Talk:Dave Carter: Difference between revisions

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			{{Talk header}}
	==Were he and Tracy Grammer married?==
			{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=Start\|living=no\|listas=Carter, Dave\|
	Were he and Tracy Grammer married to each other or just musical partners?
			{{WikiProject Biography\|musician-work-group=yes\|musician-priority=}}
	:To the best of my knowledge, they were not married to each other, though their relationship has been described as a "marriage of music" and "musical love at first sight." Confusing, I know ^_^. ] 21:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
			{{WikiProject Oregon\|importance=Low}}
	::They always seemed to be pretty coy about this, but then again what does it matter? I found the following on their web site -] 22:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
			}}
	:::''THE DAVE CARTER & TRACY GRAMMER STORY - Thursday, December 12, 2002''
			{{COI editnotice}}
	:::''Tracy Grammer first saw Dave Carter perform at a songwriter's showcase shortly after she moved to Portland, Oregon. "As far as I was concerned, the rest of the room disappeared at that point. I knew instantly that I was in the presence of greatness." They met on their way out the door and by early 1998 had entered into a mutual "marriage in music."''
			{{Connected contributor
			\|User1=Tracygrammer \|U1-EH=yes \|U1-declared=yes \|U1-otherlinks=Disclosure made
			}}
			{{Archive box\|]
			}}
			== Consistency ==

			The sources seem to refer to Dave Carter as "he", but the article goes back and forth between "he" and "she". I'm not sure what Carter would have preferred as I never heard of this person before. It's confusing that all of the direct quotes say "he" but then the article says "she". Thoughts? Better sources? ]] 08:27, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
	They were not married to each other, as made clear by the fact that Grammer got the rights to the Dave Carter catalogue from his widow. ] 22:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
	:Widow? If the ] article is to be believed: ''Tracy Grammer Music, made arrangements with Elise Fischer, David's sister and copyright owner...'' In any case, you're probably right that there was not a legal marriage. Ah well, this probably isn't a good place for us to be speculating about these things. -] 23:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

			As the surviving partner of this musical and romantic partnership, I believe it is important that we honor the transition in progress, which has been done quite lovingly. But I would like to suggest that since Dave Carter never had the privilege of introducing his transgender identity to the world, we not take it upon ourselves to do it posthumously. He did not arrive, as it were, at his destination. And the feminine was yet without a name. Indeed, she is without a history of any kind, professionally speaking, as Dave presented male for the duration of his career. Let's let the record stand. ] (]) 17:41, 24 October 2016 (UTC)"Tracygrammer"
	::Hm. Lemme check into that - it may have been sister. But in any case, if they were married, such arrangements would not have happened. ] 23:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

			=== 2020 ===
	== The Dave & Tracy relationship / Estate management / Song ownership ==
			:Someone has put "her" for "Dave" Carter and it is confusing as hell, from the very second sentence, even to someone who knows about his transition. (It reads as though it suddenly switched to Tracy Grammer.) I'm not changing it only because I don't want to go through the whole article and I don't want to play in the anticipated edit war, but it is a poor decision, and contrary to what ] has recommended. I hope someone will change this back so ordinary readers can understand what's being said. ] (]) 23:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

			:: Upfront, this is not a subject in which I have any experience, so I don't know what the policies/guidelines are{{Snd}} following is just my own opinion as a somewhat experienced editor. Running into the "she" pronoun in the lead is just plain confusing, and gets more confusing as one reads on. That totally distracts from the content of the article, which should not happen. The insertion of the "" in front of "he" in quotes is also distracting. Assuming the ] section is accurate (which, AGF, agrees with Tracy's account above), I think the article should use the pronoun "he" consistently and quotes should be reverted to their published form. The topic and timeline of the potential/pending transition is well-explained in that section{{Snd}} there's no reason to effectively contradict it by using the wrong pronoun in the rest of the article. <span style="color:red">—] (])<span style="color:red">]—</span> 18:47, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
	In answer to previous discussions:
			::* To clarify, the distraction is because of there being no mention of the gender transition until much later in the article, which is understandable, given the timeline expressed. I'm not trying to say that the distraction alone is an inconvenience that we shouldn't be forced to deal with{{Snd}} just that it's distracting because it's unexplained and looks like a mistake (which turns out to be true in this case). As a ], I might be more distracted than others.{{Smiley}} <span style="color:red">—] (])<span style="color:red">]—</span> 19:11, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

			*First and foremost, Misplaced Pages is all about reliable sources. Are there any reliable sources where they explicitly state that they identify as female? If not and taking into account their transition, I'd be leaning towards neutral pronouns of they, them, and their. However, are there any reliable sources where the subject states they are transitioning? I'm not saying those that have revealed the information are lying, but this issue surrounds ''self identity''. From reading the above comments I presume there are no reliable sources where they state they were in the process of transitioning or that they identify as female, so the pronouns used should be male. – ].].] 19:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
	Tracy Grammer met Dave Carter in 1996. By the end of that year, they had begun playing music together. In 1997, a romantic relationship was in bloom. David and Tracy lived together from 1999 to 2002 and referred to themselves in interviews as "partners in all things." They preferred to keep the focus on their music, rather than their romantic relationship.
			* ] says:
			:{{tqqi\| Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article. <br> Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Avoid confusing constructions (Jane Doe fathered a child) by rewriting (e.g., Jane Doe became a parent). Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "" may be used where necessary)}}
			Thus if the use of female pronouns (she) is to remain, an explanation should be added early in the article. If, however, there is no reliable source in which Carter expressed a female identity, or an intention to assume one, female pronouns should not be used. In thqt case I think that {{u\|Squared.Circle.Boxing}} is correct and male pronouns should be used. {{U\|Tracygrammer}}, do you kn ow of any reliable sources not already cited in the article that bear on this issue? Does anyone else? ] ]] 22:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
			{{Od}}
			So this issue has now been open (this time) for 2 months and I see no argument or sources to support retention of the "she" pronouns. Last call for objections (including procedural) before I revert the edit that did it (and then reapply the later fixes)? <span style="color:red">—] (])<span style="color:red">]—</span> 17:48, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
			: {{Done}} Pinging {{U\|Tracygrammer}}. <span style="color:red">—] (])<span style="color:red">]—</span> 19:54, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

			Thanks for pinging me. I've spoken with Dave's sister, Elise Fischer, on the matter of the tug-of-war over re-gendering Dave Carter posthumously in Misplaced Pages. We agree the he/him/his should stand, given that David expressed as male, personally and professionally, up until his death. He had not spoken of the transition publicly. ] (]) 19:09, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
	In May 2002, David moved to an apartment in NW Portland while Tracy stayed in Tigard, Ore. Their romantic relationship was in transition as David began to pursue a gender change. Still, in their last interview with John Platt of WFUV just days before David's death, the two referred to themselves once again as "partners in all things."

			== External links modified ==
	David's Estate was administered by his ex-wife, Brenda Howard, from a will dated 1991. Brenda and David remained close friends throughout David's life. However, Brenda had not been involved in David's career and there was considerable acrimony in the settling of this Estate and the dissolution of the Dave & Tracy partnership. Tracy's offer to purchase David's song catalog was rejected and the songs were sold instead to David's sister, Elise Fischer. Elise and Tracy later agreed that Tracy would administer the catalog while Elise maintained ownership. ]

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:You have any citations for any of that? ] 16:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

			I have just modified 4 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	::I, Tracy Grammer, submitted the above. What citations would you like? - Tracy Grammer
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111025002945/http://itp.edu/currents/articles/alanlomax.php to http://www.itp.edu/currents/articles/alanlomax.php
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928082153/http://daveandtracy.globalhosting.com/index.php?startrow=30 to http://daveandtracy.globalhosting.com/index.php?startrow=30
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061101021758/http://www.johnsmithmusic.com/Reviews.htm to http://www.johnsmithmusic.com/Reviews.htm
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070719081442/http://daveandtracy.com/ to http://daveandtracy.com/

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	:::I say this with the greatest respect, to someone I respect and admire even unto the point of awe: Anyone can claim they're you. (It's against Misplaced Pages policy to impersonate a public figure: see ].)
	:::Look at it from the point of view of this somewhat established Wikipedian--lots of deeply personal stuff, stuff not traceable to any known interviews or public information, including revelations that could potentially be perceived as defamatory (wrongly, let me hasten to add, but there is still a lot of prejudice against LGBT people), is posted from a person whose account was created that same day. It raises some red flags, is all. One explanation is that you are who you claim to be. The other explanation is... less savory. And, since I care about Dave and his ''oeuvre'' and want to keep his page accurate, I asked. (I cannot speak for ], of course, but I do know that 1) he is an admin, and 2) he's been editing Dave's page since waaaaaay before me, so I presume that his motivations for requesting cites were similar to mine.)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	:::Proceeding from the good-faith assumption that you're really Tracy, welcome aboard! Please consider adding your name to the ] page, as well as asserting your identity on your own talk page. There is also an extant policy on ] which you may find of interest.

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 20:12, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
	:::] 23:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC) (and updated 04:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC))

	----

	Yeah... cites? I knew Dave, a little, and I have enormous difficulty believing that he had gender dysphoria. Or that anyone but his parents and sister ever called him "David". :) ] 22:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

	:Why the difficulty believing Dave had gender issues, if you only knew him a little?

	:As for "David" vs. "Dave," the change to the casual came about just before we started working together in the late 1990's. Before that, he was known as "David" professionally and academically. - Tracy Grammer

	::See above on 'red flags'. :) Certainly I didn't know him well (much as I liked him)--he just struck me as a man who was happy and confident within his own skin, that's all. Pre-transition trans people that I have known have tended to be palpably, desperately unhappy. (The "Dave/David" thing was a joke, intended to soften the "feel" of my 9 September post. Sorry if it came across wrong. That wasn't the intent.)
	::] 23:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

	==Confirmed==

	I've confirmed via e-mail that ] is Tracy, and have added the information provided to both this article and ] after consulting with ]. ] 18:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	=== Querry re: the above on noticeboard at ] ===

	I have some concerns about our rapid inclusion of the above into articles. Despite being told that there's nothing to worry about, I've posted a querry at ]. My hope is to hear the opinions of editors that deal regularly with ], but editors here may wish to comment as well. -] 23:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

	:'''Response''' ] isn't in play here. Short answer: The subject of the article is dead. Long Answer: The spirit behind BLP is to protect living people from ] in wikipedia articles. These kind of actions require ] as opposed to ] philosophy. Since the subject is dead, the risk of of defamation moves from an uphill battle to full ]. :) ]
	:Misplaced Pages can not currently be a reliable source for wikipedia ]. It also can't be used for Original Research ], however, facts are facts. To include the information on the talk page, move it to a Verifiable, Reliable Source for inclusion on wikipedia. A page the widow creates at say a davecarter.com would suffice. ] 12:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
	::This is a foolish and hair-splitting use of OR - as well as a foolish and hair-splitting use of BLP. The concern about defamation is not a legal concern but an ethical one, and I would hope, for instance, that BLP did not simply walk away from ] two weeks ago. As for the use of OR, what practical, as opposed to semantic difference is there between posting to her website and to the talk page. Both are self-published, both are primary sources, both are just as verifiable and reputable. Given that her identity is confirmed - which it is - there is no practical difference here. Application of rules without pausing to think is destructive. ] 13:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
	:::I don't see factual backups to explain why interpretations are "Foolish and hair-splitting"? The primary reason BLP exists is legal, not ethical. Ethical reasons are important (Neutral point of view, Reliable Sourcing, Verifiability...etc) but are left sorted out in articles with editors. Persons involved with BLP, ] and the noticeboard are looking for four specific defaming things in articles that need to be thrown out NOW, not eventually. ]
	:::The reason we have Verifiability, Reliable sourcing is to prevent "He said, she said" things in wikipedia. Just because two admins say it is so does not mean it is so. There is no way to reliable determine source and accuracy statements made on wikipedia talk pages and accounts by nature of the medium. Misplaced Pages can not be used as a reliable source for wikipedia. ]
	:::BLP walks away significantly from ] upon death, but not completely, as defamation against Steve may be defaming to his wife and family as well. As for ], I see no defamation against ].
	----
	http://www.marcus-bonsib.com/article.jsp?practArea=20&articleIndex=1

	Can You Defame a Dead Person?

	In most states, you cannot defame a dead person, because a lawsuit for defamation does not survive the death of the person allegedly defamed. In essence, the reputation of a dead person is left to history. Note, however, that a statement made about a dead person may defame a living person. For example, if someone claims that your deceased mother was not married to your father when you were born, when in fact your mother was married to your father when you were born, it has been falsely claimed that you are a bastard.

	----
	:::So lets conclude. Misplaced Pages talk pages are unreliable, dubious sourcing for an article. No defaming statements are in the article, BLP is not needed. I will archive this at BLP/N. ] 01:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

	== Sources ==
	This is an encyclopedia. Finding good references is important. Here are a few good reputable, external sources for Dave and Tracy related articles that other editors might like to pursue. Beware that Misplaced Pages itself is generally not considered a vaild ]. ] should not be added to articles. Feel free to suggest others for this list:
	* FOLKDJ-L http://www.folkradio.org/ Dave and Tracy songs regularly have and continue to top the lists for folk airplay, someone could do an analysis, statistics date back to 1998. Maybe a look at the year-end stats would do.
	* '']'' Articles, songs, reviews:
	** v45#1,''Sing Out! Spotlights: Dave Carter and Tracy Grammer'' an article by Matt Watroba
	** Last Courus, v46#3 -- Dave Carter Obituary by Matt Watroba
	**Song's with notes
	***"When I Go" v43?
	***"Tilman County" v44#3
	***"The Mountian" v45#1
	***"Hey Ho" v49#3
	**Album reviews
	***''When I Go'' -SO! v44#2 see bottom of pg 19 in
	***Jim Henry, ''One Horse Town'' v50#2?, Collaboration with Grammer, includes a D. Carter song.
	***More reviews if one looks...
	* '']''
	** Bio of D&T from 2001
	** Note about Tracy's first solo, actually uses the phrase "partner in all things."
	** Review of Verdant mile (sometime in 2005)
	* '']'' #57 May/June 2005, ''Tracy Grammer'' feature by Russel Hall

	-] 18:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

	:It is misleading to say that Misplaced Pages is a primary source here. A comment on a talk page is the primary source. ] 18:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
	::Was it a wikipedian on wikipedia talk page? -] 20:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
	:::I'm genuinely baffled as to why you're so insistent on this point. Do you actualyl have any doubts, or is this process for process's sake? ] 20:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
	::::Its not just about process, we need to get this right. I'll explain more on your talk page. -] 21:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
	:::::Do you sincerely think we didn't get this right? ] 21:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
	::::::Mostly right, you are just relying on a source (wikipedia talk) that noone will ever claim as reliable. ] 01:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
	:::::::"Right" counts for nothing. We need ]. --]<sup>]</sup> 02:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
	::::::::The bulk of ] was written as an attempt to block specific sources from specific, pathologically bad articles. It was not created with any thought to the general case - the article that is not the target of crazed POV pushers and other nutjobs. It does not and cannot apply as a general case, which is why the vast majority of articles on Misplaced Pages look at it, and then proceed to try to figure out what sorts of sources are reliable for this topic - a practice that extends from the featured articles on down. Please - explain to me what is unreliable or unverifiable. Do you doubt that the post was made to the talk page? That it was made by Tracy Grammer? That she is a reputable source? Which part is problematic, exactly. Explain in terms of the case in front of us - because if policy is blocking a case that there is no reasonable way to doubt, policy is in error, and ought be ignored. ] 02:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
	===More sources===
	* {{allmusicguide \| id = 11:bhuh6j3h71u0~T1 \|label = Dave Carter}}
	* at folkweb.com
	* by ], August 2, 2005 on ]

	Possible external links:
	* with playing tips from Ron Gritz--] This is great if you're a guitarist. Once I heard Dave himself refer people to this site.
	* ]
	* ]

	-] 20:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

	==Who is Brenda Howard?==
	New York Times obituary says "Besides Ms. Grammer, he is survived by his father, Robert Carter, of Tulsa, Okla., and a sister, Elise Fischer, of Lawrence, Kan." No mention of "ex-wife, Brenda Howard" there or . But we do have an article ]. And says "Tracy Grammer thanks Elise Fischer and Brenda Howard for co-chairing the memorial fund committee". ] 11:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
	:I don't know anything about her. But, I would assume that the wikipedia article ], is not about Carter's ex-wife/estate mgr. There doesn't seem to be much information about Carter's Howard, I gather that she is not a public figure. -] 14:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

	==Re-added content==

	I have added the content back in, now citing WikiNews, as per Jimbo's suggestion when I contacted him on the matter. I hope this is an acceptable solution to everyone, remembering that part of the purpose of WikiNews was to create a free news source for citation in Misplaced Pages regarding current events. ] 04:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

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Consistency

The sources seem to refer to Dave Carter as "he", but the article goes back and forth between "he" and "she". I'm not sure what Carter would have preferred as I never heard of this person before. It's confusing that all of the direct quotes say "he" but then the article says "she". Thoughts? Better sources? —PermStrump(talk) 08:27, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

As the surviving partner of this musical and romantic partnership, I believe it is important that we honor the transition in progress, which has been done quite lovingly. But I would like to suggest that since Dave Carter never had the privilege of introducing his transgender identity to the world, we not take it upon ourselves to do it posthumously. He did not arrive, as it were, at his destination. And the feminine was yet without a name. Indeed, she is without a history of any kind, professionally speaking, as Dave presented male for the duration of his career. Let's let the record stand. Tracygrammer (User talk:Tracygrammer) 17:41, 24 October 2016 (UTC)"Tracygrammer"

2020

Someone has put "her" for "Dave" Carter and it is confusing as hell, from the very second sentence, even to someone who knows about his transition. (It reads as though it suddenly switched to Tracy Grammer.) I'm not changing it only because I don't want to go through the whole article and I don't want to play in the anticipated edit war, but it is a poor decision, and contrary to what Tracygrammer has recommended. I hope someone will change this back so ordinary readers can understand what's being said. Zaslav (talk) 23:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Upfront, this is not a subject in which I have any experience, so I don't know what the policies/guidelines are – following is just my own opinion as a somewhat experienced editor. Running into the "she" pronoun in the lead is just plain confusing, and gets more confusing as one reads on. That totally distracts from the content of the article, which should not happen. The insertion of the "" in front of "he" in quotes is also distracting. Assuming the Dave Carter#Transgender identity section is accurate (which, AGF, agrees with Tracy's account above), I think the article should use the pronoun "he" consistently and quotes should be reverted to their published form. The topic and timeline of the potential/pending transition is well-explained in that section – there's no reason to effectively contradict it by using the wrong pronoun in the rest of the article. —— 18:47, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

To clarify, the distraction is because of there being no mention of the gender transition until much later in the article, which is understandable, given the timeline expressed. I'm not trying to say that the distraction alone is an inconvenience that we shouldn't be forced to deal with – just that it's distracting because it's unexplained and looks like a mistake (which turns out to be true in this case). As a WikiGnome, I might be more distracted than others. —— 19:11, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

First and foremost, Misplaced Pages is all about reliable sources. Are there any reliable sources where they explicitly state that they identify as female? If not and taking into account their transition, I'd be leaning towards neutral pronouns of they, them, and their. However, are there any reliable sources where the subject states they are transitioning? I'm not saying those that have revealed the information are lying, but this issue surrounds self identity. From reading the above comments I presume there are no reliable sources where they state they were in the process of transitioning or that they identify as female, so the pronouns used should be male. – .O. 19:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
MOS:GENDERID says:

Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article.
Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Avoid confusing constructions (Jane Doe fathered a child) by rewriting (e.g., Jane Doe became a parent). Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "" may be used where necessary)

Thus if the use of female pronouns (she) is to remain, an explanation should be added early in the article. If, however, there is no reliable source in which Carter expressed a female identity, or an intention to assume one, female pronouns should not be used. In thqt case I think that Squared.Circle.Boxing is correct and male pronouns should be used. Tracygrammer, do you kn ow of any reliable sources not already cited in the article that bear on this issue? Does anyone else? DES _{DESiegel Contribs} 22:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

So this issue has now been open (this time) for 2 months and I see no argument or sources to support retention of the "she" pronouns. Last call for objections (including procedural) before I revert the edit that did it (and then reapply the later fixes)? —— 17:48, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Done Pinging Tracygrammer. —— 19:54, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging me. I've spoken with Dave's sister, Elise Fischer, on the matter of the tug-of-war over re-gendering Dave Carter posthumously in Misplaced Pages. We agree the he/him/his should stand, given that David expressed as male, personally and professionally, up until his death. He had not spoken of the transition publicly. Tracygrammer (talk) 19:09, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

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