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== Move request ==
==Possible addition to the disclaimer==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''


The result of the proposal was '''withdrawn'''. ] (]) 05:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
See ] and . ] 03:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


According to the traffic stats and , the article for the city (]) receives about twice as much traffic as the article for the person (]) which is certainly ''more'', but not (I think) so ''overwhelmingly'' more that the city qualifies as a primary usage for the name "Bolzano" (and the various disputes <s>above</s> '']'' over the proper name for the city simply underscores this fact.)
== Age of Otzi ==


I propose that the article on the city be moved to ] and that ] be made a redirect to ] (or the disambiguation page moved here.) --] (]) 21:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Material in the museum in Bolzano-Bozen puts his estimated age at 40 to 53 ...


*'''Strongly oppose''' That's what headers are for; this one required expansion. If there are two principal articles likely to be searched for as ''Bolzano'', we don't make ''everybody'' click twice, when we can let half of them get where they want to go immediately. ] <small>]</small> 22:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
== Bernard Bolzano ==

I propose moving ] to ], since the latter should really be used as a disambiguation page rather than a redirect to this page. A quick Google search for "bolzano" turns up about 1.3 million results, half of which seem to be for the city and half of which are for the person ] (and the top result is actually for the person). --] 20:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

:I also found a mention ] about the reasons for the original move. If nobody objects in either of these discussions within a few days, I'll go ahead and make the move. --] 20:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

== Bolzano moved to "Bozen-Bolzano" ==

As an Italian city, should the article be listed under the Italian name Bolzano?

] 06:39, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The city could be named int he two way: Bolzano or Bozen, this does not mean that its name is Bozen-Bolzano or Bolzano-Bozen. Put the articol under on of the two name (Bolzano or Bozen) and put a redirect on the other, but there is not a city called Bozen-Bolzano. ] 10:13, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

:In my opinion, the article should be "Bolzano", with a redirect from "Bozen". ] 11:42, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

If anything, the double name should be in the form "Bolzano-Bozen", since Bolzano is a bilingual italian city, but it's still in Italy. On ], the data panel lists the city as "Bolzano (Bozen)". ] 11:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

:I think the current way of naming has been agreed upon after a lenghty edit war, no point in stirring it up again, I suggest to leave it the current way since Bozen is with an italian majority, however is the capital city of Südtirol which is german speaking. In that case it could be argued, that ] be renamed into ] only, since the population there is German-speaking. However for the sake of harmony and language-equality better to leave it the way it is. ] 16:23, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

::As we are in the English version of the Misplaced Pages, the English more common naming convention should be used. A Google.com search in English language for .uk domains gives the following results:
::- city bolzano: 15.800 pages
::- "bolzano-bozen": 1.300 pages
::- city bozen: 470 pages
::- "bozen-bolzano": 357 pages
::] 18:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

:I didn't know this project was called "Googlepedia" :-) Again, there are language sensitivities and it seems that this is the format that has been agreed upon. For the sake of harmony I would not push this issue further. ] 00:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

During the summer I raised the issue of moving the South Tyrolian locations to Italian article names at ]. Markussep pointed out the current compromise system, which I find acceptable. ] 17:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

::It isn't a matter of keeping German or Italian names: we have to use English names. If Googlepedia is not the right way to sample common English, could it be , or ? ] 19:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

:::Sorry, but if you find 99 wrong pages, then Misplaced Pages has to follow??!
:::'''Bozen has two names. Officially. In 2005. Not one. ''' Even if you don't like it.
:::Misplaced Pages IS NOT Encarta and IS NOT Britannica. It is better. It shows the reality.
:::Especially an Italian wishing to delete german South-Tyrolean names really gives a strange impression about the way Italy treats minorities... ] ] 19:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

::::Also: Why is there a redirect from Peking to Beijing. Everyone knew Peking, but "it was decided" that the official name is Beijing. So, if there are two official names for a city, we don't follow, only if there is one? Or are the Chinese leaders more important to Misplaced Pages then some German speaking people who are always suppressed by italians (as you see here)? ] ] 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

:::I agree with the above user. Any moves to strike everything down for Italian names to me does not sound objective or neutral anymore, it is a ]. If Italian users want to use the name ], that's fine they can do that in the Italian Misplaced Pages. And the German ones can use ] in the German one. However this is an English-International Misplaced Pages version, so obviously we have to be as neutral as possible. It is not easy, but it is possible. German and Italian are both official languages in South Tyrol, therefore the double names, why is this so difficult to accept? ] 23:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

::::Even if German and Italian are both official languages in Alto Adige, in the English Misplaced Pages we have to use the name used by the English speaking people. People in Florence speak Italian, but the right title for the page is Florence, not Firenze. -- ] 07:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::If someone says in Misplaced Pages "we have to..." he does not understand Misplaced Pages.
:::::Misplaced Pages is about a neutral point of view mixed with common sense.
:::::Pietro, before you speak about "we have to" please try to understand how Misplaced Pages works. A hint: it has something to do with "working together", "understand each other" and "showing respect" (that is particularely missing in your first post in this thread...) ] ] 16:52, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::PS: In case don't understand why you don't respect other people: Bolzano is not an "Italian" city, it is a city where German and Italian speaking people live, incorporated as a autonomous province in the terretory of Italy.

::::::Fantasy, my first post was due to the fact that this article (and some other else) have been renamed without any previous discussion about this action: opening a discussion about the name of a page is my sense of "working together", "understand each other" and "showing respect".

::::::Concerning Bolzano, according Misplaced Pages it is an ]: in my opinion, this point is something to respect at the same level of the rights of the German people living in Bolzano, as described in the article.

::::::As for what Misplaced Pages "has to do", in my understanding "being rigorous" about the info we publish is one of the main goal: showing respect to people accessing to en.Misplaced Pages to know how English people name Bolzano, for instance, "we have to" publish the right info, not a compromise between personal POV. -- ] 22:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

=== A proposal from a meeting between german and italian speaking Wikipedians ===
:I just saw that italian and german speaking Wikipedians sat down together this weekend and found a kind of compromise: ]
:one line is interresting ''"for Cities an villages in South Tyrol the german name shut be used if there are more etnic germans then italians (the same for ladin villages)"''
:Does this mean, that cities with italian majority should just have the italian name?
:And that every time a "majority" changes the article name has to be changed (as it happens in Finnland with village-names)?
:If this would be accepted as a general en.Misplaced Pages rule I think I could life with it. What do others say to this?
:Maybe there are compromises out there, where we can meet, i hope so :-) ] ] 17:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I think we should stick on bureaucracy. Since Bolzano/Bozen is an Italian city, and not a German one, and is also the only city in South Tyrol which is inhabited by more Italian-speaking people than German-speaking, using Bozen/Bolzano instead of the other one is just anachronistic nationalism. On our identity card documents are written first in Italian and then in German - that's clear since Bolzano/Bozen is in Italy. Also all road signs are written on the first line in Italian and on the second one in German, when quite everywhere else in South Tyrol the roads are written first in German and then in Italian, or they don't even have an Italian name. When you arrive at Bolzano/Bozen station you find the sign "Bolzano/Bozen", not "Bozen/Bolzano".
Bolzano is a city placed in Italy nearly from a century, so it is clear that non-German speakers tend to use the Italian name instead of the German one. Bolzano/Bozen became a big city just because many Italians migrated there (and also obviously because of the Options that chased many of the previous German inhabitants), so it is logical to think of Bolzano primarily as an Italian city.
The other big populated centers in South Tyrol are mainly of German language and it is right to leave them with the German name first; but Bolzano is a full Italian town where also the most part of Germans speak normally the other language.

I'm congratulating with Fantasy for his work on this page, but the choice of moving it to Bozen-Bolzano instead of Bolzano-Bozen is highly and openly unfair. Also each page with Bozen-Bolzano in its name should be changed according to this, leaving the rest of South Tyrolean cities the way they are.

--] 17:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
:There are streets in Bozen, witch aren' translated for beeing Names, der are also street with to completly different names like vic. sabbia - zum Talfergries and Kaiserau - Il Bivio if the street is called like Via Peter-Mair-Straße the italian via is everywhere the first You say Via ''NN'' in italian and ''NN''-Straße in german--] 12:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

::I was not talking about how streets are translated from one language to another, but about the fact that street signs in Bolzano/Bozen are written _everywhere_ with the first line in Italian and the second line in German. That's something that doesn't happen in other cities in South Tyrol (maybe in some towns near BZ like Laives/Leifers or Bronzolo/Branzoll, but I don't swear it since I didn't notice the signs last times I've been there).
::Since the street names are probably ordered on the population base, I think that criteria should be strictly followed, enforced by street signs criteria. Therefore at least the following inhabitated centers:
::* Bolzano/Bozen
::* Laives/Leifers
::* Salorno/Salurn
::* Bronzolo/Branzoll
::which are mainly inhabited by Italians, as written on , should have a page with the first name in Italian. That's a good compromise that shouldn't hurt anyone within its nationalism. --] 12:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

== The whole history of the "Option" does not belong to this page. ==

Sorry to start another flame. But I think it is more appropriate to put the history of the Option in the South Tyrol page and remove it from this page. It really affected the whole region, not just Bolzano.

--] 20:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

== Wrong name of this article ==

"According to the 2001 census, 73% of the city inhabitants were Italian speakers."

If that is so, then why first name in the article title is in German and not in Italian? This is city in Italy with majority Italian spakers and I see no reason to have first name in German, a language spoken by only 23% of population. The name of the article should be changed to "Bolzano" or to "Bolzano-Bozen" at least. ] ] 17:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a good point, it seems that the compromise decided on above only works when it favours the Germans. Personally I think we should keep the double-barrel names (i.e. both versions) as whenever I look on atlasses of the area that I have to hand, they list both names usually slashed like Bolzano/Bozen. Since this dual naming seems to be an 'official' situation in the area I don't see any reason why we can't put both (or in Ladin areas all three) names for the towns and cities, with the majority inhabitants of that city given precedence (i.e. their version first). Following this rule, this page would be Bolzano-Bozen, while Merano's page would be Meran-Merano and for a Ladin example St. Ulrich in Gröden-Urtijëi-Ortisei (currently favouring the German name) should be Urtijëi-St. Ulrich in Gröden-Ortisei (80% are Ladin speakers, most bilingual in German hence German comes second and Italian comes last). I bet we have another edit war if someone tries to do anything that reasonable though ] 18:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
::There is no "favouring" towards any language. Since all three languages enjoy official equal status, it is irrelevant in that case who speaks more in what place. For the sake of order, in this case languages and names are listed by alphabetically. This is the most neutral solution and pre-empts any naming conflict based on number of speakers. ] 07:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
:::Excuse me, but alphabetically Bolzano come before Bozen, my friend. :))) ] ] 15:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
::::Let me clarify: Languages are listed alphabetically following the principle at the United Nations, regardless how many people speak what. Therefore the "G"erman comes before the "I"talian, etc. ] 17:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

:Isn't Bolzen german slang for going really fast in a car? I'm Sicilian so I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, if the majority of the inhabitatns are Italiani, it should have the italian name first. On the other hand...that is so far north it might as well be Germany. We Sicilian-Americans have a term for people so far north in Italia, we call them yankees =P.--] 21:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

=== Voting ===

Because of the reasons explained above, I request that name of this article is changed and I propose voting about this. ] ] 11:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
:Please add your comments to the survey and discussion at the top of the page. Thanks. ]] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 20:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

<!--==== Name of the article should be changed to Bolzano-Bozen ====
#] ] 11:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
#--] 20:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
#--]] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
#--]
#--] 20:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
#--] 21:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)-->


<!--==== Article should keep name Bozen-Bolzano ====
#] 31 July 2006 '''I'm from Bozen-Bolzano and I'm Italian speaking'''
#:Comment:That is what you say. :) ] ] 15:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
#--] 12:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
#--] 18:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
#] 08:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
# ] 16:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)-->

<!--'''Comment''': This survey has not been listed at ]. I will do so now. '''ANY NEW VOTES HAVE TO BE PLACED AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE''' ]] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 18:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)-->

<!--==Let's use Bolzano==
This compromise is not avoiding controversy, and it is not English usage. For more, see my comments above. ] 19:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)-->

== Removal of double names ==

Following Andrewa and Markussep advices given (as the one from Septentrionalis ) both of those criteria should be used. I agree for the elimination of double names, but I would like to remember that this kind of choice - for the many reasons given by both of you and by who's supporting the conversion to ] that such an action would automatically move the pages on Italian names, leaving German names to be redirected to that pages.

However, I think that this should be the fairest of solutions: removing the double names, even if German names are redirected to Italian ones and not vice versa, would also remove the question of "ordering". A user who enters wikipedia and writes "Bolzano" or "Bozen" would automatically be redirected to the right page, which explanes the reason why it is double-named.
The actual criteria for choosing an only language for all South Tyrolean pagenames, given the fact that there is no English-translated name, should be that English-talking people searching for the city know or want to know the actual location of the city, which is in Italy. If the name they receive is the German one there is no problem: a page for Bozen will redirect actually in Bolzano, explaining the reason for double names; so will do the page for each one of the South-Tyrolean pages.

Even if I'm Italian and I actually like being it, I think nationalist questions should be left elsewhere on both sides of this barricade. Giving an only name to this page is a matter of knowledge organization (for which wikipedia should be a reference) and not of dominion of a population on the other one that a double-named page strongly shows. If there is no double name, no matter of ordering population will be taken out, and so I think it is the best solution for this problem.
The rest of the pages should be also reordered, but I think they may remain the same. Of course the first thing we should put in evidence on the page of each city are the German and Ladin names; maybe someone could also write a page to link in forefront that explains the problem of double names, so to introduce people to reasons for choosing names of a language instead of the other one.

If this reasons are accepted (as I hope, because I think this is a community of reasoning people), therefore I propose the direct moving of this page and of all South-Tyrolean cities to the Italian names, leaving the redirect on German ones - for example: ] -> ], ] -> ] etc. Votations are something that should be left to politics, not to something scientific as an encyclopedia.

--] 17:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

:Searching for either the German, Italian or Ladin name should always result in finding the article, and it will if there are redirects. I just found the language distributions from . Most of the smaller) municipalities have a >90% German speaking majority (] just 51.5%). The exceptions with Italian and Ladin speaking majorities are:

Italian:
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]

Ladin:
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]

:I like the idea of moving the articles to the name in the language of the majority, in the absence of a common English name. Comments? ] 12:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

::If we move the pages on the name based on majority of inhabitants speaking a language we're back to the old problem: What if Merano/Meran population suddenly becomes mainly Italian? Do we have to keep watching the census and move the pages? Remember that these pages are mainly for users who don't know something about those cities, and one of the first things to know may be that they are in Italy.
::Since there are no English names, removal of double names works only if we choose a common language through all that. Sincerely, English-speaking people who live not in a German area won't receive the German name first, unless they live in the pre-World War I; since the cities are in Italy they would search the Italian name, of course, and so maybe it would be better for encyclopedic uses if all names are turned to Italian. We must think of Wiki-users before than local inhabitants, as Centrx noted on the previous talk.
::--] 19:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


::There is a common English name, just look it up in an English atlas. Anyway, it doesn't exist a city called "Bozen-Bolzano", it's so simple. Just move this article to ] (because that's the English name) or ] (so some German wikipedians will not think that they "are always suppressed by '''i'''-talians").--] 07:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there will be many changes in population composition in the near future, and there's only a census once every 10 years. Meran is the only municipality where it's really close (and the German speaking majority was larger in 2001 than in 1991). It doesn't really matter if Wiki-users start searching for the German or the Italian name, if we create redirects from the other name. But I can live with moving all articles to the Italian names. (almost) Anything is better than these bi- and trilingual names. ] 17:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

:It's not a matter of what's more likely to happen, since it is equally possible that in 50 years the population languages do not change or that tomorrow all Italian people in South Tyrol and just them explode altogether leaving only ashes. If we're going to choose a stable criteria, it must not be based on local population which easily come and go (actually I'm not in Bolzano, maybe tomorrow the city becomes Bozen?); instead everything has to be ordered by the language mainly chosen by the entire community which lives not in South Tyrol.
:I think I already gave reasons to choose Italian as a first language, but I'd like to support them with these statistical datas:
:*
:*
:which show that Bolzano is overall 3 times more common than Bozen - unless obviously all people saying "Bozen" chose together to not write it on the Web. Shall we then start moving things to an only language?
:--] 18:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, but I'll put it on "Requested moves" first. ] 20:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

==Requested move (old)==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''


*'''Oppose''' - the redirect header is sufficient. The Italian name for the city is the primary usage in English (especially since the "Pass" is always used in that way). People looking for the person will find him without problem the was it is, whilst the city will get lost in a plethora of related usages. --] (]) 23:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
{{{result|The result of the debate was}}} '''No decision''', default not moved. Please discover some sources that evidence which name is the most commonly used in English. This is the standard of ] and is the proper location of an article on the English Misplaced Pages. Titles should not be hyphenated only to attest to different names; only if "Bozen-Bolzano" or "Bolzano-Bozen" were the most common name in English should either be used. After there has been agreement on which name is the most commonly used in English, you may open another Requested move; note that this is not a vote, the reasons are what counts and empty votes with no explanation of reasoning are not productive. —]→]&nbsp;&bull; 04:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


*<s>'''Incredibly, super-strongly support with extra powerful support that beats all other kinds of opposition, in virtue of its strongness'''</s> Disambiguation pages are meant to organize topics, not cut down on the number of clicks. As for primary usage, this passage from ] is relevant:
] → ] – A vote is already underway but survey has not been listed here. See talk page for details. ]] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 18:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


::'''Primary topic'''
===Survey===
::When there is a well known primary meaning for a term or phrase, much more used than any other (this may be indicated by a majority of links in existing articles or by consensus of the editors of those articles that it will be significantly more commonly searched for and read than other meanings), then that topic may be used for the title of the main article, with a disambiguation link at the top. If there's a disambiguation page, it should link back to the primary topic.
* Support. ] ] 11:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
::If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".
* Oppose. ] 31 July 2006 '''I'm from Bozen-Bolzano and I'm Italian speaking'''
* Oppose. ] 12:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
* <s>Oppose Support. ] 18:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC) changed idea --] 20:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)</s> This user has been identified as a ] and has been blocked indefinitely by ]. I am striking out this vote. ] 10:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
* '''Other'''. ] 20:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC). See the .
* Support. ]] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
* Support. ] 17:59, August 27, 2006
* '''Oppose'''. ] 08:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
* Other. In this case, there is significant English discussion of this place, and English usage is clear: ''Bolzano'' is more common, even when discussing German topics (like the life of Nietzsche). But either ''Bozen'' or ''Bolzano'' would be preferable to a name no-one uses, and which has not avoided controversy; somebody should be able to find this page directly. ] 19:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
* Oppose. But I would prefer '''a general Rule for Southtyrolean Names''', not voting for every single city/village/street/... where do we stop?. ] 16:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', and agree with Fantasy. &mdash;]<font color="green">]</font>] ] 18:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. ] 20:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. A compromise has been made at ]; any attempts to change that might be seen as bad faith. Neither name on its own is acceptable, but squabbling over the order of the two names is a complete waste of time. Perhaps "]"? "]"? --] 07:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. This is the English wikipedia, and on all of the maps I've seen, it's Bolzano-Bozen. Additionally, even ] in the area list Bolzano first. ] 14:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' (for the moment) - I think, per ], a wider discussion would need to take place for all the South Tirolean names (which could also include Ladin names, which are also officially recognised). Part of me thinks we should stick with the first name the article has on Misplaced Pages, with other official names redirecting to it (so in this case ''Bolzano'' with a redirect from ''Bozen'', but that'd conflict with the existing disambiguation page). -- ] 20:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Viva.--] 02:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' I think we should get rid of the double names for South Tyrolean places. ] 20:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Agree that the hyphenated name should instead be eliminated. ] 06:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


:As for which usage is primary in English, I'd say that's far from decided. The article on the city receives about twice the traffic as the article on the person, and has about four times the number of incoming links &mdash; but a search on google or yahoo (ignoring Misplaced Pages page results) turns up results for the person before the city. So Misplaced Pages seems to favor the city, but the web as a whole favors the person as the primary usage for the name. Since "Bolzano" isn't even agreed upon as the proper name in English (see the various past arguments in the ]) I don't see how it is at all a settled matter. (BTW, putting "strongly" in front of support/opposition is silly.) --] (]) 00:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
===Discussion===
: I don't see how the Italian should enjoy any preference over the German name in this case. All three languages are equal in Trentino-South Tyrol. So should villages with a Ladin majority have the Ladin name first? and then we count the few Italian and German speakers and argue which name comes next? Where does it end? The most simple solution is to go by the equal status, as is given in the ], and list languages alphabetically. That would be the most neutral and fair solution IMO. ] 18:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


:* '''Oppose''' Given the obvious lack of consensus for a move, and given a few more days to think about the issue and to try to think how the rest of you could be so obviously wrong yet think you're right, I've decided that you are, in fact, right. The way I think about it now that makes sense to me is that ] should only be ''at most'' a '''redirect''' to ], and would never be the canonical name for the article on the person. However, ] is ''currently'' the canonical name for the article on the city. So, given a conflict, the article on the city gets priority, and a hat note (already added by ], thank you!). '''However''' &mdash; and here is where I think I perhaps still differ from the others in the discussion &mdash; if this were a case of redirect vs. redirect or canonical name vs. canonical name, I think we would be obliged to have ] either ''be'' or ''redirect to'' the disambiguation page. This is an important point to consider, if the name of the article ever changes (again) and ] is again turned into a redirect. Anyway, I thank everyone involved for helping to sort out this issue. --] (]) 21:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but Giovanni Ivan Benussi is NOT more mayor, because the Italian government's representant in Bozen-Bolzano chose a special administrative commissioner for the city and this one has already taken Benussi's place today (23th June, 2005). Bye.
::<small>p.s. Is it appropriate at this time to delete the move template, or does that happen automatically after a certain number of days, or ... ?</small>
:::It will happen when an admin closes the move request. (It would be perfectly OK to suggest to ] that they consider closing it now.) As for Sapphic's point: It should still depend on frequency; but the frequencies here are comparable. ] <small>]</small> 01:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


*'''Oppose''' The city is the primary usage for the name Bolzano, and the person has also a first name. Editors who want to link to the city use naturally ], and those who want to link to the person use naturally ]--''']]''' 06:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Please let's get rid of these horrible bi- and trilingual article names. The article title should be one name, not two or three names in different languages. See for instance ], is it Natz in German, Schabs-Naz in Ladin and Sciaves in Italian, or is it Natz-Schabs in German and Naz-Sciaves in Italian? If there is no common name for the place in English, let's take the name that is used by the majority of the population. Take for example the French-Dutch bilingual municipalities of Brussels capital region such as ] (Oudergem in Dutch) and ] (Watermaal-Bosvoorde in Dutch). Of course there should be redirects from the names in other languages, and they should be mentioned in the first line of the article. ] 13:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


*'''Comment''' When I look for "bolzano", the first result is www.bolzano-bozen.it, and when looking for "bolzano city", its "Free University of Bozen-Bolzano". As I understand, the double naming was replaced by single name according to local language majority. Anyway, "bozen city" with 867.000 Google hits has more than twice as many as "bolzano city", so if the page is moved, it should be to ] or a double name. --&nbsp;]&nbsp;]&nbsp; 10:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
:Agree that the hyphenated names should be eliminated, and I think that's what the current ] say too. I don't agree that the preferred name should '''necessarily''' be what most of the population of the area use, although in practice that's likely to be the outcome.
::Bolzano is the Italian name, Bozen is the German name, Bolzano is the English name; English wikipedia => English name.--''']]''' 11:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
::: I actually get quite different results with Google using other search criteria (not that Google is the final arbitrator). I looked only at English pages, and removed Bernard and Bernardo from both searches to eliminate, in balance, any pages about the mathemetician. I also ignored Misplaced Pages, to keep our own pages from influencing the numbers: For "bolzano -bozen -bernard -bernardo -wikipedia" I get 298,000 pages, and for "bozen -bolzano -bernard -bernardo -wikipedia" I get 118,000 pages. That's a bit over twice as much for the Italian name, in English. And actually, all the previous search show is that the word "city" probably occurs on more German pages than Italian, since the search wasn't limited to English. A Google search as before, but only including English still favours Bolzano (although the person probably influences the numbers somewhat): 'Bolzano city' gives 452,000 and 'Bozen city' gives 98,000. While I am more than happy to call the city Bozen myself, for the English Misplaced Pages Bolzano is the proper name based on common usage and naming conventions. I also maintain my previous vote to oppose based on the fact that ] already has a disambiguation in his name (Bernard) and changing the article to ] will just mean a lot of unnecessary piping and link maintenance (no links to the person should be referring to him by last name only if the MOS is followed). And I fear that this discussion will soon no longer be about separating the city from the person, but from separating the German and the Italian sides (again). --] (]) 08:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::::(You get Matthead's results searching for "bolzano city" and "bozen city" without quotation marks)--''']]''' 09:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::: Actually, my search is without quotation marks; I had used single quotes in my previous comment hoping to eliminate the ambiguity. The only restriction I used was the advanced search option to restrict the search to English language pages. It wouldn't make sense to use quotation marks in the search (those results are very small). --] (]) 09:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Yes you're right.--''']]''' 10:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->


== Ethnicity ==
:The criterion is what most people use ''when speaking English''. This includes people whose native language is not English of course. As many people speak English at least occasionally, in many areas (such as France where English is a compulsory school subject) the local usage of the name in English will drown out any usage by outsiders. ] 06:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I'm not going to get in another edit war. I'll just come on here to state that the sentence claiming Bolzano was an ethnic German city, because 95% spoke German, is bogus. Mother tongue does not equal ethnicity, sorry to break it to you. My mother tongue is English, I am not English. Jean Alessi's mother tongue is French, he is not French. You all completely pass over the fact that the people of Trentino Alto Adige were essentially all Ladin speakers at one point, until the German language along with some ethnic Germans migrated and mixed into this area. There are people all over the province of Bolzano with dark hair and features, having surnames like Seppi, or Rainer, (two names I know go back for centuries in Bolzano) who speak the German language because it was under a German-speaking crown. duh! Of course these same families likely have mixed roots of German, maybe some people from Veneto, Friuli, whatever. The point is that the great thing about this region is this mixture, and all you seem intent on doing is making it trivial. I don't know how many times I have to explain this to the group who think this area was simply some ''purely'' German "ethnic" area that was invaded. I guess that makes it easier to process for some people's minds... @_@ ] (]) 09:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


:: You are mistaken: The multi-ethnic Austrian Empire explicitly asked the ethnicity of the people and not the language! 95,5% declared them to be ''German''! The statement is referenced - it is a publication by the city of Bolzano! also: there are just 326 people named Seppi in the entire province and 1512 Rainer, but than Rainer is a GERMAN name ] - so rightly there are lots of them in the province. --] (]) 09:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The English name of this city is Bolzano, and like ] and ] we should use the English name, not the Italian or German or German-Italian name.--] 08:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
:Bolzano is the Italian name, if anything. ] 12:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
::What's the evidence of this? ] 02:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
:::For example, ] and --] 07:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


::: So you like names - for you they prove the ethnicity of person; ''GOOD'' here is the list with the 120 most common names in the province of Bolzano 2004 - to make it easier for you I highlighted the 2 Italian and the 4 Ladin ones - and saved myself the work to highlight the ''114 German'' ones! --] (]) 10:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Hmmmm... OK, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I took the comment to which I was replying to imply that ''Bolzano'' was '''not''' the English name. I don't doubt that it '''is''' the Italian name, I don't really care either way. What I'm looking for is evidence as to whether or not people use this name ''when speaking English''. The links given are both to Italian language sites (pretty obviously in the case of Italian Misplaced Pages!), so they don't help with this.
::::I'm coming more and more to realise that there is no perfect answer to this one. IMO '''both''' names are probably acceptable, but we need to use one or the other. The problem is, to use either has political implications. This is a common problem with place names in multilingual areas. In that we're '''forced''' by our software and naming conventions to choose one name for the article, that choice shouldn't be seen as support by English Misplaced Pages for there even '''being''' a preferred name, let alone by implication for the territorial claims of an ethnic group.


:::* Noclador, I'm seriously concerned you are going to have a stroke. =) Please, relax, and when you do, we obviously can discuss this better. I don't say I'm right about everything, you might want to consider that it may be healthy for yourself to look at this with an open mind as well. By the way, there are quite a few Rainer in Trentino as well; do you want to notify them they are "ethnic" Germans? :) I've told you before, you continue to insist on making things ''black and white'', yet they are not, nor will ever be. If you don't want to accept that the region is not made up of some singular and pure ethnicity, that is up to you -- it doesn't matter to me really. I know people who speak Ladino dialects, yet when asked they identify them as dialects of Italian (Tuscan). Point being? Asking everyday people does not result in necessarily real results. Of course many people who spoke German at that time will call themselves "German", but what do you think happened to the original Ladin and Latin speakers of this region before Germanic people migrated down here a few centuries ago? They evaporated? My point is that the people of Trentino-Alto Adige ARE Germanic, but they are also Italic... and they are Ladino-dolomiten, and they are Roman, and they are Etruscan. How long as your family been in Trentino-Alto Adige Noclador? Are you blonde and blue eyes with a jaw like Michael Schumacher? Somehow, I'm willing to bet the answer is NO. Lastly, let me pose to you two questions: 1) Who in fact are the "Italians"? and 2) Why were the vast majority of towns in Alto Adige founded with Ladin/Italic names? ] (]) 04:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I wonder whether perhaps we need to add a section to this effect to the ]. ] 07:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


::::* "concerned you are going to have a stroke" Original Research - bring me a ECG, than this statement might be taken serious
::::One English source that uses the name Bolzano is (English, European map edition of) Microsoft Mappoint (and therefore, I expect Autoroute, etc). -- ] 20:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
::::* "a few centuries ago" wrong 14x centuries ago
::::* "Asking everyday people" you would prefer to ask just Tolomei then??
::::* "I know people who speak Ladino dialects, ..." Original Research - bring me a study, than this statement might be taken serious
::::* "Ladin and Latin speakers" wrong: original settlers unknown: -> Celts (450BC) '''Raetians''' -> Romans (15BC) '''Ladins''' -> Bajuwari (550AD) '''Tyroleans''' -> Italians (1919+ AD) '''South Tyroleans/ Alto Atesini''' ( -> = immigration / in bold = stable population)
::::* "but they are also Italic" following that logic the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Tunisians, Egyptians, Turkish, English, Lebanese are Italic too? ] ahoi!
::::* "like Michael Schumacher" I preferred when you called me pig!
::::* If you don't know, maybe it is time you read it up: ]
::::* "Why were the vast majority of towns in Alto Adige founded with Ladin/Italic names?" Wrong; correct: "Why ''are'' the vast majority of towns ''in the major valleys'' based on earlier Latin names?" For the same reason as i.e ] or ] or ] or ] or ] or ] or ] or ] or ] or ] or ] or ] or ] or ] or ] - all very Italian cities; with that line of argument the people of ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ] are ]?? and the people of ], ], ] are Greek? If that is so, than the people of ] are all Indians! You are following in the logic of Tolomei (Re-Italianization of Germanized names!). --] (]) 14:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


:::::* See, all you can really do is make accusations of Tolomei, Italianization, etc., etc. I don't know why you can't discuss this in a civilized manner. Instead, what my impression is, is that any hint of a non-pure German history in Bolzano-Bozen is very offensive to you, and that you lose control of yourself. As I mentioned before, you are making yourself do what Mussolini and Tolomei were interested in doing, but in just another direction. Do you honestly feel good about that? So, tell me this, since "Italians" are only in Bolzano-Bozen from 1919+, who are the people who are in Trentino? Are they Italians in your same definition? Do all Italians originate in Naples? Or do you realize that most of Trentino spoke Ladin dialects up until the establishment of Standard Italian as a ''national'' language? For example, Nones (Val di Non), Solardo (Val di Sol), on and on and on, are all Ladin languages. The languages of South East Switzerland (Romansch), of Trentino AND Alto Adige/South Tyrol (Ladin), and East over in Friuli (Furlan), are all a single family. They are the ''Sicilian'' (etc.. etc.) of this region, and pre-date both Italian (Tuscan) and German. So if you really want to play games, I say we get rid of the Italianization that happened and ''also'' the Germanization! ROFLOL. ps. so I take it ''not'' blonde/blue eyes.. I kinda figured. I'll tell you if you ask why, but it isn't a pleasant critique. :) ] (]) 20:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
If anything, from my understanding of ] and the proposed ], the article should be renamed '''Bolzano''' (as the single widely accepted English name in modern context)?


* Also, while the Germanic tribes started to come into the former Roman Republic many, many centuries past, if you look at the history of the village names in Alto Adige/South Tyrol, you may realize that many were ''Germanized'' only just a few centuries ago. ] is one, in 800-900AD it was the Ladin Caldar or Caldare, the German settlers called it Kaltern. ] is another, its local name was actually Enna or Egna -- it was subsequently ''Germanized'' as the "New Market" by the newly arrived Germanic settlers around the 14th century. Do I dislike this Germanization of the town's name? No, it is part of the history of this region -- IT IS ALL GOOD. It is still Egna in the local Romance languages though, no matter what you hope to do. Then ], which was in Ladin Appian or Apiano from 500AD; Eppan is a loaned word that was Germanized, much like the word Bozen or Botzen. ], is Meran/Maran in Ladin for centuries. It is borrowed and used in German, but it is '''not''' a German word. ] has been ''Terlan'' in Ladin for centuries. It is borrowed and used in German, but it is '''not''' a German word. If you want to complete your re-Germanization, you need to invent some new words for these, ok? That is again why I have always INSISTED that we respect all the names and history of this region. If it is easier for you to believe that the area is a "pure" German entity, and would like to wish all the other history away, good for you. But, all you do is become a Tolomei of this era, and appear now to be intent on re-Germanization and wiping out the roots of this wonderful region. So, you can come here again yelling and ranting, and making accusations of Italianization and Mussolini, it doesn't matter to me. My roots in this area are probably '''much''' further back than yours, and I am proud to have Roman and Austrian heritage. I will never try to trivialize this region by attempting to shove some aspects of the history out. What you appear unable to take, is any aspect that spoils your dream of Alto Adige/South Tyrol being PURE German. That is a pretty miserable need, and I do implore you to be more open minded. ] (]) 20:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:Please ], ] (). ] 14:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->


* and lastly Noclador, what did I ever do to you to deserve these vile attacks? Because I was fixing wikilinks from ] to ]? There was nothing at all wrong with the edits I made on those radio pages, I indeed fixed the links to point to the proper pages like the Austrian state of Tyrol. Or is it that I dare ask you to look a bit deeper into the history of this region, to realize it isn't so black-and-white? Hmm? I've never once asked for any German names to disappear or for only Italian (Tuscan) to be used... <u>never</u>. So, the impression I have for now is either 1) you are HYPER-sensitive, and go after someone fixing wikilinks assuming some dire conspiracy, or 2) you somehow have an inner need to yell to the World this area is purely German. Please, do prove me wrong. If you simply misunderstood my intentions because of the bridge page, that is fine, then chill the hell out. If you look back at those edits, I only wanted to cite things clearly, and as points were brought up I included them. That you kept adding old ''Austrian province of South Tyrol'', certainly raised eyebrows for myself and others. Think about that action. I'm certainly somebody that if I learn for sure ''Ponte Romano'' was but a 1927 invented label for the bridge, then it means nothing culturally to me. It is just a blip in the history. But then other statements you make like ''all the names were German'' pre 1919 again makes my eyebrows raise, because you in one sentence disregard the real history of this region -- and that to me is unacceptable. ] (]) 20:48, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
==Requested move ] to ] and other South Tyrolian municipalities to their Italian names (stopped)==


Currently the article names for South Tyrolian municipalities are bi- and trilingual, resulting in illegible prose like "S. Crestina - Gherdëina-St.Christina in Gröden-Santa Cristina Valgardena is a comune (municipality) in the South Tyrol in the Italian region Trentino-South Tyrol, located about 70 km northeast of Trento and about 30 km east of Bozen-Bolzano." I propose to move all municipalities to their Italian names, and create redirects from the German and Ladin names. See also the discussion under ]. ] 20:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


:: Let us make this very simple: South Tyrol: from 600AD to 1919AD over 85% ethnic German. Italians: 3%-5% of population. Claims of multicultural South Tyrol (exception: the 2x Ladin valleys and the area south of Bozen were some thousands Italians lived) before 1920ies = myth, fable, legend, fairy tale. But you can always bring a ] and reliable source that says otherwise. Also: whatever the roots of local names were, relevant is what the cultural circle of the people was/is: overwhelmingly Germanic (and that since the ''early'' middle ages). But of course I invite you to bring proof that it was otherwise. I’m not out to “shove some aspects of the history out” I’m about to shove the made-up history out – with all the references needed, not because I’m a German nationalist () but because your idea of the local history is distorted. No matter how often you repeat it: there is no historical basis for many of your claims. Over the next weeks I will edit all the history in, with all sources and references. Afterwards the articles will be much more detailed, neutral, broader in scope and most importantly accurate, referenced and sourced. Good - right? --] (]) 23:22, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
===Survey (stopped)===
*<s>'''Oppose''' This city is the capital of Alto Adige/Südtirol, which has both Italian and German as official languages. There is a large community of German speakers in Bolzano/Bozen, so I don't think that it's plausible to sever the name to remove the German form.</s>--]]] 00:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC) Changed my stance to '''neutral'''.--]]] 22:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' not a good idea what is being proposed here. ] 07:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' It's so obvious. 1)The English name is Bolzano 2)''"This city is the capital of Alto Adige/Südtirol, which has both Italian and German as official languages"'' I don't think so; anyway, ] has Italian as official language, why don't we call it "Roma"? 3)''"There are some Germans who live in Bolzano"'' so what? There are also some ] who live in Bolzano 4)Bolzano is the English name, and even if you don't agree, call this article "Bolzano-Bozen" or "Bozen-Bolzano" or "Bolzano-Bozen-Bulsan-Bocen-Boceno-Bolzan-Bauzanum-Bocenas-Bulsaun-Bolzanu-Buzzanu" is '''not''' a solution. Choose: ] '''or''' ].--] 09:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. Bozen-Bolzano is not the name of the city in any language, including English. South Tyrol does have two official languages, but that doesn't make its name Alto Adige-Südtirol. Or Freiburg-Fribourg, or Neuchâtel-Neuenburg, or Enghien-Edingen, or Leeuwarden-Ljouwert. ] 16:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:Indeed. I think that the title should rather be "Bolzano/Bozen", instead of with a hyphen. But I cannot support the German form to be removed.--]]] 16:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::I'm not proposing complete removal of Bozen, just from the article name. There are several contexts in which "Bozen" should be used, for instance pre-1918 history, births, deaths etc. And Bozen will be/stay in the first line of the article, as the German name. BTW the slash doesn't make it better in my opinion, nobody calls it Bozen/Bolzano either. ] 16:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::I'm a bit divided now. I checked many other bilingual cities and they seem to bear just one name in the title of their respective articles. I could just change my stance to neutral, but I'm also not very fond of the "(city)" addition, considering that Bolzano/Bozen as city is likely the most common search. BTW, the slash doesn't mean that when referring to the name, both words are to be pronounced (that would happen with the hiphen). The slash just means that two forms exist and you may choose the one you prefer when referring to the city.--]]] 17:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Slashes are used in wikipedia to create hierarchy, better not use them in article titles. ] 21:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Good point. Oh well, I'll just change my stance to neutral.--]]] 22:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. The offical tourist board's opinions: ( but of course). The website name and logo both use the double-barreled "Bolzano-Bozen". One or two points to Bolzano here. Accompany this with the choices of web world-mappers at MSN Windows Live Local, Multimap, and Google Maps, which all use Bolzano, I think that's enough to say that the best-used name in English is Bolzano. ] 17:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. ] seems to be the town name in English. I have no opinion on other municipalities name. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 20:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' but would prefer ], moving the dab to ]
::Actually, I would like that better as well. I had never heard of the mathematician, and he's disambiguated by his first name anyway. ] 21:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


::: First of all, you had better never imply that I have purposely added any made-up history. I'll assume for now you were not trying to do so. :) So, wait, you think it is a myth and fairly tale that there were pre-Germanic people living in villages which have Ladin names that predate by a millennia the mass migration of Germanic people into this region? Wow! :) That is indeed a pretty quick shoveling out of what are irrefutable facts. Who named and founded the villages, garden gnomes? I was afraid you would do this as well, but you completely ignored many of the valid points I made about the greater extent of the Ladin language, the origins of the people just a few thousand meters away in Trentino, Switzerland, etc. I don't have any disagreement that in the middle ages that the area, especially in the northern reaches, had significant Germanic migration (some who are relatives of me!). What I do disagree with you is your dream that the Ladin speakers were always in just a couple pockets of Alto Adige/South Tyrol. Many of the people who spoke Ladin, were with time, mixed into the dominant language communities (and that goes on even now); the people did not evaporate; you can see the shared features in Trentino-Alto Adige to this very day (and you know as well as I do that the region is not full of blonde people). So sorry, many of the people are not "pure" ethnic Germans, and yes, the region has always always been multicultural. But, is that so bad?? How do you think the interesting culture exists! Also, hopefully it won't happen, but say the Romansch speaking people of Switzerland all someday speak either French, German, or Italian, is that their new ethnicity?? Hmm?? By the way, did you ever realize that the term Welsh in German did not originate in this area to describe modern Italian citizens? In the original context, it referred to the Italic people of this region and just a few centuries ago it was applied to describe Ladin speakers. So the German speakers in the middle ages, up until the 20th century, referred to Ladin speakers as ''Welsh''. Did you ever try and put 2 and 2 together when looking at the history of a town like ]? That town, pre-middle ages, was ''Nova'' in Ladin, so where do you think the German '''Welsch'''nofen might come from? Is that rocket science? Of course in this day and age the city is primarily German speaking. Again, does that specify ethnicity? No. Someone told me that the people in Val Gardena start to speak more German than Ladin. Makes sense, since German is a major commercial language. Are they morphing into "pure" ethnic Germans? No. Again with Welschnofen, would you prefer to believe that is was simply founded by a band of "pure" Germans, and they called it Welschnofen because when they were migrating they had actually dreamt of making it all the way down to Capri? :P Give me a break Noclador. It is difficult for me to fully believe you are not biased towards a hyper-Germanic view when it seems I can upset you by pointing out that Terlan and Meran are not German names, and that even Bozen and Botzen are Germanized words of the names used by the original inhabitants. Why is that so hard to deal with? It is our SHARED history and culture. The Germans NOR the Ladins grew out of the soil, we all migrated here one way or another. Look, speck is brought to us by German thinking mixed with Italic. I'd never try to claim it one way or the other, I LOVE the fact that is not one or the other. Anyway, you'd make a good step if you realized I'm not trying to refute you really, I'm trying to make you realize things are richer than they are. If I point out to you that Meran is not a German word, and comes from the Ladin people here originally, this does not mean anyone wants to de-Germanize or throw anyone out. Got it?? @_@ ] (]) 01:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
''Please wait before adding more support/Oppose, because of the discussion about changing the question (see below and contribute there).'' Thanks :-) ] 06:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
:::: No reply Noclador? =) I'm sure you haven't given up yet on the "pure German" view and Italian history only from the last century... ] (]) 00:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
It is not worth my time to keep track of your snide attacks and biased statements, which are way too often incredibly full of factual errors. I have better things to do; like expand the articles about South Tyrol - with historical facts, sources, references,... isn't that great! Soon we will be able to put POVs, original research, myths and factual errors all to rest. --] (]) 01:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
:Yes, that is very mature of you Noclador. I've tried multiple times to get you and your man Gun Powder Ma to discuss things calmly, instead you guys would rather continue to play the angry internet warrior. Instead of addressing the points I make in a civilized debate, you run away with your tail between your legs calling them biased statements and snide attacks. You think I didn't expect that you would once again completely avoid the issues, given how you've repeatedly dodged any facts that spoil your "pure" German POV? Show me my biased statements, why don't you? Show me the "incredible factual errors", <u>if you can</u>. You have proven my point again and again that you are fearful of anything that shows the Province of Bolzano to not be purely German. That said, I must say you being from Merano provides a certain grand satisfaction with regard to the irony that this name is not, nor ever will be of German origin. Every time you say Meran, you will in fact be saying a Ladin word, a word of a people you would like to dream never existed in this area. In the end you are simply doing EXACTLY the same thing you accuse the fascists and Tolomei of doing a century ago; so I hope you do enjoy your company. Maybe one day you will realize this, and if you don't, who cares... ] (]) 07:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: Nice to see that as time passes on, things with Icsunonove never change. ] (]) 01:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


:::::: Hey ], long time no see! :) How is Texas? Is this some sock puppet, or did you forget to log in? :) Yeah, I will forever be someone with an open mind and not tied to a black-and-white attitude. That will never change. :) ] (]) 05:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
===Approval (not open yet)===
''Please vote for all you find acceptable; tactical voting to produce consensus is encouraged. ''
*'''Bozen-Bolzano''' (no change)
*#
*'''Bolzano-Bozen'''
*#
*'''Bozen'''
*#distant third, but better than the double-barrelled.
*'''Bolzano (city)''' per ]
*#Second choice ] 21:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Bolzano'''
*#First choice ] 21:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


The article says " With the end of the Roman empire a Bavarian immigration began and the first mentioning of a Bavarian count as ruler of Bozen dates from 679. The area has been settled by German populations since than." I don't know how much clearer it has to be that this is a Germanic city. The article says the city was settled by German populations since the year 679. The article also says "At the time of its annexation {after WW I}, Bozen was an ethnic German city, with a pre-war population of 30,000 people, 95.52% of whom were German native speakers." Also, Bozen was part of the German speaking country of Austria for how long? Over a millenia? Also, the reason Misplaced Pages refers to the city as Bolzano is not because Bolzano is the English name of the city. All English language encyclopedia's will refer to Bolzano and all other cities that were formerly German by the name the country they are now part of calls them. This goes for hundreds of cities taken from Germany and Austria since the end of WW I (Pilsen now PLZEN - Czech, Bozen now Bolzano - Italian, Danzig now Gdansk - Poland, Breslau now Wroclaw - Poland). Your attempts to deny the German history of this city are disgusting. Unfortunately, when it comes to anything German wikipedia will always be opposed to the German (and Austrian) point of view. Also, English is a Germanic language - derived from German. So, the the word Bolzano is used for the reason I explained above.
===Discussion===
'''STOP '''


In addition, Italy is a beautiful country, but its not an accident that Bolzano or (Bozen) has the second highest standard of living in Italy. When the worlds best cities (ranked by standard of living) are published in magazines, there are typically 3 to 5 German speaking cities ranked in the top ten cities in the world (Zurich, Vienna, Munich). No other country has more than one city ranked in the top ten: The USA, the UK, France and Italy each don't have any cities that rank in the top ten.
:Sorry if I interrupt, but this is wrong!
:You propose
:::''"I propose to move all municipalities to their Italian names, and create redirects from the German and Ladin names." ''
:This has to go on a separate page, not on the Bozen-Bolzano page. It is a '''South Tyrolean issue''', so put it there, not here.
:Don mix up things, thanks ;-) ] 17:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:PS: I fully support to find a solution '''for all South Tyrolen pages'''. Please stop doing single moves, this does not help us.


You are biased, just as most of the wikipedia editors are. There is no question about it. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:44, 18 March 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:PPS: Someone proposed to move this to somewhere else. This is also not working, because you can not move a move-request. You have to reformulate and the discussion has also to be re-discussed, so simple move does not work. This ist just simply wrong.


== English page: BOLZANO ==
::It is on a separate page, being ]. Since the name discussion (re)started here about Bolzano, I thought it best to have the move discussion about all South Tyrolean municipalities here.] 17:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


After spending some time revising historic inaccuracies that were published without citing reliable sources and feeding mostly on common Italian historic rendition, I also realize that the article is a rough, approximate, and poor translation from Italian. Italian expressions are translated verbatim and as a result the English page reads awkward and unconvincing. Although I`ve edited several paragraphs that had been written and published with numerous English language issues, I believe that the article still needs major revisions, both with regard to contents and to English terminology and grammar.
:::Sorry, but the title clearly says "Requested move ] to ]". This does not sound to me as an opinion on this could have an influence on all the other pages. The title would have to be '''"moving double names to single names"''' and then you would have to list the possibilities like
:::* moving to Bozen
:::* moving to Bolzano
:::Why should there be only one option?
:::You started it a little bit the wrong way. Maybe if you rethink about what you/we want to achieve we find a way all can agree on how to preceed. But for now I would strongly recommend to stop this kind of opinion poll before you don't have a good question people can give their opinion on. ] 21:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


:Hello, I've reverted your edits as, unfortunately, they contained errors and were undiscussed. You talked about a war between Austria and Italy in 2015. No doubt a typo, but indicative of the changes. More seriously, you changed some statements that came from sources, which is not allowed. I agree with you about the need to improve the article, but please do so through careful editing and by discussing with other editors. ] (]) 15:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)+
:Isn't it perfectly clear? My proposal is to move all municipalities to their Italian names. Since ] is taken by a disambiguation page (there's a mathematician Bolzano), that's an exception. If it makes you feel better, I'll change the title. BTW this proposal is the result of a discussion I had some days ago (see below). That's why I didn't include other options, such as everything German, or everything to the name in the majority language of the municipality. ] 21:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::There is still some room for discussion, see above. This is essentially, however, a simple question: double name or single name? The approval poll will be a bit of a problem for the closing admin, but not too big a one. I doubt the wisdom of a !vote on all South Tyrolean names; there may be different arguments for Bolzano and for some barely notable hamlet on the side of an Alp; but I would bear this in mind when voting on the hamlet's article. ] 21:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::The article should be moved to whatever its most common denomination in English is (lest we forget, this is English Misplaced Pages). The page move request should not be about moving everything to its Italian name by default. I cannot ''vote'' for this as it stands after the title change. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 21:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::::I agree; but I also think ] is far more common than ]. Let's start with google:
::::*Bolzano (without the mathematician or Bozen) gets English hits.
::::*Bozen without Bolzano gets
::::*Bozen and Bolzano get .
::::Depending on how you count, that's either four or eight to one. ] 21:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
==== Don't use simple answers to complicated questions ====
The problem is, that for some places in South Tyrol the german name is more common, for some the italian. How do we decide what name is used for what place?


SPECIFIC ISSUES IN THE CANCELLATION BY JEPPIZ:
In South Tyrol we have officially two languages. How do you want to decide which one is more important.


``No fighting took place in the County of Tyrol during the First World War.``
Simply saying "lets take italian" means: I come from a place where 0 Null zero no niente Italians are living. Its a german place. No one uses the invented italian name. It did not exist until an italian came and tried to impose it without success. And now WIkipedia comes and imposes the italian name on all german speaking people in that place?
Jeppiz claims that this statement is supported by the cited source. That is impossible. He failed to evaluate the source and double check whether the statement respects the source. The Tyrolean front line was over 400 Km long and there were thousands of casualties in battles fought all along the Tyrolean borders, with tens of war cemeteries built to bury the dead. You can easily find evidence of the absurdity of the statement


``Nevertheless, those Germans who opted to stay in South Tyrol ....` Jeppiz wrongly reverted to this version. Inhabitants of South Tyrol are not Germans, although they speak German. Jeppiz reverted to a clearly inaccurate version without investigating my changes.
Think about what power Misplaced Pages has, and what you are doing to the minorities with simple answers to complicated questions. ] 22:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


ENTIRE PARAGRAPH ``In the 1920s, along with the rest of South Tyrol, Bolzano was subjected to an intensive ].........`` Jeppiz erased all my changes, for no reason. I had edited the paragraph to improve readability, grammar and English language issues, accuracy (the previous paragraph spoke of `those Germans` whereas historically South Tyroleans were not Germans, although they spoke German. The paragraph was poorly written and I made changes to improve that.
:I think we have agreed this discussion is *only* about Bolzano. As for the rest, whatever its most common name in English is should be chosen. Regards, ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 22:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


`` After 1943, heavy fighting against Nazi Germany and the Axis Powers took place in the ] Alps once the Allied Powers had liberated Italy.`` Jeppiz mistakenly reverted to this version. He made two mistakes: First, there is no such thing as the Dolomite Alps. They are called DOLOMITES, or, likely acceptable in English, Dolomitic Alps. Second, the statement is virtually impossible. The Allied troops could not have fought in the Dolomites after Italy had been liberated, because the Dolomites are in Italy and therefore the statement is nonsensical. My reinstated version ameliorated both points.
::This is a too simple answer. You can not change one South Tyrolean name (the main city!) without influencing the rest. It's a wrong milestone. We need a Solution for all names of South Tyrol. ''"As for the rest, whatever its most common name in English "'' is the wrong answer. You mean, we have 2000 discussions like this in 2000 pages??!! That is not a solution. Or do you really mean that?! ] 06:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


`` independence movements gradually gained popularity among the Germanic population in Bolzano and South Tyrol.` Jeppiz cl,early has no knowledge of local history and erased my ALL comments based on dubious reasons. In this case, I had improved the narrative by erasing the word `gradually` since the local population had overwhelmingly sought re-unification with Austria. My other changes, erased by Jeppiz, were meant to improve readability, since the pre-existing paragraph was poorly written. Jeppiz deemed my changes to be worth of his ax.
:Fantasy, you're reasoning in terms of the place where you live, not from a neutral point of view. It is equally obvious that in a place in Italy where no one speaks German everyone will refer to the city as Bolzano and not Bozen.
:Again, choosing a language on the other is NOT a matter of offending a people instead of another one. I personally think only very stupid people will offend themselves just because on an encyclopedia - which tends to be ''general'' - of another language it is preferred the name of a language instead of the other one. There is simply no political meaning behind that, whereas the title "Bozen-Bolzano" displays it a more clear preponderance of a group to another one.
:To me - and to all reasoning people, I think - makes absolutely NO difference if the language chosen for ALL cities in South Tyrol is German or Italian ('cause the proposal of Markussep was just the start of this global convertion process). The reasons why Italian should be a better choice are widely explained in a previous topic.
:I sincerely think that when the page will be moved to an only language, indifferently whether it would be German or Italian, all those questions of "offending" a part of the population will be quite completely forgotten.


``In 1996, the European Union approved of further integration of the Austrian state of ] with the Germanic province of South Tyrol and ] (''Welschtirol'') in Italy.`` Jeppiz incorrectly reverted to this version which shows two inaccuracies: 1) Tyrol is not an Austrian state; it`s an Austrian province (Land and not Staat). 2)South Tyrol is not a Germanic province. In 1996 it was an Italian bilingual autonomous province. My correction was accurate and needed no axing. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:37, 11 September 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Finally, you will see that you're the only one that's turning that problem to a gigantic size, by opening several threads trying to complicate something that is really simple when viewed from a logical side. Here there should be no space for nationalisms, from both sides. Making a final report on what we've found since now:
:* double and triple names should be removed, since:
:** 1. they show a priority of a language to another;
:** 2. they create ridiculously long pagenames, which on an encyclopedia - an organized system of notions that tends to be strict and direct - should be avoided at first.
:* the name should be chosen based on naming conventions, which consider the English-speaking community and the overall-speaking community.
:* answering to Gryffindor arguments, the English name is not necessarily a translated one, since in every language there are a lot of words taken from other languages which have become also part of the new language (for example, in Italian there is no other word for "computer", so "computer" has become an official Italian word). The language is born not by scientifically analizing the terms, but by ''common use and acceptance'' of certain words.
:* therefore the choice for the English wikipedia should be done based on popularity of the name. Google is a good statistical instrument for that sake. By looking at google.com you may see that quite all little cities in South Tyrol have equal pagecounts, with little prevalence of a language on another (for example, Meran has more pages than Merano, Brunico more than Bruneck, Vipiteno more than Sterzing, Brixen more than Bressanone etc). But for all towns where Italian-speaking people are more than German-speaking one the pagecounts are enormously unbalanced on Italian side - Bolzano has 3 times the pagecounts of Bozen, Laives 2.5 times the ones of Leifers, Bronzolo 2 times the ones of Branzoll, Salorno 1.5 times the ones of Salurn.
:* since there is such a great unbalance on names, based on the obvious reason that ''Italian'' names of ''Italian'' cities are more widely spread among the ''entire'' speaking community, therefore the Italian names should be preferred '''for ALL South Tyrolean cities'''.
:We're not considering local disputes, which are left to people who cannot see further than their own nose. From the possibly widest point of view, South Tyrol is still part of Italy, and since this is not a South Tyrolean wikipedia but an English one - I'd rather say international - we should forget that double language problem.
:If you find reasons for German names to be chosen instead of Italian, well, you may explain it here and discuss with the others. But the reiteration of things you continue to say from months without reading what the others write is not discussion. I think that people from Germany or from other parts of Italy don't even care of those double names, which are a problem taken out by German-speaking Southtyroleans first and Italian-speaking Southtyroleans second. Septentrionalis and Markussep easily agreed for the remotion of double names and the choice of an only language (which I previously supposed should be Italian); I think they are no Southtyroleans at all, and then may gain a much more neutral point of view rather than people who lives or lived in South Tyrol like me and you. Should we continue forever by complicating these stupid (sorry for the aggressive term) problems?
:--] 15:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


I don`t know who you are, but evidently you play god with someone else`s work. The fact that you erased all my changes and reverted back to the original ``No fighting took place in the County of Tyrol during the First World War.`` proves your inadequacy as whatever your role is. There were thousands of casualties in battles fought all along the Tyrolean borders, with tens of war cemeteries built to bury the dead. You can easily find evidence of the absurdity of the statement that you re-installed by virtue of a power position, instead of using your knowledge of the themes discussed in the article. Before you intervene to defend a mediocre wiki page in need of thorough revisions, you should assess the validity of its contents, not just publish something just because ONE very questionable source is cited. How about evaluating the source? Did you do that? I can assure you that a source stating that no fighting happened in Tyrol is bogus, the same as saying that no fighting happened in Normandy during WWII. The Tyrolean front line was over 400 Km long, but that of course doesn`t count, because you decided that the `source` of the citation is valid. That would not get you a C on a freshman`s history essay. Furthermore, your comments are offensive and unsubstantiated, when, aside from blaming me for a typo that you could have fixed without much fuss, you imply that I made errors. Which ones? You didn`t elaborate; you just used your censorial ax and reverted EVERYTHING to a version filled with inaccuracies and language mistakes while, by your own admission, you ``agree... about the need to improve the article.`` If you recognize that need, since you play the expert`s role, why didn`t you say where and how the article should be improved? Your kind of editorial work must be very fulfilling - for you, but serves no purpose in terms of accuracy and readability. Misplaced Pages is a project written by informed people with a good attitude and openness towards learning. Where do you stand on that? Whatever your answer, it won`t matter to me, because I don`t subscribe to communication built on prevarication, which apparently you enjoy. I won`t engage. Good luck.
==== This request violets ], the first rule Misplaced Pages is based on! ====


:Thank you for your comment, but I encourage you to comment on content, not on other editors. Please read ]. Misplaced Pages is not about being right, it's about accurately representing reliable sources. Apart from the personal attacks on me, your reply largely consists of arguments that you're right and the sources wrong, therefore you can change what the sources say. That is absolutely forbidden, and a form of vandalism. If a source is wrong, and can be proven to be wrong '''by using better sources''', then we can always remove a source. However, changing the text while keeping the same sources is to misrepresent them, and that is definitely not allowed. Once again, I encourage you to engage constructively and impassionately by discussing with other users. As a general rule, if somebody undoes your changes, you should ''first'' discuss and reach a ] ''before'' reinstating the changes (]). Last but not least, you don't have the option not to engage with other users on Misplaced Pages. It's a collective project, and nobody is above discussing with others. ] (]) 21:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Just to remind everyone, the ] states:
:'''"all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, that is, they must represent all significant views fairly and without bias."'''
This is not an option, it is a '''must'''.


I have no idea who Jeppis is, but he has no standing to preach a sermon. I said that I was not going to engage WITH JEPPIZ because he is not discussing anything. He is simply imposing his censorship without any knowledge of the content he is censoring and without addressing my comments and changes on their merit. Therefore I am not engaging with Jeppiz. He is acting out of a position of self-avowed power behind the pretentious claim that he is following Wiki guidelines. I have explained in details why Jeppiz` censorial cuts were wrong, mainly because Jeppiz didn`t act constructively - like he implies, failing to verify whether the many inconsistencies in the articles were actually supported by the sources that he is so adamantly defending. Jeppiz failed to act responsibly as an editor and didn`t consider the merit of my comments. Had he done that, he would have found out that THE CITED SOURCES DID NOT SUPPORT THE STATEMENTS I critiqued in my comments. Before accusing others of vandalism, jeppiz needs to develop the necessary self-analitic skills to ensure that he will no longer overstep his role by censoring someone else`s work without any knowledge of the subject, which jeppiz clearly lacks. Again, I am writing this for other users, as I find it of little value to engage with someone who is not even reading my full changes and comments and is unable to address them in a professional manner. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:17, 12 September 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
South Tyroleans had to endure torture and death to get german and italian officially as equal languages.


My opinion: The newly written version seems to me clearly better and removes factual inaccuracies. For example, the statement that ''no fighting took place in the County of Tyrol'' is (excuse my French) plain bollocks... --] (]) 08:18, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
The City of Bolzano-Bozen has two official names. The only neutral way of naming it is by both names.
* move to Bolzano -> you offend the german speaking people
* move to Bozen -> you offend the italian speaking people
Misplaced Pages hast to be Neutral, it should never be used for political interrests. And Misplaced Pages does not really have a problem with names of an article being Bolzano-Bozen, this problem is irrelevant compared to the political issue.


: the right name si Bolzano!.] (]) 15:06, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
''If you care about the fundaments Misplaced Pages is based on, don't let people use Misplaced Pages for their political interests, Neutrality is everything.'' ] 06:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


== Current day language statistics ==
PS: And, in the end, '''you lie to Wikipedai-readers''' if you make them believe that it has one name only. Misplaced Pages should not be used to disseminate lies, the world is already full of it, dont fill WIkipedia as well.


I came across very different statistics on another wiki page. I decided to check out the references and it seems that the person that put in the statistics in this article must have inadvertently switched German and Italian as both given sources show German as the majority language. ("New") numbers taken from the same sources as given earlier. ] (]) 09:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
:That is not the point. ]'s official name in Spanish is ''Sevilla''. Nonetheless, its name in English is still Seville. It is not about sensibilities in that sense. In the same way, in English we say Geneva and not Genève-Genf-Ginevra-Ginebra. The NPOV policy applies to the content of the article. You cannot make a title NPOV, you have to choose whatever its English denomination is (and Bozen-Bolzano or viceversa does not seem to be). Best regards, ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 06:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
:Can you post a link to '''any''' reliable source that says German is the majority language in the city of Bolzano? Please note we're taking about the city of Bolzano here, not the province of the same name. ] (]) 13:34, 23 August 2016 (UTC)


== External links modified I ==
::''"you have to choose whatever its English denomination is "'' Who sais that? That is your opinion. NPOV is not an opinion and applies to the whole article. The name is part of the content/message. ] 06:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Please familiarise yourself with Misplaced Pages policies. ]. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 06:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,


I have just modified {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
::::I know that page, it states:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071225072425/http://www.truppealpine.eu:80/composizione/unita_supporto_base.htm to http://www.truppealpine.eu/composizione/unita_supporto_base.htm
:::::''"Please note these conventions for naming settlements are '' '''merely guidelines, not rules written in stone''' ''... The primary goal of this naming convention is to achieve '' '''consistency within each country''' ''. It does not necessarily achieve complete consistency across countries. Hence the remainder of the page is divided into specific guidelines for individual countries where required."''
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110821012516/http://www.provinz.bz.it/en/downloads/South-Tyrol-Autonomy.pdf to http://www.provinz.bz.it/en/downloads/South-Tyrol-Autonomy.pdf
::::There is no entry for South Tyrol. That is what I am saying all the time. '''We need a guideline for South Tyrol''', not moving pages around. Requests for move do not help us in any way.
*Added {{tlx|dead link}} tag to http://www.a22.it/interne/a22_stretch_interna.ashx?id=162&l=2
::::If you are interrested in Working together with others in Misplaced Pages, then help establishing a South Tyrolean Guideline, not boykotting it by doing here a move, there a move, irritating everyone. ] 07:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
::::PS: I am offline until next week, due to a congress (]), sorry.
I think it is ludicruous to try to force a single name "in English". There is an Italian version and there is a German version, both of which are official and equal. So both versions are correct. Obviously a solution has to be found that can satisfy both sides, instead of forcing one version on the other. Because if you change one city, what about the other ones, it would be a complete mess? ] 07:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
:Funny, because you yourself have pushed for a single name in English for the Province of Bolzano (i.e. your South Tyrol). I've never witnessed such hypocritical behavior...


When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).
:I see I opened Pandora's box here. It's not my intention to suppress minorities or something like that. I hope that most users understand that the present double or triple names are unworkable and unencyclopedic. Equal official status of two names doesn't mean that both names must be used all the time. I don't really care which name is chosen, but a choice must be made! The idea of making a guideline for it is fine with me. ] 08:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
::And I think the current way is a good equilibrium. It has both the Italian and the German version in it, why try to force a version that many of the local inhabitants would see as "colonial" and "fascist"? I am not from that area, but I am very much aware of the sensitivities surrounding this issue and I think we need to thread very carefully here. ] 09:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}
==Proposals==
Please, Markussep, could you just change the title of the requested move ("Requested move Bozen-Bolzano to Bolzano (city) and other South Tyrolian municipalities to their Italian names" ==> "Requested move Bozen-Bolzano to Bolzano (city)") so we can continue the survey? --] 11:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 16:20, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
:I don't want to start this circus for all 116 municipalities in South Tyrol separately, because that's an incredible waste of time for everyone. I'm going to make a better proposal soon. ] 12:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
::Why not do two or three test cases and then make a mass proposal, citing them as evidence of consensus?


== External links modified II ==
::I agree firmly with moving to single names in all cases, but English may not be consistent in ''which'' single name. ] itself is an example, and google confirms my intuition that is slightly more common than . ] 15:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
:::I actually anticipated you and did that . I tested Google on a certain number of important citynames in South Tyrol, and as a result there is a sort of balance (NOT preponderance) on cities where German is the main language; instead, in cities where Italian is the main language there is a big prevalence for the Italian name.
:::The reason might be that the biggest part of the province, where German-speakers are the most, consists in places which are quite rural and detached, so they don't spread the German names in many places outside their homes. That obviously make the Italian names more proper for the task.
:::Also I add that, since South Tyrol is an Italian province, even the places for tourists have to learn a little Italian; where most of Italian Southtyroleans, knowing they're in Italy, don't actually have the need to learn German for their living.
:::These things are something normal for the local people; German Southtyroleans don't feel themselves "German", they feel "Southtyrolean". Italian Southtyroleans feel themselves Italian and Southtyrolean.
:::--] 16:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Also, Bressanone was probably more notable in the eighteenth century, when it was the capital of a sovereign bishopric, than it is now; and anglophones called it Brixen then. The usage survives. ] 17:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
:You'll probably find different results if you only search in English books or scientific articles. I think it's safe to say that except for Bolzano, Meran and maybe Brixen there are few places in South Tyrol that are frequently mentioned in English language publications. You're right BTW, my only connection with South Tyrol is that I spent some days in Meran in '95 (nice town). IMO, there are three consistent ways to name all municipalities:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140116134021/http://www.stol.it/Artikel/Chronik-im-Ueberblick/Lokal/Dalai-Lama-erhielt-Suedtiroler-Minderheitenpreis to http://www.stol.it/Artikel/Chronik-im-Ueberblick/Lokal/Dalai-Lama-erhielt-Suedtiroler-Minderheitenpreis
A - all Italian (rationale: they're in Italy)
B - all German (rationale: German speaking majority in South Tyrol)
C - all in the language of the local majority (103 German, 5 Italian, 8 Ladin, see my 2001 census based list here: ])
Exceptions should be made for towns that have a single widely used name in English. Shall we put this up for a survey? ] 17:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
:Oops; I did search English only, and posted the wrong URL; I hope that's fixed now. I would prefer to make the exception: ''where a preference in English usage can be determined''; but that's still going to exclude most places. (The only case where English preference is obvious, outside the big towns, is ].) I think this would be a reasonable poll, however. ] 19:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
==New survey about move==


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
I have started a new survey at ], in which I hope to reach better article titles for all municipalities in South Tyrol. Please add your contribution there. ] 18:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 04:49, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
The result of the survey in a nutshell: if there's a commonly used name for the place in English, use that. Otherwise (given the fact that there are several official names for all municipalities in South Tyrol) use the name in the majority language spoken in that municipality. ] 09:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


== German vs Austrian vs Germanophone ==


Reading this page left me with a lot of questions of what is meant by "German". Does it refer to as simply being a native speaker of German (Germanophone)? Does it imply cultural affinity with northern German states, and not Austria? Does it imply a cultural geographic continuum between Austria? I think every usage of "German' referring to a person should be replaced with either Germanophone or Austrian or at least be clarified. ] (]) 22:05, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
==Requested move==
] → ] – See also the survey at ]. The Italian name "Bolzano" was chosen, but ] is currently a disambiguation page, which could/should move to ]. ] 09:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC) ] 09:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
===Survey===
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>
*'''Oppose''': double names are used in South Tyrol.--] 11:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as nominator. ] 14:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' "Europe - In absence of a common English name, the current local name of the city should be used." (from ]); this applies to all Southtyrolean cities, which should be all Italian.--] 20:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' The city's official name is "Bozen-Bolzano", so where is the problem? ] 11:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
:I don't agree. The official name is Bolzano, rarely I see Bolzano Bozen, but never Bozen-Bolzano.--] 11:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
::The official name is not "Bozen-Bolzano", it's Bozen and/or Bolzano, dependent on the language used. ] 11:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Do we actually have clear references that say what is the official name? At least the street signs say Bolzano-Bozen. ] 23:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. As per agreement on ]. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' with reserve. I'd think Bolzano has more Italian inhabitants. Page should be Bolzano-Bozen however. --] 16:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I favour using Bolzano-Bozen (with the Italian name first), and doing the same for all towns in the ] (BZ) ] 23:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


== Questions and comments on the article ==
===Discussion===
Add any additional comments.


After reading this article I came up with some questions and comments.
It was decided at ] that article titles for places in South Tyrol should not be bilingual. Bolzano has a Italian speaking majority (73%), and the Italian name is one of the official names of the city. "Bolzano" is more used in English than "Bozen". Both these arguments imply that "Bolzano" is preferable.


1. "in Pauzana valle, quae lingua Teutisca Pozana nuncupatur".
The reason that ] is a disambiguation page, is the Czech mathematician ]. ] 14:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


I'm not well versed in Latin and I doubt many readers are as well. What's the translation?
: Would you be so kind to point out exactly where it was decided what, in ]? I can not find any consensus.--] 20:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


2. "In 1277 Bolzano was conquered by Meinhard II, the Count of Tyrol, leading to a struggle between the counts of Tyrol and the bishops of Trent."
::If by consensus you mean 100% agreement, there isn't any. However, there is a big enough majority (62% including your vote in favour of double names) against double names. See the talk page. ] 21:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


This sentence is weird. It talks about a conquest followed by a struggle. Can somebody rephrase it properly since the struggle typically comes before the conquest?
::: May be I am wrong, but proposal A is 7-1, proposal B is 6-2, proposal C is 7-4, and proposal D is 5-8 (votes for-votes against). I do not see how anyone can claim consensus on this.--] 23:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


3. I do not agree with the title "Capital of an autonomous province". The section primarily talks about the province so it should be changed to "Autonomous province" for consistency with the text.
==City website==
Currently there are two versions of the city website that are exactly the same page ( and ). Isn't it better to leave just the Italian version, since that page is already "bilingual" (see also ] (Italian-French), which has one version)?--] 20:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
:I've added both in that case to be fair to both sides. ] 11:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


4. "This table shows the mayors of the city of Bolzano after 1945". There is no table next to it.
==Province==


5. "Additionally, Reinhold Messner's experiences, collections and memories of the expeditions will be exhibited". It sounds like this may need to be updated.
The city Bolzano-Bozen is in IS the province of Bolzano (BZ). How can someone list the Province as South Tyrol. That is getting out of control with the German POV.


6. Bolzano Festival Bozen? Not a clever name for an event (it does not even say what it's about).
:Better check your data before you start edit wars. According to the , its Italian name is "Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano - Alto Adige, and its German name is "Autonome Provinz Bozen - Südtirol". "South Tyrol" seems to me a reasonable name for the province (I'm not German BTW). You should sign your posts, you can do that using <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. ] 19:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


7. "The Bolzano Christmas Market was founded in 1990 as Italy's first Christmas market" and "With over 1.2 million visitors (2005), the Bolzano Christmas Market is the most visited in Italy". I would like to see a source for both statements to prove the facts.
::I am not attempting to start any edit war, I'm pointing out what is the truth. Anyone in Italy will no that this province is the Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ). Just as the one below it is the Province of Trento (TN). The REGION that the Provinces of TN and BZ are in is Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. No offense, but it seems to you South Tyrol is a reasonable name for the province? This sounds kind of silly, when the name of the province is in fact based on the largest cities name. You have to realize that there is a long history on the WP of Austrisns (namely Gryffindor) that have pushed for a naming convention on WP that emphasize a German POV. We should at least be fair, considering Alto Adige/Sudtirol is a mixed Austrian/Italian region, and has been for centuries. ] 19:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


] (]) 19:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
==Page should be moved==


== Climate/winter climate ==
This page should be moved to Bolzano-Bozen. The city is in Italy, so the Italian name should come first. That, and that is the official name of the city, capturing both the Italian and German names for the city, since the Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ) is ethnically mixed. ] 20:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


Winters are really dry (below 30mm), isn’t it making Bolzano a Cwa climate? ] (]) 02:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
==Gryffindor==


:The wettest summer month should have at least 10x the precipitation of the driest winter month for Cw climate.
I don't mean to make a personal attack on this individual, but the method that he has systematically had Bolzano-Bozen renamed as Bozen-Bolzano. The Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ) now referred to as the Province of South Tyrol.. and the region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol referred to as Trentino-South Tyrol is quite creepy, to say the least. I read in the discussion above where Gryffindor writes, "I didn't know this project was called "Googlepedia" :-) Again, there are language sensitivities and it seems that this is the format that has been agreed upon. For the sake of harmony I would not push this issue further." Yes, of course he doesn't want to push it anymore, because it is now how he desires it (i.e. his own harmony). This process has been of the most scary I've seen on the WP and actually is foremost the type of "work" that discredits this project. ] 20:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
:Some cities like Bolzano, Wuhan or ] look like Cwa climates but mathematically fail.
:If Bolzano had over 180 or 200 mm of precipitation in one summer month then it could be Cwa. But it doesn’t.] (]) 18:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
::Brisbane fails the criteria as well. For Cw unlike Cs climates we have no 30 mm boundary.] (]) 21:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
::Good to know. Thank you ] (]) 13:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

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Move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was withdrawn. JPG-GR (talk) 05:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

According to the traffic stats here and here, the article for the city (Bolzano) receives about twice as much traffic as the article for the person (Bernard Bolzano) which is certainly more, but not (I think) so overwhelmingly more that the city qualifies as a primary usage for the name "Bolzano" (and the various disputes above in the archive over the proper name for the city simply underscores this fact.)

I propose that the article on the city be moved to Bolzano (city) and that Bolzano be made a redirect to Bolzano (disambiguation) (or the disambiguation page moved here.) --Sapphic (talk) 21:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Strongly oppose That's what headers are for; this one required expansion. If there are two principal articles likely to be searched for as Bolzano, we don't make everybody click twice, when we can let half of them get where they want to go immediately. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose - the redirect header is sufficient. The Italian name for the city is the primary usage in English (especially since the "Pass" is always used in that way). People looking for the person will find him without problem the was it is, whilst the city will get lost in a plethora of related usages. --Stomme (talk) 23:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Incredibly, super-strongly support with extra powerful support that beats all other kinds of opposition, in virtue of its strongness Disambiguation pages are meant to organize topics, not cut down on the number of clicks. As for primary usage, this passage from WP:D is relevant:
Primary topic
When there is a well known primary meaning for a term or phrase, much more used than any other (this may be indicated by a majority of links in existing articles or by consensus of the editors of those articles that it will be significantly more commonly searched for and read than other meanings), then that topic may be used for the title of the main article, with a disambiguation link at the top. If there's a disambiguation page, it should link back to the primary topic.
If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".
As for which usage is primary in English, I'd say that's far from decided. The article on the city receives about twice the traffic as the article on the person, and has about four times the number of incoming links — but a search on google or yahoo (ignoring Misplaced Pages page results) turns up results for the person before the city. So Misplaced Pages seems to favor the city, but the web as a whole favors the person as the primary usage for the name. Since "Bolzano" isn't even agreed upon as the proper name in English (see the various past arguments in the talk archive) I don't see how it is at all a settled matter. (BTW, putting "strongly" in front of support/opposition is silly.) --Sapphic (talk) 00:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Given the obvious lack of consensus for a move, and given a few more days to think about the issue and to try to think how the rest of you could be so obviously wrong yet think you're right, I've decided that you are, in fact, right. The way I think about it now that makes sense to me is that Bolzano should only be at most a redirect to Bernard Bolzano, and would never be the canonical name for the article on the person. However, Bolzano is currently the canonical name for the article on the city. So, given a conflict, the article on the city gets priority, and a hat note (already added by User:PMAnderson, thank you!). However — and here is where I think I perhaps still differ from the others in the discussion — if this were a case of redirect vs. redirect or canonical name vs. canonical name, I think we would be obliged to have Bolzano either be or redirect to the disambiguation page. This is an important point to consider, if the name of the article ever changes (again) and Bolzano is again turned into a redirect. Anyway, I thank everyone involved for helping to sort out this issue. --Sapphic (talk) 21:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
p.s. Is it appropriate at this time to delete the move template, or does that happen automatically after a certain number of days, or ... ?
It will happen when an admin closes the move request. (It would be perfectly OK to suggest to WP:RM that they consider closing it now.) As for Sapphic's point: It should still depend on frequency; but the frequencies here are comparable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment When I look for "bolzano", the first result is www.bolzano-bozen.it, and when looking for "bolzano city", its "Free University of Bozen-Bolzano". As I understand, the double naming was replaced by single name according to local language majority. Anyway, "bozen city" with 867.000 Google hits has more than twice as many as "bolzano city", so if the page is moved, it should be to Bozen or a double name. -- Matthead  Discuß   10:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Bolzano is the Italian name, Bozen is the German name, Bolzano is the English name; English wikipedia => English name.--Supparluca 11:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I actually get quite different results with Google using other search criteria (not that Google is the final arbitrator). I looked only at English pages, and removed Bernard and Bernardo from both searches to eliminate, in balance, any pages about the mathemetician. I also ignored Misplaced Pages, to keep our own pages from influencing the numbers: For "bolzano -bozen -bernard -bernardo -wikipedia" I get 298,000 pages, and for "bozen -bolzano -bernard -bernardo -wikipedia" I get 118,000 pages. That's a bit over twice as much for the Italian name, in English. And actually, all the previous search show is that the word "city" probably occurs on more German pages than Italian, since the search wasn't limited to English. A Google search as before, but only including English still favours Bolzano (although the person probably influences the numbers somewhat): 'Bolzano city' gives 452,000 and 'Bozen city' gives 98,000. While I am more than happy to call the city Bozen myself, for the English Misplaced Pages Bolzano is the proper name based on common usage and naming conventions. I also maintain my previous vote to oppose based on the fact that Bernard Bolzano already has a disambiguation in his name (Bernard) and changing the article to Bolzano (city) will just mean a lot of unnecessary piping and link maintenance (no links to the person should be referring to him by last name only if the MOS is followed). And I fear that this discussion will soon no longer be about separating the city from the person, but from separating the German and the Italian sides (again). --Stomme (talk) 08:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
(You get Matthead's results searching for "bolzano city" and "bozen city" without quotation marks)--Supparluca 09:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, my search is without quotation marks; I had used single quotes in my previous comment hoping to eliminate the ambiguity. The only restriction I used was the advanced search option to restrict the search to English language pages. It wouldn't make sense to use quotation marks in the search (those results are very small). --Stomme (talk) 09:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes you're right.--Supparluca 10:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ethnicity

Ok, I'm not going to get in another edit war. I'll just come on here to state that the sentence claiming Bolzano was an ethnic German city, because 95% spoke German, is bogus. Mother tongue does not equal ethnicity, sorry to break it to you. My mother tongue is English, I am not English. Jean Alessi's mother tongue is French, he is not French. You all completely pass over the fact that the people of Trentino Alto Adige were essentially all Ladin speakers at one point, until the German language along with some ethnic Germans migrated and mixed into this area. There are people all over the province of Bolzano with dark hair and features, having surnames like Seppi, or Rainer, (two names I know go back for centuries in Bolzano) who speak the German language because it was under a German-speaking crown. duh! Of course these same families likely have mixed roots of German, maybe some people from Veneto, Friuli, whatever. The point is that the great thing about this region is this mixture, and all you seem intent on doing is making it trivial. I don't know how many times I have to explain this to the group who think this area was simply some purely German "ethnic" area that was invaded. I guess that makes it easier to process for some people's minds... @_@ Icsunonove (talk) 09:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

You are mistaken: The multi-ethnic Austrian Empire explicitly asked the ethnicity of the people and not the language! 95,5% declared them to be German! The statement is referenced - it is a publication by the city of Bolzano! also: there are just 326 people named Seppi in the entire province and 1512 Rainer, but than Rainer is a GERMAN name Rainer - so rightly there are lots of them in the province. --noclador (talk) 09:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
So you like names - for you they prove the ethnicity of person; GOOD here is the list with the 120 most common names in the province of Bolzano 2004 - to make it easier for you I highlighted the 2 Italian and the 4 Ladin ones in Green and Blue: - and saved myself the work to highlight the 114 German ones! --noclador (talk) 10:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Noclador, I'm seriously concerned you are going to have a stroke. =) Please, relax, and when you do, we obviously can discuss this better. I don't say I'm right about everything, you might want to consider that it may be healthy for yourself to look at this with an open mind as well. By the way, there are quite a few Rainer in Trentino as well; do you want to notify them they are "ethnic" Germans? :) I've told you before, you continue to insist on making things black and white, yet they are not, nor will ever be. If you don't want to accept that the region is not made up of some singular and pure ethnicity, that is up to you -- it doesn't matter to me really. I know people who speak Ladino dialects, yet when asked they identify them as dialects of Italian (Tuscan). Point being? Asking everyday people does not result in necessarily real results. Of course many people who spoke German at that time will call themselves "German", but what do you think happened to the original Ladin and Latin speakers of this region before Germanic people migrated down here a few centuries ago? They evaporated? My point is that the people of Trentino-Alto Adige ARE Germanic, but they are also Italic... and they are Ladino-dolomiten, and they are Roman, and they are Etruscan. How long as your family been in Trentino-Alto Adige Noclador? Are you blonde and blue eyes with a jaw like Michael Schumacher? Somehow, I'm willing to bet the answer is NO. Lastly, let me pose to you two questions: 1) Who in fact are the "Italians"? and 2) Why were the vast majority of towns in Alto Adige founded with Ladin/Italic names? Icsunonove (talk) 04:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
  • "concerned you are going to have a stroke" Original Research - bring me a ECG, than this statement might be taken serious
  • "a few centuries ago" wrong 14x centuries ago
  • "Asking everyday people" you would prefer to ask just Tolomei then??
  • "I know people who speak Ladino dialects, ..." Original Research - bring me a study, than this statement might be taken serious
  • "Ladin and Latin speakers" wrong: original settlers unknown: -> Celts (450BC) Raetians -> Romans (15BC) Ladins -> Bajuwari (550AD) Tyroleans -> Italians (1919+ AD) South Tyroleans/ Alto Atesini ( -> = immigration / in bold = stable population)
  • "but they are also Italic" following that logic the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Tunisians, Egyptians, Turkish, English, Lebanese are Italic too? Mare Nostrum ahoi!
  • "like Michael Schumacher" I preferred when you called me pig!
  • If you don't know, maybe it is time you read it up: Italians
  • "Why were the vast majority of towns in Alto Adige founded with Ladin/Italic names?" Wrong; correct: "Why are the vast majority of towns in the major valleys based on earlier Latin names?" For the same reason as i.e Regensburg or Colchester or Córdoba or Manchester or Nevers or Lyon or Maastricht or Utrecht or Valencia or Dover or Antwerp or Liège or Sopron or Niš or Basel - all very Italian cities; with that line of argument the people of Cádiz, Algiers, Málaga, Genoa, Barcelona, Lisbon, Cagliari, Palermo are Phoenicians?? and the people of Feodosiya, Marseille, Syracuse are Greek? If that is so, than the people of Manhatten are all Indians! You are following in the logic of Tolomei (Re-Italianization of Germanized names!). --noclador (talk) 14:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
  • See, all you can really do is make accusations of Tolomei, Italianization, etc., etc. I don't know why you can't discuss this in a civilized manner. Instead, what my impression is, is that any hint of a non-pure German history in Bolzano-Bozen is very offensive to you, and that you lose control of yourself. As I mentioned before, you are making yourself do what Mussolini and Tolomei were interested in doing, but in just another direction. Do you honestly feel good about that? So, tell me this, since "Italians" are only in Bolzano-Bozen from 1919+, who are the people who are in Trentino? Are they Italians in your same definition? Do all Italians originate in Naples? Or do you realize that most of Trentino spoke Ladin dialects up until the establishment of Standard Italian as a national language? For example, Nones (Val di Non), Solardo (Val di Sol), on and on and on, are all Ladin languages. The languages of South East Switzerland (Romansch), of Trentino AND Alto Adige/South Tyrol (Ladin), and East over in Friuli (Furlan), are all a single family. They are the Sicilian (etc.. etc.) of this region, and pre-date both Italian (Tuscan) and German. So if you really want to play games, I say we get rid of the Italianization that happened and also the Germanization! ROFLOL. ps. so I take it not blonde/blue eyes.. I kinda figured. I'll tell you if you ask why, but it isn't a pleasant critique. :) Icsunonove (talk) 20:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Also, while the Germanic tribes started to come into the former Roman Republic many, many centuries past, if you look at the history of the village names in Alto Adige/South Tyrol, you may realize that many were Germanized only just a few centuries ago. Kaltern is one, in 800-900AD it was the Ladin Caldar or Caldare, the German settlers called it Kaltern. Neumarkt is another, its local name was actually Enna or Egna -- it was subsequently Germanized as the "New Market" by the newly arrived Germanic settlers around the 14th century. Do I dislike this Germanization of the town's name? No, it is part of the history of this region -- IT IS ALL GOOD. It is still Egna in the local Romance languages though, no matter what you hope to do. Then Eppan, which was in Ladin Appian or Apiano from 500AD; Eppan is a loaned word that was Germanized, much like the word Bozen or Botzen. Merano, is Meran/Maran in Ladin for centuries. It is borrowed and used in German, but it is not a German word. Terlan has been Terlan in Ladin for centuries. It is borrowed and used in German, but it is not a German word. If you want to complete your re-Germanization, you need to invent some new words for these, ok? That is again why I have always INSISTED that we respect all the names and history of this region. If it is easier for you to believe that the area is a "pure" German entity, and would like to wish all the other history away, good for you. But, all you do is become a Tolomei of this era, and appear now to be intent on re-Germanization and wiping out the roots of this wonderful region. So, you can come here again yelling and ranting, and making accusations of Italianization and Mussolini, it doesn't matter to me. My roots in this area are probably much further back than yours, and I am proud to have Roman and Austrian heritage. I will never try to trivialize this region by attempting to shove some aspects of the history out. What you appear unable to take, is any aspect that spoils your dream of Alto Adige/South Tyrol being PURE German. That is a pretty miserable need, and I do implore you to be more open minded. Icsunonove (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
  • and lastly Noclador, what did I ever do to you to deserve these vile attacks? Because I was fixing wikilinks from South Tyrol to Province of Bolzano-Bozen? There was nothing at all wrong with the edits I made on those radio pages, I indeed fixed the links to point to the proper pages like the Austrian state of Tyrol. Or is it that I dare ask you to look a bit deeper into the history of this region, to realize it isn't so black-and-white? Hmm? I've never once asked for any German names to disappear or for only Italian (Tuscan) to be used... never. So, the impression I have for now is either 1) you are HYPER-sensitive, and go after someone fixing wikilinks assuming some dire conspiracy, or 2) you somehow have an inner need to yell to the World this area is purely German. Please, do prove me wrong. If you simply misunderstood my intentions because of the bridge page, that is fine, then chill the hell out. If you look back at those edits, I only wanted to cite things clearly, and as points were brought up I included them. That you kept adding old Austrian province of South Tyrol, certainly raised eyebrows for myself and others. Think about that action. I'm certainly somebody that if I learn for sure Ponte Romano was but a 1927 invented label for the bridge, then it means nothing culturally to me. It is just a blip in the history. But then other statements you make like all the names were German pre 1919 again makes my eyebrows raise, because you in one sentence disregard the real history of this region -- and that to me is unacceptable. Icsunonove (talk) 20:48, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


Let us make this very simple: South Tyrol: from 600AD to 1919AD over 85% ethnic German. Italians: 3%-5% of population. Claims of multicultural South Tyrol (exception: the 2x Ladin valleys and the area south of Bozen were some thousands Italians lived) before 1920ies = myth, fable, legend, fairy tale. But you can always bring a verifiable and reliable source that says otherwise. Also: whatever the roots of local names were, relevant is what the cultural circle of the people was/is: overwhelmingly Germanic (and that since the early middle ages). But of course I invite you to bring proof that it was otherwise. I’m not out to “shove some aspects of the history out” I’m about to shove the made-up history out – with all the references needed, not because I’m a German nationalist (have a look at my “Top 25 mainspace article edits”) but because your idea of the local history is distorted. No matter how often you repeat it: there is no historical basis for many of your claims. Over the next weeks I will edit all the history in, with all sources and references. Afterwards the articles will be much more detailed, neutral, broader in scope and most importantly accurate, referenced and sourced. Good - right? --noclador (talk) 23:22, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
First of all, you had better never imply that I have purposely added any made-up history. I'll assume for now you were not trying to do so.  :) So, wait, you think it is a myth and fairly tale that there were pre-Germanic people living in villages which have Ladin names that predate by a millennia the mass migration of Germanic people into this region? Wow! :) That is indeed a pretty quick shoveling out of what are irrefutable facts. Who named and founded the villages, garden gnomes? I was afraid you would do this as well, but you completely ignored many of the valid points I made about the greater extent of the Ladin language, the origins of the people just a few thousand meters away in Trentino, Switzerland, etc. I don't have any disagreement that in the middle ages that the area, especially in the northern reaches, had significant Germanic migration (some who are relatives of me!). What I do disagree with you is your dream that the Ladin speakers were always in just a couple pockets of Alto Adige/South Tyrol. Many of the people who spoke Ladin, were with time, mixed into the dominant language communities (and that goes on even now); the people did not evaporate; you can see the shared features in Trentino-Alto Adige to this very day (and you know as well as I do that the region is not full of blonde people). So sorry, many of the people are not "pure" ethnic Germans, and yes, the region has always always been multicultural. But, is that so bad?? How do you think the interesting culture exists! Also, hopefully it won't happen, but say the Romansch speaking people of Switzerland all someday speak either French, German, or Italian, is that their new ethnicity?? Hmm?? By the way, did you ever realize that the term Welsh in German did not originate in this area to describe modern Italian citizens? In the original context, it referred to the Italic people of this region and just a few centuries ago it was applied to describe Ladin speakers. So the German speakers in the middle ages, up until the 20th century, referred to Ladin speakers as Welsh. Did you ever try and put 2 and 2 together when looking at the history of a town like Welschnofen? That town, pre-middle ages, was Nova in Ladin, so where do you think the German Welschnofen might come from? Is that rocket science? Of course in this day and age the city is primarily German speaking. Again, does that specify ethnicity? No. Someone told me that the people in Val Gardena start to speak more German than Ladin. Makes sense, since German is a major commercial language. Are they morphing into "pure" ethnic Germans? No. Again with Welschnofen, would you prefer to believe that is was simply founded by a band of "pure" Germans, and they called it Welschnofen because when they were migrating they had actually dreamt of making it all the way down to Capri? :P Give me a break Noclador. It is difficult for me to fully believe you are not biased towards a hyper-Germanic view when it seems I can upset you by pointing out that Terlan and Meran are not German names, and that even Bozen and Botzen are Germanized words of the names used by the original inhabitants. Why is that so hard to deal with? It is our SHARED history and culture. The Germans NOR the Ladins grew out of the soil, we all migrated here one way or another. Look, speck is brought to us by German thinking mixed with Italic. I'd never try to claim it one way or the other, I LOVE the fact that is not one or the other. Anyway, you'd make a good step if you realized I'm not trying to refute you really, I'm trying to make you realize things are richer than they are. If I point out to you that Meran is not a German word, and comes from the Ladin people here originally, this does not mean anyone wants to de-Germanize or throw anyone out. Got it?? @_@ Icsunonove (talk) 01:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
No reply Noclador? =) I'm sure you haven't given up yet on the "pure German" view and Italian history only from the last century... Icsunonove (talk) 00:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It is not worth my time to keep track of your snide attacks and biased statements, which are way too often incredibly full of factual errors. I have better things to do; like expand the articles about South Tyrol - with historical facts, sources, references,... isn't that great! Soon we will be able to put POVs, original research, myths and factual errors all to rest. --noclador (talk) 01:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is very mature of you Noclador. I've tried multiple times to get you and your man Gun Powder Ma to discuss things calmly, instead you guys would rather continue to play the angry internet warrior. Instead of addressing the points I make in a civilized debate, you run away with your tail between your legs calling them biased statements and snide attacks. You think I didn't expect that you would once again completely avoid the issues, given how you've repeatedly dodged any facts that spoil your "pure" German POV? Show me my biased statements, why don't you? Show me the "incredible factual errors", if you can. You have proven my point again and again that you are fearful of anything that shows the Province of Bolzano to not be purely German. That said, I must say you being from Merano provides a certain grand satisfaction with regard to the irony that this name is not, nor ever will be of German origin. Every time you say Meran, you will in fact be saying a Ladin word, a word of a people you would like to dream never existed in this area. In the end you are simply doing EXACTLY the same thing you accuse the fascists and Tolomei of doing a century ago; so I hope you do enjoy your company. Maybe one day you will realize this, and if you don't, who cares... Icsunonove (talk) 07:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Nice to see that as time passes on, things with Icsunonove never change. 12.110.213.195 (talk) 01:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Hey Rarelibra, long time no see! :) How is Texas? Is this some sock puppet, or did you forget to log in? :) Yeah, I will forever be someone with an open mind and not tied to a black-and-white attitude. That will never change. :) Icsunonove (talk) 05:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The article says " With the end of the Roman empire a Bavarian immigration began and the first mentioning of a Bavarian count as ruler of Bozen dates from 679. The area has been settled by German populations since than." I don't know how much clearer it has to be that this is a Germanic city. The article says the city was settled by German populations since the year 679. The article also says "At the time of its annexation {after WW I}, Bozen was an ethnic German city, with a pre-war population of 30,000 people, 95.52% of whom were German native speakers." Also, Bozen was part of the German speaking country of Austria for how long? Over a millenia? Also, the reason Misplaced Pages refers to the city as Bolzano is not because Bolzano is the English name of the city. All English language encyclopedia's will refer to Bolzano and all other cities that were formerly German by the name the country they are now part of calls them. This goes for hundreds of cities taken from Germany and Austria since the end of WW I (Pilsen now PLZEN - Czech, Bozen now Bolzano - Italian, Danzig now Gdansk - Poland, Breslau now Wroclaw - Poland). Your attempts to deny the German history of this city are disgusting. Unfortunately, when it comes to anything German wikipedia will always be opposed to the German (and Austrian) point of view. Also, English is a Germanic language - derived from German. So, the the word Bolzano is used for the reason I explained above.

In addition, Italy is a beautiful country, but its not an accident that Bolzano or (Bozen) has the second highest standard of living in Italy. When the worlds best cities (ranked by standard of living) are published in magazines, there are typically 3 to 5 German speaking cities ranked in the top ten cities in the world (Zurich, Vienna, Munich). No other country has more than one city ranked in the top ten: The USA, the UK, France and Italy each don't have any cities that rank in the top ten.

You are biased, just as most of the wikipedia editors are. There is no question about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pgg804 (talkcontribs) 03:44, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

English page: BOLZANO

After spending some time revising historic inaccuracies that were published without citing reliable sources and feeding mostly on common Italian historic rendition, I also realize that the article is a rough, approximate, and poor translation from Italian. Italian expressions are translated verbatim and as a result the English page reads awkward and unconvincing. Although I`ve edited several paragraphs that had been written and published with numerous English language issues, I believe that the article still needs major revisions, both with regard to contents and to English terminology and grammar.

Hello, I've reverted your edits as, unfortunately, they contained errors and were undiscussed. You talked about a war between Austria and Italy in 2015. No doubt a typo, but indicative of the changes. More seriously, you changed some statements that came from sources, which is not allowed. I agree with you about the need to improve the article, but please do so through careful editing and by discussing with other editors. Jeppiz (talk) 15:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)+

SPECIFIC ISSUES IN THE CANCELLATION BY JEPPIZ:

``No fighting took place in the County of Tyrol during the First World War.`` Jeppiz claims that this statement is supported by the cited source. That is impossible. He failed to evaluate the source and double check whether the statement respects the source. The Tyrolean front line was over 400 Km long and there were thousands of casualties in battles fought all along the Tyrolean borders, with tens of war cemeteries built to bury the dead. You can easily find evidence of the absurdity of the statement

``Nevertheless, those Germans who opted to stay in South Tyrol ....` Jeppiz wrongly reverted to this version. Inhabitants of South Tyrol are not Germans, although they speak German. Jeppiz reverted to a clearly inaccurate version without investigating my changes.

ENTIRE PARAGRAPH ``In the 1920s, along with the rest of South Tyrol, Bolzano was subjected to an intensive Italianisation programme.........`` Jeppiz erased all my changes, for no reason. I had edited the paragraph to improve readability, grammar and English language issues, accuracy (the previous paragraph spoke of `those Germans` whereas historically South Tyroleans were not Germans, although they spoke German. The paragraph was poorly written and I made changes to improve that.

`` After 1943, heavy fighting against Nazi Germany and the Axis Powers took place in the Dolomite Alps once the Allied Powers had liberated Italy.`` Jeppiz mistakenly reverted to this version. He made two mistakes: First, there is no such thing as the Dolomite Alps. They are called DOLOMITES, or, likely acceptable in English, Dolomitic Alps. Second, the statement is virtually impossible. The Allied troops could not have fought in the Dolomites after Italy had been liberated, because the Dolomites are in Italy and therefore the statement is nonsensical. My reinstated version ameliorated both points.

`` independence movements gradually gained popularity among the Germanic population in Bolzano and South Tyrol.` Jeppiz cl,early has no knowledge of local history and erased my ALL comments based on dubious reasons. In this case, I had improved the narrative by erasing the word `gradually` since the local population had overwhelmingly sought re-unification with Austria. My other changes, erased by Jeppiz, were meant to improve readability, since the pre-existing paragraph was poorly written. Jeppiz deemed my changes to be worth of his ax.

``In 1996, the European Union approved of further integration of the Austrian state of Tyrol with the Germanic province of South Tyrol and Trentino (Welschtirol) in Italy.`` Jeppiz incorrectly reverted to this version which shows two inaccuracies: 1) Tyrol is not an Austrian state; it`s an Austrian province (Land and not Staat). 2)South Tyrol is not a Germanic province. In 1996 it was an Italian bilingual autonomous province. My correction was accurate and needed no axing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.151.117.48 (talk) 18:37, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I don`t know who you are, but evidently you play god with someone else`s work. The fact that you erased all my changes and reverted back to the original ``No fighting took place in the County of Tyrol during the First World War.`` proves your inadequacy as whatever your role is. There were thousands of casualties in battles fought all along the Tyrolean borders, with tens of war cemeteries built to bury the dead. You can easily find evidence of the absurdity of the statement that you re-installed by virtue of a power position, instead of using your knowledge of the themes discussed in the article. Before you intervene to defend a mediocre wiki page in need of thorough revisions, you should assess the validity of its contents, not just publish something just because ONE very questionable source is cited. How about evaluating the source? Did you do that? I can assure you that a source stating that no fighting happened in Tyrol is bogus, the same as saying that no fighting happened in Normandy during WWII. The Tyrolean front line was over 400 Km long, but that of course doesn`t count, because you decided that the `source` of the citation is valid. That would not get you a C on a freshman`s history essay. Furthermore, your comments are offensive and unsubstantiated, when, aside from blaming me for a typo that you could have fixed without much fuss, you imply that I made errors. Which ones? You didn`t elaborate; you just used your censorial ax and reverted EVERYTHING to a version filled with inaccuracies and language mistakes while, by your own admission, you ``agree... about the need to improve the article.`` If you recognize that need, since you play the expert`s role, why didn`t you say where and how the article should be improved? Your kind of editorial work must be very fulfilling - for you, but serves no purpose in terms of accuracy and readability. Misplaced Pages is a project written by informed people with a good attitude and openness towards learning. Where do you stand on that? Whatever your answer, it won`t matter to me, because I don`t subscribe to communication built on prevarication, which apparently you enjoy. I won`t engage. Good luck.

Thank you for your comment, but I encourage you to comment on content, not on other editors. Please read WP:NPA. Misplaced Pages is not about being right, it's about accurately representing reliable sources. Apart from the personal attacks on me, your reply largely consists of arguments that you're right and the sources wrong, therefore you can change what the sources say. That is absolutely forbidden, and a form of vandalism. If a source is wrong, and can be proven to be wrong by using better sources, then we can always remove a source. However, changing the text while keeping the same sources is to misrepresent them, and that is definitely not allowed. Once again, I encourage you to engage constructively and impassionately by discussing with other users. As a general rule, if somebody undoes your changes, you should first discuss and reach a WP:CONSENSUS before reinstating the changes (WP:BRD). Last but not least, you don't have the option not to engage with other users on Misplaced Pages. It's a collective project, and nobody is above discussing with others. Jeppiz (talk) 21:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea who Jeppis is, but he has no standing to preach a sermon. I said that I was not going to engage WITH JEPPIZ because he is not discussing anything. He is simply imposing his censorship without any knowledge of the content he is censoring and without addressing my comments and changes on their merit. Therefore I am not engaging with Jeppiz. He is acting out of a position of self-avowed power behind the pretentious claim that he is following Wiki guidelines. I have explained in details why Jeppiz` censorial cuts were wrong, mainly because Jeppiz didn`t act constructively - like he implies, failing to verify whether the many inconsistencies in the articles were actually supported by the sources that he is so adamantly defending. Jeppiz failed to act responsibly as an editor and didn`t consider the merit of my comments. Had he done that, he would have found out that THE CITED SOURCES DID NOT SUPPORT THE STATEMENTS I critiqued in my comments. Before accusing others of vandalism, jeppiz needs to develop the necessary self-analitic skills to ensure that he will no longer overstep his role by censoring someone else`s work without any knowledge of the subject, which jeppiz clearly lacks. Again, I am writing this for other users, as I find it of little value to engage with someone who is not even reading my full changes and comments and is unable to address them in a professional manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.151.117.48 (talk) 00:17, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

My opinion: The newly written version seems to me clearly better and removes factual inaccuracies. For example, the statement that no fighting took place in the County of Tyrol is (excuse my French) plain bollocks... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 08:18, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

the right name si Bolzano!.Bolzanobozen (talk) 15:06, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Current day language statistics

I came across very different statistics on another wiki page. I decided to check out the references and it seems that the person that put in the statistics in this article must have inadvertently switched German and Italian as both given sources show German as the majority language. ("New") numbers taken from the same sources as given earlier. Engman90 (talk) 09:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Can you post a link to any reliable source that says German is the majority language in the city of Bolzano? Please note we're taking about the city of Bolzano here, not the province of the same name. Jeppiz (talk) 13:34, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

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German vs Austrian vs Germanophone

Reading this page left me with a lot of questions of what is meant by "German". Does it refer to as simply being a native speaker of German (Germanophone)? Does it imply cultural affinity with northern German states, and not Austria? Does it imply a cultural geographic continuum between Austria? I think every usage of "German' referring to a person should be replaced with either Germanophone or Austrian or at least be clarified. 38.32.32.42 (talk) 22:05, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Questions and comments on the article

After reading this article I came up with some questions and comments.

1. "in Pauzana valle, quae lingua Teutisca Pozana nuncupatur".

I'm not well versed in Latin and I doubt many readers are as well. What's the translation?

2. "In 1277 Bolzano was conquered by Meinhard II, the Count of Tyrol, leading to a struggle between the counts of Tyrol and the bishops of Trent."

This sentence is weird. It talks about a conquest followed by a struggle. Can somebody rephrase it properly since the struggle typically comes before the conquest?

3. I do not agree with the title "Capital of an autonomous province". The section primarily talks about the province so it should be changed to "Autonomous province" for consistency with the text.

4. "This table shows the mayors of the city of Bolzano after 1945". There is no table next to it.

5. "Additionally, Reinhold Messner's experiences, collections and memories of the expeditions will be exhibited". It sounds like this may need to be updated.

6. Bolzano Festival Bozen? Not a clever name for an event (it does not even say what it's about).

7. "The Bolzano Christmas Market was founded in 1990 as Italy's first Christmas market" and "With over 1.2 million visitors (2005), the Bolzano Christmas Market is the most visited in Italy". I would like to see a source for both statements to prove the facts.

ICE77 (talk) 19:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Climate/winter climate

Winters are really dry (below 30mm), isn’t it making Bolzano a Cwa climate? דולב חולב (talk) 02:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

The wettest summer month should have at least 10x the precipitation of the driest winter month for Cw climate.
Some cities like Bolzano, Wuhan or Rosario,Argentina look like Cwa climates but mathematically fail.
If Bolzano had over 180 or 200 mm of precipitation in one summer month then it could be Cwa. But it doesn’t.PAper GOL (talk) 18:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Brisbane fails the criteria as well. For Cw unlike Cs climates we have no 30 mm boundary.PAper GOL (talk) 21:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Good to know. Thank you דולב חולב (talk) 13:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
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