Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 20:25, 3 January 2025

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ilhan Omar article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26Auto-archiving period: 14 days

This article was nominated for deletion on 10 August 2016. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.This page is about a politician who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. For that reason, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography: Politics and Government This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Mid-importance). U.S. Congress Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject U.S. Congress, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United States Congress on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.U.S. CongressWikipedia:WikiProject U.S. CongressTemplate:WikiProject U.S. CongressU.S. Congress Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is about one (or many) person(s). Politics: American Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as High-importance). Minnesota Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Minnesota, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Minnesota on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MinnesotaWikipedia:WikiProject MinnesotaTemplate:WikiProject MinnesotaMinnesota Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. United States: State Legislatures / Government Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. State Legislatures (assessed as Mid-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. Government (assessed as Low-importance). Women This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women Somalia Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Somalia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Somalia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SomaliaWikipedia:WikiProject SomaliaTemplate:WikiProject SomaliaWikiProject Somalia Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Feminism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Feminism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Feminism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FeminismWikipedia:WikiProject FeminismTemplate:WikiProject FeminismFeminism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Islam Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. African diaspora Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of African diaspora on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.African diasporaWikipedia:WikiProject African diasporaTemplate:WikiProject African diasporaAfrican diaspora Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You must be logged-in to an autoconfirmed or confirmed account (usually granted automatically to accounts with 10 edits and an age of 4 days) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened: July 14 to 20, 2019

Semi-protected edit request on 27 July 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

in the third paragraph, the author said something that is NEITHER of the sources. "as a result of her background" Please do not put your own bias into an article. These should be factual Rikochetrt (talk) 00:22, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: How is "racist threat to shoot her" (from the title of the BBC source) not a "death threat...as a result of her background"? The wording in the article is backed up by the sources. NightHeron (talk) 00:51, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Hi, the pronunciation of Ilhan Omar appears to be /ˈɪlhɑːn ˈoʊmɑːr/, IL-hahn OH-mar, according to the ref at the end of this sentence, where she pronounces it herself. JayBeeEll has asked that I get consensus before including it. Thoughts from others? Wolfdog (talk) 01:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

My opinions about this have not changed in the last four years: an individual editor listening to a recording and writing down an IPA transcription based on that is, in my view, unambiguously an act of original research. --JBL (talk) 20:01, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Right. You're saying that unless a reliable source verbatim says Omar's name is pronounced /ˈɪlhɑːn ˈoʊmɑːr/, you won't accept it. Of course, this is a near-impossible standard. Hundreds (perhaps thousands?) of pages however use reliable sources where a good-faith editor transcribes what they hear in a way that is consistent enough that dozens of other IPA-informed editors agree with the transcriptions; and editors/readers feel this is a very useful approach. (As one example of an internationally famous name, the article on Barack Obama provides a transcription with a source providing Obama's own pronunciation and a perfectly accurate transcription, one that all editors versed in Help:IPA/English would accept, but this too wouldn't meet your standard.) I assume the crux here is a matter of consensus more than any rigid policy, though it's certainly within policy for you to ask for consensus. So we can see what others say. Wolfdog (talk) 20:23, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Arabic/Somali spelling

There was an arabic spelling of her name that was removed, can that be added back for muslim readers and arabic speakers/readers? WP is a global project. Iljhgtn (talk) 05:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

This was removed several years ago for very good reasons, you should not add it back. Pinging all the users who took part in that discussion and have made any edits since 2021: @Zaathras, NightHeron, and Cullen328:. (I am JBL, currently traveling and not able to log in.) --158.144.178.11 (talk) 17:20, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I oppose adding the Arabic spelling for the reasons brought up in the previous conversation linked to by JBL. She is not an Arab and to the best of my knowledge, does not actually speak Arabic, although like all Muslims, she knows the basic religious phrases in Arabic. Cullen328 (talk) 17:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I read the entire previous discussion and did not really see any "very good reasons" for not adding the Arabic translation.

I do think it is helpful for the 13% of Somali readers who are fluent in Arabic, and I do not really understand what the downside is. I do get that it is not information that would be beneficial to all readers, but how is it harmful? If it is marginally beneficial on the upside, but has even less to zero downside, then I would still argue for the Arabic language translation, as well as the Somali language translation included. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:08, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

It is common practice for Somali-American, Somali-Canadian or similar Somalis to have the Somali and Arabic language translations included in their bios, here is just a short list I was able to compile:

Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi, Ali Jimale Ahmed, Abdi Kusow, Mohamed Haji Mukhtar, Abdi Ismail Samatar, among dozens of other examples that can be provided if desired. Iljhgtn (talk) 01:08, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Here is a List of Somali Americans for more. Not every single one has the Arabic, but the overwhelming majority have Somali translation, so I went ahead and added that at least, while we deliberate still over whether or not to include the Arabic too (which I see as doing no harm, but adding some benefit to the article). Iljhgtn (talk) 13:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

user:Iljhgtn, I see you added the Arabic and Somali spellings for several of the members of that list today. I would still lean towards following the result of that previous discussion (though if we add Arabic here and elsewhere, Somali first makes a whole lot more sense, as we typically include native names first if there are alternate names in the lead). I would lean towards establishing a standard across the board for Somali American public figures whose language of origin is Somali, but I wouldn't say we've reached a general consensus. ~Malvoliox (talk | contribs) 17:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Some of them yes, in full disclosure, but still the overwhelming majority of the translations existed prior if you look through the full list. Iljhgtn (talk) 17:58, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The harm, in my view, is in the foreignization of an American. Surely you know that the subject of this article has received an enormous amount of Islamophobic animus. Highlighting an unreferenced pronunciation guide in a language she does not speak furthers the idea that she is something other than American. She's not an Arab and her name is not Arabic. Adding an Arabic name also implies that she uses an Arabic name, which we have zero evidence of. The rationale that WP is a global project doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, because there already is an Arabic Misplaced Pages, where Ilhan Omar already has a page. See MOS:LEADLANG: "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single equivalent name in another language may be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses." We've done that, for Somali, the language her name is in. Per MOS:NICKCRUFT: "Alternative names that are not well known to our readers may not need to be in the lead at all. Excessive non-English language details can make the lead sentence difficult to understand." For these reasons, I oppose the addition of an Arabic name in the lead. TheSavageNorwegian 22:29, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. If readers want to know how the names of American politicians translate into their own languages, there are foreign language wikipedias for that. TFD (talk) 02:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I am convinced we can leave the Somali only then as a single other language translation within the standard parentheses per MOS, unless more reliable sources use the Arabic for her name or new evidence presents itself, at which time we can revisit adding Arabic. Thank you both for commenting in this discussion. Iljhgtn (talk) 02:32, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any support for this from anyone else; I continue to oppose it. Omar immigrated to the US as a child and has been known by the name in the title of the article consistently in the time she has been notable; the Somali spelling name is not well attested to in sources that I can see (and unsourced in the article, and not present anywhere other than the lead); the fact that you personally are the one doing this in many of the other examples you cite is good evidence that it is abnormal rather than normal for WP articles. So I have once again reverted the addition. --JBL (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

"...the overwhelming majority of the translations existed prior if you look through the full list."

Feel free to check the list and not take my word for it. Including the Somali is very common, Somali and Arabic somewhat less common but second most common, and only in the rarest of instances is neither Somali nor Arabic used, regardless of my input. Iljhgtn (talk) 00:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Somali spelling translation ONLY (No Arabic)

Is there consensus for restoring the Somali language translation of Ilhan Omar which would look like this (Somali: Ilhaan Cumar), which is in english characters and translates to appear loosely the same ("Cumar" vs. "Omar", and one extra "a" in "Ilhaan" vs. "Ilhan"). This edit was recently removed by an editor opposing both the Arabic AND Somali language translations. I came around to agreeing that the Arabic language version did not have consensus for being included despite being on many other Somali-American BLP articles (though I have added a few of those, but certainly not most). The Somali version alone, especially given that Somali is in English-Romantic characters, I believe also has a lower to zero risk of any "foreignization" potential downside, and only upside for adding context and native translation where it normally appears on a BLP when appropriate. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi Iljhgtn, thanks for your message on my user talk-page. As I said there, I'd prefer to keep discussion centered here. Here for me is the key point: if someone were going to convince me to take the view that Ilhan Omar has a Somali name, and this is an important piece of information about her, what I would want to see is evidence that "Ilhan Omar's Somali name is Ilhaan Cumar" is a piece of information that is reasonably well attested to in English-language sources about her. (You can see above that I also take a similar view about IPA transliterations.) As far as I can tell, however, it is almost never mentioned. So what it would take to get me personally to drop my objection would be evidence of this piece of information being mentioned in good sources about her. Of course to develop a consensus it is not necessary that you convince me personally to change my view -- but so far it does not seem like you have convinced anyone else, either. --JBL (talk) 00:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Personal relationships

I have removed "She has received criticism over her personal relationships, with political opponents highlighting her past marital issues as a point of attack" from the lead, as it is not expanded on in the article. Her relationships are mentioned, but there is no reference to political opponents attacking her for that reason. Black Kite (talk) 10:01, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

1. "Ballot Box | Ilhan for Congress campaign ad". YouTube, uploaded by Ilhan Omar for Congress, 2020, Video on YouTube.

• Biography articles of living people
• Active politicians
• B-Class biography articles
• B-Class biography (politics and government) articles
• Mid-importance biography (politics and government) articles
• Politics and government work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• B-Class U.S. Congress articles
• Low-importance U.S. Congress articles
• WikiProject U.S. Congress persons
• B-Class politics articles
• Low-importance politics articles
• B-Class American politics articles
• High-importance American politics articles
• American politics task force articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• B-Class Minnesota articles
• Mid-importance Minnesota articles
• B-Class United States articles
• Low-importance United States articles
• B-Class United States articles of Low-importance
• B-Class US State Legislatures articles
• Mid-importance US State Legislatures articles
• WikiProject US State Legislatures articles
• B-Class United States Government articles
• Low-importance United States Government articles
• WikiProject United States Government articles
• WikiProject United States articles
• B-Class WikiProject Women articles
• All WikiProject Women-related pages
• WikiProject Women articles
• B-Class WikiProject Somalia articles
• Low-importance WikiProject Somalia articles
• WikiProject Somalia articles
• B-Class Feminism articles
• Low-importance Feminism articles
• WikiProject Feminism articles
• B-Class Islam-related articles
• Low-importance Islam-related articles
• WikiProject Islam articles
• B-Class African diaspora articles
• Low-importance African diaspora articles
• WikiProject African diaspora articles
• Pages in the Misplaced Pages Top 25 Report