Misplaced Pages

Talk:DonorsTrust: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 01:07, 26 August 2015 editSafehaven86 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users21,260 edits →Characterizations as "dark money ATM" of "conservative movement" and "climate denial" in multiple reliable sources← Previous edit Latest revision as of 21:17, 17 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,294,330 editsm Archiving 3 discussion(s) to Talk:DonorsTrust/Archive 2) (bot 
(71 intermediate revisions by 27 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Discretionary sanctions|cc|brief}} {{Contentious topics/talk notice|cc|brief}}
{{Talk header}} {{Talk header}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|1=
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject Organizations|class=start|importance=low}} {{WikiProject Organizations|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Conservatism|class=start|importance=mid}} {{WikiProject Conservatism|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject United States|class=start|importance=mid}} {{WikiProject United States|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Environment|class=C|importance=mid|climate change=yes}} {{WikiProject Environment|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Climate change|importance=mid}}
}} }}
{{Auto archiving notice|bot=MiszaBot I|age=3 |units=months }}
{{User:MiszaBot/config {{User:MiszaBot/config
| algo = old(91d) | algo = old(30d)
| archive = Talk:Donors Trust/Archive %(counter)d | archive = Talk:DonorsTrust/Archive %(counter)d
| counter = 1 | counter = 2
| maxarchivesize = 150K | maxarchivesize = 60K
| archiveheader = {{Aan}} | archiveheader = {{Aan}}
| minthreadstoarchive = 1 | minthreadstoarchive = 1
| minthreadsleft = 4 | minthreadsleft = 1
}} }}


== RfC: Does DonorsTrust "conceal" or "offer anonymity"? ==
== Synth tag ==
<div class="boilerplate archived" style="background-color: #EDEAFF; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">{{Quote box
| title =
| title_bg = #C3C3C3
| title_fnt = #000
| quote = The consensus is to use the alternate wording proposed by Marquardtika: "As a ], Donors Trust is not legally required to disclose its donors, and most of its donors remain anonymous."<p>] (]) 05:28, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
| width = 30%|halign=left}}
:''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top-->
----


Looking at the section above; there's a debate about whether DonorsTrust "offers anonymity" to people, or basically "conceals identities".
What synth is left that justifies this tag?] (]) 16:49, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
:Removed the Synth tag. Sems like there was plenty of time to respond.] (]) 21:22, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


Which one of these is the most ] wording?
== Some more sources ==


'''Current wording''' - "''Like all donor-advised funds, Donors Trust can offer anonymity to its clients who do not wish to make their donations public''"
As best as I know, DONORS (Trust/Capital Fund) was first analyzed/publicized in detail February 2012 in , specifically pp.65-68.


'''Proposed wording''' - "''Donors Trust conceals the identity of political donors who do not wish to make their donations public.''"
That was later expanded in , whose had more detail, pp.47-62, 68-76.


If you have an alternate wording proposal, let us know!
Of course, these are blogs, so not RS, but they cite many RS sources on interesting topics, including the interlocking directorates with Philanthropy Roundtable and the set of family foundations and think tanks involved. It is well worth understanding who else is involved besides Whitney Ball.
12:56, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
----


*'''Proposed wording''' - As nom; there are a slew of sources that call Donors Trust a "dark money" organization (see , , ). Saying a dark money organization "offers anonymity" to people is clearly euphemistic. Dark money organizations exist to conceal peoples identities. ] (]) 13:20, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
Anyway, if people want to add more detail to this page, read those pages of the 2nd PDF and for anything interesting, look at the underlying sources for ones that might be Misplaced Pages-usable. ] (]) 22:25, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
*'''Neither.''' To be clear, the organization both "offers anonymity" and "conceals identities." These are just two different ways to describe the same thing. The first is from the perspective of the organization ] to prospective clients, the second is from the perspective of an inquisitive outsider. We should take neither perspective. There are a number of ways to say the same thing without taking sides. For instance, we could say that DT "keeps its client list secret" or "does not disclose its clients' identities." ] <small>(])</small> 17:27, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
:So view the unreliable source for possible reliable sources? Somehow in doing so avoid the original research by you.] (]) 23:24, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
*'''Alternate wording:''' "As a ], Donors Trust is not legally required to disclose its donors, and most of its donors remain anonymous."<ref>{{cite news |last1=Kroll |first1=Andy |title=Exposed: The Dark-Money ATM of the Conservative Movement |url=https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/donors-trust-donor-capital-fund-dark-money-koch-bradley-devos/ |accessdate=2 April 2019 |publisher=Mother Jones |date=February 5, 2013}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Callahan |first1=David |title=Inside DonorsTrust: What This Mission-Driven DAF Offers Philanthropists on the Right |url=https://www.insidephilanthropy.com/home/2016/3/3/inside-donorstrust-what-this-mission-driven-daf-offers-phila.html |accessdate=2 April 2019 |publisher=Inside Philanthropy |date=August 23, 2017}}</ref> <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:35, 2 April 2019 (UTC)</small>
*'''Neither''' - (randomly invited by a bot) This is a charged topic and neutrality here is challenging. Avoid words that ascribe motive and intent such as "conceal" or even "wish." I think ] has the right idea. ] (]) 14:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


{{ref talk}}
== Large Bold edit ==


The proposed addition is poorly conceived and inadequately refenced. ] (]) 05:42, 19 August 2015 (UTC) *'''Neither''' per others though nos sure about wording. ] (]) 18:33, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
*the Alternate Wording suggested just above by {{U| Marquardtika}} seems a good choice, tho just the insidephilanthropy link is sufficient--the MJ one has a polemical title. ''']''' (]) 19:34, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

* '''Neither''' Alternate Wording suggested above by {{U| Marquardtika}} seems an appropriate neutral wording. ] (]) 16:35, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
== Characterizations as "dark money ATM" of "conservative movement" and "climate denial" in multiple reliable sources ==
*'''Neither''' support {{u|Marquardtika}}'s wording instead --] (]) 20:16, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

*'''Neither''' - (randomly invited by a bot) - I support the proposed wording by {{u|Marquardtika}}. If all ]s do not disclose their donors, than it seems that this is being slightly redundant, (and to say "offer anonymity" would be inaccurate) though I support redundancy since it would help someone who isn't familiar with Donor-advised funds learn that this is one (standard?) feature of them. (I also liked the InsidePhilanthropy source as neutrally explaining that both liberals and conservatives use these types of funds.)---''']]''' 22:39, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Proposed content addition to the history section, drawn largely from sources already in the article:
===Threaded discussion===

{{reply to|Marquardtika|DGG}} - So here's the problem I have with the "not legally required to" language. It makes it sound as though DT's hiding client's identities is incidental. Hiding its clients isn't incidental, it's DT's raison d'etre. Your wording is akin to saying "A ski mask doesn't have to reveal a bank robber's face. Usually a ski mask keeps robbers' faces hidden"........ That wording makes it sound as though the purpose of the mask is something other than concealment. ] (]) 01:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
<blockquote>''Mother Jones'' called Donors Trust "a dark-money ATM funding the conservative movement,"<ref name=MotherJones20130205>{{cite news |title=Exposed: The Dark-Money ATM of the Conservative Movement |url=http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/donors-trust-donor-capital-fund-dark-money-koch-bradley-devos |first=Andy |last=Kroll |date=February 5, 2013 |accessdate=February 20, 2015 |journal=] |quote=...Donors Trust has mostly avoided any real scrutiny. It is the '''dark-money ATM of the right'''.}}</ref><ref name=MotherJones20130211>{{cite news |title=Exclusive: Donors Trust, The Right's Dark-Money ATM, Paid Out $30 Million in 2011 |url=http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/02/donors-trust-2011-dark-money-heritage-cato-unions |first=Andy |last=Kroll |date=February 11, 2013 |accessdate=March 5, 2015 |journal=] |quote=...an obscure yet powerful group called Donors Trust, '''a dark-money ATM funding the conservative movement''' with hundreds of millions of dollars in mostly anonymous money}}</ref> referring to ], that is, funds given to nonprofit organizations that can receive unlimited donations and are not required to disclose their donors,<ref name=CRP-PN>{{cite web |year=2015 |title=Political Nonprofits |url=https://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/nonprof_summ.php |website=opensecrets.org |publisher=] |accessdate=March 10, 2015}}</ref> and referring metaphorically to ]s (ATMs), and was quoted by '']'',<ref>{{cite news |title=Secretive donors gave US climate denial groups $125m over three years |url=http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jun/09/secretive-donors-gave-us-climate-denial-groups-125m-over-three-years |newspaper=] |accessdate= 2015-06-11 |first1=Suzanne |last1=Goldenberg |authorlink1=Suzanne Goldenberg |first2=Helena |last2=Bengtsson |date=June 9, 2015 |quote=The anonymous cash flow came from two secretive organisations – the Donors Trust and Donors Capital Fund – that have been called '''the “Dark Money ATM” of the conservative movement'''.}}</ref> ],<ref>{{cite news |date=October 23, 2013 |title=Defying Koch cash and D.C. gridlock, airport town will vote on a $15 minimum wage |first=Josh |last=Eidelson |accessdate=August 19, 2015 |url=http://www.salon.com/2013/10/23/defying_koch_cash_and_d_c_gridlock_airport_town_will_vote_on_a_15_minimum_wage/ |quote=Federal filings show donations from Donors Trust — a group supported by Charles and David Koch that Mother Jones’ Andrew Kroll called the “'''dark-money ATM of the conservative movement'''”...}}</ref> the '']'',<ref name=national>{{cite news |last1=Zeiser |first1=Bill |title=Dark Money |url=http://www.nationalreview.com/article/388705/dark-money-bill-zeiser?splash=|accessdate=February 7, 2015 |journal=] |date=September 24, 2014 |quote=Last year, Mother Jones called DonorsTrust “'''the Dark Money ATM of the Conservative Movement'''"...}}</ref> the '']'',<ref name = "businessinsider1">{{cite news |title=Inside The Secretive Dark-Money Organization That's Keeping The Lights On For Conservative Groups |first=Walter |last=Hickey |url=http://www.businessinsider.com/donors-trust-capital-fund-conservative-dark-money-2013-2 |newspaper=] |date=February 12, 2013 |accessdate=14 February 2013 |quote=Described by Mother Jones' Andy Kroll as "'''the dark money ATM of the right'''," Donors Trust and sister group Donors Capital Fund have fueled the conservative movement by serving as middlemen between conservative donors with a desire for secrecy and groups in need of operating revenue.}}</ref> '']'',<ref>{{cite news |last1=Zeiser |first1=Bill |title=Is The “Dark-Money” Apocalypse Upon Us? |magazine=] |url=http://spectator.org/blog/60484/dark-money-apocalypse-upon-us |date=September 24, 2014 |accessdate=August 19, 2015 |quote=Kroll wrote a piece early last year branding DonorsTrust, a conservative-leaning donor advised fund, as '''the "Dark Money ATM of the Conservative Movement'''."}}</ref> the '']'',<ref>{{cite web |title=The One Percenters: How A Handful Of California Power Brokers Work To Further Inequality |first=Bill |last=Raden |date=February 2, 2015 |accessdate=March 15, 2015 |url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/19/california-one-percent_n_6714666.html |work=] |quote=Dubbed “'''the dark money ATM of the conservative movement''',” DT (and its sister trust, Donors Capital Fund), is a “donor advised fund” that offers its wealthy libertarian patrons both anonymity and guarantees of ideological purity by funding assaults on labor unions, climate scientists, public schools and economic regulations of all stripes.}}</ref> '']'',<ref name=dunbar>{{cite news |title=Donors Trust: Little-Known Group Helps Wealthy Backers Fund Right-Wing Agenda in Secret |url=http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/19/donors_trust_little_known_group_helps |first=Amy |last=Goodman |authorlink=Amy Goodman |date=February 19, 2013 |accessdate=March 15, 2015 |work=] |quote=The most detailed accounting to date shows Donors Trust funds a wish list of right-wing causes, prompting Mother Jones magazine to label it "'''the dark-money ATM of the right'''."}}</ref> and '']''.<ref name=moyers>{{cite news |title=Donors Trust: The ATM for Climate Denial |date=February 21, 2013 |first=Theresa |last=Riley |work=] |publisher=Public Affairs Television |accessdate=June 9, 2015 |url=http://billmoyers.com/2013/02/21/donors-trust-the-atm-for-climate-denial/ |quote=According to Mother Jones and The Guardian newspaper, over the past decade, a little-known group called Donors Trust has funneled hundreds of millions of dollars from wealthy contributors to a host of right-wing organizations, advocacy groups and think tanks. MJ‘s Andy Kroll dubs it the “'''dark-money ATM of the right'''” because of all the conservative campaigns the group had bankrolled.}}</ref> '']'' and '']'' called Donors Trust "the ATM for climate denial."<ref name=moyers/><ref name=democracynow>{{cite news |title=The ATM for Climate Denial: Secretive Donors Trust Funds Vast Network of Global Warming Skeptics |date=February 19, 2013 |url=http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/19/the_atm_for_climate_denial_secretive |accessdate=March 9, 2015 |authorlink=Amy Goodman |first=Amy |last=Goodman |work=] |quote=While the secretive Donors Trust has given millions to a variety of right-wing causes, denying climate change appears to be its top priority.}}</ref></blockquote>{{Reflist-talk}}Note: some references are already cited in the article; '']'', ], '']'', ], and '']'' are proposed additional references. ] (]) 06:27, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
:::DT is not the only such fund, and, while there are reasons for using such a fund other than anonymity, it is obvious that people who want to remain anonymous will use such a fund. We can make no explicit judgments on ''why'' they want to remain anonymous. The rest of the article gives enough information for readers to understand. NPOC means we don't draw conclusions. ''']''' (]) 07:39, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

::::{{reply to|DGG}}- re "''that people who want to remain anonymous will use such a fund''" - Well that's sorta my point. While there are other funds that distribute money, you use this fund in particular if you're trying to remain anonymous. It's like off-shore versus regular banks. They both do roughly the same thing, but the reason for putting cash in one is often different than the reason for putting cash in the other.
:'''Strongly Oppose:''' ''Mother Jones'' is an opponent of this organization. ''Mother Jones'' believes that "dark money," which is in fact perfectly legal under current U.S. laws, shouldn't be legal. That's their prerogative. Calling DT a "dark money ATM" is clearly an epithet. It's not neutral to repeat it, and it's certainly ] to scour the internet for every instance in which ''MJ's'' use of the term was discussed, positively or negatively, in other publications. Per ], we shouldn't be directly quoting from opponents in disputes. It doesn't really get much more at loggerheads than ''MJ's'' editorial slant versus DT's use of current IRS regulations. Finally, this text is poorly written and to the casual reader could make it appear as if DT is literally an ]. ] (]) 00:07, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
::::I feel like the "''not legally required to''" wording doesn't make this clear. It's similar to saying, "As a happy coincidence, Nick didn't have to pay taxes on his lottery winnings b/c he chose to put the cash into a Cayman islands bank".
::Thank you for your comment. How is '']'' an opponent Donors Trust? '']'' is a magazine and Donors Trust is a nonprofit grantmaker, are they competitors? What is your source for what '']'' believes? Have they editorialized on this issue? '']'' is not the only source for this content. The proposed content is reflected in multiple reliable sources ]. (The listed references are not every instance, there are others.) Are all the sources "opponents" of Donors Trust? Currently our article makes no mention of dark money, which is non-neutral with respect to reliable sources. The ATM analogy appears in multiple RS because it is a useful metaphor in succinctly explaining Donors Trust, not because the sources are opponents. Thanks again. ] (]) 00:37, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
::::As you point out, we can't make "explicit judgements" about Nick's intent. At the same time, we probably shouldn't do anything to imply that avoiding taxes was not Nick's intent. ] (]) 15:19, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
:::#MJ is "progressive" (their term). DT says donations will never be made to a "liberal" (their term) organization. Although ''we'' cannot put those facts together in an article, it would be foolish on our part not to note that they are idiological enemies.
:::(Summoned by bot) We ran into similar issues on the Panama Papers and related articles. We would up putting in a section on reasons someone might use an offshore account. I agree that "conceal" appears to make a judgement. I am not really sure how to avoid this without being overly euphemistic, because I agree with the happy accident argument above as well. I do not have time to dig into this but there are probably sources that go into the various reasons someone might use such a fund. Perhaps there could be a short industry overview section. Feel free to ping me on further discussion; I am interested even though currently not really available for serious editing ] (]) 18:10, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
:::#I do not subscribe to MJ, but I would be surprised if they did not publish an editorial against "dark money"; probably within days of the '']'' decision, and possibly before the decision.
::::{{reply to|Elinruby}} - re "overly euphemistic" - Exactly. A lot of the proposed wordings are overly euphemistic. ] (]) 01:07, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
:::Even so, if is possible that MJ's use of the term might be notable. More evidence would need to be provided, though. If a ''conservative'' organization took note of MJ's position, even if they were to note the position is absurd, there might be a justification for inclusion. — ] ] 03:25, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
----

: ''The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from ] --></div><div style="clear:both;"></div>
::::Take a look at this article . It's quite clear that ''Mother Jones'', and particularly journalist Andy Kroll, are staunchly opposed to what they call "dark money." According to ''Mother Jones'', DT deals in "dark money." They are therefore opponents, and it's a violation of ] to quote directly from opponents in a dispute. ] (]) 05:19, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for your comment. We agree '']'' has a progressive orientation. As you know from ], "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." Further, we agree '']'' has reported on funds given to non-profit organizations that can receive unlimited donations and are not required to disclose their donors, but using the term "dark money" is not a declaration of opposition to the subject of this article. '']'' has ink in barrels and ] has millions of millionaire's dollars, how are they "opponents" of each other? You were among the editors who objected strenuously to characterizing ] as conservative, do you now want to reconsider? It is violation of ] to exclude what ''multiple'' reliable sources have to say about the subject of an article. Are '']'', ], '']'', ], the '']'', and the '']'' also "opponents" of ]? Thanks again. ] (]) 15:10, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::Because of the clear fact that MJ is an ideological opponent of DT, and an opponent of "dark money", any connection MJ opines between them is not only opinion, but an expected opinion, and not worthy of note except in an article about MJ. — ] ] 17:57, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::The proposed content is included in ''multiple'' reliable sources, including '']'', ], '']'', ], the '']'', and the '']'', several of which are already in use as sources of this article, are they all "ideological opponents" of ] and therefore ineligible for use as reliable sources in this article? Is it your position that any source that uses the term "dark money" is ineligible for use in any article that concerns non-profit organizations that can receive unlimited donations and are not required to disclose their donors? As you know from ], "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective;" is it your position that only ideologically aligned sources may be used in an article? ] (]) 18:26, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

:All of the sources you list say things like "Andy Kroll of MJ called DT a 'dark money ATM.'" They are just repeating the original quote, not opting to themselves call DT a "dark money ATM." My point is that Andy Kroll and MJ are opponents of DT. The fact that Kroll's claims were repeated in other outlets doesn't change that fact. ] (]) 18:43, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
::"Andy Kroll and MJ are opponents of DT" Thank you for your comment. I understand you wish to invoke ] here, but may I respectfully ask again, how are Andy Kroll and '']'' opponents of ]? Are '']'' and ] out to destroy each other? Are ''all'' the sources involved in a "heated dispute" with ], a dispute so intense that we are prohibited from using them as reliable sources for what they have to say about ]? Is every disagreement regarding any issue in public policy a "heated dispute" with respect to ]? Is it your position that only sources that agree with the subject of an article may be used in an article? ] (]) 19:07, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
::"claims were repeated in other outlets doesn't change that" Yes, it does; please see ]. Thank you. ] (]) 19:07, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I see no reason why criticism leveled about this organization, which is referenced to high quality sources cannot be included in the article. Remember NPOV? NPOV states that significant viewpoints have to be present, and these are such. - ] ] 19:19, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

:I don't see how it is notable that a publication that actively opposes "dark money" doesn't like an organization that actively spends "dark money." It's a given. Yes, they are opponents. Do we put in the article of every Democratic politician that Republicans oppose them? Do we put in the article of every Red Sox player that Yankees oppose them? They are ''inherently at odds'', and it's not particularly surprising or interesting. Including in this article that a journalist/publication that doesn't believe in "dark money" chose to use a dark-money related epithet against an organization that is simply using current IRS regulations to its advantage is not neutral. It makes it seem as if there is something wrong or unsavory about what DT is doing, when in fact they appear to be complying with "dark money" laws. I'm sorry that Andy Kroll and MJ don't like that, but it's not fair to our readers to imply that DT is doing anything wrong here. ] (]) 19:30, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
::Thank you for your reply. I believe this may not be an appropriate application of ]. '']'' has ''investigated'' ], and ] wishes to keep its funders secret and '']'' has reported on ]'s funders, but that does not make '']'' an "opponent" of ], certainly not an "opponent" in the sense of "engaged in a heated dispute" as required for application of ] to spiking a direct quote. It seems to me if we were to apply ] here, we would be excluding ''all'' results of investigative journalism from our encyclopedia. What do you think? ] (]) 20:02, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
::The proposed content does not state or imply that anyone is doing anything wrong. ] (]) 20:02, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
::Political parties oppose each other over elected offices, and baseball teams content for wins, what is the finite resource that makes '']'' an "opponent" of ]? Thanks. ] (]) 20:07, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
:::Money. ] (]) 23:47, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
::::What? Seriously? Do you think there is overlap between '']'' subscribers and ] contributors? ] (]) 01:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::Are editors under the impression that people can only be opponents for material "finite resorces"? If so, I would have to disabuse them of that notion. People can be and are bitter opponents and even blood enemies over ideas and ideologies. Something I think we would acknowledge and recognize that upon reflection of history and current politics. Material resources are only one area over which people become opponents, perhaps even the minor area. The progressive vs. conservative ideological battles exemplified by Mother Jones and Donors Trust are deep. ] (]) 20:22, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::I believe you may be confusing an investigative journalism/investigated organization relationship for an "ideological battle." Obviously the intent of ] is not to override ] "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." Are '']'', ], '']'', ], the '']'', and the '']'' also involved in an "ideological battle" so "deep" as to qualify as "engaged in a heated dispute" and prohibit their use as sources as per ]? I understand you do not like the proposed content. The proposed content is supported by multiple reliable sources ], it is not in Misplaced Pages voice, it is attributed in-text, and it complies with ], ], and ]. Thank you. ] (]) 21:38, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
:I have said nothing in this discussion about the proposed content. I merely pointed out the obvious flaw in the discussion immediately above.] (]) 04:07, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
::As to the question re the multitude of sources you ask about, yes I have seen ''all'' of those sources kept out of various articles for bias reasons at one time or another. Sometimes their use is valid, sometimes it isn't] (]) 04:11, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

:::Per ]: "Avoid stating opinions as facts." "Misplaced Pages aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them." "Prefer nonjudgmental language." "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts." "Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views." HughD, could you please describe how this recent addition adheres to the aforementioned tenants of our neutrality pillar? Are there any sources you can find out there that might provide an opposing viewpoint to the information you've added? For example, the ''National Review'' article you include in your edit is sub-titled "The Left’s unprincipled campaign against philanthropic privacy." It appears to be highly critical of the ''Mother Jones'' piece, and others attacking Donors Trust. It seems a bit odd to include that piece as mere corroboration of the ''Mother Jones'' piece without actually including any of the content in it, such as "Readers of outlets like ''The Guardian'' and ''Mother Jones'' might be left with the impression that the practice of so-called 'dark money' is unique to the Right." ] (]) 16:09, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
::::Per your request, at risk of repeating myself, again: The contended content is ''not'' stated as a fact, it is ''not'' in Misplaced Pages voice, it is clearly ''attributed in-text'' ]. It is not Misplaced Pages language, it is the language of our reliable sources. The contended content reflects a highly significant point of view as represented in multiple reliable sources; the content is so widespread such that ] and the proportionality provisions of ] ''require'' inclusion; looking the other way on these many reliable sources is non-neutral. '']'' is reporting on Donors Trust, '']'' is not "attacking" Donors Trust. There is no basis in policy or guideline for your claim that ] is attacking; if it were, our project could include no results from investigative journalism. Again, '']'' is not the only source for the contended content. This article is not flagged as non-neutral because it is suffering from overly critical content, you may suggest content to balance the contended content. I look forward to collaborating with you to draw more significant content from these and other sources. I support adding the subtitle to the reference, thank you for the suggestion. The contended content wikilinks to ] and from your edit history, I know you to be a great proponent of the "a wikilink is enough" school of providing context to our readers; have you revised your thinking on this aspect of your editing? I would be interest in seeing how you might introduce into this article general content describing the ideological distribution of ] without going off topic. Thank you. ] (]) 17:19, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

:::::Hugh, I don't think you've met the challenges listed above regarding the ] of this content. You keep re-adding it, but I don't see that you're gaining ]. I also don't think you've sufficiently addressed my concern regarding ]. The new ''Mother Jones'' quote that says DT has "funded an assault" certainly sounds like an opponent's view, and it doesn't appear to be properly contextualized as such. ] (]) 18:17, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::"my concern regarding ]" Might you also be baiting me into repeating myself? You are misapplying ], see above. ] (]) 18:54, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::The contended content was refined based on talk page discussion and edit summary comments. "Try to move the discussion towards making a new, and different Bold edit as quickly as possible. One should seek to have an iterative cycle..." as per ] A policy or guideline basis for exclusion of these multiple reliable sources has yet to be presented. An alternaitve summarization of these multiple reliable sources has yet to be presented. ] (]) 18:54, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::"The new ''Mother Jones'' quote" This source and a version of this content was added in 2015 February, it is not new, it is long-standing by DT standards. I will be restoring the ''status quo'' while I look forward to your refinement suggestions at talk. ] (]) 18:54, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::I understand you really, ''really'' do not like '']''. I also know from your edit history that you have major personal commitment to articles on conservative think tanks. As you know, in an era of diminishing resources for journalism in general and ] in particular, '']'' has maintained a nationally recognized staff on the beat of the funding of conservative politics. Given your commitment to this area of our project and your commitment to our neutrality pillar, I don't understand your antipathy to '']''. ] (]) 19:01, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

:What? No, I'm not trying to "bait" you into anything. I'm trying to discuss the content at hand and arrive at a policy-based consensus with fellow editors. I assume, per ], that you're trying to do the same. And I have no idea why you think I have "antipathy" toward ''Mother Jones.'' That is inaccurate. ''Mother Jones'' is sometimes a ] and sometimes not, it depends on the context, just like most things. I'm simply trying to ensure this article's content adheres to our ] pillar. If you would stop making off-topic personal remarks to be about your perceptions of me, I'd appreciate it. ] (]) 19:14, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
::Are you familiar with ]? From my point of view you seem to be interested in deleting the content at hand, not discussing. How would you summarize the sources? ] (]) 19:23, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
::Sorry for your loss. ] (]) 19:25, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
:::? ] (]) 19:27, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
::::Rephrasing, sigh. If a Democrat and Republican candidate, contending for the same elected office, participated in a debate, and one candidate got frustrated and slung a racial slur at his opponent, we might report that it happened, but ''of course'' we would not quote the slur, and it is important that we don't and that's why we have a policy ] that says we don't. ''This is not that!'' '']'' and Donors Trust do not meet the requirements of ], by a long, long shot. Investigative journalism agencies are not opponents of their subjects. '']'' and Donors Trust are in different industries. '']'' has ''nothing'' Donors Trust wants, and Donors Trust has ''nothing'' '']'' wants. No one on the editorial board of '']'' is plotting the dissolution of Donors Trust, and the board of directors of Donors Trust is not meeting on how to deal with the existential threat from '']''. I do not have exact figures, but may I suggest ''no'' potential client of Donors Trust was ever dissuaded from opening an account by the contents of a '']'' article, and ''no'' '']'' subscriber has ever cancelled for going too easy on Donors Trust. ] is not applicable to ''any'' of these multiple reliable sources. And I think you know better. May I respectfully say, application of ] to this content is a stretch so thin as to doubt good faith. If it were not for good faith I might begin to think your opposition to this content is pointed. Do you propose that our project respond to this content from multiple reliable sources by ignoring them all? What is your alternative? Are we discussing or are you deleting? ] (]) 21:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


The term "Dark money ATM" is questionable given ]. It is preferable to state that the organization is considered to be a source for funds for _____ campaigns etc (ie the reasons why MJ wanted to use this pejorative label). As this is supposed to be an encyclopedic voice adding the term or even stating that others have used it should be avoided. Even if a number of sources have mentioned that MJ coined the term, it is not a wide spread term in the way asking for a "Kleenex" is all but synonymous with asking for a tissue. ] (]) 21:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
:Another stretch beyond ken. I understand that if you are a booster of Donors Trust, ''anything'' critical is the equivalent of calling them terrorists, but again, ''this is not that''. And I think you know better. In any case, may I respectfully ask, how did you miss "best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject" in ]??? ] (]) 21:14, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
::Your counter argument does not adequately address my point. How does it lend encyclopedic value to mention a label used by one source and quoted in passing by a few. This is not the same as calling facial tissue "Kleenex". If you think the inclusion of the label is not ] please show it by showing wide spread use. So far you have not. Please avoid suggesting or attacking the motives of other editors on article talk pages. ] (]) 21:21, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
:::We improve our encyclopedia whenever we fairly and neutrally summarize more reliable sources and more significant points of view. ] (]) 21:31, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
:::"mention in passing" All of the multiple reliable sources include the contended content in the opening paragraph or paragraphs of their coverage of Donors Trust. Multiple reliable sources do so not because they are engaged in a heated dispute but because it is an expressive and succinct characterization. ] (]) 21:31, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
:Oh, and I almost forgot, where are my manners? welcome to ]! I look forward to more of your insights and collaboration here. May I respectfully ask, what brings you by today for the first time to an article created 2011 September? ] (]) 21:24, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
::Other people are allowed to edit articles. No one ] any articles. Speaking of forgetting your manners, above, when you wrote "Sorry for your loss" to {{user|Safehaven86}}, it looks to me like you were referring to his recent edit noting the apparent passing of a Donors Trust staff member . Was your comment a misguided attempt at humor, an accusation of COI, or something else entirely? You mention ] above so I know you're aware of it, and given that, I find your comment particularly odd. SafeHaven, you might consider this ] or a ]. ] (]) 23:31, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
:::I can't speculate as to what Hugh meant by his cryptic comments (he didn't take the time to clarify them when I expressed confusion ), but I can make a reasonable guess it had to do with contributors and not content, so I left a reminder to that effect. Thanks. ] (]) 01:06, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

== Columbia Journalism Review: Koch brothers top contributors in 2011 ==

{{u|Scott Illini}} Please provide references that contradict this content. Thank you.

<blockquote>The Koch brothers, ] and ], were Donors Trust's top contributors in 2011.</blockquote>

{{cite journal|url=http://www.cjr.org/united_states_project/the_koch_brothers_media_invest.php|title=The Koch brothers’ media investment|journal=] |date=April 22, 2013|first=Sasha|last=Chavkin |accessdate=March 5, 2015 |quote=Charles and David Koch...In 2011, fully 95 percent of the Franklin Center’s revenues came from a charity called Donors Trust, whose top contributors were the Koch brothers.}}

] (]) 14:19, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

:] I saw at Scott's edit summary the obvious response. Donor records are legally non-public information, the CJR article referenced this information to an article that does not support the precise statement. Had CJR actually gotten secret records it wouldn't merely be mentioning the information in passing. Scott Illini is obviously correct that this is a minor error. ] (]) 20:08, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
::Do you have a reliable source that refutes the claim from the ]? Thanks. ] (]) 21:22, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
:::Do you have a ref, any at all, that suggest or confirm what obviously appears to be a minor and peripheral error in the CJR piece is, in fact, correct? Because right now the suggestion that Donor Trust has lost control of its donor lists (absent other media reports) is literally unbelievable. This is doubly so in light of the fact that CJR references the Koch "top" donor information to an article which doesn't support that characterization at all (hence the other editors referring to the error as ''obvious''). ] (]) 22:20, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
::::I have reverted due to obviousness, but to prevent confusion, please know that they reason there ARE reports about foundation donations to DonorsTrust is because the FOUNDATIONS have to disclose their own giving. But beyond foundation giving, no attribution is known because DonorsTrust is "not required to disclose their donors", per .] (]) 05:13, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::I don't think you can spike content because "they can't ''possibly'' know that, it's a ''secret''!" We are not here to judge the methods of our sources. I don't think it is for you or anyone else to say a source is in error, because you think it is in error, absent other sources. There's you, then there's the '']'', a publication of the ]. Investigative journalism is by definition bringing to light things others prefer to keep hidden. May I respectfully ask again, please provide a reliable source that contradicts the contended content. Meanwhile, please refrain from deleting the well-referenced, neutral, conformant contributions of your colleagues without basis. If you believe corporations are people and our project owes corporations respect for their right to privacy, or if you believe our project should prohibit inclusion of results of investigative journalism, please pursue your policy goals elsewhere. Thank you. ] (]) 17:02, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::Focus on content please. You have not convinced the other editors here. Your assertion that this obvious minor slip, this brief aside within an otherwise fine article, is the fruits of academic investigative journalism? In the face of the fact that the author ref'd his material to something that does not support the bit? ] (]) 17:55, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::May I respectfully again request one or more reliable source references that refute the contended content? Thank you in advance. ] (]) 17:59, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::I find it remarkable that the key criticism of this organization is that it is the "dark money" ATM of the right (Dark money being secret, non-disclosed, non-transparent donors and donations) and simultaneously an editor suggests that in fact the organization is apparently not secret, that its top donors are well known and disclosed because of an obvious error in an article. If the top donors were indeed disclosed it wouyld be headline news, not buried as an aside deep in another article. Amazing. ] (]) 18:05, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::In fact given this revelation from the esteemed CRJ, we should probably scrub all references to "dark money" from the article to comply with this amazing revelation. The org can not simultaneously transparent and famously secret. ] (]) 18:05, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::Seems to me your line of reasoning would exclude all results of ] from our project, is that your intention? Donors Trust clearly prefers that their donors remain private, do you believe our project should respect their privacy? ] (]) 18:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::"the key criticism of this organization is that it is the "dark money" ATM " Our article makes no mention of the key criticism, and our article currently makes no mention of ], which is grossly non-neutral with respect to abundant coverage in multiple reliable sources. ] (]) 18:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
May I respectfully again request one or more reliable source references that refute the contended content? Thank you. ] (]) 22:42, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
<blockquote>We journalists are, of course, obliged to cover the news, but our deeper mission is to uncover the news that powerful people would prefer to keep hidden. {{cite |first=Bill |last=Moyers |authorlink=Bill Moyers |title=On Journalism |date=April 7, 2008 |accessdate=August 25, 2015 |publisher=] |url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-moyers/on-journalism_b_95444.html}}</blockquote> ] (]) 22:46, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

== "Dark Money: The Left’s unprincipled campaign against philanthropic privacy", National Review, not RS ==

{{cite news |last1=Zeiser |first1=Bill |title=Dark Money: The Left’s unprincipled campaign against philanthropic privacy |url=http://www.nationalreview.com/article/388705/dark-money-bill-zeiser |accessdate=February 7, 2015 |journal=] |date=September 24, 2014}}

This source is an opinion piece. The author is a graduate student at ], described by the '']'' as "the conservative Harvard." Any content drawn from this source is not only an opinion, but an expected opinion, and not worthy of note except perhaps in an article about the author or the '']''.

This source is the only source used in support of four claims in our article:
# As a public charity, Donors Trust offers donors a more favorable income tax treatment as compared to donations to a private foundation.
# ... by a group of donors and nonprofit executives who shared the common goal of “promoting our free society as understood in America’s founding documents. (direct quote in violation of ])
# ... 70 to 75 percent of grants go to public policy organizations, with the rest going to more conventional charities such as social service and educational organizations.
# Other Donors Trust recipients have included the Foundation for Jewish Camp, Families Against Mandatory Minimums...

Respectfully recommend we seek alternative reliable sources for this content. Thank you. ] (]) 00:06, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:17, 17 December 2024

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to climate change, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully.
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the DonorsTrust article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30 days 
This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconOrganizations Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Organizations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Organizations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OrganizationsWikipedia:WikiProject OrganizationsTemplate:WikiProject Organizationsorganization
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconConservatism Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconUnited States Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconEnvironment Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis environment-related article is part of the WikiProject Environment to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of the environment. The aim is to write neutral and well-referenced articles on environment-related topics, as well as to ensure that environment articles are properly categorized.
Read Misplaced Pages:Contributing FAQ and leave any messages at the project talk page.EnvironmentWikipedia:WikiProject EnvironmentTemplate:WikiProject EnvironmentEnvironment
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconClimate change Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Climate change, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Climate change on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Climate changeWikipedia:WikiProject Climate changeTemplate:WikiProject Climate changeClimate change
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
If you are looking for ways to improve this article, we recommend checking out our recommended sources and our style guide

RfC: Does DonorsTrust "conceal" or "offer anonymity"?

The consensus is to use the alternate wording proposed by Marquardtika: "As a donor advised fund, Donors Trust is not legally required to disclose its donors, and most of its donors remain anonymous."

Cunard (talk) 05:28, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Looking at the section above; there's a debate about whether DonorsTrust "offers anonymity" to people, or basically "conceals identities".

Which one of these is the most neutral wording?

Current wording - "Like all donor-advised funds, Donors Trust can offer anonymity to its clients who do not wish to make their donations public"

Proposed wording - "Donors Trust conceals the identity of political donors who do not wish to make their donations public."

If you have an alternate wording proposal, let us know! 12:56, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

  • Proposed wording - As nom; there are a slew of sources that call Donors Trust a "dark money" organization (see Fox, NYT, Yahoo News). Saying a dark money organization "offers anonymity" to people is clearly euphemistic. Dark money organizations exist to conceal peoples identities. NickCT (talk) 13:20, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Neither. To be clear, the organization both "offers anonymity" and "conceals identities." These are just two different ways to describe the same thing. The first is from the perspective of the organization making a pitch to prospective clients, the second is from the perspective of an inquisitive outsider. We should take neither perspective. There are a number of ways to say the same thing without taking sides. For instance, we could say that DT "keeps its client list secret" or "does not disclose its clients' identities." R2 (bleep) 17:27, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Alternate wording: "As a donor advised fund, Donors Trust is not legally required to disclose its donors, and most of its donors remain anonymous." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marquardtika (talk • contribs) 17:35, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Neither - (randomly invited by a bot) This is a charged topic and neutrality here is challenging. Avoid words that ascribe motive and intent such as "conceal" or even "wish." I think Marquardtika has the right idea. Jojalozzo (talk) 14:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. Kroll, Andy (February 5, 2013). "Exposed: The Dark-Money ATM of the Conservative Movement". Mother Jones. Retrieved 2 April 2019.
  2. Callahan, David (August 23, 2017). "Inside DonorsTrust: What This Mission-Driven DAF Offers Philanthropists on the Right". Inside Philanthropy. Retrieved 2 April 2019.

Threaded discussion

@Marquardtika and DGG: - So here's the problem I have with the "not legally required to" language. It makes it sound as though DT's hiding client's identities is incidental. Hiding its clients isn't incidental, it's DT's raison d'etre. Your wording is akin to saying "A ski mask doesn't have to reveal a bank robber's face. Usually a ski mask keeps robbers' faces hidden"........ That wording makes it sound as though the purpose of the mask is something other than concealment. NickCT (talk) 01:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

DT is not the only such fund, and, while there are reasons for using such a fund other than anonymity, it is obvious that people who want to remain anonymous will use such a fund. We can make no explicit judgments on why they want to remain anonymous. The rest of the article gives enough information for readers to understand. NPOC means we don't draw conclusions. DGG ( talk ) 07:39, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
@DGG:- re "that people who want to remain anonymous will use such a fund" - Well that's sorta my point. While there are other funds that distribute money, you use this fund in particular if you're trying to remain anonymous. It's like off-shore versus regular banks. They both do roughly the same thing, but the reason for putting cash in one is often different than the reason for putting cash in the other.
I feel like the "not legally required to" wording doesn't make this clear. It's similar to saying, "As a happy coincidence, Nick didn't have to pay taxes on his lottery winnings b/c he chose to put the cash into a Cayman islands bank".
As you point out, we can't make "explicit judgements" about Nick's intent. At the same time, we probably shouldn't do anything to imply that avoiding taxes was not Nick's intent. NickCT (talk) 15:19, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
(Summoned by bot) We ran into similar issues on the Panama Papers and related articles. We would up putting in a section on reasons someone might use an offshore account. I agree that "conceal" appears to make a judgement. I am not really sure how to avoid this without being overly euphemistic, because I agree with the happy accident argument above as well. I do not have time to dig into this but there are probably sources that go into the various reasons someone might use such a fund. Perhaps there could be a short industry overview section. Feel free to ping me on further discussion; I am interested even though currently not really available for serious editing Elinruby (talk) 18:10, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
@Elinruby: - re "overly euphemistic" - Exactly. A lot of the proposed wordings are overly euphemistic. NickCT (talk) 01:07, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Categories: