Talk:Rape during the Kashmir conflict: Difference between revisions

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			{{Image requested\|in=India}}
	== Estimates ==
			{{Image requested\|in=Pakistan}}
			{{Old AfD multi\|page=Rape in the Kashmir conflict\|date=12 May 2017\|result='''procedural close'''}}
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			ये जरूरी नहीं है कि भारतीय सेना ने ही इसकी शुरुआत करी \|पर यै बहुत जरूरी है आज के इस कल युग में इंसायनियत
			खत्म हो गई है\|मै रोहित कश्यप एक कश्यप परिवार का लडका हुं\| कश्यप जाति के लोगों को ॠषि कश्यप का बशंज माना जाता है\|इन्ही ऋषि के नाम से आज कश्मीर का नाम है\|कश्मीर भारत की नहीं बल्कि पुरे विश्व कई खुबसूरत स्थानो मे से एक माना जाता है\| परन्तु आज ऐसा बक्त आ गया है कि हिन्दुस्तान ओर पाकिस्तान के बीच का हिस्सा एक कश्मीर बन गया है\|जो सिर्फ इन देशों के कारण ही इतने जूल्म सह रहा है\| कश्मीर का इतिहास न दुनिया जानती है\| ओर भारत ओर पाकिस्तान मै बैठे लोग\| पर बहां के लोग उन सहे हुए जुल्मो को अच्छी तरह से जानते है\| की बो जूल्म किसने किए \| पर आज भी लोग शांत हैं\| कुछ अपने बिते हुए कल से तो कुछ खोफ से\| कई आतकंवादीयो ने बहा कि पडिंती महिलाओं के साथ बल्तकार किए\| ओर कई लोगों को बेहरहमी से मार डाला\| पर भारतीय सैनिकों को ये कार्य करना सोभा नहीं देता\| सेना को लोगों कि रक्षा के लिए रखा जाता है,न कि उनके साथ बल्तकार करने के लिए या दुसरो की इज्जत के साथ खेलने के लिए\| ये कभी भी इंसानियत का रूप नहीं दिखाती बल्कि हैबानियत का रूप दिखाती है\|...

			== Load of Nonsense (Horse.S) ==
	{{ping\|Problematics}} Hey mate. Since you reinstated the Khurram Parvez's figure of 7,000, it turns out that that content was actually added by me initially in . But later as I said in , it occurred to me that his estimate might also have been misled like the ones of Amit Ranjan and Seema Kazi, as both of them misinterpreted this source - . Also Khurram Parvez does not specify/clarify if he was mentioning war rapes, and more importantly, he offers no clues as to the source or basis of his calculations. Now we have no other reliable sources that give figures close to Khurram Parvez's estimate. So I don't think its constructive to have that mention in the article. Pinging {{ping\|Kautilya3}} if he is interested to take a look on this. Regards, ] (]) 08:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	:Hi there Tyler. I was reading Parvez's interview on Scroll.in and this is what he said;

			. Undiluted Bakwas (tr. 'Nonsense' in Hindi) ...
	:{{talkquote\|According to '''our''' estimates of sexualised and gendered violence, there are 7,000 cases.<ref>{{Cite news\|url=https://scroll.in/article/812010/do-you-need-700000-soldiers-to-fight-150-militants-kashmiri-rights-activist-khurram-parvez\|title='Do you need 700,000 soldiers to fight 150 militants?': Kashmiri rights activist Khurram Parvez\|last=Ashraf\|first=Ajaz\|work=Scroll.in\|access-date=2017-04-21\|language=en-US}}</ref>}}
			. Even if a single conscientious Army officer, or soldier (Jawan) becomes aware of a subordinate, troop member or brother Officer who has indulged in what one considers very poor OLQ; and its is reported. All hell would break loose. Its a court martial offense, and unlike US and British Armies with their Code Reds and one eye closed, policies, theI dian Army is a professional Army with a stellar record both in territorial and extra territorial peace keeping efforts.
			. Even if the paltan (Battallion or Army Unit) closes rank (again impossible to keep a lid on) to prevent leakage of what would be a smirch on their flag and code of izzat; its the end of that blokes days with the Army. Even the culprits Company Officer gets rebuked and his record scarred.
			. I have always been amazed by Gang rapes and child rapes. How does one maintain an erection, let alone get excited to have one. But deviant psychopaths and screening to prevent, entry of such individuals into the ranks apart; the checks and balances in both war and peace efforts and areas are time tested and standardised to make such trangressing event, very difficult to execute.
			. A stray incident of an improperly supervised platoon member, forcing himself on a woman may happen very rarely. However very difficult to imagine and only if that poor soldier has a role where he is constantly mingling with civilians.
			. But reports of using Gun point and gang raping unwilling civilians, is just BS
			. Mingling with civilians may result in affairs and some unsavoury military behaviour. But mostly from soldiers being seduced or in turn making false promises of marriage etc. Just like regular civilian behaviour but in much smaller percentages!! 🙂
			. Do barbaric Sharia laws prevent adultery or cheating. I would believe not, but the percentage or proportion compared to more humanely governed (English Law?) is definitely less. The analogy is thattheArmy man is regukated by Arny Actwhich allows for exemary and timely punishment for infarctions.
			. And the very few possible instances of rape would have resulted in summary dismissal and alllwing the law of the labd ro run its x
			Course. J&K has been for long a political battleground for mercenary populists; and international pseudo-evangelists (looking to make a quick buck in the name of Human Rights) and joudnalists in search of their el dorado story, where any kite can fly. Akin to US protecting their Oil interests under the garb of Human emancipation in Turbanned Sheikhdoms.
			. Complete Hogwash. ] (]) 09:15, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

			Every army in the world claims to be professional, not just the Indian army. Moreover, almost every big army of the world has been accused of violating human rights (including war-time rapes) at least at some point of time in the history... The facts in this article can be varified form simple Google searches...Being good citizens of India, we should in fact acknowledge all those crimes (which are backed with sufficient evidences) and make sure that no such incidents happen again.
	:So this is the estimate of JKCCS in context of the conflict and not the government registration figures (which include non-war rape) quoted by Kazi and Ranjan.
			] (]) 15:52, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
	:This source also lends credence to that 7000 is the total of cases '''documented''' by JKCCS.<ref>{{cite news\|title=Women’s Resistance in Kashmir\|url=https://www.awid.org/news-and-analysis/womens-resistance-kashmir\|work=AWID\|date=22 February 2017\|language=en}}</ref> ] (]) 08:33, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	:: Well, if they documented 7000 cases, then its totally fine. I will have to admit that I'm quite shocked to see such a huge number! If possible, can you dig up the corresponding content in the original report from the JKCCS site - . I'm not able to find it. From the 'main report' in that link, I could only find this:
	:: {{talkquote\|Prepared over two years, this report is a part of the continuing work to understand and analyze the role of the Indian State in Jammu and Kashmir that has resulted in widespread and systematic violence including the disappearance of 8000+ persons, 70,000+ deaths, 6000+ unknown, unmarked and mass graves, and ''countless cases of torture and sexual violence''.}}
	:: Cheers, ] (]) 11:11, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2022 ==
	{{reflist-talk}}

			{{edit semi-protected\|Rape during the Kashmir conflict\|answered=yes}}
	==Redirected again==
			Islamic militants used rape of non-muslim women specially Hindu women as tactics of war against India and to do jihad against majority community, because islamic militants whose ancestors were also got converted by Islamic tyrants thought kashmir originally belongs to Islamists and no kaffir Or kuffar can rule there.

			Those Islamic militants started to identify non-muslim women and kept harassing them at the start of complete Islamization of middle-east, because they believed that non-muslims from the kashmir would get hurt by these incidents and they immediately flee from the kashmir.
	Found that this article is fork of an already redirected article , kindly don't recreate unless you have consensus for it. ] (]) 15:32, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	:{{ping\|Kautilya3}} have you read the edit summary of mine of this section? I have also notified on the noticeboard. ] (]) 15:58, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

			Islamic militants from the kashmir and Pakistan did rape of kashmiri Muslim and non-muslim women while wearing dress of Indian Army. Their supporter from communists parties twisted this fact and used as a propaganda against Indian Army and Indian ] (]) 13:35, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
	:: This is a '''new article''' created a few days ago. I never heard of anybody needing any consensus to create an aricle. What on earth are you talking about?
			:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 13:40, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
	:: There is nothing in common between this article and the old {{noredirect\|Rape in Jammu and Kashmir}} that was merged. I don't think the old merge decision applies to this article at all.
			While I agree that Islamic militants have a history of raping Hindu women and Jihad against Hindus, there is no evidence that those were Islamic militants dressed in Indian army.] (]) 12:37, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
	:: Pinging {{U\|RegentsPark}} for his advice. -- ] (]) 16:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::If you are re-creating an article that ended up getting redirected, then you need consensus to recreate it. Article at present form is just like what {{noredirect\|Rape in Jammu and Kashmir}} was. ] (]) 16:49, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2023 ==
	::: I second Kautilya. The article in the present stage is supported by dozens of reliable and scholarly sources, and has a lot of own and elaborate content, all of which cannot go into other broader articles. Also this article has been linked in several other broader articles where the overdue content was cleaned up, so now merging this to any other article would be very naive. The situations for the deletion of previous article were different, many of the editors in that forum were bothered that the article was poorly sourced and that it was small in length. (Anyways I hardly see any consensus there, I wonder how that was closed!) But that is not the case now. I think, editors of this article (including myself) have put a decent effort to bring it to an acceptable standard. And is still being worked up to get further developed. So, if you are still that interested to delete this, you may open another forum here for the editors to review the current article and decide if it should be deleted. — ] (]) 16:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

	== ~~Neutrality~~ ~~and~~ ~~clarification~~ ~~on '~~Kashmir conflict~~' =~~=		{{edit semi-protected\|Rape during the Kashmir conflict\|answered=yes}}
			ACCUSING THE INDIAN ARMY OF ORCHESTRATING MASS RAPES IS AN UTTER TRAVESTY. CORRECT THIS CONTENT RIGHT AWAY. ] (]) 18:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

			:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> seems pretty well sourced. feel free to check out some of the citations linked in the article ] (]) 18:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
	See ], ''"The Kashmir conflict is a territorial conflict primarily between India and Pakistan, having started just after the partition of India in 1947."'' While whole ] was India only. If we are going to include anything about Pakistan which is necessary since its 'Kashmir conflict', I think it would be neutral. ] (]) 16:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	: ]. There are plenty of high-quality reliable sources that focus on India's internal conflict now, e.g., {{citation \|first=Sumantra \|last=Bose \|authorlink=Sumantra Bose \|title=Kashmir: Roots of Conflict, Paths to Peace \|publisher=Harvard University Press \|year=2003 \|ISBN=0-674-01173-2 \|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=3ACMe9WBdNAC \|ref={{sfnref\|Bose, Roots of Conflict, Paths to Peace\|2003}}}}. Your contentions hold no water. -- ] (]) 16:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::You can look up the actual definition of "Kashmir conflict" if you want to, who has denied that they don't focus on internal conflicts of India? But it doesn't means we should be entirely ignoring Pakistan administered Kashmir. And your source from 2009 that you refer as "now" has greatly focused on Pakistan as well. ] (]) 16:49, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

	::: The lead of ] also clearly states:
	::: {{talkquote\|The present conflict is in Kashmir Valley.}}
	::: I hope that should give you an idea. And in any case, you can feel free to add any content regarding the conflict-related sexual abuse in Pakistan administered Kashmir, with significant source(s). There are hardly any reliable sources that discuss regarding that. So until you can prove otherwise, your argument that the current-state article is lacking a NPOV is baseless. --- ] (]) 16:58, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::Article has been expanded already. ] (]) 18:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

	== Problematic editing ==

	{{ping\|Capitals00}} Can you please explain of yours? What on earth were you starting? The content you added in the Background section is irrelevant, its not background to this subject and is out of the scope of this article. And apart from that, all you cited was ''one'' report of sexual abuse of which no source said it was used as a weapon of war. Also BBC explicitly states: {{tq\|This is the first alleged rape in Pakistan-administered Kashmir in which military personnel have been accused.}} Now how can you possibly justify inserting this in the lead? --- ] (]) 18:37, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::Don't do blanket reversion of the entire edit just because a single sentence didn't fit the source, instead you had to reword it. It seems there are more than these few scholarly sources that concern Pakistan administered Kashmir. I am removing the example from as weapon of war. Would rather make separate section for Pakistan if there are sources talking about multiple cases.
	::Also the background does fit it, it shows that when did rape actually started to take place in this entire ], as noted by reliable sources. ] (]) 18:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::: Thanks for ! You finally understood. Regards, ] (]) 23:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::Content was not well placed, but not useless either, I have created new section for Pakistan. ] (]) 09:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::: Hello ], this article is specifically for covering ''war'' rape in the present post-1989 conflict in Kashmir Valley. Please add your material to ], ], ] or other more suitable pages for your content. Thank you. ] (]) 09:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	Just out of curiosity, why are ], ], ], but not the Pakistani equivalents? Unless of course Pakistanis are truly virtuous. ], perhaps? ] (]) 10:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:Agree with ] that this article is suffering with ]. Capitals00, TylerDurden apparently agreed to include Pakistani rape violence in Kashmir, here we have over 10 reliable sources but a new SPA is censoring them. ] (]) 10:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::If you can find reliable, solid scholarly sources discussing '''war''' rape by Pakistanis inside the insurgency areas since 1990, feel welcome to add. If its not that then its not for this article. ] (]) 10:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::Then make such a senseless article title too, "Rape in Kashmir since 1989" and have it deleted soon. You are finding a excuse to carry on your disruptive ] as we can see. Thus you are lacking sense. ] (]) 10:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::: Please refrain from ]. ] (]) 10:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

	:::::: Yes, I agreed to add the ''conflict-related'' sexual abuse ''in'' Pakistan administered Kashmir, if any.
	:::::: But there are a lot of problems with the by D4iNa4. It clearly suffers from ]. Also it was again written and placed inappropriately.
	:::::: The 1947 violence by Pakistani tribesmen happened in and around ], which is today Indian administered Kashmir, they were ''not'' the incidents occurred in Pakistan administered Kashmir, as the user wrote. And as I have already said, that content does not belong here. Its out of the scope of this article. Those Pakistani tribesmen atrocities are not meant to be covered in ] or ], and apparently they are not. The same is the case with this article. Capitals00 himself removed it later, and it has to be covered in ] and ](its duly covered in this page).
	:::::: The 1970s incidents in PAK are also not related to this article. The content clearly specifies that it happened when the excessive military was deployed due to Shia-Sunni conflicts, that has got nothing to do with Kashmir conflict.
	:::::: {{tq\|Pakistani militants have been also involved in rape of Kashmiri women and torturing of prisoners.}}<ref>{{cite book\|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=m_IwDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT139&dq=Pakistani+militants\|title=Defeat is an Orphan: How Pakistan Lost the Great South Asian War\|first=Myra\|last=MacDonald\|publisher=Oxford University Press\|year=2017}}</ref>: This line again, as per source, is talking about the violence by militants in IAK, not PAK, and it has been extensively covered in this article in an explicit section.
	:::::: So again we're left with one single case of sexual abuse reported by BBC, of which I have already told, is blatantly ] to build content in this article.
	:::::: And ], kindly refrain from personal attacks and discuss only the substance. That's not at all a good practice for a responsible and rational editor of Misplaced Pages. Regards, ] (]) 11:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::::: I have to disagree with you {{U\|Tyler Durden}}. If we stick by the article title, all the events that occurred as part of the ] are included. There is no time restriction. -- ] (]) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

	: In answer to {{U\|Jim1138}}, I think we have better information available for India than for Pakistan. Also, more editors interested in writing about India (including positive and negative stuff). Nevertheless, do you have a view on the issue being discussed here? Dos this article need to cover the events in Pakistan-administered Kashmir? -- ] (]) 11:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::The article name does not appear to differentiate between the two sections, so per ], it should include Pakistan-administered Kashmir as well. ] (]) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::This article's lead and background specifies the context as the insurgency in Kashmir since 1989/90. The scholarly sources and media particularly discuss rape in Kashmir conflict in the context of the insurgency between security forces and militants. A lot of the content discussing Pakistan-administered Kashmir is jumbled up. The 1947 tribal rapes cannot be included since that is part of the 1947 war, just as rape during Jammu massacres cannot be fitted into this article. The events in Gilgit, rooted in sectarianism in Pakistan, already has its own page. (]). It has no relation to Kashmir conflict. ] (]) 11:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::: I agree with {{U\|Jim1138}} too. So, there is no time or geographical restriction. The name of the article, as chosen by its creator, covers all of the ]. Please focus on "Kashmiris" (all the inhabitants of ]) and their trauma rather than worrying about India or Pakistan. All artificial limitations placed on the scope amount to ]. -- ] (]) 11:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::: {{ping\|Kautilya3}} Yes, I agree too this. And in that case, out of the , the 1947 tribesmen atrocities alone can be included. — ] (]) 11:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

	:::::: The conflict in Kashmir which this article is seemingly covering is the post 1989 conflict. This is not just specified in the lead and background, but this is how scholarly sources discuss rape in this conflict. All rape within a particular territory and its long history does not meet the ] requirements. Please ensure that we describe a subject according to the scholarly narratives. ] (]) 11:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::TylerDurden sorry but you are not seeing the fact that the source that talks about the atrocities by Pakistani forces since October 1947 talks about whole Kashmir region that was later divided as J & K, Gilgit, Azad Kashmir. There are sources that mention their atrocities (rape, looting, lynching) in Muzaffarabad (now Pakistan), Srinagar (now India), etc. The 1970s events are also important since they tell how Pakistan military got back Kashmir under their 100% control. Problematics is just a disruptive SPA who is engaged in ]. ] (]) 11:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::::::: {{tq\|The 1970s events are also important since they tell how Pakistan military got back Kashmir under their 100% control.}}:
	::::::::: {{ping\|D4iNa4}} Do you have ] that support this? --- ] (]) 12:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::::: These events did not occur in the 1970s, they occurred in the 1980s, more a part of Sunni-Shia conflict than the Kashmir conflict. ] (]) 12:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Until Pakistani military intervened. ] (]) 12:29, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::: I am going to oppose inclusion of historical events not part of the post-1989 Kashmir insurgency. Including rapes by tribals and rapes in ]. This will just create confusion for readers since this article is quite obviously discussing only the insurgency in Kashmir and all the article's material sourced to scholarly references related to use as weapon of war, prosecution etc is discussing Kashmir conflict as the current conflict in the Valley since 1989. I oppose any anachronisation of the article's pre-existing content. ] (]) 11:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::::Hope you won't edit war over it. ] (]) 11:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	* My two cents: Unless the sources explicitly demonstrate that the single incident in ] or the event in Gilgit are a result of the Kashmir conflict/insurgency, linking the two would qualify as ] and uncorroborated ]. The current title of this article suggests that this is ''not'' a general article covering rape incidents in Kashmir. Also as someone above noted, some of the events attributed to Pakistani armed groups during the ] didn't actually occur inside Pakistani territory. ''']''' (]) 11:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::, and . ] (]) 11:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::: Thanks. Your first link mentions ], which is not in Pakistani Kashmir. Also, you are synthesizing the ] with the scope of this article which, as I pointed above, is problematic. Secondly, please try to avoid sources ]. ''']''' (]) 12:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::: by Oxford University book. ] (]) 12:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	{{outdent}} Since above consensus is clear enough to include Pakistan material, I have restored it. ] (]) 12:29, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:: No there is not, please don't cite ]. I would suggest that you refrain from performing a unilateral ] until the questions above are resolved. There is no link between the topic of the article and the content being added. ''']''' (]) 12:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::] there is consensus, D4ina4, Kautilya3, Jim1138, and Tyler Duren (partially) are in agreement to include the content. You lost the argument and the ] that you had made above, thus you can't alone surpass multiple editors. ] (]) 12:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::: First, I see no indication that all the editors named above individually approved the said content. So please don't speak for them all and violate the meaning of ], to unilaterally edit war your preferred version in. That is not consensus, and neither have you satisfactorily answered the questions put above per ]. Please also take note of ] regarding these articles. ''']''' (]) 12:38, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::You claimed that you will allow including the content only if sexual abuse by Pakistani military took place in Pakistan cities, and D4 proved that they did. I don't think we need more explanation on this. ] (]) 12:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::: I did not make such a claim. I said it must be demonstrated reliably that those events occurred in the Kashmir conflict. What you are doing is adding events from the ]. Please see ] and the point about this not being a general article on rape. ''']''' (]) 13:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

	=== Proposals ===
	Apparently, I think, there are only two ways to resolve this issue:

	* (a) Going with the title chosen by the editor, and adding the occurences of rape during ], ], ] etc in a new "History" section at the top of the article.
	* (b) Changing the article's title to <s>'Rape in ]'<s> 'Rape in ]'.

	I support (b). And the reason for my position is (a) is apparently creating a lot of complexity and confusion. With all this mess, the objective of the article is becoming vague and diluted. And it is distracting from the work of improving this article, which was earlier happening in the first section of this talk page. — ] (]) 12:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

	::I think the article should stick to the topic of rape discussed the way it is discussed in scholarly sources i.e. taking the point of conflict from 1989 onwards. For historical rapes a new page called ''Rape in Jammu and Kashmir'' should be created but this page should be left as it is as it is specifically discussing the insurgency. ] (]) 12:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:Support A. Otherwise, the article would end up getting redirected to ], just like ] was. ] (]) 12:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::* I don't believe it would. As I said ], the circumstances involved in that article and this are totally different. — ] (]) 12:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::Alternatively, keeping the article's lead and background in mind, this page should be renamed to ''Rape in Kashmir Insurgency''. But I prefer to use ''Conflict'' instead of ''insurgency'' because I believe that scholars use the former word in respect to the insurgency when discussing the topic of conflict rape in Kashmir. ] (]) 12:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::: {{ping\|Problematics}} I'm afraid, you're bringing no scholarly sources when you again and again say, "scholars use" something! — ] (]) 12:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::: Oh I can find plenty but there's enough which are mentioned in the article's references and bibliography itself. If you open the sources used, you will find that each discussion on rape in Kashmir focuses on rape during the insurgency. You can check each and every reference used in the article and see if historical rapes are discussed alongside insurgency rape. The former are discussed completely separately (if at all). Can you find several scholarly sources which discusses them in the same context? Especially from amongst the sources used in this article. ] (]) 12:59, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::: I think suggestion (b) of ] will also be fine. ] (]) 13:22, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::::: You're missing the point of this discussion. I know scholars focus explicitly on rapes during the insurgency, i.e. after 1989, when they discuss about "Rape in Kashmir". But no scholar said rapes in history, i.e. since 1947, should ''not'' be covered when we use particularly the title "Rape in ''Kashmir conflict''". So, the present title allows the inclusion of all the events of sexual abuse that occurred as part of the ]. While the article with the title "Rape in ]" can only focus and elaborate on the rapes that occurred in Indian administered Kashmir. Regards, ] (]) 13:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	* {{ping\|Tyler Durden}} Just a question regarding the above. Would Proposal B turn it into a general article, like ]? Or would its focus still very much be the conflict/insurgency? If any of it involves whitewashing the latter as some above were trying to do, then I cannot favour this proposal. ''']''' (]) 13:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:::::: Yes, ], that is why I now agree to your proposal B. Historic rapes can have another article created for them, but they should not disturb the coherency of this article. ] (]) 13:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	: {{U\|Mar4d}} I understand your concern, I too had that. But I was hopeful since ] did not meet that misfortune. If we want to avoid any risks, then we will have to go with "Rape in Kashmir conflict, Indian administered Kashmir", which I have to admit is obviously a lengthy and not so subtle title! — ] (]) 13:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	: Also, however there are several scholarly sources, as cited in this article, that use "Rape in Kashmir" as a title, to deal exclusively with the conflict-related sexual abuse in Jammu and Kashmir. So I don't think that such problem would occur. — ] (]) 14:01, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

	:: What about the title "'''Rape in Kashmiri Insurgency'''"? ] (]) 13:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::: Yes! Actually, that's a good idea. Since the lead of the ] article, with RS, clearly states:
	::: {{talkquote\|The ''insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir'' or the ''Kashmiri Insurgency'' is a '''conflict between''' various Kashmiri separatists and nationalists sometimes known as "ultras" (extremists), and the Government of India.}}
	::: — ] (]) 14:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	{{reflist-talk}}

	*'''A'''', just like what it actually is, discounting the ] and ]. B lacks enough sense. You can find 100s of sexual violence reports about every state in any democratic nation, therefore whole article would be ]. ] (]) 15:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	:: {{tq\|You can find 100s of sexual violence reports about every state in any democratic nation}}: not the ones widely committed by that ''nation's security forces'' and ''militants'' as a ''weapon of war'', unless there is a ''conflict'' in that state. — ] (]) 15:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

	=== Time out ===
	I think there is too much talking going on but not enough thinking. Please take a time out, go off and think about it for a couple of days, and contemplate what a reader looking at a page called '''Rape in Kashmir conflict''' expects to see. It seems that all the involved editors are focused on what they want to write about rather than what the topic is supposed to be.

	If need be, we can do an RfC to find out what the general community thinks about it. But I think that, if all the ediors think about it with calmer heads, they will see the picture. -- ] (]) 14:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

	: What, according to you, would a reader looking at a page called '''Rape in Kashmir conflict''' expects to see? — ] (]) 14:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::Rape issues in entire Kashmir, not just Pakistan and India but also China. ] (]) 15:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	::: China administered Kashmir? Then you would be documenting issues of sexual abuse in a region that is almost uninhabitable. — ] (]) 15:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	==Forced marriages==
	@], By the definition of rape , forced marriages cannot be considered as rapes because you never know what happened after marriage was done, after some days it can happen mutually. These cases are indeed human right abuses but not rapes clearly. ] (]) 16:50, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	: Well, I understand what you're saying. But my point is, the aspect of forced marriages is pretty much closely related to the subject of 'rape in the conflict' and so let it stay here. Because please try to understand my concern, the entries which you were removing have been inserted in this article after removing them from other two-three broader articles while cleaning them up, and this article's page was linked there. So when you contest the content's deletion, it would lead to the complete omitting of those particular 'forced marriages' abuses by the militants from the Misplaced Pages, which is utterly naive. It brings back the dilemma of — ''where'' to add those ''incidents'' of abuse again, in ''which'' of the broader human rights abuse articles. And we'll probably see those entries once again in every broader article related to the content. Editor {{U\|Problematics}} has perhaps realized these issues and hence relaxed with listing them separately below the incidents of rape . Regards, ] (]) 21:12, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
	]
	Well you can use ] for human right abuses in Kashmir, but the addition of these here is beyond the very scope of this article. We are only concerned with rapes not forced marriages. ] (]) 11:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
	==Page move==
	@], Why is it controversial to move this page, it discusses the specific topic of rape after insurgency only. so the proper name should be Rape in Kashmir Insurgency. ] (]) 15:43, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
	: You need to file ]. -- ] (]) 17:44, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

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ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:40, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

While I agree that Islamic militants have a history of raping Hindu women and Jihad against Hindus, there is no evidence that those were Islamic militants dressed in Indian army.Thelordofsword (talk) 12:37, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

ACCUSING THE INDIAN ARMY OF ORCHESTRATING MASS RAPES IS AN UTTER TRAVESTY. CORRECT THIS CONTENT RIGHT AWAY. 103.57.236.55 (talk) 18:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Not done: seems pretty well sourced. feel free to check out some of the citations linked in the article Cannolis (talk) 18:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

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