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Latest revision as of 17:51, 2 February 2022

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. This meets WP:GNG as the subject is covered in multiple WP:RS.The article's NPOV and title issues may be discussed on the article's talk page.Winged Blades 07:01, 21 May 2017 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Isaaq genocide

Isaaq genocide (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

1. (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
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• The article is trying to make it seem that the Isaaq clan of Somalis solely were targeted by the regime. This is not the case as illustrated below by the many sources provided, the Hawiye and Majerteen suffered the same problem. Secondly the Isaaq are not a different people or ethnic, but are rather Somalis themselves, so the term genocide would not be fitting for the title in accordance with the Encyclopedia Britannica. Moreover I believe every form of clan cleansing or massacre should be discussed in 1 page as this article could lead to a Pandora box of different pages discussing the atrocities committed to certain Somali clans. The author in this case is trying to portray the Isaaq as different or more special than other Somalis, WP:Propaganda.. Last but not least the Isaaq clan are not victims themselves and a combined SNM+Ethiopian unit has mounted attacks on neighboring clans, leveling their main towns to the ground, killing thousands and causing around 80.000 to flee over the border into Ethiopia and killing hundreds of non-combat civilians in the Sanaag region. . differences between them and other clans as they are all ethnic Somalis. . Those differences are what legally defines a genocide.. In addition, the majority of the events already mentioned and those of other clans are current present on the Somali Rebellion article. as AcdiSnow mentioned on talk page After reviewing this users past edits, such as: continuously removing its territorial dispute with neighboring region Puntland in favor of Somaliland (see here, here, here, here, here, and here), changing the map of Somaliland to present it as separate nation (see here, here, and here), removing the disputed Khatumo State (see here), and changing Somalia's map to present its dispute with its Somaliland region as if it had some form of international recognition (see here, here, and here), the majority of the events already mentioned and those of other clans are current present on the Somali Rebellion article. this article seems to be further WP:PROPAGANDA. Due to the reasons mentioned this article should be deleted. Somajeeste (talk) 04:00, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 04:33, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 04:33, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Somalia-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 04:33, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• Delete or rename I think the title of the page is biased since it suggests that Barre was targeting Isaaq. that's untrue, because several major Isaaq cities such as Borama and Erigabo remaied virtually untouched by Barre. Also, Barre in general targeted others such as the Majeerteen community who are part of his own larger Darod tribe. Such POV can be remedied by a change in article title with a rewrite, such as Somalia massacres (1988-1991). If thats impossible, then I suggest a delete, because this article as it stands is misinforming. Futhermore the neologism "Isaaq genocide" is well known as primarily a promotion tactic used by advocates of Somaliland independence to promote secession. Therefore this title falls foul of Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policies. Barre, as an authoritarian targeted anyone who disobeyed him; therefore he was obviously going to target the SNM rebels in Hargeisa. There is as yet not a consensus in reliable sources that the Barre purges constituted a genocide. Also, the page was created by someone with an extremely strong Somaliland-indepence POV. 92.6.188.30 (talk) 11:39, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• With respect to Erigavo, that statement is incorrect, Erigavo suffered atrocities including both killings and mass arrests . This is particularly significant because despite the fact that the SNM did not attack the city, Isaaq civilians were still targeted and killed by government forces , , , an evacuated foreign aid worker described the situation there as: "Genocide is the only word for it." . With respect to Borama, the town is exclusively inhabited by the Gadabuursi clan , , which further supports the notion that the Barre regime engaged in selective targeting of the Isaaq by engaging its troops in towns and regions inhabited by them. Koodbuur (talk) 21:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - Full disclosure I am one of the main contributors to this article. This AfD nomination is completely baseless. One look at the article and the sources it cites makes this very clear. Lumping all killings by the same perpetrator under one article without any regard to WP:GNG is not of benefit in this encyclopedic platform, merits of every article should be looked at based on Misplaced Pages's core content policies: If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list as per WP:SIGCOV.

The nominator claims that "the article is trying to make it seem that the Isaaq clan of Somalis solely were targeted by the regime." This is categorically false, if you read the article you will see that it stresses that "Other groups were also targeted by Barre's regime, but according to many observers, including the International Crisis Group, "no other Somali community faced such sustained and intense state-sponsored violence" as the Isaaq". The article further illustrates this point in citing African historian, Lidwien Kapteijns who discussed this very point, namely the "targeting of Isaaq people as a distinct group in relation to other groups targeted by the Barre government states" and also provides a quote addressing this specific point, i.e. comparing what the Isaaqs have suffered in relation to other groups:

Collective clan-based violence against civilians always represents a violation of human rights. However, when its goal is to exterminate and expel large numbers of people based on their group identity alone, it becomes clan cleansing. No one has suggested this term for the collective brutalization of the people of Mudug . However, for the Northwest , this and even stronger terms (such as genocide) are regularly used.

University of Oxford scholar Mohamed Haji Ingiris also discusses this very aspect of relating the Isaaq genocide to what other groups have suffered, and he makes a clear distinction between the experience of other groups (Majeerteen) relating more to 'a massacre' vs the experience of Isaaq being 'a genocide':

Sémelin identifies two distinctions on the intentions of the génocidaires: the first is to destroy the enemy in order to subjugate, the other to eradicate. It is his definition of massacre—“a form of action that is most often collective and aimed at destroying noncombatants”—that is most applicable to other terror campaigns. This too was a useful framework for understanding Siad Barre’s purpose, unlike the genocide on the Isaaq, which was to defeat and destroy the backbone and political base of the Omar Mohamoud/Majeerteen as a subclan in order for them to surrender themselves to the regime (and this happened later) but not to completely eradicate them as a clan.

Please also note that a United Nations investigation concluded that Isaaq genocide did occur , the investigation was conducted by Senior Human Rights Adviser at the United Nations Chris Mburu. Furthermore, the subject has received coverage from numerous sources, on the scholarship side this includes a number of prominent genocide scholars, including Israel Charny executive director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem, Gregory Stanton Professor in Genocide Studies and founder and president of Genocide Watch, Deborah Mayersen former Program Leader for the Prevention of Genocide and Mass Atrocities at The Asia-Pacific Centre for the Responsibility to Protect at The University of Queensland, and Adam Jones Professor of Genocide studies at The University of British Colombia, to name a few. All discussing the Isaaq genocide specifically as a stand-alone subject, and not lumping it with any other incident. The topic also received substantial coverage in international media outlets, examples of coverage in print include The Guardian and The Washington Post as well as in film evidenced by a documentary by Al Jazeera .

The nominator did not offer arguments or evidence that explain how the article violates policy WP:Delete. The article topic is valid and encyclopedic, it meets WP:GNG, WP:NPOV, WP:ORGIND, WP:V and it is indeed not WP:NOR and thus abides by the principal core content policies of Misplaced Pages.

Please note that this is nothing but a malicious retaliatory report. The initiator has a long history of disruptive edits to this project (Somaliland-related articles) including vandalism and removal of content , , , unsubstantiated accusations of harassment , false reports of edit-warring that ends with them getting WP:BOOMERANG blocked , coming back after the block and continuing to edit war despite past violations and clear warning from admins link, SPI filings just because someone opposed their views that go nowhere link, the list is very long, so please note this aspect of this filing.Kzl55 (talk) 12:45, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep - Per above, delete rationale is flawed. Article meets WP:GNG.Kzl55 (talk) 12:53, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep The topic of the article is obviously notable, receiving wide coverage both academically and in international media as cited by Kzl55 above. Many international forensic experts have investigated this genocide , the discovery of many mass graves located in and around Isaaq towns, villages, and cities received world wide coverage by the likes of CNN , Al Jazeera and others. The latest investigation was conducted by the Peruvian Forensic Anthropology team just two months ago in March, the investigation unearthed a new mass grave in Berbera with 17 bodies found, this is just one example of many .

The largest memorial in the centre of the capital city is located in freedom square Hargeisa War Memorial , it is dedicated to this genocide and reads (in remembrance of 1988). This page should not be deleted as it provides information on a significant topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciiseciise007 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep as per significant coverage in reliable sources. Somajeeste's concerns with the article's content should be discussed on its talk page and changes made if necessary, but we shouldn't be deleting an article because an editor doesn't think that the subject meets the definition of genocide (that's original research), when there are reliable sources calling it a genocide. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:36, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
• Delete or rename - As per Somaajeeste, most reliable sources on the bombardment appear to refer to it as a conflict between the Somalia government and the Isaaq clan-dominated Somali National Movement rebel group; particularly those dating from that actual time period. Also, "Isaaq genocide" has zero Google Ngrams compared to "Somali National Movement" . This indicates that the latter is indeed the scholarly WP:COMMONNAME. Soupforone (talk) 03:52, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

• It's possible that the article does need to be renamed, but I don't understand the rationale of your suggested title, Soupforone. The Somali National Movement is a group, not the organised killing of Isaaq civilians. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:57, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
• As per Cordless Larry above, the Somali National Movement was a group, where as the article's topic is the government sanctioned genocide targeted at civilian members of the Isaaq clan, most of the reliable sources make this distinction clear, be it in print The Washington Post (1990) "In Somalia, the Isaaq clan is the target of government genocide." , or as cited by genocide scholars: "Survivors of genocide, that is, people belonging to the group targeted for genocide. In Somalia this was the Issaq tribe, in Rwanda the Tutsi...." Adam Jones , or even in official United Nations investigations concluding "Based on the totality of evidence collected in Somaliland and elsewhere both during and after his mission, the consultant firmly believes that the crime of genocide was conceived, planned and perpetrated by the Somali Government against the Isaaq people" . Given the clarity with which reliable sources make this distinction, it seems the nomination for either deletion or renaming is inappropriate. The article abide by WP:GNG and should be kept due to significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources as per first comment above. Kzl55 (talk) 08:56, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

• Delete or rename This is totally misleading all this information can be found on Somali civil war all Rebells after regime collapse fought each other but not the scal of "Hargeisa Holocust" shows how far the propaganda goes to this page, yes there are some atrocities but not the scale of Rwanda we can be called genocide.Wy1238 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:28, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

— Wy1238 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. TimothyJosephWood 13:32, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

• Please explain how it is misleading. You clearly feel very strongly about this, having created your account just to respond to this AfD. The 'Hargeisa Holocaust' label was used by University of Oxford scholar Mohamed Haji Ingiriis , it was also used by former British MP Chris Mullin to describe what took place. Is that what you are objecting to? I ask because it is just a cited note, your objection to one sentence does not warrant the deletion of the entire article. Misplaced Pages articles rely on the use of reliable sources, and many reliable source, across multiple platforms have discussed what took place and described it as a genocide. Kzl55 (talk) 13:07, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

• Note to closing admin: This AfD seems to be attracting comments (both keep and delete) from very new users with little previous editing experience. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:25, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
• KeepThis article should be kept. It cites numerous reputable sources which I won't list here. The premise for deletion is also flawed, Just because the Isaaq are Somalis and were targeted by another Somali doesn't mean that it should not be referred to as a genocide, members of this were targeted by the former regime solely based on lineage.

As to a statement made by the person who started the discussion, I do not think the article in discussion attempts to make the Isaaq in any way "special", that was not the impression I got from the article. ICL2014 (talk) 12:02, 14 May 2017 (UTC)ICL2014

— ICL2014 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. TimothyJosephWood 13:38, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

• Note to closing admin: The nominator has violated WP:CANVASS and solicited support for their position to delete the article. This has been reported to the Administrators' noticeboard link.Kzl55 (talk) 13:14, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
• Keep - Bias is not a valid rationale for deletion, and AfD is not an avenue to do an end run around substantive discussion aimed at addressing whatever bias there is. See also WP:IDONTLIKEIT. TimothyJosephWood 13:30, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
• Keep Passes GNG, and also the above keep !votes. An RfC for renamung can be held later if necessary. d.g. L3X1 (distant write) 15:26, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:06, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:07, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment It also seems that the creator of this page has misrepresented the sources. For example, text on source 121 states that Africa Watch was conducting multiple interviews describing separation of tribes in Burao (in plural). In reality the source states that a single woman made such a claim. The page creator's tendency to blow minor witness statements out of proportion and to deceptively transfer an unfounded Isaaq rumour to the voice of a neutral African magazines makes him/her a unreliable editor who misrepresents sources and therefore he/she can't be trusted to represent sources accurately. I don't have the time or patience to check for any other source misrepresentation, but someone ought to check it out to see how much of this article is a manipulated distortion. On first glance, it doesn't look good. 92.6.188.30 (talk) 02:29, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
• Keep - a quick BEFORE shows plenty of sources referring to Isaaq+genocide. Whether an act of violence is genocide or not is often a political question - particularly close to the event - and sometimes even more than 100 years (Armenian Genocide & Armenian Genocide denial), as in the wake of the "never again" post-holocaust political environment it is advantageous to claim genocide. Misplaced Pages shouldn't play politics - if there are enough political claims to genocide - it should be in - and the criticism of whether this is a genocide or not should also be covered - with weighting according to the prevalence of this view.Icewhiz (talk) 08:27, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep Siad Barre was targeted only Isaaq clan because SNM Most of them were Isaaq clan and SNM has much popular in northern Somalia, which now Somaliland.Somalia's civil war began from northern Somalia,which now Somaliland from the border with Ethiopia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lakmi00 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep the Isaaq clan is the target of government genocide. The Isaaq-based Somali National Movement (SNM), an insurgency group headquartered in Ethiopia for years, invaded Somalia in mid-1988 and now controls a large part of the north.

The government's response has been brutal. An aerial bombing campaign devastated large sections of the cities and productive areas in the north. Wells have been poisoned, villages have been burned and Isaaq civilians have been rounded up and executed by government troops. President Barre has also supplied weapons to Ethiopian refugees inside Somalia and to opposition Ethiopian groups to attack Isaaq civilians. Africa Watch estimates that 50,000 Somali citizens have been killed during the past year and a half, the majority being Isaaq civilians. Siirski (talk) 18:37, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

References

1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1990/07/01/genocide-in-the-horn-of-africa/b6f59cf0-5061-4223-82fb-35e6a7109b46/

• Rename to Somali massacres 1988-1991. If true this is a terrible affair about which WP should have an article. However, genocide is killing people because of their race (etc). This reads like the repression of a rebellion, which is not quite the same thing. The present text seeks to be a history of Somaliland from independence and lack NPOV. However it ought to be rescuable. Peterkingiron (talk) 19:42, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

• Some definitions of genocide include acts targeted at clans, Peterkingiron. See, for example, this. Nonetheless, I think we should title the article according to how sources describe the subject rather than using our own judgement of what is and isn't genocide - but that's a discussion for the article talk page. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:14, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Noted, but I am still not sure that this constitutes a genocide. In saying "people", I was seeking to include any ethnic or quasi-ethnic group, which would certainly include a tribe, and perhaps a clan. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

• Peterkingiron, please note that the use of genocide is in accordance with a United Nations investigation, conducted by a UN senior human rights advisor, which concluded: "based on the totality of evidence collected in Somaliland and elsewhere both during and after his mission, the consultant firmly believes that the crime of genocide was conceived, planned and perpetrated by the Somali Government against the Isaaq people" , in addition to its use by scholarship including genocide scholarship: , , , , , , , , . Kzl55 (talk) 20:24, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep- In accordance with WP:GNG, this article has merit in terms of notability and there is no reason for its deletion. This article possesses a considerable amount of scholarly references as listed above by Kzl55 that clearly indicate that the events that took place against the Isaaq people between 1988 and 1991 constitutes a genocide, and comply with Misplaced Pages’s notability guidelines.

Tony Worthington, a retired British parliamentarian, described the devastation that he witnessed when visiting Hargeisa in 1992 as an MP who was part of the Select Committee on International Development:

The devastation was caused by the country's ruler, Siad Barre. In 1988, we had the extraordinary situation in which Barre's aircraft would take off from Hargeysa airport, bomb and strafe the city, load up again at the airport and carry on. They continued until there were 50,000 dead in Hargeysa and hundreds of thousands dead in the rest of Somaliland. Those people are now buried in mass graves, and the rest of the population fled. That was the most extreme attempt at genocide against the dominant Isaq clan, but the world ignored it. Source

All in all, the article is well sourced, notable, and of encyclopedic merit and should not be deleted. Koodbuur (talk) 21:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep The delete request has offered no persuasive community-agreed reason to delete this article. None of the criteria 1-13 of WP:DEL-REASON apply in this case. WP:PROPAGANDA is alleged, which qualifies as criteria 14, but the topic has been covered in WP:RS published by reputable sources such as Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Cornell University Press, University of Pennsylvania Press, Springer, etc and an article attempting to summarize these views is neither WP:WWIN nor the intent of that guideline. See further discussions and quotes from WP:RS on the Talk:Isaaq genocide page. All this means the topic meets the "verifiability, reliable sources and notability" criteria. The article's NPOV and title issues need to be discussed on the article's talk page per WP:ATD (see the January discussion). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:00, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
• Delete or Revamp This page gives off the misleading impression that the government somehow had it out for the Isaaq clan in particular since its very inception and this is even where the WP:PROPAGANDA elements shine through given how the author of this page eventually felt the need to edit this page from its original state (where it merely outlined what happened on how many people were killed) to its current state with an extensive "background" section apparently going all the way back to the "Precolonial era". That section, in particular, highlights the propagandic nature at play here because what happened to the Somali Isaaq clan was as simple as this:

As per Somaajeeste, most reliable sources on the bombardment appear to refer to it as a conflict between the Somalia government and the Isaaq clan-dominated Somali National Movement rebel group; particularly those dating from that actual time period. Also, "Isaaq genocide" has zero Google Ngrams compared to "Somali National Movement" . This indicates that the latter is indeed the scholarly WP:COMMONNAME. (quoted from Soupforone)

Siad Barre's regime was simply reacting in a brutal and ghastly manner to the Somali-National-Movement's formation and actions yet this article makes it look as though there has always been some sort of "Isaaq problem" in Somalia and that this is what somehow led to an eventual so-called genocide. What's even more troubling is what Somalijeeste has noted:

"as AcdiSnow mentioned on talk page After reviewing this users past edits, such as: continuously removing its territorial dispute with neighboring region Puntland in favor of Somaliland (see here, here, here, here, here, and here), changing the map of Somaliland to present it as separate nation (see here, here, and here), removing the disputed Khatumo State (see here), and changing Somalia's map to present its dispute with its Somaliland region as if it had some form of international recognition (see here, here, and here), the majority of the events already mentioned and those of other clans are current present on the Somali Rebellion article. this article seems to be further WP:PROPAGANDA."

It's quite obvious that the creator of this page is essentially a Somaliland-Nationalist adding yet another notch onto a long-line of WP:PROPAGANDA. The purpose this page serves likely being that it will hopefully fester some sort of deep grievance between Isaaq clan Somalis and the reset of their brethren in the Somali-Peninsula as well as act as some sort of source to utilize in public discourse when arguing for why Somaliland should separate. If this page won't be deleted; I recommend the removal of at least the "Background" section which the page's author decided to just tack on of his own volition and, as other editors have suggested, the renaming or revamping of this article to be about the atrocities suffered by all the Somali clans at the hands of both state and non-state actors. Although, that might be unnecessary as we already have the Somali Rebellion article for just that. So I recommend a deletion more than a revamping. Awale-Abdi (talk) 06:38, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

• I will not respond to any WP:PERSONAL attacks, please stick to the topic at hand. The extensive background section was important to place the subject in context for the reader, your claim that there is an ulterior motive for this is unfounded. Please see similar structure in other related articles, including a background section with a pre-colonial sub-heading, you can start with Rwandan genocide. You have neglected to state exactly how the article fails WP:GNG which govern whether or not a subject is notable enough to warrant its own article. You should not be questioning what the purpose of the page is, but you can question if it complies with WP policy. Worthy of note is even in its 'original state' as you call it, when it had neither a background section nor a pre-colonial subheading, you voted to delete the article in a previous AfD nomination attempt as well .

Note to closing admin: Please be aware that the editor above (Awale-Abdi) per their own admission, belongs to the same Darod clan family as the perpetrator of the genocide General Siad Barre (link), this may explain bias observed in their vote (both times) as they share clan identity with named figures responsible for the killing such as Barre, Morgan and others. Please also note that, by their own admission, Awale-Abdi is also an acquaintance of AcidSnow (the nominator of the first AfD attempt) as per their admission , this is important because Awale-Abdi came here to vote for deletion having not posted anything for the last 30 days as per Special:Contributions/Awale-Abdi, and this somehow coincided with AcidSnow's first post in four months Special:Contributions/AcidSnow on the exact same day. Both of them came back to WP after long absence and their first posts back were separated by minutes (Awale-Abdi, 05:59) and (AcidSnow, 05:13, ) which strongly suggests collusion and canvassing outside of Misplaced Pages. The nominator of this AfD has already canvassed editor Soupforone and a report was filed link. Please also note that AcidSnow (nominator of the first AfD) and Somajeeste (nominator of the current AfD) are being investigated for sockpuppetry here Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/AcidSnow. Kzl55 (talk) 16:14, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Both of you, Awale-Abdi and Kzl55, please avoid commenting on each other and please assume good faith. Just focus on valid arguments citing the reliable sources and appropriate guidelines. Awale-Abdi: multiple RS and scholarly sources do characterize this as Isaaq genocide (click on books and scholar links in the two Find Sources at the top of this page). The article attempts to summarize these sources. Given that many RS discuss this sensitive topic, why do you believe the article is WP:PROPAGANDA? For the revamp part of your "delete or revamp" vote, please list any reliable source(s) with a different POV that have not been summarized yet. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:18, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.