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{| class="talkpagebox" style="width: 80%; background: AntiqueWhite; border:solid #FFCCCC"
|action2link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article removal candidates/September 11, 2001 attacks
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| <div class="boilerplate metadata plainlinks" id="tfd" style="background-color: transparent; padding: 0; font-size:xx-small; color:#000000; text-align: center; border-bottom:1px solid #AAAAAA; ">&lsaquo; The ] below has been proposed for deletion. See ] to help reach a consensus on what to do. &rsaquo;</div><includeonly>{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Template|]}}</includeonly> Remember that article ] are only there to coordinate the article's improvement, not for engaging in discussion for discussion's sake. '''Please do not use them as a discussion forum.'''<br>
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'''Please remember -- this talk page is for discussing the mechanics of the article (what to include, how to include it) only and not a place to discuss the events of 9/11''' ] <small>(])</small> 18:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
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The archives of the discussion of the '''September 11, 2001 attacks''' article may be found here:<br> ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ],
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|action3=FAC
==Fatalities==
|action3date=January 10, 2005
I'm finding the section on fatalities choppy -- the paragraph about schools closing, etc. almost seems like it doesn't fit under fatalities, except for the part about many people being from certain towns. Could the school closings be moved to another section (is there something about NYC area response / reaction??) -- Anyway, I think that at least the paragraph of school closings could be bumped down a paragraph or two to the end of that section -- it seems the paragraph about the city identifying people/bodies is better flow-wise....
|action3link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/September 11, 2001 attacks/archive1
|action3result=failed
|action3oldid=9272183


|action4=FAC
Anyway, I didn't want to change it w/o running it by here. ] 18:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
|action4date=29 December 2006
|action4link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/September 11, 2001 attacks/archive2
|action4result=failed
|action4oldid=96577662


|action5=GAN
==Removed==
|action5date=27 January 2007
|action5result=failed
|action5oldid=103691180


|action6=GAN
I just removed some text with the word 'bullshit' as it was hurtful to the event. - Anthony Timberlake
|action6date=2007-02-14, 01:40:32
:Who called &#147;bullshit&#148; and what did he/she call it on? &#151;] 02:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
|action6result=failed
:How did someone typing 'bullshit' here hurt an event that happend almost five years ago!?! --] 18:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
|action6oldid=107932109


|action7=GAN
Please provide a citation for the assertion that WTC7 was "heavily damaged" before it's collapse. I am unable to locate any. - Justin Keogh
|action7date=October 16, 2007
|action7result=failed
|action7oldid=164806833


|action8=GAN
==Freefall==
|action8date=May 19, 2008
|action8link=Talk:September 11%2C 2001 attacks/Archive 42#GA review
|action8result=listed
|action8oldid=213408835


|action9=PR
Ah yes, policies and guidelines… Mechanics you say? How about this, we stop using popular mechanics, and we include good old laws of physic: http://www.stlouisrams.net/911/freefall.htm (quite witty in my humble opinion). It would help… otherwise someone might just feel the need to share his perspective on freefall:), and turn this into, oh my, an open and free discussion! Mechanics you say? Any honest mechanic would state the same; it is now far beyond the repair… Such sad guidelines here, right? Talk page with no talk allowed? Must admit, this whole thing is very consistent in terms of insanity and indecency… 1984? Press restart to continue?
|action9date=01:58, 29 May 2008
|action9link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/September 11, 2001 attacks/archive1
|action9result=reviewed
|action9oldid=215415204


|action10=FAC
Reference:
|action10date=02:53, 10 July 2008
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/
|action10link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/September 11, 2001 attacks/archive3
http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:September_11%2C_2001_attacks/archive20#Credible_Academic_Sources
|action10result=not promoted
--] 3:33 PM, 29 August 2006 (CET)
|action10oldid=224667994


|action11=GAR
:In the link, objects are assumed to fall but not accelerate, and glass is assumed to be elastic, so it offers no insight into the real world. ] 18:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
|action11date=21:18, 20 August 2008
|action11link=Talk:September 11 attacks/GA1
|action11result=kept
|action11oldid=233054238


|action12=GAR
::And Peter, you have to understand that pancake theory is nothing but an insult. Honestly. http://www.reopen911.org/Tarpley_ch_6.pdf#search=%22911%20collapse%20pdf%22.However, I am willing to let that go (for now) because I simply find such discussion utterly, wholly, completely… absurdum & insane… --]
|action12date=19 June 2010
|action12link=Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment/September 11 attacks/1
|action12result=delisted
|action12oldid=365085475


|action13=GAC
|action13date=5 July 2011
|action13link=Talk:September 11 attacks/GA2
|action13result=not listed
|action13oldid=437810140


|action14=GAN
::Peter, as a good Wikipedian I always make an effort to assume good faith, but in this case I can't help but wonder if you either didn't read the article, or perhaps you're attempting to spread some FUD just for the hell of it. That was probably the clearest and most concise explanation of why "The Pancake Theory" and it's kissing cousin "Global Progressive Collapse." previously discussed right here on this page by Ed the Engineer, are physically impossible. ]
|action14date=20:05, 25 July 2011
::'''Remember, you can break the law, but you can't break the laws of physics.'''
|action14link=Talk:September 11 attacks/GA3
::] 22:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
|action14result=listed
::Clearest, most concise, and yet wrong. The article presents an ''analogy'', not scientific reasoning, starting with assumptions that are pure fantasy. Hence the conclusions won't apply in the real world. ] 01:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
|action14oldid=441341484
:::] was a strawman account of ]..., so what EngineerEd had to say on the matter is a mute point.--] 22:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
::::Interesting, I wasn't aware of the sockpuppeteering. I will admit to being somewhat suspicious of ] from the start, but I just checked into the Sockpuppet history. Never would have expected that one. ]
::::Still, it's always bothered me that the ''']''' and extremely ''']''' observation of the near freefall collapse times of the three WTC buildings has never been included in this page. Please state your objections to my proposal to include a line referencing this. ] 22:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
:::::You can forget about that, it would imply the American government is capabel of killing people and then lie about it, and the majority of wikipedians can not belive that would be the case. --] 00:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
::::::Inasmuch as the majority of wikipedians are in fact American, I am willing to believe that. But the rest of the world does not have such unwavering faith in the US government's good will. That aside, on a more scientific note, this conspiracy theory about explosives being planted in the towers being the only explanation for their near freefall-speed collapse is a bit ridiculous, and smacks of rudimentary high-school physics knowledge. The collapse of each successive floor, combined with the intense heat of a full tank of jet fuel burning, could have caused the destruction of the support structures of the floors immediately under the collapsing floor BEFORE the bulk of the upper collapsing floor arrived, meaning that there would be no "glass pane" to break through by the time the upper floor arrived. But even this is conjecture. The collapse of such a structure is a massively complicated event, and a few basic physics equations, which are based on a scenario simplified for school textbooks, cannot be used as the basis for a serious discussion. --Daniel, 23:30 3 September 2006 (NZT)
::::::This is a place to confirm facts, not peoples illusions about their government. We can't hold back the clear facts in an attempt to comfort people. --] 18:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


|action15=PR
To be honest, while I find information added here quite interesting (a brave new perspective on wiki world indeed), I sincerely couldn’t find it relevant. Whether wikipedians choose to ignore facts and continue to dream about freefall whose fundamental flaw is showed in very means and ways it is engineered… fact remains that AOL is a part of WWW and that same goes for Wiki… As straightforward as it sounds, you can get that link (which just fueled more nonsense here, and which I find to be very sad from many standpoints) with simple query to Google. As a matter of a fact, if one uses Google search engine to seek for truth he will get far better results then those displayed here or "disgusted" in the article. It will hit you right there on the first page, and first 11 slaps will show you all the material one needs… Of course, you have to understand that Google was forced to omit relevant pages for such a long time that I will commend their determination to come clean out of all this in same manner in which I will congratulate to Simpsons, who incredibly as it sounds managed to be so clairvoyant that they actually illustrated the state of the world today (season 3, if I can recall it correctly, very precise, along with twins, and monorails and so on…). Now, if one put's all that aside and just submerges under this lucid surface into the free and crystal clear depths of P2P he will see true numbers (it's about seeds & peers after all). One will know that war waged on these pages is now over and that only place where combat still rages is in the mind of Mongo and his kin… With your actions here, you fuel very dangerous form of dissent, that's all. Whatever doctrine single mind chooses to justify freefall the outcome will be such to restore the balance. It is very simple actually, you know, Coke-Pepsi, Nvidia-Ati, Intel-AMD & so on… You see this view of freefall: http://en.wikipedia.org/Domino_effect is worth nothing to us all, while this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/Butterfly_effect, well this one is worth everything... I will not stand for fear & terror, my course is peace & love (in Texas people call me terrorist when I say that:), there's no prison facility in the world (http://www.roadtoguantanamomovie.com/; http://en.wikipedia.org/Main_Page) which will change that.
|action15date=11:51, 23 August 2011
|action15link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/September 11 attacks/archive1
|action15result=reviewed
|action15oldid=446303582


|action16=FAC
Finally, if you would just ponder on what's happening here (in the history of this page), you would conclude that there are people willing to fight against:
|action16date=14:43, 30 August 2011
|action16link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/September 11 attacks/archive1
|action16result=not promoted
|action16oldid=447487536


|action17=GAR
1. Freedom of speech and expression
|action17date=16:23, 25 September 2011
2. Freedom of every person to worship God in his own way
|action17link=Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment/September 11 attacks/2
3. Freedom from want — individual economic security
|action17result=delisted
4. Freedom from fear — world disarmament to the point that wars of aggression are impossible.
|action17oldid=452181614


|action18=GAN
In other words, some of you fight against: a state in which somebody is able to act and live as he or she chooses, without being subject to any undue restraints or restrictions.
|action18date=May 24, 2013
|action18link=Talk:September 11 attacks/GA4
|action18result=not promoted
|action18oldid=556498139


|action19=GAN
Consider this to be well intended digression from popular mechanics, you can remove it, or you can just admit that you are on one way street with the dead end.
|action19date=July 13, 2015
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5l5bSxpCKEI. --] 7:27 AM, 30 August 2006 (CET)
|action19link=Talk:September 11 attacks/GA5
:Not sure what to say...I guess...gee, I'm convinced...the thousands of scientists that haven't agreed to your beliefs must all be inept.--] 06:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
|action19result=promoted
:: Which scientists? These? http://www2.nea.org/he/heta05/images/2005pg119.pdf#search=%22911%20academics%22
|action19oldid=671152132
Mongo on your user page you are posing in front of those towers like a peacock, that role suit's you well… -- ] 8:33 AM, 30 August 2006 (CET)
:::Glad you like it.--] 06:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
You've made your thoughts clear Lovelight. Everybody already knows what Mongos thoughts are concerning the matter. Now that you two have broken the ice, I see some nice harmonious editing on the horizon. Notable, reliably sourced, verifiable information for any would-be content additions or changes. I'm sure we can all agree on that? ] 06:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


|topic=World history
:We,ve seen all that and it's not going in this article.--] 11:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
|currentstatus=GA
|action20 = FAC
|action20date = 2018-10-27
|action20link = Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/September 11 attacks/archive2
|action20result = failed
|action20oldid = 865779234


|otd1date=2003-09-11
What are you talking about? If something is notable, reliably sourced and verifiable, then what exactly is the problem? ] 19:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
|otd1oldid=1418792


|otd2date=2004-09-11
:Is anything brought up in this section notable, reliably sourced, and verifiable? Domino effect? Butterfly effect? --] 19:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
|otd2oldid=9955831


|otd3date=2005-09-11
::Never mind those effects; well intended digression caused by the moment of passion, that's all… Fact remains that simple physics are utterly neglected in main article and I'm still waiting for a word from our fine administrators… hopefully we may hear some valid reasons why such information's cannot be included? -- ] 11:53 PM, 30 August 2006 (CET)
|otd3oldid=23006719


|otd4date=2006-09-11
:::becaucse it isn't true http://911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf .] 22:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
|otd4oldid=75188318


|otd5date=2009-09-11
::::Well, I am sorry but if you would be so kind and simulate another presentation? It could be that I missed it somehow, but I don’t see any reference about building 7? You know, the one which was http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7750532340306101329 "pulled" down? Here's another clip: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4322650841860671469. As I said I find this to be far more modest and far more honest explanation: http://www.stlouisrams.net/911/freefall.htm, think that this one is OK to: http://www.911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml or this one: http://911truestory.com/, or this one: http://www.yeeguy.com/freefall/ or… I could go on, but mongo already whooped me for lesser misconduct… Perhaps we should share other perspectives of freefall after all? --] 12:48 PM, 31 August 2006 (CET)
|otd5oldid=313246231


|otd6date=2012-09-11
:::::building 7? yes I belive that has been covered http://911myths.com/html/wtc7___silverstein.html .] 23:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
|otd6oldid=511650593


|otd7date=2013-09-11
::::::Well you could have covered a bit more, you offer me myth, and I offer you the world? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=building+7&btnG=Search... It just doesn’t seem right, you know? -- ] bedtime
|otd7oldid=572507707
:::::::::'''Remember, you can break the law, but you can't break the laws of physics.'''


|otd8date=2017-09-11
No, I was pointing out that article editing would be more constructive than arguing on the talk page. And that we are supposed to include information that is notable, reliably sourced and verifiable. Digiterata also pointed this out. I will try and do this myself when I have some time. Also wondering what the problem is with including such material. ] 19:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
|otd8oldid=800113517


|otd9date=2018-09-11
'''Best Seller Book online (independant investigation) here:
|otd9oldid=859078369
'''http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/04-01-06/discussion.cgi.56.html


|otd10date=2020-09-11
::::It's funny how sometimes, when reading these discussions, I don't even notice sliding down the rabbit hole, and other times it tickles a little. ] 22:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
|otd10oldid=977871368


|otd11date=2023-09-11
And analogies like ] make it still more interesting. ] 23:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
|otd11oldid=1174521963


|itn1date=2001-09-11
:Yes, perspectives, perspectives… http://en.wikipedia.org/American_mcgee%27s_alice... --] around bedtime


|itn2date=2002-09-11
Nice book, you should read it before, he is 5 stars in amazon.com and amazon.co.uk.
|otd12date=2024-09-11|otd12oldid=1245107774
:Junk science, but since likes it, it's got to be a fact-filled account, for sure. The author of the book isn't a doctor even...it;s just his pen-name. Please stop using this page as a measageboard...this is an encyclopedia project, not a blog.--] 11:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
}}
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{{Press
| title = On Misplaced Pages, Echoes of 9/11 ‘Edit Wars’
| author = Noam Cohen
| date = 11 September 2011
| month = January
| url = http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/12/business/media/on-wikipedia-911-dissent-is-kept-on-the-fringe.html
| org = ]


| author2 = Brian Keegan
::Hi there Mongo, could you explain (as policy holder here) policies and guidelines concerning notable, reliably sourced, and verifiable information's. The reason I ask? Well, every time one queries Google for something related to 911 the first page spit's out approximately 10/10 results which are to be dismissed here as junk science? Take this for illustration: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=controlled+demolition+911&btnG=Google+Search. So just clarify to us all… why are these sources neglected in spite the fact that they are obviously done by vast (notable) variety of World Wide Web users? Your statement from above: "We,ve seen all that and it's not going in this article.--MONGO 11:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)" is deeply disturbing. If you are biased on this matter, which you just said there yourself and which is more then obvious to anyone who visited your user page or took a look at your correspondence in last few months, then you are also against everything stated here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_guidelines. --] 2:16 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
| title2 = How 9/11 Shaped Misplaced Pages
::PS.If you need a reminder on how Google works, you may find it here: http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html
| org2 = ]
:::I'm not the policy holder here and I don't appreciate you saying I'm biased. I sdupport what is documaented by fact based evidence, not a bunch of home propaganda videos and other nonsense. Google rankings mean notablility, and have zero to do with reliability.--] 12:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
| url2 = https://slate.com/technology/2020/11/wikipedia-september-11-breaking-news.html
::::Reliability of sources in the main article doesn’t exist, look at previous discussions, every reference can be easily dismissed http://www.911truth.org/. You are eager and ready to enlist Fox as a reliable source? Knowing who: http://en.wikipedia.org/Rupert_Murdoch is? On other hand you are all vigorous when it comes to dismissing independent research of the subject? Just take a review of things you wrote to SkeenaR and others who were on this page asking for change… I find comments like this to be more then valid: http://www.newswithviews.com/Pratt/larry62.htm, and I always won't second opinion. That warning you just send to my talk page is intended for you, not for me… you folks are keeping this status quo for years now. Is that constructive? Constructive obstruction of wikipedia editors? And please don't speak to me about insults; you locked me out as soon as I tried to step in? Remember!? --] 2:55 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
| date2 = November 17, 2020
:::::You have produced nothing but blogs and links to websites and silly google videos that have no basis in fact. Where were you "locked out"...were you banned from editing here before?--] 14:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
| quote2 =
| archiveurl2 =
| archivedate2 =
| accessdate2 = September 9, 2021


| author3 = Stephen Harrison
::::::No, I was quite happy until that CSI fodder came to my TV. I wasn’t interested in the politics and I didn't care about 911 (however, I did keep my eye on it, very closely; my work implies ability to see and understand numerous perspectives…). But then this fear and terror thing is unsustainable (dumb to be honest), years are wasted (not to mention lives) and I choose to act. You can see my contributions in article about Starforce which is in some ways related to this madness. I have never been locked out before, and I dropped a note concerning that lock out. Here is the summary of that massage: "I will be free to write politely and speak kindly what ever I wish, when ever I wish, and on any level of my conciseness…". Anyway, I'm quite consistent in matters of truth, love, peace and understanding, in other words, to current American administration I would be worst nightmare, the highest sort of terrorist. It is enough, I see kids dissent in most desperate ways, they play GTA games and I have to watch how US throw's another big one but through conventional means (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ - quite close to that Nagasaki score, you know?), people around the world see that as another episode of CSI? Patriot Acts? Freedom of speech? Well enough is enough… --] 2:57 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
| title3 = How Misplaced Pages Grew Up With the War on Terror

| org3 = ]
== Two planes hit the WTC: 'an attack' or 'attacks'? ==
| url3 = https://slate.com/technology/2021/09/wikipedia-september-11-20th-anniversary.html

| date3 = September 8, 2021
I've noticed a few places in various articles where references are made to the "attack on the WTC" and to the "attacks on the WTC". Are both planes hitting the WTC considered a single attack, or do they represent multiple attacks? The name of this article does not provide enough reference for clarification, as it categorically includes the plane in PA and the Pentagon.
| quote3 =

| archiveurl3 =
Example of the problem from ]:
| archivedate3 =

| accessdate3 = September 9, 2021
''Windows of the World was destroyed in the terrorist '''attacks''' of September 11, 2001. At the time of the '''attack''', the restaurant was hosting regular breakfast patrons and the Waters Financial Technology Congress. In addition to 73 restaurant staff who were present at the time, 16 Waters employees perished as well as all 71 conference guests. Noone, who was present in these rooms at the time of the '''attacks''' survived.''

| author4 = Alex Pasternack
] 03:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
| title4 = How 9/11 turned a new site called Misplaced Pages into history’s crowdsourced front page

| org4 = ]
That's a good question. Probably a non-plural attack for a few reasons. Since the towers were part of one complex, the WTC complex, and the planes were a part of the same operation, it would be singular. If "attack" was always used instead of "attacks", it will also remove any ambiguity in other places as to whether the statement also refers to the '93 bombing. I guess the way that word is used actually does make a difference. Still though, it might not be quite that clear cut, since there was the Pentagon attack as well. That could make it Sept 11 "attacks". I think the best way is for the WTC to be an "attack", and Sept 11 to be "attacks". I do know of one outfit that persistently refers to the WTC attack as a plural, and that would be the lawyers trying to collect insurance money on the towers. It turns out they would get double the amount for two attacks instead of one. They said each plane was a seperate attack . That's in the ] article. ] 03:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
| url4 = https://www.fastcompany.com/90674998/how-9-11-turned-a-new-site-called-wikipedia-into-historys-crowdsourced-front-page

| date4 = September 11, 2021
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3682671.stm --Lovelight)
| quote4 =

| archiveurl4 =
If you really want a reference on whether to use "attack" or "attacks" -- look at Pearl Harbor. While we generally consider it to be one attack - but in actually, the Japanese used multiple attack waves in their plan by sending planes to fly over the base from multiple directions. Likewise for 9/11, we have multiple planes used to attack multiple targets; but directed at two different cities but all in the same day; for this, it is September 11 Attacks. As far as the World Trade Center is concerned, it is considered to be one facility - and therefore, one target. Thus, on the World Trade Center, it was one attack despite the use of two planes. ] 08:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
| archivedate4 =

| accessdate4 = September 13, 2021
== Foreknowledge ==

Let's build our foreknowledge now… this is what we know to be undisputed and true: http://911readingroom.org/bib/; feel free to dispute those facts.

This: http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html is a place where you'll meet some of the people who forged our reality, and if you fallow the tracks you're bound to learn about their connection to 911 attacks and such wars as one in Afghanistan, Iraq… You'll also learn a lot about trading that took place just before 911 events. That link is of the top, search for "Carlyle Group" if you won't to know more. What is important is the source of information http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=insiderTrading, which (for most part) came directly from press agencies such as associated press, Reuters, and so on. In other words all this knowledge is valid and at our disposal. Feel free to use Google to clarify things. Everything about inside trading that took place before 911 can be easily verified in any newspaper archive timed in the days following 911 (for those with short memories) events. This route (perspective) will lead reader way back into the history; it will provide a good foundation for understanding economic, social & military background of 911 events. Also, please do take a moment to learn about the interests of US administration, those former and/or current one: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bush_family_911.html. Finally if this page would serve its purpose, then we would be free to discuss all sort's of things. Here is an example taken from another (not moderated) public forum (http://www.topix.net/forum/news/george-bush): "The 911 attacks were attributed to osama bin laden from the onset. Let's just say for the bushies it wasn't an attack by our own. With the conspiracy theories aside let's look at the "undisputable facts". On Sept 11 2001 there was a meeting in NY of the board of directors and the major investors of the Carlyle Group, a Saudi owned energy firm boasting the biggest profits of any company in world history. Now also in attendance of these meetings was george bush sr. who at the time was on the board of directors and financial advisor of the Carlyle Group. The bushes are also among the largest investor in this company with apx. 78% of their net worth invested in the Carlyle group. Now the largest investors are the Bin laden family and the Saudi royals. No less than 26 members of the bin laden family were attending this meeting along with the Saudi royals on the morning of 911.
After the attacks the only people allowed to take to the skies were the Saudi royals and the binladens"… --] 4:05 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
:All thses points have been address...all I see are links to conspriacy theory websites with popups. Show me some peer reviewed proof that the mainstream version is wrong.--] 14:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
::So you say that mainstream agencies are worthless (could agree on that one)? Honestly, I don't care who gathered resources… I already stated that all those links provide valid and undisputed facts. If you click those links, you'll see that you just said how associated press, Reuters, Washington Post and so on... are not valid sources. Read what is provided, I haven’t addressed these issues, and I won't let go… Conspiracy is not a code word here, code word is TRUTH! --] 4:55 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
:::What truth? Show me something that is a reliable source that the proven evidence about what happened on 9/11 is wrong. All you're doing is linking us to blogs and websites that are controlled by one or a few websmasters and they have editorial control over what they have there...that's not science...it's science fiction.--] 15:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
::::Again, these locations provide a gathering place for all willing or unwilling mistakes that were made by mainstream media. Look, go here: http://911readingroom.org/bib/ and click on foreknowledge… every document there is provided by AP, New York Times, Reuters and so on… --] 5:14 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
:::::It's all because that conspiracy nonsense, conspiracy has nothing to do with that, I would provide you with the direct link, but that website is designed to be navigated, not disputed right there in the lobby… --] 5:17 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
::::::Great, ] 9/11 links and other links to conspiracy theory websites...there's nothing to any of that worth the time of day.--] 15:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no point is spamming this page with conspiracist essays. I'm going to start removing stuff that would be better on blogspot. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
:If you choose to remove valid sources, I'll have to dig up every single document in his original form… and then we'll have ZOO. Please, do catch you breath and check what is provided… --] 5:01 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
:Please be more specific, there is no sense is presenting a large volume of documentation and throwing out a challenge to verify it all. And even verifiable facts are inappropriate if they have the effect (or intention) of misleading Misplaced Pages readers. Plus the word "truth" gets abused so much the discussion frequently doesn't even make sense. There are many speculations, with varying degrees of plausibility and evidence. Checking at 15:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC), there are no new facts, although to its credit the site declares its bias up front. ] 15:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
::My apologies, but I've been mistreated here for no reason whatsoever… and I had to stop good old Tom there from acting hasty and robustly… This section is named foreknowledge. Links that are provided need to be navigated and I can help that, whether you find that particular website biased or not, it is not of an issue. When you enter that lobby click on section called foreknowledge and see documentation provided there… It is good tool to find mainstream articles about 911 events which illustrate need for further discussion. As I said, one can provide all that data link by link, but such things are called entropy. Plus the word "conspiracy" gets abused so much the discussion frequently doesn't even make sense. --] 5:41 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)

I checked a few of the "foreknowledge" articles. Seems like they seem to agree that terrorist organizations are suspected of planning acts of terrorism and there are occasional reports about that. Most are false alarms, some are investigated further and found to be false alarms, ] are real plans that are caught in time, sometimes one gets through. Is there an actual point to all of this "foreknowledge"? Here is some more foreknowledge: Al Qaeda guys are planning terrorism right now and will strike some time in the future. Whatchagonnadooabootit? ] 18:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

:What is "building foreknowledge" anyway? Is there a specific deficiency with the article, not previously discussed, that would make Misplaced Pages better? ] 18:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

::Exactly, thank you for pointing that out. It is about new perspectives, which are becoming clearer because more and more information is available. If you take a look at this: http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01; you will meet the chaos of that day from military perspective. If you know where most of US forces were playing that day (in spite clear and present '''foreknowledge'''), you may have to ask yourself about reasons for such colossal ineptitude. People need to be aware that documents such as: http://en.wikipedia.org/Operation_Northwood, do carry certain weight. Post 911 world is very sad place, we know where it all started, and we should investigate. Official story is very poorly presented… It would be very narrow-minded to extract this event from global picture. After all it did serve as a false cause for invasion of Iraq. The man who is supposedly guilty is somewhere enjoying his frozen margaritas and world is trembling in unnatural state of fear & terror. We have to ask ourselves why American people stand for all that, why they don't act when they know that it was a lie from beginning.http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf#search=%22ohio%20hearings%20pdf%22; http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&lr=&q=clint%20curtis%20testimony&btnG=Search&sa=N&tab=wv; or to be on the target here, why is this particular discussion under surveillance, or what ever did that funny banner show that other day? --] 9:05 PM 31 August 2006 (CET)
:::Well, I found a good solid link too...it evokes a spirit of understanding beyond which I could ever have hoped would happen....--] 21:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
::::Constructive Mongo, not destructive. Remember? Hate, anger and fear are the most destructive ways, try to find opposite values. That aside, part of building our foreknowledge is in understanding who and what Osama is. It is already taken in account with links above, so you just have to recall how it all started: http://en.wikipedia.org/Soviet_invasion_of_Afghanistan#US_involvement_in_Afghanistan, then you use Google with queries like this one> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=osama+cia&btnG=Search; or this one: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Osama+Bin+laden+medical+treatment+&btnG=Search or http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=osama+cia+pdf&btnG=Search & so on… there is a root of all this fear & terror nonsense and it is not so hard to find. It will hurt some… but what is there to do… sit back while someone ravages through Lebanon http://www.amnesty.org/ in most callous way? Anyway I won't post zounds of links here, feel free to add whatever you think is important. And please, do keep in mind that the only way to write this (any) article properly and decently is logos. History is a good tool, Misplaced Pages is not the best place to check for facts connected to 911 events. Take this page for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/Osama_bin_laden, at one point you'll see fact's there, at other you'll see poorly and deliberately drawled lies. It's about editing wars, it's healthy but it leads of the path… --] 12:11 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)
:''It is about new perspectives''. More information becomes available, but also more disinformation. Genuinely '''new''' perspectives might well improve Misplaced Pages, although new does not necessarily imply it will qualify as encyclopedic. In the absence, however, of new perspectives or new information this discussion does not contribute anything to the article. ] 15:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
::Is it so? If new perspectives are new (or to be quite honest, hundreds of years old) then how may we discuss them without a discussion? This is not a child play, let me illustrate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCaBCdJWOyM. --] 5:20 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)
:::New '''to the article''', obviously. I assume if you challenge people to spend their valuable time following dozens of links, then you've read all 20 archived talk pages yourself, right? ] 15:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Yes I did, at least good part of it… but visitors didn’t. Why would I throw more links here? You neglected thousands of them already… Anyway, what I'm trying to say, it is important to relate this discussion to current events; it is a contemporary talk about the past events? We cannot be just technical when we speak of our present or future. You may insist to keep this event frozen in time, but then you would loose the touch with reality http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5305024.stm. If wikipedia chooses to ignore the current facts, then you say so clearly… I'm not in the hurry… & nope, not new to the article. Didn't like it in first place… simply not interested in false information's. --] 5:51 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)
Ok but in order to stay more objective, we should set all the hypotheseis discussed including: CIA, Israel, Russia implication and Naom Shomsky; David Duke opinions, ....why to avoid those probabilities thanks.
:? He's a giant, just for his contributions to computer science. --] 03:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

==Secondary Explosions==
I don't see any info about secondary explosions in this article. These were widely reported by first responders and workers at the World Trade Center. Why this is allowed to be only mentioned in the conspiracy theory section only leads to more believing there's a true conspiracy.
:
:
:
:
Why doesn't this article mention the evidence of secondary explosions?
] 08:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

::Of course, article should reflect these facts; Misplaced Pages is independent source of our knowledge. Whether someone likes or dislikes certain facts is not an issue here. Such essentials simply need to be referenced. First reports and eyewitness accounts are more than numerous, everything can be easily verified through mainstream media, whether we talk about video streams or hard copies of newspaper. --] 12:00 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

:::Ok, we have a section called "Investigations." Under that heading, we have "The collapse of the World Trade Center" and "9/11 Commission Report," though the former section seems like it is part of the later. That is, "The Collapse of the World Trade Center" should be called "The collapse of the World Trade Center According to the 9/11 Commission." So, I would think the first thing to do is to change this heading. Then, since this is not a place for the 9/11 Commission Report to be reprinted, that section should be removed, or rewritten to reflect objective reality. That is, I didn't come to this page to see what the 9/11 Commission said happened, I came here to see what actually happened. Then, this new section needs to detail what actually happend, including the evidence. I think the video evidence of eyewitness accounts and the secondary explosions stands on it's own, and should be part of this page.] 16:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

::::You would be wrong. The evidence of 'secondary explosions' means nothing. Also, I will not look at YouTube stuff at work - can you transcribe the bit about 'explosive devices found'? By the way, since when did professional demolition use explosive devices? That seems to me to imply a self-contained bomb, with timer and fuse. Professional demolition doesn't work that way. I love tearing down this theory, it's so fun. --] 19:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

:::::The evidence is clear. Secondary explosions happened. How can you imagine that these do not factor into the falling of this building? --] 00:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

:::::Would you explain that rezoning to me please? YouTube video clips? These streams are taken from TV stations, news stations and so on. Just use your logic, please. For example explain to me that tremendous heat that melts, pardon, cuts steel? While you and I and anyone who was shocked that day saw people standing in those holes. Listen to do fireman reports, they talk about isolated pockets of fire, they can take them out… free stairway… yet those towers fell? What exactly are you tearing down here? Eyewitness testimonies? Ridiculous, with your reasoning it is no wonder that this page is in such state… http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/firefighter-tape-excerpts.htm; I will provide more about this later. --] 10:42 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

::::::My reasoning was simple - I won't watch a video at work. I don't think my boss appreciates it. And I didn't want to wait til I got home. Basically, you have to do one thing, and one thing only, to convince me that controlled demolition brought down the towers - give me evidence that the explosives were planted. Not found - ''planted''. Tell me who wired 270 floors of office tower to collapse, and when they did it. It's quite simple. If you can't, then move on - there's a lot stronger evidence a hundred floors up of what caused the collapse than what you can give. Jeez, it's not like we haven't spent the last half decade dealing with this stuff, I'd've thought you people would have given up on this article by now and gone back to your poorly-designed blogs and the Conspiracy article, which exists just for you! So have fun with it! But leave the main article alone. It's for fact only. Facts: Planes crashed into towers, towers collapsed. Conjecture: That anything else happened. This article is not for conjecture. --] 20:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Convince you? Who are you? Is your opinion higher then mine? Please answer my questions, if you can. I don’t care what you people have done in last five years. I asked you a question; explain to me how can someone live in thousands of Fahrenheit's? Another freefall nonsense? Tell me why the firemen who were right there in the middle of inferno didn’t scream in terror? You have done nothing in last half of decade, nothing but silent consent to murder, pain & suffering. I'll answer your question, when you answer mine. --] 11:07 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)
::::::::Frankly, yes, it is, because it is correct. I will not answer your questions because I will not be suckered in to a fight with you. This will not be put into this article, that is final. --] 21:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::And what is this? Beg your pardon, but I find that remark quite personal. Would it be impolite if I would smack you with the ruler? Here have a gift instead: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-logic/ so that we may stand as equal and have same "Organon". If you have any personal remarks, we can share them on our talk pages… --]
:::::::PS. http://www.apfn.org/APFN/WTC_questions.htm

Very well, it is just the sort of information control I'm talking about… thank you for making it clear. Here is another youtube clip… don’t worry it's the last one, very clear one, you should see it:)… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XKa8VE7ILI --] 11:42 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)
:Wah wah censorship. Yes, we censor crackpots. Something to be proud of. And that trailer, I thought you were trying to make a point. A movie trailer. Wow. Yeah, that did it. --] 21:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

:Christ, I just watched the video about 'police find bomb'. It was described second-hand as a SUSPICIOUS DEVICE. There are dozens of suspicious devices found every day, and very very rarely are they bombs. Sigh. Try to think, please. And then we have "reason to believe some of the explosions may have been caused by a van". Wow, two waffles - 'reason to believe' and 'may have been caused'. Similes, not statements of fact. If the police said "one of the explosions was caused by a van", THEN we're in business. But no. You have similes and .. movie trailers. Grand job. --] 21:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

::Golbez, please don't post here if you do not look at all the info referenced. Did you watch the video where the bomb goes off? The evidence is clear, and you are on the border of being a troll --] 00:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

:My dear Goblez, I am a person of classical education, I find your logic poor and dim… I would like to present this page to the mainstream media around the world now. Hope you won't mind… nor vandalize. --] 11:53 PM 1 September 2006 (CET)

::As long as you don't present similes as facts. --] 21:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Wrong again, it is about you choosing to ridicule and dismiss very serious discussion… but so did Mongo, and Peter and so on… Nothing to worry here, it is just decent and honest insight about poor state of our Misplaced Pages. --] 12:01 AM 1 September 2006 (CET)
::::No, it will not be included in this article. That's it. ] 22:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::… and Morton:), good night & good luck... --] 12:20 PM 2 September 2006 (CET)
::::::Ah, the 5th of September, ehh? Are you my friend the "Che Vandal"? ] 22:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
:It's both cute and pathetic, really. He makes these statements, I hit them at their weakest point, and suddenly we're satans or draculas, or possibly zombie draculas. I used independent thought, now it's your turn. --] 22:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, your willingness, or unwillingness, to watch the clear evidence of secondary explosions, does not mean they didn't happen! Such remarks about being able or unable, willing or unwilling, to watch clear video evidence, does not belong on this page! --] 00:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:Slipgrid, out of curiosity, why are you surprised by secondary explosions in a buiding collapse or fire? werent there cars parked in the WTC and the usual assortment of gas lines, boilers, airconditioners and janitorial supplies? ] 01:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::I am very surprised by secondary explosions before the buildings collapsed. Here's some reasons. Seismic data shows very larges explosions. Most of the jet fuel burned outside the building. This is evident by seeing people standing at the holes in the buildings. You don't get large explosions like this at other building fires. The media reported on the secondary explosions once, never redacted their stories, but never talked of them again. Those, and many more reasons caused me to be surprised.--] 03:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:::About that seismic data: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=911+seismic+data&btnG=Search --] 10:41 AM 2 September 2006 (CET)

The unfortunate reality is that an enormous body of folklore, and outright disinformation, has appeared surrounding this subject matter. Hence new material is assessed critically (and in general reasonably fairly). These ] are rejected because they lack supporting evidence and/or scientific accuracy. ] 01:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:The objective reality is in the videos I linked.--] 03:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::Then your objective reality is made up of similes and plot holes. --] 03:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:They only provide evidence of sounds similar to explosions - an unremarkable occurrence in a structurally-compromised building. ] 04:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::Morning fellows, do focus on building 7, would you? It is as frail as house of cards. Here's one link: http://www.911research.wtc7.net/. Before you dismiss it in your wise and polite manner, please notice that fine disclaimer: http://www.911research.wtc7.net/re911/disclaimer.html; think it is written with you on mind. Then go here: http://www.wtc7.net/ and check the highlights with full speed, then break a little and read what's written here: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fema_report.html. After you done, come share your illogical reasons to neglect those facts… Soon we may also talk about those passports: http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/passport.html, which is just.., oh what a poor, poor movie. And that cleanup? Lovely, isn’t it? Let's take all the evidence and quickly incinerate them in China… Thieves in the night… --] 10:35 AM 2 September 2006 (CET)
:::PS. Here, picture what will happen when we start to talk about other serious issues: http://images.google.com/images?q=pentagon+911+pictures&hl=en&lr=&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title
:Lovelight, you should be aware that your claim of seismic data proving controlled demolition of the twin towers has been debunked on numerous websites. Popular Mechanics did a story about this-- -- the "sharp spikes are only on graphs that have a time scale of half an hour. Graphs of the same data over a period of a few minutes show no sharp spikes that correspond to explosives. In fact this claim has even been refuted by many within the "9/11 Truth Movement" (). There's nothing wrong with being skeptical, but you should be open to all the facts. ] 20:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
::Sorry, haven't noticed this one and haven’t talked about spikes… just provided a link there to illustrate discussion… Since Peter and others are with you taking that lovely picture down there, could you be the one who will explain to me why cannot be presented in the article; obviously being the best current illustration of long term effects. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) {{{2|}}}.</small>
:::The preceding unassigned comment was singed by me… --] 7:07 AM 6 September 2006 (CET)

==Attacks in popular culture==
Most articles have a section about an event in popular culture. Can somebody please add it? I am aware that some may contributores may find this inappropriate for such a tragic event, but I do not find this a good reason because it is also there for other tragic event such as the ] and I am not aware of any policy forbidding this. Thanks in advance. ] 13:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:I mean if this is refused in this article for stated reasons then I think the same reason should apply for several other articles as well. ] 13:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:See ] ] 14:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::] is linked from this article, I think in the "memorials" section. Maybe it ought to be linked in a different spot, but it's there. This material was once here in the main article, but due to its length was split into a separate subarticle. There is also ], which is tagged to be merged with the other article. --] <small>(] ])</small> 14:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the explanation. ] 18:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
::::While this sort of addendum might sooth some, in my humble opinion it will do as much good as first walk on the moon did. So let's take a look at tragedy of that day. Tragedy that reoccurred more than once and it threats to reoccur on the daily basis with incredibly prudent and sane statements of US president, who is very clear and persistent in fueling that very interesting (and never before heard of) islamo-nazi doctrine. So let us all just sing dim, dumb da dumb while we cross the event horizon? Well good ladies and gentleman it won't be the case here, no tin foils, no lemmings and no nonsense from my part. I won't be blinded in front of the firing squad. In my time, I've seen pictures of presidents in schools, and they have right to be there in same manner as burning cross or devastated statues of Buddha. I was million miles away but I did cry that day, wonder what some of you did? Loosed your logos in awe and amazement? This being another digression, I apologies as I get back to popular culture. So here, have another very clear, very insightful illustration. This event need to be related to historical perspective (which is a bit different approach then popular culture), then you may noticed that person who speak in the name of God (any god) deserves to be answered in same manner. Overgrown brutes who with their interpretation of divine wisdom cause event such as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/Armenian_massacre (another heavily disputed article there), will get same sort of fundamental (which is fundamentally flawed, but in some cases rather necessary) answers: http://www.systemofadownonline.com/lyrics/0101.htm. And please do understand that this is an illustration, not my point of view. More about popular culture in form of multimedia will be available on my user page. More movies about 911 can be found here: http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=911&btnG=Google+Search&sa=N&tab=wv --] 11:00 PM 3 September 2006 (CET)

==Intro==
What is with the "... acording to the official story" line at the end of the introduction. It seems a bit POV to me.
:Already corrected. ] 00:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
::I find the conclusiveness with which the statements are made in the introduction to be unwarranted. If this were not such a politically charged situation, the traditional Anglo-American values of "innocent until proven guilty" would prevail. In discussions elsewhere I have asked for solid evidence that the 19 men named as perpetrators were indeed the culprits. Such evidence has '''never''' been forthcoming. Indeed, the FBI doesn't even list bin Laden as a suspect in the 9/11 attacks. This fact is addressed here: ''Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because '''the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11'''.”'' I will observe that Tomb gave a more equivocal statement to the Washington Post a month later.

::''"The absence has also provided fodder for conspiracy theorists who think the U.S. government or another power was behind the Sept. 11 hijackings. From this point of view, the lack of a Sept. 11 reference suggests that the connection to al-Qaeda is uncertain."''

::But the statement that ''"Exhaustive government and independent investigations have concluded otherwise, of course, and bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings."'' Is simply not supported by the evidence. If you believe that I am wrong about this matter, then '''show me the evidence!'''.

::Is wikipedia more than propaganda tool for the military-industrial complex? How would the ] or ] incidents be treated if they were current events today? History screams to us that we must hold the Government suspect, and demand compelling evidence supporting any claim of consequence promulgated by our public servants. Indeed, our Founding Fathers demanded this of us. The Internet gives us a chance to get it right. Let's not blow it by continuing down the same well trodden corridor of generations passed.

::It is apparent to me that the uncritical acceptance of the accusations against the men named as perpetrators in the 9/11 attacks is due to religious and ethnic bigotry, and not due to evidence presented. The images found on pages linked from the FBI's page in conjunction with the accusations against these men contained therein constitute a crime of defamation of character. That crime is motivated by racial and religious bigotry of the basest nature, and therefore constitutes a hate crime. I do not believe "hate crime" legislation is proper, but the statutes exist and are loudly proclaimed as of primary importance by the FBI. Hetware 20:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

:::Yet another stirring rhetorical exercise! Job well done. We will all surely note that you believe something called...um..."PrisonPlanet" is a reputable source, yet you disparage the ]. Makes sense to me! ] 21:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

::::I do not trust any source without reservation. I try very hard to cross verify any questionable assertions, regardless of the source. The New York Times and Washington Post have proven to be unreliable on many crucial issues. Take for example their original reporting on ] in which both newspapers asserted the NOLA levees broke after midnight of the night '''following''' landfall.

::::I have read the relevant sections of the as well as the by ], and the . I have also carefully considered what ] presents in . I have read the sections in university textbooks on the theory of ], as well as researched the ] and ] characteristics of aluminum and iron under relevant physical conditions. I have examined the videos allegedly of ] taking credit for the 9/11 attacks. I have investigated the characteristics of the aircraft involved, as well as the witness accounts and available flight data from the aircraft.
::::On the basis of my research I have concluded the official conspiracy theory is a fraud. When I asked for evidence I was presented with inane innuendo. I will take that as further evidence of the rightness of my conclusions.] 13:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

:::::: Thanks, "innane innuedo" was the overall tenor I was aiming for. Congratulations on having "read the sections in university textbooks." Do keep up the good work. ] 05:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


:::::The onus is on challengers to provide credible evidence that ] contains errors. And if by "official theory" you refer to the "]", that has ].] 17:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::It is all nonsense Peter, right there from the freefall, or controlled demolition or whatever you wont to call it… so what exactly are we doing here? Neglecting logic, ridicule laws of physics, dismissing well elaborated and deeply researched subjects and so on… It is not upon the challengers, facts speak for them self. In last week none of the keepers answered single question. You just kept pointing in other directions, directions which are quite far from our focal point of interest… --] 8:44 PM 5 September 2006 (CET)
:::::::What are you calling "nonsense"? The scientific analyses of professional structural engineers, or the personal intuition of amateurs that contradicts them? Recall , which as previously pointed out is not even based on real-word physics. (That writer apparently does not even realize that ] is an ], not a ].) ] 19:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::Think I wrote what I sense about such discussion… --] 11:00 AM 5 September 2006 (CET)
::::::::What on Earth does the acceleration of gravity have to do with evidence linking Osama bin Laden to 9/11? I asked for evidence implicating the accused to the crimes. So far the only "evidence" I've seen are the accusations leveled by the US Government, the extraordinarily dubious presence of passports allegedly found at the crash sites, the aircraft manuals allegedly found in vehicles used by the accused, and the clearly fraudulent Osame bin Laden "confession" videos. You have not shown one shred of evidence that the 19 alleged hijackers committed these acts. Just a little effort on your part will lead you to BBC articles claiming that several of the alleged suicide hijackers were still alive after 9/11/01. If you believe that ] executed the extraordinary final maneuver of AA77 just before it hit the Pentagon, I have to conclude that you are impervious to rational argument founded on available evidence.] 20:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::The evidence requested is . Obviously. ] 02:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
:::The evidence has been assessed, vetted, discussed etc. (see the many archives). "Uncritical acceptance" of ''any'' source is not helpful. ] 22:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
::: --]

::::Another of those arguments where you have an argument without argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/Ivory_tower)? Whatever, I would like to reference this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/5305868.stm, any reservation? If not, any of established users who would be so kind… --] 11:45 PM 4 September 2006 (CET)
:::::There is an article to discuss the ]. ] 22:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::There is also a section called "Long-term effects" here, so why would we go there? --] 1:15 AM 5 September 2006 (CET)

== Memorial ==

Is there any plans that any of the Misplaced Pages Adiministrators would make a memorial page for the events of that tragic day? Also will this be able to be a permanent memorial online? --] 21:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
:There already is one, http://sep11.wikipedia.org but it's in constant danger of being removed. --] 19:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Living at 8th St & Broadway, highest point between Empire State Building and WTC, photos we took from the rooftop, Ground Zero, Union Square and Washington Sq Park are at newyorkpix.com, added the link for a first hand view from the frozen zone. ] 08:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

==Top Photo==
Is this image the best we can do? It seems to be pretty poor quality with a lot of digital interference. I assume the only reason we are using it as the top image on this article is because it is public domain. However, we don't even actually know that it is a public domain image. It comes from the website of the US Embassy in Tanzania. It is therefore entirely possible that this photo was placed on that website with out it being in the public domain. I contend that we should find a better image to feature on this article. ] 20:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
:I agree that the top photo is probably not a public domain work, of a U.S. government employee. I can think of some options for photos:
:# I'm quite stringent with the issue of fair use, but I think a single image (screenshot) from CNN or other news outlet may qualify as ] in this case?
:## Under ], it says "Film and television screen shots. For critical commentary and discussion of the cinema and television." Arguably, the "television" is the broadcast of the 9/11 attacks and this entire article "discusses" it.
:## {{tl|HistoricPhoto}} fair use tag could also apply here, as it covers "non-reproducible historic event, and no free alternative exists or can be created".
:# Another possibilty is to explore what's on Flickr, such as this . This photographer tagged his photos with Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.0, which is incompatible with Misplaced Pages. However, he indicates a willingness to "share it with others"; If asked, he (or someone other photographer) might grant use of one image to Misplaced Pages, under a compatible license.
:# A third source is FEMA's photo library, which documents their response in and at the . Since it covers the aftermath, I don't think there is anything comparable to the first two options for the lead photo. Though, there may be something useful here for the elsewhere in the article. --] <small>(] ] ])</small> 00:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
::I strongly support using an image in the public domain and will search for one now.--] 05:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

== Format and layout ==

I briefly added ], in place of the table of fatalities. I thought we might do better with a more horizontal format, and one we can hide. It turned out that the reference tags didn't work, as I should have expected. I could hard-code the notes into the template, but then we would have a second set of footnotes just for that section. I'm also not sure about transcluding content with a template. Possibly we could do something like we do with ], if that's allowed in article space. Any thoughts? ] <sup>]</sup> 00:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
:Nothing is allowed in the article, article won't budge… if you won't to improve the article answer some of the questions above. --]<sup>]</sup> 2:20 AM 7 September 2006 (CET)

In the section 'Other potential hijackers' this sentence is included: "Plans to include Moussaoui were allegedly never completed because the al-Qaeda hierarchy allegedly had doubts about his reliability." One instance of the word 'allegedly' should be removed. Additionally, in the same section this sentence: "On May 3, 2006, a federal jury rejected the death penalty and sentenced Moussaoui to 6 life terms in prison without parole.." should have one dot removed. ] 14:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

== An editor here, please ==

Just for this minor typo in the section "Other possible hijackers": ''In a an video tape released in''... Thanks.

:My apologies but now is the time to put that banner which shows that neutrality of this article is disputed. Would you please be so kind?... Thanks. -- ] 00:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

::No. --] 01:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
::<b>Yes</b>. I'm not an admin, but we . Yesterday, , who just published a book, trying and failing to debunk the alternative theories of the September 11, 2001 events. WaPo, . This article only reflects the views of one commission. . The neutrality of this article is now widely disputed. --] 01:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:::As the "saddam did 9/11" polls show us, facts are not dictated by democracy. The article has dealt with slings and arrows for five years, and it has received nary a dent; that either means we're draconian in maintaining it, or the arrows are ultimately weak. --] 03:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
::::<b>What are you talking about?</b> "." Golbez, quit with your ct! Fact is this artile is <b>under dispute</b>, not only by the American people, but people all accross the world! Fact are clear that people dispute this story!--] 18:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Polls or Golbez vs -- ] 10:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::You misread my statement, but that's okay. It's not like I expected an actual response. (ps - i think the people who think saddam did 9/11 are wrong, because they are, because the facts say they are. polls might say people dispute the official story but that does not make the official story false) You need something better, and you aren't going to find it. Just go to the conspiracy theory page, we have tents set up there for you. --] 10:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::Perhaps you misunderstood my statement? Have you read those documents? Please read what is provided… It doesn't matter what people thought yesterday… few days ago people thought there were no secret CIA prison facilities, today they are outraged by their existence… What you need to do now, is to form another Al-Qaeda for yourself... Article is not just disputed, article is on the top of the building and it is getting ready for some freefall jumping… as you and I know there is no resistance in freefall, no resistance whatsoever. -- ] 10:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::uh huh... --] 11:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Just to make things clear, here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5328592.stm are some new facts which surfaced yesterday… this new data is sourced here: http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf. Until relevance of these new findings is reflected in this (and other related articles), article should stand as '''disputed '''. -- ] 11:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::What does the war in Iraq have to do with this article?--] 11:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Golly, I can find some links too...let's see...., , , , , , ], ] and for a good google video, try this one...]...go forth and seek the truth.--] 11:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::Let's say (outrages as it may sound) you won't to present pure facts and improve this article. In the interest of historical accuracy you need to mention how: "US president has again and again tried to connect the war (in Iraq), which most Americans think was a mistake, with the so-called war on terror, which has the support of the nation." These are very small setbacks from current wiki policy on this page… Article simply needs update; article needs neutrality and independence. If we wage your links and mine, you'll see that we need to balance things a bit. As you refuse, I refuse too that my point of few should be in any way related to the word "conspiracy". Go forth and seek the truth… so to say… -- ] 11:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::Lovelight...I just got through cleaning up every single one of the external links in this article, so indeed, it is rather insulting that you would assume I wouldn't want to present ] evidence from ]...surely in the ten minutes since I posted my links, you couldn't have refuted them all....I think this article dallies too much into things that have nothing to do with the events of the day of the attacks...and in keeping with ], I believe it is important to emphasize the scope of the events of the attacks and marginalize the after effects...maybe arguments about the war in Iraq should be taken to ] or ] articles, or something along those lines.--] 11:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::Yes, I have noticed how article is extremely careful in regards to Iraq. However, as you see in example above it would be a very simple, one would say, very small sentence. Perhaps related source and reference prove importance? Anyway, I see your point, and you have my apologies for those insinuations (triggered by our history on this page:), external links are cleared up indeed. Thank you. Here are few suggestions regarding that section. There is alternative (current) , and there is also an interactive insight in NORAD activates In my opinion article should recall whereabouts of US military on that day (closely related facts there). I've posted those "no link" links on some related pages, and Tom was also very kind and pointed in same direction… -- ] 12:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

===Questions re/in survey====
I have to question the quality of the questions asked. Are we to believe there was a single question which asked: ''Did federal officials assist in the 9/11 terrorist attacks OR take no action to stop them SO THAT the United States could go to war in the Middle East?'', and to which more than a third answered 'YES'? --] 18:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:I believe the question is to the dispute of the story on this page. "More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll." This article does not mention the possibility that the Federal Goverment <i>let it happen</i> <b>or</b> <i>made it happen</i>, so this article is disputed, for many reason, by a large amount of the population. --] 19:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
::Then direct them here for an education.--] 20:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:::And there you go again Mongo… Say, what's with those links I provided? NORAD tapes for multimedia section? BBC contemporary link? That Small sentence about years of Bush's rhetoric's in which he justified war in Iraq with How about those facts illustrated here in section called '''foreknowledge'''? Not to mention freefalls & missing planes and resurrected hijackers here… As I said article lacks neutrality, it is '''heavily disputed''', I asked you for a very small change, why are these small improvements neglected time and again? You can't have only those facts which suit's you (I'm not saying that article didn’t improve in last few days, but nevertheless); you can't marginalize vital information which is proven to be true… And those dwarf stars for keeping the official misinterpretation? Half of you have one? What is that? Please restrain from such magna cum nada honors… It just leaves the impression that editors here act as employees of the US government (especially so in retrospective and revision of this talk pages), the more you resist the more obvious that fact is… There is a whole lot of inter-linked articles here, but one shouldn’t care what's written around, readers who come here to inform themselves about the facts, won't go further & they surly won't get facts. -- ] 09:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

== The Jumpers ==

No I am not talking about a piece of clothing... I am thinking a section about the people jumping out of the windows above the section the planes hit to escape the toxic fumes and to have there "prefered way of death" should be added, as discussed in depth in the TV programme "The Falling Man" and shown in the infamous "Falling Man" Picture shown here the problem is that many people do not want to beleve this is true because some people see this as commiting suicide and most religions say if you commit suicide then you go to "hell" or the religions equivilant. ] 09:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
:I added a link from USATODAY in regards to the estimated number of folks that choose death by jumping over death by smoke an fire.--] 11:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

== FBI says, “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11” ==

- I think this is important to add in the Responsibility section. I did add it, but someone removed it, please discuss as to why it should not be added {{unsigned|81.179.70.98|11:47, 9 September 2006}}

Considering that Al-Jazeera recently aired the tape of bin Laden meeting with the hijackers, I think it's fair to say the two were connected.
] 16:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)/The Lizard Wizard

Is there a credible source describing the quote '''in context'''? It appears, if it wasn't a simple mistake (or a misquote), that 'hard evidence' is being used in its technical meaning in police procedures. No-one thinks Osama bin Laden was one of the hijackers. It doesn't the diminish the body of evidence indicating his involvement. ] 21:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

:Could you link a video of UBL with the hijackers, or someone like the FBI confirming the video? Thanks. I mean, if the FBI says that they have no hard evidence, then I doubt that the Wiki does, but I'm not sure. Also, a transcript of the video would be nice. --] 19:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC) Just a quick note: I don't think the video of UBL with the alleged hijackers debunks the shadow government theory. --] 19:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

::The following is my reply to the anonymous user's comment above, which he also copy/pasted into the ] discussion page:

::The link and the ] don't belong because the link is to a guy ranting about his conspiracy theory that the 9/11 attacks were the work of the U.S. government. He takes an out-of-context quote from Rex Tomb, and builds a case that the world's media are being controlled by some shadowy source within the U.S. government. He might be interested to find out what else Rex Tomb has to say about why 9/11 isn't mentioned on OBL's Wanted poster. Well, why isn't it?
{| cellpadding="10" align="center" style="border-collapse:collapse; background-color:transparent; border-style:none;"
| width="20" valign=top | {{Click|image = cquote1.png|link = {{FULLPAGENAME}}| width = {{{size|{{{2|{{{quotewidth|{{{width|20px}}}}}}}}}}}}|height = {{{size|{{{3|{{{quoteheight|{{{height|20px}}}}}}}}}}}}}}| The reason? Fugitives on the list must be formally charged with a crime, and bin Laden is still only a suspect in the recent attacks in New York City and Washington.

"There's going to be a considerable amount of time before anyone associated with the attacks is actually charged," said , who is head of the FBI's chief fugitive publicity unit and helps decide which fugitives appear on the list.
| width="20" valign=bottom | {{Click|image = cquote2.png|link = {{FULLPAGENAME}}| width = {{{size|{{{2|{{{quotewidth|{{{width|20px}}}}}}}}}}}}|height = {{{size|{{{3|{{{quoteheight|{{{height|20px}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
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{{!}} colspan="3" style="padding-top: 10px" {{!}} {{#if:{{{4|}}}|<p style="font-size:smaller;line-height:1em;text-align: right"><cite style="font-style:normal;">—{{{4}}}{{#if:{{{5|}}}|, {{{5}}}}}</cite></p>}}
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{| cellpadding="10" align="center" style="border-collapse:collapse; background-color:transparent; border-style:none;"
| width="20" valign=top | {{Click|image = cquote1.png|link = {{FULLPAGENAME}}| width = {{{size|{{{2|{{{quotewidth|{{{width|20px}}}}}}}}}}}}|height = {{{size|{{{3|{{{quoteheight|{{{height|20px}}}}}}}}}}}}}}| The absence has also provided fodder for conspiracy theorists who think the U.S. government or another power was behind the Sept. 11 hijackings. From this point of view, the lack of a Sept. 11 reference suggests that the connection to al-Qaeda is uncertain.


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Exhaustive government and independent investigations have concluded otherwise, of course, and bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings. FBI officials say the wanted poster merely reflects the government's long-standing practice of relying on actual criminal charges in the notices.
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"There's no mystery here," said FBI spokesman . "They could add 9/11 on there, but they have not because they don't need to at this point. . . . There is a logic to it."
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David N. Kelley, the former U.S. attorney in New York who oversaw terrorism cases when bin Laden was indicted for the embassy bombings there in 1998, said he is not at all surprised by the lack of a reference to Sept. 11 on the official wanted poster. Kelley said the issue is a matter of legal restrictions and the need to be fair to any defendant.
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"It might seem a little strange from the outside, but it makes sense from a legal point of view," said Kelley, now in private practice. "If I were in government, I'd be troubled if I were asked to put up a wanted picture where no formal charges had been filed, no matter who it was."
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* RM, September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks → September 11, 2001 attacks, '''Moved''', 17 January 2004, ]
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* RM, September 11, 2001 attacks → September 11, 2001, attacks, '''Not moved''', 21 October 2004, ]
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* RM, September 11 attacks → September 11, 2001 attacks, '''Not moved''', 13 October 2010, ]
* RM, September 11 attacks → 9/11, '''Not moved''', 31 March 2014, ]
* RM, September 11 attacks → September 11 terrorist attacks, '''Not moved''', 13 February 2021, ]
* RM, September 11 attacks → September 11th attacks, '''Not moved''', 14 February 2021, ]
* RM, September 11 attacks → September 11, 2001 attacks, '''Procedural close''', 23 February 2021, ]
* RM, September 11 attacks → 9/11, '''Not moved''', 26 January 2024, ]
* RM, September 11 attacks → September 11 terrorist attacks, '''Not moved''', 9 February 2024, ].
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::The 9/11 case against bin Laden hasn't gone to court yet, so the FBI doesn't list it. The "muckraker" blog is making a ridiculous argument: The U.S. shadow government, which cunningly deceived and continues to deceive the world by painting bin Laden as responsible for the 9/11 attacks, has somehow consistently forgotten to add 9/11 to bin Laden's FBI poster--even after "truth seekers" and "muckrakers" have pointed out the absence.
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::Regardless, as a thoroughly biased piece, this blog link does not belong in this article. It might fit in ], though. --] 00:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
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:::This article '''indicates''' a lot from one side, and '''neglects''' a lot from the other… -- ] 09:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
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::::The "other side" you mention is not credible. The patron saint of the movement, Steven Jones, is now on paid administrative leave because of the lack of credible research and evidence for his claims. ] 00:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
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:::That's irrelevant; Usama hasn't been put on trial for the other things listed under his name either. They haven't had a grand jury indite him yet, and the reason for that seems to be lack of hard evidence. This doesn't mean there is NO evidence he did it, but it seems to me that 9/11 was kind of important and if they could indite him, they would, given they did in fact indite him for the attacks on the ebassies in Africa. Of course, they could suspect that they'll never catch him so putting 9/11 under his name would be an unnecessary cost. Conversely, though, I do think it is significant that the FBI does not have hard evidence conneecting him, and has stated such. However, the context should be clear. ] 09:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
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:::If they have the osama trial, they'll have to have another trial for the 1.3 billion muslims who, thru their silence, have supported and encouraged him.
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::::What you say is just not true -- they do have hard evidence connecting OBL to 9/11. You just took one quote out of context. ] 17:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
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:::::It is absolutely true that Usama Bin Laden has not been indicted for the 9/11 attacks; it is absolutely true that Usama's FBI wanted page does NOT list 9/11 amongst the incidents he is wanted for. ] 20:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
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==Anything for the families?==
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OK, under effects of 9/11 in the sidebar table of contents thingy, there's an item for "audiovisual entertainment" of tv and movies that were changed or postponed, etc. because of the attacks, but I see no reference in the article to the effects on the families of those who have died, etc.
__TOC__

The paragraph about schools closing that I mentioned below seems to fit that topic..... I'm suggesting that a section about the effects on families and the grief perhaps be added. Or is that just too sappy? Is there any article out there on the 9/11 widows (and all the other folks who had lost family and friends in the attacks???) I'm still pretty new so I don't know all the ins and outs of how Misplaced Pages works, thanks.
] 19:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

::Bereavement is universal; we don't have a section for that on every war and disaster since what people feel is pretty much the same in every case, and we already have a general article for ]. If you mean particular actions taken by relatives in this specific case, then I think it would work; remember you can start it yourself!--] 01:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we can add something about the 36 children whose fathers died that day, even as they (the kids) were still in their mothers' wombs. ] 11:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==

As of this writing the article is vandalized. I am newly registered so I can't fix it. Someone please do. Might be agood idea to completely lock it, at least for today.

:It was a cache issue, the current article was quickly reverted. Purged the server cache, that should hopefully resolve it.--] 04:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Simply signed on to add- thanks for this. People are going to look at this page today (duh) and many of them don't want to be reminded of the blind silliness that some people engage in in their free time.--] 07:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

== Terrorist attacks ==

I am going to make it plain and simple. Do not add "terrorist" to the lead back. It will only be removed. --<small>] ]</small> 09:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:There is not better description of the action. Their actions were ones of terrorism.--] 09:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:--] 09:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::I absolutely concur with MONGO. The term, "terrorism" is appropriate in this case. It's been used by of the United Nations, and major news media in the , , , , , and the list could go on... There is wide agreement among countless ] that 9/11 was an act of terrorism. This has been discussed before, with consensus to leave the word terrorism in the intro. --] <small>(] ] ])</small> 10:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed endlessly in the archives. Since this page is linked from the ], it ought not be protected except for extreme circumstances. As such, I will summarily block anyone who chooses to edit war on this page until ]. --] (]) 10:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:I think semi-protection will definitely be needed. Just wait, please watch the page, and you will see that. --] <small>(] ] ])</small> 10:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::BTW, this article was fully protected for much of the day last year. --] <small>(] ] ])</small> 10:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

:::I've got the history window open right here, refreshing every few minutes. There will undoubtedly be others through the day. Protection will be applied as needed. --] (]) 10:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, the word 'terrorist' has to go. I don't case what discussion, polls ect have previosuly ocurred. It is not neutral and thus violates our non-negotiable ]. End of story. 'Terrorist' is a value judgement not a neutral description, it is thus an inherently unencyclopedic word. No doubt the UN (rightly IMO) would also describe the attacks as 'outrage' 'inhuman' 'offensive' 'criminal' 'obscene' and generally 'a ]' (and who'd disagree) but those aren't words you'd expect to find in an encyclopedic description).--] 10:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:Bullshit...if even the usually anti-American Kofi Annan can state unequivcally that the acts were ones of terrorism, then there is no reason, on this day to start fighting about changing it! --] 10:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::Oh heavens. The UN also describe the Israeli occupation of the west bank as 'illegal' - shall we begin the articles with on the West bank by stating that is is (fact) 'illegally occupied by Israel'. Of course not. Kofi has also said that the Iraq war was irregal. Shall we state as a fact that 'The 2004 US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal war'. Again of course not. Misplaced Pages does not do value judgements, no matter how widely they are shared. --] 10:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::NPOV is non-negotiable. Value judgements are never neutral. --] 10:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::::What is done in that article is not of concern to me...on this day, it's a bad day to pick a fight about the word that fully complies with the undue weight clause of NPOV. You know the link.--] 10:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Sorry, that argument does not apply. Sure, it would be a minority who'd reject the judgement that the attacks were terrorist, and we don't give undue weight to that. But that does not alter the fact that the label is a value judgement and not a fact. Misplaced Pages does not do value judgements. Although we can recored it is the value judgement of the majority. In any case, it isn't just Islamic extermists who'd reject the label, many who abhore 9-11 would recognise that 'terrorism' is a slipper and subjective term. --] 11:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::That is nonsense! The governments of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt, Pakistan, Bahrain and even Libya, all called the events acts of terrorism...publically and officially...so are they making "value judgements"? That's ludicrus.--] 11:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::They'd also all call it 'evil', shall we use that then as a factual description in the introduction?--] 11:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::They may have used that term as well, but the point is that the terms Terrorism and Terrorists were used officially by even countries that are predominently Moslem.--] 11:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::No doubt, but it is still a value judement. It isn't a neutral description. --] 12:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:I'll agree that ''terrorist'' has problems with NPOV, but to describe it as unencyclopedic does not seem to be plausible or accurate, considering even Britannica calls the hijackers terrorists and the event a terrorist attack. ] 11:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand how the murder of 3000 innocent people can NOT be called "terrorist." Please, today is 9/11. Let us pray for the souls of the deceased instead of insulting their memory by not terming those who so cruelly killed thousands of fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends, as terrorists. ] 11:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:That's a fallacy; note that the ] with more than 50,000 innocent deaths and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with 215,000 are not called terrorisrm.--] 13:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::What are you talking about? Japan attacked the US first? Haven't you heard of ]? Don't you know the war crimes they committed against American and British soldiers? Don't you know the Allies dropped warned the Japanese that if they failed to surrender, the US would bomb them? Don't you know that Iraq was under the rule of a Moslem dictator who was committing genocide against his own people? Don't you see the coalition troops (American, British, Canadian, Australian et al) laying down their lives to free the Iraqi people? How can you compare Iraq and Nagasaki with mindless Islamist barbarism? ] 13:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::I think I made my point clear; I didn't say that those are terrorist attacks, I said that your argument was a fallacy. The murder of innocent people doesn't make something a terrorist attack. Besides that I think you should read well about the necessity of the nuclear attack against Japan; there are some interesting opinions (even from people you could admire) ]. I'm glad you enjoy the fairy tales you are being told, yet I must warn you that subjective concepts like that of good and evil aren't suitable for politics; they are used by totalitarian governments to support their cause. I find ironic that you defend your government's cause with the same simple ideas used by your enemies.--] 16:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::I am not from the USA. ] 16:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
: An unwarned attack against the civilian population of a country not in a state of war is pretty much the dictionary definition of terrorism, isn't it? <b>]</b> 13:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of reliable sources call the acts terrorism. Calling them anything else would give undue weight to an extreme minority opinion. If there are reliable sources calling the acts something else, let's cite them and quote them. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

No. Even if any reliable source calls this incident of massmurder as any thing other than terrorism, we should not include that in the article, atleast today. How do you think some widowed lady and her (fatherless) children would feel if the Moslems who murdered her husband for the "crime" of being Christian would feel if they saw that in the article? ] 13:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:You don't need to be mawkish to sustain an accepted idea.--] 13:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
: Absolutely. If Cool Cat is intent on removing this text every time it is entered, then I will simply block him for ]. <b>]</b> 12:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::I've changed it to a direct quote from the UN ref given. I hope that will be an acceptable compromise for everybody. --] 13:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

::POV on the word terorism? You have got to be kidding me. That is some of the biggest nonsense that I have heard regarding 9/11. Want proof that it was terrorism? Terrorism's goal is to cause fear. This scared the crap out of millions of people. End of story.
Look at it this way- if today was Holocaust Memorial Day, would you guys be insisting that a Holocaust denial theory proposed by some Moslem dictator be included in the article about the Holocaust? No, you wouldn't because that would be an insult to the 7 million people who died in Nazi gas chambers. Well, today is a day when we remember the 3000 innocent men, women and children whose lifes were snuffed out by a new breed of fascists-Islamofascists. Referring to their murders as anything other than "terrorists" would be an insult to the deceased, who do not deserve to be mocked simply because they were Americans. If you are an anti-American, that's your wish, but please don't insult the departed. ] 13:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

:::Take it easy. And remember, please, that Misplaced Pages is ] a memorial, nor is it exclusively an American publication. Quibbling about the wording of the lead of this article does not amount to direspecting U.S. casualties. I think we are right to call it terrorism, hence my post above and my compromise in the article, but disagreeing with this would not make one anti-American, let alone be regarded as insulting the dead. Yuor comparison with the Holocaust is grossly inappropriate, in my view. Anyway, let's stick to writing an encyclopedia article here; it's what we do. --] 13:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The Holocaust victims were murdered by the Nazis for being Jews. The 9/11 victims were murdered by Islamofascists because they were not Moslem. What's the difference? ] 13:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:I asked you to take it easy. The Holocaust killed over a thousand times more people and went on for many years. 9/11 killed far fewer and was over in a day. There are two differences for you. Let's stick, please, to discussing ways to improve the article from now on, as that is what this page is for. Thanks. --] 14:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I am taking it easy and am sorry if it appears otherwise. I just don't like the idea of Islamists putting their warped ideologies into the article. ] 14:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Terrorism is ultimatley a subjective pejorative adjective. There is no agreed definition. Most people would describe these attacks as terrorist. Indeed to say they are 'not terrorist' is IMO offensive and morally indefensible. It is akin to saying that they are 'not evil', 'not wrong' or 'not unjustifiable'. However, these are all moral value judgements which an encyclopedia should not make (no matter how universally others make them). I believe Nazism was 'a bad thing', the holocaust was 'evil', and apartheid was 'inhumane'. But I don't think we want articles saying 'Hitler was a bad man', and I'm not defending Hitler in saying that. 9-11 was dreadful, and I could use 100 perjorative adjectives to describe it (none, actually, do it justice), but there really is not need. Let the facts speak for themselves without moral value-judgements. Describe what happened, record that most people condemn it, and it is almost universally called 'terrorist'. Sane people will draw their own conclusions, and NPOV will be upheld. And yes, my sympathy and prayers to those who mourn this day.--] 14:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:The whole civilised world calls these attacks "terrorists". I respect your intentions to be perfectly neutral, but there are times when being neutral is being insensitive. The things Al-Qaeda and other Islamofascists have to say about 9/11 need not be put in the article because if bin-Laden and his lot don't like this encyclopedia stating universally accepted facts, they are welcome to resume reading the Coron in their free time. Your intentions are doubtless good but I am saddened by the fact that Misplaced Pages is not doing enough to mourn this day- including not even mentioning the fifth anniversary on the mainpage. ] 14:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Also why did you guys delete the memorial an Australian gentleman put up for his mother who died that day? Please don't be so cruel. How would you feel if some Islamobarbarian killed your mom just because she refused to wear a headscarf? Spare a thought for those whose lives were torn apart that day. ] 14:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::Misplaced Pages is explicitly not intended as a memorial. The anniversary is very prominently mentioned on the main page though, under "on this day". --] 14:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:Doc, if someone says they were not terrorists, or that the act was something other than terrorism, I want a citation to a reliable source. I want to know who says, and what exactly they say. Absent that, I think we go with what the sources do say. The attackers were terrorists; everyone knows it; almost all reliable sources say it. Substituting our own preferred terminology is not neutrality; it is at best original research. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:While the events were sad, as was the loss of live (although loss of live occurs every day, much of it is partially or completely the result of human action), you might want to read up a bit before making up bullshit. There is little evidence to suggest the terrorists were inspired by the religious background of their victims. Indeed, a number of muslims were killed in the attacks (as victims) and there is a fair chance at least one of them wore a headscarf. As long as people like you continue to make up bullshit rather the read the facts, there is little hope for 'victory' in the fight against terrorism (of course this concept is itself problematic). ] 14:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::Please don't inflame the situation. This is a sensitive topic, especially on the fifth anniversary of the event. While I agree with your substantive point about it not being primarily a religiously motivated attack (indeed the article doesn't say it is either), we need to avoid terms like "make up bullshit" please. --] 14:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I didn't notice the mainpage mention-that was my fault. It should be more of a memorial rather than a factual statement though. As for Nil Einne, it is a fact that Al-Qaeda and other Islamobarbian groups have declared fatwas and dhimmis against "non-believers" in the religion of "peace". The number of Moslems killed on 9/11 was negligible compared to the number of Christian casualties. ] 15:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:You seem to be getting off track here. First you were arguing that the motivation for the attacks was to kill non-Muslims. Now you are arguing that various Muslims want to kill non-Muslims (just as various Christians want to kill non-Christians, various whites want to kill non-whites etc). This is completely irrelevant to the issue of the movitation of the people involved in the attacks. If a white supremist gets drunk and kills a black man in an accident while driving, this doesn't make that a hate crime, unless it wasn't an accident or he purposely took a route taking him into a 'black' neighbourhood or whatever. I have seen suggestions the number of Muslims killed may have been up to 300. While I have no doubt the number of Christians killed was higher, this doesn't change the fact that a number of Muslims were killed which would seem odd if the primary motivation was to kill non-Muslims. Perhaps the biggest nail in your coffin though is that the targets chosen and the nature of the attacks suggest the number of casulties was not the sole consideration. The targets and nature of the attacks strongly suggest a degree of symbolism was just as important. As for the memorial, this has already been address before (wikipedia is not a memorial). In any case, if we want to have a memorial, how about for the millions of slaves mistreated and killed? Or for the millions of people dying of disease, hunger etc? Or for the 1000+ Lebanese civilians killed recently? Etc etc... Finally, I make no apologies for my statements. While I try to be sensitive, you have to consider my feelings as well. People who make up bullshit highly infuriate me. I do think I was quite clear in my response I was not defending the terrorists or saying the attacks weren't wrong or anything of that sort. I was simply taking issue with the non-sense claims which are not supported by any of the facts. In any case, I will be leaving this talk page and not re-visting for a while. There is nothing more for me to say... ] 15:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::Yeah, OK, go read the Coran for a while. ] 15:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

::: I believe you are reffering to the "Qu'ran". What did you hope to achieve with this statement? A wikipedia user makes a clear and detailed argument about how they are trying to uphold wiki policy, but you happen to disagree with them but resort to making a frankly stupid and ignorant comment. I really find it hard to take your arguments seriously when you make such reckless and simplistic attacks on your opponents when they make a good point against you. --] 21:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You moral relativists have lost your goddamned minds if you think 9/11 cannot objectively be called terrorism.

(replying to various points). I'm not a moral relativist - I condemn these attacks in the strongest possible way - as do all right thinking people. I'm uninterested in what Bin Laden, his cronies, or those who would attempt to justify them think. I'm sure 99.5% of people would judge these acts as 'terrorist' - and the rest are a minority to discount (or record in a later paragraph). But my point remains that wikipedia should not make value judgements even when 99% of people do. This is not because we want to be sensitive to the minority (in this case, to hell with them), but because an encyclopedia records facts, and records opinions, it does not make judgements and pronounce opinions, no matter how universally those judgements or opinions may be held. We don't call Hitler 'evil', flat-earth theories 'wrong', or the holocaust 'inhumane', even if we ALL agree that those statements would be true. In actual fact, insisting that we need judgemental term in articles like this is almost to trivialise the subject - the facts, if properly recorded, speak for themselves. --] 18:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The logic here is backwards. "Terrrorism" is an objective term. '''Not''' using 'terrorist' to describe people engaging in terrorism would be imposing a PoV. (Random House Unabridged Dictionary: Terrorism: 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes. 2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.) ] 20:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:Seriously, what a bunch of bullshit.--] 20:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::MONGO, that's hardly a constructive contribution. --] 22:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

==Helicopter rescue==
"In any case, thick smoke and intense heat prevented rescue helicopters from landing." I flagged this as needing a citation; it may be that is better to just delete it as irrelevant, but I thought I'd raise it here first. --] 11:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:Found a reference for it.--] 11:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::Thanks for the quick work. Good ref too. --] 12:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

== New section ==

How about creating for example Popular culture (or Social impact) section? --] ] 13:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

== Sep 11 wiki link ==

I couldn't find a link to the , so I added it under "memorials". If there's been discussion about this link that I missed, please feel free to revert. --] 16:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

== Lead link ==

The lead link is currently to the U.N. I think that this like is acceptably broad and authoritative for the first sentence. Recently, someone tried to add a retrospective link (looking back after 5 years) to the middle of that sentence. Wouldn't it be better to move this link down somewhere into the body of the article, footnoting some summary of the ramifications? -] 16:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

:I'm trying, like you and everyone else, to make improvements to the article, addressing peopl's concerns about "terrorism" by attributing it it to cited sources. It might be useful if my changes, and the links I cite, could stay up at least long enough for someone to read them. I'm sure you are familiar with the ]. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

::Tom, I've reverted your work ONCE, and I left you a note on your talk page, suggesting that you re-add it, should you feel the need. HOWEVER, we are in the midst of a massive rush of vandalism (to the tune of 3-5 per min at peak), so don't be shocked if someone reverts your edit with what seems like haste. It's not personal, it's just what it is right now. Your edit was questionable IMHO (that's not an attack, just my feeling), but you seemed like an upstanding editor, so I went to lengths to bring it up for discussion. I invite others to share their opinions. Thanks, and happy editing! -] 17:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

::PS: With respect to the 3RR, I have not violated that policy, and have no intention of even getting close. I have reverted "suspect" edits once and then left them alone (none have returned, yet, save yours), and I have reverted outright vandalism (not covered by the 3RR) MANY times today. Your edit was not vandalism, and thus I did not revert it a second time, <s>though I do wish you would respond to my points, above. The U.N. link covers that whole sentence quite comprehensively, and I'd find it difficult to justify saying that the Guardian is a more authoritative source for either the first or second half of the sentence.</s> -] 17:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

:::Tom, in my haste, I didn't notice that you moved the link down. Nice job. I think that's a fine place for it. -] 17:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

And now we have a second editor actually moving the U.N. link out of the first paragraph! Can we please, decided specifically, what link we want to lead this article? IMHO it needs to be one that authoritatively addresses one of the two core assertions of the article: that the attacks happened or that they were acts of terrorism. Both are addressed by the U.N. link, so why do people not want to lead with that? -] 18:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

== Giving up ==

I've been asking for sprotection on this page on #wikipedia for a while now. No one seems to be available. I'm going to stop reverting, and let others take over for a while. The vandalism continues apace, and is making editing by reasonable users (such as Tom, above) difficult at best. sprotection would solve this. Someone, please take notice. Thanks. -] 17:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

:The unprotecting admin cited the 10-15 minute recommendation on the length of sprotects, but come on, this is nuts. It's pretty clear this article should be sprotected for the next 24 hours.--] 17:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

== Other Potential Terrorists, I mean, Hijackers=
The section about other potential terrorists (ok, hijackers) is quite long, and is given more attention than is probably needed in this main article. Anyone have a good idea for breaking this off into its own article and then shortening the section? If survivors and the hijackers sections are so small.... the potential hijackers section requires even less space, IMO. Thank you! ] 18:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh and if it's too difficult to edit today, I understand! ] 18:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

==Fatalities==
(I put this on top of the list yesterday when it should have been down here at the bottom --- still learning my way around Wiki...)] 18:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm finding the section on fatalities choppy -- the paragraph about schools closing, etc. almost seems like it doesn't fit under fatalities, except for the part about many people being from certain towns. Could the school closings be moved to another section (is there something about NYC area response / reaction??) -- Anyway, I think that at least the paragraph of school closings could be bumped down a paragraph or two to the end of that section -- it seems the paragraph about the city identifying people/bodies is better flow-wise....

Anyway, I didn't want to change it w/o running it by here. ] 18:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


== Settling the "Islamist" debate once and for all ==
== Other hijackers - Moussaui (sp?) ==
{{hattop|]. This conversation has been done to death and we will not repeat endless debates because of one user's obstinance. — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 15:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)}}
Would it really be so bad if the article merely addressed this controversy, without picking a side? It's clearly a contentious issue among editors and unless ''something'' is done, it's just going to be a recurring issue on this talk page forever. I propose that yes, the word "Islamist" should be removed from the initial paragraph because it doesn't sufficiently contextualise the term, which is why it's considered stereotyping and offensive by some editors.


But to make up for it, a paragraph could be added explaining that Misplaced Pages editors are in disagreement over whether to call the attacks "Islamist", presenting a detailed overview of the pros and cons of each side. This will of course mention the main argument on the pro-Islamist faction, that being that reliable sources use the term. If anyone wants to workshop this idea into a full paragraph with me, that would be very helpful.
It seems like the part about the Moussaui (sp??) trial under other hijackers is getting way off-topic about 9/11. This content probably belongs under Moussaui's own biography entry, and doesn't make sense in the 9/11 article. I find it very distracting and off-topic to the article.....
Probably best not to edit today because of all the crazy changes going on, but I wanted to point it out. Would someone please help with this when there's a chance? Thanks. ] 18:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


I'm not here to pick a side, I want to come up with a compromise that works for everyone. I'm personally neutral on this, but I hate to see edit warring and recurring talk topics raised on it. Put aside your personal investment in your "side" "winning" and lets have a proper discussion like adults. ] (]) 00:37, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
== Need to re-order paragraphs under Reaction ==


:Where's there a debate? Do we have any sources for this? <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 00:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
I think that the Public Response section should come first, then International Reaction.. (logically starting with the reactions closest to the tragedy, then the rest of the world).
::Removing "Islamist" from the article has been edited into the article and reverted many times. Any time it has gone to the talk page it has been rejected with seemingly no progress on addressing the grievances of the multiple different editors who object to the phrasing of this article's opening paragraph. They usually say that it violates NPOV and perpetuates unfair stereotypes of Islam.
::The editors changing it back assert that because reliable sources use the term "Islamist", it does not need qualification or justification in this article.
::I'm hoping that some compromise between removing and not removing "Islamist" from the opening paragraph can be reached and editors can stop being so all-or-nothing about the issue. ] (]) 01:19, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:::I guess welcome back is in order...... but you are correct..... it has been removed a few times resulting in blocking of editors. You are free to present any source that there is a debate in this topic. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 01:31, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
::::I'm not referring to some debate off-wikipedia, I am talking about this article's talk page and its edit history. ] (]) 01:39, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
:We do not add paragraphs to an article just to outline a debate Misplaced Pages editors are having on the Talk page. Plus, the debate wrapped up months ago, you're dragging out something that died off because it didn't have support, aka ]. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 15:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
:We go by what RS say we are not ] just to appease some people's feelings. ] (]) 15:10, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
{{hatbottom}}


== "]" listed at ] ==
The paragraph about Guantanamo Bay under International Reaction is more appropriate to the next section about U.S. Government Response -- it should fit in there somewhere...probably under War on Terrorism.
]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 7#2001 attacks}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 17:26, 8 October 2024 (UTC)


== "]" listed at ] ==
I also feel that the Alternate Theories blurb (listed under Reaction), might better fit under the Motive section.
]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 7#2001 terrorist attacks}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 17:26, 8 October 2024 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2024 ==
Not editing today because of all the traffic, but wanted to note these suggestions. ] 18:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


{{edit semi-protected|September 11 attacks|answered=yes}}
:I would wait until tomorrow for major work on the article. The number of vandal edits means that we're going to need to go through this article with a fine-toothed comb tomorrow to make sure nothing snuck through. A major section re-org would just make that harder. -] 20:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
At the bottom of the rebuilding and memorials section, add "The Onion satirical news source made humor out of the whole situation. They are still cherished today." ] (]) 02:30, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 10:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)


== Hatnote ==
:I agree. This would be a poorly chosen time to try to work out any difficult issues. ] <sup>]</sup> 22:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


@], the reason given for the addition of the {{tlx|Distinguish}} hatnote was not reasonable: this event was not even a "bombing" as such. Especially given the distinct titles of the two articles, there's no real justification to me that these two would be confused in the context of how this hatnote is used. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 08:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
== REMOVE THE TITLE PICTURE ==
:I think otherwise, but whatever. - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">] <small>(])</small></span> 08:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)


== RfC on lead collage of photos ==
The picture on this article must be removed now. Read if for some deities sake, its telling people to call 911 and hold the phone.
<!-- ] 03:01, 28 January 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1738033268}}
{{rfc|hist|rfcid=92F7E6E}}
I'd like to understand why we don't keep than the old-fashioned image montage in the article at the moment. Besides, is obviously better in terms of framing and resolution, as well as showing the exact moment when the second plane crashed into the WTC. ] (]) 21:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:'''Support'''. I prefer your version; it's a better representation of each attack. – ] 05:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:I prefer the current version. And how is the current version "old-fashioned"? — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 12:59, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:59, 25 December 2024

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Q1: Is the article biased against conspiracy theories? A1: Misplaced Pages is a mainstream encyclopedia so this article presents the accepted version of the events according to reliable sources. Although reliable sources have repeatedly reported on conspiracy theories, reporting on conspiracy theories is not the same thing as advocating conspiracy theories or accepting them as fact. The most recent discussion that resulted in the current consensus took place on this talk page in December 2011. If you disagree with the current status, you are welcome to bring your concerns to the article talk page. Please read the previous discussions on this talk page and try to explain how your viewpoint provides new arguments or information that may lead to a change in consensus. Please be sure to be polite and support your views with citations from reliable sources. Q2: Should the article use the word "terrorist" (and related words)? A2: Misplaced Pages:Words to watch states that "there are no forbidden words or expressions on Misplaced Pages". That being said, "terrorism" is a word that requires extra attention when used in Misplaced Pages. The consensus, after several lengthy discussions, is that it is appropriate to use the term in a limited fashion to describe the attacks and the executors of these attacks. The contributors have arrived at this conclusion after looking at the overwhelming majority of reliable sources that use this term as well as the United Nations' own condemnation of the attacks.
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In the newsOn this day... Article milestones
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February 26, 2004Featured article reviewDemoted
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In the news News items involving this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "In the news" column on September 11, 2001, and September 11, 2002.
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This article has been viewed enough times to make it onto the all-time Top 100 list. It has had 89 million views since December 2007.
This article has been viewed enough times in a single year to make it into the Top 50 Report annual list. This happened in 2011.
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 14 times. The weeks in which this happened:
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
  • RM, September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks → September 11, 2001 attacks, Moved, 17 January 2004, Discussion
  • RM, September 11, 2001 attacks → September 11, 2001, attacks, Not moved, 21 October 2004, Discussion
  • RM, September 11, 2001 attacks → September 11 attacks, Moved, 20 August 2008, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → September 11, 2001 attacks, Not moved, 13 October 2010, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → 9/11, Not moved, 31 March 2014, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → September 11 terrorist attacks, Not moved, 13 February 2021, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → September 11th attacks, Not moved, 14 February 2021, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → September 11, 2001 attacks, Procedural close, 23 February 2021, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → 9/11, Not moved, 26 January 2024, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → September 11 terrorist attacks, Not moved, 9 February 2024, discussion.
The contents of the World Trade Center/Plane crash page were merged into September 11 attacks on 11 September 2001. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history.
The contents of the Slogans and terms derived from the September 11 attacks page were merged into September 11 attacks on 22 October 2015. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.
Section sizes
Section size for September 11 attacks (45 sections)
Section name Byte
count		 Section
total
(Top) 19,430 19,430
Background 5,368 55,357
Osama bin Laden 7,896 7,896
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other al-Qaeda members 4,597 4,597
Motives 20,052 20,052
Planning 9,949 9,949
Prior intelligence 7,495 7,495
Attacks 3,414 74,754
Crashes 27,987 27,987
Casualties 30,667 30,667
Damage 9,984 9,984
Rescue efforts 2,702 2,702
Reactions 3,391 57,859
Immediate response 8,781 8,781
Domestic reactions 7,805 17,806
Hate crimes 5,471 5,471
Discrimination and racial profiling 1,846 1,846
Muslim American response 1,681 1,681
Interfaith efforts 1,003 1,003
International reactions 17,734 17,734
Military operations 10,147 10,147
Aftermath 88 44,372
Health issues 9,907 9,907
Economic 7,127 7,127
Effects in Afghanistan 7,023 7,023
Cultural influence 4,157 4,157
Government policies towards terrorism 9,749 9,749
Legal proceedings 6,321 6,321
Investigations 21 32,122
FBI 9,379 9,379
CIA 2,195 2,195
Congressional inquiry 6,274 6,274
9/11 Commission 4,194 4,194
National Institute of Standards and Technology 6,076 6,076
Alleged Saudi government role 3,983 3,983
Rebuilding and memorials 32 20,064
Reconstruction 8,774 8,774
Memorials 11,258 11,258
See also 1,222 1,222
References 17 76
Notes 28 28
Citations 31 31
Bibliography 10,519 10,519
Further reading 2,890 2,890
External links 5,115 5,115
Total 323,780 323,780

Settling the "Islamist" debate once and for all

WP:DROPTHESTICK. This conversation has been done to death and we will not repeat endless debates because of one user's obstinance. — Czello 15:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Would it really be so bad if the article merely addressed this controversy, without picking a side? It's clearly a contentious issue among editors and unless something is done, it's just going to be a recurring issue on this talk page forever. I propose that yes, the word "Islamist" should be removed from the initial paragraph because it doesn't sufficiently contextualise the term, which is why it's considered stereotyping and offensive by some editors.

But to make up for it, a paragraph could be added explaining that Misplaced Pages editors are in disagreement over whether to call the attacks "Islamist", presenting a detailed overview of the pros and cons of each side. This will of course mention the main argument on the pro-Islamist faction, that being that reliable sources use the term. If anyone wants to workshop this idea into a full paragraph with me, that would be very helpful.

I'm not here to pick a side, I want to come up with a compromise that works for everyone. I'm personally neutral on this, but I hate to see edit warring and recurring talk topics raised on it. Put aside your personal investment in your "side" "winning" and lets have a proper discussion like adults. 94.196.3.224 (talk) 00:37, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Where's there a debate? Do we have any sources for this? Moxy🍁 00:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
Removing "Islamist" from the article has been edited into the article and reverted many times. Any time it has gone to the talk page it has been rejected with seemingly no progress on addressing the grievances of the multiple different editors who object to the phrasing of this article's opening paragraph. They usually say that it violates NPOV and perpetuates unfair stereotypes of Islam.
The editors changing it back assert that because reliable sources use the term "Islamist", it does not need qualification or justification in this article.
I'm hoping that some compromise between removing and not removing "Islamist" from the opening paragraph can be reached and editors can stop being so all-or-nothing about the issue. 94.196.3.224 (talk) 01:19, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
I guess welcome back is in order...... but you are correct..... it has been removed a few times resulting in blocking of editors. You are free to present any source that there is a debate in this topic. Moxy🍁 01:31, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
I'm not referring to some debate off-wikipedia, I am talking about this article's talk page and its edit history. 94.196.3.224 (talk) 01:39, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
We do not add paragraphs to an article just to outline a debate Misplaced Pages editors are having on the Talk page. Plus, the debate wrapped up months ago, you're dragging out something that died off because it didn't have support, aka WP:DROPTHESTICK. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
We go by what RS say we are not wp:censored just to appease some people's feelings. Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"2001 attacks" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect 2001 attacks has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 7 § 2001 attacks until a consensus is reached. SeaHaircutSoilReplace (talk) 17:26, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

"2001 terrorist attacks" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect 2001 terrorist attacks has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 7 § 2001 terrorist attacks until a consensus is reached. SeaHaircutSoilReplace (talk) 17:26, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2024

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At the bottom of the rebuilding and memorials section, add "The Onion satirical news source made humor out of the whole situation. They are still cherished today." Fedmonger (talk) 02:30, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Charliehdb (talk) 10:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Hatnote

@FlightTime, the reason given for the addition of the {{Distinguish}} hatnote was not reasonable: this event was not even a "bombing" as such. Especially given the distinct titles of the two articles, there's no real justification to me that these two would be confused in the context of how this hatnote is used. Remsense ‥ 论 08:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I think otherwise, but whatever. - FlightTime (open channel) 08:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

RfC on lead collage of photos

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I'd like to understand why we don't keep this photo collage much more representative than the old-fashioned image montage in the article at the moment. Besides, the main image I suggested is obviously better in terms of framing and resolution, as well as showing the exact moment when the second plane crashed into the WTC. Chronus (talk) 21:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Support. I prefer your version; it's a better representation of each attack. – Anne drew 05:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
I prefer the current version. And how is the current version "old-fashioned"? — The Hand That Feeds You: 12:59, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
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