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|title = Misplaced Pages 'intentionally' distorts history of the Holocaust, study claims
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|quote = For example, in the entry "Collaboration with the Axis powers", a section on Poland talks about the Jewish councils (Judenrat) and depicts them as cooperating with the Nazis. The councils, according to Misplaced Pages, had "Jewish-run governing bodies in Jewish communities and ghettos."
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== United States Collaboration ==

Is well known that many bussiness men and bankers help the Reich financing the rise and take of power of Hitler and the construction of its industrial and militar empire. This aid was not something atypical, it was one of the fundamental reasons Hitler could get his country out from a Crisis and a post-war era without problems. Harriman, Bush, Sullivan & Cromwell, Kuhn and Loeb families and banks and the General Motors of JP Morgan, IBM, Rockefeller's Standard Oil, and Ford Motors companies help the economical grow of the Reich substantialy
Someone who speaks better English than me could talk about it?
See: ]

== Switzerland ==

This country is not mentioned yet but is very important to know the total collaboration of Swiss banks in the removal of holocaust victims bank accounts and other indirect collaboration with the nazi regime. That's because Hitler didnt invade Switzerland. The neutral nation was not so neutral. Nestle also collaborates from Switzerland with the nazis.

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== Collaboration in Poland ==

It's truly interesting to see the country that produced collaborators only on the individual level has the most prominent notice in this article. This is truly astonishing. I was striving to find well-known names of Polish collaborators but was capable to find only 3 deserving any attention. I've included these individuals along with the related pictures. Cheers] (]) 04:22, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
::I’ve closely reviewed some references provided in the Caveats part of Poland section and regrettably, have to say that some don't match writing that was inserted. I’ve fixed some of it but now I’m contemplating if we really need Caveats segment at all? This division has been created very recently and doesn't deliver any worthy data to the article. Any thoughts?] (]) 05:11, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
::: Feel free to incorporate it into the main section body. ] (]) 14:02, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
:::: This is wrong. The whole paragraph is how Poland was innocent and provided resistance, when the title of the article clearly says '''Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II''' and that is what the whole section should be focused on. With all due respect, it should be completely rewritten.] (]) 19:23, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

== Inaccurate addition ==

In the Poland section of the article the sentence recently introduced reads:
”'''The question of Polish complicity in the Holocaust has proved controversial in Poland itself'''”
It is backed by citing 2 media articles. One from the American LA Times: http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/13/local/me-9923
and one from the Israeli Ynet news:
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4745850,00.html
How do these 2 foreign media publicists prove Polish "complicity" in the Holocaust being controversial in Poland itself? There is not a word about it and I have read the articles entirely.
On top of that, it is linked to the expression “controversial” to ] article. This doesn’t make any sense and needs to be corrected.

Related discussion can be found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:François_Robere#Let’s_rest_a_little_Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II
] (]) 07:26, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
:The wording has been changed from what it originally was, by yourself, and {{user|François Robere}}. I find it perplexing that one would take this to talk in that regard since you made some of the changes, but that's just me, I guess. The wording was originally attempting to be supported by the source, and the changes moved it away from that.

:https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II&diff=next&oldid=825865100
:First version:
:''Indeed, there is widespread ]''

:https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II&diff=next&oldid=825917115
:Second version, <small>(which confused The LA Times with Bloomberg)</small>:''
:Some media outlets such as Bloomberg and BBC suggested a widespread ]''

:https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II&diff=next&oldid=825865100
:Third version:
:''It is believed by many that the Poles are complicit in the Holocaust''

:https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II&type=revision&diff=826057499&oldid=826052393
:Fourth version <small>which added the Ynet link</small>:
:''The question of Polish complicity in the Holocaust has proved ] in Poland itself,''

:This answers why it doesn't connect to the current wording.
:] :] 08:34, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


:: Yes, that’s is apparent to me also why the fourth version developed to something bizarre as this:

:: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II&diff=826056976&oldid=826052393

:: Every time I fix it, soon it is being turned into something different, without citing proper references.
:: So this time again, I’ve modified it to reflect the sources supplied:

:: ''The issue of Polish collaboration with the Nazis and complicity in the murder of Jews during and after the Holocaust has been addressed by the global media and historians alike, including Poland itself''...
:: I also correlated the Kielce Pogrom as well as Jedwabne Pogrom into the entry. And here is my plea to you people, if you choose to modify it again please, please support it by proper references. ] (]) 09:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

::: {{ping|R9tgokunks}} I'm certain in my original wording, I've only softened it up to try and get everyone in consensus. We have sources suggesting denial on all levels, from the commoner on the street to government officials and researchers in key positions. If this isn't "denial" I don't know what is, but ] seems to prefer we didn't mention any of it as such. ] (]) 14:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

:::: Look R9tgokunks, I’ll allow myself to be straightforward here.
:::: '''No''', you haven’t softened anything, neither you achieved everybody
:::: consensus, nor introduced any proof that Polish “complicity" in the
:::: Holocaust is being controversial in '''Poland itself'''.
:::: All you have performed is a bold reversal to the bizarre phrasing. Consider reviewing the references given again and I'll get back here at the later time.] (]) 16:20, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


== France: do we need this milhist here for context? ==
::::: 1. Please indent your text properly on talk pages.
::::: 2. You're not following who writes what.
::::: 3. You say there's no controversy. What is the common perception as you understand it, then? ] (]) 17:08, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


it could probably help another article if not:
::::::I’m thoroughly explaining that the fact that there is a level of controversy surrounding alleged Polish complicity in the Holocaust throughout the World, especially within Israel and Jewish American groups, but in Poland itself this is not an issue AT ALL. Poland at at-large denies any involvement in the Holocaust other than sporadic acts of violence on the individual level. ] (]) 17:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Vichy was also reluctant to either disarm or surrender its naval fleet in ] to the British, who worried that it might fall into German hands. Eventually the British ] sank or disabled most of the ], killing over a thousand French sailors in a July 1940 ].<ref>See, for example, Winston S. Churchill, ''The Second World War'', Volume 2: ''Their Finest Hour'', London & New York, 1949, Book One, chapter 11, "Admiral Darlan and the French Fleet: Oran"</ref>
::::::: That's '''exactly''' the point about Poland, and hugely ironic at that. Nevertheless, you bring us back to my original phrasing: "Indeed, there is widespread denial of any complicity of ethnic Poles in the Holocaust". Are we now in agreement? ] (]) 18:07, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


{{reftalk}}
::::::::No François, you see by wording it this way the entry implies that Poland denies without any evidence an indisputable fact of Poland’s collaboration in the Holocaust. But in reality, these allegations are being challenged by Polish historians who support that view by their own historical study. ] (]) 18:49, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 April 2024 ==
::::::::: First - no, it's not. I've used the phrase "any complicity" rather than "the complicity", which is neutral. Second, I provided multiple recent sources disputing your scant early sources that claim the opposite, plus sources that explain how denial and revisionism are manifested in Poland and why research is so lacking. You've provided nothing to counter any of it. If I were less of a gentleman I would call you out on your own denial - "it didn't happen, but don't say I said so. And by the way - it's Only Israelis, Americans and Jews who claim otherwise, but here's a Jewish-American source that agrees with me, so I'll take it." ] (]) 19:17, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


{{Edit extended-protected|Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy|answered=yes}}
::::::::: {{ping|GizzyCatBella}} You provided two 2003 with limited scopes (one about Warsaw, one about post-war events) to contradict a 2013 sources with a broader scope (multiple areas, across several years). This suggests both ] may be an issues, as well as ]. That's why I asked for specific quotes or page numbers that show contradictions. It shouldn't be so difficult, as we're dealing with numbers orders of magnitude apart. ] (]) 19:43, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Please correct the opening comment tag and the opening reference tag in the following text in the References section:


<code><nowiki><~-- ref name="WSP-Ponary">{{in lang|pl}} Czesław Michalski, {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070207041704/http://www.wsp.krakow.pl/konspekt/konspekt5/ponary.html |date=7 February 2007 }} (Ponary – the Golgoth of Wilno Region). ''Konspekt'' nº 5, Winter 2000–2001, a publication of the ]. Retrieved 10 February 2007.</ref> --></nowiki></code>
:::::::::::I appreciate you being a gentleman François :) but I insist that
:::::::::::the original wording was misleading, I believe unintentionally
:::::::::::but it was. Anyways, I think we should take a break from updating
:::::::::::this article because I'm sensing some anger developing between
:::::::::::you and some other editors. You guys have very strong opinions
:::::::::::on this sensitive issue, so I somehow understand that. That's, why I think the pause is needed to cool things down.] (]) 19:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


I think that the correction should be:
:::::::::::: It is a strong subject backed by strong evidence, from historical studies to very current affair, and they all scream "denial" for anyone who's not deeply in it already (a law? seriously? what normative government with nothing to hide does that?). There's also that magic word we haven't mentioned - "antisemitism" - which is prevalent in Poland since days immemorial, and underlies all of the issues this article is about, but less directly relevant to some of the arguments made here. At any rate, I'll leave that sentence for the night; in the meanwhile tell me how do you prefer to address denial in a non-judgemental way. "Addressed by global media" and the like is non-informative. By the way - my intent is and was to incorporate the "caveats" section in the rest of the section, which seemed apologetic to begin with, but some consensus has to be reached first about this content. ] (]) 20:04, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


<code>'''<font color=red><nowiki><!-- <ref</nowiki></font>'''<nowiki> name="WSP-Ponary">{{in lang|pl}} Czesław Michalski, {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070207041704/http://www.wsp.krakow.pl/konspekt/konspekt5/ponary.html |date=7 February 2007 }} (Ponary – the Golgoth of Wilno Region). ''Konspekt'' nº 5, Winter 2000–2001, a publication of the ]. Retrieved 10 February 2007.</ref> --></nowiki></code>
::::::::: About "": I usually agree (in fact, in a previous revision I've removed some titles you gave to some people), but in this case there's a reason for that: You're quoting the Schudrich in his capacity as Chief Rabbi, which I contend isn't in a position to convincingly refute specific claims made by Grabowski et al. We don't need the "prominent", but we don't need the Rabbi either. ] (]) 20:04, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


=== Tag ===
{{ping|E-960}} It's a 2003 book about Warsaw that supposedly refutes a 2013 one about Poland - it's legitimate to ask for a clarification. Also, your reversal undid more content than just the tag. ] (]) 18:07, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
::That's why right in the article text you have this statement "...disputed by prominent researcher Efraim Zuroff." So, the sources are valid, and the differences in estimates are highlighted. --] (]) 18:19, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
::: Learn to read, man. Zuroff disputes the Rabbi's statement, not the 2003 book. And you removed the Zuroff reference when you undid the revision. ] (]) 18:40, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
::::Pls read the criteria for a Dubious tag, because you are misusing it. --] (]) 18:56, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
:::::] it is clear that ] is messing with the article text, by shorting some section and placing dubious tags on legitimate sources he does not like, at this point the behavior is becoming disruptive and appears borders on POV pushing. --] (]) 19:21, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
:::::: "Shorting some sections"? I didn't remove any unnecessary information, and the tag in question is there ''so we can keep the other editor's sources''. If I had removed material without any consideration you would've had a case, but thus far I kept everything both ] and yourself added. ] (]) 19:29, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
:::::: I even sent you a "thank you" after you reviewed a change and added a translation. I'm surprised you're finding this an issue and not the two vandalism attempts from earlier this evening. Rude! ] (]) 19:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
::::: I don't think I am. I believe the other editor may have misrepresented the source with no ill intent, which corresponds to "an editor's interpretation of that source" in ]. If you prefer any other template take your pick, just keep the <code>reason</code> parameter. ] (]) 19:29, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


Thanks ] (]) 02:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
=== Section ===
:{{done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 04:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
{{ping|E-960}} Why did you undo ] change? The two paragraphs are about the same body and some of text is redundant, plus two separate citations of the same book. ] (]) 19:35, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
:Seriously, The ] and ] are two separate entities, why else are there two separate Misplaced Pages article about them? --] (]) 19:39, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
:: Misplaced Pages isn't a source for Misplaced Pages... If you want, we can merge the two articles tomorrow, I have some spare time on 17:00.
:: Both articles make clear the connection between the two, together administering the daily affairs of their community: "The Judenräte also directed the Jewish police" and "auxiliary police units organized... by local Judenrat councils". This results in redundant material between the two paragraphs, not to mention generally bad style. What's your particular issue with the revision I made? ] (]) 19:49, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
:::No, just stop with the manipulative language, I'm not using Misplaced Pages as a source, and there is no need to merge the two paragraphs because each discusses a separate topic, one ] and the other ]. --] (]) 20:02, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
:::: What manipulative language?
:::: The articles themselves maintain that one was an extension of the other, and both are discussed here in the same contexts and in similar capacities, which again results in redundancy and bad style. Do you want specific examples? ] (]) 20:08, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


==Spain==
== PLEA TO ALL LATELY INVOLVED EDITORS ==
Why Francoist Spain isnt here? we literally have an article https://en.wikipedia.org/Wolfram_Crisis telling us how Franco provided the Reich wolframium to make bombs. The Spanish Civil War was a rehearsal for ww2, at least for mussolini's italy and nazi germany: both fascist (as franco) regimes used the spanish conflict to test on weapons, tactics and more. No mention of the Hendaya interview neither? (as spaniard this feels like the same american revisionism that allowed Franco to died in Bed) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small>


== ] has an ]==
I would like to appeal for some cooldown period and brief departure of your valuable experience and enthusiasm towards editing other articles. Sadly, I'm sensing some hostility developing among you that may lead to undesirable conflict and inevitable administrative intervention. Thank you guys for your time and see you here in the future. ] (]) 20:10, 17 February 2018 (UTC)


<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>''']''' has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the ''']'''.<!-- Template:Rfc notice--> Thank you. ] (]) 04:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
* Do you know how to slow down a tsunami (?), because I don't. Fortunately, we do have a ] rule here in Misplaced Pages meant to alert other Wikipedians to extreme partisan editing going on. I used the ] principle to direct your attention to ] material inserted into this article lately, which I described in my summaries as follows: ''"all of that "orgy" is utter nonsense → there was no "study", just brief mentions lumping ] with the locals of all possible ethnic makeup, ], hostile commentaries from dailies without research... wrong article"'' and later: → ''"another hostile case ready for WP:ANI and spilling out from the ] battleground"''. — Did any of you actually researched further the following statement in this article? {{tq|''"A 2014 study by historian Jan Grabowski found that in regards to Polish cooperation, "there were no bystanders." His study purports that around 200,000 Jews were kiled directly, or indirectly by Poles during the Holocaust."''}} — Do you know what 200,000 means? There were 110,000 Polish Jews the Lwów Ghetto, in Tarnopol: 20,000 in Stanislawów: 30,000. The author is probably quoting numbers established by the Holocaust historians for the grand total of Jewish victims of shooting operations carried out by indigenous ], estimated by Alexander Statiev at 150,000 Jews in Volhynia. Sloppy workmanship in the brief introduction there, with preposterous results in here. — ''Further information:'' Statiev Alexander (2010), ''The Soviet Counterinsurgency in the Western Borderlands'' Cambridge University Press. page 69. ''']''' ] 21:11, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
:— Actually, if you read very closely that little paragraph in his book to see how he arrived at that number, you will invariably realize that that number is a fabrication with no source of any kind beyond his personal interpretation of someone else's comment. ''']''' ] 21:29, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

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    • Itamar Eichner (February 12, 2023). "Misplaced Pages 'intentionally' distorts history of the Holocaust, study claims". Ynet. Retrieved February 13, 2023. For example, in the entry "Collaboration with the Axis powers", a section on Poland talks about the Jewish councils (Judenrat) and depicts them as cooperating with the Nazis. The councils, according to Misplaced Pages, had "Jewish-run governing bodies in Jewish communities and ghettos."
    Section sizes
    Section size for Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy (71 sections)
    Section name Byte
    count    		 Section
    total
    (Top) 1,838 1,838
    Terminology 1,626 1,626
    Collaboration in Western Europe 39 43,533
    Belgium 8,173 8,173
    British Channel Islands 1,540 1,540
    Denmark 6,231 6,231
    France 15 20,402
    Vichy France 2,154 2,154
    Collaborationist movements 1,830 1,830
    Uniformed collaboration 2,389 2,389
    Communist party 5,480 5,480
    French workers for Germany 1,724 1,724
    Vichy collaboration in the Holocaust 4,060 4,060
    Aftermath 2,750 2,750
    Luxembourg 1,330 1,330
    Monaco 587 587
    Netherlands 1,808 1,808
    Norway 3,423 3,423
    Collaboration in Eastern Europe 37 79,492
    Albania 2,243 2,243
    Baltic states 613 22,307
    Estonia 7,605 7,605
    Latvia 5,523 5,523
    Lithuania 8,566 8,566
    Bulgaria 1,679 1,679
    Czecho-Slovakia 77 3,625
    Sudetenland 1,286 1,286
    Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (the Czech lands) 1,688 1,688
    Slovak Republic 574 574
    Greece 4,044 4,044
    Hungary 6,464 6,464
    Poland 8,950 8,950
    Romania 4,769 4,769
    Yugoslavia 2,884 25,374
    Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia 1,966 11,571
    Serbian units 5,819 5,819
    Ethnic Russian units 973 973
    Banat 2,813 2,813
    Montenegro 900 900
    Kosovo 2,577 2,577
    Macedonia 470 470
    Slovene Lands 3,027 3,027
    Independent State of Croatia 3,365 3,365
    Bosnia 580 580
    Soviet Union 4,842 15,565
    Hiwis 1,646 1,646
    Eastern Legions 3,361 3,361
    Russia 1,341 2,276
    Kalmykians 935 935
    Belarus 1,115 1,115
    Transcaucasia 2,325 2,325
    Collaboration beyond Europe with the European Axis powers 183 10,596
    Egypt and the Palestine mandate 1,624 1,624
    French colonial empire 784 8,789
    French North Africa 2,697 5,366
    Morocco 1,692 1,692
    Tunisia 977 977
    French Equatorial Africa 466 466
    Syria and the Lebanon (League of Nations mandates) 2,173 2,173
    Foreign volunteers 196 4,174
    French military volunteers 859 859
    Volunteers from British India 1,645 1,645
    Non-German units of the Waffen-SS 1,474 1,474
    Business collaboration 7,131 7,131
    See also 654 654
    Notes 31 31
    References 15,866 28,404
    Bibliography 12,538 12,538
    Further reading 7,055 7,660
    Estonia 605 605
    External links 551 551
    Total 201,255 201,255

    France: do we need this milhist here for context?

    it could probably help another article if not: Vichy was also reluctant to either disarm or surrender its naval fleet in North Africa to the British, who worried that it might fall into German hands. Eventually the British Royal Navy sank or disabled most of the French Navy, killing over a thousand French sailors in a July 1940 attack on the Algerian naval port at Mers-el-Kébir.

    References

    1. See, for example, Winston S. Churchill, The Second World War, Volume 2: Their Finest Hour, London & New York, 1949, Book One, chapter 11, "Admiral Darlan and the French Fleet: Oran"

    Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 April 2024

    This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

    Please correct the opening comment tag and the opening reference tag in the following text in the References section:

    <~-- ref name="WSP-Ponary">{{in lang|pl}} Czesław Michalski, {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070207041704/http://www.wsp.krakow.pl/konspekt/konspekt5/ponary.html |date=7 February 2007 }} (Ponary – the Golgoth of Wilno Region). ''Konspekt'' nº 5, Winter 2000–2001, a publication of the ]. Retrieved 10 February 2007.</ref> -->

    I think that the correction should be:

    <!-- <ref name="WSP-Ponary">{{in lang|pl}} Czesław Michalski, {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20070207041704/http://www.wsp.krakow.pl/konspekt/konspekt5/ponary.html |date=7 February 2007 }} (Ponary – the Golgoth of Wilno Region). ''Konspekt'' nº 5, Winter 2000–2001, a publication of the ]. Retrieved 10 February 2007.</ref> -->


    Thanks 76.14.122.5 (talk) 02:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

     Done Jamedeus (talk) 04:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

    Spain

    Why Francoist Spain isnt here? we literally have an article https://en.wikipedia.org/Wolfram_Crisis telling us how Franco provided the Reich wolframium to make bombs. The Spanish Civil War was a rehearsal for ww2, at least for mussolini's italy and nazi germany: both fascist (as franco) regimes used the spanish conflict to test on weapons, tactics and more. No mention of the Hendaya interview neither? (as spaniard this feels like the same american revisionism that allowed Franco to died in Bed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.53.113.209 (talk • contribs)

    Philippe Pétain has an RfC

    Philippe Pétain has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Emiya1980 (talk) 04:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

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