Talk:Rape during the Kashmir conflict: Difference between revisions

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	== Problematic editing ==
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			ये जरूरी नहीं है कि भारतीय सेना ने ही इसकी शुरुआत करी \|पर यै बहुत जरूरी है आज के इस कल युग में इंसायनियत
			खत्म हो गई है\|मै रोहित कश्यप एक कश्यप परिवार का लडका हुं\| कश्यप जाति के लोगों को ॠषि कश्यप का बशंज माना जाता है\|इन्ही ऋषि के नाम से आज कश्मीर का नाम है\|कश्मीर भारत की नहीं बल्कि पुरे विश्व कई खुबसूरत स्थानो मे से एक माना जाता है\| परन्तु आज ऐसा बक्त आ गया है कि हिन्दुस्तान ओर पाकिस्तान के बीच का हिस्सा एक कश्मीर बन गया है\|जो सिर्फ इन देशों के कारण ही इतने जूल्म सह रहा है\| कश्मीर का इतिहास न दुनिया जानती है\| ओर भारत ओर पाकिस्तान मै बैठे लोग\| पर बहां के लोग उन सहे हुए जुल्मो को अच्छी तरह से जानते है\| की बो जूल्म किसने किए \| पर आज भी लोग शांत हैं\| कुछ अपने बिते हुए कल से तो कुछ खोफ से\| कई आतकंवादीयो ने बहा कि पडिंती महिलाओं के साथ बल्तकार किए\| ओर कई लोगों को बेहरहमी से मार डाला\| पर भारतीय सैनिकों को ये कार्य करना सोभा नहीं देता\| सेना को लोगों कि रक्षा के लिए रखा जाता है,न कि उनके साथ बल्तकार करने के लिए या दुसरो की इज्जत के साथ खेलने के लिए\| ये कभी भी इंसानियत का रूप नहीं दिखाती बल्कि हैबानियत का रूप दिखाती है\|...

			== Load of Nonsense (Horse.S) ==
	{{ping\|Capitals00}} Can you please explain of yours? What on earth were you starting? The content you added in the Background section is irrelevant, its not background to this subject and is out of the scope of this article. And apart from that, all you cited was ''one'' report of sexual abuse of which no source said it was used as a weapon of war. Also BBC explicitly states: {{tq\|This is the first alleged rape in Pakistan-administered Kashmir in which military personnel have been accused.}} Now how can you possibly justify inserting this in the lead? --- ] (]) 18:37, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::Don't do blanket reversion of the entire edit just because a single sentence didn't fit the source, instead you had to reword it. It seems there are more than these few scholarly sources that concern Pakistan administered Kashmir. I am removing the example from as weapon of war. Would rather make separate section for Pakistan if there are sources talking about multiple cases.
	::Also the background does fit it, it shows that when did rape actually started to take place in this entire ], as noted by reliable sources. ] (]) 18:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::: Thanks for ! You finally understood. Regards, ] (]) 23:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::Content was not well placed, but not useless either, I have created new section for Pakistan. ] (]) 09:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::: Hello ], this article is specifically for covering ''war'' rape in the present post-1989 conflict in Kashmir Valley. Please add your material to ], ], ] or other more suitable pages for your content. Thank you. ] (]) 09:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	Just out of curiosity, why are ], ], ], but not the Pakistani equivalents? Unless of course Pakistanis are truly virtuous. ], perhaps? ] (]) 10:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:Agree with ] that this article is suffering with ]. Capitals00, TylerDurden apparently agreed to include Pakistani rape violence in Kashmir, here we have over 10 reliable sources but a new SPA is censoring them. ] (]) 10:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::If you can find reliable, solid scholarly sources discussing '''war''' rape by Pakistanis inside the insurgency areas since 1990, feel welcome to add. If its not that then its not for this article. ] (]) 10:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::Then make such a senseless article title too, "Rape in Kashmir since 1989" and have it deleted soon. You are finding a excuse to carry on your disruptive ] as we can see. Thus you are lacking sense. ] (]) 10:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::: Please refrain from ]. ] (]) 10:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

			. Undiluted Bakwas (tr. 'Nonsense' in Hindi) ...
	:::::: Yes, I agreed to add the ''conflict-related'' sexual abuse ''in'' Pakistan administered Kashmir, if any.
			. Even if a single conscientious Army officer, or soldier (Jawan) becomes aware of a subordinate, troop member or brother Officer who has indulged in what one considers very poor OLQ; and its is reported. All hell would break loose. Its a court martial offense, and unlike US and British Armies with their Code Reds and one eye closed, policies, theI dian Army is a professional Army with a stellar record both in territorial and extra territorial peace keeping efforts.
	:::::: But there are a lot of problems with the by D4iNa4. It clearly suffers from ]. Also it was again written and placed inappropriately.
			. Even if the paltan (Battallion or Army Unit) closes rank (again impossible to keep a lid on) to prevent leakage of what would be a smirch on their flag and code of izzat; its the end of that blokes days with the Army. Even the culprits Company Officer gets rebuked and his record scarred.
	:::::: The 1947 violence by Pakistani tribesmen happened in and around ], which is today Indian administered Kashmir, they were ''not'' the incidents occurred in Pakistan administered Kashmir, as the user wrote. And as I have already said, that content does not belong here. Its out of the scope of this article. Those Pakistani tribesmen atrocities are not meant to be covered in ] or ], and apparently they are not. The same is the case with this article. Capitals00 himself removed it later, and it has to be covered in ] and ](its duly covered in this page).
			. I have always been amazed by Gang rapes and child rapes. How does one maintain an erection, let alone get excited to have one. But deviant psychopaths and screening to prevent, entry of such individuals into the ranks apart; the checks and balances in both war and peace efforts and areas are time tested and standardised to make such trangressing event, very difficult to execute.
	:::::: The 1970s incidents in PAK are also not related to this article. The content clearly specifies that it happened when the excessive military was deployed due to Shia-Sunni conflicts, that has got nothing to do with Kashmir conflict.
			. A stray incident of an improperly supervised platoon member, forcing himself on a woman may happen very rarely. However very difficult to imagine and only if that poor soldier has a role where he is constantly mingling with civilians.
	:::::: {{tq\|Pakistani militants have been also involved in rape of Kashmiri women and torturing of prisoners.}}<ref>{{cite book\|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=m_IwDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT139&dq=Pakistani+militants\|title=Defeat is an Orphan: How Pakistan Lost the Great South Asian War\|first=Myra\|last=MacDonald\|publisher=Oxford University Press\|year=2017}}</ref>: This line again, as per source, is talking about the violence by militants in IAK, not PAK, and it has been extensively covered in this article in an explicit section.
			. But reports of using Gun point and gang raping unwilling civilians, is just BS
	:::::: So again we're left with one single case of sexual abuse reported by BBC, of which I have already told, is blatantly ] to build content in this article.
			. Mingling with civilians may result in affairs and some unsavoury military behaviour. But mostly from soldiers being seduced or in turn making false promises of marriage etc. Just like regular civilian behaviour but in much smaller percentages!! 🙂
	:::::: And ], kindly refrain from personal attacks and discuss only the substance. That's not at all a good practice for a responsible and rational editor of Misplaced Pages. Regards, ] (]) 11:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
			. Do barbaric Sharia laws prevent adultery or cheating. I would believe not, but the percentage or proportion compared to more humanely governed (English Law?) is definitely less. The analogy is thattheArmy man is regukated by Arny Actwhich allows for exemary and timely punishment for infarctions.
	::::::: I have to disagree with you {{U\|Tyler Durden}}. If we stick by the article title, all the events that occurred as part of the ] are included. There is no time restriction. -- ] (]) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
			. And the very few possible instances of rape would have resulted in summary dismissal and alllwing the law of the labd ro run its x
			Course. J&K has been for long a political battleground for mercenary populists; and international pseudo-evangelists (looking to make a quick buck in the name of Human Rights) and joudnalists in search of their el dorado story, where any kite can fly. Akin to US protecting their Oil interests under the garb of Human emancipation in Turbanned Sheikhdoms.
			. Complete Hogwash. ] (]) 09:15, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

			Every army in the world claims to be professional, not just the Indian army. Moreover, almost every big army of the world has been accused of violating human rights (including war-time rapes) at least at some point of time in the history... The facts in this article can be varified form simple Google searches...Being good citizens of India, we should in fact acknowledge all those crimes (which are backed with sufficient evidences) and make sure that no such incidents happen again.
	: In answer to {{U\|Jim1138}}, I think we have better information available for India than for Pakistan. Also, more editors interested in writing about India (including positive and negative stuff). Nevertheless, do you have a view on the issue being discussed here? Dos this article need to cover the events in Pakistan-administered Kashmir? -- ] (]) 11:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
			] (]) 15:52, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
	::The article name does not appear to differentiate between the two sections, so per ], it should include Pakistan-administered Kashmir as well. ] (]) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::This article's lead and background specifies the context as the insurgency in Kashmir since 1989/90. The scholarly sources and media particularly discuss rape in Kashmir conflict in the context of the insurgency between security forces and militants. A lot of the content discussing Pakistan-administered Kashmir is jumbled up. The 1947 tribal rapes cannot be included since that is part of the 1947 war, just as rape during Jammu massacres cannot be fitted into this article. The events in Gilgit, rooted in sectarianism in Pakistan, already has its own page. (]). It has no relation to Kashmir conflict. ] (]) 11:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::: I agree with {{U\|Jim1138}} too. So, there is no time or geographical restriction. The name of the article, as chosen by its creator, covers all of the ]. Please focus on "Kashmiris" (all the inhabitants of ]) and their trauma rather than worrying about India or Pakistan. All artificial limitations placed on the scope amount to ]. -- ] (]) 11:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::: {{ping\|Kautilya3}} Yes, I agree too this. And in that case, out of the , the 1947 tribesmen atrocities alone can be included. — ] (]) 11:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2022 ==
	:::::: The conflict in Kashmir which this article is seemingly covering is the post 1989 conflict. This is not just specified in the lead and background, but this is how scholarly sources discuss rape in this conflict. All rape within a particular territory and its long history does not meet the ] requirements. Please ensure that we describe a subject according to the scholarly narratives. ] (]) 11:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::TylerDurden sorry but you are not seeing the fact that the source that talks about the atrocities by Pakistani forces since October 1947 talks about whole Kashmir region that was later divided as J & K, Gilgit, Azad Kashmir. There are sources that mention their atrocities (rape, looting, lynching) in Muzaffarabad (now Pakistan), Srinagar (now India), etc. The 1970s events are also important since they tell how Pakistan military got back Kashmir under their 100% control. Problematics is just a disruptive SPA who is engaged in ]. ] (]) 11:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::: I am going to oppose inclusion of historical events not part of the post-1989 Kashmir insurgency. Including rapes by tribals and rapes in ]. This will just create confusion for readers since this article is quite obviously discussing only the insurgency in Kashmir and all the article's material sourced to scholarly references related to use as weapon of war, prosecution etc is discussing Kashmir conflict as the current conflict in the Valley since 1989. I oppose any anachronisation of the article's pre-existing content. ] (]) 11:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::::Hope you won't edit war over it. ] (]) 12:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	* My two cents: Unless the sources explicitly demonstrate that the single incident in ] or the event in Gilgit are a result of the Kashmir conflict/insurgency, linking the two would qualify as ] and uncorroborated ]. The current title of this article suggests that this is ''not'' a general article covering rape incidents in Kashmir. Also as someone above noted, some of the events attributed to Pakistani armed groups during the ] didn't actually occur inside Pakistani territory. ''']''' (]) 11:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::, and . ] (]) 12:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	{{reflist-talk}}

			{{edit semi-protected\|Rape during the Kashmir conflict\|answered=yes}}
	== Problematic editing ==
			Islamic militants used rape of non-muslim women specially Hindu women as tactics of war against India and to do jihad against majority community, because islamic militants whose ancestors were also got converted by Islamic tyrants thought kashmir originally belongs to Islamists and no kaffir Or kuffar can rule there.

			Those Islamic militants started to identify non-muslim women and kept harassing them at the start of complete Islamization of middle-east, because they believed that non-muslims from the kashmir would get hurt by these incidents and they immediately flee from the kashmir.
	{{ping\|Capitals00}} Can you please explain of yours? What on earth were you starting? The content you added in the Background section is irrelevant, its not background to this subject and is out of the scope of this article. And apart from that, all you cited was ''one'' report of sexual abuse of which no source said it was used as a weapon of war. Also BBC explicitly states: {{tq\|This is the first alleged rape in Pakistan-administered Kashmir in which military personnel have been accused.}} Now how can you possibly justify inserting this in the lead? --- ] (]) 18:37, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::Don't do blanket reversion of the entire edit just because a single sentence didn't fit the source, instead you had to reword it. It seems there are more than these few scholarly sources that concern Pakistan administered Kashmir. I am removing the example from as weapon of war. Would rather make separate section for Pakistan if there are sources talking about multiple cases.
	::Also the background does fit it, it shows that when did rape actually started to take place in this entire ], as noted by reliable sources. ] (]) 18:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::: Thanks for ! You finally understood. Regards, ] (]) 23:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::Content was not well placed, but not useless either, I have created new section for Pakistan. ] (]) 09:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::: Hello ], this article is specifically for covering ''war'' rape in the present post-1989 conflict in Kashmir Valley. Please add your material to ], ], ] or other more suitable pages for your content. Thank you. ] (]) 09:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	Just out of curiosity, why are ], ], ], but not the Pakistani equivalents? Unless of course Pakistanis are truly virtuous. ], perhaps? ] (]) 10:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:Agree with ] that this article is suffering with ]. Capitals00, TylerDurden apparently agreed to include Pakistani rape violence in Kashmir, here we have over 10 reliable sources but a new SPA is censoring them. ] (]) 10:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::If you can find reliable, solid scholarly sources discussing '''war''' rape by Pakistanis inside the insurgency areas since 1990, feel welcome to add. If its not that then its not for this article. ] (]) 10:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::Then make such a senseless article title too, "Rape in Kashmir since 1989" and have it deleted soon. You are finding a excuse to carry on your disruptive ] as we can see. Thus you are lacking sense. ] (]) 10:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::: Please refrain from ]. ] (]) 10:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

			Islamic militants from the kashmir and Pakistan did rape of kashmiri Muslim and non-muslim women while wearing dress of Indian Army. Their supporter from communists parties twisted this fact and used as a propaganda against Indian Army and Indian ] (]) 13:35, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
	:::::: Yes, I agreed to add the ''conflict-related'' sexual abuse ''in'' Pakistan administered Kashmir, if any.
			:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 13:40, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
	:::::: But there are a lot of problems with the by D4iNa4. It clearly suffers from ]. Also it was again written and placed inappropriately.
			While I agree that Islamic militants have a history of raping Hindu women and Jihad against Hindus, there is no evidence that those were Islamic militants dressed in Indian army.] (]) 12:37, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
	:::::: The 1947 violence by Pakistani tribesmen happened in and around ], which is today Indian administered Kashmir, they were ''not'' the incidents occurred in Pakistan administered Kashmir, as the user wrote. And as I have already said, that content does not belong here. Its out of the scope of this article. Those Pakistani tribesmen atrocities are not meant to be covered in ] or ], and apparently they are not. The same is the case with this article. Capitals00 himself removed it later, and it has to be covered in ] and ](its duly covered in this page).
	:::::: The 1970s incidents in PAK are also not related to this article. The content clearly specifies that it happened when the excessive military was deployed due to Shia-Sunni conflicts, that has got nothing to do with Kashmir conflict.
	:::::: {{tq\|Pakistani militants have been also involved in rape of Kashmiri women and torturing of prisoners.}}<ref>{{cite book\|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=m_IwDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT139&dq=Pakistani+militants\|title=Defeat is an Orphan: How Pakistan Lost the Great South Asian War\|first=Myra\|last=MacDonald\|publisher=Oxford University Press\|year=2017}}</ref>: This line again, as per source, is talking about the violence by militants in IAK, not PAK, and it has been extensively covered in this article in an explicit section.
	:::::: So again we're left with one single case of sexual abuse reported by BBC, of which I have already told, is blatantly ] to build content in this article.
	:::::: And ], kindly refrain from personal attacks and discuss only the substance. That's not at all a good practice for a responsible and rational editor of Misplaced Pages. Regards, ] (]) 11:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::::: I have to disagree with you {{U\|Tyler Durden}}. If we stick by the article title, all the events that occurred as part of the ] are included. There is no time restriction. -- ] (]) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2023 ==
	: In answer to {{U\|Jim1138}}, I think we have better information available for India than for Pakistan. Also, more editors interested in writing about India (including positive and negative stuff). Nevertheless, do you have a view on the issue being discussed here? Dos this article need to cover the events in Pakistan-administered Kashmir? -- ] (]) 11:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::The article name does not appear to differentiate between the two sections, so per ], it should include Pakistan-administered Kashmir as well. ] (]) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::This article's lead and background specifies the context as the insurgency in Kashmir since 1989/90. The scholarly sources and media particularly discuss rape in Kashmir conflict in the context of the insurgency between security forces and militants. A lot of the content discussing Pakistan-administered Kashmir is jumbled up. The 1947 tribal rapes cannot be included since that is part of the 1947 war, just as rape during Jammu massacres cannot be fitted into this article. The events in Gilgit, rooted in sectarianism in Pakistan, already has its own page. (]). It has no relation to Kashmir conflict. ] (]) 11:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::: I agree with {{U\|Jim1138}} too. So, there is no time or geographical restriction. The name of the article, as chosen by its creator, covers all of the ]. Please focus on "Kashmiris" (all the inhabitants of ]) and their trauma rather than worrying about India or Pakistan. All artificial limitations placed on the scope amount to ]. -- ] (]) 11:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::: {{ping\|Kautilya3}} Yes, I agree too this. And in that case, out of the , the 1947 tribesmen atrocities alone can be included. — ] (]) 11:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

			{{edit semi-protected\|Rape during the Kashmir conflict\|answered=yes}}
	:::::: The conflict in Kashmir which this article is seemingly covering is the post 1989 conflict. This is not just specified in the lead and background, but this is how scholarly sources discuss rape in this conflict. All rape within a particular territory and its long history does not meet the ] requirements. Please ensure that we describe a subject according to the scholarly narratives. ] (]) 11:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
			ACCUSING THE INDIAN ARMY OF ORCHESTRATING MASS RAPES IS AN UTTER TRAVESTY. CORRECT THIS CONTENT RIGHT AWAY. ] (]) 18:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
	:::::::TylerDurden sorry but you are not seeing the fact that the source that talks about the atrocities by Pakistani forces since October 1947 talks about whole Kashmir region that was later divided as J & K, Gilgit, Azad Kashmir. There are sources that mention their atrocities (rape, looting, lynching) in Muzaffarabad (now Pakistan), Srinagar (now India), etc. The 1970s events are also important since they tell how Pakistan military got back Kashmir under their 100% control. Problematics is just a disruptive SPA who is engaged in ]. ] (]) 11:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
			:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> seems pretty well sourced. feel free to check out some of the citations linked in the article ] (]) 18:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
	:::::::: I am going to oppose inclusion of historical events not part of the post-1989 Kashmir insurgency. Including rapes by tribals and rapes in ]. This will just create confusion for readers since this article is quite obviously discussing only the insurgency in Kashmir and all the article's material sourced to scholarly references related to use as weapon of war, prosecution etc is discussing Kashmir conflict as the current conflict in the Valley since 1989. I oppose any anachronisation of the article's pre-existing content. ] (]) 11:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::::Hope you won't edit war over it. ] (]) 12:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	* My two cents: Unless the sources explicitly demonstrate that the single incident in ] or the event in Gilgit are a result of the Kashmir conflict/insurgency, linking the two would qualify as ] and uncorroborated ]. The current title of this article suggests that this is ''not'' a general article covering rape incidents in Kashmir. Also as someone above noted, some of the events attributed to Pakistani armed groups during the ] didn't actually occur inside Pakistani territory. ''']''' (]) 11:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::, and . ] (]) 12:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	{{reflist-talk}}

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This article was nominated for deletion on 12 May 2017. The result of the discussion was procedural close.

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ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:40, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

While I agree that Islamic militants have a history of raping Hindu women and Jihad against Hindus, there is no evidence that those were Islamic militants dressed in Indian army.Thelordofsword (talk) 12:37, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

ACCUSING THE INDIAN ARMY OF ORCHESTRATING MASS RAPES IS AN UTTER TRAVESTY. CORRECT THIS CONTENT RIGHT AWAY. 103.57.236.55 (talk) 18:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Not done: seems pretty well sourced. feel free to check out some of the citations linked in the article Cannolis (talk) 18:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

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