Revision as of 21:50, 8 October 2015 edit65.126.152.254 (talk) →I've got a picture of a die..← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 08:20, 8 November 2024 edit undoNø (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,549 edits →Probability theory: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
(96 intermediate revisions by 42 users not shown) | |||
Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
{{Skip to talk}} | |||
{{notice|{{Find sources}}}} | |||
{{Talk header}} | |||
{{ArticleHistory | |||
{{Article history | |||
|action1=FAC | |||
| action1 = FAC | |||
|action1date=23:33, 22 May 2005 | |||
| action1date = 23:33, 22 May 2005 | |||
|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Dice/archive1 | |||
| action1link = Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Dice/archive1 | |||
|action1result=not promoted | |||
| action1result = failed | |||
|action1oldid=14087427 | |||
| action1oldid = 14087427 | |||
|action2=GAN | |||
|action2date=23:49, 27 December 2005 | |||
|action2result=listed | |||
|action2oldid=32929967 | |||
|action3=GAR | |||
|action3date=15:43, 22 April 2009 | |||
|action3result=delisted | |||
|action3link=Talk:Dice/GA1 | |||
| action2 = GAN | |||
|currentstatus=DGA | |||
| action2date = 23:40, 28 December 2005 | |||
|topic=Everydaylife | |||
| action2result = listed | |||
| action2oldid = 32929967 | |||
| action3 = GAR | |||
| action3date = 15:51, 22 April 2009 | |||
| action3link = Talk:Dice/GA1 | |||
| action3result = delisted | |||
| action3oldid = 284915841 | |||
| currentstatus = DGA | |||
| itndate = | |||
| dykdate = | |||
| dykentry = | |||
| topic = sports | |||
}} | }} | ||
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1 = | |||
{{Vital article|level=4|topic=Life|class=C}} | |||
{{WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors|old-user-1=Quadell|old-date-1=13:47, 29 September 2013|old-user-2=Greatpopcorn|old-date-2= 01:13, 13 November 2013}} | |||
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= | |||
{{WikiProject Board and table games |
{{WikiProject Board and table games|importance=Top}} | ||
{{WikiProject Role-playing games |
{{WikiProject Role-playing games|importance=High}} | ||
{{WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons| |
{{WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons| importance = Mid}} | ||
| b1 <!--Referencing & citations--> = no | |||
| b2 <!--Coverage & accuracy --> = <yes/no> | |||
| b3 <!--Structure --> = yes | |||
| b4 <!--Grammar & style --> = <yes/no> | |||
| b5 <!--Supporting materials --> = yes | |||
| b6 <!--Accessibility --> = <yes/no>}} | |||
{{WP1.0|v0.7=pass|class=c|category=Everydaylife}} | |||
}} | }} | ||
{{auto archiving notice|bot=MiszaBot I|age=90|dounreplied=yes}} | |||
{{User:MiszaBot/config | {{User:MiszaBot/config | ||
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} | |archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} | ||
|maxarchivesize = 100K | |maxarchivesize = 100K | ||
|counter = |
|counter = 2 | ||
|minthreadsleft = 4 | |minthreadsleft = 4 | ||
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 | |minthreadstoarchive = 1 | ||
Line 41: | Line 40: | ||
|archive = Talk:Dice/Archive %(counter)d | |archive = Talk:Dice/Archive %(counter)d | ||
}} | }} | ||
{{Archivebox|auto=yes}} | |||
{{GOCE}} | |||
== Dubious == | |||
As I was copyediting this article, I found some information in it that I find dubious. (Much of the article is unsourced.) In particular, the article claims "Tacitus stated that the Germans were passionately fond of dicing", but there were no "Germans" at that time, and any such term would be an anachronism. There were Gauls, Franks, Celts, Teutons, and Goths, all living in that general region and/or providing ancestors for modern Germans, and I'm not sure what group Tacitus referred to. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 17:49, 27 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
Also, the article claims "The word for four in Chinese, Japanese and Korean is a homophone of the word for death and is considered unlucky." Japanese, Korean, and the various languages in China are from different language families and have very different words for both "four" and "death". It isn't a homophone in all these languages. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 18:19, 27 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I guess we can see why it is was delisted at GAR... there's a lot of fix, but thank you for the copyedit! ] (]) 18:22, 27 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
::For anyone who's curious, The Chinese-Japanese-Korean thing is about the Chinese writing system. , the character for 'four' is pronounced the same or similarly as , the character for 'death'. Chinese languages, Japanese, and to a lesser extent Korean all use these characters, so this aversion is shared. Having said that, the connection to this topic is really "dicey", and I would have no problem cutting it from the article. ] (]) 08:07, 28 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
== fair and less fair == | |||
:::Three points for "dicey". I too think it should be omitted. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 13:49, 29 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
How about splitting the "Rarer" table into isohedral (including "long" dice) and other? ] (]) 05:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
The use of "Germans" probably refers to the tribes of Germania as collectively identified in this way by the Romans. It seems to me one of those ''acceptable'' historical anachronisms. For example retrospectively referring to the ], what was going on in "England" when it was clearly individual Anglo-Saxon/Danish kingdoms or referring to Christopher Columbus as Italian before such a country existed. Now to the red fours. A linked article says now about India being the origin of red fours. ''Why?''. Like thirteen in the west, four is an unlucky number in much of the far East and there have been sources to say the Red is a lucky colour used to compensate the bad luck. The origins of unlucky four may or may not be down to the homophone with death in Chinese, but it does not need to also be a homophone in other languages for the supistition to spread. ] (]) 08:45, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I'm curious how that would look. ] (]) 13:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I dispute that those anachronisms are acceptable for an encyclopedia. They are not NPOV because they are deliberate attempts to construct nationalistic narratives around ill-fitting historical facts. Your cited examples are more obviously non-neutral than the usage in this article that you mean to support by them so they actually undermine your case. ] (]) 03:16, 23 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
::Most of the non-isohedral dice have the word "truncated" in the table. All ]s, all ]s and ], and (effectively) all long dice are isohedral. ] (]) 05:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Die or Dice == | |||
::The line about Tacitus and the "Germans" appears to be derived from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica . I'll leave it to someone else to actually track down where they got it from, but as I recall, there's a lot of stuff attributed to Tacitus that only survives 2nd or 3rd hand, much like it ended up in this article. ] is a valid historical concept, so calling them Germans is slightly clumsy, but I don't think this is non-neutral. ] (]) 03:40, 23 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
For articles like ], ], ] and many others, the article title is singular, though several of the objects are usually used together. | |||
== Games played with dice == | |||
For dice, the singular can be ''die'' or ''dice'' and the plural is ''dice''. Thus, the title ] could be either, but the start of the article makes it seem to be plural: | |||
With ] you can play ], ], ], .. ].., etc. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 06:54, 20 August 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:'''''Dice''' (sg.: '''die''' or '''dice''') are small, throwable objects ...'' | |||
:Do you want to suggest any changes to the article? It seems to me applications of dice is sufficiently covered in the article, with wikilinks to relevant articles.--] (]) 19:24, 20 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
(my point being: this only makes sense if the first word is understood as plural). | |||
This is kind of odd, I think. Would this be better? | |||
:''A '''die''' (sg. die or '''dice''', pl. '''dice''') is a small, throwable object ... | |||
Logically, one might say this should go with renaming the article ], but I wouldn't support renaming. | |||
Also, given title ], this would be more logical: | |||
:''A '''dice''' (sg. dice or '''die''', pl. '''dice''') is a small, throwable object ... | |||
but I actually prefer my first version. Or perhaps this: | |||
:''A '''die''' (sg. also '''dice''', pl. '''dice''') is a small, throwable object ... | |||
Thoughts? ] (]) 08:03, 30 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I support: A '''dice''' ({{singular}} dice or ''' die'''; {{plural form}} dice) is a small, throwable object... <span style="font-family:cursive;color:DarkBlue;cursor:help"><span>]</span><sup>(])</sup></span> 08:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
This article is wrong. Don't read it! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:11, 2 September 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
::That would be logical, yes! | |||
::Arguably, with that lead, it would be odd that we throughout the article use the singular '''die''', and I don't think we should change that, which is why I prefer "A die (...) is". | |||
::(We use "die" 73 times and "dice" 129 times, and though I haven't checked all 129 instances, it seems that when we use "dice" it is either plural or dice as a concept, where using the plural form is at least possible.) ] (]) 10:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Only idiots use dice as a singular.--] (]) (]) 18:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Why would you want to be so rude? Both forms are correct. ] (]) 16:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Where, if at all, to put basic stat info for nDs dice == | |||
== Image falls outside of border in mobile == | |||
A while back, related to some research I was doing, I needed to gather some basic info about the results you get when rolling nDs+c and nDs-c dice -- It discussed the minimum value, maximum value, and most likely value(s) you get for particular nm s and c, including when the adjusted rolls would result in a negative value. This info has been useful for my fellow gamers, and I think it would be of interest to other d20 players, as well as those interested in dice probability, and perhaps probability more generally. As far as I was able to discover, this info is not grouped together in one place on the Web -- or, if it is, I could not find after a lot of googling. | |||
I was looking at this page in mobile view, and the image at the top of the page (at least) appeared to extend outside of the box for it, covering some of the page text. If it's necessary, I was using an iPad (unsure of version: school-owned) in a horizontal orientation. ] (]) 17:57, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
I've been told by a knowledgeable editor that such info is too detailed for the Dice page. Dice Notation was suggested as a location for it, but that page is about (several different) dice notations, and doesn't really get into the probability behavior of info related to them (sensible; the page is about notation, not stats). It also seems inappropriate to place this info on its own page; seems too detailed for that. So, I'd like the community's input: Is there an appropriate page for this info? Should it be on a new page after all? Or it is just too esoteric to be in Misplaced Pages? | |||
== Burnt City Dice == | |||
Many thanks for your advice! ] (]) 23:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
The burnt city dice are actually . Will mark this as disputed for now, unless anyone has a reason not to.] (]) 22:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
:I agree. That entire paragraph is a mess. I've removed all the dubious assertions without citations and added new references.--] (]) 20:27, 31 July 2015 (UTC) | |||
== Probability theory == | |||
== I've got a picture of a die.. == | |||
Obviously, ] is not something we should get into detalis about in this article. However, I think one, reading this article, should be no more than a click or two away from getting info about the relevant probability theory when throwing e.g. two identical dice, or two differently coloured dice, simultaneously. Perhaps it can be fixed by adding an appropriate link in the section ], but I'm not sure how, or what to link. Ideas? ] (]) 12:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Hello all, | |||
I just took a picture of an old die I saw at a museum dating back to 2000 B.C. Should I upload this to the Misplaced Pages Commons image page? | |||
:I added a brief paragraph to the "Use" section, linking to probability theory. I agree, it should be somewhere in the article, and this looked like a good spot to me. ] (]) 06:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 18:26, 8 October 2015 (UTC) | |||
: |
::Thanks! ] (]) 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 08:20, 8 November 2024
Skip to table of contents |
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Dice article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 3 months |
Dice was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
This level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
fair and less fair
How about splitting the "Rarer" table into isohedral (including "long" dice) and other? —Tamfang (talk) 05:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm curious how that would look. BOZ (talk) 13:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Most of the non-isohedral dice have the word "truncated" in the table. All Catalan solids, all bipyramids and trapezohedra, and (effectively) all long dice are isohedral. —Tamfang (talk) 05:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Die or Dice
For articles like Token, Chess piece, Coin and many others, the article title is singular, though several of the objects are usually used together.
For dice, the singular can be die or dice and the plural is dice. Thus, the title Dice could be either, but the start of the article makes it seem to be plural:
- Dice (sg.: die or dice) are small, throwable objects ...
(my point being: this only makes sense if the first word is understood as plural). This is kind of odd, I think. Would this be better?
- A die (sg. die or dice, pl. dice) is a small, throwable object ...
Logically, one might say this should go with renaming the article Die, but I wouldn't support renaming. Also, given title Dice, this would be more logical:
- A dice (sg. dice or die, pl. dice) is a small, throwable object ...
but I actually prefer my first version. Or perhaps this:
- A die (sg. also dice, pl. dice) is a small, throwable object ...
Thoughts? Nø (talk) 08:03, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- I support: A dice (sg. dice or die; pl. dice) is a small, throwable object... Alexeyevitch 08:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- That would be logical, yes!
- Arguably, with that lead, it would be odd that we throughout the article use the singular die, and I don't think we should change that, which is why I prefer "A die (...) is".
- (We use "die" 73 times and "dice" 129 times, and though I haven't checked all 129 instances, it seems that when we use "dice" it is either plural or dice as a concept, where using the plural form is at least possible.) Nø (talk) 10:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Only idiots use dice as a singular.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- Why would you want to be so rude? Both forms are correct. Nø (talk) 16:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- Only idiots use dice as a singular.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
Where, if at all, to put basic stat info for nDs dice
A while back, related to some research I was doing, I needed to gather some basic info about the results you get when rolling nDs+c and nDs-c dice -- It discussed the minimum value, maximum value, and most likely value(s) you get for particular nm s and c, including when the adjusted rolls would result in a negative value. This info has been useful for my fellow gamers, and I think it would be of interest to other d20 players, as well as those interested in dice probability, and perhaps probability more generally. As far as I was able to discover, this info is not grouped together in one place on the Web -- or, if it is, I could not find after a lot of googling.
I've been told by a knowledgeable editor that such info is too detailed for the Dice page. Dice Notation was suggested as a location for it, but that page is about (several different) dice notations, and doesn't really get into the probability behavior of info related to them (sensible; the page is about notation, not stats). It also seems inappropriate to place this info on its own page; seems too detailed for that. So, I'd like the community's input: Is there an appropriate page for this info? Should it be on a new page after all? Or it is just too esoteric to be in Misplaced Pages?
Many thanks for your advice! Eclectucator (talk) 23:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
Probability theory
Obviously, probability theory is not something we should get into detalis about in this article. However, I think one, reading this article, should be no more than a click or two away from getting info about the relevant probability theory when throwing e.g. two identical dice, or two differently coloured dice, simultaneously. Perhaps it can be fixed by adding an appropriate link in the section Dice#Use, but I'm not sure how, or what to link. Ideas? Nø (talk) 12:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
- I added a brief paragraph to the "Use" section, linking to probability theory. I agree, it should be somewhere in the article, and this looked like a good spot to me. Fieari (talk) 06:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks! Nø (talk) 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delisted good articles
- B-Class level-4 vital articles
- Misplaced Pages level-4 vital articles in Everyday life
- B-Class vital articles in Everyday life
- Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors
- B-Class board and table game articles
- Top-importance board and table game articles
- WikiProject Board and table games articles
- B-Class role-playing game articles
- High-importance role-playing game articles
- WikiProject Role-playing games articles
- B-Class Dungeons & Dragons articles
- Mid-importance Dungeons & Dragons articles
- B-Class Dungeons & Dragons articles of Mid-importance
- All Dungeons & Dragons articles