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== Derailed opening paragraph(s) ==
The source for these claims come from “Gene Epression/scienceblogs” and deal with “Blood of the British” and “Nerd/Geek/Dork - my breakdown.”


The opening provides a clear explanation on J. Philippe Rushton, his work, and his criticisms. However, the second paragraph derails and spends half its time discussing the Pioneer Fund, rather than the individual. While it's important to consider the individuals surroundings, the depth of the Pioneer Fund is slightly excessive. I wouldn't usually consider this noteworthy enough of creating a section in the Talk Page, however I am creating this pre-preemptively to avoid an edit war on the subject. ] pinging you for reverting the change, feel free to explain how removing one sentence is "whitewashing", or a "large amount" of sourced material, or how I am an IP editor, or alternatively, how this was not a minor edit. From my experience editing many pages and providing ample sources on various subjects, I would not consider any of those statements to be true. ] (]) 00:30, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
None of this has much to do science, let alone “brain size genes." I have removed this portion from the article. If you continue to reference non-existent research or cite bogus sources I will see that this article is removed.
:Skllagyook was completely correct to revert your edit. Your edit was by no stretch of the imagination a minor edit; please read ]. Rushton was intimately associated with the Pioneer Fund, and so it's important from the start to explain what the Pioneer Fund is. ] (]) 00:48, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
:: I stand corrected regarding ]. Thanks ] (]) 16:38, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
:{{PING|Dr-Bracket}} Regarding describing you as an IP editor, I must have not been paying enough attention and been thinking of another page at the time. That was my mistake. My appologies. Otherwise I concur with ], whose reasoning is similar to mine on the issue. ] (]) 02:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)


==what position is closest to his views==
The referenced source. http://www.scienceblogs.com/gnxp/
I am a little confused by some of the recent changes in wording. Did Rushton generally hold that a/ genetics ''completely'' explain racial differences in intelligence, or b/(less strongly) that genetics was ''the major factor'' in intelligence", or just c/ that genetics was merely ''a significant factor'' in intelligence or d/ even only that genetics was ''a factor'' in intelligence? I realize he worded it different ways at different times, but what was his predominant or general view, or did perhaps his views change in a recognizable direction over time? If there was a change, what was his more recent position?


It seems that statements deploring or supporting his views might choose one or another of these positions as a summary, but that does not mean they were accurate in doing so . I would imagine that someone who wanted to minimize his difference from the consensus might want to say d/, and someone who thought his views totally unacceptable might choose to word it a/ --- but which of these very different ideas represented his general view? ''']''' (]) 05:54, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
==New study==
Boy, I'm not sure if I want to wade into this article, judging from the general level of vitriol, but I thought I'd at least post this: (from the 14 September 2006 ''Daily Mail'') ''British-born researcher John Philippe Rushton, who previously created a furore by suggesting intelligence is influenced by race, says the finding could explain why so few women make it to the top in the workplace...He claims the 'glass ceiling' phenomenon is probably due to inferior intelligence, rather than discrimination or lack of opportunity.'' I've not found the actual study yet, and from the news item I can readily come up with major criticisms, but it was deemed newsworthy and is probably Misplaced Pages-worthy... -- ] 05:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


:I'm not sure precisely what ''recent changes in wording'' you're referring to, but the statement by his former department on the matter is perfectly clear: {{tq|Rushton’s works linking race and intelligence are based on an incorrect assumption that fuels systemic racism, the notion that racialized groups are concordant with patterns of human ancestry and genetic population structure. This idea is rejected by analysis of the human genome .... Moreover, Rushton’s work is characterized by a complete misunderstanding of population genetic measures, including fundamental misconceptions about the nature of heritability and gene-environment interactions during development.}} ] (]) 06:40, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
:<s>Well, that only goes to show how much of a bigot the man is.</s> (stricken by author of comment)--] 11:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
:: The departmental ''damnatio'' doesn't address the question.


:: Rushton (d. 2012) published polemical papers with Jensen in 2005 and 2010 promoting the hereditarian account of group IQ differences. The abstract of one of the papers says that they argue for 50 to 80 percent genetic contribution, so at least toward the end he held the mostly genetic position, (b). However this kind of specific estimation of heritabilities and genetic influences seems more to come from Jensen, who wrote about it in other places and was always specialized in intelligence. Rushton's prior views may not have been expressed in quantitative terms as he was as seeking a grand pattern involving "all" trait differences and he switched his research interests several times. ] (]) 10:23, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
:: This seems to be the reference: Jackson, D. N., & Rushton, J. P. (2006). Males have greater g: Sex differences in general mental ability from 100,000 17- to 18-year-olds on the Scholastic Assessment Test. Intelligence, 34, 479-486. ] 15:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


::: It seems to me to be rather idle chatter to be discussing precisely what percentage of the racial IQ gap Rushton attributed to genetics. Just as much as it would be idle to discuss what percentage of missing hikers some "Bigfoot expert" attributed to Bigfoot predation. Absent reliable independent sources, this has no bearing on what belongs in the article, per ] of course: {{tq|Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles.}} ] (]) 15:53, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
:::And this is in contradiction with how many studies that find no difference or only negligible ones?--] 15:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
:::: The idle question of Rushton and percentages is already implicit in the article ("partial genetic" re IQ). Whether or not that section is what prompted DGG to ask, we both exercised the same freedom to post replies, even if only one of those actually answered the question.
::::In fairness, he does seem/claim to provide an explanation for this. Havn't read the paper yet, it's sitting in my printer tray. ] 15:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
:::: Bigfoot is a familiar trope from the R&I Talk where there was a short thread on it that I opened shortly before your arrival. It is easy to locate as the only section in the archives with Bigfoot in the title. There was no serious reply at the time, but if you know of any reason (other than social disapproval, speculation on motives and other such "human factors") why Bigfoot, alien abductions and the like are pseudoscience, that also applies to R&I hereditarianism, please feel free to be the first to reveal what it could be. Of course it's possible for a hypothesis to be intelligible, testable, adequately empirically motivated and still fail or be a crank magnet, but the Bigfoot trope is the bald assertion that none of those prerequisites apply to R&I and it is pseudoscience on its face. Maybe it's more like dingoes abducting hikers' children, than Bigfoot abducting hikers, and there is no a priori answer through confident sneering. ] (]) 05:44, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
:::::Well, he does also provide a nice, logical explanation for why "Blacks have lower intelligence". Doesn't mean he's right. Let us know when you've read the paper. :) --] 15:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
*Late to this discussion: could you explain what changes you are concerned about? seems generally to be an improvement. In general in the context of a scientific biography, reliably sourced documentation of the subject's opinions of what gives rise to oberved heritability claims seem reasonable even if those opinions are held for unscientific reasons. &mdash; ] <small>]</small> 18:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
:: Don't know about recent changes, but the article says "proponent of the idea that racial differences in IQ are partially related to genetic inheritance" which understates Rushton's position, i.e., 50 to 80 percent of average group differences, plus a package of related differences on several clusters of other traits, are genetic. I don't know if other sources about Rushton or Jensen quoted their estimate, but there should be enough in reviews of Rushton's earlier work to make clear that he argued for large and meaningful genetic differences on "everything", including intelligence, and not the mere existence of some nonzero genetic difference for IQ. ] (]) 19:33, 13 February 2022 (UTC)


== Consensus on race and intelligence ==
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.intell.2006.03.005 --] 16:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
:Boy, after reading the abstract... there's an awful lot of easy pickings to tear this study to shreds. My institution doesn't subscribe to the journal, so I can't pick it up now, but I hope to in the future. Is it time to add an "Intelligence and gender" section to this article? -- ] 19:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
::Actually, there is already an article on ].--] 19:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Yeah, I know, but I meant as a subsection in ''this'' article to discuss his latest work. ] hasn't been updated since this study came out, so it could probably use some of the new info. -- ] 19:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


The section on "Race and intelligence" summarizes Rushton's views, and then adds:
::::I go to the University of Western Ontario, and the study is already being torn to shred by the head of the department of psychology. In the campus newspaper the head of the department says something like "I've given up trying to argue with him...he seems to like subjecting himself to ridicule"...the article points out that to prove intelligence he uses SAT scores which have been known to be systemically bias for decades ] 21:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
"Rushton's view that a genetic connection exists between race and intelligence is rejected by a broad consensus of scientists today."
:::::Well if he said in the campus newspaper you should be smart enough to know he's probably saying it for political reasons. What better way to score points with the female students than to ridicule Rushton. Rushton's scholarship is actually superior to 99% of academics, it's jus that he's held to a much higher standard because he has the courage to research controversial issues. Rushton could be completely wrong, but he's outstanding in his scholarship, integrity, and originality. ] 01:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure why this needs to be mentioned at all (I think it might be part of the FRINGE policy?), but I don't like the current wording. It's not supported by the current sources (even after ] helpfully added one that specifically rejected Rushton's views), and I think it is misleading. Two of the three sources claim there is a consensus that observed IQ differences between races are not due to genetics. The last source rejects the concept of biological races (but claims no consensus). Summarizing this as there being a consensus against "a genetic connection between race and intelligence" seems misleading (and I don't think that consensus exists). If Rushton used IQ results to claim that some races were biologically predisposed to have a higher IQ than others, this view can be pointed out to be contrary to consensus. Can someone point me to where the current wording originates from? ] (]) 03:02, 17 February 2022 (UTC)


:Indeed, this or similar language is required by ]. And the scientific consensus on the matter is clear. See this RfC from last May: ]. ] (]) 03:30, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
:::::And btw, SAT scores may actually be less biased than standard IQ tests, in that the ] for SAT scores is much less than IQ suggesting the measurement is more stable. ] 01:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


::Thank you! That RfC does indeed support the current language. However, the sources provided in this article still don't. Perhaps the RfC you linked to contains better/more explicit sources? Or perhaps I'm misreading the claim? ] (]) 05:20, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
::::::I'm glad to hear you have such a high opinion of Rushton compared to 99% of academics, 134.117.83.241, but I don't think your singular character assessment brings forth NPOV. If you could put aside your obvious admiration for the man, and help us improve the article bit by bit, I would greatly appreciate the help. In particular, please let us know where you think POV is being pushed the other way, so we can edit to appropriately address your concerns. Thanks! --] 06:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


:::I'm not sure that I understand the problem. You acknowledge that {{tq|Two of the three sources claim there is a consensus that observed IQ differences between races are not due to genetics.}} It doesn't seem necessary to quibble about the third. ] (]) 06:05, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
::::::: 134.117.83.241, do you honestly think I pick up chicks by badmouting a douche like Rushton ? I suggest in future that if you want to argue a point of prejudice you sign in with a username. The quote I am refereing to is "I have given up debating him and just marvel at the longevity and consistency of his willful ingorance" which was said by Prof Bob Bailey director of environmental research at western. This quote is taken from the UWO Gazette from Friday Sept 15 vol 100 issue 10. I will scan in the entire article and see if I can post the jpg somewhere...unfortunatly the Gazette website does not have an up to date digital archive. ] 21:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


::::If you don't think there is any meaningful difference between the current language and "there is a consensus that observed IQ differences between races are not due to genetics", will you let me change the wording in the article to the latter? ] (]) 02:49, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
==Edits and reverts==
Would Users Minorcorrections and Liketoread please discuss their edits on the talk page rather than just reverting to their own version? These edits were reverted by the regular editors of this page for a reason (I presume it has something to do with POV). Thanks!--] 17:56, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
:I have been asked this question in the edit summary. Since I didn't think to reply directly in the edit summary, here is my reply here:
::Q:Ramdrake if you were interested in making this article better why have tags been on for months.
::A:Because I sincerely think these edits do not improve this article but rather just make it biased and POV.--] 23:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
:::But you've done nothing to improve the article for months so obvioulsy couldn't care less about it, as long as nothing that defends Rushton's scholarship or character is added. The article as it stands is nothing put a series of quotes and half the article isn't even about Rushton but about broader disputes over race. Many of the quotes are not even about Rushton or his theory but about race in general, and Rushton's ideas and methods are attacked without showing his side of the story. Also, what's with ridiculous terms like continent African ancestry group. Just call them Blacks, Whites, and North East Asians, since these are the primary goups Rushton studies. If you want to use broader labels say Caucasian and East Asian. ] 01:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
::::You have every right to have Rushton as your personal hero, but to say things like anthropologists agree with his view of the "evolution" of races is pushing it a bit, not to mention totally unreferenced. If you want to add stuff, I strongly suggest you please do two things: 1) reference every affirmation that's not totally obvious. 2) Discuss any and all major changes before making them, otherwise you run the risk of being systematically reverted. Regards,] 02:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Rushton's not my personal hero I just respect academics who are not afraid to say what they really believe publicly since so many are dishonest about their true views. And I'm not the one who added the changes you describe but since I support those changes, let me make it clear that the splitting off sequence Rushton draws on is not controversial. It's broadly accepted that modern humans evolved in Africa and that the split between Europeans and North East Asians is relatively recent. I'm shocked that anyone here would even require a citation for something so basic but I'll do my best to add one. ] 02:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::Please, 134.117.83.241 (who apparently is located in Ontario, where Rushton is a professor), the "split" Rushton describes is very peculiar to his own beliefs - anthropologists do not assert that any "splitting" arbitrarily stopped evolution in its tracks - Rushton uses the splits to describe a linear evolution, when in fact (notwithstanding the high degree of mixture we all have), if anything, the "splits" only divide us into distant cousins, not earlier and later evolved life forms. I'm glad that you respect Rushton, but trying to serve as an apologist for his racialist beliefs is POV pushing. Let's work together to improve the article, and address your concerns one at a time. What would you like to address first? --] 06:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::JereKrischel you've misunderstood Rushton's theory. Nowhere does Rushton suggest that splitting stopped evolution in its tracks. What an absurd statement that reveals a total misunderstanding of evolutionary biology. I'm very concerned that you don't have the understanding to be editing science related articles. ] 18:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Please, ]. I think JK has demonstrated an understanding of the issue more than sufficient to speak to this issue. You, on the other hand, by stubbornly reverting to your version, seem to be demonstrating a lack of flexibility. Please remember that WP can only advance through the cooperation of its editors. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask that changes be discussed here '''fully''' ''before'' being implemented on the article page.--] 18:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::No I assure you from JereKrishel's comments he has no understanding of evolutionary biology, and if you think he does then you have no understanding of evolutionary biology. Of course human populations are cousins, and this is true of all life on Earth, and has nothing to do with the subtle point Rushton's making. And you are demonstrating a lack of flexibility with your kneejerk reverts that prevent progress to be made to an article that's been tagged. If you really were interested in being flexible, instead of reverting back to a version that's been tagged as POV, you would fix problems with the changes that you object to. I have not seen any attempts from you or JereKrischel to make the article more neutral or to improve the quality in any way, despite the fact that you both watch it like a hawk. But if other people want to come in and improve the quality of the article, you two have not earned the right to stop them. ] 19:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


:::::I see no major reason to object but wanted to make sure that we connect the statement directly to Rushton, so I went ahead and made a ] suggestion in the article. Happy to discuss if you still find it unclear. ] (]) 04:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::Please, Liketoread, I'm sure we can work together to make this a better article. Your edits are POV pushing, and as Ramdrake has pointed out, other editors are respectfully disagreeing with you and asking you to address one issue at a time with us. This is a consensus driven endeavor, and I know that we can work together to find that consensus. Please, pick one particular issue you have a difficulty with, and let's focus on that, come up with a viable compromise, and then implement it. Thanks! --] 19:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


::::::Thank you, I like your new wording much better! Specific and to the point; and clearly supported by the sources. (Except maybe the word "broad"? One of the sources describes the consensus as "emerging", which seems to emphasise almost the opposite of "broad".) ] (]) 11:23, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::The primary issue I have a problem with is that the article is very POV in that it makes plenty of room for all of Rushton's critics including people who are not even criticising Rushton at all, but the concept of race in general; but you revert new editors who are trying to add comments by Peter Knudson which show that prior to researching controversial issues, Rushton was seen as highly competent. In addition, you quote a criticism of Rushton applying r/k within a species within the social class theory section, but revert data Rushton cites showing that such criticism is misguided. Also, in the race section the article implies that Rushton thinks there are only 3 races, when from the outset Rushton has acknowledged the existence of other races outside the big 3. Also, I agree with the poster that we should use simple terms to describe the genetic clusters like North East Asians, Caucasians, and Blacks. In short the article is very poorly done and I would hope that you would not discourage the efforts of new editors with kneejerk reverts especially since unlike you and Ramdrake, these new editors appear to have read Rushton's book. ] 18:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


:::::::Thanks. In response to your point about describing the consensus as "broad", I've offered what I hope is an acceptable compromise. ] (]) 17:31, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::::To start with, several of your key additions aren't cited. Second, the racial terminology has already been discussed at length here, and the current terminology was the consensus of many editors, not just JK and myself. For the r/K hypothesis, several issues are left out, among which the fact that the proponents of the hypothesis have stated that their model ''is not meant'' to be applied within species, so your quote from Rushton in his self-defense doesn't hold too well. Another thing is also the Peter Knudson quip, which says nowhere that Rushton was seen as highly competent ''until'' he started researching controversial issues. Without this context, it is but only quote-mining. And although Rushton has ''acknowledged'' the existence of other races, he still pools everyone from around the world as just 3 races. I could go on, but I guess you get the gist of it. If you want to bring up your changes one at a time, we can discuss them calmly. As they are, they do not help the article, nor its POV balance. In short, the edits were such that it was better to revert them than to try to fix them (which happens often enough). You can bring all the points and proposals up on the talk page and we can discuss them one by one.--] 19:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


::::::::Thanks, I have no more complaints! ] (]) 23:47, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Liketoread, I understand your concern about POV. Can you be specific with just one example to start with? That is to say, quote a small section you feel is POV, explain why you believe it to be so, and propose an alternative for us?


:::::::::Sweet, I appreciate your thoughtful engagement. ] (]) 02:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
In response to your "Asian/Black/White" terminology, I'll briefly recap the previous discussion. Rushton uses "Mongoloid/Caucasoid/Negroid" in his writings. Someone came in and wanted to change that because the terms were "obsolete", and Rushton has in recent writings used both his old terms, and newer terms. The best practice for groups was found on the , and it was decided if we didn't want to use the "obsolete" terms, we could use the best practice terms asserted by NLM.

If you'd like to blanket change back to "Mongoloids/Caucasoid/Negroid", I wouldn't have a problem with it, since they are the terms Rushton historically has used. However, interpreting his "oids" into Black/White/East Asian is an unacceptable gloss I think. The only reasonable alternative to the "oids" is the NLM best practices, IMHO. --] 21:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

:For the record, I wouldn't oppose the "oids" terminology either.--] 21:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
::For the record, the terms Rushton historically used (i.e. back when he first started) were Orientals, Whites, and Blacks. Those are the terms he used in the table we present, and those are the terms he used in his original 1989 paper. When Oriental became politically incorrect, he switched to East Asians, Whites, and Blacks. The fact that you two think Rushton primarily uses the oid termonology tells me you have not read much of his work, and really shouldn't be editing his article. And Rushton never embraced all of humankind in his theory and the constant attempts to imply that Rushton only recognizes three races are simply bad faith attempts to discredit him. Rushton has said many times that he is focused on the 3 main races although races OUTSIDE the big 3 as well as divisions within each race may also be of interest. ] 16:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

::If you take a look at this , you will find that Rushton indeed uses the "oids" terms, although he has also used the words you mentioned as well. And unfortunately, this overinclusion criticism has indeed been leveled at him. (I'm trying to find a suitable quote). I may not be an expert on Rushton, but I am familiar enough with his writings to edit this article, contrary to your implications.--] 17:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
<blockquote></blockquote>

:::Oids are not his primary termonology and the fact that you two keeping pushing it reveals your bad faith efforts to discredit this man that have been bothering me since I discovered this article. It's obvious that the two of you lack the knowledge and neutrality to edit this article in a productive way. And if you find a quote of someone of note calling Rushton too inclusive than I suppose you can include it (although the article needs far less quotes, not more) but it is a lie for the article istelf to claim that Rushton only recognizes 3 races. It's a gross misrepresentation of his work, and it's deliberate bad faith editing. ] 17:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

::::Please also stop the ].--] 19:22, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

::::Oids are his primary terminology - please read his 'Race, Evolution, and Behavior' - http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf, page 9. He considers them the "scientific terms". Also his work "Rushton, J. P. (1988). Mongoloids, Caucasoids, and Negroids in evolutionary perspective: A commentary on Lynn. Mensa Research Journal, Number 24, 30-32.". Many other of his articles also use this terminology: http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/JPRvitae.htm

::::You can also look at his 'Race, Evolution, and Behavior' paper for clear evidence that he does grossly simplify the world into Mongoloid/Caucasoid/Negroid. Although he puts in small disclaimers here and there, all of his data is put into those three buckets, in ways that have been harshly criticized by folk such as Lieberman - http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/Lieberman2001CA.pdf

::::In regards to "including 3 races" compared to "rather than the 3 races", the note is important - one of the primary critiques of Rushton is that he inappropriately categorizes people in ways that aren't backed up by genetic studies, such as those done by Cavalli-Sforza. --] 19:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

:::::On page 43 of the online version of his book he writes: ''Yes, to a certain extent all the races blend into each other. That is true in any biological classification system. However, most people can be clearly identified with one race or another. In both everyday life and evolutionary biology, a "Black" is anyone most of whose ancestors were born in sub-Saharan Africa. A "White" is anyone most of whose ancestors were born in Europe. And an "Oriental" is anyone most of whose ancestors were born in East Asia. Modern DNA studies give pretty much the same results''. I think these are the terms we should use because they're nice and simple, easy to understand, plus they're the same terms he uses in his chart which we cite, and so as to avoid confusion we should use those terms too.__] 23:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

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Derailed opening paragraph(s)

The opening provides a clear explanation on J. Philippe Rushton, his work, and his criticisms. However, the second paragraph derails and spends half its time discussing the Pioneer Fund, rather than the individual. While it's important to consider the individuals surroundings, the depth of the Pioneer Fund is slightly excessive. I wouldn't usually consider this noteworthy enough of creating a section in the Talk Page, however I am creating this pre-preemptively to avoid an edit war on the subject. User:Skllagyook pinging you for reverting the change, feel free to explain how removing one sentence is "whitewashing", or a "large amount" of sourced material, or how I am an IP editor, or alternatively, how this was not a minor edit. From my experience editing many pages and providing ample sources on various subjects, I would not consider any of those statements to be true. Dr-Bracket (talk) 00:30, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Skllagyook was completely correct to revert your edit. Your edit was by no stretch of the imagination a minor edit; please read WP:ME. Rushton was intimately associated with the Pioneer Fund, and so it's important from the start to explain what the Pioneer Fund is. NightHeron (talk) 00:48, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
I stand corrected regarding WP:ME. Thanks Dr-Bracket (talk) 16:38, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
@Dr-Bracket: Regarding describing you as an IP editor, I must have not been paying enough attention and been thinking of another page at the time. That was my mistake. My appologies. Otherwise I concur with User:NightHeron, whose reasoning is similar to mine on the issue. Skllagyook (talk) 02:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

what position is closest to his views

I am a little confused by some of the recent changes in wording. Did Rushton generally hold that a/ genetics completely explain racial differences in intelligence, or b/(less strongly) that genetics was the major factor in intelligence", or just c/ that genetics was merely a significant factor in intelligence or d/ even only that genetics was a factor in intelligence? I realize he worded it different ways at different times, but what was his predominant or general view, or did perhaps his views change in a recognizable direction over time? If there was a change, what was his more recent position?

It seems that statements deploring or supporting his views might choose one or another of these positions as a summary, but that does not mean they were accurate in doing so . I would imagine that someone who wanted to minimize his difference from the consensus might want to say d/, and someone who thought his views totally unacceptable might choose to word it a/ --- but which of these very different ideas represented his general view? DGG ( talk ) 05:54, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure precisely what recent changes in wording you're referring to, but the statement by his former department on the matter is perfectly clear: Rushton’s works linking race and intelligence are based on an incorrect assumption that fuels systemic racism, the notion that racialized groups are concordant with patterns of human ancestry and genetic population structure. This idea is rejected by analysis of the human genome .... Moreover, Rushton’s work is characterized by a complete misunderstanding of population genetic measures, including fundamental misconceptions about the nature of heritability and gene-environment interactions during development. Generalrelative (talk) 06:40, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
The departmental damnatio doesn't address the question.
Rushton (d. 2012) published polemical papers with Jensen in 2005 and 2010 promoting the hereditarian account of group IQ differences. The abstract of one of the papers says that they argue for 50 to 80 percent genetic contribution, so at least toward the end he held the mostly genetic position, (b). However this kind of specific estimation of heritabilities and genetic influences seems more to come from Jensen, who wrote about it in other places and was always specialized in intelligence. Rushton's prior views may not have been expressed in quantitative terms as he was as seeking a grand pattern involving "all" trait differences and he switched his research interests several times. Sesquivalent (talk) 10:23, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
It seems to me to be rather idle chatter to be discussing precisely what percentage of the racial IQ gap Rushton attributed to genetics. Just as much as it would be idle to discuss what percentage of missing hikers some "Bigfoot expert" attributed to Bigfoot predation. Absent reliable independent sources, this has no bearing on what belongs in the article, per WP:FRIND of course: Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles. Generalrelative (talk) 15:53, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
The idle question of Rushton and percentages is already implicit in the article ("partial genetic" re IQ). Whether or not that section is what prompted DGG to ask, we both exercised the same freedom to post replies, even if only one of those actually answered the question.
Bigfoot is a familiar trope from the R&I Talk where there was a short thread on it that I opened shortly before your arrival. It is easy to locate as the only section in the archives with Bigfoot in the title. There was no serious reply at the time, but if you know of any reason (other than social disapproval, speculation on motives and other such "human factors") why Bigfoot, alien abductions and the like are pseudoscience, that also applies to R&I hereditarianism, please feel free to be the first to reveal what it could be. Of course it's possible for a hypothesis to be intelligible, testable, adequately empirically motivated and still fail or be a crank magnet, but the Bigfoot trope is the bald assertion that none of those prerequisites apply to R&I and it is pseudoscience on its face. Maybe it's more like dingoes abducting hikers' children, than Bigfoot abducting hikers, and there is no a priori answer through confident sneering. Sesquivalent (talk) 05:44, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Late to this discussion: could you explain what changes you are concerned about? This broad diff seems generally to be an improvement. In general in the context of a scientific biography, reliably sourced documentation of the subject's opinions of what gives rise to oberved heritability claims seem reasonable even if those opinions are held for unscientific reasons. — Charles Stewart (talk) 18:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Don't know about recent changes, but the article says "proponent of the idea that racial differences in IQ are partially related to genetic inheritance" which understates Rushton's position, i.e., 50 to 80 percent of average group differences, plus a package of related differences on several clusters of other traits, are genetic. I don't know if other sources about Rushton or Jensen quoted their estimate, but there should be enough in reviews of Rushton's earlier work to make clear that he argued for large and meaningful genetic differences on "everything", including intelligence, and not the mere existence of some nonzero genetic difference for IQ. Sesquivalent (talk) 19:33, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Consensus on race and intelligence

The section on "Race and intelligence" summarizes Rushton's views, and then adds: "Rushton's view that a genetic connection exists between race and intelligence is rejected by a broad consensus of scientists today." I'm not entirely sure why this needs to be mentioned at all (I think it might be part of the FRINGE policy?), but I don't like the current wording. It's not supported by the current sources (even after User:Generalrelative helpfully added one that specifically rejected Rushton's views), and I think it is misleading. Two of the three sources claim there is a consensus that observed IQ differences between races are not due to genetics. The last source rejects the concept of biological races (but claims no consensus). Summarizing this as there being a consensus against "a genetic connection between race and intelligence" seems misleading (and I don't think that consensus exists). If Rushton used IQ results to claim that some races were biologically predisposed to have a higher IQ than others, this view can be pointed out to be contrary to consensus. Can someone point me to where the current wording originates from? Ornilnas (talk) 03:02, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, this or similar language is required by WP:FRINGE. And the scientific consensus on the matter is clear. See this RfC from last May: Talk:Race and intelligence/Archive 103#RfC on racial hereditarianism. Generalrelative (talk) 03:30, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Thank you! That RfC does indeed support the current language. However, the sources provided in this article still don't. Perhaps the RfC you linked to contains better/more explicit sources? Or perhaps I'm misreading the claim? Ornilnas (talk) 05:20, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure that I understand the problem. You acknowledge that Two of the three sources claim there is a consensus that observed IQ differences between races are not due to genetics. It doesn't seem necessary to quibble about the third. Generalrelative (talk) 06:05, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
If you don't think there is any meaningful difference between the current language and "there is a consensus that observed IQ differences between races are not due to genetics", will you let me change the wording in the article to the latter? Ornilnas (talk) 02:49, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
I see no major reason to object but wanted to make sure that we connect the statement directly to Rushton, so I went ahead and made a WP:BOLD suggestion in the article. Happy to discuss if you still find it unclear. Generalrelative (talk) 04:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, I like your new wording much better! Specific and to the point; and clearly supported by the sources. (Except maybe the word "broad"? One of the sources describes the consensus as "emerging", which seems to emphasise almost the opposite of "broad".) Ornilnas (talk) 11:23, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Thanks. In response to your point about describing the consensus as "broad", I've offered what I hope is an acceptable compromise. Generalrelative (talk) 17:31, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, I have no more complaints! Ornilnas (talk) 23:47, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Sweet, I appreciate your thoughtful engagement. Generalrelative (talk) 02:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
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