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| == kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan == | == kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan == | ||
| It should be noted that there are several thousand people of kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan<small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:44, 27 April 2006 </small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> | It should be noted that there are several thousand people of kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan<small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:44, 27 April 2006 </small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> | ||
| == KIRAT IN Mahabharat , Nepal & India == | |||
| == Rewrite == | |||
| {{archive top|result=Duplicate discussion. Moved to ].}} | |||
| There is mention of Kirat people & their history in Mahabharat , Nepal & India. Linguistically, culturally they are similar. Did they originate from Indian Tribe & migrated towards mongolia thousands of years back? I think some DNA Analysis will help establish 10000 years old relation of the tribes. | |||
| I just rewrote this article based on the ] I could find. Most of the previous version was ], without any sources. If anyone wants to add some of that again, please make sure that your claims can be ]. --] 20:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| "Kirātas (Sanskrit: किरात) are mentioned in early Sanskrit literature as hunter tribes from the Himalayas. They are first mentioned in the Yajurveda (Shukla XXX.16; Krisha III.4,12,1) and in the Atharvaveda (X.4,14), which dates back to 16th century BC. They are often mentioned along with the Cinas "Chinese". A Sanskrit-English Dictionary gives the meaning of 'Kirat' people with the lion's character, or mountain dwellers. | |||
| == Kerait and Kalmyks (Oirad) == | |||
| The Sanskrit kavya titled Kiratarjuniya (Of Arjuna and the Kirata) mentions that Arjuna adopted the name, nationality, and guise of a Kirata for a period to learn archery and the use of other arms from Shiva, who was considered as the deity of the Kirata. | |||
| Hindu myth has many incidents where the god Shiva imitates a married Kirati girl who later become Parvati. In Yoga Vasistha 1.15.5, Rama speaks of kirāteneva vāgurā "a trap by Kiratas", so about 10th century BCE, they were thought of as jungle trappers, the ones who dug pits to capture roving deer. The same text speaks of King Suraghu, the head of the Kiratas who is a friend of the Persian King, Parigha. " | |||
| Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/Kirati_people <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:32, 4 October 2019 (UTC)</small> | |||
| : Moving to avoid duplicate discussions. ] (]) 07:13, 5 October 2019 (UTC) | |||
| : {{Discussion moved to|Talk:Kirati people#Keraites in Mongolia}} | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| == Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2020 == | |||
| == Kerait and Kharot == | |||
| {{edit semi-protected|Keraites|answered=yes}} | |||
| Can it be that some group at least one tribe of these turko-mongolian tribe was left in central Asia and their descends are today the paashtun kharots/karots??? <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) --] 16:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| change turcic to turkic ] (]) 21:14, 19 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Done}} –] (] • ]) 22:22, 19 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :For now, those are just speculations, which have no place in Misplaced Pages. Once you can find reliable published sources that present a credible argument to support such a theory, then we'll consider the question. --] 16:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Removing protection == | ||
| I doubt in mongolian origin of kerey\kerait tribe. First of all "kerait" is a mongolian adaptation of turkic name "kerey". The -t ending is plural part of the word, same as english -s and turkic -lar\ler. | |||
| The name itself is of turkic origin, probably derived from word "qara" (black). The explanation of such name is that first kereys could have black hair contrary to blonde sary-kipçaks & sary-uysuns, "sary" (yellow, blonde). | |||
| {{Edit semi-protected|Keraites|answered=yes}} | |||
| Kazakhs usually call kereys as "qara-kerey" (black kerey). | |||
| I have been autoconfirmed for many years and thus can remove the semi-protected status of this article. However, I don't think I've ever done this before and believe it's better that a more experienced (in this area) editor has a look. The last edit on this talk page was 4.5 years ago and I didn't see any edit-warring in the article's recent history. | |||
| If the editor who looks at this agrees with me, he/she should also have a look at the ] article which is also semi-protected (and has been for 6 years) ] (]) 11:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :] '''Not done:''' requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to ] if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request.<!-- Template:ESp --> And no, you are not able to remove the semi-protection. Only an admin can do so. Autoconfirmed only gives you access to ''edit'' semi-protected articles, not change their protection status. ] (<i>] • ] • ]</i>) 13:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Change proposal == | |||
| Kereys could be a part Uyghur people, since one myth says that one uyghur had 8 sons, all of them had black hair and thus they were called kerey\kereyler (turk.) or kereyt (mong.). | |||
| Change Turco-Mongol to Mongol Or Turkic ] (]) 09:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Islamic historian Rashid-Addin wrote that kereys have several clans including Sakhĭyat and Dubout. These two clans were interpretated as ancestors of Sakha\Yakut and Tuvan\Uryankhai peoples. | |||
| Regards, ] (]) <small>—Preceding ] was added at 20:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :Does your source explicitly say that Sakhiyat and Dubout ''are'' their ancestors for certain? If not, then your changes would mean to sell speculation as fact. Your explanations above look very much like ], which makes your article additions suspect as well. Don't even try to draw conclusions about the origin of names and words if you're not a trained historical linguist, because you'll almost always go wrong. In this case, your arguments prove exactly nothing, because "qara"/"khar" means black in Mongolian as well. --] (]) 04:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::I can give you a pretty scholarly source saying that Mongols like to adopt foreign names - Turkic and Sanskrit ones in the past, Tibetan ones at present. ] (]) 13:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC) | |||
| a Turkic people ] (]) 10:56, 11 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Indeed they are a Turkic people related to the Seljuks, of course many modern Mongols descend from them, but I think it is time to edit out the extremely biased Mongol POV to a more neutral voice no? Kaz 15:47, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| You really believed in what Muslim historians said. --] (]) 00:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Where on the map? == | |||
| It's too hard to find Kerait on the map, I can't spot them..--] (]) 22:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == Metropolitan of Marv? == | |||
| What is the "Metropolitan of Marv"? This sounds like someone has incorrectly translated something into English. The word "metropolitan" is being used here as a noun (usually this form of the word is used as an adjective), and the only real use of the form "metropolitan" as a noun is as a descriptive noun mean a "city-dweller" (but that is not a common usage). Is this supposed to be City of Marv (as in ])? — ] (]) 23:13, 13 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Religion == | |||
| Mongolian scientists still not found any archaelogical find to prove Khereid, Naiman and Ongud's Christianity, modern Mongols, ] and ] don't have any ancient Christian (Nestorian) tradition (source:Mongolian documentary film about Tooril).I think that very few (mainly lords) were Nestorians. ] (]) 05:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Do you have citations to back up putting such statements in the article?--] (]) 05:45, 16 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| It's Mongolian view, not European.Europeans love Christianity...Christianity is not nomadic culture.Chinese scientist found many ]es in Inner Mongolia but i doubt that it is enough proof. ] (]) 05:56, 16 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==POV dispute== | |||
| This article is about the history of a modern thriving Kypchak ethnic group which constitutes a major portion of Kazakhstan's Middle Juz. It is as wrong to present the nation as a Mongol tribe because this is how it can be interpreted from Mongolian Historical sources as it would be to present the Mongols as a Chinese nation as they can be presented from Chinese historical sources. This article needs to be re-written to reflect the correct language and modern condition of the Kerait and remove all Mongol Bias. ] (]) 07:02, 18 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Merge to Qaraei == | |||
| NB This discussion was begun at ] by ] unfamiliar with discussion rules. Said user voted in '''Support''' of the merge. | |||
| '''Support''' Khereid is just an alternative transliteration (from Old Mongol language) of the Black "Tatar" tribes otherwise known as Qaraei or better still Kerei in modern Kazakh called Kerait in Syriac Church sources who currently constitute a major part of Kazakhstan's Middle Juz. This should be a History section of the Qaraei ethnic component of the ].] (]) 19:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| '''Oppose''' The user above pushing for this merge now is the same one that two week ago wrote arguing that this historical article is about a "modern thriving Kypchak ethnic group." I.e., they are trying to push a modern nationalistic Turkic agenda, as opposed to a Mongolian historical analysis of possible origins of different tribes and ethnic groups the expanded geographical Khazak area (expanded because it tries to annex the entire Caucasus area to a supposed Turkic Khazak area before the Mongol conquest of the 13th century). It is just more modern, contemporary ethnic confusion (that tries to go back to supposed ethnic roots that antedate the Mongol domination of the 13th century) to add on top of an already very murky and confused historical record. The Qaraei article into which the proposed merge would merge this one is just a mess of ethnic legends and tales that is completely devoid of any serious historical sources backing it. ] ] 19:34, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :The Mongolian quasi-historical analysis and the Syriac Church documents are extremely important and must indeed be included in the history section of an article about the Kerey ("Kara Tatar" / "Qaraei") people of Kazakhstan's Middle Juz. No one so far is suggesting removing such references, just putting them in their correct place. There is no suggestion in either article about the Caucasus Warshy. I suggest you read again. I agree the Qaraei article will also need re-writing after the merge. After which, the article could be renamed too. There are a lot of standards which need to be raised. Central Asian history articles on Misplaced Pages are currently in a fragmented disarray of misnomers.] (]) 22:09, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Yes, modern nationalistic Turkic agenda arises. They want to say "Khereid's land is Turkic". ] of Khereid origin tried to declare that Mongolia is Kazakh land in the 1990s. ] is not peaceful politician, all people know it. ] (]) 03:07, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :So I suppose you will say any recent publications about the Kypchak Turkic origins of the Mongolian Khereid are in fact politically motivated? ] (]) 09:06, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Do you think you could cite some evidence for this?--] (]) 09:44, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Since it is all unreliable Kazakh political propaganda, what is the point? :( ] (]) 11:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So you are saying that the only reliable evidence is your expert judgment on this matter?--] (]) 11:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, where did I say that? ] (]) 11:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If it helps you understand better, my 11:04 comment is an example of ] that Warshy / Sczc have already decided that "the only reliable evidence" will be their already expressed "expert judgment on this matter". ] (]) 11:26, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Ah I misunderstood. I thought that you were saying that there was no point in your citing evidence for what you are say. | |||
| ::::::In that case, please can you cite some reliable sources as evidence for your contentions.--] (]) 12:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Like I said before, what is the point now? ] (]) 14:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It means the sources in the article (e.g. Church sources) talk about the Turkic nature of the Kerait people but they have been taken out of context and the Kerait are presented as Mongolians, and if anyone says that we need to report the sources correctly and honestly as they are about Turks, we will be called Kazakh nationalists pushing a Pan-Turkic political agenda. :( I would just like to see some honesty in reporting what the sources say instead of re-writing them from the point of view of Mongolian political agenda. But what is the point in saying this? If the majority of editors want to re-interpret and re-present the facts through the Mongolian political point of view, who can stop them? But a report on the reality of a situation is fantasy if it is decided by democratic majority rather than source info. Anyway there are more Kazakhs than Mongols in the World so it is only a matter of time before this article will be corrected by overwhelming majority. Wait and see. :) ] (]) 14:38, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. Judging from the above, there are apparently no sources to back up what the proposer says.--] (]) 15:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Origin of the ] is uncertain. Some Kazakhs say that ] originated from the ]. Also they consider Kipchaks and Khereid to be different peoples. These 2 tribes have different names: Khereid - Qaraei. Do you see any connection? ] (]) 17:13, 29 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' and may I point out that Users ] and ] are blocked sockpuppets of ] so their votes don't count. I want to clarify that much of this and the Qaraei article should be merged, but then the Qaraei and this article could be turned into smaller articles dealing with the modern Mongolian and the modern Iranian tribal groups respectively.] (]) 19:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' This is just vandalism by blocked user kaz and his sockuppets hongirid and yuhuw. . Their edits are very similar, all of them one person. 70% of article deleted by yuhuw: . This is obvious vandalism.<small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:19, 11 January 2016 </small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> | |||
| ==Kerait, Keraits, Khereid, Qaraei == | |||
| Can someone please fix this??? If you look for Kerait you're redirected to Qaraei , look for the plural and you end up here?? That's just crappy linking. After a quick glance on both articles I feel that the first redirecting has to be removed cause in said article the Keraits are mentioned as a SEPERATE people so that makes no sense at all than to redirect to it as if they are the same. ] (]) 00:43, 28 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Fixed ] (]) 19:52, 9 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==Image== | |||
| Can someone edit the image please. It is inaccurate. The location of the Khereid was in Altai region. It is the White Tatars who were along the boarder of China. ] (]) 14:48, 16 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| I think this image is fine if this article will be much more finely focused on the modern Mongolian tribal designation. ] (]) 19:57, 9 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==POV Issues== | |||
| There are serious POV issues with this article. It is written from the point of view of modern Inner Mongolians and not from a historical point of view. The tribe are only known as Khereid in modern Mongolian dialects but were not known as Khereid in the original source materials. Although the modern descendants of the tribe among modern Mongolians are indeed called Khereid this is anachronistic to call the ancestral Turkic group by the name of some of their descendants among modern Mongolians. The image is entirely fabricated and does not reflect any historical reality. The ancestral group was converted to the Nestorian faith in Merv (modern day Mary in Turkmenistan). Of course the Khanate stretched over a vast area, but the center was closer to the western parts of modern day Sinjiang than Inner Mongolia. Khereid are the descendants of the Kara-Khitan alliance. | |||
| In short this article does not know what it is about. If it is about the Mediaeval Turkic Khanate then it should use the Mediaeval name. If it is about the modern descendants of that tribe among modern mongolians then it should keep the current name but focus on the modern mongolians instead of on the mediaeval Khanate. | |||
| Someone please sort it out or better still just delete it. In its current state it is just shameful. | |||
| ] (]) 18:38, 9 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :I completely agree this article needs a complete re-write. ] (]) 20:00, 9 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==Recent Reverts== | |||
| I would like to invite ], ], ] and ] to join the discussion **here** and refer to that at ]. Please mention **here** why do you oppose the recent disambiguation of this page? Isn't it best if this article were about the modern Mongolian ethnic designation it is named for? Rather than about the ancient ancestral Kirgizian group who are not called Khereid in English, except for pages copying info from this page. I think it would be best to list the issues point by point. ] (]) 07:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :No, I think it would be better to have the discussion here. Until 31 December 2015, ] was a redirect page. This means that not many people have it on their watch lists. This page has a much longer history; so more people are likely to see it.--<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">] ]</span> 08:13, 11 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::That is what I said, **here**. I put in some markers in my previous comment for you to see it more clearly. | |||
| ::OK so "Watchlists" is one reason. Thank you. ] (]) 08:35, 11 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Nothing to disscuss. user kaz blocked. yuhuw/hongirid are sockpuppets of kaz: | |||
| , . <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:12, 11 January 2016 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
| :I assure you I am no sock-puppet. And please stop calling me Kaz, I have asked many times now. ] (]) 20:04, 11 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have yet to see a case for moving chunks of this article into a content fork. If a content fork it to be created, please can it be created openly, rather than making redirect page into an article. There are quite a few spellings in English for the group covered by this article, which of course is confusing, but that is life. I think the best thing to do, would be to improve this article on the Khereid/Kerait people.--<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">] ]</span> 08:59, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Toddy1, I do not think you are improving the situation by conflating random accusations of sock-puppetry with questions of content or content arrangement. Once we have dealt with the anonymous edit-warrior, there will still be ample time to discuss the merit of splitting or lumping among grown-ups. --] <small>]</small> 09:16, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::ok, I see this is a sad mess. We need to throw all below-par sources, and establish clearly which sources make a distinction between the ] and the ] and which do not. The two groups are so hopelessly conflated that I cannot tell if they are identical. --] <small>]</small> 09:40, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Agreed and agreed. I would also like to point out that I have discovered the current article was renamed "Khereid" (which is the name of a modern Mongolian tribal designation) from from Kerait and continually reverted back to its current state by the sockpuppets of ] which are listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Ancientsteppe the re-naming took place here and here ] (]) 09:47, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The ] redirect which is an accepted variant on the original English form Karait was reverted to another Ancientsteppe sockpuppet's version here (see ]). ] (]) 09:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| yes, ok, apologies all around, we were once again fooled by the "Barefact"/"Ancientsteppe" troll, '' because Misplaced Pages cannot get its act together'' and permaban a clearly disruptive user. | |||
| The situation is in effect very clear. The topic is that of the ] (this is the normal English form of their name), a proto-historic Turco-Mongol group absorbed into the Mongol Empire in 1203. ] is an example of how a sane encyclopedia article on this group would look like. Then there are various similar-sounding names of later groups, which may or may not derive from them and may or may not involve descent claim, all of which can be treated matter-of-factly in a "legacy" section. --] <small>]</small> 10:12, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I would be very happy to see all the other articles on similar named people permanently re-directed here to be dealt with in the legacy section especially if their numbers are insignificant. For example are there any statistics on the number of Khereid living in Mongolia today or on Qaraei in Iran today etc.? I think they can all be dealt with here. ] (]) 10:36, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I wish I could read German, it is an extremely important language for academia. ] (]) 10:45, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I would like to point out that the image which is User:Khiruge's own work can not be used here as it disagrees entirely with the academic sources. ] (]) 10:55, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Neither is the Kara-Khitan state under which the Keraites were vassals part of Mongolia or China today. ] (]) 10:57, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Does anyone know how to archive the discussions before this section? ] (]) 11:20, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| You can always use google translate to read articles in langauges you aren't familiar with, I do that all the time. | |||
| I think the general shape of this topic is now becoming clear, it is about a Mongol or Turco-Mongol group which can be traced during roughly 1000-1300. | |||
| Anything after 1300 should go in the "legacy" section, including well-referenced descent hypotheses. I cleaned up the literature section, and no doubt much of the content we have here can be traced to some of this literature, but as it stands the article is still full of confused or unsourced statements. | |||
| I agree that the map seems to conflict with the claim that they originate in northern Mongolia, but the question is, which "academic source" said what? | |||
| The statement "Their original homeland was located between the mountain ranges of Khangai and Khentii Mountains along the Onon and Kerulen rivers" seem to be taken from Hamdani's account of c. 1300 (I did not verify if it does), while the map claims to be "partially (sic) based on Mongolian National Atlas, 2009". All of this needs verification. --] <small>]</small> 11:35, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you very much ], to me as a novice it looks very good. The only thing I can think of pointing out is that we must remember Hamandi's dates. He is not talking about their original location but where they were operating at the time he was writing (around 1300) which due to their at that time high royal status (Mongke Khan was the first Mongolian crown prince of the Keraites thanks to his mother) was naturally Karakoram, the capital of the Mongolian Empire. I can not edit the article at the moment because of the protection level as I am still a relatively new user here. but i think it looks very good. Is it possible to lock this page so that it can not be moved again by Ancientsteppe supporters? ] (]) 11:48, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am sorry, I did not mean to block you from editing, I think you should be able to after five edits or so? Idk, the Mongols were notoriously ''mobile'', so if we have one source placing them in northern Mongolia in the 11th century and another placing them in southern Mongolia in 1207, that's not necessarily a contradiction. We need to establish exactly what Hamdani ''did'' say and report that. Our best bet is to just work through the short article by Dunlop (1944) and represent that as our baseline. We can also report whatever we find in Tynyshbaev (1925), but this is probably not really necessary, because most of the basic facts will be in Dunlop (1944) anyway. --] <small>]</small> 12:11, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's ok :) | |||
| :::Agreed, an academic informed me that modern scholarship finds it hard to add much more to what Dunlop already established. Thanks again! ] (]) 12:19, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==Name== | |||
| There is still an unnecessarily heavy "Mongolia" emphasis in the article though. And why are we using the modern Mongolian in the lead instead of the original Syriac? I have the reference for the "Kireis" name by the way ], It is in in Dunlop (1944) p289. ] (]) 13:59, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Also ] the Tokhtamysh comment which you removed here I removed the link here due to harassment but ashamed to say I did not attempt to check it first. Certainly Tokhtamysh rallied his supporters from those who opposed Timur, that much at least is well known. ] (]) 14:18, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :I inserted the Kireis reference. So far we have references for ''Argyn'' and ''Kireis'' descent claims. The other remain up in the air (including the existence of a modern ''Khereid'' clan in Mongolia. Afaics, this is just a ''given name'' in modern Mongolia. | |||
| :As for the "original Syriac", all evidence points to their name being simply from a Mongolian word for "black, swarthy". Turco-Mongol tribes often used such colour adjectives in tribal names, this is completely unremarkable (nor do any two tribes which happen to have picked the same colour necessarily share any common origin). If you have any reference on any "original Syriac" related to this, you are welcome to cite it. I noted your insertion of "Church Syriac: ܟܹܪܝܼܬ ; ''krit'' meaning 'weepers/mourners' connoting 'monastics' in reference to their black garb"), but this is entirely unreferenced and it is unclear what it is supposed to have to do with the Mongol khanate or clan. Perhaps such a connection is made in some medieval Syriac source, but then you need to cite that. --] <small>]</small> 14:44, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::@], beautiful work! :) Concerning the Kara-Tatars (Qara-Tatars a.k.a. Qaraei) the Encyclopedia Iranica is the source needed it seems this relates to the same invasion of Khujand you cited by Tynyshbaev (1925). Concerning the Karaimeans, ] mentioned some references I will try to find them. The word ܟܹܪܝܼܬ is from M. Dickens. I just googled one etymology is provided here and there is also the footnote number 99 on page 620 in the book A History of Palestine, 634-1099 by Moshe Gil but I will ask him for the detailed ref. ] (]) 15:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::you cite a Syriac dictionary confirming that ܟܹܪܝܼܬ means "to mourn" etc. This does not establish any kind of connection with the Mongol clan. It is possible that Bar Hebraeus suggests such an etymology, as he seems to be the only Syriac source on the topic. The first reference to the group seems to be in Arabic, in the 12th-century ]. I have my doubts that Tynyshbaev (1925) is at all a reasonable source, this seems to be more of a topic of "reception in early Soviet national historiography". --] <small>]</small> 15:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you ], I am still waiting for a reply from M. Dickens. | |||
| ::::At least isn't it time to update the "Today part of Mongolia China" comment to match with ''Argyn'' and ''Kireis''? What do you think about the Encylopedia Iranica source? | |||
| ::::I am also sure the native word is Black/Swarthy as you say, but this is Turkic not Mongolic ultimately probably proto-Altaic (''if'' Altaic is a "genetic" language family and not just a Sprachbund). | |||
| ::::May I ask why you still call them Mongols, don't Dunlop (1944), Grousset (1970), Tynyshbaev (1925), Kudaiberdy-Uly (1990), Bosworth (2002), Bosworth & Asimov (2000 UNESCO) all agree they were Turkic or have I missed something? ] (]) | |||
| ::::Going through the links to update following the merges and discussions I just found a reference to a modern Mongolian people called Khereid here on wikipedia ] (]) 17:01, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ah but it looks like that page was also created by ] :/ ] (]) 17:03, 12 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::FYI I have the reference about the Syriac word ܟܹܪܝܼܬ (Karaite) appears in Bar Hebraeus Chron. Syr. (1286) 204/184 writing almost 300 years after the fact. Before him, apparently, the Book of the Tower simply calls them "Turks" only. So anyway this Article's lead calling them a "Mongol" is certainly just another ]-ism. ] (]) 08:04, 13 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==RS Fake== | |||
| The name of Keraies on Persian كرايت Kirāyt(See Turkic page). Except of this there is no place to put on this pages the name of this tribes in other languages and supply so much weight to outdated Dunlop's mistake . In Holocaust period many scientist(including Jewish) claim for no Jewish origin of Crimean Karaites.So may be it is not really mistake ] (]) 23:39, 21 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disruptive users== | |||
| The article is stable. ] and ] please bring your issues to talk here. IF you are two genuine users and not just supporters of ]'s work then produce your sources here. Thank you. ] (]) 22:57, 19 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :(1) Is your only objection to the map, the person who generated it?--<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">] ]</span> 23:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :(2) My understanding is that article is about an ethnic group. The hatnote claiming that the article is primarily about religion is mistaken.--<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">] ]</span> 23:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you for finally engaging in an invitation to discuss -rather than revert everywhere with your team-mate then plaster warnings over everyone's walls if they dare challenge you. | |||
| ::My problem with almost everything ]'s sock-puppets promote is that there are no sources besides his own personal re-arrangement of the facts to suit his ] agenda. Bring a copy of a map published in a reliable source. No problem. | |||
| ::The Nestorian Kirgiz cross image seemed quite appropriate for these Turkic Karaites based in the original Kyrgiz homeland and ancestral to the modern Kirei Kirgyz people. If you have some other suggestions please bring my attention to them in a mature manner. As for ]'s ubiquitous use of the modern Mongol name Khereid, where is is written that these ancient Turco-Mongol people called themselves Khereid? Native name would best be written in Nestorian Syriac -if at all! At least the reconstruction "Karait" as an alternative name is sourced. Produce your ''honest'' sources please. And you might also respond to the examination of your alleged "google books results" waiting for you at ] while you are at it and perhaps try talking at ] about your reversions of that page to ]'s version too please. (if ] and ] are to remain on Misplaced Pages they should link ot one disambiguation page.) Honesty is the best policy Toddy1. Trying to pretend there is some sort of Jewish-Christian-Muslim-Pagan group by conflating them all together and obscuring the significant differences between them is very unhelpful, as is changing their standard academic name to something else. ] (]) 10:06, 20 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::The hatnote clarifies that we are ''not'' talking about a Muslim Turkic group called Karaites or ] ''nor'' a Turkic group which practice ], nor even a ] but this article is about a historical Turkic group called Karaites or ] who adopted Nestorian Christianity and were it not for this fact there would be very little to distinguish them from any other pre-Mongolia Central Asian tribe. There is no page about "an ethnic group" by such a name. (Is there?) ] (]) 10:06, 20 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::: 1) "Historical Turkic group called K'''A'''raites" is ] key wrong and unacceptable claim. The easiest way to see that is to look the name of this page in other languages. So first of all do not mess Keraities with Karaites(if some outdated cited by this users authors onse do that it is not relevant now).I doubt that these cites are not fake like his cites of Nehamia Gordon relating to Keraites, originalltuy Turkic speaken Crimean Karaites(before dejudaization that occured mainly at XX century when they started to speak Russian due to rapid assimilation -see the ] for details ). Nehamia Gordon does not mention Keraites at all: "According to the Karaylar-Karaites themselves, they are descended from Tataric-Turkic tribes ".He cites ] and Zajaczkowski -good known Crimean Karaites dejudaization activists. Nothing there about Mongolian Keraies tribe.No one of them did not claim any connection to these tribes or Nestorian Christianity. | |||
| ::: 2) The Keraites religion is only small part of the article. Even after ] enthusiastic edits it is only 30% of all article.So there is no rason to change hatnote to something different from pages of ] in other languages. ] (]) 21:27, 20 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The reason why you are failing to distinguish this article about the Turkic Karaits (the term Karaits is the term used by Dunlop 1944 which it was decided to be the basis of this article) from the Karaite Jews of Crimea is because you have removed the disambiguation hatnote. As usual your comments are full of contradictions as well as grammatical and spelling errors which make them very difficult to understand. Since there are no sources being brought forward the objectionable content has been removed. Although the name Karait/Kerait is apparently from a Mongol root word for Black, the academic sources are unanimous in mentioning their Turkic nature. The ONLY ''Turkic'' people to use the "K" form of the name Karai instead of the "Q" form Qarai are the people this article is about. If you have a source which supports ]'s theory that they were nothing but Mongols then please produce it. The term "Turco-Mongol" is being used for no reason other than a compromise for you. The name Kheraid it turns out from google is only '''a Mongolian family name''' although used in published sites which mirror ]'s version of this article. The other language versions of the article are clearly translations from this page so one would expect to see the same mistaken invention of terms. Enough damage has been done. fg ] (]) 06:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::P.S. Nehemiah Gordon is not mentioned in this article, if you have a comment about him you should post it on ] since he uses the term Karaylar. ] (]) 06:54, 21 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Same user more aggressive=== | |||
| ], would you like to discuss your recent attempt to remove the sources which have been restored here please? ] (]) 08:27, 22 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Sorry I did not see this, from above: | |||
| :"The name of Keraies on Persian كرايت Kirāyt(See Turkic page). Except of this there is no place to put on this pages the name of this tribes in other languages and supply so much weight to outdated Dunlop's mistake . In Holocaust period many scientist(including Jewish) claim for no Jewish origin of Crimean Karaites.So may be it is not really mistake ] (]) 23:39, 21 January 2016 (UTC)" | |||
| ::Usually new comments are posted at the bottom of the page sir. Well this page is not about Crimean Karaites so I suggest you take your issues there to be honest rather than posting them everywhere but. Nevertheless, since you brought it up, in your opinion is it a mistake or not a mistake? I mean are you ready to agree with the scientists (including Jewish) or not? As for your original research on the Persian name, I think you know it can not be accepted for the article because of wikipedia policy on original research. We are using published RS by renowned author ] as the basis for the article. I have also read the article and can confirm that ] has not faked anything. Are you a renowned author ]? Do you have a peer reviewed publication which you would like to present for consideration? ] (]) 09:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 16:00, 26 October 2024
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kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan
It should be noted that there are several thousand people of kerey/kerait tribe in Kazakhstan— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.16.16.26 (talk) 12:44, 27 April 2006
KIRAT IN Mahabharat , Nepal & India
Duplicate discussion. Moved to Talk:Kirati people#Keraites in Mongolia.The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is mention of Kirat people & their history in Mahabharat , Nepal & India. Linguistically, culturally they are similar. Did they originate from Indian Tribe & migrated towards mongolia thousands of years back? I think some DNA Analysis will help establish 10000 years old relation of the tribes.
"Kirātas (Sanskrit: किरात) are mentioned in early Sanskrit literature as hunter tribes from the Himalayas. They are first mentioned in the Yajurveda (Shukla XXX.16; Krisha III.4,12,1) and in the Atharvaveda (X.4,14), which dates back to 16th century BC. They are often mentioned along with the Cinas "Chinese". A Sanskrit-English Dictionary gives the meaning of 'Kirat' people with the lion's character, or mountain dwellers.
The Sanskrit kavya titled Kiratarjuniya (Of Arjuna and the Kirata) mentions that Arjuna adopted the name, nationality, and guise of a Kirata for a period to learn archery and the use of other arms from Shiva, who was considered as the deity of the Kirata.
Hindu myth has many incidents where the god Shiva imitates a married Kirati girl who later become Parvati. In Yoga Vasistha 1.15.5, Rama speaks of kirāteneva vāgurā "a trap by Kiratas", so about 10th century BCE, they were thought of as jungle trappers, the ones who dug pits to capture roving deer. The same text speaks of King Suraghu, the head of the Kiratas who is a friend of the Persian King, Parigha. "
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/Kirati_people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.196.34.144 (talk) 21:32, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
- Moving to avoid duplicate discussions. Mathglot (talk) 07:13, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
Moved to Talk:Kirati people § Keraites in Mongolia
Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2020
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change turcic to turkic 37.47.108.105 (talk) 21:14, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Done –Removing protection
| This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I have been autoconfirmed for many years and thus can remove the semi-protected status of this article. However, I don't think I've ever done this before and believe it's better that a more experienced (in this area) editor has a look. The last edit on this talk page was 4.5 years ago and I didn't see any edit-warring in the article's recent history. If the editor who looks at this agrees with me, he/she should also have a look at the Mongols article which is also semi-protected (and has been for 6 years) Dutchy45 (talk) 11:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. And no, you are not able to remove the semi-protection. Only an admin can do so. Autoconfirmed only gives you access to edit semi-protected articles, not change their protection status. Bsoyka (t • c • g) 13:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Change proposal
Change Turco-Mongol to Mongol Or Turkic Vofa (talk) 09:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
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