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== Book standard link == | |||
{{archive box|*]}} | |||
I've looked through the two articles in reference to the miniseries, and the only bit of info I can find that is in the "Book standard" link and not the "Comingsoon.net" is the following info: | |||
==Note to new readers== | |||
:"Phantom, the latest in the ten-book series, was released last week, with the 11th set for release in early 2007. The ninth book, Chainfire, was released in January 2005 and has sold more than 235,000 in hardcover and mass-market editions, as tracked by Nielsen BookScan." | |||
This page changes very frequently, and it is difficult to read chronologically. Make sure to look through the archive as well to get a sense of whole page. Personally I have found the easiest way to keep up to date on changes is to use the compare versions feature (duh!) but you may want to go back to mid-July to get a sense of the changes and issues of the page. | |||
] 12:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
Aside from that, the information that I can see is essentially identical, and the comingsoon.net article actually has more detail than the Book standard. The only info in the above quote is about specific books, and though it could be on those pages I don't see a need for the info in this one. ] nutshell is ''Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are meritable, accessible and appropriate to the article'', which was why I removed it in the first place (i.e. if the info is already there, why a second link?). If there is any further info that I've missed in the link, it's better added to the page and the Book standard tacked on as a reference, as per ''If the site or page to which you want to link includes information that is not yet a part of the article, consider using it as a source first'', also from WP:EL. | |||
] 18:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC) | |||
==Introduction== | |||
I am not picking a fight by removing the link. As I said above - WP:EL recommends keeping external links to a minimum and including the information as a reference if possible. Since there is already a reference for this information on the page it is unnecessary duplication. Further, since the info is essentially identical, it probably came from the same press release. There's no point having it twice that I can see - what is the justification for including duplicate information on the page? ] 12:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
Does anyone have a good source for the nubmer of books sold by Terry Goodkind? Options include: | |||
http://www.prophets-inc.com/news/ | |||
or | |||
http://www.scglit.com/press.htm | |||
or | |||
http://www.prophets-inc.com/the_author/ 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
:And I quote "Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are merit able, accessible and appropriate to the article: | |||
Mystar thinks that the figure should be 20 million based on figures from TG, I would like a figure that is justified more independently verified. I've checked the above links, and I can't find any reference to the 20 million figure. Mystar, can you provide a link to the 20 figure, or instructions on how to reach it? | |||
I see merit. You do not. It is another source and has more info. It is not a problem that it remains. It violates no policy; it is not anything that you read. Seeing as how in your own words you cannot stand Goodkind or his works...that leaves only one other possablity? So again I ask that you stop nit picking to start a fight. It is not the link itself (Seeing as how its been there for a good long time...), but rather me is the only reason you want to remove it. As you have said to others you'll agree with them, but not mystar. | |||
] 02:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:I see many other precedence of similar information being provided on other pages as external links, so again, having the links is not a violation, and is in fact allowable. You have made countless statements since your starting here, you hate Goodkind and wish to smear his name (and mine), so it is more than abundantly clear that the only reason you do edit Goodkind's pages is to try and nit pick and start a fight. As much as you abhor Goodkind one can easily make that leap< As we can indeed see it is not a voilation at all ] 13:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
:I would suggest using the ''exact'' TOR figure and simply making a notation that the number does not include many foriegn sales and then citing it. Sound reasonable? ] 04:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
::It is another source with the same information, coming from the same press release - it's even got the same quote. What is the extra info and merit that the link you keep reverting has? I couldn't find it, nothing that relates to this page. A short statement of this 'important information' rather than another accusation of bad faith would shut me up. And if it is adding extra info, it should be a ''reference'', not an external link. And it is the 'minimum' of the EL policy that I'm pointing to - having an extra link that says the same thing as one of the references is not a minimum, it is superfluous. It may be meritalbe, accessible and appropriate, but it is duplication. This link adds nothing to the reader that is not already there. The reason I removed it last week was because of edit, which brought my attention to the external links section. Notice that I did not try to remove the interview information because it adds to the page something that couldn't be in a reference but does provide something valuable. It is an appropriate external link. | |||
::If you see precedents in other pages, perhaps those links should be removed. Which pages did you see it on, I'll have a look and let you know if I think it should be removed for the same reason, or explain why I think it's valuable to keep. ] 14:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
And let you terrorize those pages? I think not. | |||
Sounds fair to me!] 04:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
As I said it does nto say it is forbiden or cannot stay.] 18:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
(moved from ] | |||
Thats odd, I see where I clearly stated it was due to "content" and that it is allowable under the very policy that you listed. Again I ask you to stop trying to create drama where none exists. WP:EL clearly states that it is "ok" but to be careful not to add too much, as I addressed on the talk page. You seem to be under the impression that only your opinion has any validity. Please try not to engage in a witch hunt ] 02:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
::You have not addressed what content within the link is useful to the article. From what I can see, there is nothing in the external link which adds to the article. There is no added content and added benefit to having the link in the page, it is just taking up memory. You say it adds content to the article, but I can't see what it is adding. And if it is useful content, it should be integrated as a reference. The reason I think it should be removed is because I can't see where it could go as a reference, barring a ''second'' reference for the SoT being turned into a series. The policy says meritable links. Because the information is already covered in the 'press release' reference, the external link '''has no merit''', it's just duplication. ] 14:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Then unless any other editors have a issue with it I think we can implement that change post mediation? ] 04:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
== |
== External link == | ||
Here is a breakdown of the verbatim material from the coming soon link and the book standard link: | |||
There is an ongoing debate about his work and influence. Older items have been archived, what is current remains below | |||
] 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
http://www.bookstandard.com/bookstandard/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002878399 | |||
I happen to have several prints of Goodkind's work in my home and IF you have any of the SOT books you also have some of his work there as well. Goodkind painted the leaf pattern on the inside pages of the first few books. It took him 50+ hours to do that piece, as it is a very difficult piece of work. dot, painting and shading is not the easiest thing to do. The image of Cara of Temple of the Winds is also a piece of Goodkind's work, but that is nothing compared to the real work he has done with realistic marine and wildlife paintings. He has several shows at various galleries, his last painting titles Penguins on Ice http://www.terrygoodkind.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2045 sold for over for over $30,000.00 ten years ago, and was just resold for over $200,000.00 earlier this year. | |||
:1 Spider-Man director Sam Raimi, and his producing partner Joshua Donen, will develop a miniseries based on Terry Goodkind’s bestselling “Sword of Truth” series. Production will begin within a year, with Wizard’s First Rule, the first book in the series. | |||
] 03:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:2 Goodkind, who has previously turned down film offers, was struck by Raimi and Donen’s idea for a miniseries. | |||
:3 “It’s a dream come true to work with someone of such remarkable vision, talent and ability,” Goodkind said in a statement released today. “Given Sam’s sincere love for these stories and his determination to only make great films, this mini series will be a watershed event.” | |||
:4 Phantom, the latest in the ten-book series, was released last week, with the 11th set for release in early 2007. The ninth book, Chainfire, was released in January 2005 and has sold more than 235,000 in hardcover and mass-market editions, as tracked by Nielsen BookScan. | |||
:5 Raimi is currently wrapping Spider-Man 3, with Tobey Maguire and Kirsten Dunst. | |||
----- | |||
http://www.comingsoon.net/news/tvnews.php?id=15750 | |||
:A "Spider-Man" franchise director Sam Raimi and his producing partner Joshua Donen have optioned rights for Terry Goodkind's bestselling "Sword of Truth" adventure series, published by Tor Books. | |||
:B Having been approached by Hollywood a number of times over the past decade, Goodkind was never convinced that his 400,000 word novels could be successfully compressed into worthwhile feature films. In a meeting at the author's home, the renowned director and producer instead conceived of a groundbreaking mini-series. Within two hours Goodkind was sold on the concept and negotiations commenced. Ten months later the deal was finally concluded. | |||
:C "It's a dream come true to work with someone of such remarkable vision, talent, and ability," Goodkind said. "Given Sam's sincere love for these stories and his determination to only make great films, this mini-series will be a watershed event." | |||
:D All of Goodkind's novels have been international bestsellers. Translated into 20 foreign languages, there are over 10 million copies in print. The "Sword of Truth" series began with "Wizard's First Rule" in 1994. The 10th novel in the series, "Phantom," is on sale now. The 11th and final volume is under contract and will be published in 2008. | |||
:E Raimi and Donen hope to begin production of the opening mini-series, "Wizard's First Rule," within the next year, to be followed by ensuing volumes of the epic novels. The development process will begin while Raimi completes Spider-Man 3. | |||
:1 and A are the same information. | |||
:That's good enough for me but having a link to the sale, a independant site/gallery/etc or anything else along those lines will go a long way. I'm not inclined to believe that there is an elborate hoax set up to decieve people into thinking his is a commissioned artist when he is not. Without a thiry party reference though the wording should read "Terry Goodkind has claimed" or words to that effect. Still, I see no problem including it in the article. ] 03:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:2 and B are the same information. | |||
:3 and C are the same quote | |||
:4 and D are different information about book publishing. Of the 2, the coming soon is the better info for the TG page as it's got information about the number of languages and copies in print. | |||
:5 and E are the same information. | |||
'''There is nothing in the book standard link that is not in the coming soon link in greater detail.''' There is no reason to have this link in the external links. Can anyone see any reason to include the book standard link, based on this comparison of information? ] 16:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
== Symbolism == | |||
How wonderful! You see, as there is differing information on each link there is no problem keeping them both. As I've stated in previous statements, there is not problem in any wikipedia policy in having these. I'm sure what with all your heavy lifting and exhastive brutual editing of so many pages in need of help, this is a minor and frivilous item. So again as I've stated while some material may well be ooverlaping, they do haev different material and that does not violate any policy. ] 17:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
There was a section on symbolism that has not been touched since 2005. Archived. | |||
] 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Read more closely, particularly the first sentence of the conclusion of my last reply, now in '''bold'''. Allow me to re-state. ''There is nothing in the bookstandard link that is not in the comingsoon link in '''greater detail'''''. The information may be ''worded'' differently, but the ''content'' is the same. Just because it does not ''directly'' violate a policy does not mean it should be on the page. I am asking as plainly as I can: you say "they do haev different material" - what material is different? Please tell me what material you see covered in the bookstandard link that is not covered in the comingsoon link that is in any way germane to the article. If you don't tell me, I'm going to remove the link again because it serves no purpose on the page. Please show me the relevant information that means the bookstandard link should stay up. ] 19:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
:First off I think all this should go to the SoT pages and not the TG page. Secondly there is no doubt that the books are infused with Objectivist symbolism and TG has stated as much in interviews and online chat (has he not?) plus it's just in your face obvious. Just make sure it get sourced and it shouldn't be a problem to include it as it is relevant to the subject. ] 03:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Let me try a different way - how does the link enhance the article? How does having the book standard link add value to the article beyond the coming soon link? If the bookstandard link were removed, what would readers miss out on that is not captured in the coming soon link? ] 19:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
== Previous careers == | |||
==Fantasy Author Category== | |||
Some individuals discussed previous careers, such as hypnotist and formula one driver. | |||
CLAIMS NOT TO BE A FANTASY AUTHOR THEREFOR ETHE ATG SHOULD BE REMOVED!!!! ] 20:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
:While Goodkind considers himself to be "more of a novelist" he also acknowledges that he writes fantasy. The issue is largely semantics but nothing is harmed by including him in the "fantasy author" category as he is both percived (and marketed) as a fantasy author and has said he is as much. I will be reinserting the category and would appreciate it if you would no longer unilateraly remove it. ] 20:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
Mystar was going to provide proof and references to this, which will add to the page if they are available. | |||
] 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
::okay fine. ] 21:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
== Philosophical Views! == | |||
Terry Goodkind puts a lot of objectivist philosophy in his books. Some find it preachy. Goodkind's response on an on-line chat was: | |||
While Goodkind's work is more than the general "fantasy" than is typically seen in those genera, it is nevertheless sole as a fantasy novel. Having the term "Epic Fantasy" is in no way demeaning nor detrimental to Goodkind or how he and his fans perceive his Novels. While it is true they are heralded as, philosophical works and having deep romantic themes, they are more than simple "Epic Fantasy", yet they are sold as such, and therefore should be listed in the category they are marketed. As Neofreak says Terry does state that he is not writing fantasy, he also states that he is using the term in a generalization, and goes further to state that he does acknowledge that his works are fantasy. That does not negate the fact that the deeper elements are there and remain. ] 03:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
Goodkind explained to those present who had criticized his writing style with such harsh criticism of the base philosophy and the moral and ethical values contained within the series, saying that they were not fans, and that they hated that his novels existed. He also claimed "their goal is not to enjoy life, but to destroy that which is good... These people hate what is good because it is good." We have seen the full effect and thuth of this fact by the attacks against the values with in the series, against the moral and ethicial set the characters uphold. | |||
Mystar contested this, there was some back and forth, the debate is ongoing and as of August 28th, 2006, was reflected in the article itself below. Stuff from June and before was archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
:OKAY i get it shut up!!! ] 04:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
== Photo == | |||
I think something needs to be added here, as the wiki is used as a review or explanation for the theme of the book. Perhaps editting may be performed. In any case, it is pretty significant that there has been a conflict between staple readers of the sword of truth series and Terry Goodkind, due to a misunderstanding of the entire theme of the series. ] 03:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
There was discussion whether the photo in the article was recent. Mystar stated that it was, and provided several other pictures to put up if people wanted. There were no takers, and the photo seen as of August 28th, 2006 was the same one that has been up for a while. The other photos are below. | |||
:Any material about that conflict would need to be have reliable and significant sources, as one of Misplaced Pages's core policies prevents the addition of unpublished material, or ]. The material you have added to the article, while it may or may not be accurate, lacks such sources, and reads like an individual's commentary rather than an encyclopedic overview of existing opinion. Unless someone can produce references to support your analysis (which, given how thoroughly such topics have been hashed over in the past, seems unlikely), it will have to be removed from the article. If the conflict between Goodkind and some of his readers is in fact significant, it will have been mentioned by some ]. ] 03:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
] 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
::I agree with the reversion. I had previously removed a section that stood out as especially unfounded, but it does appear that the edits after that revision were original research. Sorry, Jasonred. ] 20:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC) | |||
==FYI: ] == | |||
] | |||
] (]) 06:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
] | |||
] | |||
== Politics / Influence == | |||
There was also a brief discussion circa April 2006 about TG editorializing. Archived. | |||
] 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I'm not a regular contributor to Misplaced Pages, but imo there should be some mention - beyond simply noting his admiration for Rand and her perspective - of his hardline right-wing politics and it's appearance in his novels. There are very strong right-wing themes and perspectives woven into his major series. It's blatant, unrelenting, and i don't understand why, if there is to be a mention of his political perspective at all, that it is not more clearly noted. He is rabid in his support for the American right-wing, and it features strongly in his 'The Sword of Truth' series. <br /> Also, any 'Influences' section is dramatically lacking if it does not mention Goodkind's borderline plagiarism of Robert Jordan's 'Wheel of Time' series. I don't have the time or energy to provide examples or go into any greater detail, but perhaps if someone else shares my opinion / observation they could elaborate here. <br />The guy is a rip-off artist, and an ideological hardliner that seeds his 'fantasy' novels with right-wing propaganda. Imo, the 'Influences' section, if nothing else, should note this more clearly. Thanks for reading, and regards to all. <br /> Mike <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
A discussion of cleaning up the discussion page. I'm doing so, archived. | |||
] 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
Being a person who reads many different authors and who occasionally ready wikipedia to learn a little about the authors I read, I notice that when an author writes fiction that is politically conservative, some person complains. Not so when a writer uses his pen/voice to espouse liberal views. Just an interesting point. Makes me wonder. Why? Is the perception that people are going to jump to a political view they didn't hold before, because they read a book? I couldn't care less what Mr. Goodkind's political views are. No more do I care how the writers of the other books on my reading list voted in the last election. I read to learn as well as be intertained and that means reading fiction and non-fiction from writers with political and philosophical views that span the gamut of viewpoints. Goodkind bothers me no more than does King, Jordan, Perry, Funke, Ross, Perry or Asimov. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
== Verifiability of "online chat" == | |||
:I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "right-wing". Terry Goodkind is a self-proclaimed objectivist, and these ideals come across quite clearly in his novels, but there's a big difference between Objectivism and Conservatism, which I assume is what you mean. As far as comparisons to Robert Jordan's work, yes, there are many similarities, but to my knowledge there hasn't been any scholarly comparisons between the two series. And that is the point I'm working towards: You're perfectly entitled to your opinions, but without some ], then your opinions are just ]. | |||
There was a discussion of the verifiability and usefulness of on-line chat as a source of information for Misplaced Pages. Originally this was an discussion which ended up being a series of heated remarks and discussion outside of the original topic. All posts dated to before August. Archived. | |||
:Feel free to add to the influences section, but be aware that any contributions that don't have objective, third party citations will be removed. - ] (]) 18:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
] 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
::One problem is there is no indication in the article of the darker themes of the Goodkind's books, including repetitive themes about torture and rape. --] (]) 14:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::] must have already been published by a ]. If you are aware of such material, ], or else direct other editors to it on this talk page. But just because you or I notice it in the reading of his works, or it appears on someones blog or fansite, that is not suitable for inclusion in the article. -- ] 15:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::: TheRedPenOfDoom, a warning about the explicit nature of Goodkind's Sword of Truth books is very appropriate. I thought I had a strong stomach until I stumbled across the vile imagery in Goodkind's books. With a mere pen, Goodkind's artful implications have succeeded in portraying vile savagery in a way that no movie or television program has ever achieved. This constitutes the exceptional character to Goodkind's work that distinguishes it from that of the other more-moderate fantasy authors. I doubt I would let a child of mine read the Goodkind books until s/he was in their late teens. ] (]) 10:36, 21 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::: Many of these include blogs and forums, however many if not most reviews (even if favourable) include a warning about the graphic nature of the novels. For example: http://www.sfreviews.net/wizardrule.html, "The violence gets a bit excessive after a certain point.", http://www.allreaders.com/Topics/info_533.asp?BSID=159891806 ""Sword of Truth is a poorly written, highly derivative story about a forest guide who is given the titular weapon. It has an excessive, prolonged section of torture. Redundant writing and a lack of originality plague this book." Rebecca Davis, Resident Scholar ", "Style Accounts of torture and death? - very explicit references to deaths and torture", http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2009/jul/10/british-fantasy-awards-michael-moorcock "even the progressively crazier, more polemic, frankly dreadful Terry Goodkind. I ploughed through 12-book series – I like to know the ending – and yes, I have read the bizarro chicken sequence from Soul of the Fire.".] (]) 18:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
:It is undeniably true that Goodkind weaves his political beliefs into his Sword of Truth books. Indeed, ] is little more than a fantasised version of ]'s ] (along with a bit of ]). However, would anyone be complaining if Goodkind was feeding us the usual left-wing rhetoric that most authors wantonly ram down our throats? ] (]) 08:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
Propaganda is incorrect wording. He is not advertising his political views. He is expressing them. He is not doing so to instigate violence or hatred or to sway a large population to his favor which is what propaganda is for. He has every right to say what ever he wants. It is his book. Keep in mind fiction writing is a work of art no different than a painting. If you don't like the color of the sky in a painting you don't tell the artist to redo it you simply don't buy it. If you don't like them then you can choose not to read them. As far as plagerizing goes I must laugh at this because I just went to the article for Paolini's Eragon. I only read the first book and had to stop because it was so irksome to read something from a kid who plagerized every single book he read. You can actually see the clear matches between things in his book and any other fantasy book. In fact I haven't read a fantasy book that he hasnt ripped off yet. To bad somebody couldn't write an article about children becoming authors before they actually know anything about life. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
== Alienus and Mystar == | |||
:Well, I think people complain about Goodkind's politics because, unlike Stephen King or any of the others mentioned he pretty much rubs his readers' nose in it, with his strawmen arguments, endless political speaches and less than fair criticism at the left wing. Shades of gray do not exist in Goodkind's world -if you take his bizarre morals into account that is. | |||
A long dialogue between these two posters. Archived. | |||
:Besides, and most importantly: wether you're a left winger or not the ideas he defends in his books are pretty questionable to say the least. Mr. Goodkind has stated in interviews that Richard Rahl is (obviously) his alter ego and responds to certain situations the same way he would respond. So in other words Goodkind advocates: killing people who preach left wing ideals (and keeping their ears as trophies), killing unarmed pacifists who object to war, attacking other nation's civilians and kicking nasty children in the jaw(!) | |||
] 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
:I really don't see why people ask why his political views are an issue. I personally think they're downright sickening. | |||
<br /> | |||
: | |||
:Can somebody please tell me what's not downright fascist about all this? | |||
:His less than fantastic writing skills (subtility was never his strongest point), plot holes, numerous BDSM scenes (gratuitous torture and rape), arrogant statement that he "doesn't write fantasy" (yeah right!), and let's say the 'remarkable similiarities' in his books to Robert Jordan's makes it all even less bearable for me (as, fo the unfain compairsions to Eragon, keep in mind that unlike the boy who wrote Eragon, Goodkind is actually a grown man, ripping off another author for 11 books instead of just one). | |||
: - Joe Dharma. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
::I'm sort of at a loss here, the above comments are so mindbogglingly ironic...the words that spring to mind are "hamfisted propaganda" and "lies". "Subtility" (sic) obviously isn't their strong suit either. I'm only partway through the series, so I'm not sure which specific incidents the above poster twisted and misrepresented to fit their point, but the "nasty" girl kept a "playmate" (read:Officially Designated Physical, Mental and Verbal Abuse Victim) and was being groomed, and indeed aspired to be a mass murderer. And unless I'm mistaken the "pacifists" in question will turn out to be a violent bloodthirsty mob incited by the REAL Fascists, and resemble the angry villagers from Frankenstein, rather than something Gandhi would recognize as in line with pacifism. I'm sure there is room for a critique of his work, but based on facts, not on convenient exaggerations, lies, and what appears to be hatred of the man himself. ] (]) 11:15, 4 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
: I see the mention of his Randian views are in the lede but never in to main article. The lede should summarise the article. Also, is there any support for the fact that these views are so notable that they belong in the lede? It seems to be simply a piece of trivia about him. ] (]) 07:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC) | |||
==Regarding Mystar's Edits== | |||
: OK, I somehow missed the section in the main article about Rand. But my point about its notability for the lede still stands. ] (]) 07:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC) | |||
== External links modified == | |||
A dialogue between Runch, Mystar and Werthead dating July 2006 initially about archiving rather than deleting the talk page. Soon moved past this point. | |||
] 17:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
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==Recent Edits== | |||
{{sourcecheck|checked=false}} | |||
THis section was not changed since July, so I moved it into the archive. | |||
] 20:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 16:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC) | |||
==Minor Quibble== | |||
A discussion of TG work with marine and wildlife paintings that was never replied to, by Runch. Archived. | |||
] 17:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
== POV section dispute == | |||
==Fantasy Author or Novelist?== | |||
"Reception" section is in violation of Misplaced Pages Neutral point of view policy. | |||
Took out an initial section that discussed why TG could be categorized as a fantasy author. Archived. Left in some other bits of continuing comment. | |||
] 04:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
Section does not represent "proportionately" | |||
==More Edits by Mystar== | |||
Mystar, aka IP 68.188.220.8, the recent edits made to the Terry Goodkind article were not vandalism. You can't revert them just because you didn't like the fact that the editor changed what you had initially written. In fact, reverting the edits in such a way IS considered vandalism. | |||
Look Mystar, I still firmly believe that you want to be a productive member of the Misplaced Pages community, but it is obvious by your edit history that you just don't know how to go about doing so. I've looked at your contributions - and roughly 90% or more of them involve edits to Terry Goodkind and this talk page. If you're ever going to learn Misplaced Pages protocol and etiquette, I urge you to branch out. Look at other articles. Read help pages. Contribute and be involved in more than one topic. For starters, I'd suggest looking at some of these pages: | |||
• Misplaced Pages:Simplified Ruleset - A simple rule book for new editors | |||
• Misplaced Pages:Vandalism - Defines what is and what is not vandalism | |||
• Help:Reverting - Lets you know when to use the revert function | |||
• Misplaced Pages:Staying cool when the editing gets hot - Tips on how to discuss issues on talk pages | |||
• Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles - PLEASE read this help page. It is very pertinent to you. | |||
In addition, you may want to look at some articles on authors that have reached featured article status. Although Terry Goodkind is unique, looking at some of these articles may help you understand the direction in which we want to move for the article on Goodkind. Examples: Isaac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, J. R. R. Tolkien, and Douglas Adams, to name a few. | |||
I hope you actually do take the time to look into some (or all) of the pages I have pointed out to you. They may help you become less possessive of this particular page on Goodkind, and I'm sure expanding your horizons will help you become a better Wikipedian. | |||
Sincerely, Runch 03:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
Most of the edit in question that mystar reverted was indeed not vandalism, but it did add a few rather dubious things in the article which I have now attempted to correct. Firstly, there is the "essential sense of the word " thing - it is already inside a direct quote from TG, I see no reason for additional quote marks, nor do I understand what the "sic" is doing there. Secondly, the "though how this differs from any other novel is uncertain" or something to that extent; I don't think sarcastic commentary belongs in a Misplaced Pages article. If we are to discuss the credibility of Goodkind's statements, which I do not think is the intention of this article anyway, then surely we can find a more elegant way than just adding comments of that kind inbetween the quotations. | |||
I would assume that with those edits made, mystar has no further reason to revert as the rest of that edit seemed good. | |||
Paul Willocx 13:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
Yes, I agree, thanks for your revisions. - Runch 14:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
sic was there because he said 'word' when it refers to two words - fantasy author. | |||
198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
Section does not "Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views." | |||
Would all of you kindly stop referring to me as "Wilcox"? Thank you. Paul Willocx 18:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Mediation== | |||
The edit warring on this page really has gotten to the point where it needs to be dealt with. I'd like to draw everyone's attention to: Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes. Steps one and two (discussion and trying to "wait out the war") have proved ineffective, so at this point I'm going to make a request for informal mediation. If that proves ineffective in stopping the problems, I'm going to make a request for a formal mediation session. Should both of those steps prove ineffective, I will request arbitration, although I hope it need not come to that. | |||
Regardless of the way, I hope to finally put an end to this conflict. - Runch 17:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
Sounds reasonable.198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
As an outside observer and someone who has not invested any real time editing the TG article it would seem you are already at the point of needing moderation. Mystar is admittedly acting as Terry Goodkind's mouth piece and has taken the position of doing what ever it takes to change this article into what he and TG want it to be, breaking several rules along the way despite repeated warnings from some very patient editors. This is not TG's article, it is everybody's artilce about TG. NeoFreak 01:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I'll give the informal mediators a couple of days to see if they can help, but yes, I do forsee myself having to make a formal request for moderation or arbitration in the near future. - Runch 03:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I would think an immediate stop to all edits and a request for an admin to temp lock the article would be best. While no one is 100% happy with the article it won't kill anybody to leave it as is for a day or two until the mediation can begin. NeoFreak 21:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
==References== | |||
I made some additions to the article, I think they really help out with the lingering NPOV issues. Anyway, we'll see if the edits stand up to the test of time. | |||
What I need help with is the references. For some reasons, they are appearing with the wrong numbers and some are appearing twice in the References section at the bottom of the article. I can't figure out what's wrong with them, maybe someone else can see what I did wrong? (The weirdest part is that they look perfectly fine in the preview, but in the actual save they go crazy. Go figure...) - Runch 19:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
They look fine to me; the numbers match the sources used, and I don't see any appearing twice at the bottom. Where specifically do you see trouble? Brendan Moody 19:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
Strange, maybe it's a problem with my browser or my cache. For example, the first reference appears as an instead of a . But as long as it looks right to everyone else, I don't have any problem with it. If anyone else sees it appearing strangely, then I'll go back to worrying about it. Thanks though, Runch 19:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Archive== | |||
] added an archive box and removed a bunch of today's discussion but did not move it to an archive page. I've reverted that change and archived less recent material that doesn't seem relevant to the current disputes. If any user thinks some of the archived material should stay on this page, I invite them to restore it. The page is still pretty long, but given the ongoing issues I don't think further archiving is desirable. ] 19:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Official Moderation== | |||
Mystar, I repeat NeoFreak's question: Since informal moderation will most certainly not bring an end to this conflict, are you willing to take part in an offical mediation session? The decision is yours, but if you refuse to take part in an official mediation (as is your right), then I will make a request for arbitration. The arbitration is decided by the Misplaced Pages Arbitration Committee, and their decision is final. This could include, but is not limited to, making changes to the article that neither of us wants, or having one or more Misplaced Pages editors banned from editing for an unspecified period of time. | |||
I will expect your reply within 48 hours, and I will make no changed to the TG article until then. If I do not hear back from you, I will assume you are unwilling to participate, and I will request arbitration. - Runch 20:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I second this. I really hope that Mystar is willing to engage in some mature dialouge about this through a mediation and it doesn't have to go to the level of an arbitration. If it does though I will support that as well as there will be no other choice. NeoFreak 20:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I too would like to see Mystar, and also 198.96.2.93, participate in mediation. There's been too much edit warring in the article, and we need to have a civil discussion about various issues and come to a consensus so that a stable, mutually agreeable article will be produced. Brendan Moody 20:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I am not here to pull strings or whatever it is called. I am just describing what I have read in this talk page. Mystar has been backed into a corner when he is right, and I have wiki-standard's to back that claim. As new to wiki as I am ( I just found the tilda signature thing today) I can't believe I am the one to cite this: Biographies of living persons. | |||
Jimmy Wales has said: | |||
"I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." | |||
Without knowing it, Mystar has been adhering to this policy, and the Biographies of living persons standard. I would like to draw you're attention to the fact that in the face of unsourced, or poorly sourced, negative edits, the subject of the article or someone editing on their behalf has the weight when the matter is brought up. Now, here is the problem, there are not very many acceptable, professional grade sources to base a biographical page on this living person as he maintains a certain level of privacy. | |||
"Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist..." Many of the edits not started by Mystar, which he has reverted, have the quality of trying to sensationalize mistaken and error information using mis-quotes and half-truths that are not viable tender in an encyclopedic environment. If you get you're facts right, Mystar will not challenge it. Remember, this is an article about a living person and as such you need to tread very cautiously when editing it because the subject of the article DOES have weight against what is said about them. While it discourages subjects from contributing, it does encourage subjects to correct erronious information and remove libel or insulting commentation that is not properly sourced. In this, Mystar has done nothing wrong, and has been doing things by the book. | |||
I suggest everyone review Biographies of living persons and make sure you have reviewed it, know it and understand it before you make a single post more. You can be sure that Official Moderation will go into this. | |||
Omnilord 01:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I'm very excited that you are persuing a constructive discussion Omnilord! This is exactly what belongs here. To start out I am familiar with the guidlines and rules dictating biographical articles on living persons. The message Jimbo was trying to convey is that all speculation and POV entires are to be deleted and not just tagged with a "". The three principl rules to govern any bio artilce (and really most others for that matter) are | |||
• Verifiability | |||
• Neutral point of view | |||
• No original research | |||
as is clearly labeled at the beginning of the referenced article. This is the point that the other editors and myself have been trying to drive home. Editor's opinions of Goodkind, his work or his stance on any issue are not allowed on Misplaced Pages. The refrencing of an outside or third party's opinion if it is relavent and citable is allowed. | |||
This current situation we find ourselves is in fact covered in Biographies of living persons and is repeated for ease of review here: | |||
"Well-founded complaints about biographical articles from their subjects arrive daily in the form of e-mails to the Misplaced Pages contact address, phone calls to the Foundation headquarters and to Jimbo Wales, and via postal mail. These people are justifiably upset when they find inaccurate or distorted articles, and the successful resolution of such complaints is a touchy matter requiring ongoing involvement of OTRS volunteers and paid staff." | |||
"Frequently the problem is compounded when the subject attempts to edit their own article to remove problematic content. Since such people may not be regular Wikipedians, they are unaware of our policies, and are often accused of vandalism or revert warring when they are in fact trying to edit in good faith." | |||
It further covers that all biogrpahies of living persons should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Concerning material that is defamitory to a living person (of which I have seen none) is covered quite simply as | |||
"Unverified material that could be construed as critical, negative or harmful in articles about living persons should be removed immediately, and should not be moved to the talk page. The same applies to sections dealing with living persons in other articles. Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia." | |||
This covers material such as "Many people think that Terry Goodkind likes to eat babies" or "Terry Goodkind is rumored to smell bad". This does not cover critacal review of his works. This also does not cover a group's opinion about him if it can be cited and is relavent as covered in Reliable Sources. | |||
Please see my comments below and review main page the edit history, again. NeoFreak 01:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I would be interested in participating in official moderation for this entry. 198.96.2.93 13:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I just wanted to notify everyone that I have filed a request for help from an official moderator, you can all view the request here. Everyone who was previously involved in discussion on this page and explicitly expressed interest in being involved in such moderation has been notified on their individual talk pages - please be sure to sign the request within the next 7 days. Also, read the "Issues to be mediated" part of the request - if you have additional issues, add them in the "Additional issues to be mediated" section. | |||
I want to make sure that everyone knows that moderation is a slow process, it will take time. Really though, all it is is having an additional cool head (belonging to a neutral party) involved in the discussion about how to improve the article. Specifically, we'll be addressing the issues listed in the "Issues to be mediated" part of the request. | |||
On a side note, I'd like to thank everyone for their efforts. I think that in the last 24 hours or so, everyone has been acting in a much more civilized and constructive manner. I like the fact that we're now placing proposed changes to the article at the bottom of this discussion page. Let's not forget that the moderator will only be here to help us - we can still try and write this article collectively on our own. | |||
We're finally getting somewhere, people, let's keep it up! - Runch 16:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Temporary stop to all edits== | |||
This aritlce is again on the verge of an edit/revert war and that helps nobody. I would ask that all parties please stop editing until an offical mediation or arbitration can be completed and a consensus can be reached on this article. NeoFreak 20:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I'd like to remind everyone to keep in mind the need for civility in a stressful discussion like this one. I've seen recent comments from both "sides" that have been insensitive or rude. Regardless of how you feel those who disagree with you have behaved, please be as polite as possible and avoid further escalation. Thanks. Brendan Moody 17:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I've touched up some wording to reduce the level of bias as well as correct some factual errors in the bio section, namely that all his books are bestsellers. Having examined a number of archives, most especially the NYT bestseller archive provided by Hawes(now listed in references), I've found that all but two are on the list, and thus corrected the statement to appear as such. -Kedlav | |||
I don't really have a problem with the neutrality or tone of this article in a siginficant way any more. If no one else objects or still has an issue than I say we remove the POV template and resume some editing. The few edits that have been done in the past 24 hours are good edits and if that kind of thing continues I don't see any more big problems here. It's really looking alot better. NeoFreak 22:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
Sounds good to me. - Runch 22:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Notice regarding solicited participation== | |||
It has recently come to my attention that Mystar has been soliciting other Goodkind fans to participate in the discussion here. It is an official policy of Misplaced Pages that such advertising is considered highly inappropriate, and that participation only to further an individual agenda (rather than to improve the whole encyclopedia) is strongly discouraged. For more information on the topic, please see this page, which details the nature of and reasons for the relevant policy. This warning applies equally to anyone who comes here from Westeros.org or any other message board containing anti-Goodkind sentiment. This dispute has gotten large enough as it is, and the best way to resolve it is through participation from more experienced Wikipedians. Thank you for your understanding. Brendan Moody 03:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
in keeping with your advise/suggestion I have altered some wording to assure all parties involved that this is not happening. If anyone were to look about Misplaced Pages has been a bone of contention for ages. Asking for input and advise is not the same thing as asking fan's to participate. I expressly ask for no partipication, any kind of posting or any kind of action from any Goodkind fan's....only input. mystarMystar 04:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
Given the circumstances, I'm not sure it's such a bad thing, though I hope Omnilord will also contribute to other pages, the SoT-related ones if nothing else... actually, I just looked at his contribs, and it seems he has already done so in the past, and he had an account long before he interfered in the debate here. You might be talking about other people, who haven't posted here (yet), I suppose. Paul Willocx 09:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I've been on and off revising the articles related to terry goodkind since february. In fact all are in my watchlist. I've not been as active as maybe I should have been but other matters have been foremost in my attention, and Mystar has had (and still does have) my full confidence that he would handle matters adequately. I have also tried to just look in at least once every seven days just to be sure there hasn't been any new vandalism. Even though I am still adjusting to my new job and schedule, I will still try to make contributions toward this, I don't want to see anyone screwing up the facts when it comes to this particular subject matter. Omnilord 21:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
== Since we have the edit stop, a list of proposed changes == | |||
We can always make a list here of suggested changes that can be implemented after we end the edit stop, if there should be consensus (by which I also mean mystar and Omnilord) about them. I would suggest that people add their suggested changes here instead of in the article itself, but it seems the only people changing the article now are anons or users not involved in the talk page, so it seems unlikely that they'd read this. Oh well. | |||
So far I see two proposed changes: firstly, under "Influence", the sentence "Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, reached number one on the New York Times Best Seller list, a feat which none of his previous novels had yet to achieve" is incorrect, so it is suggested to put "had achieved" instead. Secondly, anon sees POV in the same sentence, and wants to remove the words "feat" and "achieve", to be replaced by something like "a first for the author". ] 10:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
All of Mr. Goodkind's books, with the exceptions of Stone of Tears and Wizard's First Rule have appeared on the New York Times Bestseller List..<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.hawes.com/pastlist.htm|title=Hawes' Archive of New York Times Bestsellers from 1994-2005}}</ref> -- proposed by Kedlav ] 10:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
:A minor, non-controversial edit: Add the link ] to the anthology ''Legends''. - ] 17:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
Arbor makes another suggestion for that grammatical error: "Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, is his first to have reached number one" etc. Arbor also suggests cutting the lines starting with "Although Goodkind" and ending on "is a little extreme", and I for one am inclined to agree. ] 21:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
===Facts vs. Opinions=== | |||
In all this discussion, it's hard to try and decipher what other people are thinking. Therefore, I'd like to post how I think we should deal with the mixture of facts and opinions that will undoubtedly comprise the "final draft" so to speak of the article. | |||
Part 1 - Facts: All pertinent facts should be included. For example, the Biography section should be nothing but facts. (ie. Goodkind has worked as a carpenter, a violinmaker, and a restorer of rare and exotic artifacts and antiques). Mostly facts are data. However, let me point out that some quotations can be facts as well. If Mr. Goodkind makes the statement "I am an Objectivist", then that is a fact - he, after all, would be the ultimate authority on the matter of his own beliefs. | |||
Sounds fine to me, as long as it is just facts, see huge post below, "My beefs" | |||
Part 2 - Opinions: Opinions are a crucial part of critical commentary, whether they are Mr. Goodkind's opinions or anyone else's. For example, let's say we have the quote by Goodkind stating that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy". This is an opinion, but it is important to the article. A critical commentary would then play out like this (just an example mind you): | |||
• Mr. Goodkind stated that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy" | |||
• Joe Reviewer 1 also believes that his novels have changed the face of fantasy | |||
• Joe Reviewer cites the heavy focus on philosophy and Objectivism as his reasons | |||
• Bill Reviewer 2 agrees with Joe Reviewer, but for different reasons | |||
• Bill Reviewer cites hordes of fans saying that the series is "wicked sweet" | |||
• John Reviewer 3 disagrees with the statement | |||
• John Reviewer 3 cites similarities to other fantasy novels, and previous novels with objectivist ties | |||
And that would be all we'd include. There wouldn't be any conclusions (so this would be different from your typical high school English essay), because conclusions would merely be our (the editors) opinions and would also fall under the category of original research. | |||
Anyway, that's how I was hoping to proceed with the article. Comments? Questions? - Runch 16:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
As long as there can be opinions to balance out TG's. Right now it is a lot of his, and a slow, hard-fought addition of other opinions. I think it's gradually improving though, which is good. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I now have a userid, I'll see if I can figure out updating it for arbitration and whatnot. Formerly 198.96.2.93, WLU 18:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I think one of the best ways to clear up POV on this article is to include a "Quotes" section and move review and "Themes" sections to the Sword of Truth page. This is one way to seperate critical review of his works without giving the impression that negative views of his works are directed against his person. Thoughts? NeoFreak 12:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
Good point. Paul Willocx 13:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I agree that moving any discussion of the Sword of Truth to the SoT page would make sense, but it won't change that there will still be the issues I pointed out. What I'm really trying to gage is, how do we deal with pertinent discussions (Read:opinions!) about the SoT? Is there a place for them at all in an encyclopedia, regardless of who the opinions belong to? - Runch 15:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
==My Beefs (shortened)== | |||
Anyone wants the longer version, it's archived. | |||
1) TG is best known as a novelist, the link that stated he was best known as a realistic painter does not actually say this. | |||
2) All novels have been bestsellers is currently a work in progress | |||
3) not super relevant | |||
4) Phantom is a best seller - needs a references other than a weblog | |||
5) TG's books are fantasy, in my opinion and I'm backed up by amazon, but there is debate | |||
6) As 5 pretty much | |||
7) As 5 again | |||
8) As 5 | |||
9) There's a quote about him writing to inspire | |||
2) Yeah, we do actually. But there's an edit stop. 4) Phantom did make #1, and if that isn't a criterium for being a bestseller, what is? 6) I don't know, I read the Lynn Flewelling interview with him, and I thought he put it in a much better and less offensive way there. 8) Yeah, don't think we'd be doing Mr Goodkind a service by leaving it there. | |||
Paul Willocx 21:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
1) Terry's careers prior to becoming an author are most assuredly private matters that will not have citeable sources other than the information Terry has shared with us through his website. He wishes that the details of where he was working and such remain private, but he has shared the information that he has taken up the roles of a carpenter, violin maker, rare artifacts restoration specialist, etc. When it comes to private matters, the only source is the subject of the biography. | |||
If you can't cite it then you can't include it. Unless there is a viewable citable statement it is word of mouth and WP:OR NeoFreak | |||
6) The online chat in question was not just a chat between people, but was a Q&A session with the author via IRC. Not only was this an official function jointly of terrygoodkind.com and terrygoodkind.net, it was a rare opportunity for many fans from around the world to be able to communicate as close to in person as possible at the time because Terry was not doing a signing tour. | |||
Now, you said it is absurb to have that chat quote and that you think it should be removed. You have two people who are willing to back you up on that: Mystar and myself. That part of the article has been a source of contention for months because it is not only a misquote and taken out of context, it was placed there specifically with the intention of causing trouble by individuals who were diliberately vandalizing the article. It has been forced to remain there, intact, dispite edit after edit by mystar, myself, and a number of others who are no longer participating on Misplaced Pages. | |||
Did he say it? Is is citable? Is it relavent to the subject? If the answer to these three questions is yes, and I believe it is, then it can be included. NeoFreak | |||
7) What is the point? The citation is linked to a dynamically generated page that changes frequently and irregularly the content it displays. As far as I can tell, it is just a recommended reading list. I don't think Amazon.com is useful unless you are directly linking to a specific, static page because of the nature of the website itself. | |||
If the source is not reliabe then, yes, it needs to go. NeoFreak | |||
8 & 9) They are direct quotes from the subject of the essay about what his motivations and beliefs of his series have been. While these are opinions, they are the subjects opinions, and as such can be included in this article, but would never be allowable on The Sword of Truth article. | |||
Omnilord 01:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
As it is citable and relevent to the SoT series than it belongs on the SoT page. NeoFreak 01:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
== FOR MODERATION REVIEW == | |||
okay, since people insist on editing, I think we should go ahead with agreeable grammar, spelling, and very basic edits that have been proposed so far, and just create a list of reversion points here for moderation to review. | |||
No new information should be added and nothing should be removed until moderation however. | |||
*] - the preserved revision at time of stopped editing. | |||
:I've already said this a half dozen times in a half dozen places. The edit stop was requested by me and I am not an admin. This is not an enforceable stop and if other editors wish to be rude about then you can't revert their edits on these grounds alone. On a side note though I thought the anon's last edit was good as the "rather extreme" comment was out of line and POV. ] 03:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
::I'd have to agree with Neofreak about edits in general - we need not revert everything, only significant changes that involve article themes and POV statements. And I also though the removal of the "rather extreme" comment was justified, it is POV (and I'm the one who put that in in the first place! But I've seen the error of my ways, so to speak, since then, so I'd like to retract that edit if possible.) - ] 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
I edited a few POV positions. Can we start from there? What we have now is nuteral and unbiased. That should satisfy everyone] 05:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
::Well on another note your edits to the SoT page are looking really good.] 22:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Well, it certainly is, but there might have been parts in what you cut that didn't have to go. Guess we can carefully restart from how it is now, though... ] 09:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
==WLU replies to comments== | |||
Here are replies to PW's comments. | |||
>"Best known" doesn't necessarily mean he was famous for them... though I guess rephrasing it won't do any harm. | |||
-The link just says he painted wildlife and marine, as part of a list of other jobs he did. Let's let the page show the same thing. | |||
>We actually do seem to have a source, but it hasn't been put into the article due to the edit stop. The source says all books but the first two made it onto the NYT's list. | |||
-I checked the NYT bestsellers list for a couple months. Chainfire was on it in 2005, here's the link - http://www.hawes.com/2005/0502.htm, I recommend splicing it into the page. If someone (i.e. whoever thinks it is important that this be on the page) wants to do this for all the books, all the power to them, I don't want to make the time. | |||
>how does it contradict it? All but two books made it onto the NYT's list, but only Phantom topped it. Not sure what defines a "bestseller", but I'd say making it onto the #1 list on the NYT isn't bad. | |||
-Good point. The definition should be obvious from the text - "Numerous of the books have made it onto the NYT bsl, and Phantom reached #1 as of xxxx" seems like the most accurate way of putting it. | |||
>I don't know, I was a great deal more happy with this quote after I read the Lynn Flewelling interview with Goodkind, in which he phrases it differently | |||
So there's a link to the blog or interview, but I was thinking that all the quotations could be put in wikiquotes, - no context to judge, just TG's words. Very objective, I think (ha!). Take them off the page but put in a link to wikiquotes. | |||
Here are replies to Omnilord's comments | |||
>Terry's careers prior to becoming an author are most assuredly private matters that will not have citeable sources other than the information Terry has shared with us through his website. He wishes that the details of where he was working and such remain private, but he has shared the information that he <b>has</b> taken up the roles of a carpenter, violin maker, rare artifacts restoration specialist, etc. When it comes to private matters, the only source <b>is</b> the subject of the biography. | |||
-Yeah, my beef isn't with that per se, it's the 'best known for', which I've seen no evidence for, just a list of jobs. Put marine-wildlife artist in that list, not 'best as'. One of many, not the most important. The source given doesn't say anything about 'best of', so unless TG decides to edit his own page to reflect this, we don't have a source, and at that point it becomes pretty much unusable because it is TG's judgement about his own work. We need something outside of terrygoodkind.net, .org, .whatever, we need something independent. | |||
>Now, you said it is absurb to have that chat quote and that you think it should be removed. You have two people who are willing to back you up on that: Mystar and myself. That part of the article has been a source of contention for months because it is not only a misquote and taken out of context, it was placed there specifically with the intention of causing trouble by individuals who were diliberately vandalizing the article. It has been forced to remain there, intact, dispite edit after edit by mystar, myself, and a number of others who are no longer participating on Misplaced Pages. | |||
-Take it out, put it in wikiquotes | |||
>What is the point? The citation is linked to a dynamically generated page that changes frequently and irregularly the content it displays. As far as I can tell, it is just a recommended reading list. I don't think Amazon.com is useful unless you are directly linking to a specific, static page because of the nature of the website itself. | |||
-The amazon link shows that other people, notably book vendors, consider his books fantasy. TG says it isn't, if we put that in, I think we can put in people who think he is. I think amazon is a great source for this because they are neutral, and sell to the public - they market the books to people who buy fantasy. They aren't putting them in the philosophy section, because philosophers would read them and freak out. Fantasy readers do not 'cause they've got swords, magic, dragons, no computers, etc. I can't really think of a way of getting around the changing nature of Amazon, but something less know but more stable could work. Other on-line vendors who's pages don't flip all the time? The page I originally linked to categorized the book and it was in SF/F>F>High Fantasy and several other categories that started with fantasy. | |||
>8 & 9) They are direct quotes from the subject of the essay about what his motivations and beliefs of his series have been. While these are opinions, they are the subjects opinions, and as such can be included in <i>this</i> article, but would never be allowable on ] article. | |||
-I think changed the face of fantasy and his goals could both be in wikiquotes with a link, perhaps to a statement "TG feels very strongly about his works and defended them in interviews and during on-line chats" or essays, I don't know the original source. It's got an encyclopedic summary, it's got a link to quotes, but it doesn't have the page-biasing impact that the words themselves do. It says more about him than it does his opinions on his work. I think they would be valuable on a "What TG thinks of his own novels" page or such the like, but not raw in the text. Plus, I think that might be considered original research or such the like. Maybe not. I'd like the idea of a summary, but not so much the actual quotes in an already quote-heavy novel. Comparing his entry to Steven Erikson's (pardon my point of reference), SE is very short, has no quotes, but a very brief summary of his own opinion of what he's writing. I think it's comparable. Reference Terry Pratchett as well, also GRRM - pretty short on the author, but lots of links to their works. | |||
Replies to mystar | |||
<WLU said> What makes it official? Do you have a reference from TOR? Since the other publishers do not send the numbers to TOR, we can't rely on TOR for a ceiling figure, but they'll definitley give a floor figure, or an accurate one for the US and Canada. | |||
<Mystar said>Well, as a fatter of mact, I do! I also have material from Goodkind, BUT, as I stated earlier, I am suggesting that we use the figure we have listed on .net & .com, as Terry is not going to make his royalty numbers public, and with good reason! | |||
-If you have them, provide them please, and I'll stop picking at it. .net and .com are not proper sources. We need something from the company. I'd even be OK with the agent as long as we said it was from the agent, and that there are other figures (and links to both, and that the link that wasn't his agent, wasn't to terrygoodkind.net/.org). Also note that linking the page to the wiki page for TOR doesn't work - it'd have to be external, to a page on the TOR website that said "TG has sold more than 20 million" (but that would contradict the figure from the agent I think). Linking to the TOR wiki doesn't work because people can edit the page - no verifiable, and because even if it said on the page, 'sold 20 mill copies of TG books', that would need a reference. In which case, we put that original reference on the TG page. This is standard academic referencing, this is how it is done in universities, government, schools, any document that has to be relied on for veracity, and as far as I know, wiki requires it as well. | |||
Also, I just looked at what's on the page right now, and the 20 million link doesn't seem to go anywhere. If it does, it seems to go back to his private webpage again, which I still have objections to as stated in "art". | |||
>Secondly WLU, I am going to ask politely that you take a less hostile tone with me. I stated the facts as they are. Call Tor if you wish, call Harper Collins UK and they will tell you not every publisher reports to them. If you don't like that, it is not my problem. I have source material that you are not privy to. So me I am free to make public, some I'm asked not to. I do think however that my well-known association with Goodkind' gives my points creditability. If you disagree, that's not my problem. | |||
-I think I am being at most, curt. Not hostile. I'm trying to keep my points brief, and just include the things that I think are relevant to the question. Calling TOR and HCUK won't help, we need webpages. If you have source material, give it. If you can't, it is not referenced. I think your association with TG detracts from your credibility, it detracts from your neutrality and makes your actions very close to having TG hiimself editing the page, which there are recommendations about. Just is there is reason to distrust what I say too. I could easily say I called TOR and they said his sales figures were abysmal, no-one can check this except me, and someone else who calls TOR, and has the same problem of verification, which is why we need a 3rd party website. I'll try to moderate my tone while retaining brevity. I'd like to think I'm using the same brevity with other users, but I could be wrong. | |||
>Ok, I see a pattern here already. WLU, if all you are going to do is to argue and attempt to shoot anything down, I have a problem with you. I already am of the mind you just jumped in to be a fly in the ointment on this situation. We have no knowledge of you other than popping up and jumping on this bandwagon, and as I stated it is already looking like you are here just to decry any information I offer. | |||
-The peer review process works to improve the quality of submissions. I'm not shooting you down, I'm requesting valuable information that you say | |||
you have, and will do nothing but enhance the article. Please reply to my points, not to the brevity of my association with the userid WLU. The talk page is designed for discussion to improve the article itself. | |||
>Goodkind being a well-known artist is a well-known fact. If you took the time to read any interviews (written, audio or otherwise), articles, Statements from Goodkind and the myriad of pictures I've posted of his works on the MB's you would not be asking that question. You will find various statements about Goodkind's work as an artist. All you have to do is to look. It is not incumbent upon me to proof out to you what we already know, just to please you. | |||
-It is incumbent on you to provide proof, not to please me but to justify what you are posting and editing. That he has produced realistic paintings I could believe. That he is well known for them, I do not. Because I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere except here. The works themselves are not sufficient. Is there a different page we could talk this out on? I don't want to soak up more of TG discussion page. I think I have included an anonymous e-mail in my signup, so you could even talk to me via that address. If not, I might have my own page on wiki. The penguins link you provided is again to tg.net, is there a link to the gallery's website? A history of showings? A review by a newspaper? See NeoFreak's replies to your postings, I agree and would be repeating further if I discussed more. | |||
>This "is" after all a page about Goodkind and what "he" is presenting. Not what you want his to present, but these are "his" books and as he has placed some specific situations and spend some amount of time crafting his work to show symbolism, that it becomes nessary that that fact be included as it would at that point be "encyclopedic" in nature. That being Goodkind is using it to make a point. It is not as you are trying to espouse "an inherently personal thing". It is in fact a part of what he is providing for the reader. Nothing | |||
It is a page about TG, not what he is presenting. If you want to, start a page on his symbolism. I won't comment on that, I would only edit for grammar and spelling. Possibly references, but that would also probably be considered original research. Symbolism is a characteristic of personal reality, see ] for more on this (if I managed to work the link). | |||
>I am going to warn you NEO for your "accusatory manor" and attempting to make everything I say out to be an attack. I've made no attacks. I pointed out facts and personal attacks on me. ], was infact making several Negitive and biased edits. I corrected them | |||
I disagree with you Mystar. I have found your posts to be very accusatory. I don't know if an arbitration will settle this or not, but I hope so. I am trying to improve as an editor, note that I have not insulted you, I have not called you names or accused you of anything except bias, which can also be said of me, and I've admitted it. I'm ignoring most of your posts because I don't really find them germane. | |||
In summary - how about we put in general comments about what TG has said in the past, with counter-examples, link the general statements to wikiquotes where they can be retained in resplendent glory, someone who is motivated can find a specific link from each book to a NYT bestsellers list, a modification to his 'previous jobs' section to remove noteworthy re: paintings. Mystar can start a page about the symbolism and work with people who have read all the books in the series, as well as the major works of Ayn Rand, and show the objectivism links there. Everything subject to revision and adequate citation. I'll start with Chainfire. | |||
Comments? Please, if there is a better way to edit that's neater and more readable, please let me know. I'm doing this in a word processor and pasting it back into Talk:TG edit pages 'cause it's the only way I can do it coherently. If Mystar wants to discuss what should be a proper standard of proof with me on my own wikipage, I'll be happy to, or if I can figure out the e-mail thing. Apologies for length! | |||
Also, I archived a previous posting that was quite long, on fantasy author versus novelist. | |||
Sorry, I forgot to sign in before adding my edits. | |||
] 18:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Wow. I'm not really following alot of that post, I'll have to reread it when I have some more time. About your purposed "counter-examples": this is not a place for a point, counter-point of TG's views. This is a biographical article that should contain the relavent material about him, not a place to argue about his views. This kind of thing is not only out of place but it can bring arguably justifiable complaints of POV. Leave the (as always relavent and citable) critical review of his works where it belongs: on those work's articles. ] 04:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
== Fantasy or not: a better quote (imho) == | |||
In that Lynn Flewelling interview, there is the following paragraph: | |||
"I've always said fantasy is sort of 'stealth philosophy'," he explained. "It allows you to say things that sound very dramatic and get away with it. If you had characters in modern fiction say the same things as they're driving down the street in an Oldsmobile they'd sound ludicrous! Fantasy allows you bend the world and the situation to more clearly focus on the moral aspects of what's happening. In fantasy you can distill life down to the essence of your story." | |||
Which, to me, sounds like a good explanation of Mr Goodkind's stance on the "fantasy or not" thing: he seems to say that it is fantasy, but that he uses fantasy as a tool to make his philosophy clearer, because in fantasy the situations are a bit more extreme, things are a bit more primitive, etc. So, what does everyone think of adding (part of) that paragraph? Given the controversy, I won't do it unless I get a go ahead from both WLU and Mystar, otherwise we're back to where we started. ] 08:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
I still think adding stuff to wikiquotes is a good way of addressing the quotation. If we take out everything about him saying he doesn't write fantasy and leave in that, I'd be happy. If there's anything in there saying explicitly that he <b>does not<b> write fantasy, I really think that it deserves a comment | |||
As I've said all along I do not think WLU has any thing to add. He remains annon, and refuses to divulge his real identity, thus making anything he does fully suspect. Reading his contrib’s is like reading a blank book. We see his/her interest is in negative content and condemning everything positive about Goodkind. SO you'll excuse me if I do not have any faith in either asking for or using input from WLU. Perhaps IF WLU were to divulge his user name at ASOIAF it would go a ways into WLU's creditability. | |||
:Please reply to my comments, not my identity. How does me handing out my real name help make my arguments any more justified? Stop making it about me, make it about the page. At this point if I handed out my real identity, I'm kinda scared that you'd use it to fill my inbox with junk or something. What do you think about using wikiquotes? Would you like to find which books were NYT bestsellers and put in the links? | |||
] 18:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
"At this point if I handed out my real identity, I'm kinda scared that you'd use it to fill my inbox with junk or something". It IS about the page, however hiding behind the anonymity make your input suspect. And I'm not one, and you or anyone has never seen any such immature action from me... You will never find me doing anything even remotely close to that. I'm a professional I have scruples and ethics. The fact that you would even suggest something like that smacks of self-recrimination. Is that something you would do, you your friends? I sincerely hope not. I would like to think better of you than that. Perhaps if you were honest and upfront about your identity, rather than hiding, an open and honest respect could be established. I'm always more than willing to offer people a chance to prove themselves. Hiding your identity (when we both know you know I would know you) is again cause for suspicion and makes your opinion/input suspect. | |||
At anyrate, wikiquotes may be the answer, as long as we can keep out the NPOV | |||
] 01:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
As for your last message, I fail to see how adding Lynn Flewelling on a Goodkind page is of any merit? I guess I'm confused. Either Goodkind can make a comment upon his works or he cannot. Adding content from someone else who is saying the same thing, as Goodkind is redundant and unnecessary. | |||
The problem is simple. Goodkind states "I don't write ], in the ''"general"'' sense of the word". I find that very clear and free of any ambiguity. Goodkind further goes on to define his stance by adding, " I write stories that uplift and inspire...." I write about heroes...". Thus defining his stance. Yes his stories have all the elements "of" fantasy, and are set in the fantasy genera, but they are more then your typical epic fantasy story. | |||
So along comes people who's only desire is to smear Goodkind and take him down a peg for his stance, by editing his page. These so called genera purest do not have any desire to allow Goodkind any kind of voice about how he attributes his works. Personally I feel let people read his pages with out the section Fantasy -----. We have the Epic Fantasy tag on his page and that should suffice. If we start adding what you're suggesting, then they will vandalize the page by attempting to add NPOV and personal rant/blogs decrying Goodkind as this or that in their own opinion. I refuse to allow that to happen. | |||
:Lynn Fleming (the interview) is useless a source for anything except more thoughts about what TG thinks. It can't be used to justify stuff on the page except quotes, and what he thinks. So it could be on the page for some things, but not for stuff like NYT bestsellers, and previous occupations. That's just poor referencing. It's not about smearing TG, it's about credible sources. His novels doesn't have elements of fantasy, they are fantasy novels with strong themes and some blatant exposition of objectivist philosophy. | |||
:] 18:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
Careful WLU, you’re showing your bias very clearly here, and are coming very close to slander, most certainly you smack of negative POV with that statement. We are all mature adults here (assumption on my part), please leave your personal negative opinion of Goodkind out of this and please also have some respect for the rest of us and the author to whom we are devoting a great deal of time to. It is not about what you think or feel his work is or isn't, it is about fact. | |||
And what is the problem with what Goodkind thinks? It IS after all about Goodkind and his work, what he thins has merit. | |||
"His novels doesn't have elements of fantasy, they are fantasy novels with strong themes and some blatant exposition of objectivist philosophy". | |||
Goodkind's Novels have elements of fantasy in them. They are set in a fictional world; they are also a thesis on objectivist philosophy. Even IF you don't wish to admit it, that is a fact. Your "opinion" is not what counts. That has been the problem with this page all along. | |||
As it was stated earlier, some one who has suddenly burst onto the world scene like Goodkind has may not have a world of citable sources, other than interviews. SO WHAT? | |||
That in no way eliminates the fact that it is true and is germane to the page. | |||
] 01:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
I would love to see a section (as others have) with a direct quote or two from Goodkind. It is after all a page ABOUT "Goodkind". It should have his opinion of his work. The problem with that is only people who despise him and want any readers to be tainted. Last night I compiled several sections from two message boards where these people are saying this very thing. They even go as far as to request that people come in and alter Goodkinds' pages to reflect NPOV, so that people will be turned off before they read or formulate an opinion. I also have a direct post showing that one person was identified for such action and banned for it, yet this person was asked to do so by members of this MB. I highly suspect one of them is in fact WLU, given WLU's stance so far. | |||
At any rate, I am for building Goodkind's page constructively and in a manor that does not smear or demoralize his works. | |||
Just my humble opinion. ] 14:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:I find that in light of all the progress made here in the past week your accusations against WLU being a sockpuppet with intent to vadalize very discouraging. Unless you have some real tangible proof I suggest you keep these suspicions to yourself. Still I'm with Mystar 100% on the Flewelling quote. Goodkind has had plenty to say on the subject, he doesn't need someone else to put words in his mouth. This is why I've suggested a "Quote" section on the TG page as the man has alot to say about alot of things and there is plenty of precedence on other bio pages for a section like that. Plus this allows his points to be made directly and in his own words without the opinions or POV of editors to bleed through in the "translation" of the material. Again, most of the "debate" or review of his works are, again, best put on the pages devoted to those works and not a biographical article. ] 14:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:It appears both of you have misunderstood me and not bothered to look at the interview in question - which is one of Ms. Flewelling *interviewing* Terry Goodkind. Obviously the quote is from Mr Goodkind himself, otherwise I wouldn't be suggesting it. I agree with Neo as far as WLU is concerned. ] 15:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
::AH! I feel really dumb. I'm sorry, I've been up all night. I don't think the entire interview needs to be in there, maybe just a slice with a external link. A more in depth coverage of the interview might be appropriate on the SoT page. ] 15:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
ack! So sorry Paul, my sincere apologies, I didn't take the hint to look it up and read it...sorry. I'll not make that mistake twice. I now think I'm in agreement with you on this point | |||
] 01:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
Does anyone have anything to say about the wikiquotes links? I think that is an excellent way of TG speaking for himself (literally) about his work without filling up half the page with long quotations. "TG has very strong opinions about his own work (link to wikiquotes)" and the quotes have their own section dealing with his own opinions on his own works. There's no need to interpret then, people can go there on their own and read it unaltered. | |||
Mystar - have something to say about me rather than my edits or ideas? Let's use my talk page. | |||
] 18:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
I'm going to try to reduce the length of the talk page by taking out everything that is superfluous. If anyone argues with specific sections, please replace them individually rather than reverting, unless I totally muck it up. the page is something like 125k. I'll try to archive stuff in an organized fashion. | |||
] 23:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
Uhm, it would depend upon what you find "superfluous". What you may think inessential may well be what others or I need to see to respond properly. May I suggest we hold off for a bit? That is until more work and a consensus established? | |||
] 01:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
Everything is on the archive page. If there's something you feel is essential, you can put it back. The talk page is immensely long, it's hard to get any sense out of it. People can track recent changes by comparing versions. I apologize to anyone who thinks I took out anything currently vital - the content changes so quickly that anything dating back more than a week seems pretty much obsolete. I'll try to make my posts shorter from now on in. | |||
] 02:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
==addition of an info writer box== | |||
Following is all the info for the box. The recent pic has been ok'd by Goodkind, and as I own the photo, I give my permssion. I've tried to figure it out, and well... I'm just not that script or code savvy. | |||
{{Infobox Writer | |||
| name = Terry Goodkind | |||
| image = [[Image:http://www.sanctuaryslight.com/mystarpics/Goodkind-book-signing-event-8-26-06-A.JPG | |||
| caption = Terry Goodkind, Aug 2006 ] | |||
| birth_date = ] | |||
| birth_place = ], ] | |||
| death_date = | |||
| death_place = | |||
| occupation = Novelist | |||
| genre = ] | |||
| movement = | |||
| magnum_opus = ''] | |||
| influences = ], ]. | |||
| influenced = | |||
| website = http://www.terrygoodkind.com/ http://www.terrygoodkind.net | |||
| footnotes = | |||
}} | |||
From the NPOV article: | |||
:The box looks nice. Thanks for allowing the use of your image; if you want it to appear in the article, you'll need to ]. I've never uploaded images myself, so I don't know too much about it, but there's a guide to the process ]. ] 18:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
"While each fact mentioned in the article might be presented fairly, the very selection (and omission) of facts can make an article biased." | |||
"Some viewpoints, although not presented as facts, can be given undue attention and space compared to others" | |||
"The text and manner of writing can insinuate that one viewpoint is more correct than another." | |||
Explanation: The current postings in the reception section are appropriate in an isolated context, but presented as such give undue weight to the criticisms against the author and his works. There are no truly positive reviews posted, and the section gives an impression that the author and series is viewed negatively overall, despite the existence of positive reviews, its presence on many fantasy best-of lists, and best seller status. I would suggest that either: | |||
:Uploaded and added the picture. It *may* get deleted if someone gets overly zealotic about it, because I wasn't sure about the ]. Short summary: GFDL means that not only does the owner allow the picture to be on Misplaced Pages, but he also allows anyone else to take the image and use it, even for commercial purposes (though, as I understand it, credit to the original maker is still obligatory). I now uploaded it as a picture which has been permitted by its owner to appear on Misplaced Pages, and given the link to this talk page, I hope that will be sufficient. ] 20:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
A. Additional positive review material be added to more accurately reflect the reception of the author and his works, or | |||
B. The section be removed in its entirety. | |||
Apologies if this is written wrong, not a wiki editor, did my best though. cheers <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:34, 20 February 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:I agree. Not even a single positive review is mentioned here. I came here after reading one of his books, which I considered to be topnotch fantasy and the article lead me to believe that he is widely considered a bad author. I've realized from other sources that there are actually many people who share my views. | |||
Thanx Paul. Terry will give me any written permission needed, should anyone want it. At this point his verbal to me should suffice. | |||
I expect fully that some anti-fan will do just that. However looking over several fan pages they all have them, so singling this one out would more than smack of vandalism | |||
] 22:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Also a section titled "Reception" sounds weird to me in an article about an author. Naturally each of his works will have different reception. Also, no other authors which I looked up in Misplaced Pages has this section. | |||
:I will wait a month, and if no other comments are added here, I'll delete the section. | |||
==Wikiquotes page== | |||
:] (]) 00:57, 31 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
== Facebook as a source == | |||
I created a wikiquotes page for Terry Goodkind, there's a couple there now that I found on his website and the Flemming interview, here's the link. | |||
Someone added his official Facebook as a source. Is it reliable enough, or no? ] (]) 01:13, 18 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
http://en.wikiquote.org/Terry_goodkind | |||
:At the time, it was the only available source and, as you pointed out, is his official account. TOR has since confirmed, and I'll be adding that shortly. ] (]) 01:46, 18 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
== Critisms == | |||
I prefered the earlier image that was on the webpage, the new one is pretty small. | |||
] 22:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
No one has acknowledged the critisms of Mr. GoodKind. Is it because everyone here is trying to make him seem positive? No offense, but a ''lot'' of people have critized him, and he steals his ideas from others. (this has been proven and stated by reputable sources.) This section is important. | |||
Well is that all you ever do is to complaine?, I'll get a better one then.] 04:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 15:26, 28 February 2021 (UTC) |
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Book standard link
I've looked through the two articles in reference to the miniseries, and the only bit of info I can find that is in the "Book standard" link and not the "Comingsoon.net" is the following info:
- "Phantom, the latest in the ten-book series, was released last week, with the 11th set for release in early 2007. The ninth book, Chainfire, was released in January 2005 and has sold more than 235,000 in hardcover and mass-market editions, as tracked by Nielsen BookScan."
Aside from that, the information that I can see is essentially identical, and the comingsoon.net article actually has more detail than the Book standard. The only info in the above quote is about specific books, and though it could be on those pages I don't see a need for the info in this one. WP:EL nutshell is Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are meritable, accessible and appropriate to the article, which was why I removed it in the first place (i.e. if the info is already there, why a second link?). If there is any further info that I've missed in the link, it's better added to the page and the Book standard tacked on as a reference, as per If the site or page to which you want to link includes information that is not yet a part of the article, consider using it as a source first, also from WP:EL.
WLU 18:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I am not picking a fight by removing the link. As I said above - WP:EL recommends keeping external links to a minimum and including the information as a reference if possible. Since there is already a reference for this information on the page it is unnecessary duplication. Further, since the info is essentially identical, it probably came from the same press release. There's no point having it twice that I can see - what is the justification for including duplicate information on the page? WLU 12:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- And I quote "Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are merit able, accessible and appropriate to the article:
I see merit. You do not. It is another source and has more info. It is not a problem that it remains. It violates no policy; it is not anything that you read. Seeing as how in your own words you cannot stand Goodkind or his works...that leaves only one other possablity? So again I ask that you stop nit picking to start a fight. It is not the link itself (Seeing as how its been there for a good long time...), but rather me is the only reason you want to remove it. As you have said to others you'll agree with them, but not mystar.
- I see many other precedence of similar information being provided on other pages as external links, so again, having the links is not a violation, and is in fact allowable. You have made countless statements since your starting here, you hate Goodkind and wish to smear his name (and mine), so it is more than abundantly clear that the only reason you do edit Goodkind's pages is to try and nit pick and start a fight. As much as you abhor Goodkind one can easily make that leap< As we can indeed see it is not a voilation at all Mystar 13:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is another source with the same information, coming from the same press release - it's even got the same quote. What is the extra info and merit that the link you keep reverting has? I couldn't find it, nothing that relates to this page. A short statement of this 'important information' rather than another accusation of bad faith would shut me up. And if it is adding extra info, it should be a reference, not an external link. And it is the 'minimum' of the EL policy that I'm pointing to - having an extra link that says the same thing as one of the references is not a minimum, it is superfluous. It may be meritalbe, accessible and appropriate, but it is duplication. This link adds nothing to the reader that is not already there. The reason I removed it last week was because of this edit, which brought my attention to the external links section. Notice that I did not try to remove the interview information because it adds to the page something that couldn't be in a reference but does provide something valuable. It is an appropriate external link.
- If you see precedents in other pages, perhaps those links should be removed. Which pages did you see it on, I'll have a look and let you know if I think it should be removed for the same reason, or explain why I think it's valuable to keep. WLU 14:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
And let you terrorize those pages? I think not. As I said it does nto say it is forbiden or cannot stay.Mystar 18:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC) (moved from here Thats odd, I see where I clearly stated it was due to "content" and that it is allowable under the very policy that you listed. Again I ask you to stop trying to create drama where none exists. WP:EL clearly states that it is "ok" but to be careful not to add too much, as I addressed on the talk page. You seem to be under the impression that only your opinion has any validity. Please try not to engage in a witch hunt Mystar 02:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
- You have not addressed what content within the link is useful to the article. From what I can see, there is nothing in the external link which adds to the article. There is no added content and added benefit to having the link in the page, it is just taking up memory. You say it adds content to the article, but I can't see what it is adding. And if it is useful content, it should be integrated as a reference. The reason I think it should be removed is because I can't see where it could go as a reference, barring a second reference for the SoT being turned into a series. The policy says meritable links. Because the information is already covered in the 'press release' reference, the external link has no merit, it's just duplication. WLU 14:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
External link
Here is a breakdown of the verbatim material from the coming soon link and the book standard link:
http://www.bookstandard.com/bookstandard/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002878399
- 1 Spider-Man director Sam Raimi, and his producing partner Joshua Donen, will develop a miniseries based on Terry Goodkind’s bestselling “Sword of Truth” series. Production will begin within a year, with Wizard’s First Rule, the first book in the series.
- 2 Goodkind, who has previously turned down film offers, was struck by Raimi and Donen’s idea for a miniseries.
- 3 “It’s a dream come true to work with someone of such remarkable vision, talent and ability,” Goodkind said in a statement released today. “Given Sam’s sincere love for these stories and his determination to only make great films, this mini series will be a watershed event.”
- 4 Phantom, the latest in the ten-book series, was released last week, with the 11th set for release in early 2007. The ninth book, Chainfire, was released in January 2005 and has sold more than 235,000 in hardcover and mass-market editions, as tracked by Nielsen BookScan.
- 5 Raimi is currently wrapping Spider-Man 3, with Tobey Maguire and Kirsten Dunst.
http://www.comingsoon.net/news/tvnews.php?id=15750
- A "Spider-Man" franchise director Sam Raimi and his producing partner Joshua Donen have optioned rights for Terry Goodkind's bestselling "Sword of Truth" adventure series, published by Tor Books.
- B Having been approached by Hollywood a number of times over the past decade, Goodkind was never convinced that his 400,000 word novels could be successfully compressed into worthwhile feature films. In a meeting at the author's home, the renowned director and producer instead conceived of a groundbreaking mini-series. Within two hours Goodkind was sold on the concept and negotiations commenced. Ten months later the deal was finally concluded.
- C "It's a dream come true to work with someone of such remarkable vision, talent, and ability," Goodkind said. "Given Sam's sincere love for these stories and his determination to only make great films, this mini-series will be a watershed event."
- D All of Goodkind's novels have been international bestsellers. Translated into 20 foreign languages, there are over 10 million copies in print. The "Sword of Truth" series began with "Wizard's First Rule" in 1994. The 10th novel in the series, "Phantom," is on sale now. The 11th and final volume is under contract and will be published in 2008.
- E Raimi and Donen hope to begin production of the opening mini-series, "Wizard's First Rule," within the next year, to be followed by ensuing volumes of the epic novels. The development process will begin while Raimi completes Spider-Man 3.
- 1 and A are the same information.
- 2 and B are the same information.
- 3 and C are the same quote
- 4 and D are different information about book publishing. Of the 2, the coming soon is the better info for the TG page as it's got information about the number of languages and copies in print.
- 5 and E are the same information.
There is nothing in the book standard link that is not in the coming soon link in greater detail. There is no reason to have this link in the external links. Can anyone see any reason to include the book standard link, based on this comparison of information? WLU 16:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
How wonderful! You see, as there is differing information on each link there is no problem keeping them both. As I've stated in previous statements, there is not problem in any wikipedia policy in having these. I'm sure what with all your heavy lifting and exhastive brutual editing of so many pages in need of help, this is a minor and frivilous item. So again as I've stated while some material may well be ooverlaping, they do haev different material and that does not violate any policy. Mystar 17:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Read more closely, particularly the first sentence of the conclusion of my last reply, now in bold. Allow me to re-state. There is nothing in the bookstandard link that is not in the comingsoon link in greater detail. The information may be worded differently, but the content is the same. Just because it does not directly violate a policy does not mean it should be on the page. I am asking as plainly as I can: you say "they do haev different material" - what material is different? Please tell me what material you see covered in the bookstandard link that is not covered in the comingsoon link that is in any way germane to the article. If you don't tell me, I'm going to remove the link again because it serves no purpose on the page. Please show me the relevant information that means the bookstandard link should stay up. WLU 19:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Let me try a different way - how does the link enhance the article? How does having the book standard link add value to the article beyond the coming soon link? If the bookstandard link were removed, what would readers miss out on that is not captured in the coming soon link? WLU 19:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Fantasy Author Category
GOODKIND CLAIMS NOT TO BE A FANTASY AUTHOR THEREFOR ETHE ATG SHOULD BE REMOVED!!!! Smith Jones 20:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- While Goodkind considers himself to be "more of a novelist" he also acknowledges that he writes fantasy. The issue is largely semantics but nothing is harmed by including him in the "fantasy author" category as he is both percived (and marketed) as a fantasy author and has said he is as much. I will be reinserting the category and would appreciate it if you would no longer unilateraly remove it. NeoFreak 20:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- okay fine. Smith Jones 21:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
While Goodkind's work is more than the general "fantasy" than is typically seen in those genera, it is nevertheless sole as a fantasy novel. Having the term "Epic Fantasy" is in no way demeaning nor detrimental to Goodkind or how he and his fans perceive his Novels. While it is true they are heralded as, philosophical works and having deep romantic themes, they are more than simple "Epic Fantasy", yet they are sold as such, and therefore should be listed in the category they are marketed. As Neofreak says Terry does state that he is not writing fantasy, he also states that he is using the term in a generalization, and goes further to state that he does acknowledge that his works are fantasy. That does not negate the fact that the deeper elements are there and remain. Mystar 03:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
- OKAY i get it shut up!!! Smith Jones 04:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I think something needs to be added here, as the wiki is used as a review or explanation for the theme of the book. Perhaps editting may be performed. In any case, it is pretty significant that there has been a conflict between staple readers of the sword of truth series and Terry Goodkind, due to a misunderstanding of the entire theme of the series. Jasonred 03:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
- Any material about that conflict would need to be have reliable and significant sources, as one of Misplaced Pages's core policies prevents the addition of unpublished material, or original research. The material you have added to the article, while it may or may not be accurate, lacks such sources, and reads like an individual's commentary rather than an encyclopedic overview of existing opinion. Unless someone can produce references to support your analysis (which, given how thoroughly such topics have been hashed over in the past, seems unlikely), it will have to be removed from the article. If the conflict between Goodkind and some of his readers is in fact significant, it will have been mentioned by some reliable source. Brendan Moody 03:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with the reversion. I had previously removed a section that stood out as especially unfounded, but it does appear that the edits after that revision were original research. Sorry, Jasonred. Zenithan 20:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
FYI: Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Creatures_in_The_Sword_of_Truth
Ikip (talk) 06:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Politics / Influence
I'm not a regular contributor to Misplaced Pages, but imo there should be some mention - beyond simply noting his admiration for Rand and her perspective - of his hardline right-wing politics and it's appearance in his novels. There are very strong right-wing themes and perspectives woven into his major series. It's blatant, unrelenting, and i don't understand why, if there is to be a mention of his political perspective at all, that it is not more clearly noted. He is rabid in his support for the American right-wing, and it features strongly in his 'The Sword of Truth' series.
Also, any 'Influences' section is dramatically lacking if it does not mention Goodkind's borderline plagiarism of Robert Jordan's 'Wheel of Time' series. I don't have the time or energy to provide examples or go into any greater detail, but perhaps if someone else shares my opinion / observation they could elaborate here.
The guy is a rip-off artist, and an ideological hardliner that seeds his 'fantasy' novels with right-wing propaganda. Imo, the 'Influences' section, if nothing else, should note this more clearly. Thanks for reading, and regards to all.
Mike —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.160.103 (talk) 00:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Being a person who reads many different authors and who occasionally ready wikipedia to learn a little about the authors I read, I notice that when an author writes fiction that is politically conservative, some person complains. Not so when a writer uses his pen/voice to espouse liberal views. Just an interesting point. Makes me wonder. Why? Is the perception that people are going to jump to a political view they didn't hold before, because they read a book? I couldn't care less what Mr. Goodkind's political views are. No more do I care how the writers of the other books on my reading list voted in the last election. I read to learn as well as be intertained and that means reading fiction and non-fiction from writers with political and philosophical views that span the gamut of viewpoints. Goodkind bothers me no more than does King, Jordan, Perry, Funke, Ross, Perry or Asimov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.179.15 (talk) 20:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "right-wing". Terry Goodkind is a self-proclaimed objectivist, and these ideals come across quite clearly in his novels, but there's a big difference between Objectivism and Conservatism, which I assume is what you mean. As far as comparisons to Robert Jordan's work, yes, there are many similarities, but to my knowledge there hasn't been any scholarly comparisons between the two series. And that is the point I'm working towards: You're perfectly entitled to your opinions, but without some references or reliable sources, then your opinions are just original research.
- Feel free to add to the influences section, but be aware that any contributions that don't have objective, third party citations will be removed. - Runch (talk) 18:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
- One problem is there is no indication in the article of the darker themes of the Goodkind's books, including repetitive themes about torture and rape. --Silentbob7843920 (talk) 14:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
- All such analysis in an article must have already been published by a reliable source. If you are aware of such material, feel free to add it to the article, or else direct other editors to it on this talk page. But just because you or I notice it in the reading of his works, or it appears on someones blog or fansite, that is not suitable for inclusion in the article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 15:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
- TheRedPenOfDoom, a warning about the explicit nature of Goodkind's Sword of Truth books is very appropriate. I thought I had a strong stomach until I stumbled across the vile imagery in Goodkind's books. With a mere pen, Goodkind's artful implications have succeeded in portraying vile savagery in a way that no movie or television program has ever achieved. This constitutes the exceptional character to Goodkind's work that distinguishes it from that of the other more-moderate fantasy authors. I doubt I would let a child of mine read the Goodkind books until s/he was in their late teens. BlueRobe (talk) 10:36, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- Many of these include blogs and forums, however many if not most reviews (even if favourable) include a warning about the graphic nature of the novels. For example: http://www.sfreviews.net/wizardrule.html, "The violence gets a bit excessive after a certain point.", http://www.allreaders.com/Topics/info_533.asp?BSID=159891806 ""Sword of Truth is a poorly written, highly derivative story about a forest guide who is given the titular weapon. It has an excessive, prolonged section of torture. Redundant writing and a lack of originality plague this book." Rebecca Davis, Resident Scholar ", "Style Accounts of torture and death? - very explicit references to deaths and torture", http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2009/jul/10/british-fantasy-awards-michael-moorcock "even the progressively crazier, more polemic, frankly dreadful Terry Goodkind. I ploughed through 12-book series – I like to know the ending – and yes, I have read the bizarro chicken sequence from Soul of the Fire.".Silentbob7843920 (talk) 18:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- All such analysis in an article must have already been published by a reliable source. If you are aware of such material, feel free to add it to the article, or else direct other editors to it on this talk page. But just because you or I notice it in the reading of his works, or it appears on someones blog or fansite, that is not suitable for inclusion in the article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 15:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
- One problem is there is no indication in the article of the darker themes of the Goodkind's books, including repetitive themes about torture and rape. --Silentbob7843920 (talk) 14:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
- It is undeniably true that Goodkind weaves his political beliefs into his Sword of Truth books. Indeed, Faith of the Fallen is little more than a fantasised version of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged (along with a bit of The Fountainhead). However, would anyone be complaining if Goodkind was feeding us the usual left-wing rhetoric that most authors wantonly ram down our throats? BlueRobe (talk) 08:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Propaganda is incorrect wording. He is not advertising his political views. He is expressing them. He is not doing so to instigate violence or hatred or to sway a large population to his favor which is what propaganda is for. He has every right to say what ever he wants. It is his book. Keep in mind fiction writing is a work of art no different than a painting. If you don't like the color of the sky in a painting you don't tell the artist to redo it you simply don't buy it. If you don't like them then you can choose not to read them. As far as plagerizing goes I must laugh at this because I just went to the article for Paolini's Eragon. I only read the first book and had to stop because it was so irksome to read something from a kid who plagerized every single book he read. You can actually see the clear matches between things in his book and any other fantasy book. In fact I haven't read a fantasy book that he hasnt ripped off yet. To bad somebody couldn't write an article about children becoming authors before they actually know anything about life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miafina (talk • contribs) 20:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I think people complain about Goodkind's politics because, unlike Stephen King or any of the others mentioned he pretty much rubs his readers' nose in it, with his strawmen arguments, endless political speaches and less than fair criticism at the left wing. Shades of gray do not exist in Goodkind's world -if you take his bizarre morals into account that is.
- Besides, and most importantly: wether you're a left winger or not the ideas he defends in his books are pretty questionable to say the least. Mr. Goodkind has stated in interviews that Richard Rahl is (obviously) his alter ego and responds to certain situations the same way he would respond. So in other words Goodkind advocates: killing people who preach left wing ideals (and keeping their ears as trophies), killing unarmed pacifists who object to war, attacking other nation's civilians and kicking nasty children in the jaw(!)
- I really don't see why people ask why his political views are an issue. I personally think they're downright sickening.
- Can somebody please tell me what's not downright fascist about all this?
- His less than fantastic writing skills (subtility was never his strongest point), plot holes, numerous BDSM scenes (gratuitous torture and rape), arrogant statement that he "doesn't write fantasy" (yeah right!), and let's say the 'remarkable similiarities' in his books to Robert Jordan's makes it all even less bearable for me (as, fo the unfain compairsions to Eragon, keep in mind that unlike the boy who wrote Eragon, Goodkind is actually a grown man, ripping off another author for 11 books instead of just one).
- - Joe Dharma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.164.40.243 (talk) 09:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sort of at a loss here, the above comments are so mindbogglingly ironic...the words that spring to mind are "hamfisted propaganda" and "lies". "Subtility" (sic) obviously isn't their strong suit either. I'm only partway through the series, so I'm not sure which specific incidents the above poster twisted and misrepresented to fit their point, but the "nasty" girl kept a "playmate" (read:Officially Designated Physical, Mental and Verbal Abuse Victim) and was being groomed, and indeed aspired to be a mass murderer. And unless I'm mistaken the "pacifists" in question will turn out to be a violent bloodthirsty mob incited by the REAL Fascists, and resemble the angry villagers from Frankenstein, rather than something Gandhi would recognize as in line with pacifism. I'm sure there is room for a critique of his work, but based on facts, not on convenient exaggerations, lies, and what appears to be hatred of the man himself. PreciousRoi (talk) 11:15, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- I see the mention of his Randian views are in the lede but never in to main article. The lede should summarise the article. Also, is there any support for the fact that these views are so notable that they belong in the lede? It seems to be simply a piece of trivia about him. Ashmoo (talk) 07:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- OK, I somehow missed the section in the main article about Rand. But my point about its notability for the lede still stands. Ashmoo (talk) 07:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
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POV section dispute
"Reception" section is in violation of Misplaced Pages Neutral point of view policy.
Section does not represent "proportionately"
Section does not "Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views."
From the NPOV article: "While each fact mentioned in the article might be presented fairly, the very selection (and omission) of facts can make an article biased." "Some viewpoints, although not presented as facts, can be given undue attention and space compared to others" "The text and manner of writing can insinuate that one viewpoint is more correct than another."
Explanation: The current postings in the reception section are appropriate in an isolated context, but presented as such give undue weight to the criticisms against the author and his works. There are no truly positive reviews posted, and the section gives an impression that the author and series is viewed negatively overall, despite the existence of positive reviews, its presence on many fantasy best-of lists, and best seller status. I would suggest that either: A. Additional positive review material be added to more accurately reflect the reception of the author and his works, or B. The section be removed in its entirety.
Apologies if this is written wrong, not a wiki editor, did my best though. cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.18.217.117 (talk) 05:34, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
- I agree. Not even a single positive review is mentioned here. I came here after reading one of his books, which I considered to be topnotch fantasy and the article lead me to believe that he is widely considered a bad author. I've realized from other sources that there are actually many people who share my views.
- Also a section titled "Reception" sounds weird to me in an article about an author. Naturally each of his works will have different reception. Also, no other authors which I looked up in Misplaced Pages has this section.
- I will wait a month, and if no other comments are added here, I'll delete the section.
- 88.80.249.131 (talk) 00:57, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Facebook as a source
Someone added his official Facebook as a source. Is it reliable enough, or no? MikaelaArsenault (talk) 01:13, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- At the time, it was the only available source and, as you pointed out, is his official account. TOR has since confirmed, and I'll be adding that shortly. FeralDruid (talk) 01:46, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Critisms
No one has acknowledged the critisms of Mr. GoodKind. Is it because everyone here is trying to make him seem positive? No offense, but a lot of people have critized him, and he steals his ideas from others. (this has been proven and stated by reputable sources.) This section is important. Danglerofhell (talk) 15:26, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
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