Revision as of 23:38, 7 October 2006 edit203.54.9.205 (talk) →The Source of the 'Gundgaai as Cradle of Reconcilation' Claim← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 01:10, 28 January 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,012,373 edits Implementing WP:PIQA (Task 26)Tag: Talk banner shell conversion | ||
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{{WikiProject Australia|importance=Low <!-- Wikiproject specific tags --> |Riverina=yes|Riverina-importance=High|place=yes|place-importance=mid}} | |||
Earlier discussions have been archived at ] --]\<sup>]</sup> 01:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
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==Almost Got Life for Warby Escape== | |||
==Semi-protection== | |||
I have invoked semiprotection for this article. Any comments about the semiprotection should be directed to the ]. | |||
"Daniel Dugurd, a constable for the district of Bong Bong, stood indicted for permitting a prisoner named William Warby lo escape from his custody on the 18th Nov., 1835. It appeared that Warby had been delivered into his custody, under a warrant issued against him by Mr. W. Dutton, J. P., Yass, upon a charge of receiving stolen cattle. The constable having got intoxicated, the prisoner escaped from him. His Honor, in putting the case to the Jury, left it for them to say whether the constable had allowed Warby to escape through wilfulness or negligence. They found him guilty of allowing the escape through negligence :-Sentenced to pay a fine of 40s., and to be imprisoned for two years. The Judge, at the same time, intimated that, had the Jury found him guilty of wilfulness, he would have felt it his duty to have sentenced him to transportation for life." | |||
I will similarly semi-protect any related articles if I notice any abusive edits being carried out from the same IP range - abusive edits refers to the tone of the edit summary as well as the actual edit itself. | |||
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2206078? | |||
==Benjamin Warby== | |||
All editors should be aware of Misplaced Pages policies, specifically: ], ], ], ] and ]. Any editors breaching any of the policies will be blocked and their contributions reverted. | |||
"BENJAMIN WARBY. On Thursday last, Benjamin Warby was placed at the bar of the Supreme Court, charged with receiving a number of cattle knowing them to be stolen, the property of various individuals. This case has excited considerable attention. A brother of the prisoner was tried and convicted on the clearest testimony at the last Session of the Supreme Court, for cattle-stealing; it appeared on his trial that he had possesed himself of immense herds of cattle, (Bens brother William), in a very short time, but that his character had been so good, that; though all were surprised at the rapidity with which his herds increased, yet were they un willing to suspect him of resorting to, cattle stealing. Through the exertions of Henry O'Brien, Esq., J. P., of Yass, the immense extent of cattle-stealing carried on in that part of the country attracted public attention, and suspicion at last fell on Warby, for it was impossible in any other way to account for the rapidity with which he had amassed so much property in the course of a few years. A cattle-stealer who had long been suspected was at last detected, and to save himself from the punishment due to his crimes, he made disclosures to Mr. O'Brien, before whom he was brought for examination which led to the discovery of a system of cattle-stealing, so extensive in its operations, and so well organised in its various ramifications as almost to seem incredible. From the information thus received, it appeared that (William) Warby was deeply concerned in this trade, which he had managed to carry on for several years, with impunity. The apprehension of the fellow who made these disclosures, together with several others who had acted as agents in these, nefarious transactions; and the apprehension created by the active exertions of Mr. O'Brien, had struck terror to the hearts of the cattle-stealers in the neighbour- hood; and when a warrant was, issued for the apprehension of Warby, it was found that he had taken the alarm and had made his escape. It subsequently appeared that he had made his way to Campbelltown, where his parents reside, and in the neighbourhood of Benjamin Warby, the prisoner then before the Court also resides. Apprehensive that his conviction should follow in the event of his being tried, and his property confiscated to the use of the Crown, he resolved to make all he possessed over to his brother, that he might thus prevent it from falling into the hands of the Government; he came accom panied by his brother to Sydney, to consult Mr. Francis Stephen as to the best means of accom plishing their object. By Mr. S.'s direction a bill of sale was drawn out, and signed in the regular manner, disposing of all his stock, farming utensils, &c. to his brother, for and in considera tion of the sum of two thousand five hundred pounds, for which he agreed to accept bills, payable at various times from three months to three years. Having arranged matters thus they returned to Campbelltown, where William Warby was arrested on the warrant for his apprehension, which had been forwarded from Yass. Benjamin Warby was in attendance at the Court House at Yass on the examination before that Bench when his brother was committed, and was warned by Mr. O'Brien to take care how he meddled with his brother's cattle, which would, in the event of his conviction, become the property of the Crown. He replied, that the cattle were now his own, that he taken legal advice on the subject, and was perfectly safe. Mr. O'Brien told him that there were some more approvers expected who had not yet seen the cattle, and would probably be able to identify numbers in the flock; besides he told them the increase of those cattle which were stolen some years ago were still among them, and ought to remain open for the inspection of the public. (Ben)Warby said that he intended to take none but such as bore his brother's brand, and that there was a clause in the bill of sale securing him from the conse quences of taking such as might be stolen. A few days after, Mr. O'Brien hearing that (Ben) Warby was moving all the cattle from his brother's station and sending some to Sydney for sale, rode over to the station, accompanied by some friends, and warned him again of the consequences of persisting in the line of conduct he was pursuing; (Ben) Warby made a similar reply to his former one, and persisted in doing as he pleased with the cattle. Some of those cattle which (Ben) Warby forwarded to Sydney for the purpose of selling, were discoved to be stolen and claimed as the property of Messrs. Hill and Roberts. (Ben) Warby was brought up at the police, office and committed to take his trial for receiving stolen cattle. After a long trial, he was acquitted by the Jury, as it was evident that his intention was not to receive stolen property, but to defraud the Crown. He was remanded to take his trial for another offence, but subsequently the Attorney-General consented to his discharge on his own recognizance. The Attorney-General in consenting to (Ben) Warby's discharge said, that he understood that it was a regular custom when prisoners were committed to take their trial on charges likely to lead to their conviction and transportation, to purchase their property before the trial, in order to prevent its confiscation to the use of the Crown; and he signified his intention of prosecuting to the utmost stretch of his power, in all cases of this nature which came under his cognizance. The Warbys are both natives of the colony; their parents, who reside at Campbelltown, came originally prisoners of the Crown to the colony, but they have always maintained a respectable character; they have gathered together a considerable property. Their mother has given birth to no fewer than twenty-two children; all natives of the colony, and, until the present occurence, all have behaved themselves well. In addition to the two beforementioned, a charge of cattle- stealing is now it is said under investigation against a younger brother." | |||
Recommencing editing in less than the block period is a breach of the ]. | |||
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31718022?searchTerm=warby natives&searchLimits= | |||
==Whabys Creek== | |||
All editors have also been put on notice that comments on talk pages should be signed. Unsigned comments may be reverted.--]\<sup>]</sup> 21:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
"Whaby's Creek | |||
:I agree with your semi-protection stance to reduce vandalism to this article. Rather than block in the first instance from now on, I'll semi-protect wherever necessary. Blocking will of course be used if the problem moves on to other articles. -- ] 22:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
Sturt's name for the Muttama Creek. Warby had squatted at its junction with the Murrumbidgee, a little north of Gundagai. | |||
Sturt, Charles, Two expeditions into the interior of southern Australia, during the years 1828, 1829, 1830, and 1831 : with observations on the soil, climate, and general resources of the colony of New South Wales,2vols, London, 1833, vol.1, map. | |||
== Reversion of edits and blocking == | |||
I have reverted the unsigned and abusive edit of {{Userblock|203.54.9.97}} and blocked for three hours. Avoidance of the block by this editor would be a breach of wikipedia policy.--]\<sup>]</sup> 22:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
*Another revert and block of {{Userblock|203.54.186.172}} - again for 3 hours for deliberate and provocative breach of ]--]\<sup>]</sup> 02:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
Cumpston, J.H.L., Charles Sturt : His Life and Journeys of Exploration, Melbourne, 1951, p.32." | |||
== Plagiarism of Bruce Elder == | |||
http://www.let.osaka-u.ac.jp/seiyousi/Ghost-Gazetteer/maps/HP/NSW/tumut.htm | |||
*In an unsigned edit from IP 203.54.9.195 at 02:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC), a suggestion was made that this article included plagiarism: '' 'Gundagai in Literature' has not been cited. Its a blatant plagarism off Bruce Elder. Wake up to your self whoever put this here and stop plagarising (well known Australian) authors.'' | |||
Plagiarism is a serious allegation. | |||
Whaby's Creek features also on several old maps such as some versions of the Arrowsmith maps. | |||
I assume the anon editor is referring to the unattributed columns published by the ''Sydney Morning Herald'' or Fairfax which I htink are in fact written by Elder. In the case of Gundagai, the two relevant publications are and . The Misplaced Pages text is largely from the creation of the article in September 2004. | |||
==Warby's Station== | |||
Easiest comparison to my mind is probably by table: | |||
{| class="wikitable" | |||
!Misplaced Pages!!Walkabout and SMH Travel - identical | |||
|- | |||
|The gold mining made the town prosperous, a centre for bushrangers, and gave the town a romantic bush appeal that resulted in Gundagai becoming a byword for outback town in Australia. Evidence of this can be seen via the number of stories, songs and poems that reference Gundagai. These include the Jack O'Hagan composed songs Where the Dog Sits on the Tuckerbox (five miles from Gundagai), Along the Road to Gundagai and When a Boy from Alabama Meets a Girl from Gundagai, as well as Banjo Patterson's The Road to Gundagai and the traditional ballad Flash Jack from Gundagai. Additionally, the town is mentioned in Henry Lawson's Scots of the Riverina and C.J. Dennis' The Traveller. | |||
|Perhaps more than any other Australian town, Gundagai has proved an irresistible subject with writers of popular verse. This perhaps relates to the fact that Five Mile Creek, to the north of town, was a popular meeting place with teamsters, drovers, shearers and bush travellers. The famous story of the Dog on the Tuckerbox is discussed in Things to See. 'Lazy Harry', 'On the Road to Gundagai' and 'Flash Jack from Gundagai' are three anonymous poems relating to the town. The latter two were first published in 'Banjo' Paterson's Old Bush Songs (1905). Paterson himself also wrote a ballad called 'The Road to Gundagai'. Capitalising on this tradition, Jack O'Hagan, who had never been to Gundagai, wrote the nostalgic and highly sentimental song 'Along the Road to Gundagai' which, in 1922, became an international success and the signature tune for the popular radio show 'Dad and Dave'. Knowing a good thing when he felt it in his wallet, O'Hagan later wrote 'Where the Dog Sits on the Tuckerbox' and 'When a Boy from Alabama Meets a Girl from Gundagai'. The hero of Henry Lawson's 'Scots of the Riverina' also has a farm 'by Gundagai' wile C.J. Dennis mentions the town in 'The Traveller'. | |||
|} | |||
Where today's Mingay is in the previous district of Lachlan. From M.1.831 Surveyor Stapleton 1833, 'To Tumut River and Warby's station', State Records NSW. The Surveyor General's Maps and Plans. | |||
Do others think this is plagiarism? I don't. It certainly covers similar ground - that is the nature of the topic, however, from the article on ]: ''It is not plagiarism to use well-known 'common sense' facts''. Accusations of plagiarism that are false are quite reprehensible.--]\<sup>]</sup> 02:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Mrs William Warby== | |||
: No, I can't see any plagiarism there. There are similarities, in that the same poems and songs are mentioned in roughly the same order but, as you mentioned, the nature of the topic is to mention the literature surrounding Gundagai. Next we will be accused of plagiarism because our article also mentions the Dog on the Tuckerbox. I am presuming the anon user is trying to find ways to discredit the article after failing to insert his/her POV in the article. --] 10:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
It seems that Mrs William Warby and two children went to VDL also on the 'Siren' to help William serve his 14 year sentence that lasted six years. Those two children may have been born at what later became to be named in 1838, 'Gundagai'. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4175752? | |||
::Despite visiting us twice yesterday, she didn't seem inclined to respond to this discussion point, despite making the allegation in the first place.--]\<sup>]</sup> 21:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::Two additions of 12 August (reverted as reproducing material on plagiarism from other websites as well as being unsigned), did not deal with the actual lack of congruence of the text. Anon editor was warned twice with {{tl|Nothanks-drm}}--]\<sup>]</sup> 10:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
==John Warby?== | |||
I did respond to the content above re plagarism, but 'they' deleted it too or reverted it. I think they deleted it like they did what I put on Rfc. I forget now. Its all been too bizarre. | |||
On the 1841 Robert Dixon map, (Map F, 892),there are three Warby names around the junction of the Tumut and Murrumbidgee Rivers. One of these three is for a Run on Adjinbilly Creek where that Creek runs in to the Tumut River. That Run is not at Darbalara or at Mingay. It is east of both Darbalara and Mingay. Dixons map was engraved from the information taken back to Sydney by the explorers and by the Surveyor General Major Mitchell, after his trip through the Gundagai area. | |||
What I put re plagarism was put there a couple of days ago, and disappeared again as they do to all I post. | |||
== |
==Why== | ||
I seen the post on AN/I and just wanted to understand the issue here. Is there a reason the kicking Yarri story the anon is trying to insert is being removed? is it fiction? a copy-vio issue or something else? Not taking sides just wondering, it seems sourced, so I was wondering what the reason was. --] 12:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
: I also wonder why the anon was being reverted. If it is a copy-vio the content can be rewritten. ] 12:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
::1879 I believe would be predating copyright law. Not 100% sure. --]] 12:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
::: When I first saw this reversion, it looked like the added content was very close to the phrasing of hte 2003 ABC.net.au article, which would be under copyright. If ''that'' is why it was reverted, it can be rewritten. ] 12:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::The text on ABC is in quotation marks meaning they are reciting it word for word as it appeared, that would mean the original story is posted in that form in the newspaper, making the copyright, if one existed from 1879. If ABC didnt create the story they cant own the copyright anyway. I believe stories written before 1939 or something close are too old to be copyrights anyway. Also I believe written stories coyprights expire after 100 years, we should ask the copyright peopel about that if its the last issue. --]] 13:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::: OK, I thought it had some of the non-quoted text too. ] 13:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::1879 the source is out dated and I can't even find it. -- ] 12:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
Why does this 'Graeme Healy' dispute content such as ''Bewuck being the name for the Junction of the ] and ]s''? That is the local Aboriginal name for that area and its recorded in official documents, in content available online, but also by ] the famous Australian author, but is also in recent Aboriginal language dictionaries given to me by a local Aboriginal Elder. Yet this 'Greame Healy' disputes the offical record, a famous author from the same area and Aboriginal people themselves. I also cited the Bewuck content. Placenames are a branch of archaeology. Giving the Aboriginal name for a landscape feature in Gundagai Shire that is cited and is correct should not invite angst from anyone especially in this post 'The Apology to Australian Aboriginal people' era. The other complaints made by 'Graeme Healy' are all as silly such as the entry for the Kimo bunyip etc. That is recorded in correspondence between the famous anthropologist Norman Tindale and by the boss of the ]'s History department and I cited it. If 'Graeme Healy' knows better than those two emminent, highly qualified and respected historians then that is sad. There is also a large and fierce bunyip near Bewuck cited by the same sources. The Darling R./Murrumbidgee R Junction would also have the same as it exhibits the same feature at high river flood time. I likely have access to content that 'Graeme Healy' has no access to some of which I have put here. That does not mean though if some people don't know or have no understanding of some ] and other things that all the world's information and skills not understood by them, should be denied. | |||
Look at the ABC.net.au article, which I was able to find quite easily. It references the 1879 newspaper. ] 13:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Gary Vines the Coolac Massacre Publisher== | |||
How do we know if the ABC has used parts of this story without checking it's sources? -- ] 13:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
: Is ABC a reliable source according to WP:RS? What basis do you have for doubting it? ] 13:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
It was Gary Vines the Coolac Masscare publisher in recent times. See: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=sr#!topic/ozarch/PBYs7TaotSM | |||
There is absolutely no copyright on the 1879 Yarri story. Its still appropriate to note its origin though so it can be checked, plus also polite to do so re original author/publisher. | |||
I replied to that slanderous nonsense of Vines on the above URL via his talk page. If he encourages that person who asked him about the Coolac Massacre at OzArch he is encouraging that person to repeat lies that are easily shown to be wrong via the Coolac Archaeological survey documents of which I have copies so will be encouraging that OzArch poster to commit libel/slander of me. Gary Vines and that terrible "physiological" poster above, need to wake up to themselves. Johneen Jones (I am also J Jones believe it or not), - Gundagai. | |||
I put the 1879 article re Yarri here and its copied word for word from its source,a nd its two sources given. Bidgee can easily check as there is a copy of Butchers book in the town library of the town he lives in as he well knows. He can also come to Gundgaai and see the original source on microfische or get the library where he lives to get the copy sent over which would take maybe a week, and he can view it at his local library. Bidgee would know all this. If he checks the artcle also, he can see its fully cited. | |||
Well the story itself doesn't have the source to the 1879 article and it's only one source (We can't see whats in the 1879 article since we don't know where to find it). -- ] 13:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Thats not how WP:RS works. Since ABC passes ] we have to assume that they did their research. The ABC link says the story came from the newspaper and so its a legitamate source. We should list ABC however as the source and not the Gundagai Times, since we are really using ABC for our information. --]] 13:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
Nuclear, the above is NOT how u cite the article. U MUST cite the original source. Do it like this >>> Yarri article 1879 in ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au | |||
I think ABC (it would have originated at ABC Riverina) got it out of Butchers book though, in which case, all three cites must be there as per above, with one added. The original cite goes in italics, then the next is underlined, then the next something else. All three must be noted though. If ABC got it straight from the original paper at Gundagai Library, then no need to cite Butchers book but MUST cite its original source. | |||
::I just wanted to point out that some of the information they were adding to Coolac seems to be true as well regarding the dog. I found this same information repated elsewhere, not the poisoning scandal issue, but of the dog. It appears that the dog on the tuckerbox story is what put Gundagai on the world map apparently. This is why its usually best to selective edit instead of revert. I will clean up what they were trying to add later today if I get a chance. --]] 13:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
Here are the links about the anon which states that I'm wrong . Can someone have a look at it for me? Also I have recordings of the local news but the copyright act stops me from uploading it. -- ] 14:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
:I am not saying the massacre happened as I pointed out. I cant find anything on it in relation to the dog. I was just stating that the dog and accompanying poem is what made Gundagai famous world wide (didnt know it was). As for the massacre I am not even sure how to verify that as I have yet to find sources stating it and feel analyzing poems for contextual meaning is not proper, and so should not be used for a source, that is just my opinion and you may want to ask the folks at WP:CITE for a firmer response. --]] 14:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
== Locus of dispute == | |||
Looking very briefly at the article and the edit summaries left by the anon editor two days ago, it seems to me that the real dispute is that the article says the 1853 flood was the beginning of reconciliation, while the anon wants to point out that racism and abuse of natives actually continued for many years. As usual, the answer to a dispute over information and sources is more information and more sources. | |||
First, I have to point out that it is not vandalism to want to say such a thing, it is a content dispute, and editors need to work together rather than making assumptions and blind reverting. The anon editor was editing inartfully, but it wasn't vandalism. | |||
You can not say in the article that the flood was the basis of reconciliation; that's opinion and original research. You can ''report'' that other people have said so if you have a source for it. Likewise you can not call this view a racist whitewash, but you can report if other people have said so. And the incident and controversy over it may need to be introduced in a better way. For example, | |||
<blockquote> | |||
Gundagai was flooded in 1852 and many residents were saved by three natives in their canoe.(ref) Gundagai residents point to this incident as the beginning of the reconciliation process (ref). However, historian John Smith has noted that racist incidents and harassment of natives continued in Gundagai for nearly 50 years after the flood (ref). For example, in 1897, a visitor to the town saw several locals abusing a blackman, whom he acertained was Yarri, one of the heroes of the 1852 flood (ref). | |||
</blockquote> | |||
Appropriate references vary. For the statement that locals consider their town the start of the reconciliation movement you could use the towns own web site or a published history of the town even if it is arguably biased. You can report what people ''say about themselves'', expecting it to be biased in their favor; reporting that they say it about themselves is different from reporting that it is true. For statements that harrassment of natives continued until 1897 the 1897 newspaper is adequate; as a professional news network (not a blog or other advocacy site) we must take the ABC report of what the newspaper said at face value unless someone actually gets a copy of the 1897 article. | |||
The point is you need sources and to report what other people have said and written in those sources, and not to include your own conclusions, opinions or interpretations. Hope this helps. ] 15:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
Just ONE gundagai local (out of 3,000) claims the town is the cradle of reconcilitation. Its said to gain commercial kudos. | |||
Thanks for your input, (above). I dont reg as it isnt compulsory - is it. No need to. Is that like not stepping forward to volunter, then all others step back? | |||
Attacks on Indigenous people continue at Gundagai (recorded in nationwide media) up to Sept 2005. | |||
The reconcilitation claim is uncited, incorrect and twaddle. Isnt wik after more correct content? | |||
I am being deleted from my comments on Rfc by these same editors. Can Rfc be deleted by editors? | |||
== the anonymous editor == | |||
I would like to hear from the anonymous editor on my talk page before I unprotect the article. I would like to know why he/she hasn't or can't register for an account, and I would like to discuss editing techniques. However I do not want to leave aonymous editors locked out forever. ] 15:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Might want to ask why they never sign their posts either, leaving it for the likes of everyone else to clean up. Good luck. You'll need it. -- ]\<sup>]</sup> 09:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
Longhair, go take a quick eze. Spread yr misery elsewhere. | |||
:I'm giving you one clear warning. Stop wish your ], or be blocked once again. -- ]\<sup>]</sup> 10:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
Bidgee imagines the Wagga paper is a credible source re Gundagai. So funny. No paper is regarded as a credible source of info. They are largely just words on paper, then when they are corrected, they use the correction as more news. Its also funny how the poor old platypus became politcal. No one does that to magpies. Some humans minds work so weird many times. | |||
::Your comment is misleading. It wasn't just in the paper it was on both Prime and Win News. Wiki classes papers as credible sources. -- ] 10:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
What was in the Wagga paper and on Prime and Win News? Was it the recent update re Coolac? If so, that is because last week there was a media briefing as I have told u elsewhere. I have tried to get the media to report coolac better as there is some really interesting arch stuff happening but Doug Hogan for example told me that it was up to Indigenous people to invite them. As its all being run by the RTA, it was up to the RTA to issue invites. Seems they did but as there is not much known by the media, (to lead to asking questions etc etc), I guess not much was reported. The recent current issues such as platypus and when is it to start got discussed though. The media is only as good as it wants to and can be. | |||
Re the yarri bashing the local 1879 newspaper source is OK as that was reporting an observation of a bashing which is pretty straightforward. Re Coolac the media reporting has been totally woeful, starting first as some sort of joint media campaign claiming that 'roads kill' to get the bypas started ignoring that the bypass cannot start till the EIS is completed properly under Oz Law no matter what the meeja think they can influence - as it eventuated the last 2 years in reality, totally contrary to the meeja campaign. Bet the meeja sold more papers etc because of their failed 'roads kill' campaign which meant that commercially, they were successful. Killer roads. I think DSM-V has a category for that sort of claim (aka delusional). Next we will hear about iceblock eating roads perhaps. Personified roads. | |||
Re promoting Gundgaai as the cradle of reconcilitation - this idea sprang up around 2001 when it was decided to get funding to jazz up the Old Gundgaai Site (that the 1852 Flood washed away) and promote it as a tourist attraction. Small towns and topurism is a big deal post the 1993 LGA. Small towns are now expected to fund themselves as much as possible rather than expecting the State Gov to do so for stuff it should not have to. Multiple funding applications re the Old Gundgaai Site were made by the then Heritage Advisor. An amount of near $500,000 was sought I think to tizz the site up and to link it back into the local museum with a viewing platform etc. for tourists. They were going to curb and gutter the site and put in signs etc etc. so people could view - basically, nothing. When the applications were received in Sydney, they were rejected. Heritage specialists in Sydney think professionally and probably a bit different to the intentions and politics of small town locals, re some issues and other massively significant heritage. Promoting Gundagai as the cradle of reconcilitation a few years back fitted in with the propsed European image building for the town as an ethnocentric tourist drawcard. Bit like creating the Gallipoli legend for the nation. | |||
Cradle of Reconcilation is a huge claim. It would need to be correct and given there were multiple massacres around this area and the reports of the Commissioners for Aboriginal people also tell a different story, Gundagai is probably one of the last places to be able to legitimately make that claim. | |||
If Gundagai wants to reconcile, it should admit what has happened previously, officially apologise and go on from there rather than acting like a dog with a bone re surveys of Aboriginal heritage. Gundagai may want to 'reconcile' but its a non Indigenous concept to wash away the past, with probably no relevance to Indigenous people. An offical 'sorry' and admissions re past massacres might be more effective with every support given to put plaques on the massacre sites. Maybe if the town did 20 years of stuff such as this, it might then have the basis of a credible claim re Reconcilitation. | |||
The Old Gundagai Site is now back under the care and control of the herd of cattle who live there and no curbing or guttering of the area happened and the Public Money that would have been wasted doing this, wasnt wasted. Other damage to significant heritage also didnt happen. | |||
Australia : NSW : Riverina and Wagga Wagga | |||
Tuesday, 6 September 2005. 13:43 (AEST) | |||
Crop-duster's spray hits group of Aborigines | |||
Emergency services are on stand-by in the village of Coolac in south-west New South Wales to treat a group of 19 people who were sprayed by a crop-duster this morning. | |||
The chemical is yet to be identified. | |||
A group of Aboriginal people and Road and Traffic Authority (RTA) staff had been walking the route of the proposed Hume Highway bypass of Coolac looking for sites of Aboriginal significance. | |||
Police spokeswoman Sarah Vickery says no-one is showing signs of ill health and it is unclear if it was deliberate. | |||
"We don't know whether they knew the people were there or not so we're appealing for anyone for anyone who might have witnessed the incident or knows anything about a low-flying crop-duster in the area to contact police," she said. | |||
==The Source of the 'Gundagai as Cradle of Reconcilation' Claim== | |||
I just read the Yarri story by Bodie Asimus. | |||
It is not a credible source. | |||
It was written by a school child as part of a competition Lateline/ABC ran. | |||
There are no references re any of the content though there ar emany available. | |||
Bodie Asimus does not live in Gundgaai. They are Sydney people I think. His Mum used to do the PR/promotion for Maccas or something similar. | |||
The story is not listed in the ABC Lateline archives for that date which furhter notes it isnt Lateline content, reported and published by adult ABC journalists, who would be member sof the journalists union and subject to ABC publication rules etc. As such, it wouldnt qualify as acceptable under wik guidelines re its veracity as its content would not have been checked as being within guidelines. | |||
Its simply, an uncited STORY written by a child as part of a competition - not official ABC reoprting. Stories can have any or no level of fact in them. One or two in Gundgaai might try and push a claim re reconcilation as a public relations/town image building exercise, but it is not anythign to do with even minority town thought. | |||
Indeed, Gundagai Shire Council on its Social Plan that is online, in regard to Indigenous people, notes Gundgaai as a tolerant community??? Tolerant? of what and whom? 'Tolderant' doest relaly tally with 'reconcilation'. | |||
It would be better to note here that Gundagai Shire Council on behalf of the community, sees the community as tolerant rather than making a claim as being the cradle of reconcilaltion. | |||
Tolerant? |
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Almost Got Life for Warby Escape
"Daniel Dugurd, a constable for the district of Bong Bong, stood indicted for permitting a prisoner named William Warby lo escape from his custody on the 18th Nov., 1835. It appeared that Warby had been delivered into his custody, under a warrant issued against him by Mr. W. Dutton, J. P., Yass, upon a charge of receiving stolen cattle. The constable having got intoxicated, the prisoner escaped from him. His Honor, in putting the case to the Jury, left it for them to say whether the constable had allowed Warby to escape through wilfulness or negligence. They found him guilty of allowing the escape through negligence :-Sentenced to pay a fine of 40s., and to be imprisoned for two years. The Judge, at the same time, intimated that, had the Jury found him guilty of wilfulness, he would have felt it his duty to have sentenced him to transportation for life." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2206078?
Benjamin Warby
"BENJAMIN WARBY. On Thursday last, Benjamin Warby was placed at the bar of the Supreme Court, charged with receiving a number of cattle knowing them to be stolen, the property of various individuals. This case has excited considerable attention. A brother of the prisoner was tried and convicted on the clearest testimony at the last Session of the Supreme Court, for cattle-stealing; it appeared on his trial that he had possesed himself of immense herds of cattle, (Bens brother William), in a very short time, but that his character had been so good, that; though all were surprised at the rapidity with which his herds increased, yet were they un willing to suspect him of resorting to, cattle stealing. Through the exertions of Henry O'Brien, Esq., J. P., of Yass, the immense extent of cattle-stealing carried on in that part of the country attracted public attention, and suspicion at last fell on Warby, for it was impossible in any other way to account for the rapidity with which he had amassed so much property in the course of a few years. A cattle-stealer who had long been suspected was at last detected, and to save himself from the punishment due to his crimes, he made disclosures to Mr. O'Brien, before whom he was brought for examination which led to the discovery of a system of cattle-stealing, so extensive in its operations, and so well organised in its various ramifications as almost to seem incredible. From the information thus received, it appeared that (William) Warby was deeply concerned in this trade, which he had managed to carry on for several years, with impunity. The apprehension of the fellow who made these disclosures, together with several others who had acted as agents in these, nefarious transactions; and the apprehension created by the active exertions of Mr. O'Brien, had struck terror to the hearts of the cattle-stealers in the neighbour- hood; and when a warrant was, issued for the apprehension of Warby, it was found that he had taken the alarm and had made his escape. It subsequently appeared that he had made his way to Campbelltown, where his parents reside, and in the neighbourhood of Benjamin Warby, the prisoner then before the Court also resides. Apprehensive that his conviction should follow in the event of his being tried, and his property confiscated to the use of the Crown, he resolved to make all he possessed over to his brother, that he might thus prevent it from falling into the hands of the Government; he came accom panied by his brother to Sydney, to consult Mr. Francis Stephen as to the best means of accom plishing their object. By Mr. S.'s direction a bill of sale was drawn out, and signed in the regular manner, disposing of all his stock, farming utensils, &c. to his brother, for and in considera tion of the sum of two thousand five hundred pounds, for which he agreed to accept bills, payable at various times from three months to three years. Having arranged matters thus they returned to Campbelltown, where William Warby was arrested on the warrant for his apprehension, which had been forwarded from Yass. Benjamin Warby was in attendance at the Court House at Yass on the examination before that Bench when his brother was committed, and was warned by Mr. O'Brien to take care how he meddled with his brother's cattle, which would, in the event of his conviction, become the property of the Crown. He replied, that the cattle were now his own, that he taken legal advice on the subject, and was perfectly safe. Mr. O'Brien told him that there were some more approvers expected who had not yet seen the cattle, and would probably be able to identify numbers in the flock; besides he told them the increase of those cattle which were stolen some years ago were still among them, and ought to remain open for the inspection of the public. (Ben)Warby said that he intended to take none but such as bore his brother's brand, and that there was a clause in the bill of sale securing him from the conse quences of taking such as might be stolen. A few days after, Mr. O'Brien hearing that (Ben) Warby was moving all the cattle from his brother's station and sending some to Sydney for sale, rode over to the station, accompanied by some friends, and warned him again of the consequences of persisting in the line of conduct he was pursuing; (Ben) Warby made a similar reply to his former one, and persisted in doing as he pleased with the cattle. Some of those cattle which (Ben) Warby forwarded to Sydney for the purpose of selling, were discoved to be stolen and claimed as the property of Messrs. Hill and Roberts. (Ben) Warby was brought up at the police, office and committed to take his trial for receiving stolen cattle. After a long trial, he was acquitted by the Jury, as it was evident that his intention was not to receive stolen property, but to defraud the Crown. He was remanded to take his trial for another offence, but subsequently the Attorney-General consented to his discharge on his own recognizance. The Attorney-General in consenting to (Ben) Warby's discharge said, that he understood that it was a regular custom when prisoners were committed to take their trial on charges likely to lead to their conviction and transportation, to purchase their property before the trial, in order to prevent its confiscation to the use of the Crown; and he signified his intention of prosecuting to the utmost stretch of his power, in all cases of this nature which came under his cognizance. The Warbys are both natives of the colony; their parents, who reside at Campbelltown, came originally prisoners of the Crown to the colony, but they have always maintained a respectable character; they have gathered together a considerable property. Their mother has given birth to no fewer than twenty-two children; all natives of the colony, and, until the present occurence, all have behaved themselves well. In addition to the two beforementioned, a charge of cattle- stealing is now it is said under investigation against a younger brother." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31718022?searchTerm=warby natives&searchLimits=
Whabys Creek
"Whaby's Creek Sturt's name for the Muttama Creek. Warby had squatted at its junction with the Murrumbidgee, a little north of Gundagai.
Sturt, Charles, Two expeditions into the interior of southern Australia, during the years 1828, 1829, 1830, and 1831 : with observations on the soil, climate, and general resources of the colony of New South Wales,2vols, London, 1833, vol.1, map.
Cumpston, J.H.L., Charles Sturt : His Life and Journeys of Exploration, Melbourne, 1951, p.32." http://www.let.osaka-u.ac.jp/seiyousi/Ghost-Gazetteer/maps/HP/NSW/tumut.htm
Whaby's Creek features also on several old maps such as some versions of the Arrowsmith maps.
Warby's Station
Where today's Mingay is in the previous district of Lachlan. From M.1.831 Surveyor Stapleton 1833, 'To Tumut River and Warby's station', State Records NSW. The Surveyor General's Maps and Plans.
Mrs William Warby
It seems that Mrs William Warby and two children went to VDL also on the 'Siren' to help William serve his 14 year sentence that lasted six years. Those two children may have been born at what later became to be named in 1838, 'Gundagai'. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4175752?
John Warby?
On the 1841 Robert Dixon map, (Map F, 892),there are three Warby names around the junction of the Tumut and Murrumbidgee Rivers. One of these three is for a Run on Adjinbilly Creek where that Creek runs in to the Tumut River. That Run is not at Darbalara or at Mingay. It is east of both Darbalara and Mingay. Dixons map was engraved from the information taken back to Sydney by the explorers and by the Surveyor General Major Mitchell, after his trip through the Gundagai area.
Why
Why does this 'Graeme Healy' dispute content such as Bewuck being the name for the Junction of the Tumut and Murrumbidgee Rivers? That is the local Aboriginal name for that area and its recorded in official documents, in content available online, but also by Miles Franklin the famous Australian author, but is also in recent Aboriginal language dictionaries given to me by a local Aboriginal Elder. Yet this 'Greame Healy' disputes the offical record, a famous author from the same area and Aboriginal people themselves. I also cited the Bewuck content. Placenames are a branch of archaeology. Giving the Aboriginal name for a landscape feature in Gundagai Shire that is cited and is correct should not invite angst from anyone especially in this post 'The Apology to Australian Aboriginal people' era. The other complaints made by 'Graeme Healy' are all as silly such as the entry for the Kimo bunyip etc. That is recorded in correspondence between the famous anthropologist Norman Tindale and by the boss of the Australian National University's History department and I cited it. If 'Graeme Healy' knows better than those two emminent, highly qualified and respected historians then that is sad. There is also a large and fierce bunyip near Bewuck cited by the same sources. The Darling R./Murrumbidgee R Junction would also have the same as it exhibits the same feature at high river flood time. I likely have access to content that 'Graeme Healy' has no access to some of which I have put here. That does not mean though if some people don't know or have no understanding of some ontologies and other things that all the world's information and skills not understood by them, should be denied.
Gary Vines the Coolac Massacre Publisher
It was Gary Vines the Coolac Masscare publisher in recent times. See: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=sr#!topic/ozarch/PBYs7TaotSM
I replied to that slanderous nonsense of Vines on the above URL via his talk page. If he encourages that person who asked him about the Coolac Massacre at OzArch he is encouraging that person to repeat lies that are easily shown to be wrong via the Coolac Archaeological survey documents of which I have copies so will be encouraging that OzArch poster to commit libel/slander of me. Gary Vines and that terrible "physiological" poster above, need to wake up to themselves. Johneen Jones (I am also J Jones believe it or not), - Gundagai.
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