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:''The previous talk, about Copernicus' nationality, is now at ]'' |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Copernicus, Nicolaus|1= |
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{{WikiProject Astronomy|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|core=yes|s&a-work-group=yes|s&a-priority=Top|a&e-work-group=yes|a&e-priority=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Christianity|importance=Top|lutheranism=yes|lutheranism-importance=Low|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Low|anglicanism=yes|anglicanism-importance=Mid|saints=yes|saints-importance=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Economics|importance=low}} |
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{{WikiProject Former countries|Prussia=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject History of Science|importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Philosophy|importance=Mid|philosopher=yes|medieval=yes|science=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Physics|importance=High|bio=yes|hist=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Poland|importance = Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Religion|importance=Top}} |
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== 1497:Canon of Frauenburg == |
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''Poland had parts of Prussia occupied, tried to annex and wanted to have Polish coins in Prussia. |
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The cities of ], ] and Thorn did not want to give up their individual sovereign rights and |
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continued coining money. In 1519, 1522, and 1529 Copernicus published ''Money Reform Memoranda''. His 1529 writings |
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stated in part : |
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The current WP article refers of his son Andreas in the role of Augustianin canon of the Cathedral of Frauenburg. But the same charge took to Nicolaus, in 1497, when he was in Italy yet (source: Holmes Charles Nevers, Popular Astronomy, Vol. 24, , in ]). |
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" Woe to you, unfortunate Prussiland, that you should have to suffer for such a bad money management!.. If we do not have relief here soon, then Prussia is soon going to have only coins left, which contain nothing but copper. Then all trade with foreign countries would stop. Which foreign tradesman would want to sell his merchandise for mere copper?... Such a break-up of Prussiland is silently observed by the big powers; they let our beloved fatherland, to which we owe everything, to which we owe life itself, from day to day collaps miserably.." |
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(excerpt from ], Copernicus, describing Prussia during the civil wars leading to the Reformation, transl by H. Jonat).'' |
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The same information is also provided by {{cite journal|first1=David Eugene|last1=Smith|author-link1=David Eugene Smith|url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927718/?page=5|title=Medicine and Mathematics in the Sixteenth Century|PMC=7927718|PMID= 33943138|journal=Ann Med Hist.|date=July 1, 1917|volume= 1|issue=2|pages=125–140|format=PDF|OCLC=12650954|access-date=July 15, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210515201754/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927718/pdf/annmedhist148575-0021.pdf|archive-date=May 15, 2021|url-status=live}} (here cited p. 129). This book dates back to 1917 and is also an alternative source about the Copernicus' masters of mathematics and astronomy: Peuerbach, Regiomontanus, Domenico Maria, and Brudzewski. All of them are actually sourced by a unique monography (Dobrzycki and Hajdukiewicz (1969)). Regards, Theologian81sp |
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== A monumental scandal == |
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An enormous bulk of evidence about Copernicus having been ethnically German and of Polonising German topography has been "archived". The present article carefully avoids the terms German or Polish for the ethnicity of the man because the evidence is clear that he was German - with a German father and a German mother, who will have taught him the German and not the Polish language. And the article Polonises all place names in Prussia that got Polish names only in the 20th century, but misses out on Danzig. - A monumental scandal and a disgusting disgrace. ] (]) 23:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC) |
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I'm really sorry, but this is just another attempt to throw in the Poland-Prussia debate in another guise. The manner in which the quote is presented, as well as the translation (there really ''is'' no such thing as Prussiland in English, and ''fatherland'' is doubtful at best), are simply unacceptable. Moreover, if this is a translation of someone's Latin-German translation, than I think that fatherland is simply the Latin patria -- VERY different than the context Helga would like us to accept. Again, there has been so much time spent on this, that it's bordering on the ridiculous. Still, as a professional historian, I cannot sit by and allow this blatant misrepresentation. People in Copernicus' time really didn't understand ethnicity and nationality in the same way that you want to believe, Fr. Jonat. And, contrary to what you may believe, i don't care if Copernicus is Polish, German, or even Thornisch! Gianfranco is correct about placing the man's accomplishments first. What I do care about is that the debate and the entire issue of nationality are framed within the proper context: that context is one of people with an ideological interest allowing that interest to shape a view of history that is in fact inaccurate. ], Tuesday, May 21, 2002 |
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:True, but both sides have valid arguments, it's best to leave nationality out of this ] (]) 19:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC) |
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PS: Hermann Kesten's undoubted brilliance as a dramatist and author aside, he was doubtless a man of his time. He was educated at a period when ethnic nationalism permeated the teaching of history, and when it was not only acceptable, but normal, to write history with underlying motives. Today, historians are expected to take the biases and background of the author into consideration. Moreover, we are expected to be more critical of historians who do seem allow their viewpoints to shape their presentation of history. I'm sorry, but all authors are not equal, and some scholarship is better than others. We should try to keep this in mind. |
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::No they don't it's not even a discussion. He was quite obviously ethnically German but wikipedia is leftist political propaganda at it's finest. This site truly has become a disgrace. ] (]) 11:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I would say Misplaced Pages is Western-centered and racist towards Eastern and Central Europeans with figures such as Copernicus or Sklodowska-Curie being Westernized in articles (which itself on the main webpage with news and trivia mentions in 90% only West-related things and takes Western perspective. Ergo, it's not international but English/West-centered. |
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:::Now not mentioning Copernicus nationality because it's not relevant is fairly silly concerning the fact that somehow other figures of that time like let's say Durer or Caravaggio magically have some nationality. ] (]) 20:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:The current article represents a hard-earned consensus, after monumental disruption by editors who aggressively espoused competing assertions of nationality. Please don't start that again. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 19:59, 29 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:We have been through this. Several times. There are definitive arguments for Copernicus being a loyal subject of the Polish crown in territory ultimately subject to the Polish king - which is a good definition of being Polish. There is the definitive argument of Copernicus subscribing to the German Natio in Bologna and his suriving works in German (and Latin). The rest is more or less speculation (some more, some less). We DO know that this debate runs over centuries now, and finding a consensus here took a decade or two. Just accept him to be in the heritage of both nations, at best a connecting rather then a dividing aspect of history. ] (]) 06:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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::He was Half-Polish by birth, German in name, but he lived in Poland, it half because Lived in Poland+Half polsh= Half Polish, and German in name+Half German=Half German ] (]) 09:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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What is this? |
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:::NO. What's that even supposed to mean? By birth? He was born in a German family in a German build, German inhabited city. You people are insane. ] (]) 11:49, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::It is likely his father was a Germanized Pole, he also spent years in Polish cities and universities, such as ] in Krakow. ] (]) 11:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::The definition of leftist isn't anything you happen to disagree with. In fact, the view of Copernicus as Polish is popular with the Right in Eastern Europe. ] (]) 12:02, 9 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::This is nonsense. His father Mikołaj Kopernik, after whom Copernicus got his name and surname, was a Pole from Kraków, his mother Barbara Watzenrode was a German from Toruń. Copernicus himself was born in Polish Prussia, spent his childhood there, then graduated from the Kraków Academy and later several other European universities, then returned to Poland and actively fought against the germanization of Prussia by the German Teutonic Order. He took part in the Polish-Teutonic War of 1519–1521 on the side of Poland. You can't make a full German out of him, no matter how much you want to, don't rewrite history. ] (]) 16:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::>"This is nonsense." |
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:::::Is it necessary to start your contribution this way? You could simply present your source. Especially when... |
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:::::>"His father Mikołaj Kopernik, after whom Copernicus got his name and surname, was a Pole from Kraków" |
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:::::... makes these sources obligatory. The problem is that there is no primary source that can confirm this, just speculation from various scholars, who often have their bias - unless I am mistaken and new evidence was unveiled. Coming from Krakow is no proof of cultural heritage with around 20% Germans there at that time. |
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:::::There is not much that we DO know for sure, and I already listed it. It is insufficient to decide one way or the other, and Misplaced Pages can but record it this way. |
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:::::Both Poland and Germany had multicultural states on their territory back around 1500, with cultural Poles living in Germany and cultural Germans in Poland - a status that creates many people in between and that continues one way or the other since today. If anything, Copernicus ambiguity in that regard embodies this bond. ] (]) 12:02, 28 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Neitzer Germany nor Poland had ever multicultural states on their territories. ] (]) 09:23, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::The HRE, the Empire, covered Frisians, French, Italian, Danish and many Slavian areas. There were also many German areas outside of it. |
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:::::::The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth included, beside Germans and Hungarians, a multitude of Slavic cultures from the Baltics through Ruthenia to the Black Sea. ] (]) 06:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:The Polonising of the names of German cities and regions that became occupied by Poles only in the 20th century is infantile, mad and disgusting. ] (]) 09:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::And this is not a forum for nationalist complaints. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 12:29, 14 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::If in doubt, use the regulations of the Gdańsk (Danzig) Vote. See the intro of this article. ] (]) 06:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Silesian roots == |
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"His father was a merchant from Kraków (Krakau) and his mother was the daughter of a wealthy Toruń merchant.[13" |
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But: the father´s side of Upper Silesian and the mother´s side od Lower Silesian origin. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:11, 26 December 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br> |
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Why (Krakau)?] (]) 23:45, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Nicolaus Copernicus|answered=yes}} |
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In the "Commemoration" section of the article, in the subsection titled "Poland", in the second paragraph change the " in Poland's third largest city, Łódź." to " in Poland's fourth largest city, Łódź." |
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In the article the city of Łódź is called Poland's third largest city. In the data provided in the (data from 20th July 2023), the population of Łódź city has dropped and currently city of Wrocław has surpassed Łódź in the number of population. ] (]) 10:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> This is also verified and cited on the ] page. ] (]) 18:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Nicolaus Copernicus|answered=yes}} |
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in the Work section, "till" is used in "(or perhaps till his uncle's death on 29 March 1512)" and i believe this should be changed to until ] (]) 16:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 17:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-protected status? == |
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I propose that this article be given extended-protected status. It is experiencing an onslaught of neo-nazis. ] (]) 17:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Successors == |
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The article's "]" section states that "Scholars hold that sixty years after the publication of ''The Revolutions'' there were only around 15 astronomers espousing Copernicanism in all of Europe..." |
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That implies that all the 15 listed would have survived to the year 1603. |
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Of course, this was very far from what officially accepted in dominant culture. And even farther from the actually ruling religious influence on science was the following conclusion that an infinitive reality rendered ''de facto'' impossible the hypothesis of an external "engine", an entity that from outside could give a soul, a power and a life to the World and to Human beings. No ], the most evident inspiring theme of ] at that time, could find an explanation in such a cosmic system, none of the most basic ]s of ] (but of other religions too, the same way) could be compatible with such a revolutionary theory; besides, this opened a way to ] and ], which remained and developed in modern philosophy. |
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At least two of them died before then: ] (1550) and ] (1574). |
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Given that immanentism is the logical foundation of ], that finds inside the Man the principles that rule thought, history and reality, some find that Copernicanism demolished the foundations of medieval science and ], therefore giving a start to a general movement that would have brought modern thought to rebel against the ] and the authoritarism of traditional thought. |
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] (]) 04:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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Correctly, his innovation has been quite unanimously defined as a real revolution (despite the unwanted ''calembour''). |
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== Nationality == |
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], for instance, caught the symbolic character of Copernicus' revolution (of which he put in evidence the trascendental ]) underlining that, in his vision, human rationality was the real legislator of the phenomenical reality; Copernicanism was in a winning opposition against the scientific and philosophical ], a quite subjective position (in a Kantist sense) meant to fight against the ruling dogmatism. |
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Should we assume Copernicus' nationality can be ]? ] (]) 23:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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More recent philosophers too have found in Copernicus a still valid and valuable philosophical meaning, properly used to describe the position of the modern man in front of cultural traditions. A so-called ''Homo Copernicanus'' was then by some described like that modern man whose central themes are to be found in ordinary human problems, as a general cultural reference. |
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:Do you have NEW evidence that goes beyond those that have been debated here for a decade or two? |
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:If not, leave it as it is. |
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:See my above comment that starts with "We have been through this". ] (]) 22:40, 12 December 2024 (UTC) |
The current WP article refers of his son Andreas in the role of Augustianin canon of the Cathedral of Frauenburg. But the same charge took to Nicolaus, in 1497, when he was in Italy yet (source: Holmes Charles Nevers, Popular Astronomy, Vol. 24, p. 219, in SAO/NASA Astrophysics Data System (ADS)).
An enormous bulk of evidence about Copernicus having been ethnically German and of Polonising German topography has been "archived". The present article carefully avoids the terms German or Polish for the ethnicity of the man because the evidence is clear that he was German - with a German father and a German mother, who will have taught him the German and not the Polish language. And the article Polonises all place names in Prussia that got Polish names only in the 20th century, but misses out on Danzig. - A monumental scandal and a disgusting disgrace. 2001:9E8:25F:FD00:E9AB:E4CF:D944:B901 (talk) 23:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
In the "Commemoration" section of the article, in the subsection titled "Poland", in the second paragraph change the " in Poland's third largest city, Łódź." to " in Poland's fourth largest city, Łódź."
In the article the city of Łódź is called Poland's third largest city. In the data provided in the Polish Misplaced Pages (data from 20th July 2023), the population of Łódź city has dropped and currently city of Wrocław has surpassed Łódź in the number of population. BlueBlack22 (talk) 10:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
in the Work section, "till" is used in "(or perhaps till his uncle's death on 29 March 1512)" and i believe this should be changed to until Maddybac (talk) 16:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
I propose that this article be given extended-protected status. It is experiencing an onslaught of neo-nazis. Meellk (talk) 17:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
That implies that all the 15 listed would have survived to the year 1603.
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Done This is also verified and cited on the Łódź page. Jamedeus (talk) 18:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)