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== column/page display order ==
== Merge with {{tl|cite news}}? ==

As currently written, when given both {{para|page|2}} and {{para|column|N}}, the template renders "col N, p. 2". A couple of things about this seem odd to me. First is the order of rendering with the most specific location rendered first (column) followed by the least specific location (page). This to me is backwards. The rendering should proceed left-to-right least-specific-to-most-specific. Second, the column abbreviation should have a trailing dot "col." So, I've tweaked the sandbox. Compare:
:{{Cite newspaper The Times |section=Section Name |articlename=Article Title |day_of_week=Monday |date=3 January 1949 |page_number=2 |issue=12345 |column=N }} – live
:{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |section=Section Name |articlename=Article Title |day_of_week=Monday |date=3 January 1949 |page_number=2 |issue=12345 |column=N }} – sandbox
While I have done nothing about this yet, it also seems to me that {{para|column}} should be ignored when <s>{{para|pages}} is specified and also ignored when</s> {{para|page}} is {{em|not}} specified.


Without objection, I shall update the live template to render page-before-column.
As far as I can see, the {{tl|cite news}} template offers all of the parameters that this template does, except for day_of_week. The conversion between the two would be:
The conversion between the two seems to be:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Times template !! News template
|-
| articlename || title
|-
| author || author
|-
| section || department
|-
| day_of_week || N/A
|-
| date || date
|-
| page_number || page
|-
| page_numbers || pages
|-
| issue || issue
|-
| column || at (giving col. N, and p. N or pp. N)
|-
| ''The Times'' || newspaper=The Times
|-
| London || location=London
|}
Cite news would display the contents in a different order, e.g.:
: '''This template:''' {{Cite newspaper The Times | articlename=Title | author=Author | section=Section | day_of_week = Sunday | date=1 January 2000 | page_number=1 | page_numbers=1-2 | column=1 | issue=1}}
: '''Cite news:''' {{cite news | title=Title | newspaper=The Times | location=London | author=Author | department=Section | date=1 January 2000 | at = col. 1, p. 1, pp. 1-2 | issue=1}}


—] (]) 13:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Would it be worth turning this into a redirect to the cite news template, with the newspaper and location auto-filled? Thanks. ] (]) 18:56, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


:The column parameter does not need to be ignored when pages is used.
:I'd '''Oppose''' a merger, this is a dedicated template for ''The Times'' and should stay that way. It handily handles columns and days of the week - the latter is deprecated by some with <nowiki>{{cite news}}</nowiki>. Also, location is automatically added with this template, rather than having to add it in manually. ] (]) 19:04, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


:{{Cite newspaper The Times |section=Section Name |articlename=Article Title |day_of_week=Monday |date=3 January 1949 |page_numbers=2, 3 |issue=12345 |column=E-F, A }}
:'''Oppose'''. What Mjroots said. ''The Times'' is unique among newspapers in that for much of its history it was published in chapbook format (that is, one enormous sheet of paper folded over to create four very large "pages") so the column letter has far more significance than for other periodicals; plus, the number of significant weekly features means it's one of the few newspapers for which the day of the week an article was published is significant.&nbsp;–&nbsp;] 19:12, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


:is clear enough in its meaning, is it not? ] (])
:'''Support'''. It makes no sense to have one format for a particular newspaper that is different from that used for all other newspapers. This non-standard template should never have been created. It simply creates inconsistency and looks weird when in the same article there are references from other newspapers. We don't need day of the week or column number. If you really want to include the column number you can do so in cite news, as Mike Peel demonstrates above. -- ] (]) 19:44, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
::Point taken.
::—] (]) 10:05, 10 October 2017 (UTC)


{{re|Trappist the monk}} - could you switch the display order as proposed please? ] (]) 08:19, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
: Just to clarify / point out a few things:
:I can do that. But, before I do, in the intervening months, ] has come into being. This module is expressly intended for templates like {{tlx|cite newspaper The Times}} which sets certain parameters of another (base) template to default values but will allow these meta templates to support all of the base template's parameters without the need for extra pass-through parameters. For example, in the current live template, {{para|author}} is the only author-name parameter supported. With Module:Template wrapper, {{tld|cite newspaper The Times}} can use all of the author-name parameters supported by {{tlx|cite news}}, for example {{para|last}} / {{para|first}}:
:* I'm suggesting that it might be worth turning this into an active redirect to the other template, not deleting it in favour of cite news. By that, I mean turning this template into a call to cite news, passing the relevant parameters, and the auto-defined newspaper and location values. That way, the template benefits from the extra features of cite news.
::<code><nowiki>{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |articlename=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |first=J.H. |last=Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page_number=8 |issue=46051 |column=B }}</nowiki></code>
:* I doubt that this is the only newspaper that columns and days of the week might actually be relevant for: perhaps it would be worth getting these specifically added to cite news.
:::{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |articlename=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |first=J.H. |last=Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page_number=8 |issue=46051 |column=B }}
:* I'm not sure that this is an oppose/support situation (which is why I didn't take this to templates for discussion). Perhaps we could have a discussion about the differences rather than a !vote? I'm happy for no changes to be made, if that's what people that use this template prefer.
:I have also added <code>&amp;nbsp;</code> between col. and its value and changed the subscription indicator to use {{para|url-access}}.
: Thanks. ] (]) 20:03, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
:
:If these changes are acceptable, I will update the live template.
:—] (]) 09:28, 6 May 2018 (UTC)


== parameters that ought to be deprecated and removed ==
::I not only don't use this template, I actively disapprove of it and I would like it to be abolished. -- ] (]) 21:23, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


I think that some of the parameters used by this template should be deprecated:
::To reiterate, I would not support anything that involves merging this with {{tl|cite news}} unless and until the latter can properly handle column referencing (rather than the fudge proposed above of using the "at" field and typing "column ''foo''" into it). "Page number" on the ''Times'' pre-1850 or so is meaningless, since the "pages" are either front/back or 1–4 (depending on how that particular issue was folded). I can see a case for making the output from this template ''look'' the same as cite news, but I find the ] arguments above completely unconvincing; the reason we have {{tq|one format for a particular newspaper that is different from that used for all other newspapers}} is that the old format of the paper in question ''is'' different from that of all other newspapers, not a perverse desire to be awkward.&nbsp;–&nbsp;] 21:52, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
*{{para|page_number}} and {{para|page_numbers}} – these are too long and the underscore separator is inconsistent with the hyphen separator used in {{tlx|cite news}} (and all other cs1|2 templates) upon which {{tlx|cite newspaper The Times}} is based. Since {{diff|Template:Cite_newspaper_The_Times|741642772|738377539|this edit}} on 28 September 2016, this template has supported {{para|page}} and {{para|pages}} (the documentation, of course, has failed to mention that because, {{lang|la|mea culpa}}, I suck at documentation).
:::{{reply to|Mike Peel}} - my argument for the retention of this template as a separate one to cite news is not based on IDONTLIKEIT, unlike {{U|Alarics}} reasons for supporting your proposal. Turning this template into a redirect would have the same effect as deleting it. There are solid reasons for keeping this one separate. In some ways, this template creates more work for an editor using it, but that is balanced by it lessening work in other ways. It is said that there is an exception to every rule - this is the exception to cite news. ] (]) 07:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
*{{para|articlename}} – also too long and also inconsistent with the underlying {{tld|cite news}} which uses {{para|title}} (which became a supported parameter at the 28 September 2016 edit mentioned above)
:::: OK, so the key argument seems to be that the column and day of week parameters are needed. I've asked if they can be added to cite news over at ], and pointed back to this page for the reasons. Hope that helps! Thanks. ] (]) 08:20, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
I have tweaked the ~/sandbox to emit an error message when one (or more) of these parameters appear in a template:
:<code><nowiki>{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |articlename=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |author=J.H. Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page_number=8 |issue=46051 |column=B}}</nowiki></code>
::{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |articlename=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |author=J.H. Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page_number=8 |issue=46051 |column=B}}
Changing that to use {{para|title}} and {{para|page}} gives:
:<code><nowiki>{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |title=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |author=J.H. Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page=8 |issue=46051 |column=B}}</nowiki></code>
::{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |title=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |author=J.H. Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page=8 |issue=46051 |column=B}}
I have just begun to run a simple awb script to remove {{para|day_of_week}} from existing instances to {{tld|cite newspaper The Times}} (not a supported parameter since the 28 September 2016 edit mentioned above). It is a relatively simple matter to have the script rename {{para|page_number}}, {{para|page_numbers}}, and {{para|articlename}} at the same time. When that script has completed its task, then the live version of the template can be updated to the sandbox version. The error messages would then become live for a period as an 'educational tool' to retrain editors who use this template. After that training period is over, the deprecated-parameter error messages can go away ({{tld|cite news}} will emit error messages when {{para|page_number}}, {{para|page_numbers}}, and {{para|articlename}} are detected).


Without objections, I shall proceed.
== Authorlink ==


—] (]) 15:59, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
This template unlike every other cite template I have ever used, does not support the authorlink= field. Could it be edited to enable this please? ] (]) 21:55, 11 July 2016 (UTC)


:@]: I fully support this proposal. I came here to propose something similar, and was delighted to see that you are already on the case, with a very coherent plan. Thank you.
==Temporary tracking categories==
:Consistency of parameter names helps everyone. I encountered this exception when a batch of ~20 articles appeared in ], and my regular cleanup script converted {{para|page_number}} to {{para|page-number}}. I saved two such pages intending to check what was going on (cos I hadn't seen those params before), but got sidetracked and forgot to check. @{{u|Lotje}} kindly reverted my two edits, and left a note on my talk.
{{ping|Pigsonthewing}} - what is the purpose of these uncreated categories? The are appearing on all articles and lists that use this template. ] (]) 08:07, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
:It would be a big job to rewrite my AWB setup to accommodate the underscore params, and I am relieved not to have to do so. I will hold off running my script again until the conversion is complete. Merry Christmas! ] <small>] • (])</small> 17:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
:I support the changes to standardize parameter names among similar templates. Editors shouldn't need to relearn parameter usage each time. ] (]) 12:11, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
:: Greetings {{u|Trappist the monk}}, I hope all is well with you. I literally just happened upon and thought you might find it useful, perhaps even now. Best regards.--] (]) 03:56, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
:Live template updated. I've added all of the deprecated parameters to {{slink|Misplaced Pages:AutoWikiBrowser/Rename_template_parameters#Cite_newspaper_The_Times}} and hacked an awb script to explicitely replace those deprecated parameters (I never use awb general fixes but there are a lot of editors who do). There are 6000-ish article that use this template so it will take a while to replace all of those parameters.
:—] (]) 16:32, 30 December 2021 (UTC)


== Link please ==
:As the name indicates, they are TEMPORARY. One tracks Cite newspaper The Times using the 'column' parameter; the other tracks Cite newspaper The Times using the 'day of week' parameter. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 15:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)


Is there a way to make a wikilink on the newspaper name? ] (]) 23:10, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
:The relevant discussion is ] (at the talk page for ]). Andy should have properly notified those using this template of the preparations he is making for his proposed changes. I do hope the temporary tracking categories are hidden ones, as otherwise they will be directly affecting article namespace. FFS! they are ''not'' hidden categories. Readers will be seeing these 'temporary' (over a day and a half now) categories popping up in many articles. That is not acceptable. ] (]) 21:39, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
:Generally not needed and perhaps not desirable. But, if you must:
::I think, to make the tracking categories hidden, someone needs to actually ''create'' them and add {{tl|Hidden category}} to them (see ]). ] (]) 21:44, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
::<code><nowiki>{{Cite newspaper The Times |title=The spelling of Kenya |author=J. H. Reynolds |department=Letters to the editor |date=8 February 1932 |page=8 |issue=46051 |column=B |newspaper=]}}</nowiki></code>
:::{{Cite newspaper The Times |title=The spelling of Kenya |author=J. H. Reynolds |department=Letters to the editor |date=8 February 1932 |page=8 |issue=46051 |column=B |newspaper=]}}
:—] (]) 23:19, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

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column/page display order

As currently written, when given both |page=2 and |column=N, the template renders "col N, p. 2". A couple of things about this seem odd to me. First is the order of rendering with the most specific location rendered first (column) followed by the least specific location (page). This to me is backwards. The rendering should proceed left-to-right least-specific-to-most-specific. Second, the column abbreviation should have a trailing dot "col." So, I've tweaked the sandbox. Compare:

"Article Title". Section Name. The Times. No. 12345. London. 3 January 1949. col N, p. 2. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help) – live
"Article Title". Section Name. The Times. No. 12345. London. 3 January 1949. col N, p. 2. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help) – sandbox

While I have done nothing about this yet, it also seems to me that |column= should be ignored when |pages= is specified and also ignored when |page= is not specified.

Without objection, I shall update the live template to render page-before-column.

Trappist the monk (talk) 13:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

The column parameter does not need to be ignored when pages is used.
"Article Title". Section Name. The Times. No. 12345. London. 3 January 1949. col E-F, A, pp. 2, 3. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help)
is clear enough in its meaning, is it not? Mjroots (talk)
Point taken.
Trappist the monk (talk) 10:05, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: - could you switch the display order as proposed please? Mjroots (talk) 08:19, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

I can do that. But, before I do, in the intervening months, Module:Template wrapper has come into being. This module is expressly intended for templates like {{cite newspaper The Times}} which sets certain parameters of another (base) template to default values but will allow these meta templates to support all of the base template's parameters without the need for extra pass-through parameters. For example, in the current live template, |author= is the only author-name parameter supported. With Module:Template wrapper, {{cite newspaper The Times}} can use all of the author-name parameters supported by {{cite news}}, for example |last= / |first=:
{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |articlename=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |first=J.H. |last=Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page_number=8 |issue=46051 |column=B }}
Reynolds, J.H. (8 February 1932). "The spelling of Kenya". Letters to the editor. The Times. No. 46051. London. col B, p. 8. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help)
I have also added &nbsp; between col. and its value and changed the subscription indicator to use |url-access=.
If these changes are acceptable, I will update the live template.
Trappist the monk (talk) 09:28, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

parameters that ought to be deprecated and removed

I think that some of the parameters used by this template should be deprecated:

  • |page_number= and |page_numbers= – these are too long and the underscore separator is inconsistent with the hyphen separator used in {{cite news}} (and all other cs1|2 templates) upon which {{cite newspaper The Times}} is based. Since this edit on 28 September 2016, this template has supported |page= and |pages= (the documentation, of course, has failed to mention that because, mea culpa, I suck at documentation).
  • |articlename= – also too long and also inconsistent with the underlying {{cite news}} which uses |title= (which became a supported parameter at the 28 September 2016 edit mentioned above)

I have tweaked the ~/sandbox to emit an error message when one (or more) of these parameters appear in a template:

{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |articlename=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |author=J.H. Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page_number=8 |issue=46051 |column=B}}
J.H. Reynolds (8 February 1932). "The spelling of Kenya". Letters to the editor. The Times. No. 46051. London. col B, p. 8. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help)

Changing that to use |title= and |page= gives:

{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |title=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |author=J.H. Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page=8 |issue=46051 |column=B}}
J.H. Reynolds (8 February 1932). "The spelling of Kenya". Letters to the editor. The Times. No. 46051. London. col B, p. 8. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help)

I have just begun to run a simple awb script to remove |day_of_week= from existing instances to {{cite newspaper The Times}} (not a supported parameter since the 28 September 2016 edit mentioned above). It is a relatively simple matter to have the script rename |page_number=, |page_numbers=, and |articlename= at the same time. When that script has completed its task, then the live version of the template can be updated to the sandbox version. The error messages would then become live for a period as an 'educational tool' to retrain editors who use this template. After that training period is over, the deprecated-parameter error messages can go away ({{cite news}} will emit error messages when |page_number=, |page_numbers=, and |articlename= are detected).

Without objections, I shall proceed.

Trappist the monk (talk) 15:59, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: I fully support this proposal. I came here to propose something similar, and was delighted to see that you are already on the case, with a very coherent plan. Thank you.
Consistency of parameter names helps everyone. I encountered this exception when a batch of ~20 articles appeared in Category:CS1 errors: unsupported parameter, and my regular cleanup script converted |page_number= to |page-number=. I saved two such pages intending to check what was going on (cos I hadn't seen those params before), but got sidetracked and forgot to check. @Lotje kindly reverted my two edits, and left a note on my talk.
It would be a big job to rewrite my AWB setup to accommodate the underscore params, and I am relieved not to have to do so. I will hold off running my script again until the conversion is complete. Merry Christmas! BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
I support the changes to standardize parameter names among similar templates. Editors shouldn't need to relearn parameter usage each time. Gonnym (talk) 12:11, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
Greetings Trappist the monk, I hope all is well with you. I literally just happened upon this tool and thought you might find it useful, perhaps even now. Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 03:56, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
Live template updated. I've added all of the deprecated parameters to Misplaced Pages:AutoWikiBrowser/Rename template parameters § Cite newspaper The Times and hacked an awb script to explicitely replace those deprecated parameters (I never use awb general fixes but there are a lot of editors who do). There are 6000-ish article that use this template so it will take a while to replace all of those parameters.
Trappist the monk (talk) 16:32, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Link please

Is there a way to make a wikilink on the newspaper name? BhamBoi (talk) 23:10, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Generally not needed and perhaps not desirable. But, if you must:
{{Cite newspaper The Times |title=The spelling of Kenya |author=J. H. Reynolds |department=Letters to the editor |date=8 February 1932 |page=8 |issue=46051 |column=B |newspaper=]}}
J. H. Reynolds (8 February 1932). "The spelling of Kenya". Letters to the editor. The Times. No. 46051. London. col B, p. 8.
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:19, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
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