indent for the message it was meant to respond to, and I momentarily mistook this for being the old trick that some people sometimes use in order to move their responses higher up in the chronology of messages while still making it "clear" who they are responding to--something we see a lot at ANI and other fora where people place a premium on efforts to defend their conduct. This is against policy, of course, because it complicates the normal discussion/thread format, but people still do it from time to time. In reading your message, I thought this was what was going on, because of the extra level of indent. But no sooner had I refactored when I realized that it was clearly an error on my part, so I placed the post back where it belonged and merely corrected the indent level. At least, that's how I recall it. I probably should have known you were too experienced to be employing such formatting, but the misread was a matter of a good faith mistake.Now as for my take on the issues that brought you and the other parties to ANI in the first place, I'm sorry if my analysis feels uncharitable or inaccurate to you, and if it has thus reduced your appreciation for my perspective on such things. Mind you, my first comment and priority there was focused on the fact that I felt the OP had needlessly escalated the matter to ANI and had failed to show due diligence in following normal dispute resolution processes before hand, and that your conduct was well bellow the threshold of anything that needed reporting or correction by the community. I continue to feel that was the case. However, that doesn't mean that I didn't feel there was some blame to be spread around regarding discussion becoming non-productive on the article talk page itself. I do think there were moments there were your tone became a little bit battlegroundish. Again, nothing I thought justified an excursion to ANI (especially without efforts to talk it out with you first), but I can see where your choice of words could have contributed to the other two feeling that you were not super open to contrary opinions. And I continue to stand by that part of the assessment too. It wasn't meant to be a particularly severe or concerned observation so much as a nudge from someone not involved in the dispute which I hoped would therefore give it at least a little bit more credibility. That said, the underlying dispute is obviously moot if you're determined not to involve yourself in that article further. I'm sorry that a more collaborative solution was not achieved, but for what it's worth, I respect an editor who decides that certain disputes represent too much inefficiency in constructive use of one's project time to be worth pursuing them to the end. In any event, best wishes on whatever you're off to work on next. SnowRise 12:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – July 2024

News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2024).

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added
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Miscellaneous

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughts at ANI

Hi SnowRise. I just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful posts at the ATG thread at ANI. In particular, your posts in the "off-wiki forums" subsection were very good. I started the thread disagreeing with you, and while I still feel there's some nuance to it, I'm coming down more and more in line with your thinking. The thoughts on outing in particular hit home; however easy it'd be to enforce the civility side of things, it would definitely open a procedural door for malicious outing under the guise of, "This account said a bad thing. Is this you?" All this to say: thanks for sharing your thoughts, they changed my opinion, and I hope you have a great day. EducatedRedneck (talk) 15:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you EducatedRedneck: it's quite thoughtful of you to take the time to come here and say as much, and I very much appreciate it. So often on this project, as with our culture in general (and more and more as the years go on), it can feel like major policy discussions are largely boiling down to two sides lobbing rhetorical mortars at eachother from their pre-decided entrenched positions, with little hope of anyone being persuaded of much. It is very helpful to be reminded of the fact that the situation is not always as severely intractable as it may seem at first blush these days.
What's more, I'm especially grateful for that feedback in this case because I really don't like being in a position of telling my fellow community members that they just have to suck it up and absorb insults in these situations. It's very much the opposite of my usual stance on such things here. If they talk about me at all on WPO (I don't care to check) I'm sure it's to call me a "civility scold" or somesuch, since I've had people say as much to me here after taking hard lines (sometimes against popular and/or well-respected users) on chronic incivility. It's an increasingly unpopular view, it sometimes feels, but I do think that WP:CIV is every bit as important as the other pillar policies, if not the most important. It's just that in this case, the consequences of reaching as far as some would have us, are so potentially dangerous to the real world safety and wellbeing of our individual community members, and so potentially corrosive to the overall culture of our community and the project's stability.
But even being as convinced of this as I am, it still makes for saying things I don't like having to say to people who are on the receiving end of often times petty, if not outright bullying, behaviour. So hearing from even one person that I am not saying it for no good purpose is very welcome. Have a great day, ER--and please don't be a stranger to my workspace. :) SnowRise 16:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Reply

Well, I checked your reply on ANI . Thank you, but I would like to disagree on one point. When someone's behavior (let's say contributor X) is debated on ANI, I believe it is completely appropriate to discuss the potential issues on the user X talk page and politely explain such potential issues to them. It is frequently the case that a user misunderstands WP policies. Other users have an obligation to explain the specific issue and the policies to user X, prior to complaining elsewhere, for example. And that is exactly what user The Kip (who started the conversation) and me did. There was nothing inappropriate there. As about the responses by user X, I think they were telling in a couple of aspects and as such were also helpful. My very best wishes (talk) 15:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry MVBW, but I'm afraid I must stand by my assessment of your decision to comment on their talk page in the manner that you did, at the time that you did. Your engagement there and The Kips are not analogous, as indeed I noted in my comments at ANI. The Kip commented as a party not involved in the dispute and as such, despite more than a little bit of a hint of reproach and warning in their comments, JDiala's response was mostly receptive and the discussion productive and moving in the right direction. Your choice of that moment to leap on to the talk page of the party you were currently in a dispute with, when said dispute was already being examined at ANI, in order to re-litigate one of the elements of that dispute, was, I'm sorry, very ill-considered and, if I'm being perfectly blunt, a bad look in the circumstances.
And all the more so because I'm not at all convinced that you are any more on the right side of the policy you wanted to continue to assert your position about than JDiala is. Based on the extensive forgoing dispute, it's pretty clear that both you and they both understand how BRD operates. Rather the locus of the dispute is clearly around who had the "advantage" of the status quo/consensus version of the article, and therefor whose "bold" edit triggered the BRD cycle. Which, to be clear, is very much something both of you should have stopped arguing about a while ago, in favor of pursuing a standard dispute resolution option to address the underlying content issue. But you instead chose this least opportune possible moment in order to lecture and "explain" BRD to JD, despite the fact that they clearly understand what the policy requires, and merely differ with you on who violated the principle first. This despite the fact that A) you had already gone ten rounds with them on the article talk page over this, and B) they had expressly stated at the ANI that this was the issue that was frustrating them.
How you thought that this could do anything other than inflame the situation, and are even going so far as to double down on the assertion that it was a helpful thing to do after the fact, is a little beyond me. This wasn't a case of trying to de-escalate the situation before ANI by providing another user with new information that might help them avoid trouble: the matter had already been taken to ANI and had community eyes on it, and there was no reason for you to believe that the other user would interpret any perspective you supplied on the policy as helpful new information. Nor was your situation or approach analogous to The Kip's role there. If anything, you derailed any benefit that was being accrued from his intervention with the user.
Let me be clear that I AGF that for some reason you thought this was the helpful and right thing to do, but if that's really the case, you seriously need to recalibrate your perspective for any similar situations in the future. Because as an outsider looking in, who has now reviewed all of the previous talk page dispute in addition to the ANI, it is unambiguous to me that the only possible outcome here was that you were going to replicate the same argument that was already taking place in two other spaces, and set the other party's teeth on edge in the process. And much like The Kip, the lion's share of my feedback to JDiala has been critical in nature, and full of warning. But the longer the dispute goes on, the more sympathetic I am to his position that he is not being heard and the more I'm starting to understand why he felt he was not being engaged with in a productive fashion.
At this point, I can only re-assert, for all three of you, what I ended my ANI comments with: stop bickering over who had/has the right end of the stick with regard to BRD. It's not accomplishing anything. One side needs to give way, or someone needs to RfC this or take it to RSN or DRN or pursue any number of other dispute resolution processes. To pursue the current course that both sides have to this point is to flirt with an AE sanction, and the longer that happens, the less certain you should feel that JD is the one likely to receive it. You're not going to see eye to eye on who violated BRD first, clearly. I also doubt you are going to see a block at ANI for how JD characterized your and ManyAreasExpert's behaviour. So short-circuit this nonsense by doing what you all should have done ages ago, and bring other eyes in to resolve the content dispute. This is not rocket science: if you're that convinced that you have the right read on the sourcing issue, bolster your consensus and shut JD's argument down. SnowRise 20:58, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, but I did not try to relitigate anything, as should be clear from my comments. Did I suggest to sanction this contributor anywhere? No. Besides, that ANI thread was obviously going nowhere, and I only placed a link to discussion for the sake of order. I did not start that ANI thread or even a discussion at the user talk page. My only purpose was to explain the policy to the user because he misunderstood it. Yes, I had a few discussions with him on several talk pages, and I am familiar with the subject. But it does not disqualify me from commenting on this. Quite the opposite. As about "dispute resolution", yes, of course, but I hardly have significant disagreements with this user. The dispute resolution is currently on the initial stage, i.e. just discussing the issue on article talk pages(s). Of course another user who brought this issue on ANI might be in a state of prolonged dispute, I do not really know. There are no "three of us". Happy editing, My very best wishes (talk) 00:55, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
"My only purpose was to explain the policy to the user because he misunderstood it."
Again, having reviewed the entire dispute (article talk pages, ANI, and JD's TP included) and watched you go around and around and around on this issue, I feel absolutely confident at this point that they understand WP:BRD every bit as well as you do. It's just that they disagree with you about what the status quo version of the disputed content is, and therefore whose edit constitutes the B in BRD. This is something JD repeatedly pointed out on the article talk, and they also repeatedly emphasized (in the talk page discussion and at the ANI) that the efforts to "educate" them on BRD were the major source of frustration for them in that discussion. So I don't think you could have picked a single thing that was more likely to set them off than showing up in the middle of q discussion with another editor on their talk page in order to again "explain" BRD to them. And frankly, a lot of editors would have popped their top at that point. And please let me reiterate at this point that both of you should have dropped the discussion about who really violated WP:BRD/WP:EW long, long before that point. It was getting nothing accomplished and it was well past time for you both to move on to RfC or some other processes necessary to break the deadlock. But I honestly don't think that you could have picked a single thing to say to them at that point in time that was more certain to tick them off.
"But it does not disqualify me from commenting on this."
No, of course it didn't and I don't see anywhere where anyone has implied that you were barred from commenting. What I said was that commenting when and how you did on his talk page was ill-advised and almost certain to get exactly the response you did: inflaming matters further with no realistic chance of achieving anything positive. Nobody said or implied that commenting there constituted a brightline violation of policy. My observation is merely that it represented bad judgment on your part and demonstrated that the issues between you two were not coming unilaterally from his approach. And nothing you've said here has caused me to re-assess that impression.
"The dispute resolution is currently on the initial stage, i.e. just discussing the issue on article talk pages(s).
Well that's certainly better than continuing to fixate on who is on the right side of BRD, but given the protracted back-and-forth there already, can I recommend that you all not sleep on starting an RfC or taking the matter to RSN? Because if you haven't been able to achieve a meeting of the minds between you so far, I don't think it's likely to spontaneously happen, and my concern is the cycle of talking past eachother is going to continue without other community voices involved. Just my two cents.
"Happy editing"
To you as well. SnowRise 01:49, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Appreciation for being an intelligent human

Hello, I am a autistic man who enjoys vicariously living other people's arguments and experiences through reading various internet drama. The last year or so I've noticed that ANI and wikipedia in general can be very good sources of "human drama entertainment" or whatever you'd like to call it.

I'm rambling. The point of writing on your talk page is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Snow_Rise-20240715161200-Snow_Rise-20240715072400

This reply you made, along with many, many others that you've made, really help me think better of people. You write clearly, empathetically, and with nuance I do not see often. You have a beautiful mind and I hope you keep contributing to whatever strikes your fancy.

I know that it would make me giddy to have someone compliment me like this, but I hope you take it well. Hooples (talk) 19:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Hooples, I don't know what to say--this is one of the nicest, most flattering things anyone has ever said to me in my time on the project, or in general. And it's very endearing to me not just because it is so complimentary, but also because you observed some of the qualities that I try hardest to bring into our work with the community: reason, empathy, understanding and forbearance. It's also a very timely message for me: the recent months have represented a tough time for me, and though I've tried to make that all the more reason to practice patience and kindness, you never know for sure how well you are doing when you are exhausted and living under the shadow of doubt. Today has been an amazing day: first I received the results of a medical scan that were phenomenally more positive than expected and beyond what I dared hope for. And now, this warm and invigorating missive from a stranger, which has made me feel so appreciated and recognized. Thank you for taking the time to make one of your first edits here such an act of kindness. It's a lovely little boost of extra impetus that merges seamlessly with the thoughts of renewed possibility and purpose that are filling my home right now. If you do a fraction as much for the average person you interact with here, you will be an amazing addition to our community indeed. Please, as you transition from a passive to an active member of our endeavour, if there is anything at all I can do to help, do not hesitate to reach out. In the meantime, you have my kindest regards and sincerest gratitude. SnowRise 00:59, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Reply from Hooples

Sorry for making a new topic, the way your talk page is laid out doesn't let me reply on mobile for whatever reason.

Your reply made me happy all night while I was at work, thank you. I'm glad I can make you feel recognized. Not enough humans are. My wife says you have excellent thank-you note skills.

I have been reading about the RFC page and the whole process,I think I am going to try to participate where I can, when appropriate.

I am pretty nervous about it, however. I lurk... Extensively, and I've seen firsthand all the people who are quick to harass. I read one arbitration where an editor even called another at work after snooping out their info. I would like to avoid that if at all possible. That is just my normal nervousness though, I stay more anonymous than most.

I hope to see more of your writing if I do take that step. Hooples (talk) 18:23, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Hooples: first, my thanks to your wife for the kind observation.:) As to your on-project ambitions, I think RfC is a great way to get started in contributing 'behind the curtain' here, particularly if you sign up for the WP:Feedback request service ('FRS' for short; which allows an automated system to randomly select discussions requiring input for which you will receive bot-delivered invites to participate. With this method, you can maximize the number of discussions you get involved with where the area is generally familiar enough to you to enhance your ability to consider the issues, but also less likely to be topics that you have super-strong pre-existing notions about. This is a really great sweet spot to sit in while you try to master our content policy and learn to apply them neutrally. It also spreads the contributions out a little more evenly, so you can more often land on talk pages where an extra opinion may be sorely needed to break a deadlock, provide a third option not previously considered, or just give a new perspective. However, even you end up completely self-selecting for most of your RfC contributions, you will still be exposed to a large variety of policy and content issues and get great exposure to the consensus-making process. In my opinion, it's really one of the best ways to become a well-rounded contributor. Just don't be afraid to pass on a given discussion, or make very limited (or even noncommittal) remarks if you are not entirely sure what the right call is, especially in the early going.As to the harassment, I can understand your concerns, but my experience has been that the overwhelming majority of people you interact with will be genial and respectful. Yes, harrassment does happen from time to time, unfortunately, but if you stay calm in the face of needless antagonism, you can easily the vast majority of even what the most negative personalities can throw at you relatively unaffected. Cases of things like offline stalking are exceedingly uncommon, but I do recommend creating something of a firewall between your off-project identity and your work here: even aside from the benefits to your privacy and sense of security if those are serious concerns for you, my personal editorial philosophy is that the more you can divorce yourself from the normal demographics and group-affiliations which dominate so much of the rest of you world and our places within it, the easier it is to put yourself in a headspace of foregrounding our consensus policies and staying agnostic/neutral with regard to various content issues while doing so.Not everyone agrees and many see an enhanced value in their time in this community by disclosing much more information about themselves here, but I recommend you at least get the lay of the land here before you make a decision to reveal a lot of personal info. This is one of the largest, most highly visible and heavily archives sites on the internet, afterall, and it's exceedingly difficult to completely claw back information once you reveal it here. And there may be times that you find yourself agreeing that certain content should (or should not) be added to an article, based on a policy/consensus decision, even though you find that information personally objectionable (or valid). People outside the project might not always appreciate the nuance of such decisions.As a previous lurker, you are probably already well aware of WP:Teahouse and our WP:Help resources, but I thought I would point them out to you anyway, just in case. You might also consider lurking for a while at The Village Pump to keep abreast of new policy discussions and developments and get even more refined perspectives on issues of broad policy and consensus. And, of course, I hope it goes without saying that you are always free to stop in here and ask a question if you think I may have a helpful perspective. My user page covers the major areas of my content contributions, but in terms of community and process, I've tried to spread my efforts around a bit over my time here, and if I can help, I will. :) SnowRise 13:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

July music

story · music · places

Coming to you to say hello (from my watchlist), I read the above threads with pleasure. Thank you both for being human! - Today's story is about a photographer who took iconic pictures, especially View from Williamsburg, Brooklyn, on Manhattan, 9/11, yesterday's was a great mezzo, and on Thursday we watched a sublime ballerina. If that's not enough my talk offers chamber music from two amazing concerts, one piece by Mozart, the other by Chopin. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Main Page history/2024 July 30b had a baritone, a violinist, a composer and a Bach cantata, - almost too much, and the composer's article, Wolfgang Rihm, improved much over the last days, could still grow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – August 2024

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August music

story · music · places

Today I have three "musicians" on the Main page, one is also the topic of my story, like 22 July but with interview and the music to be played today -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

On 13 August, Bach's cantata was 300 years old, and the image one. The cantata is an extraordinary piece, using the chorale's text and famous melody more than others in the cycle. It's nice to have not only a recent death, but also this "birthday" on the Main page. And a rainbow in my places. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

New pages patrol September 2024 Backlog drive

New pages patrol | September 2024 Backlog Drive
  • On 1 September 2024, a one-month backlog drive for new pages patrol will begin.
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Feedback requests from the Feedback Request Service

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You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) | Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. | Sent at 12:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

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You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) | Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. | Sent at 02:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Rap battles

Has anyone ever taken you up on the rap battle offer? And how do you know so much about cults? Also the image on the bottom right of your userpage, Speech1.jpg, disappeared. Polygnotus (talk) 08:07, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey Polygnotus, sorry for the slow reply; it's been quite a couple of days. :) As to the rap battles: just once, so far! Regarding my knowledge of cults, I don't think I can point to any one source--though if I did, it might very well be en.Misplaced Pages RfCs and articles I became aware of through ANI. But really it's just an amalgamation I've developed from psychological research, news media, and Misplaced Pages: very little of my knowledge of how they operate is from first hand experience, despite the fact that I have from time to time lived near the epicenter of some of the larger such organizations.
And yeah, poor speech1.jpg...I went to Commons to inquire about it, and apparently a volunteer there nominated it for deletion on the presumption that it's license was invalid. Their explanation for why seemed to involve some guess work, but when it comes to Commons, I am highly inclined to defer to the judgment of the regulars, since my experience there is limited. It is a shame though, because I carefully curated those images to balance along certain criteria, and for each one to represent multiple of the areas of interest referenced in my contribution areas list, and that one was good for both phonology/linguistics in general, as well as the high importance of discussion and consensus building on project (it was just a close-up image of a woman lips as she seemed to speak something softly). Oh well: I'll find something else that suits eventually: for the moment I left the file link in to remind me to do it sooner rather than later. SnowRise 09:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

ICOC

I understand and accept the direction given over at the ICOC Talk page to focus on the content rather than behaviour, I was just galled at CL’s claim of innocence after all that he subjected myself and others to around the COI issues!

Having said that and turning to the content there have 63 edits made by TP and CL over a 4 day period, and like you mentioned it is almost impossible to keep up. At a high level they seem reasonably sourced, although heavily biased to the negative and not exclusively, but dominantly focused, on a select time period in the 1990’s. I tried to look at a few of the sources provided, the first one was a Proquest source I could not view because it was behind a paywall the second one was inserted into the article as:

“A 1999 study found that a substantial MAJORITY of former ICOC members included in the study "reached clinically significant levels of psychological distress, depression, dissociation, anxiety, and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms". Two-thirds of them had sought psychotherapy after leaving the church.(I don’t know how to find the diff of this exact edit amongst the 63)

However on going and reading the source it says this: “a substantial MINORITY of former ICOC members included in the study "reached clinically significant levels of psychological distress, depression, dissociation, anxiety, and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms". Two-thirds of them had sought psychotherapy after leaving the church.”

This is an egregious misrepresentation of a source!! I don’t want to escalate the conflict between myself and CL, but this is unacceptable! (I see another editor picked up this misrepresentation) So, in trying to find a reasonable solution moving forward, can I request a Rollback to the 10th of September and ask that each of these numerous edits goes through a proper vetting process on the Talk page to decide the proper WEIGHT and ACCURACY before they are added. This TAGTEAM editing is subverting the consensus building process by the sheer overwhelming volume of edits. Also, between the two of them they have now authored nearly 40% of the ICOC pages content. Given TP and CL’s clear dislike of the church this is not right. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 14:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi Jamie, apologies for not responding to this just yet: I have been slammed with obligations the last few days and the handful of moments I've found for the project in the last 24 hours have gone towards a few other issues, including on the ICoC talk page. Unfortunately I am off to something essential just now, but I promise I will do my best to respond in detail at some point this coming evening. SnowRise 10:00, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
👍 JamieBrown2011 (talk) 11:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Hey Jamie, let me apologize again for the delay in response. I know it must have felt like I was ignoring you, but the truth is, I have given a lot of thought to the multiple issues raised by your post, and needed to take some time to consider my response. I'm going to break this down into the component issues:
  • First, I can understand your frustration over the COI issue. Obviously from my statement at ANI and COIN, I don't think that CL and TPs take on the issue was in accordance with policy, and that's why I and others made such a strong stand on the issue. At the same time, that matter has been resolved, and as positively as could have been for you and the others accused of actionable COI because of your religious beliefs. But at the same time, I just don't think the community is likely to find that there was bad faith or abuse of process in the approach of TP or CL. There was a moment where I worried things might head in that direction, but eventually both of them took the community message to heart and have not pressed that angle further. So while I understand why you remain somewhat prejudiced in your view of them as a result of that hullabaloo, my strong advice is that holding on to it will do you no productive good.
  • Likewise, I also see some justification in your feelings that the pace of editing on the article itself could be slowed a bit, but it's once again a case where I think an argument of outright disruption is going to be hard to make. There's no speed limit, as such, on Misplaced Pages, and if there were, I think I can say with confidence that it would be quite a bit higher than 63 edits over a few days, even for lower traffic articles. Further, TP and CL have engaged in discussion where challenged. And I don't have the authority to enforce a roll-back to a specific date. Now, one could politely ask them both to slow their pace a little and voluntarily agree for major new additions or deletions to first be vetted on the talk page, as a very short-term matter. If you wish, I will ping them here and make that appeal myself. I wouldn't say it's the worst idea in the world, given there is a lot of controversy over particular facts and labels, but it's very atypical and they would be completely free to reject that request.
  • Regarding that majority/minority error: that's clearly an issue (although an honest mistake, I presume) and should be addressed asap. If you raise it on the talk page, I will support a change and even point out that this may be an indication that things are moving too fast.
  • Unfortunately, regarding TP and CL's apparent suspicion and dislike of the church, I would guess that they would both say either that a) they don't really have a distaste for it, but have grown to have an expectation that issues will arise where the members of the church are involved in the article, or b) that their personal feelings are irrelevant, so long as they are following process and policy appropriately. As to the first, the only thing that can be done at this point is to ask them to try to keep an open mind. And as for the second, they would be right. Any criticism of their approach has to be rooted in conduct and their editorial calls. They are free to edit the article regardless of whether they may have a very low impression of the church, just as you are free to edit it despite having a high enough impression of it that you are religiously associated with it. (I think you are, anyway? In any event, you don't have to say unless you want to).
  • Lastly, I want to get into some issues that I am considering tactfully suggesting on the talk page: some issues I have noted with the article since I was pinged there last week. And it may allow me to explain some things about Misplaced Pages editing and some unfortunate availability biases in sourcing that I think are making things difficult for you and other editors who want a less hard-edged approach to the one of the article:
First off, I think we need a section on the ICC in the article. While the two churches are under different leadership, it is clear that at least some sources conflate them. And indeed, because of cross-over between beliefs, practices, and presumably people who have moved between the two churches as co-branches of one lineage deriving from the Churches of Christ, its hard to say that it would be wrong if someone openly considered the two churches to be essentially entangled. That doesn't seem to be the case with what was going on with that Herald article: there it seems the author was simply unaware of the distinction between the ICoC and ICC as two assemblies of congregations. But the fact that of the matter is, there's a shared and complicated history here, and the article could do a much better job of outlining it. That info could be in its own article (WP:Notability is probably established I think) or the McKean article, but I think it probably makes most sense to have a subsection in the ICoC article. I think its possible I will be in the minority on that call though and that (for different reasons) both your camp and TP/CL's may be opposed to that solution.
There's something else I want to say here that I think may both clarify something for you and also frustrate you. And on the way to explaining the issue, I'll share some speculation on matters that I wouldn't advocate for putting in the article, because to do so would rely too heavily on WP:SYNTH. Nevertheless, it involves some context which is probably worth being aware of. So, to wit: It may very well be that the ICoC has drastically altered it's internal culture and practices from the days when it first accrued it's current representation in the reliable sources we have to work with. It's hard for me to have a very strong opinion on that subject, insofar as I had never heard of the ICoC before the editors of the ICoC article landed at ANI a few weeks back. But I will say this: it's not exactly the most paradigmatic thing for a "cult" to toss its founding central figure out on his ear because the rank and file members of the organization felt that the expansion of numbers was being prioritized over the quality of the spiritual message. So that there does make me wonder if there was a genuine reform movement within the church initiated on principle, which may have led to substantial changes in the time since. Similarly, the fact that the Herald piece seems to have possibly been discussing an ICC student group (rather than an ICoC group) makes me wonder if maybe the most problematic and attention-grabbing recruiting practices for both groups (the ICoC previously and the ICC presently) are inter-mingled with McKean's leadership. Now that's not something that I can feel confident about with my little insight into the group and it's history, and therefore way, way outside anything I can urge being included in the article. But I wanted you to know that this possibility is something I have considered from what I have learned.But here's the part you aren't going to like: even if that is actually the truth of the matter, there's a real possibility you won't get even a small fraction of that narrative into the article any time soon. Because here's the tough part: if a religious group adopts controversial and "cult-like" practices, it's only a matter of time before some WP:RS cover those activities and propensities. But if that same group effectuates even one of the most remarkable reform movements of any such group, that's just probably not going to be covered to the same extent by WP:RS. "Church adopts more conventional Christian qualities with regard to proselytizing" is not a headline that is going to be as tempting to news organizations as "Christian youth group targets vulnerable juveniles on college campuses, imposes strict controls on lifestyle and relationships". Likewise, sociologists and religious and "cult" "experts" aren't going to be as interested in a movement becoming more mainstream. So the simple fact of the matter is, once a religious movement has a certain reputation for questionable recruiting practices or atypical and onerous control of the behaviour of their faithful, that can reputation can be hard to shake thereafter. In general, and with particular relevance to how we construct Misplaced Pages articles. Because if there was a successful reform movement, but it wasn't well covered in RS...not only are you going to have a hard time convincing many of the editors working on that article (and I must admit, our new religious movement articles do tend to attract sometimes over-zealous editors who over-correct in trying to keep out too much influence from the members of the groups themselves), but even if you do convince them, everyone's hands may be tied by the lack of WP:verification of a change in the groups character.
So, I know you can't be jumping for joy about that last bit in particular, but I wanted to be on the level with you about the uphill task you are facing here, and why you're probably going to have to pick your battles here. All of that said (and I know it's a mouthful, but after your wait I figured you deserved a fulsome response), don't give up on the process. I do think that there are still issues with the tone of the article that can be improved upon. And I'm hopeful that the recent pinging of a number of veteran editors to the talk page may bear fruit in that regard. I'm very familiar with almost every name that was included in that list, and they are all old and steady hands, policy wise and I think their influence can be expected to slowly change the article, at least a bit. And I'm not saying that TP and CL are acting in bad faith or disruptively, but they are kind of at one extreme with regard to how to present the ICoC and I think they will probably have to accede to some changes in the tone of the article that you will probably appreciate. So let's give that process a little time to work itself through. Thanks for your patience in waiting for a response and your tenacity in reading through it. ;) I'm here for further discussion if you wish. Just bear with me on responses, because I have a lot going on, off-project. SnowRise 04:51, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
SnowRise, thank you for your well reasoned response. It was worth the wait.
I find myself agreeing with everything you say and understand your thoughts on each point. I am also very happy with all the new editors being drawn to the page as it can only bring a more balanced perspective.
I am wanting to believe that CL’s inversion of “minority“ to “majority” was an honest mistake, but I am struggling to trust that. After that flood of edits following the failed ANI attempt, we now have a total of 68 words in the article that are highly negative. The word “cult” alone is used 19 times. 3x’s in the LEAD. After this was highlighted in the recent Rfc, CL said “yes the lead needs a complete rewrite”, yet he is the primary author of that section. That type of faux innocence is simply staggering!!
Couple that to the feeling that myself, and no doubt other editors have felt, of being intimidated, (dragged before the COIN 3x’s, then the ANI, and one new editor being outright banned https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Editaddict]  for unknowingly crossing the 3RR) and one has the sense that Misplaced Pages is condoning an Admin who uses WP:INTIMIDATION and WP:TAGTEAM tactics to make sure his POV is pushed through. (Even ignoring the WP:WIKIHOUNDING by his sidekick over at my talk page).
Moving on to the content related things. I appreciate you are busy and am very grateful at the time you have given already, but if you could take a look at Talk:International Churches of Christ#NPOV  and give some direction as how to bring more balance to the page.  (I have not been able to look at the progress in the last few days, as I am traveling and away from any kind of reliable internet connectivity) but there must be a way to address the WP:UNDUE weight given to the criticism.
Finally, you are 100% correct that one challenge we are facing is newspapers don’t sell if the stories are ‘run of the mill’, sensationalism sells. And there are people that make a good living capitalizing on peoples fears . So the best source I have been able to find on the reforms is this https://christianchronicle.org/revisiting-the-boston-movement-icoc-growing-again-after-crisis/
Anyway, thanks for helping restore my faith in Misplaced Pages, the community and its processes. . JamieBrown2011 (talk) 02:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
JamieBrown2011 I'm very gratified if I have played some roll in convincing you that you are welcome in our community, irrespective of what initially brings you here. Since first commenting at ANI and thereafter being invited to provide further input on the talk page, I've tried to be equanimious in my observations, and have indeed found myself in turns agreeing more with one side or the other on the cluster of disputes. For what it is worth, I still do not think CL would knowingly invert the statement of a source like that. I also won't try to convince you that they and TP are the most absolutely dispassionate and neutrally-postured of editors on the subject matter, because not even I believe that. Then again, neither are you, my friend--though I say this with an amiable disposition, that I hope will come through. :) Lest I be misunderstood, let me say that I think both editors are operating in good faith, and that there is no doubt in my mind that their activities on the article in question are not only a net positive, but were probably initially a necessity to keep the article transparent about certain issues relating to the subject of this union of churches. But as was very plainly demonstrated on a number of ANI discussions last month (as well as some discussions at Village Pump and FTN that I observed but did not participate in), I think there is a growing issue of burn-out among editors who work assiduously in areas where they have to confront organized efforts at sanitizing articles about organizations who bring their own members into Misplaced Pages's editorial process. That and a number of personalities who should just not be involved in such areas in the first place because their approach is more disruptive than helpful. Let me be clear that I don't think TP or CL belong to the later group, but they may well belong to the former, and signs of having spent too long in the trenches in that area can involve an unnecessary level of WP:BITE with newcomers, especially those perceived to be WP:SPAs, and a lack of patience with the more time-consuming or repetitive elements of the consensus process. Nevertheless, while I and others considered the COI effort a bridge too far, and have had reservations on their reading of some of the more narrow content issues, I do believe the article is better for their presence. It's also better for your presence and Meta Voyager's, even if there has been an expected learning curve for you.Indeed, I'll go a step farther: while the contest of wills should never have gotten to where it was at the time of the ANI thread, and there were lamentable and hard to defend interpretations of policy on both sides, I think the article is better off (specifically more detailed and clear for a reader) for the temporary tension between the two sides. It's true that additional perspectives from experienced editors became necessary to synthesize the very disparate views on the content together, but I do think things are headed in the right direction now. And though I would not hold your breath for an apology over the COI thing, I would suspect that CL and TP have enough perspective to feel the same way and think the article has reached its best state since it hit its maximal cooks in the kitchen over recent weeks. I even hold out some hope that the two camps will eventually reconcile over a grudging respect for what each has brought to the table--or at least a less jaundiced eye for how good faith the other side's ultimate motivations are. As to the content issues, I will continue to provide an occasional word here and there, but you'll have to forgive me if they aren't as frequent or vociferous as with my initial engagement: off-project woes and obligations have my life very disordered and my time very strained. But I'll do what I can. Regardless, wishing you the very best moving forward on the project, and hope that we can entice you into contributing in other areas as well. SnowRise 23:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Thanks @Snow Rise, I will continue in good faith and hope to bring valuable insight to the project. BTW, is there anything you can do about the very harsh banning I mentioned above? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 15:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Hi, @Snow Rise sorry to bother you for further advice. You have been a helpful voice in these matters in the past where I have lacked Misplaced Pages experience and sometimes perspective. I recently tried to place a few {{POV}} tags on the ICOC page to reflect the disputes currently happening over at the Talk page over the LEAD and the perceived lack of NPOV in the body of the page. One editor engaged in what could almost be described as edit warring. (reverting the tags 3 times in a 24 hour period). Then he took it to a NPOV noticeboard where I was accused of "Drive By" tagging! Honestly unbelievable. Only one other editor weighed in on the ongoing RFC on the LEDE. No commentary on the ongoing disputes around #NPOV on the talk page. Now, the policies seem clear about placing tags:
Some tags, such as {{POV}}, often merely indicate the existence of one editor's concern, without taking a stand whether the article complies with Misplaced Pages policies. It is important to remember that the POV dispute tag does not mean that an article actually violates NPOV. It simply means that there is a current discussion about whether the article complies with the neutral point of view policy. In any NPOV dispute, there will usually be some people who think the article complies with NPOV, and some who disagree. In general, you should not remove the POV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV. Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved or—according to the rules for this specific template—when the discussion has stopped for a significant length of time.
Yet, I am told by TP and CL that I have to get "consensus for the Tags"?? The whole point of the tag is that there is NOT consensus!!! So I find once again, the impression of a refusal to allow policy to be applied when it disagrees with certain senior editors POV. I was under the impression that policy guides us all as editors. I certainly don't want to resort to edit warring, on what seems clear direction from the policies, so that leaves me turning to more experienced editors for advice. Please help? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Hi Jamie. So, my advice is to just let this the tag discussion go. Honestly, I see no flaw in your analysis of the relevant guideline language or its application, and more than a little to criticize in how TP and CL are interpreting it on the article talk page, but it's not a fight worth having, imo. Other editors might feel otherwise, but my observation of the impact of tags and of the necessity and value of having contests of will over them, is that they are one of the most massive wastes of time and demonstration of lack of perspective that you are going to find on the project. I don't think the average reader is heavily swayed by their presence (or really even knows what to make of them in the majority of cases), and the weight that your typical experienced editor gives them in informing their own analysis of content is, if anything, even more trivial.
Right now the talk page is benefiting from the engagement of excellent editors like North8000 and Valereee, who, aside from being very experienced, command a lot of respect in the community. I would avail yourself of the window you have in their engagement in mediating a reasonable path between the positions of the two camps of previously involved editors. The more you can form a consensus on now, the less likely are flare-ups of disruption again once they commit they are forced to commit their energies elsewhere. So fighting over the tags is not, imo, worth your energy or the distraction. I know that's probably not the sort of advice you were hoping for, but it's my chief recommendation, especially as I don't have the time to weigh in there again myself right now (I have very limited free time for the project at present and there are some major community issues right now that I have to utilize that time to follow. Best of luck too you, as always. SnowRise 21:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
OK, thanks. As always I appreciate you taking the time to respond. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment

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If any theropods self-harm, it's on you

Remember WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1163#Resumption_of_incivility_by_EEng_and_suggestion_of_self-harm. You recent comment at ANI could be interpreted as encouraging theropods to suicidally ideate. EEng 23:56, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Good. They have been getting a free ride for far too long. You eat one lawyer in a Spielberg movie and suddenly you're the golden child. But I'm on to them: they are totally cold blooded and I'm pretty sure they see you even when you're not moving, so add gaslighting into the mix too. SnowRise 00:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
As Jay Leno pointed out, that scene was totally unbelievable. A dinosaur would never eat a lawyer -- too greasy. EEng 00:43, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
I mean it's a reliable joke to have that guy eaten (if a bit of a case of low-hanging fruit). But also...I think that guy is the only person in the entire movie who said a single thing that made any kind of sense? Because, speaking of un-aliving one's self, no one on that island seems to have had a minimum level of competency for keeping themselves (or their grandchildren) from being eaten. At least the lawyer recognized the liabilities. SnowRise 01:16, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks

Thank you for the constructive comments regarding the COI and SPA accusations, and sorry if my contribution to the discussions added to the 'hyperbolic' character of the argument. The Landmark article had been mostly peaceful and stable since the Arbcom case in 2014 (which largely boomeranged onto the detractor who proposed the arbitration) until about a year ago, when all the old disputes re-surfaced. DaveApter (talk) 11:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello DaveApter: my apologies, I did not mean to ignore you: my life has been a disordered mess for a number of reasons over recent weeks, and a response to you got lost in the mix. To address your concern...well, I will be honest that I didn't think your response 100% helpful, but neither was it the only or the worst of the broadsides that was exchanged. I just hope that the thread having been auto-archived with little engagement from un-involved community members other than myself has highlighted the fact that both sides are going to have to find a way to work through the content issues together. At present (or at least, last I saw of the evidence presented at ANI) no one is really due for community sanction or restraint, and we should hope that it stays that way. Obviously, considering the previous involvement of ArbCom, that's not a given, but I also see no reason things have to get that out of hand again. I get that there is a roving battle going on right now over all things purportedly "cult" oriented; we had three simultaneous discussions going at ANI just a few weeks ago relating to three separate organizations, and in each of those cases (all of which fizzled without sanction) the conduct of the parties that felt they were pushing back against COI editing was, (I felt anyway) at least as problematic as that on the side they were opposing. Do me a favour though, and don't go out of your way to quote me on that, since I have exhausted the amount of engagement I want to have with the topic for the immediate future, especially given how limited and blip-like my time for the project is just now. Point is, I understand some of your frustrations (as indeed, I also understand the frustrations of those who have been too long in the trenches combating a certain type of SPA editing). But my advice to editors who find themselves partisans on either side would be the same: my recommendation is to fight fire with water. Use the dispute resolution processes and invite broader community input to break deadlocks--RfC would seem especially germane in this case, so long as you limit its use to the major points of contention over serious content issues. You might not win on every point, but you'll reduce the disruption of two highly entrenched groups lobbing mortars from their respective unmoving positions. Great googly moogly...too much WWII imagery for me the last week. Anyhow, best of luck to you! SnowRise 21:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for the thoughtful and extensive comments, and apology accepted. DaveApter (talk) 13:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment

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Am I missing the joke?

Why does it say "USER TALK:Snow Rise" in all caps at the top? Viriditas (talk) 23:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey Vir! No joke--just a slight little jeuje of style for the top of the page, no doubt added years ago when I was exploring the invocation of html inside wiki markup, and adding colour to my user and talk pages as I went along in that process. Anyhow, what brings you my way in the first place, il mio amico? SnowRise 22:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I saw your longform comments on ANI and decided to come over here and harass you again about science fiction. Just watched Edge of Tomorrow (2014) for the fourth time, and it's amazing how well it holds up. One thing about watching a film like this multiple times over many years is how much you miss and forget. For example, with my fourth viewing, the thing that stands out most to me now is how the highest echelons of the military couldn't figure out how to end the war with the aliens because they refused to consider the non-linear ramifications of the offensive attack needed as it didn't fit within their military paradigm. I never really paid attention to that subplot before, and there's a lot of neat ideas that come out of it. Meanwhile, I'm also trying to finish up Black Mirror. I can't figure out why the US is completely incapable of making great shows like this. It's like the British have a monopoly on good drama. Explain it to me like I'm five. Viriditas (talk) 23:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Hey Vir, hang tight; haven't forgotten you--just that my free time this week can be measured in scant minutes! SnowRise 16:30, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Just shooting the breeze; no hurry, no rush. Viriditas (talk) 23:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

RFCs by the numbers

As a regular participant in RFCs, you might be interested in Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment#RFC statistics. The number of RFCs has declined significantly since 2020. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:13, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the heads up on the discussion, and the research, WhatamIdoing; this is a topic I've been having some concerns, as part of a broader complex of issues with our processes seeming to become more opaque and less accessible, due to cultural shifts in the community and the promulgation of some notions that I would argue are ill-informed and counter-intuitive to serving the needs of the project. So your providing some data, however preliminary and subject to some certainties, and initiating that discussion is appreciated by at least one community member. :) That said, my time is extremely strained right now, so my engagement will probably come in fits and spurts. SnowRise 16:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
I'd be happy to discover that the RFC page seemed to have wandered on to your watchlist. We've got a small group of regulars, and they're all nicer than I am, so I think you'd like the discussions. There is no urgency, so you can ignore the page for months and still be welcome when you come back. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

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Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment

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RfC

I took your advice and posted an RfC at talk:Landmark Worldwide. I was immediately accused of bad faith for posting it! Unfortunately very few uninvolved editors have joined in, and the discussion has had plenty of aspersions, sophistry and rhetorical flourishes. But perhaps some progress may be made. DaveApter (talk) 20:34, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

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Invitation to participate in a research

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The Wikimedia Foundation is conducting a survey of Wikipedians to better understand what draws administrators to contribute to Misplaced Pages, and what affects administrator retention. We will use this research to improve experiences for Wikipedians, and address common problems and needs. We have identified you as a good candidate for this research, and would greatly appreciate your participation in this anonymous survey.

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Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment

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Feedback request: Maths, science, and technology request for comment

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I took your advice

Hi Snow Rise, I took your advice and posted another RfC at Landmark Worldwide with a more specific focus, but unfortunately it hasn't attracted much interest beyond the editors who have already demonstrated polarised positions. A recent edit to the article which seemed to me to give a more balanced summary of the cited sources was instantly reverted twice without explanation. Do you have any suggestions? DaveApter (talk) 13:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Dave, sorry for the slow reply: my attention and time is being pulled in a million directions right now. I did read the RfC through a couple days ago when you first messaged and just reviewed it again, and I do have some semi-detailed thoughts that I will try to share as soon as I can find the time (preview: my feelings land somewhere between the two "sides" on the weight issue). But in more direct response to your request for advice, my main suggestion is just to be patient: RfC/FRS volunteer time seems to be especially low just now, so you may have to wait a while for decent engagement. And remember that you can always relist the RfC after 30 days of there hasn't been enough participating to help move the needle. I'll try to pitch my perspective in as soon as I can. Best wishes until then. SnowRise 22:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Thank you. Whenever it fits in for you. I am genuinely keen to have opinions from editors without prior prejudices on the topic, based on Misplaced Pages policies and accurate analysis of what the sources actually say. DaveApter (talk) 20:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

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Feedback request: Maths, science, and technology request for comment

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Dominating discussion

I say this as someone who often agrees with you, and finds that your arguments and rhetoric are generally sound: I think your persistence in utterly dominating every other participant with mountains of text, taking up vast quantities of visual space on the page and separating threads into "everyone else" and "Snow Rise" does a disservice to your position (which makes me sigh especially when I agree with the point buried in there). Do with this what you will. — Rhododendrites \\ 02:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate these observations in the spirit they were intended Rhodo. To be perfectly honest, I had hoped that my comments earlier in the week would be the extent of my involvement in the discussion. Only the perception of some institutional paralysis as the clock ticked down on the WMFs actions spurred me to comment further at all, let alone with such volume. That and, perhaps even more so, the new disclosures (which seem to conflict with the few assurances we have yet gotten from the WMF) from one of the volunteers who stands to have their life turned upside down reaching out to us directly.
Let me assure you, I don't much relish this position. Discussions of this nature, pitting elements of our movement against one-another, are not within the scope of what I consider to be enjoyable and welcome engagement. In fact, I take dim view of those who seem to relish regular involvement in such topics. But I've perceived this to be a once in a wiki-lifetime, buck stops here situation: there are things needing saying, with major implications to the future of the movement and safety of this community's members, that weren't being said. And I found myself unprepared to leave them unsaid. But I do agree I've said my piece and then some at this point. Eek's frankly confusing actions and comments necessitated more than I'd hoped to say today, and I have one more direct question from TBUA that I will have to respond to briefly, but other than that and any further responses to comments directly specifically at me, I intend to to exert as light a touch as possible over the remaining discussion. SnowRise 03:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Dude, Trump has vowed to be a dictator from day one. If you don’t think he’s going after Misplaced Pages, then you aren’t paying attention. Viriditas (talk) 04:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Hey Vir. I'm afraid I'm not following. For all I know you may very well be correct that the American alt-right will in some way come into direct conflict with the free information movement, but I'm not sure of the relevance to what Rhododendrites and I were discussing? SnowRise 04:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
No relevance, other than without a personal information protection law, you're fighting a losing battle. Trump originally won in 2016 because he got his hands on the Facebook behavioral data, the personal information of millions of users. You would think there would be some kind of public outcry and federal law written, but nope. That's how corporate America makes money, that's how Silicon Valley survives, and it's how conservatives win elections, by using our personal information against us. And you're deeply naive if you don't think key people working for the relevant orgs don't already have positions of authority within Wikimedia and have access to our personal information. I first became aware of this issue in 1993, when a police detective in San Francisco illegally collected the personal information of all of the activists working on political issues in the city and distributed it to an unknown and unnamed party. It was briefly covered by the mainstream media for a day or two. Good luck to you. Viriditas (talk) 05:07, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

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Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment

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A barnstar for you!

The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
I rarely am as captivated by an abundance of clear-conscience and willingness to take a stand as I have been by your strong and strident communications over the ANI open letter and blackout discussion. Thank you for leading in a time when we need leaders. Ocaasi 20:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
Thank you Ocaasi: that support means a great deal to me. I was hesitant to press for action both times we ultimately escalated the community response: both the open letter and the notion of a protest action. Like many on the other side of the blackout discussion, I have a strong respect for the role and remit of the WMF in this situation, and it is only the immensely alarming circumstances and indications we are dealing with that could leverage me into wanting to be near the center of such extraordinary proposals. But the combination of potential grave risk for those few individual editors, combined with the massive longterm implications for the viability of the project have had an immense impact on my position. world), but that's just not good enough in this situation.
That and another somewhat more selfish impulse: I don't think that I can, in good conscience, stay with project if this is the shape of things to come. If the community does not do everything in its power to protect these editors who did nothing but keep faith with the traditional compact between this project and its volunteers, and the WMF does compromise their well-being in the way we fear they are about to, I think I will have to part ways with the project, indefinitely. And that thought has filled me with a profound sense of sorrow that has animated my leaning towards strong action even further.
So you very much have my thanks also for trying to avert the feared outcome: yours are among a number of cogent and principled statements and positions that it has been a pleasure to read, even among the heavy and wearying circumstances. I do think the blackout was the right call, and I'm distressed that one editor was able to tank it--even be that person our first citizen, after a fashion. For now, I guess all we can do is hope for the best, difficult as that may be. That has been a theme for this year, when i think about it--so perhaps not surprising that we head into the final weeks as we do. SnowRise 21:02, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

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WMF, courts, privacy

I'm sure my RfC input wasn't what you were hoping for. To address this in particular: if the only outcome here is that more people become aware that Misplaced Pages's articles are being curated and censored by SLAPP suits in a foreign (or for Indians, there own domestic) court, that alone is a desirable end – I definitely agree with the sentiment as a general matter, but just didn't think a reader-facting "web blackout" move was a good vehicle for that. For reasons I think I covered pretty well in a generalized way. I will elaborate that the entire idea reminded me strongly of a situation in which someone I worked with for a long time, someone prestigious within the community at issue and highly important to our mutual employer, got incensed with a decision by that employer and engaged in something of a public threat display, and was instantly canned, no questions asked, as if just some temp receptionist. The entire environment changednearly overnight, with vastly increased bureaucracy and public-messaging gatekeeping, a sharp division between the board and the staff, bringing in of "administrative types" in executive positions over a surprisingly short span, then a bunch of staff turn-over, which I ultimately didn't survive either. That entity continues to this day, but is not the same, and operates in more of a corporate way, protecting its self-preservational interests, while focused far less on its original goals, on the things that made it worthwhile and effective. So, I'm extremely wary of triggering something along the lines of a metaphorical "autoimmune response" in an organization of this scope. I've seen how that can turn out. WMF is already poorly poised to handle something like that sensibly; I've written at some length before about how it is dominated at the board and executive level by tech-industry corporate types who treat this like a software company delivering products and services to a target market, instead of like a public-interest NGO providing an invaluable need to the world. So, let's not give an excuse to go more the former direction.

As for getting WMF to do the right thing and to continue having a spine: A cross-project "unionization" of sorts, of a bunch-ass of editors concerned about WMF caving to governmental demands for personally identifiable information, might do the trick, especially if a bunch of them/us write about the matter for external publications.

What I especially didn't like about this blackout idea was disrupting the site for everyday users who have no idea of the internal "politics" of this project and the foundation behind it, and would could not possibly be brought up to speed on such matters without a great deal of effort (assuming they were even interested, which for most is probably unlikely). There's a baby-and-bathwater issue at play here, and a serious chance of backfire. Not just in the "WMF turns internally controlling" sense that got my hackles up, but possibly external pressure from the reading public, along "WMF should not let various editor-users take it hostage like that again". We already have trouble convincing the world that we're presenting neutral content, and that would only get harder if the site itself were hijacked by an internal faction to broadcast something that was sort of a mixture of a labor-relations struggle and a pro-liberalism, anti-government message (even if a large swath of our readership, and certainly our editorial base, can be expected to align with the message).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

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Happy Holidays

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2025!

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