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| == kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan == | == kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan == | ||
| It should be noted that there are several thousand people of kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan<small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:44, 27 April 2006 </small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> | It should be noted that there are several thousand people of kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan<small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:44, 27 April 2006 </small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> | ||
| == KIRAT IN Mahabharat , Nepal & India == | |||
| == Rewrite == | |||
| {{archive top|result=Duplicate discussion. Moved to ].}} | |||
| There is mention of Kirat people & their history in Mahabharat , Nepal & India. Linguistically, culturally they are similar. Did they originate from Indian Tribe & migrated towards mongolia thousands of years back? I think some DNA Analysis will help establish 10000 years old relation of the tribes. | |||
| I just rewrote this article based on the ] I could find. Most of the previous version was ], without any sources. If anyone wants to add some of that again, please make sure that your claims can be ]. --] 20:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| "Kirātas (Sanskrit: किरात) are mentioned in early Sanskrit literature as hunter tribes from the Himalayas. They are first mentioned in the Yajurveda (Shukla XXX.16; Krisha III.4,12,1) and in the Atharvaveda (X.4,14), which dates back to 16th century BC. They are often mentioned along with the Cinas "Chinese". A Sanskrit-English Dictionary gives the meaning of 'Kirat' people with the lion's character, or mountain dwellers. | |||
| == Kerait and Kalmyks (Oirad) == | |||
| The Sanskrit kavya titled Kiratarjuniya (Of Arjuna and the Kirata) mentions that Arjuna adopted the name, nationality, and guise of a Kirata for a period to learn archery and the use of other arms from Shiva, who was considered as the deity of the Kirata. | |||
| Hindu myth has many incidents where the god Shiva imitates a married Kirati girl who later become Parvati. In Yoga Vasistha 1.15.5, Rama speaks of kirāteneva vāgurā "a trap by Kiratas", so about 10th century BCE, they were thought of as jungle trappers, the ones who dug pits to capture roving deer. The same text speaks of King Suraghu, the head of the Kiratas who is a friend of the Persian King, Parigha. " | |||
| Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/Kirati_people <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:32, 4 October 2019 (UTC)</small> | |||
| : Moving to avoid duplicate discussions. ] (]) 07:13, 5 October 2019 (UTC) | |||
| : {{Discussion moved to|Talk:Kirati people#Keraites in Mongolia}} | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| == Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2020 == | |||
| == Kerait and Kharot == | |||
| {{edit semi-protected|Keraites|answered=yes}} | |||
| Can it be that some group at least one tribe of these turko-mongolian tribe was left in central Asia and their descends are today the paashtun kharots/karots??? <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) --] 16:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| change turcic to turkic ] (]) 21:14, 19 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Done}} –] (] • ]) 22:22, 19 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :For now, those are just speculations, which have no place in Misplaced Pages. Once you can find reliable published sources that present a credible argument to support such a theory, then we'll consider the question. --] 16:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Removing protection == | ||
| I doubt in mongolian origin of kerey\kerait tribe. First of all "kerait" is a mongolian adaptation of turkic name "kerey". The -t ending is plural part of the word, same as english -s and turkic -lar\ler. | |||
| The name itself is of turkic origin, probably derived from word "qara" (black). The explanation of such name is that first kereys could have black hair contrary to blonde sary-kipçaks & sary-uysuns, "sary" (yellow, blonde). | |||
| {{Edit semi-protected|Keraites|answered=yes}} | |||
| Kazakhs usually call kereys as "qara-kerey" (black kerey). | |||
| I have been autoconfirmed for many years and thus can remove the semi-protected status of this article. However, I don't think I've ever done this before and believe it's better that a more experienced (in this area) editor has a look. The last edit on this talk page was 4.5 years ago and I didn't see any edit-warring in the article's recent history. | |||
| If the editor who looks at this agrees with me, he/she should also have a look at the ] article which is also semi-protected (and has been for 6 years) ] (]) 11:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :] '''Not done:''' requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to ] if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request.<!-- Template:ESp --> And no, you are not able to remove the semi-protection. Only an admin can do so. Autoconfirmed only gives you access to ''edit'' semi-protected articles, not change their protection status. ] (<i>] • ] • ]</i>) 13:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Change proposal == | |||
| Kereys could be a part Uyghur people, since one myth says that one uyghur had 8 sons, all of them had black hair and thus they were called kerey\kereyler (turk.) or kereyt (mong.). | |||
| Change Turco-Mongol to Mongol Or Turkic ] (]) 09:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Islamic historian Rashid-Addin wrote that kereys have several clans including Sakhĭyat and Dubout. These two clans were interpretated as ancestors of Sakha\Yakut and Tuvan\Uryankhai peoples. | |||
| Regards, ] (]) <small>—Preceding ] was added at 20:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :Does your source explicitly say that Sakhiyat and Dubout ''are'' their ancestors for certain? If not, then your changes would mean to sell speculation as fact. Your explanations above look very much like ], which makes your article additions suspect as well. Don't even try to draw conclusions about the origin of names and words if you're not a trained historical linguist, because you'll almost always go wrong. In this case, your arguments prove exactly nothing, because "qara"/"khar" means black in Mongolian as well. --] (]) 04:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::I can give you a pretty scholarly source saying that Mongols like to adopt foreign names - Turkic and Sanskrit ones in the past, Tibetan ones at present. ] (]) 13:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC) | |||
| a Turkic people ] (]) 10:56, 11 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Indeed they are a Turkic people related to the Seljuks, of course many modern Mongols descend from them, but I think it is time to edit out the extremely biased Mongol POV to a more neutral voice no? Kaz 15:47, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| You really believed in what Muslim historians said. --] (]) 00:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Where on the map? == | |||
| It's too hard to find Kerait on the map, I can't spot them..--] (]) 22:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Metropolitan of Marv? == | |||
| What is the "Metropolitan of Marv"? This sounds like someone has incorrectly translated something into English. The word "metropolitan" is being used here as a noun (usually this form of the word is used as an adjective), and the only real use of the form "metropolitan" as a noun is as a descriptive noun mean a "city-dweller" (but that is not a common usage). Is this supposed to be City of Marv (as in ])? — ] (]) 23:13, 13 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Religion == | |||
| Mongolian scientists still not found any archaelogical find to prove Khereid, Naiman and Ongud's Christianity, modern Mongols, ] and ] don't have any ancient Christian (Nestorian) tradition (source:Mongolian documentary film about Tooril).I think that very few (mainly lords) were Nestorians. ] (]) 05:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Do you have citations to back up putting such statements in the article?--] (]) 05:45, 16 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| It's Mongolian view, not European.Europeans love Christianity...Christianity is not nomadic culture.Chinese scientist found many ]es in Inner Mongolia but i doubt that it is enough proof. ] (]) 05:56, 16 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==POV dispute== | |||
| This article is about the history of a modern thriving Kypchak ethnic group which constitutes a major portion of Kazakhstan's Middle Juz. It is as wrong to present the nation as a Mongol tribe because this is how it can be interpreted from Mongolian Historical sources as it would be to present the Mongols as a Chinese nation as they can be presented from Chinese historical sources. This article needs to be re-written to reflect the correct language and modern condition of the Kerait and remove all Mongol Bias. ] (]) 07:02, 18 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Merge to Qaraei == | |||
| NB This discussion was begun at ] by ] unfamiliar with discussion rules. Said user voted in '''Support''' of the merge. | |||
| '''Support''' Khereid is just an alternative transliteration (from Old Mongol language) of the Black "Tatar" tribes otherwise known as Qaraei or better still Kerei in modern Kazakh called Kerait in Syriac Church sources who currently constitute a major part of Kazakhstan's Middle Juz. This should be a History section of the Qaraei ethnic component of the ].] (]) 19:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| '''Oppose''' The user above pushing for this merge now is the same one that two week ago wrote arguing that this historical article is about a "modern thriving Kypchak ethnic group." I.e., they are trying to push a modern nationalistic Turkic agenda, as opposed to a Mongolian historical analysis of possible origins of different tribes and ethnic groups the expanded geographical Khazak area (expanded because it tries to annex the entire Caucasus area to a supposed Turkic Khazak area before the Mongol conquest of the 13th century). It is just more modern, contemporary ethnic confusion (that tries to go back to supposed ethnic roots that antedate the Mongol domination of the 13th century) to add on top of an already very murky and confused historical record. The Qaraei article into which the proposed merge would merge this one is just a mess of ethnic legends and tales that is completely devoid of any serious historical sources backing it. ] ] 19:34, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :The Mongolian quasi-historical analysis and the Syriac Church documents are extremely important and must indeed be included in the history section of an article about the Kerey ("Kara Tatar" / "Qaraei") people of Kazakhstan's Middle Juz. No one so far is suggesting removing such references, just putting them in their correct place. There is no suggestion in either article about the Caucasus Warshy. I suggest you read again. I agree the Qaraei article will also need re-writing after the merge. After which, the article could be renamed too. There are a lot of standards which need to be raised. Central Asian history articles on Misplaced Pages are currently in a fragmented disarray of misnomers.] (]) 22:09, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Yes, modern nationalistic Turkic agenda arises. They want to say "Khereid's land is Turkic". ] of Khereid origin tried to declare that Mongolia is Kazakh land in the 1990s. ] is not peaceful politician, all people know it. ] (]) 03:07, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :So I suppose you will say any recent publications about the Kypchak Turkic origins of the Mongolian Khereid are in fact politically motivated? ] (]) 09:06, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Do you think you could cite some evidence for this?--] (]) 09:44, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Since it is all unreliable Kazakh political propaganda, what is the point? :( ] (]) 11:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So you are saying that the only reliable evidence is your expert judgment on this matter?--] (]) 11:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, where did I say that? ] (]) 11:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If it helps you understand better, my 11:04 comment is an example of ] that Warshy / Sczc have already decided that "the only reliable evidence" will be their already expressed "expert judgment on this matter". ] (]) 11:26, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Ah I misunderstood. I thought that you were saying that there was no point in your citing evidence for what you are say. | |||
| ::::::In that case, please can you cite some reliable sources as evidence for your contentions.--] (]) 12:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Like I said before, what is the point now? ] (]) 14:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It means the sources in the article (e.g. Church sources) talk about the Turkic nature of the Kerait people but they have been taken out of context and the Kerait are presented as Mongolians, and if anyone says that we need to report the sources correctly and honestly as they are about Turks, we will be called Kazakh nationalists pushing a Pan-Turkic political agenda. :( I would just like to see some honesty in reporting what the sources say instead of re-writing them from the point of view of Mongolian political agenda. But what is the point in saying this? If the majority of editors want to re-interpret and re-present the facts through the Mongolian political point of view, who can stop them? But a report on the reality of a situation is fantasy if it is decided by democratic majority rather than source info. Anyway there are more Kazakhs than Mongols in the World so it is only a matter of time before this article will be corrected by overwhelming majority. Wait and see. :) ] (]) 14:38, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. Judging from the above, there are apparently no sources to back up what the proposer says.--] (]) 15:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Origin of the ] is uncertain. Some Kazakhs say that ] originated from the ]. Also they consider Kipchaks and Khereid to be different peoples. These 2 tribes have different names: Khereid - Qaraei. Do you see any connection? ] (]) 17:13, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' and may I point out that Users ] and ] are blocked sockpuppets of ] so their votes don't count. I want to clarify that much of this and the Qaraei article should be merged, but then the Qaraei and this article could be turned into smaller articles dealing with the modern Mongolian and the modern Iranian tribal groups respectively.] (]) 19:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' This is just vandalism by blocked user kaz and his sockuppets hongirid and yuhuw. . Their edits are very similar, all of them one person. 70% of article deleted by yuhuw: . This is obvious vandalism.<small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:19, 11 January 2016 </small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> | |||
| ==Kerait, Keraits, Khereid, Qaraei == | |||
| Can someone please fix this??? If you look for Kerait you're redirected to Qaraei , look for the plural and you end up here?? That's just crappy linking. After a quick glance on both articles I feel that the first redirecting has to be removed cause in said article the Keraits are mentioned as a SEPERATE people so that makes no sense at all than to redirect to it as if they are the same. ] (]) 00:43, 28 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Fixed ] (]) 19:52, 9 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==Image== | |||
| Can someone edit the image please. It is inaccurate. The location of the Khereid was in Altai region. It is the White Tatars who were along the boarder of China. ] (]) 14:48, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| I think this image is fine if this article will be much more finely focused on the modern Mongolian tribal designation. ] (]) 19:57, 9 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==POV Issues== | |||
| There are serious POV issues with this article. It is written from the point of view of modern Inner Mongolians and not from a historical point of view. The tribe are only known as Khereid in modern Mongolian dialects but were not known as Khereid in the original source materials. Although the modern descendants of the tribe among modern Mongolians are indeed called Khereid this is anachronistic to call the ancestral Turkic group by the name of some of their descendants among modern Mongolians. The image is entirely fabricated and does not reflect any historical reality. The ancestral group was converted to the Nestorian faith in Merv (modern day Mary in Turkmenistan). Of course the Khanate stretched over a vast area, but the center was closer to the western parts of modern day Sinjiang than Inner Mongolia. Khereid are the descendants of the Kara-Khitan alliance. | |||
| In short this article does not know what it is about. If it is about the Mediaeval Turkic Khanate then it should use the Mediaeval name. If it is about the modern descendants of that tribe among modern mongolians then it should keep the current name but focus on the modern mongolians instead of on the mediaeval Khanate. | |||
| Someone please sort it out or better still just delete it. In its current state it is just shameful. | |||
| ] (]) 18:38, 9 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :I completely agree this article needs a complete re-write. ] (]) 20:00, 9 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==Recent Reverts== | |||
| I would like to invite ], ], ] and ] to join the discussion **here** and refer to that at ]. Please mention **here** why do you oppose the recent disambiguation of this page? Isn't it best if this article were about the modern Mongolian ethnic designation it is named for? Rather than about the ancient ancestral Kirgizian group who are not called Khereid in English, except for pages copying info from this page. I think it would be best to list the issues point by point. ] (]) 07:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :No, I think it would be better to have the discussion here. Until 31 December 2015, ] was a redirect page. This means that not many people have it on their watch lists. This page has a much longer history; so more people are likely to see it.--<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">] ]</span> 08:13, 11 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::That is what I said, **here**. I put in some markers in my previous comment for you to see it more clearly. | |||
| ::OK so "Watchlists" is one reason. Thank you. ] (]) 08:35, 11 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Nothing to disscuss. user kaz blocked. yuhuw/hongirid are sockpuppets of kaz: | |||
| , . | |||
| :I assure you I am no sock-puppet. And please stop calling me Kaz, I have asked many times now. ] (]) 20:04, 11 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
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kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan
It should be noted that there are several thousand people of kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.16.16.26 (talk) 12:44, 27 April 2006
KIRAT IN Mahabharat , Nepal & India
Duplicate discussion. Moved to Talk:Kirati people#Keraites in Mongolia.The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is mention of Kirat people & their history in Mahabharat , Nepal & India. Linguistically, culturally they are similar. Did they originate from Indian Tribe & migrated towards mongolia thousands of years back? I think some DNA Analysis will help establish 10000 years old relation of the tribes.
"Kirātas (Sanskrit: किरात) are mentioned in early Sanskrit literature as hunter tribes from the Himalayas. They are first mentioned in the Yajurveda (Shukla XXX.16; Krisha III.4,12,1) and in the Atharvaveda (X.4,14), which dates back to 16th century BC. They are often mentioned along with the Cinas "Chinese". A Sanskrit-English Dictionary gives the meaning of 'Kirat' people with the lion's character, or mountain dwellers.
The Sanskrit kavya titled Kiratarjuniya (Of Arjuna and the Kirata) mentions that Arjuna adopted the name, nationality, and guise of a Kirata for a period to learn archery and the use of other arms from Shiva, who was considered as the deity of the Kirata.
Hindu myth has many incidents where the god Shiva imitates a married Kirati girl who later become Parvati. In Yoga Vasistha 1.15.5, Rama speaks of kirāteneva vāgurā "a trap by Kiratas", so about 10th century BCE, they were thought of as jungle trappers, the ones who dug pits to capture roving deer. The same text speaks of King Suraghu, the head of the Kiratas who is a friend of the Persian King, Parigha. "
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/Kirati_people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.196.34.144 (talk) 21:32, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
- Moving to avoid duplicate discussions. Mathglot (talk) 07:13, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
Moved to Talk:Kirati people § Keraites in Mongolia
Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2020
 | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
change turcic to turkic 37.47.108.105 (talk) 21:14, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Done –Removing protection
| This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I have been autoconfirmed for many years and thus can remove the semi-protected status of this article. However, I don't think I've ever done this before and believe it's better that a more experienced (in this area) editor has a look. The last edit on this talk page was 4.5 years ago and I didn't see any edit-warring in the article's recent history. If the editor who looks at this agrees with me, he/she should also have a look at the Mongols article which is also semi-protected (and has been for 6 years) Dutchy45 (talk) 11:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. And no, you are not able to remove the semi-protection. Only an admin can do so. Autoconfirmed only gives you access to edit semi-protected articles, not change their protection status. Bsoyka (t • c • g) 13:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Change proposal
Change Turco-Mongol to Mongol Or Turkic Vofa (talk) 09:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
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