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Latest revision as of 20:18, 8 February 2023

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge and redirect. Because the consensus appears to have coalesced around merging, I have redirect the article to Subbotniks. All the contribution history is still available in Qaraimits, so material from it can be merged into Subbotniks as needed. ~Amatulić (talk) 06:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Qaraimits

Qaraimits (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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There has been a discussion on the article talk page about deleting this article, and it needs to be held here. I have moved the discussion here. Toddy1 (talk) 08:03, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

The meaning of this word in Russian -means like Karaim . While Karaim/Karaite is spelled with "K" the same speling of Karaimit may be better used here. But why we need to invent new English word ? The google search shows that there is no such word in English. The more common name of this Sect is Subbotniks.But it may create some disambig because this name used for all three sects of Ethnic Russians considering Old Testament.So this article need to be renamed or changed (due it small size) to sub-article of Subbotniks were all 3 sects need to be mentioned Неполканов (talk) 20:22, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Please could you make a proposal at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion. That way, there can be a proper and fair discussion.

My preference would be to merge it into the article on the Subbotniks. We need to use words to describe these people that are used in reliable English-language sources.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I also support the deletion of this article and the moving of any RS information that is relevant to the English WP to the Subbotniks article. warshy 22:38, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

The fact that Караимиты has never been translated into English before is no basis to delete or rename the article. But you are free to make your proposals as long as they are in line with wiki policies go ahead. Proposals by Meat-Puppet teams are usually rejected but let's see if you can manage to dupe anyone.YuHuw (talk) 04:59, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm not really seeing an argument here which is relevant to an AfD - as far as I know, arguments about the way foreign words are transliterated into English are not really valid in this kind of discussion. I can't tell if Qaraimits and Subbotniks are the same. So I'd vote keep on the basis that no valid argument is being offered, possibly also suggesting that a bold merge might be most appropriate if all participants agree that these two pages are describing the same thing. JMWt (talk) 08:23, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Keep They are not the same thing. Qaraimits are gentiles who live according to the rules for gentiles written in the Torah without reference to the Talmud (if they did that they would be called Noachides). For this reason they are half way between Gentiles and Qaraims being neither one nor the other. Subbotniks on the other hand are nothing but a Russian type of Sabbatarian Christian. At most one could argue that Qaraimits are half way between Subbotniks and Qaraims but only because they had Subbotnik origins, otherwise they would just be half way between Gentiles and Qaraims. But to say that Qaraimits are Subbotniks because of their origin, sigh, one might as well argue that Subbotniks are Russian Orthodox because of their origin. No. YuHuw (talk) 10:58, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Delete There are many sects of "Judaizers" around the world, as are the Subbotniks in Russia. All these little distinctions about which type of Jewish traditions each small sect prefers do not justify the creation on the English WP of a stub to accommodate the distinctions based on the preferences of particular WP Users, like the one that created this page. Anybody following the activities of this User will see that this is just a small platform he is creating so that he can start all articles in the English WP that refer Eastern European Karaites. And, in those articles, he will then start arguing that Eastern European Karaites are of gentile, not Karaite origin, as he is doing above. Precisely as his former "incarnation" here on the English WP, Kaz/Budo, did until he was banned. Now, after a couple of years without being able to disturb the history of small Russian sects on the English WP, he has devised a new strategy for editing this area of Misplaced Pages, which is enlarging the circle of terms surrounding the narrow area where his Caucasian-Muslim little sect exists, until he gets to the Easter European Karaites articles, which are his real only intended target on the English WP. warshy 12:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

The disruptive editor again mess everything,Noachides fulfill the 7 precepts of Judaism permitted for gentiles,while жидовствующие do not care what permitted and strive to fulfill all the rules and precepts of the Old Testament. There are 3 different sects of them. Only Molokans between them recognize the gospel.The name that is comon for Karaites between them is Subbotniks. Karaimits is less common name from missioner publications, I brought the RS above but was ignored again and again,The other common name for all kind of жидовствующие is also Subbotnisks,creating some mess because it is also the name for Karaites between them . The only way ro resolve the mess is to merge this article with Subbotnik Jews article.

Summary:

Merge into Subbotniks article ; Неполканов (talk) 17:41, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

No it is you who does not understand Judaism. They are not fulfilling all the laws of the Old Testament because they reject circumcision. That means they are fulfiling all the rules for non-Jews not for Jews. The same as Noachides are for Rabbinical Judaism. Qaraimits are just Karaite Judaism's equivalent to Orthodox Judaism's Noachides. Meanwhile Subbotniks (Russian Sabbatarians) are Christians (even if some might be Unitarian Christians), Qaraimits are not. You clearly have no understanding of the issue. Meanwhile could I draw User:Liz's perspective (since you already asked him to drop it on the ongoing ad-hominem against me, please, even after my vindication ? Неполканов must be considered to be either a clumsy meat-puppet or a sockpuppet of a clumsy puppet-master, as justified by examining the third occurrence of Неполканов (use the find function) on this page. It all brings into serious and justified question whether there is any sincere motivation behind this request for deletion by those three extremely close friends. YuHuw (talk) 19:46, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Keep but it could be better to understand for the reader in case we use K instead Q (or unlike), and emerge the whole Karaim/Qaraim community together with Crimean_Karaites, in order to present Qaraimism better. Manaviko (talk) 16:32, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

If you are suggesting we merge Crimean Karaites with Qaraimits together under an article entitled Qaraimism, it might seem like a good idea on the surface level, but might lead to endless edit conflicts too and that would probably cause blood to be spilled (humor) because Qaraimits have a positive view on Jesus while Karaite Jews do not. Karaite Jews would be very angry about trying to bring Qaraimits and Karaims and Qaraimism and Karaite Judaism all together under one roof. Like trying to mix Cypriot Turks and Cypriot Greeks together as simply Cypriots. YuHuw (talk) 19:06, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:53, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:53, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:53, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

• Merge into Subbotniks article . WP:NEO says that "Articles on neologisms that have little or no usage in reliable sources are commonly deleted... Care should be taken when translating text into English that a term common in the host language does not create a neologism in English." That applies to this article. The word "Qaraimits" has no usage in the English language outside of Misplaced Pages and sites that get their content from Misplaced Pages. The justification used for creating it was that there is a word "Караимиты" in Russian (see Справочник по ересям, сектам и расколам by С. В. Булгаков). "Караимиты" would be written in Latin script as "Karaimits" not "Qaraimits". But reliable sources in the English language do not call them that. The Subbotniks, by Velvl Chernin, p8 calls them "Karaite Subbotniks". There is a chapter in Holy Dissent (edited by Glenn Dynner), by Nicholas Breyfogle, about the Subbotniks - this says that the religious beliefs of the Subbotniks varied widely (p359), and that many embraced Judaism in its entirety, and that there was a split between Talmudists and Karaites (p373). The chapter has no special name for Subbotniks who followed Karaite Judaism. It does mention many of the names that Tsarist officials used for Subbotniks - neither "Karaimits" nor "Qaraimits" are mentioned. All Subbotniks should be covered by one article, because much of the information in reliable sources applies to all. Since the subject is covered in English language scholarly sources, we should stick to English-language names existing in reliable, published sources.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:32, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I support this position completely. I could not have argued this better. warshy 12:38, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

• Merge as suggested because this may be best connected to that article. SwisterTwister talk 03:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment -- I get the feeling that this is a religious denomination, which we would normally keep. It may be that it needs renaming. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:58, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
• Merge into Subbotniks article . As per Toddy1's argument above. This is just a particular variety of Russian Judaizers, not significant in terms of numbers, and not worthy of standing on its own as a separate neologism in the English WP. It is an irrelevant distraction to the field of religious sects in Russian history. warshy 22:16, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Delete There are so many streams of Judaizers, this one is not notable. The Zeus is Ha-Zeus (talk) 17:26, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

• Merge into Subbotniks article . As per Toddy1's argument above. This is just a particular variety of Russian Judaizers, not significant in terms of numbers, and not worthy of standing on its own as a separate neologism in the English WP. It is an irrelevant distraction to the field of religious sects in Russian history. warshy 16:34, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Delete Simply not notable, no need to merge either. TiberiasTiberias (talk) 15:56, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.