Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 19:30, 9 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Vladimir Lenin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13Auto-archiving period: 3 months

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

	Vladimir Lenin is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 7, 2017.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 23, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted April 16, 2015 Peer review Reviewed September 30, 2015 Good article nominee Not listed April 14, 2016 Good article nominee Listed May 8, 2016 Peer review Reviewed September 24, 2016 Featured article candidate Promoted Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on April 16, 2004, April 16, 2005, April 16, 2006, April 16, 2007, April 16, 2008, April 16, 2013, April 16, 2014, April 16, 2016, April 16, 2018, and April 16, 2021. This article was on the Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive for the week of March 14, 2024. Current status: Featured article

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This  level-4 vital article is rated FA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Biography: Military / Politics and Government / Core This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Low-importance). This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Top-importance). This article is listed on the project's core biographies page. Soviet Union Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Socialism Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SocialismWikipedia:WikiProject SocialismTemplate:WikiProject Socialismsocialism Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Russia: History Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the history of Russia task force. Military history: Biography / Russian & Soviet / World War I This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history Associated task forces: /  Military biography task force Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force World War I task force Atheism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Atheism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of atheism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AtheismWikipedia:WikiProject AtheismTemplate:WikiProject AtheismAtheism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. For more information and how you can help, click the link opposite: If you would like to participate, you can edit this article and visit the project page. Quick help Project's main talk page Article layout Links to atheism-related information · List of free online resources Writing about religion · Article development Citing sources · Verifying sources · About original research Assume good faith · Be civil Recent activity Core articles the "Atheism" article Articles recently added to Category:Atheism To do edit history watch purge Join WikiProject atheism and be bold. Add a userbox to your page ({{User WikiProject Atheism}} or {{User WPA2}}) and attract potential members. Help with articles. See this month's adopt-an-article. Help out with this to-do list. Be consistent Use a "standard" layout for atheism-related articles (see layout style, "The perfect article" and Featured articles). Add Atheism info box to all atheism related talk pages (use {{WikiProject Atheism}} or see info box) Ensure atheism-related articles are members of Atheism by checking whether ] has been added to atheism-related articles – and, where it hasn't, adding it. Maintenance, etc. Find sources for all positions of an article (see Citing sources and atheism references). Try to expand stubs. Ideas and theories about life, however, are prone to generating neologisms, so some stubs may be suitable for deletion (see deletion process). Watch the list of atheism-related articles and add to accordingly. Always write for an encyclopedia. Articles to improve Agnosticism Create Articles on notable atheists Expand an atheism stub Immediate attention State atheism needs a reassessment of its Importance level, as it has little to do with atheism and is instead an article about anti-theist/anti-religious actions of governments. False choice into False dilemma: discuss whether you are for or against this merge here Clarify references in Atheism using footnotes. Secular movement defines it as a being restricted to America in the 21st century. Jewish history Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Politics High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Economics High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Economics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Economics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EconomicsWikipedia:WikiProject EconomicsTemplate:WikiProject EconomicsEconomics High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Philosophy: Philosophers Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Misplaced Pages.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Associated task forces: /  Philosophers

Section sizes Section size for Vladimir Lenin (36 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 9,006 9,006 Early life 54 12,527 Childhood: 1870–1887 6,608 6,608 University and political radicalisation: 1887–1893 5,865 5,865 Revolutionary activity 78 41,150 Early activism and imprisonment: 1893–1900 6,725 6,725 Munich, London, and Geneva: 1900–1905 6,213 6,213 Revolution of 1905 and its aftermath: 1905–1914 11,197 11,197 First World War: 1914–1917 4,359 4,359 February Revolution and the July Days: 1917 7,443 7,443 October Revolution: 1917 5,135 5,135 Lenin's government 61 55,198 Organising the Soviet government: 1917–1918 6,357 6,357 Social, legal, and economic reform: 1917–1918 9,226 9,226 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk: 1917–1918 6,454 6,454 Anti-Kulak campaigns, Cheka, and Red Terror: 1918–1922 8,742 8,742 Civil War and the Polish–Soviet War: 1918–1920 9,486 9,486 Comintern and world revolution: 1919–1920 5,665 5,665 Famine and the New Economic Policy: 1920–1922 9,207 9,207 Later life 15 15,935 Declining health and conflict with Stalin: 1920–1923 11,513 11,513 Death and funeral: 1923–1924 4,407 4,407 Political ideology 24 10,118 Marxism and Leninism 4,960 4,960 Democracy and the national question 5,134 5,134 Personal life and characteristics 9,016 9,016 Legacy 6,507 20,043 Within the Soviet Union 11,721 11,721 In the international communist movement 1,815 1,815 See also 594 594 Notes 24 24 References 16 12,954 Footnotes 34 34 Bibliography 12,904 12,904 Further reading 3,387 3,387 External links 7,769 7,769 Total 197,721 197,721

Proposed changes to lede

I propose the following changes to the lede section, which I added as of this revision (Special:Permalink/1224837838) and that were recently reverted by Midnightblueowl:

1. State in the first paragraph that Lenin was the "founder and leader of the Bolsheviks, which led the October Revolution that established the world's first socialist state". This is key information (as important as his leadership of the Soviet state), and should be included early.
2. Mention the Russian Civil War, the event which dominated his administration, in the first paragraph.
3. Add some detail on Leninism in the first paragraph, as it constitutes his political legacy beyond his leadership: "his developments of Marx's theories of party, imperialism, the state, and revolution are called Leninism." The use of wikilinks in this is up for debate.
4. Remove mentions of his wife Nadezhda Krupskaya and the location of his death (Gorki), as they are not comparatively important.
5. Add a mention of the April Theses, which was one of the most important political documents that Lenin wrote.
6. Add a mention of war communism (and its major expression in the requisitioning of grain from the peasantry), which is as important as the New Economic Policy, which is already mentioned. It needs to be mentioned to demonstrate what was "new" about the NEP.
7. Expand on "popular uprisings" by mentioning the two most significant by name: "revolts such as the Tambov and Kronstadt rebellions".
8. Rephrase this info: "His administration defeated right and left-wing anti-Bolshevik armies in the Russian Civil War from 1917 to 1922 and oversaw the Polish–Soviet War of 1919–1921. Several non-Russian nations had secured independence from Russia after 1917, but five were forcibly re-united into the new Soviet Union in 1922, while others repelled Soviet invasions." as such: "Some non-Russian nations of the former empire were re-united in the Soviet Union in 1922, while others (notably Poland) gained independence." This should be kept simple. The Whites should not uniformly be described as "right-wing", and the "left-wing" armies such as the Greens and Makhnovites played a comparatively small part; the intervention of the Allies and Central Powers were more important, but shouldn't be mentioned for concision. Regarding the separatists, much more than five breakaway nations were re-united in the Soviet Union (see Pro-independence movements in the Russian Civil War).
9. Expand on "his health failing" by including that he "suffered three debilitating strokes in 1922 and 1923 and died the following year", which is important because it hints at the power vacuum and struggle which began in 1922, and contextualizes the leadership transition to Stalin.
10. Add that it was under Stalin's leadership that he became the figurehead of Marxism–Leninism, and specify that it was the state ideology.
11. Rephrase the summary of his legacy: "Lenin is viewed by his supporters as a champion of socialism, communism, anti-imperialism and the working class, while his critics accuse him of establishing a totalitarian dictatorship that oversaw mass killings and political repression of dissidents." as such: "Lenin is praised by his supporters for establishing soviet democracy and a "dictatorship of the proletariat" which took steps towards socialism, while critics accuse him of overseeing mass killings and political repression of dissidents and either leading or preparing the way for a totalitarian dictatorship." The current text says the same thing in several ways, while the proposed adds detail on what Lenin and his supporters believed that he was establishing from his Marxist perspective. Also, as elaborated within the article, not all scholars and critics characterize Lenin's government as a totalitarian dictatorship, though almost everyone acknowledges that he laid the groundwork for Stalin's.

I support all of these changes to the text, but they can be discussed point by point. Thoughts? — Goszei (talk) 22:18, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

This article is FA-rated, so it has already been scrutinised extensively by a wide number of editors. For this reason, we should be very cautious about alterations, because these could easily result in a decline in quality, at which its FA status would have to be removed. My concerns about the proposed changes are principally to do with length. This article is already very long; indeed, it is actually too long according to WP:Article size. Expanding it further in order to add further detail is not a good idea in that scenario. The lead needs to be kept as clean and concise as possible, and in its present, largely stable form it does that. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:05, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Not all of these points add length (though most do). It's been FA since 2017 (was it) & a touch-up may be in order. It would be nice to lose "His health failing, Lenin died in Gorki,..."! On the overall length, there are tons of sub-articles, and trimming the detail lower down should be tedious but straightforward. Maybe Goszei could start there? Johnbod (talk) 13:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I have just implemented what I hope is a lasting compromise for the lead along the general lines of what I pointed out above. My edit reduced the size of the text, which should assuage any concerns about length and concision. — Goszei (talk) 21:43, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Jewish

Does Lenin's Jewish heritage mean he deserves to be added to Jewish-related categories?MagicatthemovieS (talk) 03:04, 2 July 2024 (UTC)MagicatthemovieS

No. Lenin had distant Jewish ancestry, but no "Jewish heritage" unless you consider this to be an undefinable quality acquired by birth. He had absolutely no Jewish upbringing, and didn't even know that one of his ancestors was a convert. This "Jew-tagging" of unrelated articles serves no encyclopaedic purpose; we should reserve these categories for those individuals where their Jewish background is/was relevant to their life and work. This does not apply in Lenin's case. RolandR (talk) 09:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

The issue of Lenin's supposed 'Jewishness' also feeds into bigoted ideas of Judeo-Bolshevism, fuelling antisemitism and tainting rational assessments of Lenin, as well as his role in the revolution and the state it producted. 2A0A:EF40:35B:101:2D23:12FF:BC27:6B65 (talk) 13:27, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, do not include.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:08, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Should we place an WP:NBSP for Soviet Union on infobox? 49.150.12.163 (talk) 10:36, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: I don't think it's necessary. PianoDan (talk) 17:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• Note that I've rangeblocked the OP for block evasion.-- Ponyo 16:20, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Should we remove "Russian SFSR", as per Talk:Joseph Stalin#Linking subdivisions? 175.100.92.40 (talk) 09:20, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 01:44, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Add information

I will add some information:

• The NEP succeeded in creating an economic recovery after the devastation of the war

• In modern Russia, polls measuring the perception of Lenin's legacy show that almost Russian believed Lenin played a positive role in the country's history.

If nobody oppose this information, i will add to articleMichael Razid (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

negative-- re ec onomic history please use the major scholarly studies of Lenin and USSR, not offbeat accounts of minor artists. (See the Further Reading section) As for public opinion in the Putin era--Russians know what trouble they will be in if they speak out against the official line. Rjensen (talk) 04:20, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Part 1: I changed this source (A History of Twentieth-Century Russia - Harvard University). Part 2: Your opinion is unreasonable, Putin is not Russia communist party's member. In fact, Russia communist party is a opposition party of PutinMichael Razid (talk) 04:28, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

@Michael Razid, polls and Time magazine mentions are unnecessary in the lead since the lead already emphasizes his significance and influence. Perhaps you should consider suggesting content for the body before making changes to the lead. StephenMacky1 (talk) 10:24, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

1. Service, Robert (1997). A History of Twentieth-Century Russia. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. pp. 124–125. ISBN 0674403487.
2. ""Ideas about the personality of Vladimir Lenin and his role in the history of the country"". Levada. April 16, 2024. Archived from the original on May 2, 2024.

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Misplaced Pages featured articles
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages articles that use British English
• FA-Class level-4 vital articles
• Misplaced Pages level-4 vital articles in People
• FA-Class vital articles in People
• FA-Class biography articles
• FA-Class biography (military) articles
• Low-importance biography (military) articles
• Military biography work group articles
• FA-Class biography (politics and government) articles
• Top-importance biography (politics and government) articles
• Politics and government work group articles
• FA-Class biography (core) articles
• Core biography articles
• Top-importance biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• FA-Class Soviet Union articles
• Top-importance Soviet Union articles
• WikiProject Soviet Union articles
• FA-Class socialism articles
• Top-importance socialism articles
• WikiProject Socialism articles
• FA-Class Russia articles
• Top-importance Russia articles
• Top-importance FA-Class Russia articles
• FA-Class Russia (history) articles
• History of Russia task force articles
• WikiProject Russia articles
• FA-Class military history articles
• FA-Class Russian, Soviet and CIS military history articles
• Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force articles
• FA-Class World War I articles
• World War I task force articles
• FA-Class Atheism articles
• Mid-importance Atheism articles
• FA-Class Jewish history-related articles
• Low-importance Jewish history-related articles
• WikiProject Jewish history articles
• FA-Class politics articles
• High-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• FA-Class Economics articles
• High-importance Economics articles
• WikiProject Economics articles
• FA-Class Philosophy articles
• Low-importance Philosophy articles
• FA-Class philosopher articles
• Low-importance philosopher articles
• Philosophers task force articles