Talk:Brahma Kumaris/Archive 3: Difference between revisions

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	Dear ],		Dear ],

			Here is my second warning to you and thus , I will add the required tag "np3" Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Misplaced Pages has a policy against ]. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be ] from editing by administrators or ] by the ]. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please ] appropriately. Thank you. <!-- Template:Npa3 -->
	Here is my second warning to you and thus , I will add the required tag "np3" {{npa3}}

	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki /WP:NPA#Consequences		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki /WP:NPA#Consequences
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	::::Do to your commencing on '''Personal Attacks''' your reply will be addressed to the community and not to you directly. Debasing the level of interation is unwarranted and frankly below standards of common communication. Trying to suss out wiki members by a hit or miss approach is not too Spiritual'''TalkAbout 02:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)		::::Do to your commencing on '''Personal Attacks''' your reply will be addressed to the community and not to you directly. Debasing the level of interation is unwarranted and frankly below standards of common communication. Trying to suss out wiki members by a hit or miss approach is not too Spiritual'''TalkAbout 02:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


			==Focus on the article==
			I am in no way connected to BKWSU, either pro or con, and I have no interest in changing that. I ''am'' a long-time Wikipedian, and an admin, and I want this page to move toward an acceptable encyclopedia article. The reasons for the NPOV and other tags must be delineated, no matter how blindingly obvious someone might think the reasons are. Those issues must then be addressed, either by proper citations, or by removing unsubstantiated claims from the article. The real-world identity or beliefs of ''any'' of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant. This discussion/talk page is '''not''' the appropriate place to discuss those questions. '''Use this page to discuss the encyclopedia article only.''' –]]– 01:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

			: Thank you for the voice of reason, at last! ] 01:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

			::I have restored the POV tag to the article. Do not remove it until things have been resolved. The other tags may also be restored if specific reasons are shown--but in general, one tag at a time seems sufficient. –]]– 02:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

	:::RHolton, thanks for dropping by and I really appreciate you restoring the NPOV tag. It’s a small step towards fairness, but if it survives the night then it will be a significant one, as it will easily be the most substantial edit to do so other than that made by 244 or Talkabout, since I’ve been looking in.		:::RHolton, thanks for dropping by and I really appreciate you restoring the NPOV tag. It’s a small step towards fairness, but if it survives the night then it will be a significant one, as it will easily be the most substantial edit to do so other than that made by 244 or Talkabout, since I’ve been looking in.
	:::I am not best placed to discuss the article content. I am not a member of the BK nor an ex member. However, my support for the NPOV was because others who were qualified to contest the articles content and attempted to do so, where either stonewalled by proven sockpuppets or had their comments removed from the discussion section and their citation requests pulled down. I have supplied detailed links of examples of where I saw this happening, in a 9 point reply to the user Talkabout in the ''Searchin Man complaint'' section of the Sept – Oct 2006 discussion archive. ] 03:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)		:::I am not best placed to discuss the article content. I am not a member of the BK nor an ex member. However, my support for the NPOV was because others who were qualified to contest the articles content and attempted to do so, where either stonewalled by proven sockpuppets or had their comments removed from the discussion section and their citation requests pulled down. I have supplied detailed links of examples of where I saw this happening, in a 9 point reply to the user Talkabout in the ''Searchin Man complaint'' section of the Sept – Oct 2006 discussion archive. ] 03:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

			== NPOVs for Discussion ==

			OK. NPOVs for Discussions. One at a time. No more personal attacks. No more crapflood. No more discussing the discussion. If you use three equal signs before and after a topic, like this "<nowiki>===Topic===</nowiki>", we can create a manageable sub-list of points to discuss. My suggestion is that we work to create the list first, have a little cooling off period, order them according to the article and then discuss them. New issues arising can be discussed in new headlines. Alternatively, we can work our way down the page paragraph by paragraph.

			I would like to raise the the issue of membership, financial status and charitable giving, perhaps the later the UN relationship. I hope that BKs will come forward with the pre-requisite figures. ] 03:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

			Please add your NPOV points below ;

			----

			===Financial status and charitable giving===
			Both figures from all zones please, Americas, India, Australasia, Africa etc.] 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

			===Membership figures===
			I have in my possession a letter from the BKWSU stating that they have "no membership" and merely operate an "open door" policy. (Pressumably open door unless you are a PBK). Alternatively BK administrative head Jank Kripalani states they will have 900,000 followers this year. Across the internet figure vary widely from 450,000 to 800,000 but may of these would appear undated or out of date. Obviously, big numbers constitute good PR, "900,000 people could not be wrong" so what is the official figure.

			A question to ask here is, what constitutes a "member"? How long does it take to become a BK? How and at what point is one recognized as a BK? And does one ex-communicate oneself by leaving as the average lifespan is said to be about 5 years? Do only a whiteclad senior BKs or centre-in-charges count? Or reliable, 7 day a week Amrit vela and Morning Class attendee. How do they calculate their laity and what status do they have?

			The organization is not forthcoming in these figures nor how they are culculated and so I think we should remove any claims in size. Likewise, how many centers to they have? I can only see tens listed on the internet and yet they claim thousands. This discrepancy is too large to be scientific. So can BKs accurately qualify the numbers of dedicated centers and separate them from the number of "Gita Pathshalas", or family homes used as makeshift centers? Again, actual figures rather than PR ] 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

			===New Religious Movement or Cult?===
			I'd say '']'' is problematic, as it almost always has negative connotations. As the Cult article says, no group ever calls itself a cult, only the group's opponents. On the other hand, I'm not particularly satisfied with ]. Any other suggestions? –]]– 04:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
			:Its very difficult and it throws us into the very deep end of the academic and politic thought on the matter. I would say that not only opponents use the term cult. Indeed, Dr Eileen Barker who must been seen as a leading proponent, if not initiator, of the term "New Religious Movement" also uses the term cult and admits its interusability. Cult really has a neutral meaning, devalued by sensationalistic journalism and oppositional activists and its hard consonants.

			:We also find ourselves at odd between the camps of sociology and psychology. If psychology identifies a series of psychologically coercive practises, and a NRM uses most or all of them, at what point does it cross the line? For example, given this list; I would say that the BKWSU uses most. '''The compromise would be to say, "of which some/many see as a cult", or "of which uses practises some/many/psychologists identify as coercive and used by groups identified as a cult.'''

			:The BKWSU's own position is that they are not a cult; they are the one, only, true religion and the inspiration of all other religions and God comes to speak to them only. Every other religion is impure. Being Millenarianistic, believing in an immanent "Destruction" of the world, this immediately, in my opinion puts them in the cultic "stage" in their development. However, if we look at the Jehovah Witness, Seventh day Adventists, Mormons etc, we see how groups evolve from cultic stages, to NRM, to established minor religions usually with a re-writing of their credo, as the BKWSU is engaged in. As an aside perhaps it is time for academia to view cult as a stage in social and religious development development rather than an end point of definition for all such groups. See reference to average lifespan above and in cited documentation. ] 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

			::I think both terms should be avoided, primarily because they evoke negativity (per the previous statement).
			::A broader reference term such as 'doctrine', maybe more suitable as it doesn't narrowly focus on religion (both so called new and old) and it provides an even plateau for comparison with all schools of thought. ] 18:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

			:::The problem is we are not documenting merely the BKWSU Doctine, we are documenting the BKWSU as a whole. If there was a good argument or argeement to split the topic into doctrine from the historical social movement, then fine. NRM is a positive term.
			::: Can we start by comparing BK lifestyle against academically accepted cult or psychologically coersive techniques given above? I would say that the doctine is operated within a cultic model, e.g. the secrecy surrounding the Murli teaching, the division between the "chosen few" Brahmins and the impure untouchables. Thank you. ] 18:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

			::::],
			::::As to ], ] or ], I would offer that the ] is more a ] in my humble opinion.
			::::*They control through tenets ones toileting.....if there is no shower well you best not have that bowel movement. This instruction is even imposed upon children.
			::::*One cannot enter areas of a centre unless they "meet higher requirements of being '''pure for six months''' and have showered". Most students do not realise this; it is only once you enter deeper that this is known.
			::::*One must detach (have no contact) from ones family and friends.
			::::*One must do service to ones family and friends: offer the knowledge and try and convert them.
			::::*One must detach from ones children, as they are an obstacle to higher "spirituality".
			::::*One must must not eat food prepared by non-BKs including ones own mother. Their food is impure, they are impure.
			::::*One must follow a BK diet, often not very nutritional but by BK standard "Pure".
			::::*One must not marry, one must be celibate.
			::::*There is to be no sex, not even within marriage.

			::::These are just some of the few things they control in members/followers lives via tenets/beliefs. I would say it is more a ] as the controlling factor is very clear. Members of such a ], ], ] will not see themselves as such, many suffer greatly once they realise they have been in a ] and there have been many suicides and many that have contemplated suicide post Gyan experience.
			::::In fact the ] tries to state that they are not a religion so as to bring folks in with promises of “meditation”, “stress reduction”, “cultural understanding” and even “weight loss”. Oh, and '''there isn’t any “University”''', unless the location is in the subtle region (heaven to non-BKs). PEACE TalkAbout], 20:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

			:Actually, the best solution would be to find a reliable reference (not BK or former BK) that talks about BKWSU and quote them. We could also mention how BK's refer to themselves, with an appropriate reference.–]]– 23:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

			::],

			::Below please find the quote from the Spanish Academic Report under lists of cults. This is referenced rather then the mention of the French Government report due to its academic value, in-depth analysis and conclusions about psychological outcomes. Below is the link to the French report as well.
			::Enumeration of the followers of sects in 1995 by UNADFI Follers
			::Cults in France
			::• Raja Yoga or Spiritual Organization of Brahma Kumaris 200

			::''List of Cults
			::'''Characteristics, functionalism and psychological consequences of the cult phenomenon'''
			::'''Santa Cruz de Tenerife Official College of Psychology'''
			::'''Groups of Risk and Dangerous Cults'''
			::Eloy Rodriguez-Valdes, Psychologist and Sexologist''


			::'''In 1989 – The Spanish Parliamentary Commission: There was a commission for the Study, not investigations. None of the proposed conclusions by the Parliamentarian Commission has been put into practice.'''

			::'''1995. - The National Assembly of France: One of the best informative /reports (Commission of Investigations), Profound and strongly made until this moment at present on the phenomenon of Cults. Realised by the Deputy J Guyard. It denounces a grand number/quantity of groups as destructive cults. In them, all are included the following:'''
			::* Anthropos (Ágora)
			::* Asociación L.J. Engelmajet (El Patriarca)
			::* '''Brahma Kumaris (Universidad Espiritual Internacional)'''
			::* etc.

			::''Características, funcionamiento y consecuencias psicosociales del fenómeno sectario.''
			::Colegio Oficial de Psicólogos de Santa Cruz de Tenerife
			::SECTAS DESTRUCTIVAS Y GRUPOS DE RIESGO
			::Eloy Rodríguez-Valdés
			::Psicólogo-Sexólogo''

			::1989.- Comisión del Parlamento Español: Se crea una comisión de ESTUDIO, no de INVESTIGACIÓN. Ninguna de las conclusiones propuestas por la Comisión Parlamentaria se ha llevado todavía a la práctica
			::1995. - Asamblea Nacional Francesa: Uno de los mejores informes (comisión de investigación), más fuerte y profundo hecho hasta el momento presente sobre el fenómeno sectario. Realizado por el diputado J. Guyard. Se denuncia a una gran cantidad de grupos como sectas destructivas. Entre todos ellos cabe destacar:
			::* Anthropos (Ágora)
			::* Asociación L.J. Engelmajet (El Patriarca)
			::* Brahma Kumaris (Universidad Espiritual Internacional)
			::* etc.” PEACE ] 02:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


			:::On the basis of the examples of cult-like behavior listed above, you can count me amongst the apologists and I would argue NRM. I do not think that they are particularly unique nor accurate either in detail or understanding. Some are merely a Western misinterpretation of cultural practises widespread in the Middle and Far East, i.e. food politics of the Indian caste system, toileting in tropical climates, monastic traditions all be they practised within domestic environments.

			:::The third party sources are quite sound. The problem with falling back on other academic sources in that we fall back on the divides between apologists, apostates and the fads and fashions of academic funding. Religious sociology is a small field in which one man's funding application is a cult, when anothers is an NRM. Cult's political value has fallen whilst NRM's has had a minor revival and is sustaining itself. Just.

			:::What is the difference between a minority religion and a cult? Just being weird doesn't make the BKWSU a cult. I have given a reference of psychologically coercive techniques from a regular expert witness above. What raises the cult question for me would be that within the framework of an absolute Millenarianism, the prediction of an immanent End of the World any day;

			::*Undue influence: mind control - '''tick'''
			::*Charismatic Leadership: Claiming divinity or special knowledge and demanding unquestioning obedience with power and privilege. Leadership may consist of one individual or a small core of leaders - '''tick'''
			::*Deception: Recruiting and fundraising with hidden objectives and without full disclosure; use of front groups - '''tick'''
			::*Exclusivity: Secretiveness or vagueness by followers regarding activities and beliefs - '''tick'''
			::*Alienation: Separation from family, friends and society, a change in values and substitution of the cult as the new family; evidence of subtle or abrupt personality changes - '''tick''' (which is what the author above is stating)
			::*Exploitation: Can be financial, physical, or psychological; pressure to give money, to spend a great deal on courses or "service" projects, inappropriate sexual activities even child abuse - '''tick'''
			::*Totalitarian Worldview (we/they syndrome): Effecting dependence, promoting goals of the group over the individual and approving unethical behavior while claiming goodness - '''tick'''

			::'''The BKWSU is certainly not a sect or sub-sect or another religion either by the definition of its channelled teachings nor its own beliefs about itself.''' According to its own beliefs of a 5,000 Year repeating Cycle of time, they are the foundation of all other religions, e.g. Christ will come to them now and study only to come back in 3,000 years to teach Christianity again after their heaven on earth is over. ] 21:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

			===Sevak Ram's role in the founding of the movement===
			One important issue we have to resolve is the role of Sevak Ram, Lekhraj Kirpalani's business partner, in the establishment of the Om Mandali "group", see . The author is the said piece is or was a BK and so there have to be some grounds for inclusion. Would any BK care to offer the official history of his role? ] 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)



			==WikiProject India==
			A bot has identified this is an article from inclusion in the ] project and as "stub class". I have removed the tab as it was not introduced nor discussed and the topic article is certainly by no means a stub. This raises valid discussion of its own. Personally, I see the BKWSU as an international and not merely Indian organzation.

			This could conceivably again lead to forks in the article. ] 18:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

			:I've restored the ] tag, though I've rated the article as a "B" class (I wonder how the 'bot decided this was a stub?). These sort of tags get applied to articles all the time, usually without discussion; we should feel free to alter the rating though, and I'm open to discussion on the "B" I gave the article. By the way, having a WikiProject_India tag doesn't (to me) suggest that the article is ''only'' relevant to India. –]]– 23:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

			==Talk page etiquette==
			Please, everyone be careful when you edit this page. In very recent history, an editor inadventantly obliterated another editor's post (which was later restored by a third editor). Serious misunderstandings begin this way.

			Also, when archiving previous content, always archive in context. Don't pull pieces of a section out of the main talk page to the archive. Do the whole thing or nothing.

			I'd also beg people to restrain themselves from messing with other people's posts, even if you're just wikifying or fixing a spelling error. If you ''must'' do this sort of editing, make sure that you do not in any way alter the content of the post, and do this sort of editing separate from adding your own contents. The problem is that these kind of edits make it almost impossible for someone attempting to follow the flow of conversation in the history.

			Finally, please retain the posting order: add your posts to the bottom of the section, and if you're creating a new section, add it to the bottom of the page. Yes, there are ''rare'' exceptions, but let's keep them rare.

			Thanks!
			:–]]– 23:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

			==Let us focus in the article==
			Dear Souls,
			Om Shanti! Hope you are doing well these days… I would like to acknowledge the timely input of RHolton; his input allowed some of us to smell
			the roses, go to the beach, have regular meditations, etc… Things are great when you do not have to revert a long time expected and well deserved NPOV in this article. Thanks! Thus, now is about the article, “Past is Past…” Here I go...:

			Let me start with this very important Misplaced Pages policy: '''VERIFIABILITY'''

			1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources.
			2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.
			3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

			'''Please keep in mind point #3.'''

			Now, let me dissect the article paragraph by paragraph. As we move along, besides the "verifiability" policy; I am sure other policies will come up, which I will make sure to provide.

			The first paragraph of the NPOV article in question: “Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya or the BKWSU, is a new religious movement that began in 1937 based on the experiences of Lekhraj Kripalani in Sindh (present day Pakistan).The BKWSU teaches of a form of meditation involving spirit channeling it calls Raja Yoga, in confusion with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga, through Raja Yoga Centers worldwide."

			'''Questions:'''

			1) What is the source for the above mentioned statement?

			The source may need to be academic, researched by holders of graduate degrees. Would you kindly point out your source? Please check this page out:

			http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Finding_good_sources. Please, if applicable provide the ISBN number since readers would like to
			double check the source.

			2)Brahma Kumaris is being labeled as "]" in the article. Sources? please.

			3) ] pointed out in RHolton’s talk page the following: “We are going to have problems Mr Holton because you have admin status to throw around but your opening comments are factually inaccurate. The BKWSU was not founded in 1937, the precursor Om Mandali was World Renewal Trust followed. The "University" is not real university and as such not founded, it might be misleading. Additionally, the founder was not Brahma Baba but Shiva Baba. And the citation are clearly available and non-contentious. So caution please if we are to be accurate. ] 18:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)”

			Accordingly, why is not “ShivBaba” in this paragraph? ("the founder was not Brahma Baba but Shiva Baba.") Is 1937 the real date? Sources, please...sources.

			4) What is the source for the "The BKWSU teaches of a form of meditation involving spirit channeling it calls Raja Yoga, in confusion with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga, through Raja Yoga Centers worldwide."? I am really curious about the source of this excerpt.Please provide the references. As an aside, I just want to comment that I do not foresee any problems with Mr. Holton’s input, on the contrary; his impartial input is truly appreciated.

			Note: If there are no '''verifiable''' references for these points, the paragraph must be deleted from Misplaced Pages.

			]


			: One of the problems in your approach Luis is that you ignore what you do not like to see or cannot win, go for the personal attack, adopt a full on and aggressive distortions to the facts without addressing the multifold citations that have already been offered to you. As you see above, we have the '''"The Spanish Parliamentary Commission"''' and '''"The National Assembly of France"''' both label the BKWSU a ''']'''. Is that not satisfactory? Are we happy therefore to label the BKWSU a cult instead of a ]? I am actually happy either way but NRM is more diplomatic.'''

			: Sources do not need to be academic, for example, an article on Christianity can perfectly well quote the Bible as source . An article on the BKWSU can reference the Murlis or its own materials. The guidelines state "easily verifiable", so, for examples, if I state that the '''BKWSU has been accuse of torture and kidnapping''' and then offer the reference of the Deccan Times that is perfectly adequate. If I give an actual date of a Sakar Murli, any interested researcher can attended their local BK Raja Yoga center and request a copy of it to check or the see the increasing number published on the internet, e.g. .

			:* With reference to ''']''', the easily verifiable source is the BKWSU's own teaching manual mid to late-1990s which has been reproduced in full here, . In which it is clearly stated by the BKWSU that the method by which so-called Shiva talks through Lekhraj Kirpalani is spirit channelling. Just out of interest, what else would you call it?

			:*With reference to the '''various stages and dates of founding''' in the history of the BKWSU, I am very happy for you to provide your detailed information. The legal entities, e.g. Word Renewal Trust, might be the most easily referenced and there is going to be debate as to when the spirit Shiva established what when as many BKs will argue that it was actually done via Lekhraj Kirpalani's business partner Sevak Ram through which Shiva explained to Kirpalani what was happening. As the early gatherings were informal, I think it will be very hard to put precise dates but am surprised the dates of the initial possession were not recorded.

			:Otherwise, what do you want to do ... erase the entire article? But whilst you are here, please address the issues raise above re '''Sevak Ram, finances, membership and centers'''. Thanks ] 01:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


			Dear .244,
			I am glad to see that my post is complete…
			Now, let me address your points:
			Please read the post in Spanish which TalkAbout referred to: what I read there is not the word “cult.” I read “sect” Do you see that? (In Spanish both words are different) The note posted had Eloy Rodríguez-Valdés as the author. He is a psychologist. Do you believe that a Psychologist is in fact authoritative to write about religion and spiritual movements? Please follow this wikipedia rule: “published by reputable sources.”
			Since you mentioned about Christianity, here is a link to the wikipedia site:
			http://en.wikipedia.org/Christianity
			Please note the neat references.
			As far as “sect, “ cult” or “NRM” what should be posted in the wikipedia article is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Cult.2C_sect
			Then, yes.. I agree with you…According to Misplaced Pages (see link) the term NRM should be used, and “sect and cult” avoided. See? That is reasonable. I am helping you with this source to support the addition of NRM in the article.
			Of course, that is not how Brahmins see ourselves, or some else but since we are in WIKIPEDIA, we need to follow WIKIPEDIA conventions.

			Please take a minute to read the following: “Misplaced Pages articles include material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. That is, we report what other reliable sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate. In order to avoid doing original research, and in order to help improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles, it is essential that any primary-source material, as well as any generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data, has been published by a reputable third-party publication (that is, not self-published) that is available to readers either from a website (other than Misplaced Pages) or through a public library. '''It is very important to cite sources appropriately, so that readers can find your source and can satisfy themselves that Misplaced Pages has used the source correctly.”''' From: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_original_research

			When writing an article, it is very important to know what is a “primary source, ” “secondary source, “ etc. An on-line newspaper it is not a “reputable source.” ''unless'' it is in the same category as the “New York Times.”
			See this article in the same newspaper you used in your link: http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/oct172006/update8203720061017.asp See their use of proper English, grammar, etc. This is far from “reputable.” As far as the article you linked, note that is one sided (Bias). We do not know the comments or arguments of the other side.

			Let me reiterate:
			''Reliable publications'': “Reliable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher with a good reputation for scholarly publications.”
			In you example about Christianity, the sources are taken from “known academic publishing house or university press.”
			When you say: “Sources do not need to be academic.” That is true; however they must be reliable. Your newspaper link nor the site BKINFO fulfill this requirement. The same holds true for any publication made by a Brahma Kumaris publication. You cannot use that as “reliable” source because it does not fit the concept of “reliable publication” according to Misplaced Pages. Please see the link above. You cannot “just give a date of a sakar murli” you need to quote that from a reliable source. See that?
			With that in mind, you have not disclosed any “reliable” source for that first paragraph.
			In short: Please comply with this requirement. Use a scholar or a reputable source to back up your statements. Do not use a Brahma Kumaris publication because it does not comply with the concept of reliability stated by Misplaced Pages.

			You wrote: “Otherwise, what do you want to do ... erase the entire article? But whilst you are here, please address the issues raise above re Sevak Ram, finances, membership and centers. “ I do not pretend to erase the whole article, but if you do not present any reliable sources, according to wikipedia we will need to consider that. As far as the other issues, if they are in the current article, they may need to be addressed at the proper time. Please do not try to modify or add any more information to the current article.

			Best Wishes,
			]


			: '''So you are saying to us that the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is not a proper academic institute like any other University and that dcuments or papers produced by its senior faculty members are not permissable? That all and any publications from it are unreliable by Wiki standards?'''

			: That is a strange position for you to take and for me to argue against. If it is a University, then surely its materials are perfectly adequate? Please confirm the BKWSU's status in your mind and why you would exclude materials from it in this article.

			: That is a bit like the ]s arguing, "you cant write an article on ] if it includes materials ] produced". If we look at the ] article, we discover that such materials are perfectly acceptable, and it is not even a University. ] 19:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


			:: Dear .244,

			:: Let me write the WIKIPEDIA policy one more time: '''Reliable publications:''' “Reliable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher with a good reputation for scholarly publications.” This is self-explanatory. BK press is not included here. See that?
			::Brahma Kumaris is a Spiritual University. It is not an academic university. University is derived from the Latin universitas, meaning corporation (since the first medieval European universities were often groups of scholars-for-hire). In BK we have seniors who have achieved a high degree of spiritual awareness, thus our "faculty." Even though, someone may have several academic degrees, he/she may not fit that qualification (spiritual awaraness). Please do not argue against.. just provide the reliable publications as established by WIKIPEDIA...and remember those are not my rules, those are WIKIPEDIA's.

			:: BTW, Since you have mentioned scientology, here is a thread in the scientology talk page FYI:
			:: '''"Misplaced Pages is real clear on that. First everything has to be "published by a reliable source" or it can't be included WP:V. This is to keep out original research, ideas posted on bulletin boards, blogs, newsgroups, rumors, and such. Without that, Misplaced Pages would soon be glutted with all kinds of advertisements and stuff which was not at all encyclopedic. Its got to be good, reliable, published information. Well, the Scientology data is something like 40 million words. But you are hard pressed to find good, reliable publication against it. And critical stuff is mostly not about aspects of Scientology but more like, "critical to the reputation of Scientology". I've yet to find a critical, well reasoned, article about Scientology Technology. Terryeo 09:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)"'''

			::As you can see, I am not the only one asking for "RELIABLE SOURCES." Please comply.

			::Best Wishes, ]


			:::And direct scriptural quotations, I see no problems in that?

			:::The problem with your responses is that your and the other's agenda is always too apparently and you keep chosing to ignore what you dont like to read. Were you involved with Scientology before Gyan because what the BKWSU team working on this is up to is just like Roll Back, Black PR Rundown and Truth Rundown Training.

			:::Quoting Misplaced Pages legalese is like quote the Bible as a defense. Quoting Scientologists as witnesses in defense ... !

			:::In reply to the use of BKWSU materials, that would include training manuals, Murlis, Jagdish Chander's work and BK websites, I offer from ];

			:::''Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources of information so long as:''
			:::*'' It is relevant to the organization's notability;''
			:::* ''It is not contentious;''
			:::*'' It is not unduly self-serving;''
			:::*'' It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject;''
			:::* ''There is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it.''

			:::'''re Cult status''', those reports above translates as "cult". If a respected national assembly finds a group to be a Cult, then it is worth nothing. On the basis of what you have written, I submit that we really have to note the BKWSU's fraudulent representation of itself as a University, although I accept increasingly BK members are becoming "scholars-for-hire", and its cult-like nature in the article as a whole. Do you have any citations from reliable sources that have investigated the BKWSU and found it not to be a cult? What else could it be? I am not say that it does not do good, we should document that too but it is for you to provide verifiable sources. ] 23:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


			Dear .244,
			I am glad you are finally using wikipedia to support your claims!
			Please do not start name calling and going into personal attacks. Remember this line you wrote:''"The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant."'' You are the main editor of this article, thus you need to provide reliable support when requested. Otherwise, anyone can post whatever they want about BK. See that? Just concentrate on the article. OK?
			This is going to be a long one, my friend. But I needed extra time to obtain
			all the info you requested. I hope you will do the same for me when I request
			a "reliable source."

			If you read in the same policy you quoted (verifiability) under “sources of dubious reliability” you will find the following:
			http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Verifiability&diff=81858242&oldid=81856805
			In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact- checking facilities or editorial oversight.
			Sometimes a statement can only be found in a publication of dubious reliability, such as a tabloid newspaper. If the statement is relatively unimportant, remove it. If it is important enough to keep, attribute it to the source in question. For example: "According to the British tabloid newspaper ''The Sun''..."
			'''As a rule of thumb, sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about themselves.'''
			] However, even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – '''repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources.'''
			October 16, 2006.

			I am showing this link from October 16 so, readers can note the changes that have happened since then (a few days ago.)

			There are 3 problems with your (.244) citing of this policy:

			1)The sources that you mentioned qualify under “sources of dubious reliability” since as I mentioned before, they do not belong to the category of “reliable sources” until it is quoted by a reliable publication. Therefore, these “dubious sources” can only qualify as sources for this article '''IF they are being used in an article about “ourselves”''' thus, the author(s) of this article are far from qualifying of being considered “ourselves.” As a matter of fact, it is an article written by a group (or individual) against “ourselves.” (The BK) Therefore, your claim does not fit this rule.

			2)Quote:“Even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources.”
			Claims that main editors are making in this article clearly fit under the “libellous” label (harmful and often untrue.) You cannot use those articles to do that. UNLESS you have a reliable source.. a “credible source.” (which you don’t.)

			3) Note that out of all the bullets you pointed out to support your use of “dubious sources” the following do not apply:
			*It is not contentious: Clearly what the editors wrote in this article is contentious.(As explained above.)
			*It is not unduly self-serving: Far from true. It is completely the opposite, the statements in the article, the written form of it have a high tendency to discredit the BK. The use of “weasel” words to discredit the BK movement is high.
			*It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject: This article has been referring to several other groups and how BKs are the “bad guys” when dealing with them. Your links about obscure newspapers and bias websites lacking reliability are the proof for that.
			*There is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it: Proof? How?

			Therefore, please use reliable sources. Otherwise this article lacks validity.

			I would like to note the style in writing this paper. It is a standard on all good articles to use citations. You can use the Harvard style for instance. It is not just a matter of saying: “I used so and so” cite his work accordingly and show us where it belongs in the article. Anyone can write footnotes with different things, but they have to match, so a reader can check the accuracy of your writing. As it stands right now, we see plenty of books and websites, but the article does not show at which point they were cited. You need to do this, however; it will be a waste of your time (but a good typing practice, nevertheless)unless you produce “reliable sources.”
			Let me give you a link that you can use for citing sources:
			http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:CITE

			Now, I see that you are adding references and there is a new user who is making “small, almost unnoticeable changes in the article,” “wikifying it.”
			Old habits are hard to break... Thank you wikipedia for the back up copies.

			Also, let’s get the tasks straight here. It is your job to provide sources. Why? Because you are the main editor of this article. That is not my job. If you feel with the authority to write about an institution which you do not belong to and whithout a doubt feel animosity towards it, then the very least you can do is to show reliable sources for your writings.

			Nevertheless, to set the example about “doing your work the right way” let me share with you this scholar source: '''Richard Barz, Ph.D.'''
			Professor Barz has visited Mt. Abu in 1967 and 1984.
			You can see his qualifications and expertise in the link below
			.244…'''''PLEASE: this is what you need to provide: “reliable sources.”''
			'''
			http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/index.php/Dr_Richard_Barz

			I contacted him and below you will see his reply in relation with the “cult” word that you seem to enjoy so much and use without caution: (I had changed our email addresses, in order to avoid spamming, but I know you can get that info, right?)

			---------- Forwarded message ----------
			From: Richard Barz <richard.barzAT??.edu.au>
			Date: Oct 18, 2006 2:04 AM
			Subject: Re: About Brahma Kumaris
			To: Luis Alberto Riveros <riveros??ATsomesubtleplace.com>
			'''My view is that the Brahma Kumaris are a religion. I don't feel that
			'''they are a sect as that would imply that they are an offshoot of some'''
			'''other religion, which is not the case. I wouldn't use the term cult for'''
			'''them as it has a feeling of secretiveness which does not apply. The'''
			'''Brahma Kumaris could also be called a new religious movement since they'''
			'''are a modern form of a Hindu religious tradition that is very ancient.''''''

			Some of the articles that Professor Barz has written about BK:
			* /Brahma-Kumari's: vrouwen aan de (spirituele) macht/ in
			Inforient Richard K.Barzand H.Pauwels, 8:1, pp.17-24 (1988)
			* /A reinterpretation of Vaishnava theology: from the pushtimarg to
			the Brahma Kumaris/
			* /In Devotional literature in South Asia ed.
			R.S. McGregor, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, pp.298-313 (1992)

			Article in Devotional literature in South Asia ed. R.S. McGregor
			includes a good bibliography of materials on the Brahma Kumaris up to 1992.

			http://prp.contentdirections.com/mr/cupress.jsp/doi=10.2277/0521413117

			You can read his scholar article about BK in this book.
			.244, to be an editor requires some work. It is not a matter to throw in whatever comes to mind.

			Last but not least… hope you are fluent in Spanish before you pretend to make me believe that “cult” and “sect” are the same. Keep in mind that there is a strong bias in Spanish speaking countries. The religion there is Catholicism. Anything else is usually labeled as “cult”, “sect”, “nrm” etc.

			Therefore, as it stands: The first paragraph of the article has the necessary support to name BK as either NRM (according to Misplaced Pages) or a “Religion” according to Professor Barz expert opinion in this subject. Anything else in that paragraph does not have any reliability as of today. If you provide the “reliable sources” then we can move on into the second paragraph. Please do not delay, I am eagerly looking forward to it.

			Best Wishes .244,

			]

			== Professor Richard Barz and the use of Psychologist to determine Psychologically Coercive Techniques ==

			Luis,

			no, I am afraid the first paragraph is not done. We still have governmental assemblies stating "Cult". Additionally, you are ignoring the BKWSU's own published literature both in terms of publicity, teaching manuals and Murlis which are both entirely supportative of the statements in the first paragraph, which the BKWSU finds credible and are fine by wikipedia standards. If your argument is to disclaim what the BKWSU states about its own activities, then you will have to produce citations that counteracts the BKWSU's and God Shiva's own claims.

			'''If you want to go down in the history of the 5,000 Year Kalpa as the BK Brahmin that argued that BK Raja Yoga was a "Vaishnavite religion", that is your business. For the sake of our BK Brahmin audience (this wont make much sense to non-BK Brahmins), you as a BK are saying that "Gyan" is Vaishnavite "Bhakti" because a "Kali Yugi Shudra" said so!?!''' (Apologies to the good Professor but please appreciate I am using BK terms to illustrate here not my own).

			I will state that the protection of "God's Words" channelled through the medium of Lekhraj Kirpalani, called the Sakar Murlis, behind pgp encryption and password protected websites is secretive and the re-editing of the same manipulative of the truth. I am interested in Professor Richard Barz's speciality in the Vallabhacarya sect but he must not be aware of the above. I understand how, as Lekhraj Kirpalani was related to it (a fact that I was challenged on by a BK), it might be possible to misconstrue a connection, but I find it hard to see how any religion that "worships" Shiva can be called Vaishnavite. Surely, it should be Neo-Shiavite? Shiva is not an incarnation of Vishnu, and I do not need citations to back that up! This brings his understanding, or exposure, into doubt. How much access he has been allowed to the original Murlis, is he aware of the child sex abuse cover up, the violent persecution of the PBKs, the failed prediction of Destruction in 1976 and so on?

			As regards BK Raja Yoga being Bhakti; unfortunately, Professor Barz is entirely contradict by God Shiva in the Sakar Murli and numerous BKWSU published books referenced on the topic page. So which takes precedence? As a BK, you are essentially contradicting the BKWSU own publilcations and falsifying what you know to be true.

			'''As far as the use of psychologist to determine psychologically coercive techniques in religions - whether new, orthodox or cultic - who else would you use? A theologian cannot be expect to be expert in psychologically damaging practises. A practitioner or recruiter even less so.'''

			BTW, personal emails of this sort are not acceptable by Wiki standards. But, by all means, if you want me to start emailing around for a second opinion, I will do so. Thanks. ] 05:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

			== Confusion between classical or Patanjali's Raja Yoga and BK Raja Yoga ==

			For those not expert in yoga, a quick look at the Misplaced Pages ] article will help you appreciate what Classical Raja Yoga is. A yoga form with over 2,000 years of tradition, it is clearly entirely different from BK Raja Yoga. That the two are named the same is confusing, perhaps deliberately so on behalf of the BKWSU.

			The actual date of inception of BK Raja Yoga is not know but it must be after 1936-1937 when the ] ] named after the ] ] ] first ]ed Lekhraj Kirpalani and started ] his "Knowledge" through him. It is recorded that in the early days of the Om Mandali/BKWSU Lekhraj Kirpalani was not the medium through which the knowledge was channelled and it is also recorded in the Sakar Murlis and BKWSU publications that the "Knowledge" and practise was not delivered complete. Therefore we cannot say exactly when BK Raja Yoga was first taught but we can safely say it was only in the last 70 years at the very most and most likely much less.

			Increasingly, the BKWSU and senior faculty members of the BKWSU, such as Brian Bacon and Mike George of Oxford Leadership Academy. are referring to BK Raja Yoga as being "ancient" or "centuries old", e.g. at the 2004 Parliament of the World's Religions the BKWSU Erik Larson, Dadi Janki, Jayanti Kripalani did talk on "The Wisdom of Listening to God: Ancient Raja Yoga of Brahma Kumaris" or "Oxford Leadership Development Programme Learn the art of reflective inquiry, a deep reflection process based on the centuries old practice of Raja Yoga Meditation." Now, this I submit is both clearly untrue and that it does not require an expert academic opinion to point out the difference. Indeed, if a specialist opinion is required then it ought to come from a recognized yogic authority such as Vivekananda. Personally, I do not see anything contentious in this.

			BK Raja Yoga is new, less than 70 years old not centuries. ]'s ] ] or Classic ] is an enitrely different practise and more than 2,000 years old. I state that it is a confusion that needs to be clearly stated at the beginning of this article and so the statement as given does not need changed. If BK do wish to remove the statement, are they also going to assert that BK Raja Yoga is the original, Classical or Ancient Raja Yoga on the ] page as well?

			Thank you. ] 06:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

			: such intense debating seems to be going on, it is only and article!!! what's the big deal, why shouldn't people be able to read this stuff......this is a free world and Wiki is about expressing that, surely if the the Gyan of bks is the truth then the philosophy of the cycle cannot be stopped and will be fulfilled as it has been every 5000 years......it seems strange to me that bks take all this as such a threat ] 11:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

			== User: 195.82.106.244 last chance to offer reliable sources ==

			Dear .244,
			Thank you for your quick reply.
			Let me be clear this time (perhaps I wasn’t before.)
			'''You either provide reliable sources or that first paragraph will be erased, according to Misplaced Pages rules.''' Before doing that, I will post a paragraph considering the evidence that we already have to replace the current one. I believe 3 days for you to produce reliable evidence for that first paragraph is plenty of time. If you did not have it and wrote the paragraph anyway, then … you don’t have evidence, don't waste our time here. As simple as that.

			.244 we all know how easy it is for you to write and send emails around. Just remember to post a website with '''the qualifications of your source''' so I can double check it. You know I will.

			Please let us know about your qualifications before you try to argue here about religious studies and research. Show proof of that.
			Let me copy again what you wrote: '''"The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant."''' That applies to you too. Do not forget that.

			Oh yeah.. I was forgetting about your friend, Green108… What can I say… If you do not like this debate.. just don’t look at it. If you think this article is not a big deal, good for you.. Others and myself included, do not think so.
			On the same token, If you like this article, then .. this is your chance to submit reliable sources so it can stay here.

			As always the very best for both of you, ] 13:55, 21 October 2006

			: why do you say your friend green108, and 'what can I say'.................why do you have opinions of me, i don't know who you are, i just logged on here and saw the debate had gone off at a strange and very tense angle and so asked a question, hoping to lighten the mood a bit. ] 20:33, 22 October 2006

			:: Dear Green108,
			:: Here is why:
			:: Please look at the archives. July 2006 is a good date.
			:: Any luck with those "reliable sources"? That will lighten up the mood quite a bit.
			:: Best Wishes, ] 21:36, 22 October 2006

			::: Luis,

			::: I am sorry but I have been too busy working on an information pack for academics and educational institutes to have answered you sooner.

			::: As far as citations, why bother putting up any pretense of a conversion. You have never been interested in listening. I am perfectly happy with the references and citations as given, including the BKWSU own publications and the scriptural references as given by the Sakar Murlis which contain all the knowledge.

			::: Are you going to condescend to a response as to why they are insufficient? 3 Days should be fine for me to complete this .info pack and start mailing them out. ] 06:43, 23 October 2006

			==Cult status, Jews' Karma, Earth's Axis tilting and Shiva entering Lekhraj Kirpalani==

			OK. I have a citation from The London Observer dated September 1996. The London Observer is a Conservative broadsheet newspaper of public record, first published on 4 December 1791, and easily comparable to the New York Times that published the recent Misplaced Pages article. Indeed the British media, whether right or left wing, is general trusted more worldwide for its impartiality and detachment.

			The London Observer records such BKWSU beliefs such as "'''the axis of the shall straighten from its angle of 23.5 degrees to the truly vertical'''", "'''The continents shall come together once more'''" and "There will be springtime all year long ... a paradise of endless happiness" following Destruction.

			It goes on to state that the "'''The Brahma Kumaris emerged in India in 1937, when a wealthy Hindu diamond merchant, Dada Lekhraj, began to claim that Shiva, God the Supreme Soul, had entered him to begin the task of creating a new world order'''" and the book "Adi Dev - The First Man" by Jagdish Chander.

			* '''Now, my question here, what is it called when one disincarnate spirit or soul enters into the body of another, takes control of it, starts talking etc?'''

			In plain English, that is ], or " the concept that gods, daemons, demons, animas, or other disincarnate entities may temporarily take control of a human body, resulting in noticeable changes in behaviour" to quote the wiki itself. There are no other word for it. Put that together with the BKWSU training manual, the Sakar Murlis and quotes given from Sister Jayanti regarding ] and we have the first paragraph. Nothing controversial there; we have a paper of note, scripture, a published author and a senior administrator of the organization backing it all up.

			'''In the article the journalist asks the BKWSU for comment on "whether six million Jews had died at the hands of the Nazis because of their 'bad karma'?" and the newspaper was told that, "Yes, indeed they had." My suggestion is that we include this in the section on Karma.'''

			On a separate issue, the newspaper reports that London based Cult Information Centre, which monitors the activities of new religious movements, describes the BKWSU as a "religious cult". "'''The Brahma Kumaris believe that the world is about to end in apocalyptic destruction, ushering in a Golden Age in which group members will be divine beings living in palaces 'decorated with multicoloured lights''''."

			'''I look forward to the convolutions of Wiki policy Luis is going to try to overcome this. My guess is that he is just going to try and use aggression and accusation to ignore it all, where I am sure that real academics and educational faculty members will not'''. ] 06:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


			: * Lastly, LUIS, can you please work out how to use the Wiki because your signature/date stamp is not working. Use 4 tildas and check your user preferences please, e.g. <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> will add a name and datestamp automatically. Also, make it easier for us to follow what you write, perhaps you could have a play in the ] first to get a grasp on formatting, indentation etc.

			: Thank you again. ] 06:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

			==Tuesday October 24 2006 is the deadline ==

			Dear .244,
			Thank you for you advice about the "sandbox," I agree that I am becoming more familiar with the policies at Misplaced Pages than the way you edit it...

			Since you are preparing an "information pack to academics" right now, that means that you do not have the "reliable sources" as specified by Misplaced Pages to support
			your statements. Thus, you wrote this article without considering this important fact. Let me remind you that those references that you have are not cited at any point in that first paragraph in question.

			As far as your article in the London Observer, please show us the site or make it somehow available for us to see it (your BKINFO site perhaps) As far as the first paragraph is concerned there is little that could be used. As a matter of fact, let me point out a reference which you added in this article (under bibliography/references) but have no cited at all:
			Dr. Kranenborg's work: http://www.cesnur.org/testi/bryn/br_kranenborg.htm
			Please take a look at that article. Well written, in a non bias way, concise, "weasel words" are out of the question unlike the current article. See the difference?
			According to that article it says:"The movement was founded in 1936 in Karachi by Lekh Raj who was born in 1876." Thus, guess which "reliable source" is more reliable for an on line encyclopedia? Your newspaper or a scholar article. BTW, I obtained the permission from Dr. Kranenborg to quote his article...also take a look at the label he uses to describe BK: "Religion" or "new religion" thus in agreement with Dr. Richard Barz.

			I know "bkwatch" has been very busy lately... hope to see a "reliable source" from your part tomorrow.

			Best Wishes,

			] 14:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


			==Confluence age phases==
			This is a citation request for the following paragraph,

			"Therefore their knowledge has become modified according to necessity in order to sustain their faith. At first it was taught 50 years for destruction and 50 for creation, then 60 / 40, now the Brahma Kumaris tend to try and avoid the issue."

			Please provide this otherwise I will delete the paragraph. ] 15:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

			: I'm sorry Avyakt 7, I can't be bothered to look up whatever it is your so upset about, but I would like to know why you are harbouring personal feelings and opinions about me, I have never spoken to you before as far as I am aware, it just seems strange, love is the key ] 17:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

			: Dear Green108, I have the highest opinion about you. I don't recall otherwise. Are you upset about something? Please be "light"... I totally agree with you, love is the answer... Now, down to business, my friend: '''I think Bksimonb raised a good question there, how about responding to it?'''
			: Best Wishes Green108, ] 17:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

			::yes i am upset by your comments, I quote 'Oh yeah.. I was forgetting about your friend, Green108… What can I say'. This implies some feelings on your behalf about me that I don't understand, also I don't like you saying you have the highest regard for me, are you saying you know me?.......who are you and why do you have opinions about me? I have asked you three times now, why don't you answer,,,,this is the business I care about, not the silly article, it's not a point scoring game, it's just an article about an organisation, so when I just happen to come on here to see how it's going, I read comments from a stranger that I feel are not in the highest regard at all, if I am wrong could you please explain it to me. ] 15:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

			::: Dear Green108, Here is my email:avyakt7atyahoodotcom. You can write me here to talk about this matter, if you wish. This space is to discuss about the "silly article" only.(quoting as you wrote it) '''Any reliable sources to support this article?.''' Best Wishes, ] 15:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

			:::: Avyakt 7, you made those comments about me right here on this discussion board, so I feel here is the place for you to explain them, I have no wish to enter into private communications with you, please just explain yourself as I feel insulted, I just want to know what's behind them, otherwise I will make a formal complaint about you to Wiki ] 16:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

			::::: '''Strongly opposed''', see following citations. As far as a complaint about BK Luis, please do. it is about time someone did. ] 23:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

			==Confluence Age of 40 years / 1976 Destruction citations==
			You are correct to state this this paragraph should be changed. It should read that "'''at first it was taught that the Confluence Age was 40 years and then it was changed to 50/50, 50/60 ... etc.'''

			* The first reference or citation for this is a "''Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishvarya Vidyalya, HQ Pandav Bhavan, Mount Abu''" teaching aid poster "The Ladder", , in which it states clearly, "'''Auspicious Confluence Age (Sangum Yuga) 40 Years'''".

			* Also published and dated in '''1967''' is this BKWSU teaching aid poster "Lakshmi and Narayan" , which clearly states;

			''' '' "Corruption, Irreligiousness, unrighteousness, vices, insolvency, and suffering will come to an end in Bharat within 9 years and Golden-aged, deity world-Sovereignty of Shri Lakshmi and Shri Narayan will come to be established after forth-coming huge World Destruction within 9 years" '' '''.

			which would equate to 1975-6 - or 40 years after the initial possession of Lekhraj Kirpalani and start of the channelled teachings.


			This and the other supporting citations, e.g. quotes from published books, magazines and scriptures, have all been previous given on these discussion pages and indeed the teaching posters are listed as a references on the topic page. Please do your homework first before making NPOV revisions.

			* Scriptural references for 40 years are; Avyakt Murli 25/10/69, 05/11/70, 03/02/71, 09/09/72, 04/02/74, 09/11/74 etc., as given here . As an example quotation from the 1969 Murli in which Shiva Baba says,
			''' '' "The final Destruction of the whole World takes place within 6 years. Those who tell it to be 7 years have their position reduced" '' '''
			* Scriptural references for 50 to 60 years are; Sakar Murli 2004/02/04


			'''Sadly, this underline how little due care and attention you are giving any given references that oppose your organization's current PR and, perhaps, how unaware or misled you have been of your own organization's history. If this is so, please ask your Senior Sisters why these changes have been written out of your organization's history, why the scriptures are being changed and what the significance of the 1976 date for Destruction was. Please note, the original posters were displayed in the Delhi center for many years with a sticker over the 40 years changing the date but these editions distributed worldwide. If you realy need me to pull out more references I can but I think we have established clear balance of probability, on sound citations, that I am correct.'''

			Please note the organization recently celebrated its 70th Anniversary. ] 23:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

			==First paragraph modified==

			This is the way the first paragraph of this article will look tomorrow unless "reliable sources" are presented today (10/24/06). Needless to say, any attempt to revert back without providing the required support will be considered vandalism.

			'''Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya''' or '''Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University''' is
			considered a new religious movement<ref>
			according to wikipedia policies</ref> according to John Wallis, Ph.D<ref> Culture and Religion 2 (2001)"The problem of tradition in the work of Anthony Giddens." John Wallis, Ph.D University of Warwick, UK.</ref> or a religion<ref> As suggested by Professor Richard Barz, Senior
			Lecturer, Faculty of Asian Studies. The Australian National
			University.[http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/index.php/Dr_Richard_Barz</ref> or as stated by Professor R. Kranenborg “Brahma Kumaris is in
			fact a new religion, originating within Hinduism but going its own way.” The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University ('''BKWSU''') teaches a form of meditation denominated Raja Yoga. According to Kranenborg:
			“''The entire way of the Brahma Kumaris can be characterized as raja yoga. One should not think here in the first
			place of classical yoga, as described by Patanjali. Central to raja yoga is that one becomes connected with the
			Highest Soul and with the highest in oneself. It is a way to the true self, which is to be expressed in everyday life."''

			: '''Strong objection'''. There is clearly no consensus on this. Especially whether or not Shiva is the highest soul. You do not provide any citations to suggest that.

			: '''There is no need to remove the core millenarianistic issues of Destruction and the Nuclear Holocaust that is so central and identifying to the BKWSU and you make no justification as to why it should be removed.'''

			: You have been provided with adequate citations to counter your position. Your POV is not in a position to judge what is vandalism or not. What is currently written is accurate. It is just not to the taste of the BKWSU PR department. ] 22:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

			:: I am citing Kranenborg. He is a Professor, he has done research in this subject. Show your research counteracting this.
			:: This paragraph, (first one) is referring to what is BK? what is Raja Yoga? and when it was founded and by whom?. I could add the "millenarian" label if you feel appropriate. After all Christianity is considered a millenarianistic religion as well, however; I do not see that in their WIKI page.
			:: You have provided several books and links which do not match the content of this article. As we discussed before, BK material is out of the question unless it is quoted by a researcher. ] 00:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			==Origins==
			The movement was founded in 1936 in Karachi by Lekh Raj Kripalani who was born in 1876.
			"''When he wanted to withdraw from this life in 1936 so that he could devote himself to the spiritual life, he had a radical religious experience. He had the feeling that he had come into contact with the Supreme Soul or God; at the same time he experienced himself in this encounter as an eternal soul and the connectedness of that soul with the Supreme Soul.''”<ref> Reender Kranenborgh from Free University of Amsterdam
			</ref>

			====References====
			<div class="references-small" style="-moz-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
			<references/>
			</div>

			Best Wishes, ] 22:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

			: '''Strong objection''' again.

			: Kirplani did not feel, it is cited clearly in BKWSU own publicity material that "God entered him". Whereas the initial possession by the so-called "Shiva", or "Supreme Soul" of Lekhraj Kirpalani, and the ensuing psychic visions of Destruction, Vishnu, souls leaving body etc, may have taken place from around 1936, the formation of some type of organisation, took place in 1937. Again, you have had the citation given to you many times.

			: "From Landmarks in the History of Prajapita BrahmaKumaris Ishwariya Vishwa-Vidyalaya" - which is the BKWSU own webpage it states;

			: "'''(1937)''' - ''Formation of world's first Trust of women and Baba's surrender of all property to the trust ". In the year 1937, a spiritual trust was constituted and Baba surrendered all his movable and immovable property to a committee of women and girls. Never before, in the history of the world had any mate surrendered all his belongings to a trust, constituted only of ladies. Nowhere had women been given such an honour, as here, to head and run a spiritual organisation. Baba called them Bharat Mothers and said that these would open the doors to paradise by educating people to be pure.''"

			:

			: I am afraid this underline how far out of touch with the reality of even your own organizations published history and how far you are pushing your own organization's PR agenda. This is not a Neutral Point of View. ''"An exception to this rule of thumb is the technical use of this term in sociology, which is quite neutral (i.e. small religious group with novel religious beliefs and a high degree of tension with the surrounding society). However, the author shouldn't use the term in that sense without explaining exactly what he/she is doing, since that meaning is unfamiliar to most people. The adjective "cultic" (cultic group, cultic behavior) is in such cases preferable, as it is used in sociological context referring to the technical meaning but rarely in everyday language referring to the everyday meaning of cult."''

			'''On the basis of the Wiki reference you are giving, I am fine with it. The Brahma Kumaris are a cult, exhibit cultic behavior and I am happy to follow the guidelines and write the article around why, as it suggests. These discussion pages are a fine example of the tensions both within and without the organization, made worse by the secretiveness and dishonesty over its own history '''.

			* The Observer (London) is dated 6 October 1996. Article by Mick McGovern and is availabe from their public records office. Your organization's London center will have a copy of it. All you BKs are aware of the veracity of what it being stated here and the contradiction of the academic's impressions by the BKWSUs own records. What reward in the Golden Age do you expect to gain by covering up the truth of God's actual incarnation onto Earth. See your own website here Luis, . No feelings, no inspiration, Shiva incarnated or possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani.

			] 22:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

			: We are celebrating our 70 anniversary. Did you know that? Let me see, 1937 plus 70 years is... We are still 2006. Professor Kranenborg has the right date. The current article is wrong. Simple math. avyakt7 00:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			: (This was deleted before.. I can put it back again.) ] 00:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			:: 70th Anniversary of what? The incarnation of God into Lekhraj Kirpalani? The formal institution and entrustment was 1937. ] 00:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			: Dear .244,
			: Please show your reliable sources to counteract my researched position. Please note that I am citing every single line of the paragraph.Don't raise objections for the sake of it. Take the time to go into every document which I am citing. You will find everything in there. This is not PR, this is called academic research, something which the current article lacks.
			: I am waiting for your academic researched articles, books etc. which should '''match without a doubt''' the paragraph in question. Your objections have no support of "reliable resources." Please see that without "reliable resources" which support the paragraph in question, this article has no validity as far as being considered encyclopedia material.
			: If you revert this paragraph without proof (one more time...reliable sources) it will be vandalism. Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. Best, ] 00:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


			:: '''I have Luis. Your organization's own published material - copiously provided here - are utterly adequate by Wiki standards.''' ] 00:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			::: Reliable sources, please... ] 00:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			:::: '''I have Luis. Your organization's own published material - copiously provided here - are utterly adequate by Wiki standards.'''

			:::: From reliable sources; "''Material from self-published sources, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information in articles, so long as there is no reasonable doubt who wrote it, and where the material is'':
			''
			:::: ''relevant to the self-publisher's notability'';

			:::: ''not contentious'';

			:::: ''not unduly self-serving or self-aggrandizing'';

			:::: ''about the subject only and not about third parties or events not directly related to the subject''". '''End of the argument.''' ] 00:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			==.244 fails to provide reliable sources matching his paragraph.==
			Dear.244,
			We will go back to the "cycle" of these articles. I wrote before, way up above...that you cannot use those sources and I gave reasons for it. Let me paste it again here. You have failed to provide reliable sources after the 3 days. All you are doing is arguing without support from reliable sources. Thus, the paragraph will be changed. Unless you show an accurate citation referring to that paragraph and using the Bibliography which you supplied, if you attempt to revert the article will be considered vandalism. You know, I will revert it back as it happened with the NPOV.

			Here one more time:
			There are 3 problems with your (.244) citing of this policy:

			1)The sources that you mentioned qualify under “sources of dubious reliability” since as I mentioned before, they do not belong to the category of “reliable sources” until it is quoted by a reliable publication. Therefore, these “dubious sources” can only qualify as sources for this article IF they are being used in an article about “ourselves” thus, the author(s) of this article are far from qualifying of being considered “ourselves.” As a matter of fact, it is an article written by a group (or individual) against “ourselves.” (The BK) Therefore, your claim does not fit this rule.

			2)Quote:“Even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources.” Claims that main editors are making in this article clearly fit under the “libellous” label (harmful and often untrue.) You cannot use those articles to do that. UNLESS you have a reliable source.. a “credible source.” (which you don’t.)

			3) Note that out of all the bullets you pointed out to support your use of “dubious sources” the following do not apply:

			* It is not contentious: Clearly what the editors wrote in this article is contentious.(As explained above.)
			* It is not unduly self-serving: Far from true. It is completely the opposite, the statements in the article,
			the written form of it have a high tendency to discredit the BK. The use of “weasel”
			words to discredit the BK movement is high.
			* It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject:
			This article has been referring to several other groups and how BKs are the “bad guys” when dealing
			with them. Your links about obscure newspapers and bias websites lacking reliability are the proof for that.
			* There is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it: Proof? How?

			Therefore, please use reliable sources. Otherwise this article lacks validity.
			Best, ] 12:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)



			==Whole sections are being Pruned off by Avyakt7==
			Avyakt7 Luis et All/BK Tech Team are deleting whole sections while claiming to be adding citation:http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Brahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University&diff=next&oldid=83276240
			*Destruction has been provided with evidence on the very page.
			*Deleting information with citation is not proper.
			*Making the main paragraph into an advert for persons cited in wrong. Citations go into the proper area. There are only the points you choose to take to suit your interest/promotion. Will return back to discuss the other points in this area.

			So, once again the FULL TIME TECH TEAM is doing a hacket job on the article without denying any of the information or willing to answer "ONE" question posed to them. PEACE] 14:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			==Please Calm down talk about ==
			Dear TalkAbout:

			Here it is what it was removed as I stated before:
			I am citing Kranenborg. He is a Professor, he has done research in this subject.
			Show your research counteracting this.
			This paragraph, (first one) is referring to what is BK? what is Raja Yoga?
			and when it was founded and by whom?. I could add the "millenarian" label if you feel appropriate.
			After all Christianity is considered a millenarianistic religion as well, however;
			I do not see that in their WIKI page.You have provided several books and links which do not match
			the content of this article. As we discussed before, BK material is out of the question unless it
			is quoted by a researcher. avyakt7 00:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			Talk About show us you research on this topic. At least one reference pointing to your article should be there.

			Please do not make me repeat the same "record" over and over...Read my posts and show your research articles and then we can
			discuss this, otherwise; the page will be reverted. .244 has been warned and now you are being warned.
			Please show RELIABLE SOURCES. That is all...
			Thank you. Best ] 14:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			==History==
			Now that the references match the opening paragraph and the "origin" header, let us focus on the section which I named "History" to avoid having two "origin" headers.
			Under History, user .244. please submit your reliable sources which are easily verifiable under Misplaced Pages rules to support that paragraph.
			Look forward to reading them. Thank you. ] 13:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			I am particularly interested in this statement: "Dada Lekhraj, known then as "Om Baba", in turn denounced the Congress as "Kansa" or wicked and under pressure of Hindu public opinion, the Sindh government reluctantly banned the Om Mandali, which went to court and had the ban order quashed." Sources?

			and this one: "spending their time in intense spiritual study, meditation and alleged self-transformation. During this time, mediumistic female followers known as "Sandeshputris" or trance messengers helped add to their spiritual knowledge through psychic visions and allegedly direct contact with God." Sources? Note the use of weasel words.

			and of course, i find this very interesting: "the community moved to Mount Abu, mainly due to the religious resistance to its activities in Pakistan." Sources, please?

			BTW, both of your links about the "history" of BK do not have all the extra "flavor" (for lack of a better word)that you have added. Without sources to back this up, it will be deleted as well. Your turn. Best Wishes, ] 19:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

			:I cannot see anything distasteful, I can see caution in making unsubstantiate claims. What citations can you offer that anyone has been "transformed" by BK practise? It is not exactly a measurable scientific term, is it?

			:The sources you have already been given and had pointed out to you many times already. What is the problem with them? ] 20:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 01:08, 31 January 2023

This is an archive of past discussions about Brahma Kumaris. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Current

Request to shorten the PBK section and start their own page

I have a request to shorten the PBK section and start their own page. The current entry is rather long and we could add more Bibliography/References to the article if we had more space available. I am not asking that they be deleted...only shortened and the full entry moved to their page with more room to expand on it there. This would also allow for photos to be added which would make the article more engaging. PEACETalkAbout 17:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

They already do. Either AIVV, PBK or Prajapita Brahma Kumaris will take you there and it is linked to on the topic, it is not?

As far as I understand the PBKs have such a problem with BK members the leadership of the BKWSU shutting down their websites, going out of there way to discredit and persecute them that that they cant be bothered to develop it. It is a tense scene out in India between the two parties. They are no way as rich as the BKWSU.

BTW, as a matter of form new comments go at the bottom and the order is not changed otherwsie they might be missed.

P.S. I just had a look at their page ... and yes ... there are signs of the usual blanking/edit wars.

Thanks 195.82.106.244 17:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

.244,

So, does this mean that there is still room to add to the article?

Well, I could add the PBK article to my watch list....

PEACE TalkAbout 17:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Your attempted analysis of my motives is both innacurate and not relevant.

Given your initial response, my prediction is that I would find dialogue with you unenjoayble and unproductive, so I leave the issue for someone else to tackle. I'll check back from time to time and see how well your defense of the page as it stands is holding up! Sethie 10:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Searchin Man complaint

The email which I posted above dated August 21, 2006 has been modified. It now reads as if I was invited to post back at the forum, brahmakumaris.info. I have been trying to log on into the site several times since I was banned, ...I would like to share my lyrics too..but unfortunately it is another false statement. BTW, are you going to buy the .mobi TLD ? Better hurry up...

So now everyone knows my name, former work place (sorry I cannot use the University computers to post,I have another job) Did you enjoy the USF site? but that is not malicious, you just made a simple google search to find out more about me...Well, 195.82.106.244 look forward to posting again in the site.. another lie from you will really discredit you....

Best Wishes to you,

Avyakt7 aka Riveros11 64.156.25.3

( can you figure out who is my IP provider? just do a "whois" search)

Dear,Avyakt7 aka Riveros11

64.156.25.3 Oh, are you Searchin man too?,

I will write the Admin one last time since you seem to miss the interaction and perhaps it will keep your duality in check by being just Avyakt7 there. Community seems to be a deep loss to those in transition. As stated before, please use this page only for article issues and not forum issues. I did provide the official BK forum link for you. Did you join? I hope that you get others support to allow for your timely return. In the mean time keep churning and play nice. PeaceTalkAbout 23:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey Bud, looks like there's sockpuppets galore operating on this discussion. Where about are you posting the complaint to the wiki admin Talkabout? Don't forget to get 195.82.106.244=Brahmakumaris.info checked as well, I'm absolutely certain you will have much more luck with I.P resolution there. Oh and btw 195.82.106.244, the edit summary is for summarising the edit or in your case vandelism carried out. Try and remember that please.

sincerely searchin man 23:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi.

Sure, you are making unsubstantated personal attacks and erroneous claims. I will go through the discussion again and correct what is wrong. I have no problem with criticisms, IF they are based on reality, BUT as this topic is not about me personally, I do not see the relevance.

Personally, I would prefer to work on addressing the citations that I have provided and following up on the organization's financial status. You are in a better position than I am to provide those but they ought be in the public domain.

Yup, ignore God making all those 1976 End of the World predictions, the senior sisters covering up the child abuse, keep up the ad hominem attacks guys - and don't whatever you do ask to see the un-editing copies of the Murlis. Especially, those between 1969 and 1976. This is all becoming very good factual account of the real face of the BKWSU today.

But tell me, are you going to meet God, the Supreme Soul, possessing and speaking through the old India lady Gulzar this "Double Foreigner" season at Mount Abu ? I am wondering if we need to correct the stuff about God Shiva possessing and being channelled through Gulzar as it says, "Should Shiva Baba enter the body of a pure virgin? But there is no such rule. After all Father, how can He mount a virgin?" in the Murli dated 15 October 1969. Can you check this please? Does that means that it is NOT God that is possessing Gulzar and speaking the Avyakt Murlis? If it is not, who is it that all the BK Raja Yogis are going to meet and having yoga with?

Thanks. 195.82.106.244 00:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear PeaceTalkAbout,

1.Please remember that it is not "playing nice" to modify articles in this talk page. Is this something which concern this article? I hope you say yes.

2.I am already a member of that site you sent me, which is a BK site. "Ex-I" is acting maliciously by disclosing my full personal information. He is not the only computer person around and I could get his full name,and other information which he is trying to protect...., but I will not (You can breathe deepely now, .244.) How about Godaddy.com? for kicks... 195.82.106.244 play nice, my friend. This is related with the article in question, because it shows that .244 is abusing this site and going against some of the wikipedia rules and regulations. All I have done is to find out that 195.82.106.244 and Ex-I are the same person and that he stated untrue statements to BK Simon. Oh, Btw, I didn't do a google search to get that.

3. It is obvious to me that 195.82.106.244 is afraid of my posts. He bragged about all along that "I run away" from his site. He is not giving me the chance to post there again because it is not convenient for him. As far as wikipedia, anyone could post here and make any changes. Changing IP addresses is not a problem.

4. Just for the record, I am not "Searchin man," and I will not lie about this. I am a Brahmin soul and I have no interest in anything else but to see an accurate article about the Brahma Kumaris in Misplaced Pages. As it stands right now, there is a lot to be worked on. That's all PeaceTalkAbout, waiting to hear from "that" admin... oh, yeah.. He knows my email (as everyone else now)so he can reach me via email to avoid any further delays.

Best Wishes,

Avyakt7 Riveros11

Riveros11,

If you are going to continue to make ad hominem attacks, and you feel they have any relevance to this BKWSU topic, substantiate your allegations. I keep asking.

Personally, I'd rather focus on the facts related to this topic starting with the financial structure and status of the BKWSU.

If you are a trusted recruiter, and have some inside access to the management of the cult, are you willing to co-operate in this matter or do you think the cult's interest are best served by trying to attack and discredit me and the brahmakumaris.info website?

We have a good opportunity here to completely and accurately document the cult in a manner that has never been done before. I think you have to agree that the bulk of the topic is according to Shrimat and clearly referenced from the Murlis.

So what are your specific corrections and what are your easily referenceable sources or alternative citations?

195.82.106.244 14:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Avyakt7 Riveros11,

I haven't seen your name or address here? I do not think it was posted.

One point that I do believe needs to be corrected is the founder's proper occupation. I will gather the information one posted as I have verified this with several sources now and it would appear that it needs to be corrected. This was posted in along with some that are arbitrary (well semantics). The following was submitted by 88.110.105.125 :Formed in Sindh, now Pakistan, during 1937 by wealthy diamond merchant, Dada Lekraj, whose customers included royalty. He was a devout Hindu and had 12 gurus. After many years of devotion Dada Lekraj. My sources confirm that this indeed was the case and as in any business, not all jewelers can trade in diamonds, only a select few. This distinction is also warranted as it also shows that he was from a wealthy family in say contrast with Jesus. Sindh, being the upper business class and influential in society.

As to the OZ site well I would have to agree that the most intellectual thing posted there is the Thought for the Day. So, hopefully some of the other active BKs will pledge for you, so that you can return to the info site. By playing nice I am only noting that the PBKs under Arjun seem to get along wonderfully and so I do believe you too can get along in the sand box of the forum. So, place all bad thoughts away as a Brahmin soul and with good thoughts all Brahmins will get along.

I look forward to the discussion on the above-mentioned correction. PEACE TalkAbout 16:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

I have no complaint to place here in regards to .244. I discuss the points and move on from there. I would like to point out I did varify on thing and yes it would appear to be true albeit not in the best wording...as one could conjur many things from said words. I wrote the Admins at the site where Avaykt7 wishes to return to. PEACE TalkAbout 16:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Talkabout! Good of you to take the time out to communicate Bud. Why up to now you’d been dismissing me right out of hand as a nasty sock puppet. Glad to see the change of heart. Sorry Bud, no idea what your saying here. -. “I would like to point out I did varify on thing and yes it would appear to be true albeit not in the best wording...as one could conjure many things from said words.” - Please clarify for me.

Got to say Bud, finding it very difficult to see you as a self confessed ‘monitor of this article for vandalism’. Certainly your vigilance don’t extent to this discussion page, or you’d surely be more up for complaining to the Wiki Admin?

Seems like it has to take a part-timer like myself to drop in once in a while to catch 195.82.106.244 in the act of pruning and modifying what other contributors have said, to what he would prefer them to have said. Let me tell you Bud, this sort of behaviour may go down just a treat on his own brahmakumaris.info forum but it has no place whatsoever on a Wiki discussion page.

And yet Talkabout Bud, it can get worse! Naturally I restore the discussion to it’s original condition, where upon 195.82.106.244 reverts it to his version and then uses my own Talk page as a forum to publicly disclose personal information on Avyakt7 Riveros11 and then he really lays it on rich by attempting to further threaten me if I ‘don’t play by the Wiki rules’. I mean that last statement alone just kills me Bud. What sort of rules has the guy been reading!

And then ofcourse don’t forget the sock puppetry. - 195.82.106.244 aka BrahmaKumaris.info. Again something people are seemingly prepared to put up with on the BrahmaKumaris.info forum, but the disciplining of those who hide behind multiple identities on a wiki page is something I do know you will strongly agree with me on? Awaiting your comment Bud

sincerely searchin man 23:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is true. I will continue to make correction based on the facts and not sound like a scratched record.

What I raised on searchin man discussion page, here; http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Searchin_man was the following. I am still waiting for either of them to refure any of these core BKWSU facts and beliefs and say, no, they are not true.

why the BKWSU were at pains to cover up the Child Sex Abuse ring operating in at least two of Indian centers, including the headquarters of Madhuban, that sexually abused a number of young girls?
why the pedophiles that committed these crimes were not reported to the police and brought to justice as, say, the Roman Catholic has finally starting to do?
why they were allowed to remain in their positions for several years despite the problems being known?
why they attempt to re-write the BKWSU sex abuse incident as a mere allegation rather than an actual incident and blame it on the child?
why the BKWSU took great pains at a teachers training session in the Oxford Global Retreat Centre to attempt to cover up any connection between child sex abuse and the BKWSU - WITHOUT INFORMING THE BKWSU RAJA YOGA TEACHERS THAT SEXUAL ABUSE HAD ACTUALLY TAKEN PLACE? Noting that the BKWSU even wrote this down on the handouts.

I pointed out that Avyakt7 Riveros11 believes and teaches - which is what the BKWSU behind the facade is really all about - that;

dinosaurs lived 2,500 years ago,
that evolution is a constantly repeating and identical 5,000 year cycle (which God used to teach it was going to be all over in 1975/76)
in less than 30 years we will be making babies without having sex, indeed that baby Krishna must be on his way any day now
that 6 Billion are going to die during a Nuclear Holocaust to make way for their heaven on earth (although God used to teach there were only 5 Billion human souls)
God possesses a little old Indian lady to meet his superior Brahmin caste only,
everyone else on the planet are Shudras.
I am surprised that they wanted to bring all this stuff up on this discussion page. 195.82.106.244 02:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

You know Bud, I had harboured the faint hope I might hear from Talkabout, but seems like the ubiquitous 195.82.106.244 will have to do. 195.82.106.244', I don’t quite recall asking you to throw ever more of your queries about the BK on my Talk page any more than the abuse that accompanied them, and I certainly didn’t ask for them to be regurgitated here.

In any event I am not a BK, but I am someone who has taken a pile of spiritual benefit through association with the BK. I would also say that I’ve found spiritual insight elsewhere too including mainstream Christianity. However this has usually not been without the subtle underhand pressure to ‘convert’. Something that refreshingly, I have never experienced with the BK. You can come and go at will, take what you want, leave what you don’t.

You seem to believe that it is essential that the every detail of the BK philosophy remains entirely consistent with what it was as you experienced it first hand, which from your postings on the brahmakumaris.info forum, I reckon is at least 20 years ago. Where as I believe group spirituality as with an individuals’ spirituality should be allowed space to evolve.

The reason I have entered this discussion is because currently you alone, are responsible for almost all the content of the wiki listing on the BK. As many others have commented before me, I do not at all consider this a remotely satisfactory state of affairs, as your views are so jaundiced and the methods you use to ensure their total dominance are so deceitful, that quite frankly Bud, I would give my support to anyone that attempts to challenge you with a more reasonable and balanced stance.

Currently if anyone attempts more than the most trivial change to the wiki entry it immediately gets pulled down and the ‘perpetrator’ (unless of course it’s 195.82.106.244') is invited to discuss before making changes. When I first checked in around the end of August, the ‘Some inaccuracies in the article’ section was well under way.

It came to an abrupt closure when 89.240.134.193/84.13.205.142 had his NPOV warning and citation request pulled down within hours if not minutes. His final posting in the discussion was then deleted by 195.82.106.244, only to be restored by myself a month later, and even that only after an abusive and threatening encounter with 195.82.106.244.

And just finally I notice 195.82.106.244 has just added some references under ‘OM Mandali banned by Hindu pressure during Partition’. Am I to assume this is a belated counter to bkSimonb’s argument that that community moved to India at the request of relatives?

Whatever the case it is a complete misinterpretation of what the references actually say. In fact, they wholly support Simon’s point that the resistance and court injunctions against Om Mandali occurred shortly after the Yagya relocated to Karachi in 1937, not in 1950.

Talkabout it’s gone all Silentabout your end, but I’m asking you again Buddy, surely you can see clearly now that 195.82.106.244 is utterly unsuited to any further involvement in the editing of this Misplaced Pages article?

sincerely searchin man 14:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

Fist point, "89.240.134.193/84.13.205.142 had his NPOV warning and citation request" This was pulled by me as the Bibliography/References are available and was simply not warranted.
Second point, it would appear that this page is harder to work on than say the Iraq War page due to the personalisation for the purpose of discouraging folks to participate. See, one can discuss a point without arguing the point.
Third Point, 195.82.106.244 is not vandalising the discussion page. If you check you will see he is a little detail oriented on the wiki process, which I some times fall outside the lines and disregard. He wants it to look just right as per the wiki rules. Must be some left over post BK thing. No wonder this individual followed and continues to understand the BK philosophy. So, if I don't add enough :::: I later see it has been corrected.
Fourth point, the article has had input and is checked by many recent ExBKs including Mr.Green, and others. Please don't make it seem as though it is just a few, as many have contributed to this page.
'Fifth point, I am personally thinking that perhaps you should keep the personal song and dance between you and 195.82.106.244 on your discussion pages and duel it out there. I take the time to contribute to other pages and see my time not spent wisely when I have to monitor this type of thing:” I won't argue the point, just tell 195.82.106.244 to leave the sand box...(paraphrasing here)". This is your intent, is it not?
Six point, as pointed out by you; you are a part-timer and not one that followed the BK teachings in ernest. So, I would have to review points argued and check them, then side with the correct point. I do corrections and I have had to make my PEACE upon learning when siding too quickly with another and later having to eat my hat for doing so. Today I am not as quick.
Seven Point, the personal Attacks and I have come to that conclusion are without merit. It would be the Old Poisoning the Well in logic and it doesn't bode well here. If you want to go toe to toe on points here than do so, without carrying on about the forums etc. Forums and site issues must be argued there. Please join one and start a thread there. You may even engage say "AndyH" if you are so lucky. One can dream.
Eigth point, I actually have great admiration for Avyakt7 Riveros11 in that he is a thinker and is trying in all ernest to validate the cycle and put others questions to rest. This is more than I have seen from others that simply accept and go argue incessantly without trying to using logic, just dogma. I can appreciate that he has even developed a theory albeit with no science to prove it, but impressive!
Ninth point, let us get back to the discussion that would lead us to an outcome and drop all the non sequiturs.TalkAbout AKA SilentAbout :) PEACE TalkAbout 16:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for replying Talkabout. Really appreciate it Bud. Below are my replies to each of the points raised by you as numbered above.

First point And I’m struggling already! 89.241.128.107 has raised over 40 citation requests at ]

a) Are you seriously telling me that you consider it acceptable, that he or anyone else that questions that accuracy of statement(s) within the article should be prepared to read the entire Bibliography section to find supporting evidence?

b) Having looked at the Bibliography section as it was at the time of the above edit. I simply cannot accept your assertion that many of the references 89.241.128.107 has requested are to be found there anyway!

Talkabout, I conclude that this is no proper way to edit a wiki article. Please comment.

Second Point I fully agree, but for some much harder than for others!

Third Point Sorry strongly disagree. Here are 2 examples of blatant vandalism of the discussion page by 195.82.106.244. ] ] And then following the threats and abuse on my Talk page re-vandalised here ]. Now here, you can swot up on the Wiki definition of Vandalism]

Can you compare and comment thanks.

Fourth Point Buddy you are making me work now!

(a) Below is a breakdown of the most recent 50 edits on the article between 25/8/06 and 3/10/06

- 195.82.106.244 made 25.

- Talkabout made 5.

- The remaining 20 edits were the work of 13 other editors.

- Of those 13, 8 had their edits entirely reverted mostly without discussion by either 195.82.106.244' or Talkabout.

- Of the 5 remaining editors the only one whose edit was other than a trivial grammatical change was Logic User. And his edit was a complete revert to Talkabout’s last edit!

Sure looks like complete and utter control in the hands of a very, very few to me!

(b) Ah interesting, so there is a behind the scenes ex-bk proof reading team? And by Mr Green, would that be user Green108 on the discussion page archive? Well if Green108 was a recent BK, then it doesn’t look like he paid too much attention. In his most recent entry he stonewalled BKSimonB over his attempts to elicit a minor change to the article whilst attempting to discredit the BK’s historian Jagdish Chandler as an unreliable reference. ] However, As I have already mentioned 195.82.106.244 has recently turned up independent historical references, , which fully support Chandlers record. The fact that 195.82.106.244 precises the above references quite erroneously, as evidence of ‘OM Mandali banned by Hindu pressure during Partition’ really says it all doesn’t it?

Comments please Bud.

Fifth Point Now don’t frighten me anymore there Talkabout, have you really looked at what’s he’s done to my Talkpage ], why next he might start publicly exposing my friends and family!

Sixth Point Ok, if this is by way of an apology for your previous dismissal of me, then I am genuinely encouraged by it.

Seventh Point Sorry, but after the abusive encounter Avyakt7 Riveros11 went through on the BKI forum, I’ve no desire to enter an arena where someone I believe to be 195.82.106.244 has full editorial powers stacked in his favour. And why go there anyway, when 195.82.106.244', who very possibly is the BKI forum administrator and is, despite his continual denials and cries of ‘personal attack’, already the overriding dominant force, and, I strongly suspect, not once but twice over in his multiple guises as 195.82.106.244' and brahamkumaris.info on this wiki page. If you need further proof of this, Avyakt7 Riveros11 can provide the full header information of the email transcripts he has received where an email from info@brahmakumaris.info is shown to originate from IP address 195.82.106.244.

As with the my vandalism concern please familiarise with the Wiki’s sockpuppet policy ] And get back to me on this

Eighth point Ok Bud, funny way of showing it at times, but as with point 6 that’s encouraging to know.

Nineth point Agreed, really that’s what I want to see too, however I feel the only way to encourage some of the other recent contributors such as "89.240.134.193/84.13.205.142 ,BKSimonB or Sethi to return to the discussion is when the vandalism, threats and sockpuppetry that so characterise 195.82.106.244’s aggressive editing style are removed. With regard to this, appreciate if you supply comments to my replies point by point as indicated. Thanks.

Sincerely searchin man 21:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

Nice of you to reply point by point. I do thank you for the change in tone as I rather enjoy logical discussions. The light hearted approach is refreshing as in any discussion it helps to laugh; especially when we find out we are wrong! I will do the research and provide a reply. Here is a bit of homework for you since you know BkSimon, which Imam gave said edict which he mentioned. This may provide some opening in the point of discussion he so wished to open and I imagine he has been busy as he hasn’t returned.

So, I have a bit of home work to address from you and will do so. As to Green, well I will place the quick vandalism list so I can have a quick glance and can tell foe and friend. .....244 Moved that:(! See, I receive no favors there, so I am in neutral territory and to answer the question yes I do rely on research or other sources but like the jailed reporters I will not reveal my sources. The point which you did not address but requested earlier, is the Murli point….correct but the word usage of “Mounting a Virgin” in modern day language could be misunderstood. That was my point there!

Your reply will be forth coming and hopefully well researched. Say, do you have any points my way in the change about the occupation of the founder? I need a little help on this one. I still haven’t given up and I am awaiting a reply to that one myself.

So, yea suffer not alone as my page has three helpful hints, but alas I take note that .244 is very detailed and wiki FUZZY and I take it with a grain of salt. I personally left it up there as it just shows a bit of character.

There is the story of a builder, with whom no one raised a question. One day the man set out to build a very large building and kept saying Right, the crew repeated Right and the final crew member told the builder Right! Well, at the end of the day they found themselves inside a circle…not a square (no door to be found) and unable to get out. Finally they raised a question, discussed their problem, compromised and one stood on another and hoisted the third man out. The moral here is, if we agreed upon every thing from a BK point of view we too would find ourselves in a circle (Advertisement/Self Promotion) and unable to tell truth from belief. I have respect for an individuals beliefs but hold more dear the idea of the Right to Information.

PEACETalkAbout 23:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

FYI, see while I was posting your reply .244 went in and wikified….your entry. This unfortunately it is not VANDALISM, it is an obsessive compulsive wikiFUZZY condition!lol Please NOTE the place has some devoted to this very mission!:)As promised I will look into those mentioned but having seen some I think we have a case of wikiFUZZY and not vandalism. TalkAbout 23:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

Point of information before I respond; you state "publicly exposing my friends and family". I only mentioned Luis Riveros use of his workplace computers to promote the religious cult he is a member of which is against the University of South Florida's regulations. Is he - because it was not "they" as you state - your friend or your family?

The thing about the objective facts of history is that they do not change whether they are last week or 100 years ago. As someone that has sat down and read years worth of Jagdish Chander's works, which I am pretty sure you have not, to call him a "historian" is laughable. He was the Vishwa Vidyala's publicist. Adi Dev is PR.

If Jagdish Chander was a historian, why ever did he write out of history - and Adi Dev - the failed 1976 End of the World/Destruction prediction? Lekhraj Kirpalani's attempt to give away all the money in the Yagya to the Government of India if the predictions did fail etc? Why did Jagdish Chander engage in the re-writing of Gyan and the Yagya's history from that date along with the other Seniors including the re-editing of the Murlis (God's Words)? Did you ever go to Morning Class? If you doubt any of these facts, go back to Waddy and check them out. She is perfect aware of them and the re-writing.

And, lastly, before you go ahead call everybody "Bud", Bud, get to grips with whether you are talking to a man or a woman. Frankly, I am finding your sexually patronizing, body-consciousness fixation with me a little offensive, in the same manner as a pestering drunk at a bar. Yes, I know they are machines but women can use computers too these days. ( ... file under "all hat and no cattle").

Thank you. 195.82.106.244 23:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Corporeal Founder's occupation and Lekhraj’s business partner, Sevak Ram,

Hi.

well, thank goodness someone can actually ask intelligent questions about factual content instead of continuing on the unsubstantiated slur against me.

With regards to the corporeal founder's occupation, here is a picture of the actually premises in Calcutta that Lekhraj Kirpalani did business from;

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_050.jpg

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_048.jpg

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_036.jpg

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_042.jpg

I am not so sure about all of the hyperbole. It does not really look that big or glamorous a location . FYI, Sindh is a geographic area not caste. Sindhis are only Hindis that live in the Sindh/Pakistan and of any caste. He and they are not upper class, the Bhaiband were merchants, which makes them 3rd class , had a reputation from being misogynistic and debauched, and were into money primarily. I have citations. There is a old Gujerati saying that, "if you are walking along a road and meet a Cobra snake and Sindhi, kill the Sindhi first". If it is a big issue and has to change, we need to get to primary sources and not just BKWSU PR. I bet most BK don't know half of what is up there.

Lekhraj may have been atypically religious but the fact is he was a business man and not a out of a religious caste. It appears that he was also self-made and not out of a rich family. It might be important to say that he was not not poor or ordinary because the Murlis say the chariot of God was. This is a controversial issue that the PBKs will raise at some point. The predictions suggest that Lekhraj was not the first nor the final medium of Shiva and the BKWSU have written out of history Lekhraj’s business partner, Sevak Ram who also played a part in the founding of the Yagya.

Can we get to actual figures of his wealth and size of estate? The BKWSU are quiet on that front. It could be public record and family of his still alive.

Personally, I think it is such a non-issue. What is so bad about being in business? It is the fact. 195.82.106.244 01:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

.244,

First point, the HP Shack is not called a shack albeit it isn't a full garage. It is called a garage, many have seen the photo and realise that it may very well be impossible to park a car there but it is still called garage. My point being is that in those times that may well have been an illustrious business location for the founder. After all the term location, location is termed by the position and the money/business one can make in said location.

Second Point, his daughter wore a sari once and discarded it off to the servants. This was a story told in the early days by the Elder Brothers and thus illustrates his wealth. A sari being six yards long and if made of the finest silk could pass through a ring without any effort.

Third point, not every jeweler can trade in diamonds....please check this. I do believe it has merit, the photos do show that he was very well groomed and not your average business man.

PEACETalkAbout 16:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

We are talking about India around the turn of the 19th/20th Century. I have no idea if they had a Diamond Bourse in Calcutta or any business regulations whatsoever. Calcutta was only one outlet, where else did he trade from? I think it is a non-issue. Lekhraj was a businessman and so that sticks. Personally, I think a proper biography would be very interesting but, in my opinion, the BKWSU are just too busy re-writing him as a dead saint or guru to want to bother document the human aspect, his relationship with Sevak Ram and Sevak's part in the evolution of the organization etc.

For example, why all those angelic pictures of Lekhraj despite Shiva's Murlis saying "no pictures" ? Its a contradiction of their faith. Or the BK Faith is a contradiction of Shiva's teachings. 195.82.106.244 13:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

195.82.106.244 continues to attack me without proof

Dear 195.82.106.244,

As I mentioned before I have not posted from any University of South Florida computer.' Want proof? Please do check all IP addresses where I have posted from. For your information, USF is a B class network. Their IP range starts with 131.X.X.X I have not posted from any IP which belongs to that range. .244 You are acting maliciously. Here is my first warning to you Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. according to wikipedia rules. Please check your statements specially if they relate to the integrity of others. You are disclosing my full name and accusing me of something which is not true. --avyakt7 17:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"She's attacking me ... she attacking me ... ". No one is interested. Actually, it was 216.49.220.27 which is the International Academy of Design & Technology - Tampa . Do you teach there too? I suppose I could write to them and have them confirm BUT the article is about the BKWSU not you, so let's focus.

BTW, someone else was using the same IP address around the same time to post REALLY CRAZY stuff on the Adolf Hitler page, see . So I hope that was not you. And if it was not, I would have a word with someone at the faculty there to put an end to it.

This is becoming silly. When are you BKs going to tire of trying to trying to attack my integrity and just deliver some hard documentation? Thanks. 195.82.106.244 01:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Greetings to both Avyak7 and 195.82.106.244 ,

Please let us stop the Bk vs ExBK thing here, you two are behaving like former spouses! From my point of view Avyak7 started off by trying to expose folks on an anonymous forum, several times here. Then when 195.82.106.244 pointed out it was not the thing to do, the throttle was thrown into full gear....then the complaints came in. Avyak7, I have not seen your name here in full print. RELAX!

So, perhaps we need to drop this and go on to the questions/discussions at hand. Oh, Avyakt7 I just want to say that if we cool it for a bit, things will get back to some semblance of reason here. If you keep bringing it up, folks might just figure out what I haven't. Best leave it. 195.82.106.244 Please see that at this point, if Avyak7 should try and disclose anything it is best that I reply to said concerns as he is upset. Some times we start a fire and then it gets away from us and so we must put it out no matter where it started!

So, let us all forgive and forget and continue. TalkAbout 17:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, it is ] not .244. And secondly, for the sake of accuracy, in response to their constant pestering and not backing off, I posted his name a few inches up the page. So more accuracy please.

Thanks Bud, but I am not asking for mediation. 195.82.106.244 23:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Miss 195.82.106.244,

I will be certain to post your full numbers. Sorry, to have offended you dear Miss ;however, I still think it is best that I handle any future disclosures from Avyakt7. Missed the name. I will look for it and remove it once found.

PEACE TalkAbout 23:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV, Discussions

Please state your discussions, points, no personal attacks, or rantings!
Stick to the points you are saying are not correct.
Provide evidence to support said staments.
Engage in polite discussion, no accusatory remarks.
If you are part of the BKWSU TECHNOLOGY TEAM effort please state so.
NO requests for personal e-mails, as an effort to suss/expose people.

TalkAbout 15:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"I have substantial evidence for this. Do you want me to disclose it?" Avyak7

“UN intervention for avyakt7 and 195.82.106.244.”
User 195.82.106.244 continues to attack me personally despite first warning

Dear 195.82.106.244,

Here is my second warning to you and thus , I will add the required tag "np3" Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Misplaced Pages has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by administrators or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki /WP:NPA#Consequences “Posting a link to an external source that fits the commonly-accepted threshold for a personal attack, in a manner that incorporates the substance of that attack into Misplaced Pages discussion.” I do not appreciate either that you suggest that I could have written an article about Hitler. I will follow the steps that are stipulated in Misplaced Pages about this matter.

You have also changed the original title posted by TalkAbout. It was “UN intervention for avyakt7 and 195.82.106.244.”

Yes, that is correct. I checked and there was no intervention on behalf of the United Nations - and it was an attempt at personal Mediation - and so I corrected that.

Indeed, this also raises the issue of BKWSU own exaggerated connection with the United Nations - of which the United Nations has cautioned the BKWSU - and that is an issue that we ought to investigate with proper citations at a later date.

If you read above, you will see that I clearly did not "suggest that I could have written an article about Hitler", I stated accurately that someone using the same IP address as you contributed the article on Adolf Hitler. As it is an educational facility that you work in, I suggested that you raise the serious misuse of IT equipment to the faculty members.

If it is a personal attack, would that also not mean that what you started and are continuing to doing is also an ad hominem attack designed to discredit any critical revellations based on citation, e.g. references to your own comments on "the bombs are ready ... they will be used" etc?

" 7) We, humans will destroy our planet. We have the means to do it now. Our technology “know how” have created the atomic bomb. Many countries have them. The bombs will be used. " Citations: grouptopic.com, space.com, infidelguy.com. fullcontactpoker.com

I think that it is fairly clear to onlookers that where you are coming from and what you are attempting to do. Your belief in a 5,000 year Cycle of time and "Destruction" as defined by the BKWSU. You start and continue an attack and then accuse another's defense to that attack using legalistic argument targetting the individual to distract for the internal reports they are leaking. It is very common cultic behavior and I caution you to refer back to your Senior Sisters for Shrimat before proceeing with this matter because ultimately it will only reflect badly on the organization, see . If you want to reflect well on the organization, my suggest is to co-operate on revealling and allowing access to the sources, citations and references from within your organization; starting with the Murlis. Thank you. 195.82.106.244 15:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear TalkAbout,

Please see my name above in 195.82.106.244 response to “searchin man.” Please see “searchin man” talk page as well. I know you can edit things out whenever you wish.. Do I need to ask you for permission to do the same?

195.82.106.244 expressed that he didn’t have no affiliation with BKinfo. I am certain that that is not true. I have substantial evidence for this. Do you want me to disclose it? This information is relevant to this wikipedia article, since it demonstrates that 195.82.106.244 is not a “non-biased” editor and thus, 244 is not qualified to write about Brahma Kumaris in an impartial manner. I needed to disclose that information here because is relevant to this article.

On the other hand, 195.82.106.244 discloses my real full name here and in another user talk page, threatens to contact the faculty at USF (my previous employer), searches and publishes about my personal information which is non relevant to this article. See the difference, TalkAbout? Finally.. I am not upset at all. All I want is for this article to be an accurate reflection of Brahma Kumaris, would you let BKs have an input on this article? avyakt7

avyakt7,

Look if you want to continue this, I imagine I can not stop you. As far as to any membership in a forum being a reason for disqualifying him/her from participating in activities on wikipedia I would like to point out the following. No individual is to be singled out...sussed out as a means to discredit his/her participation on a wiki. They could very well be members of the Gay BK forum and it wouldn’t make a grand difference here. Discuss the points here, point by point. Forum issues take to the forum, go to the OZ forum, go to the infogami blog.

From my point, I see there is no real open space for discussion in the OZ forum run by the BKs which you are a member of.
I don't see your theory up there (OZ forum), nor it being discussed by other members.
It appears to me that other active BKs are doing well and good in the BKinfo forum. It serves not only XBKs, but PBKs, active BKs , folks seeking spiritual discussions and NBKs (folks just wanting information, including journalists).
So, if they have a wide array of folks, why the problems? I did put in a second request to have you approved, but I will send in another asking it to be withdrawn given your goal, which would be to have individuals banned from wikipedia.
I see that the problems on the forum and Here started when you began to pick/squabble with other members on both venues.
I see that despite the fact that you bit off more than you can chew, you are still dead set on this (personalising things).

Do you think it would be fair to remove yours but leave his/hers up? Will you refrain from further activities to EXPOSE others. This is going the way of scientology in my view. I don't think threatening exposure, attacking the person rather than the substance/points merits well from a scholarly point of view and it is destructive to the process of communication/participation and good will.

I have the highest respect for people following their spiritual beliefs, having gone down that road myself and this process is to place the facts out there and let the individual decide on the path they are taking or if they want to continue on such path. Is also an information source for people on a global level that seek information on said organization. You shouldn't fear information, you shouldn't be fearful of the tenets being in the open, nor the practices. The higher road would be for example: Yes, we do belief we will be deities and yes we believe X and Y. Rather than trying to hide the sun with your thumb. Suppression of information is not wise nor a scholarly path.

I will ask you these three questions directly:

Do you believe you will be a deity?
Do you believe you are superior to others here on this planet because you are a Brahmin Soul?
Do you believe God speaks/is channeled via Dadi Gulzar in Mt. Abu?

Your reply to these three questions above will be the test of your stated will and intentions towards the others you have issues with here for me. PEACE TalkAbout 15:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

avyakt7 states, "195.82.106.244 expressed that he didn’t have no affiliation with BKinfo ".

You mean, "did not have any". What I said according to the Misplaced Pages archive was;

"I have absolutely no representative powers over any other contributor nor the website http://brahmakumaris.info. To the best of my awareness there is nothing that you could say constitutes a team effort, or if there is I am not party to it. I take personal benefit from and contribute to the above mentioned website, on an ad hoc basis, but to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that would constitute a team or organization effort or again, if there is, I am not aware of any. If pressed, I could tell you very little about any contributor to http://brahmakumaris.info other than what they have made public on that or the previous xBKChat.com forum and prefer it that way. Personally, I would say it is all in the public domain now."

Accuracy over slur, please. 195.82.106.244

First Warning and answer

1.Points: It should be no doubt now that user 195.82.106.244 is clearly and undoubtedly involved with a forum which is antagonistic to Brahma Kumaris, thus this article for which he or she is the main contributor and is clearly biased. Please demonstrate that user .244 the main author of this BK page is not affiliated with BKINFO. Because if HE IS: Then as the NPOV tags show: a)This article is bias. Please demonstrate the opposite. b)This article is using plenty of "weasel words" such as: "B.K.s believe that their god " Shiva Baba ","mediumistic female followers known as " Sandeshputris " or trance messengers helped add to their spiritual knowledge through psychic visions and allegedly direct contact with God.", "The version made more vague and palatable to Westerners is found here." This just an small sample on the first paragraph.The use of these words are non-scholar and bias; inappropriate for an on-line encyclopedia.

c)The article about BK does not comply with VERIFIABILITY according to WIKIPEDIA rules: "Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible." Please show the citations. DO not use BK literature for this, since it does not fit this requirement: ("We may not use primary sources whose information has not been made available by a reliable publisher. See Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability") and (Use sources who have postgraduate degrees or demonstrable published expertise in the field they are discussing. The more reputable ones are affiliated with academic institutions. The most reputable have written textbooks in their field: these authors can be expected to have a broad, authoritative grasp of their subject. In general, higher education textbooks are frequently revised and try to be authoritative.) Please demonstrate this in your article use these kind of citations rather than websites which do not follow this requirement. In your article to put something like: "Use of Violence: The sight of heavy stick wielding BK “brothers” is a common sight at large BK events. Police reports exist of said BKs kidnapping PBKs in cars, removing them to a distant location and “beating them black and blue”. In one incident, PBKs were beaten so “mercilessly” that they had to be admitted in hospital. In others even elderly women were manhandled. As similar events have taken place across India from Karnatak to Haryana. Police complaints were been filled, the BKs in one incident plea-bargaining in response..." and to put a link to a BKINFO site violates this rule, you are not using reliable sources as defined by WIKIPEDIA and it is obviously malicious.

These are just examples. Please respond to them. By taking the NPOV tag off the article, you are not following WIKIPEDIA rules. This is a warning to you. It will be followed up with WIkipedia admins if you don't stop this vandalism.

I am sure others will post their issues with this article. Now is the time.

72.91.151.117 Avyakt7

Please address the discussion Mr. avyakt7

avyakt7, I will ask you these three questions directly:

Do you believe you will be a deity?
Do you believe you are superior to others here on this planet because you are a Brahmin Soul?
Do you believe God speaks/is channeled via Dadi Gulzar in Mt. Abu?

Your reply to these three questions above will be the test of your stated will and intentions towards the others you have issues with here for me. PEACE TalkAbout 22:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear TalkAbout: Is this the best you can do? We are talking about this article in wikipedia (Brahma Kumaris). My personal website, is that.. my own business. Please concentrate on responding to the questions about user .244 involvement with BKINFO. Thank you. I will be more than glad to respond to your questions not related with this article once I am allowed to take part on the BKINFO forum.

Sincerely, AVYAKT7 72.91.151.117

72.91.151.117 avyakt7 Riveros 11, ET All,

OK Brahmin soul...I will State your case. Frankly, the OZ forum site was useless to me. No thinkers or perhaps not allowed to think. Now, as I concentrate here on what wisdom I shall plead for you, I first want an agreement that you will behave....as far as I can see Brother this is not Deity behavior by any means. I have great respect for BKsimon and others. I guess you have noted that even some heavy hitters from the BK World have joined. See, if you just limit the HOT temper you can have Great Churning sessions over there too. Albeit I may have to pray...meditate or elevate the thought process as this is no simple task you are requesting here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, what say you...Brahmin Soul? Yes, you will stop the personalisations and sussing out folks? I am sure some of the BK Souls would enjoy your company. PEACE/PLEASE/PEACE TalkAbout 23:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

72.91.151.117 avyakt7 Riveros 11, ET All,

You used your site for a purpose and thus made it public that you are PRO BK and even have a site set up for PR for said beliefs. So, I thought it (your site) of value as it shows great devotion to the FAITH and resources too. The questions I raised have every thing to do with this article. See, we have just brushed the surface and you must admit that most have been kind in doing so. Some of these beliefs are not yet in the full public view. But alas you raise a good point....

Are you ashamed of said tenets/beliefs?
Do you fear redicule for having said beliefs?
Should we explore these and add them to the article?

See, throwing the stone and hiding the hand doesn't work. You only raised more questions than you gave answers. Let the truth set you free. Please note that I have placed my final request on your behalf...from here on you will have to be a forth right Brahmin Soul and place said requests on your own. PEACE/PLEASE/PEACE TalkAbout 00:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

      Dear TalkAbout,
     I really like your style...No Kidding, you have class! I love the truth. That is Brahmin Behavior. 
     Do you realize that .244 has been misrepresenting  his affiliation with BKINFO? Do you realize that you are 
     supporting that behavior? See, a couple of lines is just enough. Best Wishes, 72.91.151.117 Avyakt7

Talkabout, I'm afraid it is you who is not addressing the discussion - see 'Searchin Man Complaint' section. This article is clearly under the control of a vandal and sockpuppeteer. Now at the very least those with a different POV should be allowed to display an NPOV warning. Please discontinue from vandalising the NPOV warning. searchin man 07:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man, Now, lets not be hasty, I said I would reply to your points and I will. I am seeking others intervention here as I honestly think I do not want to get in the middle of the activities that I do not approve of. First, Avyak7 ET All are in research mode. As to your request, it is under advicement. As said I will get to it, in due time. I realise time is an issue for you and will note that. Trying to Rattle me doesn't speed up the process. As, I recall I gave you some home work to address as well...!

So, before I continue please give me your honest word that you are not Avyak7! You will recieve your requested reply as well...in due time. You do still want that? If not please state that as well. As to an NPOV notice...because Avyak7 placed it there due to his personal issues is not warrented. I had higher hopes of communication with you but see it is the Ole Bully Pulpit at work here by the followers of the Brahma Kumaris. :( PEACE TalkAbout 08:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

TalkAbout stop removing the NPOV tag

Stop taking the NPOV tag from the article

Dear Talkabout,

This is Avyakt7. Please have .244 address all issues regarding the Brahma Kumaris talk page.
It is clear now that  user .244 has been misrepresenting facts.
Please do not try to go around this issue.' This is very important.
If you continue taking the NPOV tag off the article you will be setting an example of vandalism.
Yourself and .244 are not the only ones who can edit this page. An NPOV warning is not even changing
the contents of the biased Brahma Kumaris article, it is just stating that some of us do not agree
with it and that we would like to reach a consensus about it. Enough proof has been given.

Your loyalty to .244 is admirable, but please be reasonable, there has been a lie there, do not try to cover it. 72.91.151.117

Proof which demonstrates user 195.82.106.244 is part of the "team effort" on the BKINFO forum

Dear 195.82.106.244 ,

You still continue to modify my previous posts. You have gone too far and I will continue to follow Misplaced Pages procedures regarding the accuracy of this article. Please check out this Misplaced Pages official policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith

Please note:” This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include vandalism, sockpuppetry, and lying.”

Your actions and ways clearly fit the above.

User 195.82.106.244 is the main editor of this article which refers to Brahma Kumaris. User 195.82.106.244 is against this institution (Brahma Kumaris.)

I have a strong suspicion that 195.82.106.244 also posts as “Ex-L” in another forum, namely brahmakumaris.info. Ex-L, and most of the others on the forum including the administrator who write the news articles, are clearly against Brahma Kumaris as well.

Therefore, user 195.82.106.244 should not be allowed to have “sole proprietorship” of this article, as he or she appears to be trying very hard to maintain, which in fact is hurting the Brahma Kumaris institutional image.

User 195.82.106.244 has denied in this page any involvement with the Brahmakumaris.info (BKINFO) site. However, consider this: (Evidence from circumstancial to strong)

1)The writing style of “Ex-L” and compare it with 195.82.106.244 writing style.

2)There is an email which was sent by BKINFO to Brahma Kumaris centers requesting for copies of the organization “scriptures” (Murlis). The email header is below: Please note the source of it. (195.82.106.244

Received: from (helo=) by node-2.minx.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.60) envelope-from <info@brahmakumaris.info>) id 1GOZCu-000162-LL for centres@brahmakumaris.info; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 13:23:41 +0100

3) There is an email which was sent by BKINFO to members of their forum. (which I can provide) A part of it states: “There is also an "up and download" section in progress that includes many Murlis, here;

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/indexw.html

including an Anonymous dropbox for anyone that wants to provide news or information. No name or password required to enter.

Thank you all for your help and keep up the good work!”

THIS A VERY STRONG EVIDENCE:

This link: http://www.brahmakumaris.info/indexw.html is a link to an anonymous ftp server which resides in the following IP address: 195.82.106.244

It can be accessed by going this way: ftp://195.82.106.244 or http://195.82.106.244

THEREFORE; THERE IS A CONCRETE AND UNDENIABLE DIRECT LINK BETWEEN BKINFO AND USER 195.82.106.244 . He is part of their "TEAM EFFORT."

User 195.82.106.244 is running a server on that IP address. With a normal scan, that IP address will not show the current open ports since the server has been firewalled. However, with a more sophisticated scan when icmp packets are not used, that IP address has the following ports open : FTP, HTTP and PPTP. I have a hard copy of the scan I run on that IP address as a proof of this. I can email it to anyone who doubts the certainty of this proof.(avyakt7ATyahoo.c..)

I expect that user 195.82.106.244 will disable these features as soon as he or she reads this message. Please note: This is a concrete, strong and real proof of user 195.82.106.244 clear involvement with the BKINFO forum and probably also its administration. Something which this user has denied all along.

For those who believe that "pictures speak a thousand words", please check these ones: http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo1.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo2.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo3.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo4.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo5.JPG

My point is: It should be no doubt now that user 195.82.106.244 is clearly and undoubtedly involved with a forum which is antagonistic to Brahma Kumaris, thus this article for which he or she is the main contributor and is clearly biased.

These are the facts as I see them.

THEREFORE, after reading Misplaced Pages standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Neutral_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Handling_NPOV_disputes

"When all NPOV-related issues detailed on the talk page have been handled, the template should be removed from the article or category page. In most cases, however, the least cumbersome way of handling NPOV concerns would be to improve the article or the category description, so that it is no longer POV."

Thus: Please take a look at this link:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

  Unless there is proof that user 195.82.106.244  does not have any affiliation with   BKINFO

AND the article is discussed here by consensus to dismiss the tags below, NPOV tags need to be placed in this article. NPOV tags will be placed in the Brahma Kumaris article which I will revert back as many times as necessary if changed until further proof is shown in this talk page. This is necessary in order not to mislead readers by making them believe that this is in fact an accurate description of Brahma Kumaris. The following tags are appropriate for this article:

NPOV
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox and advocacy:http://en.wikipedia.org/Advocacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words

Also, it is very important to comply with this regulation: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Information_suppression

User .244 has not observed wikipedia standards. These are the points which user 195.82.106.244 has been neglecting:

   * Biased or selective representation of sources, eg:
         o Explaining why evidence supports one view, but under-representing (even deleting) opposing views in order to make an opinion appear more accepted/rejected than it really is.
         o Making one's own opinion look superior by omitting points against it, comparing it instead with low quality arguments for other POV's (strawman tactics), or not presenting the other as best it can be.
         o Finding fault with some opposing evidence (usually the easiest to attack, and often not a neutral assessment), and using that (again as a strawman) to dismiss or ignore other (often stronger) evidence.
         o Selectively citing a source or ignoring important caveats and limitations, in order to make a source appear to support a view or conclusion that is more extreme than the plain reading of the source implies. (Ie, trying to make a source say more than it actually says)
   * Variable or double standards, eg:
         o Citing lower quality evidence for one side but rejecting credible opposing evidence as inadequate.
         o Minimizing, trivializing or ignoring other citations that call one's opinion into question or that support alternative views.
   * Editing as if one given opinion is "right" and therefore other opinions either have no substance, or nothing to defend themselves with, and using this as a reason to under-represent it:
         o Generalizing an opinion held by "some" or "many" as if it is held by "all" (or "all credible") sources, while treating an opposing view as not being held by anyone credible.
         o Ignoring an opposing view, question or discussion point on the basis that those upholding it are claimed to be misinformed.
         o Not allowing one view to "speak for itself", or refactoring its "world-view" into the words of its detractors.
         o Ignoring or deleting views, research or information from sources which would usually be considered credible and verifiable in Misplaced Pages terms. (This may be done on spurious grounds such as not being "valid enough")
         o Concealing or misrepresenting (or non-neutrally representing) relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to judge their value.

User 195.82.106.244 please demonstrate what it has been asked above.. and I have a back up of this post, just in case you thought about deleting it.

Best Regards,

avyakt7

Thank you

Thank you for the best advertizement that we have been given in a long time, Luis.

Would any individuals interested in reading BK Raja Yoga teachings in their original form called the Murlis, please log in anonymously and download them from the address given above before the BKWSU tries to shut the server down.

I expect our traffic to increase significantly. 195.82.106.244 00:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

You are very Welcome!

Dear 195.82.106.244, It surprises me to know that you will not shutdown "Rumpus"! How about changing the link so your IP does not appear? SO now that your traffic will increase (I would like to see a copy of your "awstats" or perhaps "urchin"?)perhaps you will need to explain the meaning of the Murlis too...otherwise, all those souls downloading things will not have a clue of what is going on...Just a suggestion... oh yeah.. if they get stuck in "the cycle"... please pass them my way...You know how to find me. Now we know that you are capable of misrepresenting facts in order to post in WIKIPEDIA. Shall we trust you? Best Wishes, 72.91.151.117 Avyakt7

Reverting NPOV warning

Please note that an NPOV warning means that the neutrality of the article is disputed and is not a statement as to whether the article is or isn't neutral in itself. It is very clear from this discussion page that there is a dispute about the neutrality of the article and it is therefore inappropriate to remove the warning box from the article. The box should remain until all sides reach a consensus or a decision is made through arbitration. Any attempt to tamper with the box otherwise is an act of vandalism.

Please be advised accordingly 62.5.178.58 12:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Soul,

Thank you for your input. What you just said is consistent with Misplaced Pages rules. BTW, I don't have any relationship with this IP coming from Russia.

Best Wishes,

72.91.151.117 avyakt7

62.5.178.58,

The persons placing said NPOV are doing so as to cause....problems and to Bully people into not reveal the tenets/beliefs/practices etc.

You are problably part of this team as well....as avyakt7 seems to know who you are.

In addition avyakt7 and others are in the process of trying to intimidate anyone that places the truth. I would have more respect for someone taking it point by point rather than simply BEING A GANG OF BULLIES. Not very Academic and not very University like!

PEACE TalkAbout 15:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear TalkAbout ;

Please keep your cool. Here is my first tag to you. Here is a link to a wikipedia article that you may need to be aware of: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Staying_cool_when_the_editing_gets_hot To suggest: "Being a GANG of Bullies" is insulting and is not appropriate language in WIKIPEDIA. On more thing, If I say "I do not know this person" That is exactly what I meant.

72.91.151.117

OK. I am cool about analysing all this stuff.

The little bit that you are failing to do is offer any contrary information to suggest that the BKWSU does not teach the dinosaurs existed 2,500 years ago, God speaks to only them via a little old Indian lady or the world is going to end via a Nuclear Holocaust any minute, and you cannot escape that because you know it is all true. So what is your beef about?

Please be specific what elements you consider to be ;

NPOV
Weasel words
Non-compliant.

It is a very broad, detailed and well-referenced article. I cannot see any factual errors. There have been endless citations in support on this Discussion page.

The only thing I see missing is accurate accounting for the cult's worldwide financial status and charitable giving, especially in India. This really is down to you BK followers to provide those.

I am removing the tags from both this page and the topic page; a) because such tags don't belong on the discussion page and, b) you have not actually substantiated which data you are referring to. Otherwise it just looks like you are throwing enough shit until some of it sticks.

Thanks. 195.82.106.244 00:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

72.91.151.117, Riveros, Avyak7 etc etc,

Here is my reply.

I do not want to know, how you gained access to the site. I am only interested in discussion of the points, not any thing else. I don't have personal issues with you but I have tried to be of help to no end. Now, I won't reveal the back workings here, but I think from an academic point this approach is not wise. I do think it is of no point to discuss private matters in public, but I think you get the gist. Please do not contact me via e-mail to try and suss out who I know or what my interest is.

Since you are using multiple IPPs and I can't trust even with whom I am having discussions with...duality moment here. As to being insulted, please give a good explanation of what is going on here. The attempt to erase the facts, choosing to continue in arguments rather than discuss the points. I have had a better time in discussions of medicine than here. I don't want to waste my time in engaging in attacks of the person rather than the issues. So, unless you are going to take up a point to discuss (other than individuals) than I have no further communication. The idea of the technology team being based in FLORIDA is not lost on me. I am willing to state the following:

Do you believe you will be a deity? No, I do not.
Do you believe you are superior to others here on this planet because you are a Brahmin Soul? No, I don't see my self as superior to others.
Do you believe God speaks/is channeled via Dadi Gulzar in Mt. Abu? No, I do not, I think the PBKs are onto some thing, in that GOD can be found in your own room. See, not hard at all to do! As, to trying to have me BLOCKED when the TEAM is in working to place NPOVs yet admitting that they are not questioning the validity...is too transparent. I will start meditating and ask that some force of Eternal Peace come upon this approach soon. As I have stated in the past, if after someone has the facts and chooses the PATH, I have nothing but respect for them and give them my full blessings/good thoughts/Be honored in that they are true to their quest. My background you see is in the freedom and access to information....that is the only GRAND motivating factor here. Be true to your beliefs! PEACE/LOVE/PEACE TalkAbout 00:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This Discussion as been archived without a remotely adequate response to my '9 point reply', in the Searchin Man Complaint section which provided substantial, unequivocal evidence that the article this discussion refers to is in the absolute control of 195.82.106.244, a sock puppeteer who has continually misled over his identity(s)and a vandaliser of the comments of others, with an extremely jaundiced opinion of the Brahma Kumaris. The need for an NPOV warning could not be more stark. searchin man 01:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

No need to panic your reply is not forgotten, simply click the little cabinet. See, BKsimon filed his talk page in the cabinet and no one said a word, including you. So, relax it is there and I have a copy of it and the other matter yet to be addressed. I send you good thoughts. Oh, be more specific as I have more young ones than old ones. PEACETalkAbout 01:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

Do to your commencing on Personal Attacks your reply will be addressed to the community and not to you directly. Debasing the level of interation is unwarranted and frankly below standards of common communication. Trying to suss out wiki members by a hit or miss approach is not too SpiritualTalkAbout 02:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Focus on the article

I am in no way connected to BKWSU, either pro or con, and I have no interest in changing that. I am a long-time Wikipedian, and an admin, and I want this page to move toward an acceptable encyclopedia article. The reasons for the NPOV and other tags must be delineated, no matter how blindingly obvious someone might think the reasons are. Those issues must then be addressed, either by proper citations, or by removing unsubstantiated claims from the article. The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant. This discussion/talk page is not the appropriate place to discuss those questions. Use this page to discuss the encyclopedia article only. –RHolton ≡– 01:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the voice of reason, at last! 195.82.106.244 01:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I have restored the POV tag to the article. Do not remove it until things have been resolved. The other tags may also be restored if specific reasons are shown--but in general, one tag at a time seems sufficient. –RHolton ≡– 02:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

RHolton, thanks for dropping by and I really appreciate you restoring the NPOV tag. It’s a small step towards fairness, but if it survives the night then it will be a significant one, as it will easily be the most substantial edit to do so other than that made by 244 or Talkabout, since I’ve been looking in.

I am not best placed to discuss the article content. I am not a member of the BK nor an ex member. However, my support for the NPOV was because others who were qualified to contest the articles content and attempted to do so, where either stonewalled by proven sockpuppets or had their comments removed from the discussion section and their citation requests pulled down. I have supplied detailed links of examples of where I saw this happening, in a 9 point reply to the user Talkabout in the Searchin Man complaint section of the Sept – Oct 2006 discussion archive. searchin man 03:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOVs for Discussion

OK. NPOVs for Discussions. One at a time. No more personal attacks. No more crapflood. No more discussing the discussion. If you use three equal signs before and after a topic, like this "===Topic===", we can create a manageable sub-list of points to discuss. My suggestion is that we work to create the list first, have a little cooling off period, order them according to the article and then discuss them. New issues arising can be discussed in new headlines. Alternatively, we can work our way down the page paragraph by paragraph.

I would like to raise the the issue of membership, financial status and charitable giving, perhaps the later the UN relationship. I hope that BKs will come forward with the pre-requisite figures. 195.82.106.244 03:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Please add your NPOV points below ;

Financial status and charitable giving

Both figures from all zones please, Americas, India, Australasia, Africa etc.195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Membership figures

I have in my possession a letter from the BKWSU stating that they have "no membership" and merely operate an "open door" policy. (Pressumably open door unless you are a PBK). Alternatively BK administrative head Jank Kripalani states they will have 900,000 followers this year. Across the internet figure vary widely from 450,000 to 800,000 but may of these would appear undated or out of date. Obviously, big numbers constitute good PR, "900,000 people could not be wrong" so what is the official figure.

A question to ask here is, what constitutes a "member"? How long does it take to become a BK? How and at what point is one recognized as a BK? And does one ex-communicate oneself by leaving as the average lifespan is said to be about 5 years? Do only a whiteclad senior BKs or centre-in-charges count? Or reliable, 7 day a week Amrit vela and Morning Class attendee. How do they calculate their laity and what status do they have?

The organization is not forthcoming in these figures nor how they are culculated and so I think we should remove any claims in size. Likewise, how many centers to they have? I can only see tens listed on the internet and yet they claim thousands. This discrepancy is too large to be scientific. So can BKs accurately qualify the numbers of dedicated centers and separate them from the number of "Gita Pathshalas", or family homes used as makeshift centers? Again, actual figures rather than PR 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

New Religious Movement or Cult?

I'd say cult is problematic, as it almost always has negative connotations. As the Cult article says, no group ever calls itself a cult, only the group's opponents. On the other hand, I'm not particularly satisfied with New Religious Movement. Any other suggestions? –RHolton ≡– 04:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Its very difficult and it throws us into the very deep end of the academic and politic thought on the matter. I would say that not only opponents use the term cult. Indeed, Dr Eileen Barker who must been seen as a leading proponent, if not initiator, of the term "New Religious Movement" also uses the term cult and admits its interusability. Cult really has a neutral meaning, devalued by sensationalistic journalism and oppositional activists and its hard consonants.

We also find ourselves at odd between the camps of sociology and psychology. If psychology identifies a series of psychologically coercive practises, and a NRM uses most or all of them, at what point does it cross the line? For example, given this list; I would say that the BKWSU uses most. The compromise would be to say, "of which some/many see as a cult", or "of which uses practises some/many/psychologists identify as coercive and used by groups identified as a cult.

The BKWSU's own position is that they are not a cult; they are the one, only, true religion and the inspiration of all other religions and God comes to speak to them only. Every other religion is impure. Being Millenarianistic, believing in an immanent "Destruction" of the world, this immediately, in my opinion puts them in the cultic "stage" in their development. However, if we look at the Jehovah Witness, Seventh day Adventists, Mormons etc, we see how groups evolve from cultic stages, to NRM, to established minor religions usually with a re-writing of their credo, as the BKWSU is engaged in. As an aside perhaps it is time for academia to view cult as a stage in social and religious development development rather than an end point of definition for all such groups. See reference to average lifespan above and in cited documentation. 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I think both terms should be avoided, primarily because they evoke negativity (per the previous statement).

A broader reference term such as 'doctrine', maybe more suitable as it doesn't narrowly focus on religion (both so called new and old) and it provides an even plateau for comparison with all schools of thought. 67.79.31.88 18:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem is we are not documenting merely the BKWSU Doctine, we are documenting the BKWSU as a whole. If there was a good argument or argeement to split the topic into doctrine from the historical social movement, then fine. NRM is a positive term.

Can we start by comparing BK lifestyle against academically accepted cult or psychologically coersive techniques given above? I would say that the doctine is operated within a cultic model, e.g. the secrecy surrounding the Murli teaching, the division between the "chosen few" Brahmins and the impure untouchables. Thank you. 195.82.106.244 18:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

RHolton,

As to Cult, New Religious Movement or sect, I would offer that the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is more a cult in my humble opinion.

They control through tenets ones toileting.....if there is no shower well you best not have that bowel movement. This instruction is even imposed upon children.
One cannot enter areas of a centre unless they "meet higher requirements of being pure for six months and have showered". Most students do not realise this; it is only once you enter deeper that this is known.
One must detach (have no contact) from ones family and friends.
One must do service to ones family and friends: offer the knowledge and try and convert them.
One must detach from ones children, as they are an obstacle to higher "spirituality".
One must must not eat food prepared by non-BKs including ones own mother. Their food is impure, they are impure.
One must follow a BK diet, often not very nutritional but by BK standard "Pure".
One must not marry, one must be celibate.
There is to be no sex, not even within marriage.

These are just some of the few things they control in members/followers lives via tenets/beliefs. I would say it is more a cult as the controlling factor is very clear. Members of such a cult, new religious movement, sect will not see themselves as such, many suffer greatly once they realise they have been in a cult and there have been many suicides and many that have contemplated suicide post Gyan experience.

In fact the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University tries to state that they are not a religion so as to bring folks in with promises of “meditation”, “stress reduction”, “cultural understanding” and even “weight loss”. Oh, and there isn’t any “University”, unless the location is in the subtle region (heaven to non-BKs). PEACE TalkAboutTalkAbout, 20:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the best solution would be to find a reliable reference (not BK or former BK) that talks about BKWSU and quote them. We could also mention how BK's refer to themselves, with an appropriate reference.–RHolton ≡– 23:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

RHolton,

Below please find the quote from the Spanish Academic Report under lists of cults. This is referenced rather then the mention of the French Government report due to its academic value, in-depth analysis and conclusions about psychological outcomes. Below is the link to the French report as well.

Enumeration of the followers of sects in 1995 by UNADFI Follers

Cults in France

• Raja Yoga or Spiritual Organization of Brahma Kumaris 200

List of Cults

Characteristics, functionalism and psychological consequences of the cult phenomenon

Santa Cruz de Tenerife Official College of Psychology

Groups of Risk and Dangerous Cults

Eloy Rodriguez-Valdes, Psychologist and Sexologist

In 1989 – The Spanish Parliamentary Commission: There was a commission for the Study, not investigations. None of the proposed conclusions by the Parliamentarian Commission has been put into practice.

1995. - The National Assembly of France: One of the best informative /reports (Commission of Investigations), Profound and strongly made until this moment at present on the phenomenon of Cults. Realised by the Deputy J Guyard. It denounces a grand number/quantity of groups as destructive cults. In them, all are included the following:

Anthropos (Ágora)
Asociación L.J. Engelmajet (El Patriarca)
Brahma Kumaris (Universidad Espiritual Internacional)
etc.

Características, funcionamiento y consecuencias psicosociales del fenómeno sectario.

Colegio Oficial de Psicólogos de Santa Cruz de Tenerife

SECTAS DESTRUCTIVAS Y GRUPOS DE RIESGO

Eloy Rodríguez-Valdés

Psicólogo-Sexólogo

1989.- Comisión del Parlamento Español: Se crea una comisión de ESTUDIO, no de INVESTIGACIÓN. Ninguna de las conclusiones propuestas por la Comisión Parlamentaria se ha llevado todavía a la práctica

1995. - Asamblea Nacional Francesa: Uno de los mejores informes (comisión de investigación), más fuerte y profundo hecho hasta el momento presente sobre el fenómeno sectario. Realizado por el diputado J. Guyard. Se denuncia a una gran cantidad de grupos como sectas destructivas. Entre todos ellos cabe destacar:

Anthropos (Ágora)
Asociación L.J. Engelmajet (El Patriarca)
Brahma Kumaris (Universidad Espiritual Internacional)
etc.” PEACE TalkAbout 02:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

On the basis of the examples of cult-like behavior listed above, you can count me amongst the apologists and I would argue NRM. I do not think that they are particularly unique nor accurate either in detail or understanding. Some are merely a Western misinterpretation of cultural practises widespread in the Middle and Far East, i.e. food politics of the Indian caste system, toileting in tropical climates, monastic traditions all be they practised within domestic environments.

The third party sources are quite sound. The problem with falling back on other academic sources in that we fall back on the divides between apologists, apostates and the fads and fashions of academic funding. Religious sociology is a small field in which one man's funding application is a cult, when anothers is an NRM. Cult's political value has fallen whilst NRM's has had a minor revival and is sustaining itself. Just.

What is the difference between a minority religion and a cult? Just being weird doesn't make the BKWSU a cult. I have given a reference of psychologically coercive techniques from a regular expert witness above. What raises the cult question for me would be that within the framework of an absolute Millenarianism, the prediction of an immanent End of the World any day;

Undue influence: mind control - tick
Charismatic Leadership: Claiming divinity or special knowledge and demanding unquestioning obedience with power and privilege. Leadership may consist of one individual or a small core of leaders - tick
Deception: Recruiting and fundraising with hidden objectives and without full disclosure; use of front groups - tick
Exclusivity: Secretiveness or vagueness by followers regarding activities and beliefs - tick
Alienation: Separation from family, friends and society, a change in values and substitution of the cult as the new family; evidence of subtle or abrupt personality changes - tick (which is what the author above is stating)
Exploitation: Can be financial, physical, or psychological; pressure to give money, to spend a great deal on courses or "service" projects, inappropriate sexual activities even child abuse - tick
Totalitarian Worldview (we/they syndrome): Effecting dependence, promoting goals of the group over the individual and approving unethical behavior while claiming goodness - tick

The BKWSU is certainly not a sect or sub-sect or another religion either by the definition of its channelled teachings nor its own beliefs about itself. According to its own beliefs of a 5,000 Year repeating Cycle of time, they are the foundation of all other religions, e.g. Christ will come to them now and study only to come back in 3,000 years to teach Christianity again after their heaven on earth is over. 195.82.106.244 21:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Sevak Ram's role in the founding of the movement

One important issue we have to resolve is the role of Sevak Ram, Lekhraj Kirpalani's business partner, in the establishment of the Om Mandali "group", see . The author is the said piece is or was a BK and so there have to be some grounds for inclusion. Would any BK care to offer the official history of his role? 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject India

A bot has identified this is an article from inclusion in the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_India project and as "stub class". I have removed the tab as it was not introduced nor discussed and the topic article is certainly by no means a stub. This raises valid discussion of its own. Personally, I see the BKWSU as an international and not merely Indian organzation.

This could conceivably again lead to forks in the article. 195.82.106.244 18:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_India tag, though I've rated the article as a "B" class (I wonder how the 'bot decided this was a stub?). These sort of tags get applied to articles all the time, usually without discussion; we should feel free to alter the rating though, and I'm open to discussion on the "B" I gave the article. By the way, having a WikiProject_India tag doesn't (to me) suggest that the article is only relevant to India. –RHolton ≡– 23:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Talk page etiquette

Please, everyone be careful when you edit this page. In very recent history, an editor inadventantly obliterated another editor's post (which was later restored by a third editor). Serious misunderstandings begin this way.

Also, when archiving previous content, always archive in context. Don't pull pieces of a section out of the main talk page to the archive. Do the whole thing or nothing.

I'd also beg people to restrain themselves from messing with other people's posts, even if you're just wikifying or fixing a spelling error. If you must do this sort of editing, make sure that you do not in any way alter the content of the post, and do this sort of editing separate from adding your own contents. The problem is that these kind of edits make it almost impossible for someone attempting to follow the flow of conversation in the history.

Finally, please retain the posting order: add your posts to the bottom of the section, and if you're creating a new section, add it to the bottom of the page. Yes, there are rare exceptions, but let's keep them rare.

Thanks!

–RHolton ≡– 23:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Let us focus in the article

Dear Souls, Om Shanti! Hope you are doing well these days… I would like to acknowledge the timely input of RHolton; his input allowed some of us to smell the roses, go to the beach, have regular meditations, etc… Things are great when you do not have to revert a long time expected and well deserved NPOV in this article. Thanks! Thus, now is about the article, “Past is Past…” Here I go...:

Let me start with this very important Misplaced Pages policy: VERIFIABILITY

1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

Please keep in mind point #3.

Now, let me dissect the article paragraph by paragraph. As we move along, besides the "verifiability" policy; I am sure other policies will come up, which I will make sure to provide.

The first paragraph of the NPOV article in question: “Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya or the BKWSU, is a new religious movement that began in 1937 based on the experiences of Lekhraj Kripalani in Sindh (present day Pakistan).The BKWSU teaches of a form of meditation involving spirit channeling it calls Raja Yoga, in confusion with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga, through Raja Yoga Centers worldwide."

Questions:

1) What is the source for the above mentioned statement?

The source may need to be academic, researched by holders of graduate degrees. Would you kindly point out your source? Please check this page out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Finding_good_sources. Please, if applicable provide the ISBN number since readers would like to double check the source.

2)Brahma Kumaris is being labeled as "New Religious Movement" in the article. Sources? please.

3) 195.82.106.244 pointed out in RHolton’s talk page the following: “We are going to have problems Mr Holton because you have admin status to throw around but your opening comments are factually inaccurate. The BKWSU was not founded in 1937, the precursor Om Mandali was World Renewal Trust followed. The "University" is not real university and as such not founded, it might be misleading. Additionally, the founder was not Brahma Baba but Shiva Baba. And the citation are clearly available and non-contentious. So caution please if we are to be accurate. 195.82.106.244 18:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)”

Accordingly, why is not “ShivBaba” in this paragraph? ("the founder was not Brahma Baba but Shiva Baba.") Is 1937 the real date? Sources, please...sources.

4) What is the source for the "The BKWSU teaches of a form of meditation involving spirit channeling it calls Raja Yoga, in confusion with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga, through Raja Yoga Centers worldwide."? I am really curious about the source of this excerpt.Please provide the references. As an aside, I just want to comment that I do not foresee any problems with Mr. Holton’s input, on the contrary; his impartial input is truly appreciated.

Note: If there are no verifiable references for these points, the paragraph must be deleted from Misplaced Pages.

avyakt7

One of the problems in your approach Luis is that you ignore what you do not like to see or cannot win, go for the personal attack, adopt a full on and aggressive distortions to the facts without addressing the multifold citations that have already been offered to you. As you see above, we have the "The Spanish Parliamentary Commission" and "The National Assembly of France" both label the BKWSU a Cult. Is that not satisfactory? Are we happy therefore to label the BKWSU a cult instead of a New Religious Movement? I am actually happy either way but NRM is more diplomatic.

Sources do not need to be academic, for example, an article on Christianity can perfectly well quote the Bible as source . An article on the BKWSU can reference the Murlis or its own materials. The guidelines state "easily verifiable", so, for examples, if I state that the BKWSU has been accuse of torture and kidnapping and then offer the reference of the Deccan Times that is perfectly adequate. If I give an actual date of a Sakar Murli, any interested researcher can attended their local BK Raja Yoga center and request a copy of it to check or the see the increasing number published on the internet, e.g. .

With reference to Spirit channelling, the easily verifiable source is the BKWSU's own teaching manual mid to late-1990s which has been reproduced in full here, . In which it is clearly stated by the BKWSU that the method by which so-called Shiva talks through Lekhraj Kirpalani is spirit channelling. Just out of interest, what else would you call it?

With reference to the various stages and dates of founding in the history of the BKWSU, I am very happy for you to provide your detailed information. The legal entities, e.g. Word Renewal Trust, might be the most easily referenced and there is going to be debate as to when the spirit Shiva established what when as many BKs will argue that it was actually done via Lekhraj Kirpalani's business partner Sevak Ram through which Shiva explained to Kirpalani what was happening. As the early gatherings were informal, I think it will be very hard to put precise dates but am surprised the dates of the initial possession were not recorded.

Otherwise, what do you want to do ... erase the entire article? But whilst you are here, please address the issues raise above re Sevak Ram, finances, membership and centers. Thanks 195.82.106.244 01:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear .244, I am glad to see that my post is complete… Now, let me address your points: Please read the post in Spanish which TalkAbout referred to: what I read there is not the word “cult.” I read “sect” Do you see that? (In Spanish both words are different) The note posted had Eloy Rodríguez-Valdés as the author. He is a psychologist. Do you believe that a Psychologist is in fact authoritative to write about religion and spiritual movements? Please follow this wikipedia rule: “published by reputable sources.” Since you mentioned about Christianity, here is a link to the wikipedia site: http://en.wikipedia.org/Christianity Please note the neat references. As far as “sect, “ cult” or “NRM” what should be posted in the wikipedia article is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Cult.2C_sect Then, yes.. I agree with you…According to Misplaced Pages (see link) the term NRM should be used, and “sect and cult” avoided. See? That is reasonable. I am helping you with this source to support the addition of NRM in the article. Of course, that is not how Brahmins see ourselves, or some else but since we are in WIKIPEDIA, we need to follow WIKIPEDIA conventions.

Please take a minute to read the following: “Misplaced Pages articles include material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. That is, we report what other reliable sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate. In order to avoid doing original research, and in order to help improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles, it is essential that any primary-source material, as well as any generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data, has been published by a reputable third-party publication (that is, not self-published) that is available to readers either from a website (other than Misplaced Pages) or through a public library. It is very important to cite sources appropriately, so that readers can find your source and can satisfy themselves that Misplaced Pages has used the source correctly.” From: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_original_research

When writing an article, it is very important to know what is a “primary source, ” “secondary source, “ etc. An on-line newspaper it is not a “reputable source.” unless it is in the same category as the “New York Times.” See this article in the same newspaper you used in your link: http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/oct172006/update8203720061017.asp See their use of proper English, grammar, etc. This is far from “reputable.” As far as the article you linked, note that is one sided (Bias). We do not know the comments or arguments of the other side.

Let me reiterate: Reliable publications: “Reliable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher with a good reputation for scholarly publications.” In you example about Christianity, the sources are taken from “known academic publishing house or university press.” When you say: “Sources do not need to be academic.” That is true; however they must be reliable. Your newspaper link nor the site BKINFO fulfill this requirement. The same holds true for any publication made by a Brahma Kumaris publication. You cannot use that as “reliable” source because it does not fit the concept of “reliable publication” according to Misplaced Pages. Please see the link above. You cannot “just give a date of a sakar murli” you need to quote that from a reliable source. See that? With that in mind, you have not disclosed any “reliable” source for that first paragraph. In short: Please comply with this requirement. Use a scholar or a reputable source to back up your statements. Do not use a Brahma Kumaris publication because it does not comply with the concept of reliability stated by Misplaced Pages.

You wrote: “Otherwise, what do you want to do ... erase the entire article? But whilst you are here, please address the issues raise above re Sevak Ram, finances, membership and centers. “ I do not pretend to erase the whole article, but if you do not present any reliable sources, according to wikipedia we will need to consider that. As far as the other issues, if they are in the current article, they may need to be addressed at the proper time. Please do not try to modify or add any more information to the current article.

Best Wishes, avyakt7

So you are saying to us that the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is not a proper academic institute like any other University and that dcuments or papers produced by its senior faculty members are not permissable? That all and any publications from it are unreliable by Wiki standards?

That is a strange position for you to take and for me to argue against. If it is a University, then surely its materials are perfectly adequate? Please confirm the BKWSU's status in your mind and why you would exclude materials from it in this article.

That is a bit like the Scientologists arguing, "you cant write an article on Scientology if it includes materials Scientology produced". If we look at the Scientology article, we discover that such materials are perfectly acceptable, and it is not even a University. 195.82.106.244 19:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear .244,

Let me write the WIKIPEDIA policy one more time: Reliable publications: “Reliable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher with a good reputation for scholarly publications.” This is self-explanatory. BK press is not included here. See that?

Brahma Kumaris is a Spiritual University. It is not an academic university. University is derived from the Latin universitas, meaning corporation (since the first medieval European universities were often groups of scholars-for-hire). In BK we have seniors who have achieved a high degree of spiritual awareness, thus our "faculty." Even though, someone may have several academic degrees, he/she may not fit that qualification (spiritual awaraness). Please do not argue against.. just provide the reliable publications as established by WIKIPEDIA...and remember those are not my rules, those are WIKIPEDIA's.

BTW, Since you have mentioned scientology, here is a thread in the scientology talk page FYI:

"Misplaced Pages is real clear on that. First everything has to be "published by a reliable source" or it can't be included WP:V. This is to keep out original research, ideas posted on bulletin boards, blogs, newsgroups, rumors, and such. Without that, Misplaced Pages would soon be glutted with all kinds of advertisements and stuff which was not at all encyclopedic. Its got to be good, reliable, published information. Well, the Scientology data is something like 40 million words. But you are hard pressed to find good, reliable publication against it. And critical stuff is mostly not about aspects of Scientology but more like, "critical to the reputation of Scientology". I've yet to find a critical, well reasoned, article about Scientology Technology. Terryeo 09:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)"

As you can see, I am not the only one asking for "RELIABLE SOURCES." Please comply.

Best Wishes, avyakt7

And direct scriptural quotations, I see no problems in that?

The problem with your responses is that your and the other's agenda is always too apparently and you keep chosing to ignore what you dont like to read. Were you involved with Scientology before Gyan because what the BKWSU team working on this is up to is just like Roll Back, Black PR Rundown and Truth Rundown Training.

Quoting Misplaced Pages legalese is like quote the Bible as a defense. Quoting Scientologists as witnesses in defense ... !

In reply to the use of BKWSU materials, that would include training manuals, Murlis, Jagdish Chander's work and BK websites, I offer from verifiability;

Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources of information so long as:

It is relevant to the organization's notability;
It is not contentious;
It is not unduly self-serving;
It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject;
There is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it.

re Cult status, those reports above translates as "cult". If a respected national assembly finds a group to be a Cult, then it is worth nothing. On the basis of what you have written, I submit that we really have to note the BKWSU's fraudulent representation of itself as a University, although I accept increasingly BK members are becoming "scholars-for-hire", and its cult-like nature in the article as a whole. Do you have any citations from reliable sources that have investigated the BKWSU and found it not to be a cult? What else could it be? I am not say that it does not do good, we should document that too but it is for you to provide verifiable sources. 195.82.106.244 23:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear .244, I am glad you are finally using wikipedia to support your claims! Please do not start name calling and going into personal attacks. Remember this line you wrote:"The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant." You are the main editor of this article, thus you need to provide reliable support when requested. Otherwise, anyone can post whatever they want about BK. See that? Just concentrate on the article. OK? This is going to be a long one, my friend. But I needed extra time to obtain all the info you requested. I hope you will do the same for me when I request a "reliable source."

If you read in the same policy you quoted (verifiability) under “sources of dubious reliability” you will find the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Verifiability&diff=81858242&oldid=81856805 In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact- checking facilities or editorial oversight. Sometimes a statement can only be found in a publication of dubious reliability, such as a tabloid newspaper. If the statement is relatively unimportant, remove it. If it is important enough to keep, attribute it to the source in question. For example: "According to the British tabloid newspaper The Sun..." As a rule of thumb, sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about themselves. below However, even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources. October 16, 2006.

I am showing this link from October 16 so, readers can note the changes that have happened since then (a few days ago.)

There are 3 problems with your (.244) citing of this policy:

1)The sources that you mentioned qualify under “sources of dubious reliability” since as I mentioned before, they do not belong to the category of “reliable sources” until it is quoted by a reliable publication. Therefore, these “dubious sources” can only qualify as sources for this article IF they are being used in an article about “ourselves” thus, the author(s) of this article are far from qualifying of being considered “ourselves.” As a matter of fact, it is an article written by a group (or individual) against “ourselves.” (The BK) Therefore, your claim does not fit this rule.

2)Quote:“Even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources.” Claims that main editors are making in this article clearly fit under the “libellous” label (harmful and often untrue.) You cannot use those articles to do that. UNLESS you have a reliable source.. a “credible source.” (which you don’t.)

3) Note that out of all the bullets you pointed out to support your use of “dubious sources” the following do not apply:

It is not contentious: Clearly what the editors wrote in this article is contentious.(As explained above.)
It is not unduly self-serving: Far from true. It is completely the opposite, the statements in the article, the written form of it have a high tendency to discredit the BK. The use of “weasel” words to discredit the BK movement is high.
It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject: This article has been referring to several other groups and how BKs are the “bad guys” when dealing with them. Your links about obscure newspapers and bias websites lacking reliability are the proof for that.
There is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it: Proof? How?

Therefore, please use reliable sources. Otherwise this article lacks validity.

I would like to note the style in writing this paper. It is a standard on all good articles to use citations. You can use the Harvard style for instance. It is not just a matter of saying: “I used so and so” cite his work accordingly and show us where it belongs in the article. Anyone can write footnotes with different things, but they have to match, so a reader can check the accuracy of your writing. As it stands right now, we see plenty of books and websites, but the article does not show at which point they were cited. You need to do this, however; it will be a waste of your time (but a good typing practice, nevertheless)unless you produce “reliable sources.” Let me give you a link that you can use for citing sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:CITE

Now, I see that you are adding references and there is a new user who is making “small, almost unnoticeable changes in the article,” “wikifying it.” Old habits are hard to break... Thank you wikipedia for the back up copies.

Also, let’s get the tasks straight here. It is your job to provide sources. Why? Because you are the main editor of this article. That is not my job. If you feel with the authority to write about an institution which you do not belong to and whithout a doubt feel animosity towards it, then the very least you can do is to show reliable sources for your writings.

Nevertheless, to set the example about “doing your work the right way” let me share with you this scholar source: Richard Barz, Ph.D. Professor Barz has visited Mt. Abu in 1967 and 1984. You can see his qualifications and expertise in the link below .244…PLEASE: this is what you need to provide: “reliable sources.” http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/index.php/Dr_Richard_Barz

I contacted him and below you will see his reply in relation with the “cult” word that you seem to enjoy so much and use without caution: (I had changed our email addresses, in order to avoid spamming, but I know you can get that info, right?)

Forwarded message ----------

From: Richard Barz <richard.barzAT??.edu.au> Date: Oct 18, 2006 2:04 AM Subject: Re: About Brahma Kumaris To: Luis Alberto Riveros <riveros??ATsomesubtleplace.com> My view is that the Brahma Kumaris are a religion. I don't feel that they are a sect as that would imply that they are an offshoot of some other religion, which is not the case. I wouldn't use the term cult for them as it has a feeling of secretiveness which does not apply. The Brahma Kumaris could also be called a new religious movement since they are a modern form of a Hindu religious tradition that is very ancient.'

Some of the articles that Professor Barz has written about BK:

/Brahma-Kumari's: vrouwen aan de (spirituele) macht/ in
Inforient* Richard K.Barzand H.Pauwels, 8:1, pp.17-24 (1988)
/A reinterpretation of Vaishnava theology: from the pushtimarg to

the Brahma Kumaris/

/In *Devotional literature in South Asia* ed.

R.S. McGregor, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, pp.298-313 (1992)

Article in *Devotional literature in South Asia* ed. R.S. McGregor includes a good bibliography of materials on the Brahma Kumaris up to 1992.

http://prp.contentdirections.com/mr/cupress.jsp/doi=10.2277/0521413117

You can read his scholar article about BK in this book. .244, to be an editor requires some work. It is not a matter to throw in whatever comes to mind.

Last but not least… hope you are fluent in Spanish before you pretend to make me believe that “cult” and “sect” are the same. Keep in mind that there is a strong bias in Spanish speaking countries. The religion there is Catholicism. Anything else is usually labeled as “cult”, “sect”, “nrm” etc.

Therefore, as it stands: The first paragraph of the article has the necessary support to name BK as either NRM (according to Misplaced Pages) or a “Religion” according to Professor Barz expert opinion in this subject. Anything else in that paragraph does not have any reliability as of today. If you provide the “reliable sources” then we can move on into the second paragraph. Please do not delay, I am eagerly looking forward to it.

Best Wishes .244,

avyakt7

Professor Richard Barz and the use of Psychologist to determine Psychologically Coercive Techniques

Luis,

no, I am afraid the first paragraph is not done. We still have governmental assemblies stating "Cult". Additionally, you are ignoring the BKWSU's own published literature both in terms of publicity, teaching manuals and Murlis which are both entirely supportative of the statements in the first paragraph, which the BKWSU finds credible and are fine by wikipedia standards. If your argument is to disclaim what the BKWSU states about its own activities, then you will have to produce citations that counteracts the BKWSU's and God Shiva's own claims.

If you want to go down in the history of the 5,000 Year Kalpa as the BK Brahmin that argued that BK Raja Yoga was a "Vaishnavite religion", that is your business. For the sake of our BK Brahmin audience (this wont make much sense to non-BK Brahmins), you as a BK are saying that "Gyan" is Vaishnavite "Bhakti" because a "Kali Yugi Shudra" said so!?! (Apologies to the good Professor but please appreciate I am using BK terms to illustrate here not my own).

I will state that the protection of "God's Words" channelled through the medium of Lekhraj Kirpalani, called the Sakar Murlis, behind pgp encryption and password protected websites is secretive and the re-editing of the same manipulative of the truth. I am interested in Professor Richard Barz's speciality in the Vallabhacarya sect but he must not be aware of the above. I understand how, as Lekhraj Kirpalani was related to it (a fact that I was challenged on by a BK), it might be possible to misconstrue a connection, but I find it hard to see how any religion that "worships" Shiva can be called Vaishnavite. Surely, it should be Neo-Shiavite? Shiva is not an incarnation of Vishnu, and I do not need citations to back that up! This brings his understanding, or exposure, into doubt. How much access he has been allowed to the original Murlis, is he aware of the child sex abuse cover up, the violent persecution of the PBKs, the failed prediction of Destruction in 1976 and so on?

As regards BK Raja Yoga being Bhakti; unfortunately, Professor Barz is entirely contradict by God Shiva in the Sakar Murli and numerous BKWSU published books referenced on the topic page. So which takes precedence? As a BK, you are essentially contradicting the BKWSU own publilcations and falsifying what you know to be true.

As far as the use of psychologist to determine psychologically coercive techniques in religions - whether new, orthodox or cultic - who else would you use? A theologian cannot be expect to be expert in psychologically damaging practises. A practitioner or recruiter even less so.

BTW, personal emails of this sort are not acceptable by Wiki standards. But, by all means, if you want me to start emailing around for a second opinion, I will do so. Thanks. 195.82.106.244 05:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Confusion between classical or Patanjali's Raja Yoga and BK Raja Yoga

For those not expert in yoga, a quick look at the Misplaced Pages Raja Yoga article will help you appreciate what Classical Raja Yoga is. A yoga form with over 2,000 years of tradition, it is clearly entirely different from BK Raja Yoga. That the two are named the same is confusing, perhaps deliberately so on behalf of the BKWSU.

The actual date of inception of BK Raja Yoga is not know but it must be after 1936-1937 when the spirit entity named after the Hindu God Shiva first possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani and started channelling his "Knowledge" through him. It is recorded that in the early days of the Om Mandali/BKWSU Lekhraj Kirpalani was not the medium through which the knowledge was channelled and it is also recorded in the Sakar Murlis and BKWSU publications that the "Knowledge" and practise was not delivered complete. Therefore we cannot say exactly when BK Raja Yoga was first taught but we can safely say it was only in the last 70 years at the very most and most likely much less.

Increasingly, the BKWSU and senior faculty members of the BKWSU, such as Brian Bacon and Mike George of Oxford Leadership Academy. are referring to BK Raja Yoga as being "ancient" or "centuries old", e.g. at the 2004 Parliament of the World's Religions the BKWSU Erik Larson, Dadi Janki, Jayanti Kripalani did talk on "The Wisdom of Listening to God: Ancient Raja Yoga of Brahma Kumaris" or "Oxford Leadership Development Programme Learn the art of reflective inquiry, a deep reflection process based on the centuries old practice of Raja Yoga Meditation." Now, this I submit is both clearly untrue and that it does not require an expert academic opinion to point out the difference. Indeed, if a specialist opinion is required then it ought to come from a recognized yogic authority such as Vivekananda. Personally, I do not see anything contentious in this.

BK Raja Yoga is new, less than 70 years old not centuries. Patanjali's Yoga Sutras or Classic Raja Yoga is an enitrely different practise and more than 2,000 years old. I state that it is a confusion that needs to be clearly stated at the beginning of this article and so the statement as given does not need changed. If BK do wish to remove the statement, are they also going to assert that BK Raja Yoga is the original, Classical or Ancient Raja Yoga on the Raja Yoga page as well?

Thank you. 195.82.106.244 06:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

such intense debating seems to be going on, it is only and article!!! what's the big deal, why shouldn't people be able to read this stuff......this is a free world and Wiki is about expressing that, surely if the the Gyan of bks is the truth then the philosophy of the cycle cannot be stopped and will be fulfilled as it has been every 5000 years......it seems strange to me that bks take all this as such a threat Green108 11:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

User: 195.82.106.244 last chance to offer reliable sources

Dear .244, Thank you for your quick reply. Let me be clear this time (perhaps I wasn’t before.) You either provide reliable sources or that first paragraph will be erased, according to Misplaced Pages rules. Before doing that, I will post a paragraph considering the evidence that we already have to replace the current one. I believe 3 days for you to produce reliable evidence for that first paragraph is plenty of time. If you did not have it and wrote the paragraph anyway, then … you don’t have evidence, don't waste our time here. As simple as that.

.244 we all know how easy it is for you to write and send emails around. Just remember to post a website with the qualifications of your source so I can double check it. You know I will.

Please let us know about your qualifications before you try to argue here about religious studies and research. Show proof of that. Let me copy again what you wrote: "The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant." That applies to you too. Do not forget that.

Oh yeah.. I was forgetting about your friend, Green108… What can I say… If you do not like this debate.. just don’t look at it. If you think this article is not a big deal, good for you.. Others and myself included, do not think so. On the same token, If you like this article, then .. this is your chance to submit reliable sources so it can stay here.

As always the very best for both of you, avyakt7 13:55, 21 October 2006

why do you say your friend green108, and 'what can I say'.................why do you have opinions of me, i don't know who you are, i just logged on here and saw the debate had gone off at a strange and very tense angle and so asked a question, hoping to lighten the mood a bit. Green108 20:33, 22 October 2006

Dear Green108,

Here is why:

Please look at the archives. July 2006 is a good date.

Any luck with those "reliable sources"? That will lighten up the mood quite a bit.

Best Wishes, avyakt7 21:36, 22 October 2006

Luis,

I am sorry but I have been too busy working on an information pack for academics and educational institutes to have answered you sooner.

As far as citations, why bother putting up any pretense of a conversion. You have never been interested in listening. I am perfectly happy with the references and citations as given, including the BKWSU own publications and the scriptural references as given by the Sakar Murlis which contain all the knowledge.

Are you going to condescend to a response as to why they are insufficient? 3 Days should be fine for me to complete this .info pack and start mailing them out. 195.82.106.244 06:43, 23 October 2006

Cult status, Jews' Karma, Earth's Axis tilting and Shiva entering Lekhraj Kirpalani

OK. I have a citation from The London Observer dated September 1996. The London Observer is a Conservative broadsheet newspaper of public record, first published on 4 December 1791, and easily comparable to the New York Times that published the recent Misplaced Pages article. Indeed the British media, whether right or left wing, is general trusted more worldwide for its impartiality and detachment.

The London Observer records such BKWSU beliefs such as "the axis of the shall straighten from its angle of 23.5 degrees to the truly vertical", "The continents shall come together once more" and "There will be springtime all year long ... a paradise of endless happiness" following Destruction.

It goes on to state that the "The Brahma Kumaris emerged in India in 1937, when a wealthy Hindu diamond merchant, Dada Lekhraj, began to claim that Shiva, God the Supreme Soul, had entered him to begin the task of creating a new world order" and the book "Adi Dev - The First Man" by Jagdish Chander.

Now, my question here, what is it called when one disincarnate spirit or soul enters into the body of another, takes control of it, starts talking etc?

In plain English, that is Spiritual possession, or " the concept that gods, daemons, demons, animas, or other disincarnate entities may temporarily take control of a human body, resulting in noticeable changes in behaviour" to quote the wiki itself. There are no other word for it. Put that together with the BKWSU training manual, the Sakar Murlis and quotes given from Sister Jayanti regarding chanelling and we have the first paragraph. Nothing controversial there; we have a paper of note, scripture, a published author and a senior administrator of the organization backing it all up.

In the article the journalist asks the BKWSU for comment on "whether six million Jews had died at the hands of the Nazis because of their 'bad karma'?" and the newspaper was told that, "Yes, indeed they had." My suggestion is that we include this in the section on Karma.

On a separate issue, the newspaper reports that London based Cult Information Centre, which monitors the activities of new religious movements, describes the BKWSU as a "religious cult". "The Brahma Kumaris believe that the world is about to end in apocalyptic destruction, ushering in a Golden Age in which group members will be divine beings living in palaces 'decorated with multicoloured lights'."

I look forward to the convolutions of Wiki policy Luis is going to try to overcome this. My guess is that he is just going to try and use aggression and accusation to ignore it all, where I am sure that real academics and educational faculty members will not. 195.82.106.244 06:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

* Lastly, LUIS, can you please work out how to use the Wiki because your signature/date stamp is not working. Use 4 tildas and check your user preferences please, e.g. ~~~~ will add a name and datestamp automatically. Also, make it easier for us to follow what you write, perhaps you could have a play in the Sandox first to get a grasp on formatting, indentation etc.

Thank you again. 195.82.106.244 06:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Tuesday October 24 2006 is the deadline

Dear .244, Thank you for you advice about the "sandbox," I agree that I am becoming more familiar with the policies at Misplaced Pages than the way you edit it...

Since you are preparing an "information pack to academics" right now, that means that you do not have the "reliable sources" as specified by Misplaced Pages to support your statements. Thus, you wrote this article without considering this important fact. Let me remind you that those references that you have are not cited at any point in that first paragraph in question.

As far as your article in the London Observer, please show us the site or make it somehow available for us to see it (your BKINFO site perhaps) As far as the first paragraph is concerned there is little that could be used. As a matter of fact, let me point out a reference which you added in this article (under bibliography/references) but have no cited at all: Dr. Kranenborg's work: http://www.cesnur.org/testi/bryn/br_kranenborg.htm Please take a look at that article. Well written, in a non bias way, concise, "weasel words" are out of the question unlike the current article. See the difference? According to that article it says:"The movement was founded in 1936 in Karachi by Lekh Raj who was born in 1876." Thus, guess which "reliable source" is more reliable for an on line encyclopedia? Your newspaper or a scholar article. BTW, I obtained the permission from Dr. Kranenborg to quote his article...also take a look at the label he uses to describe BK: "Religion" or "new religion" thus in agreement with Dr. Richard Barz.

I know "bkwatch" has been very busy lately... hope to see a "reliable source" from your part tomorrow.

Best Wishes,

avyakt7 14:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Confluence age phases

This is a citation request for the following paragraph,

"Therefore their knowledge has become modified according to necessity in order to sustain their faith. At first it was taught 50 years for destruction and 50 for creation, then 60 / 40, now the Brahma Kumaris tend to try and avoid the issue."

Please provide this otherwise I will delete the paragraph. Bksimonb 15:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry Avyakt 7, I can't be bothered to look up whatever it is your so upset about, but I would like to know why you are harbouring personal feelings and opinions about me, I have never spoken to you before as far as I am aware, it just seems strange, love is the key Green108 17:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Green108, I have the highest opinion about you. I don't recall otherwise. Are you upset about something? Please be "light"... I totally agree with you, love is the answer... Now, down to business, my friend: I think Bksimonb raised a good question there, how about responding to it?

Best Wishes Green108, avyakt7 17:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

yes i am upset by your comments, I quote 'Oh yeah.. I was forgetting about your friend, Green108… What can I say'. This implies some feelings on your behalf about me that I don't understand, also I don't like you saying you have the highest regard for me, are you saying you know me?.......who are you and why do you have opinions about me? I have asked you three times now, why don't you answer,,,,this is the business I care about, not the silly article, it's not a point scoring game, it's just an article about an organisation, so when I just happen to come on here to see how it's going, I read comments from a stranger that I feel are not in the highest regard at all, if I am wrong could you please explain it to me. Green108 15:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Green108, Here is my email:avyakt7atyahoodotcom. You can write me here to talk about this matter, if you wish. This space is to discuss about the "silly article" only.(quoting as you wrote it) Any reliable sources to support this article?. Best Wishes, avyakt7 15:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Avyakt 7, you made those comments about me right here on this discussion board, so I feel here is the place for you to explain them, I have no wish to enter into private communications with you, please just explain yourself as I feel insulted, I just want to know what's behind them, otherwise I will make a formal complaint about you to Wiki Green108 16:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Strongly opposed, see following citations. As far as a complaint about BK Luis, please do. it is about time someone did. 195.82.106.244 23:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Confluence Age of 40 years / 1976 Destruction citations

You are correct to state this this paragraph should be changed. It should read that "at first it was taught that the Confluence Age was 40 years and then it was changed to 50/50, 50/60 ... etc.

The first reference or citation for this is a "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishvarya Vidyalya, HQ Pandav Bhavan, Mount Abu" teaching aid poster "The Ladder", , in which it states clearly, "Auspicious Confluence Age (Sangum Yuga) 40 Years".

Also published and dated in 1967 is this BKWSU teaching aid poster "Lakshmi and Narayan" , which clearly states;

"Corruption, Irreligiousness, unrighteousness, vices, insolvency, and suffering will come to an end in Bharat within 9 years and Golden-aged, deity world-Sovereignty of Shri Lakshmi and Shri Narayan will come to be established after forth-coming huge World Destruction within 9 years" .

which would equate to 1975-6 - or 40 years after the initial possession of Lekhraj Kirpalani and start of the channelled teachings.

This and the other supporting citations, e.g. quotes from published books, magazines and scriptures, have all been previous given on these discussion pages and indeed the teaching posters are listed as a references on the topic page. Please do your homework first before making NPOV revisions.

Scriptural references for 40 years are; Avyakt Murli 25/10/69, 05/11/70, 03/02/71, 09/09/72, 04/02/74, 09/11/74 etc., as given here . As an example quotation from the 1969 Murli in which Shiva Baba says,

"The final Destruction of the whole World takes place within 6 years. Those who tell it to be 7 years have their position reduced"

Scriptural references for 50 to 60 years are; Sakar Murli 2004/02/04

Sadly, this underline how little due care and attention you are giving any given references that oppose your organization's current PR and, perhaps, how unaware or misled you have been of your own organization's history. If this is so, please ask your Senior Sisters why these changes have been written out of your organization's history, why the scriptures are being changed and what the significance of the 1976 date for Destruction was. Please note, the original posters were displayed in the Delhi center for many years with a sticker over the 40 years changing the date but these editions distributed worldwide. If you realy need me to pull out more references I can but I think we have established clear balance of probability, on sound citations, that I am correct.

Please note the organization recently celebrated its 70th Anniversary. 195.82.106.244 23:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

First paragraph modified

This is the way the first paragraph of this article will look tomorrow unless "reliable sources" are presented today (10/24/06). Needless to say, any attempt to revert back without providing the required support will be considered vandalism.

Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya or Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is considered a new religious movement according to John Wallis, Ph.D or a religion or as stated by Professor R. Kranenborg “Brahma Kumaris is in fact a new religion, originating within Hinduism but going its own way.” The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (BKWSU) teaches a form of meditation denominated Raja Yoga. According to Kranenborg: “The entire way of the Brahma Kumaris can be characterized as raja yoga. One should not think here in the first place of classical yoga, as described by Patanjali. Central to raja yoga is that one becomes connected with the Highest Soul and with the highest in oneself. It is a way to the true self, which is to be expressed in everyday life."

Strong objection. There is clearly no consensus on this. Especially whether or not Shiva is the highest soul. You do not provide any citations to suggest that.

There is no need to remove the core millenarianistic issues of Destruction and the Nuclear Holocaust that is so central and identifying to the BKWSU and you make no justification as to why it should be removed.

You have been provided with adequate citations to counter your position. Your POV is not in a position to judge what is vandalism or not. What is currently written is accurate. It is just not to the taste of the BKWSU PR department. 195.82.106.244 22:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I am citing Kranenborg. He is a Professor, he has done research in this subject. Show your research counteracting this.

This paragraph, (first one) is referring to what is BK? what is Raja Yoga? and when it was founded and by whom?. I could add the "millenarian" label if you feel appropriate. After all Christianity is considered a millenarianistic religion as well, however; I do not see that in their WIKI page.

You have provided several books and links which do not match the content of this article. As we discussed before, BK material is out of the question unless it is quoted by a researcher. avyakt7 00:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Origins

The movement was founded in 1936 in Karachi by Lekh Raj Kripalani who was born in 1876. "When he wanted to withdraw from this life in 1936 so that he could devote himself to the spiritual life, he had a radical religious experience. He had the feeling that he had come into contact with the Supreme Soul or God; at the same time he experienced himself in this encounter as an eternal soul and the connectedness of that soul with the Supreme Soul.”

References

^ according to wikipedia policies
Culture and Religion 2 (2001)"The problem of tradition in the work of Anthony Giddens." John Wallis, Ph.D University of Warwick, UK.
As suggested by Professor Richard Barz, Senior Lecturer, Faculty of Asian Studies. The Australian National University.[http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/index.php/Dr_Richard_Barz
Reender Kranenborgh from Free University of Amsterdam

Best Wishes, avyakt7 22:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Strong objection again.

Kirplani did not feel, it is cited clearly in BKWSU own publicity material that "God entered him". Whereas the initial possession by the so-called "Shiva", or "Supreme Soul" of Lekhraj Kirpalani, and the ensuing psychic visions of Destruction, Vishnu, souls leaving body etc, may have taken place from around 1936, the formation of some type of organisation, took place in 1937. Again, you have had the citation given to you many times.

"From Landmarks in the History of Prajapita BrahmaKumaris Ishwariya Vishwa-Vidyalaya" - which is the BKWSU own webpage it states;

"(1937) - Formation of world's first Trust of women and Baba's surrender of all property to the trust ". In the year 1937, a spiritual trust was constituted and Baba surrendered all his movable and immovable property to a committee of women and girls. Never before, in the history of the world had any mate surrendered all his belongings to a trust, constituted only of ladies. Nowhere had women been given such an honour, as here, to head and run a spiritual organisation. Baba called them Bharat Mothers and said that these would open the doors to paradise by educating people to be pure."

I am afraid this underline how far out of touch with the reality of even your own organizations published history and how far you are pushing your own organization's PR agenda. This is not a Neutral Point of View. "An exception to this rule of thumb is the technical use of this term in sociology, which is quite neutral (i.e. small religious group with novel religious beliefs and a high degree of tension with the surrounding society). However, the author shouldn't use the term in that sense without explaining exactly what he/she is doing, since that meaning is unfamiliar to most people. The adjective "cultic" (cultic group, cultic behavior) is in such cases preferable, as it is used in sociological context referring to the technical meaning but rarely in everyday language referring to the everyday meaning of cult."

On the basis of the Wiki reference you are giving, I am fine with it. The Brahma Kumaris are a cult, exhibit cultic behavior and I am happy to follow the guidelines and write the article around why, as it suggests. These discussion pages are a fine example of the tensions both within and without the organization, made worse by the secretiveness and dishonesty over its own history .

The Observer (London) is dated 6 October 1996. Article by Mick McGovern and is availabe from their public records office. Your organization's London center will have a copy of it. All you BKs are aware of the veracity of what it being stated here and the contradiction of the academic's impressions by the BKWSUs own records. What reward in the Golden Age do you expect to gain by covering up the truth of God's actual incarnation onto Earth. See your own website here Luis, God has come. No feelings, no inspiration, Shiva incarnated or possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani.

195.82.106.244 22:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

We are celebrating our 70 anniversary. Did you know that? Let me see, 1937 plus 70 years is... We are still 2006. Professor Kranenborg has the right date. The current article is wrong. Simple math. avyakt7 00:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

(This was deleted before.. I can put it back again.) 72.91.4.91 00:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

70th Anniversary of what? The incarnation of God into Lekhraj Kirpalani? The formal institution and entrustment was 1937. 195.82.106.244 00:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear .244,

Please show your reliable sources to counteract my researched position. Please note that I am citing every single line of the paragraph.Don't raise objections for the sake of it. Take the time to go into every document which I am citing. You will find everything in there. This is not PR, this is called academic research, something which the current article lacks.

I am waiting for your academic researched articles, books etc. which should match without a doubt the paragraph in question. Your objections have no support of "reliable resources." Please see that without "reliable resources" which support the paragraph in question, this article has no validity as far as being considered encyclopedia material.

If you revert this paragraph without proof (one more time...reliable sources) it will be vandalism. Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. Best, avyakt7 00:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I have Luis. Your organization's own published material - copiously provided here - are utterly adequate by Wiki standards. 195.82.106.244 00:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Reliable sources, please... 72.91.4.91 00:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I have Luis. Your organization's own published material - copiously provided here - are utterly adequate by Wiki standards.

From reliable sources; "Material from self-published sources, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information in articles, so long as there is no reasonable doubt who wrote it, and where the material is:

relevant to the self-publisher's notability;

not contentious;

not unduly self-serving or self-aggrandizing;

about the subject only and not about third parties or events not directly related to the subject". End of the argument. 195.82.106.244 00:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

.244 fails to provide reliable sources matching his paragraph.

Dear.244, We will go back to the "cycle" of these articles. I wrote before, way up above...that you cannot use those sources and I gave reasons for it. Let me paste it again here. You have failed to provide reliable sources after the 3 days. All you are doing is arguing without support from reliable sources. Thus, the paragraph will be changed. Unless you show an accurate citation referring to that paragraph and using the Bibliography which you supplied, if you attempt to revert the article will be considered vandalism. You know, I will revert it back as it happened with the NPOV.

Here one more time: There are 3 problems with your (.244) citing of this policy:

1)The sources that you mentioned qualify under “sources of dubious reliability” since as I mentioned before, they do not belong to the category of “reliable sources” until it is quoted by a reliable publication. Therefore, these “dubious sources” can only qualify as sources for this article IF they are being used in an article about “ourselves” thus, the author(s) of this article are far from qualifying of being considered “ourselves.” As a matter of fact, it is an article written by a group (or individual) against “ourselves.” (The BK) Therefore, your claim does not fit this rule.

3) Note that out of all the bullets you pointed out to support your use of “dubious sources” the following do not apply:

It is not contentious: Clearly what the editors wrote in this article is contentious.(As explained above.)
It is not unduly self-serving: Far from true. It is completely the opposite, the statements in the article,

 the written form of it have a high tendency to discredit the BK. The use of “weasel” 
 words to discredit the BK movement is high.

It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject:

This article has been referring to several other groups and how BKs are the “bad guys” when dealing
with them. Your links about obscure newspapers and bias websites lacking reliability are the proof for that.

There is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it: Proof? How?

Therefore, please use reliable sources. Otherwise this article lacks validity. Best, 72.91.4.91 12:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Whole sections are being Pruned off by Avyakt7

Avyakt7 Luis et All/BK Tech Team are deleting whole sections while claiming to be adding citation:http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Brahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University&diff=next&oldid=83276240

Destruction has been provided with evidence on the very page.
Deleting information with citation is not proper.
Making the main paragraph into an advert for persons cited in wrong. Citations go into the proper area. There are only the points you choose to take to suit your interest/promotion. Will return back to discuss the other points in this area.

So, once again the FULL TIME TECH TEAM is doing a hacket job on the article without denying any of the information or willing to answer "ONE" question posed to them. PEACETalkAbout 14:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Please Calm down talk about

Dear TalkAbout:

Here it is what it was removed as I stated before:

I am citing Kranenborg. He is a Professor, he has done research in this subject.
Show your research counteracting this.
This paragraph, (first one) is referring to what is BK? what is Raja Yoga?
and when it was founded and by whom?. I could add the "millenarian" label if you feel appropriate.
After all Christianity is considered a millenarianistic religion as well, however;
I do not see that in their WIKI page.You have provided several books and links which do not match
the content of this article. As we discussed before, BK material is out of the question unless it
is quoted by a researcher. avyakt7 00:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Talk About show us you research on this topic. At least one reference pointing to your article should be there.

Please do not make me repeat the same "record" over and over...Read my posts and show your research articles and then we can discuss this, otherwise; the page will be reverted. .244 has been warned and now you are being warned. Please show RELIABLE SOURCES. That is all... Thank you. Best 72.91.4.91 14:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

History

Now that the references match the opening paragraph and the "origin" header, let us focus on the section which I named "History" to avoid having two "origin" headers. Under History, user .244. please submit your reliable sources which are easily verifiable under Misplaced Pages rules to support that paragraph. Look forward to reading them. Thank you. 72.91.4.91 13:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I am particularly interested in this statement: "Dada Lekhraj, known then as "Om Baba", in turn denounced the Congress as "Kansa" or wicked and under pressure of Hindu public opinion, the Sindh government reluctantly banned the Om Mandali, which went to court and had the ban order quashed." Sources?

and this one: "spending their time in intense spiritual study, meditation and alleged self-transformation. During this time, mediumistic female followers known as "Sandeshputris" or trance messengers helped add to their spiritual knowledge through psychic visions and allegedly direct contact with God." Sources? Note the use of weasel words.

and of course, i find this very interesting: "the community moved to Mount Abu, mainly due to the religious resistance to its activities in Pakistan." Sources, please?

BTW, both of your links about the "history" of BK do not have all the extra "flavor" (for lack of a better word)that you have added. Without sources to back this up, it will be deleted as well. Your turn. Best Wishes, 72.91.4.91 19:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I cannot see anything distasteful, I can see caution in making unsubstantiate claims. What citations can you offer that anyone has been "transformed" by BK practise? It is not exactly a measurable scientific term, is it?

The sources you have already been given and had pointed out to you many times already. What is the problem with them? 195.82.106.244 20:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)