| Revision as of 04:25, 29 August 2006 edit195.82.106.244 (talk) →NPOV← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 08:58, 24 July 2024 edit undoTrangaBellam (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers22,563 edits →SourcesTag: 2017 wikitext editor |
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== Sources == |
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== Some inaccuracies in the article == |
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I don't feel the need to qualify myself as a BK, in real life or on wikipedia. You may believe about me what you will, but either way that does not disqualify me from making edits. My edits should be judged for what they, and not who they were done by, as with anyone else. Out of interest, have you been in gyan for 20 years or is it that you came into gyan 20 years ago and left some years after? How the Knowledge is taught in India and abroad is obviously going to be different due to a different audience with different cultures, traditional beliefs etc. I believe you have some bias against the BKs. The wording of your posts suggests so, as does your linking to an organisation made up of ex-BKs which would be inherently biased against the BKs. Please attempt keep your bias in check. I will attempt the same with mine. |
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* 1. 'I can certainly say that it <i>was</i> Shrimat for BKs not to court or accept donations from Shudra souls. It still is largely in India where bribery and corruption are rife but I cannot state if this is still true for the West now.' . If that is the case you will need to provide citations that this <i>was</i> the case, and the sentence that states that <i>'Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as " impure "'</i> will need to be removed as it does not cite an authoritative source. 'Murlis' on an ex-BK website do not constitute reliable sources when the topic at hand is the BK organisation itself. If it cannot be proved either way, it should be omitted from the article. Anything else would be siding with the version of the article before my edit simply because it was the earlier version. Also, the process <i>is</i> what is important here and not the person, as 'impure' souls are capable of doing 'pure' acts. After all, most BKs aren't at a karmateet stage and so are still 'impure' so to say. |
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* 2. a. Even if the BK estimates are seen as unreliable, then the article will have to reflect that. But at the moment that section does not cite a source. |
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b. 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' That is not even a proper sentence. It definitely does not belong under a section entitled 'Global Expansion'. What it lacks in form it also lacks in content. It is misleading in that it gives the impression that the BKs are hoarding money, and if it is to be said that the BKs have only ever once donated outside of its operations, then it will also need to be said exactly where this money is going instead. |
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* 3. 'Their god' is not neutral wording. Again, Brahma Baba is not seen as God. Yes, the word 'businessman' is accurate, but not in this context! He was a diamond jeweller but this was not continued once the BKs were established. This is misleading and derragotory, implying he became a spiritual leader because of the business prospects! Also it does not need to state that he was a 'priest or authentic caste Brahmin.' This section especially is full of fragments and needs to be edited. |
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* 4. Again, you would need to a cite a reliable and authoritative source. Also, any reference the BKs make to 'Krishna' is not what is typically seen as Krishna - with the latter being purple skinned, an avatar of Vishnu etc. This is inaccurate and misleading, and this sentence needs to be changed to avoid this, seeing as this sections attempts to outline the core philosophy and beliefs of the BKs. |
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I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. |
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PEACE ] 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC) |
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:'''OK. I apologize for the forthrightness but let us take this point by point using sources acceptable to the Misplaced Pages to check your neutrality, competance and integrity as a Wiki researcher. Unfortunately, the NPOV tag is all too often used by individuals or organizations that have something to hide, to discredit objective and documented reviews of their activities'''. A Wiki topic is not intended as PR for the BKWSU. That is what its own websites are for. Let us work together to provide citable sources. |
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:* 2 b.'''Donations and the Multi-Millions'''. Let us look at the British BKWSU zone as you are under its influence. Hopefully, you will be able to produce accounts internationally and from the Indian headquarters to disprove the assertion made at present on the basis of the folowing. |
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:According the English Charity's stated object, it was set up on 18 July 1975 to: |
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:* (I) TO PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION AND OTHER RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD. |
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:* (II) TO PROMOTE STUDIES OF AND RESEARCH IN THE FIELD OF HINDU RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY, YOGA (VARIOUS TECHNIQUES OF CONCENTRATION AS DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES) AND TO MAKE KNOWN THE RESULTS OF SUCH STUDIES AND RESEARCH. |
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:* (III) TO RELIEVE POVERTY, MENTAL AND PHYSICAL SICKNESS AND DISTRESS. |
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: Source: |
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: '''According to accounts held in the public domain at the Charitable Commission here; , over the last 5 years it has had a income of £1,200,000 to £2,800,000 and holds in excess of £15,000,000 in the bank taken in donations from its followers. It has spent approximately £1,000,000 on a new meditation centre and accounts state that its policy is" to invest in bank deposits".''' |
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: Show me, via the accounts where or when it has ever acted to alleviate poverty from the period of 1975 onwards and how it spent money alleviating poverty. Perhaps once you have done so, we can also address as an additional point, whether the BKWSU was actually set up to "PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION" and whether it is based on beliefs "DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES". Your statements regarding Krishna would seem to contradict this. |
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:Please note, Chief administrator, Dadi Janki Kripalani is on her own website reported to be a "a highly effective spiritual entrepreneur", here and elsewhere through the media. It would not therefore appear that the correlation between business and spirituality is contradictory to the organization's activities. |
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: Thank you. ] 14:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC) |
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::], had a look at the Charitable commission accounts link that you cited. Got to say it all looks entirely reasonable to me. Most of the £15 million is tied up in buildings and other essential service facilities. |
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::So how do they address poverty? Couple of things I might mention. When I first ran into the bk about 5 years ago now, I noticed discreet little boxes with “Indian Earthquake” Appeal on them. No hard sell, no obligation, but if you inquired you were welcome to make a donation, casual visitors included. |
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::As to how they do it in the West. Happy enough to speak from experience. You’re encouraged to develop a spiritual perspective which not only improves mental and physical health, gotta tell you bud, the day to day basics become a whole heap more affordable when you finally draw the line on the 30 fags a day and pub every night after work habit. More too, much of the infantile keeping up with the Jones’s led consumerism goes as well, so even more hard earned cash stays in your bank account. |
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::As to your query on “whether the BKWSU was actually set up to "PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION" and whether it is based on beliefs "DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES".” |
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::Well, I’m no real student of the core teachings, but I've had a look at one of the more balanced references on this site. Reender Kranenborg, Free University of Amsterdam. " Brahma Kumaris: A New Religion? " , 1999. Might shed some light for you. |
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::--] 00:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC) |
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==NPOV== |
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"I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE ] 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)" |
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:It is evident that the authors of this page have a clear dislike with BK. User .244 has his own web site brahmakumaris.info where he clearly edits, changes and does wahtever is necessary to fit his beliefs, it is not surprising that he wants to do the same here. Any serious "encyclopedia" must have a non-biased approach when informing the public. How many votes do we need to get the NPOV tag and a very strong warning? What is the policy on this? So far 2 votes. |
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:Last but no least, Talkabout. still waiting for the "computer glitch" in the brahmakumaris.info to be resolved. My membership there has not been reinstated. I am being blamed for calling "Ex-l" as "195.82.106.244" and that was considered a personal attack. Hopefully he will not edit this out. |
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:As always Best Wishes, ] 21:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC) |
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::OK Avyakt Bud, sound enough, but I can see no reference to this on the brahmakumaris.info forum, so I guess it must have been censured as well? What say you .244? Tell you what Bud, if you are Ex-l, then from what I’ve seen of your postings, I wouldn’t say you’ve a clear dislike for the bk, more the '''mother of all''' clear dislikes for not only them but pretty much anyone else you can find on the web with any hint of association with them. |
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::Guess we better make that 3 votes for the NPOV tag then hadn’t we? Sincerely ] 23:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC) |
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:::], |
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:::I must say to you that your sensitivity here is lacking. As stated before there was no issue until your membership was at risk. Play nice and maybe others will play with you. |
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:::*First, as you know many Ex BK suffer from trauma once they leave due to the constant talk of destruction. |
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:::*Secondly, the forums serve as a place where they (ExBks) do not have fear, where they have an outlet to discuss all these tenents that the Organisation wants kept secret and which they are trying to sort out. |
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:::*Thirdly, I see that the PBKs act with more tact and sensitivity in being able to play nice in the sandbox with both BKs and ExBKs. Your skills (computer/flash) are good, artistic and I am sure you can elicit some interaction from other active BKs. So, if you can't play nice, start your own party. '''MY VOTE IS NO NPOV'''. |
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::: Riveros 11 ] = ]? Are we having a duality moment here? |
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::: ] 01:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC) |
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:::: Bhais, |
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:::: a) If you want to use the Misplaced Pages, read the rules. '''" ''Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion, not voting. In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes.'' "''' |
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:::: That is the official policy. |
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:::: b) ] if you want citations, place one of the following citation request at the point where it is required by using the following markup ; |
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::::<nowiki> {{cn}} or {{Cite needed}}</nowiki> |
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:::: and allow us time to provide them. Be warned, it is a two way process and the BKWSU will equally have to provide its citations where requested and I would like to request now '''overall Global financial statements detailing how much money and what proportion of donations it has actually given to alleviate poverty, when it started to do so''' and so on. If you can request this from your Zone-in-Charge then we will make for a very neutral and accurate report. |
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:::: c) If you have answers, and citable sources, let us see them and reach that consensus. '''You have not provided any to support your positions to date'''. I am perfectly willing to provide mine. |
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:::: d) ], honestly, if you got kicked off a webforum for attacking someone else, go fix it with the owners. You are a BK teacher in Florida. That was obvious back in March of this year. What Shrimat have your taken to act in the manner that you are acting? Tell us the whole story. More personal attacks? |
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:::: OK, so I voted against your "" topic but the overwhelming consensus was against you. I am sure you love Baba but science is another game. |
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:::: d) Transformation versus Destruction. ] again. Yes, I also removed your Transformation re-writes. We all know that the concept of "Destruction" is and has been key to the BKWSU teachings. OK. I am very sorry if I hurt your feelings. But if the BKWSU have stated there is going to be no Destruction, no death of 6 Billion human beings, no Confluence Age, therefore no Golden Age '''- provide the citations'''. |
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:::: So, of course, it does not require a NPOV. What it requires is dialogue and citable evidence. Honestly, you BKs are becoming more like the ] every day! ] 04:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) |
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== Godly Intellectual Property. == |
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In order to illustrate the Misplaced Pages article on the BKWSU, we propose to reference original teaching posters as inspired and authenticated by God Shiva and Brahma Baba. |
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We have listed the following images but these require a correct copyright to be assigned to them. This raises an interesting dilemma ; |
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* '''Who owns the copyright to God's works or God's versions? Are they covered by limited, proprietory licenses or are they open and unlimited?''' |
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To our minds, the answer has to be no one. They must surely be in the public domain, or Copyleft, as they have been given freely by God, and Prajapita, to humanity in order that eacha nd every individuall may use them to earn their own inheritance. In a sense, God Shiva appears to support the GNU 'General Public License' principle. |
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Following on from this ; |
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* '''What is the accredited creation date for The Cycle, The Ladder, The Trimurti, and the Lakshmi and Narayan concepts?''' |
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=== No === |
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Presumably the individual artists gave over their personal rights to the images, as the ideas were not theirs in the first place, but perhaps you can clarify what rights Shiva Baba - or the BKWSU - exert over Godly Intellectual Property in your role in the Global IT Team. |
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* Anything published by {{tq|brahmakumaris.org}} or {{tq|Om Mandali, Pharmacy Printing Press}} or {{tq|B.K. Raja Yoga Center for the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University}} ought to be treated as flatly unreliable. |
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* '''Lastly, if possible, we would like to give proper credit to the original artists.''' |
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* ], again, ought to be treated as flatly unreliable. She had no academic expertise whatsoever and as far as I remember, what prompted her very-apolegetic portrayal of the movement was her husband veering away with the BKs into celibacy. |
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=== Meh === |
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We await your advises with concern. |
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* Encyclopedia entries —— be it the Routledge Encyclopedia of New Religious Movements ''or'' else — ought to be sparingly used. |
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Thank you. |
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* Whaling's ''Understanding the Brahma Kumaris'' (Dunedin University Press; 2012) is a primer aimed at undergraduates. A merrily sympathetic treatment, in what is one of the two academic monographs on the subject, it is . |
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* ] and Tomlinson are anthropologists by training; the latter, particularly of practiced religion. So, I have not much qualms with using ''Brahma Kumaris: Purity and the Globalization of Faith'' (Springer; 2012) but we ought not depend on it for reconstructing the curious history of Brahmakumaris (BK). |
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* ]'s thesis from Monash University. |
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=== Yes === |
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* http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bklandn_A4.jpg |
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* http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bkcycle_A4.jpg |
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* http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bkladder_A4.jpg |
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* http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bktree_A4.jpg |
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* Publications by John Walliss, esp. ''The Brahma Kumaris as a Reflexive Tradition: Responding to Late Modernity'' (Motilal Banarsidass; 2007). |
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] 15:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC) |
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* Prem Chowdhury's masterly ''Marriage, Sexuality and the Female 'Ascetic': Understanding a Hindu Sect'' (EPW; 1996). |
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* Publications by Lawrence A. Babb. |
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* Ramsay's article in ''Handbook of Hinduism in Europe''. |
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] (]) 08:57, 24 July 2024 (UTC) |
