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== Source for culture and art ==

- a BBC round-up of recent art projects. ] (]) 21:50, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
:], in the "17th century–present day knowledge and vernacular" section, we have some clitoris awareness material. A sentence or or a few sentences on what you cited above can be added to that section. ] (]) 21:36, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
::I've added from the BBC article, and I've found some other projects that deserve mention as well, so I've folded them all in. ] (]) 13:24, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
:::], I initially you, but I then most of the material. When it comes to big changes, keep in mind that changes are likely to be contested and this is already a big article. This is why it's best to propose big changes first. I tweaked some of your text. One issue with your edits is ]. Punctuation comes before the references. Another issue is ] wording; we should not state "recent" or "recently." Another issue is ]; stuff like "in fact" is not needed. And another issue is that this article uses a specific reference style, and is why ] fixes reference issues at this article. This article doesn't cite the full reference in the main text. A few cases do that at the moment, but they need to be fixed. If I am to have this article be elevated to ] status one day, consistent citation style is a part of that.

:::I don't feel that a "Contemporary art" section is needed. There's not much on clitoral art, and the art stuff could have continued to be covered in the "17th century–present day knowledge and vernacular" section, but having a "Contemporary art" section makes sense. I cut the first paragraph because it was not specifically about the clitoris. ] (]) 20:30, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
::::I am unclear what you mean here. Your first sentence says you "don't feel that a "Contemporary art" section is needed," but then end your comment by saying "having a Contemporary art" section makes sense." Perhaps you meant something different? I strongly believe that the art section improves the article. I also propose that we add a section on the clitoris in literature and poetry. Perhaps the section on art could be combined? e.g. Clitoris in art and literature? ] (]) 00:05, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
:::::How are you unclear? I gave my opinion and then noted that having a "Contemporary art" section makes sense despite my opinion. As for a section on the clitoris in literature and poetry, most of the Society and culture section is about the clitoris in literature. So what do you mean by "literature"? Books? I would need to see a proposed section in your sandbox before agreeing to it. ] (]) 00:24, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
::::::thanks for the clarification about what you meant about the addition of the art section. I like how the art section is coming together. I want the entries about Judy Chicago and Tee Corinne to be put back in as other examples of clitoral art. These two works are the first feminist representations of the clitoris and therefore should be included. We also might find a reference to the clitoris jewelry, glasswork, prints and paintings, and small sculptures that emerged from the 1970s cultural feminist art scene.] (]) 01:19, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

:::::::I have no issue with the Judy Chicago and Tee Corinne stuff being restored as long as it about the clitoris rather than vulva as a whole. Trappist the monk and I can clean up the references for you, but you should be looking at the citation style in the article and trying to format it on your own. Trappist the monk can help you learn if you ask him. As for other stuff, please propose the material in your sandbox first, and then link to it here, so that you and I, and others, can work on it together. ] (]) 01:40, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

== why compare to penis in the intro summary? ==

The third sentence of the introductory summary compares the penis to the clitoris. There is no similar statement in the introductory summary for the penis. https://en.wikipedia.org/Penis I deleted it and added a sentence about the sole function of the clitoris. ] (]) 02:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

:], it appears you were watching this article since you added a section about art after I was discussing it above with another editor. Whatever the case, as you can see , I reverted your changes to the lead. You removed important summary material. It is important, which is why we have an entire section comparing the penis to the clitoris. The ] is meant to summarize the article. As for "there is no similar statement in the introductory summary for the penis," look at the ] article. It does mention the clitoris since the two are ] (equivalent). That is why we compare them -- they are homologous and there is much literature comparing them, including in the case of ]. And like lower in the Human penis article, there is comparison material lower in this article. This article, however, is better put together because it is ]. The Human penis article is poor, and the ] article is even poorer. Also, your "In humans, the only purpose of the clitoris is to provide sexual pleasure." addition is not only likely not needed in the lead, it is . Yes, the clitoris only seems to be for pleasure in humans, but it is an aspect that has been challenged and it's not something that needs to be in the lead unless we include it in the "whether the clitoris is vestigial, an adaptation, or serves a reproductive function" paragraph. In that paragraph, we could state the following: "Although, in humans, the only known purpose of the clitoris is to provide sexual pleasure, whether the clitoris is vestigial, an adaptation, or serves a reproductive function has been argued."

:When it comes to "female midwives during the ] knew about the clitoris, believing that orgasm aided women to become pregnant" part you added, it is already in the article. It is in the "17th century–present day knowledge and vernacular" section, which states, "''Although 17th-century midwives recommended to men and women that women should aspire to achieve orgasms to help them get pregnant for general health and well-being and to keep their relationships healthy.''" This is a big article. Whatever you are thinking is not covered in it is likely covered in it. Also, per ], we simply call the sections "Society and culture," not "Society, culture, and history." When you see a ], it is there for a reason. The hidden note that you removed and I restored states, "''No History subheading was created, because it is unnecessary/non-beneficial to artificially separate the historical content from the Society and culture section; it's all society and culture.''" This is true. A "History" subheading is not always needed. Also, this article uses a particular citation style. So your citation style should follow that, although Trappist the monk is here to help.

:I ask that you propose/discuss any significant changes before making them to this article. ] (]) 20:30, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
== Can someone help with an image? ==

The new section on art lacks any image, which isn't ideal. Common sense tells me that including a logo or advertising material ought to be fair use, but I can't cite WP chapter and verse. I'm thinking of something like for the ClitArt Festival. Can someone add it, or something else appropriate? ] (]) 13:28, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
:I've now copied the artwork from ], but still, one of the "poster" images for the ClitArt festival or Clitorissima film would be a useful addition. ] (]) 13:45, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
::check out the cool CC image here: https://theconversation.com/why-the-clitoris-doesnt-get-the-attention-it-deserves-and-why-this-matters-53157 May not work for this article, but an image to keep in mind. ] (]) 00:17, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

== Citation style ==

], when you get the chance, will you fix the instances that have the references directly in the main text and relocate them to the References section instead? Or do you recommend that we finally use a different citation style for the whole article? As you can see with , despite what I stated above, AnaSoc still used a different citation style. ] (]) 23:09, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

== purpose of clitoris ==

Scientific and medical debates about the clitoris has for generations rendered the clitoris invisible and/or maligned. Modern scientists agree that the evolutionary purpose of the clitoris is for sexual pleasure. This is well documented and is one of the most important facts about the clitoris. I would like to see this fact in the summary. ] (]) 00:10, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
: you mean the part where it says: "The clitoris is the human female's most sensitive erogenous zone and generally ''the primary anatomical source of human female sexual pleasure''" in the second Paragraph, or maybe "Extensive sociological, sexological and medical debate have focused on the clitoris, primarily concerning anatomical accuracy, orgasmic factors and their physiological explanation for the G-spot. Although, ''in humans, the only known purpose of the clitoris is to provide sexual pleasure''" in Para 3? ] (]) 00:18, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

::thanks for pointing me to this. But I mean a general statement of the function of the clitoris in the first paragraph, the function that is common to all animals, not just humans. ] (]) 01:19, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

:::], and per what I stated below, that piece does not belong in the very first sentence. Except for sexual pleasure, anatomists and scientists do not know what the purpose of the clitoris is. They speculate, yes, but they are also clear that they have no definitive answer. We have a whole section about it. And we have Helen O'Connell, one of the main researchers who has advanced the knowledge of the clitoris, stating. "''It boils down to rivalry between the sexes: the idea that one sex is sexual and the other reproductive. The truth is that both are sexual and both are reproductive.''" We also know that the spotted hyena does not only use the clitoris for sexual pleasure, and, according to the , it seems that the clitoris does not solely exist for sexual pleasure in a few other animals as well. Also, for flow and structure, debate material should stay in the debate paragraph of the lead. ] (]) 01:40, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

:I already replied in the ] section immediately above and below. ] (]) 00:24, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

== Latest edits ==

], like I stated above, this article is ], which means that care needs to be taken with it. Not only has wording for the article been extensively worked out, it follows a particular citation style. Despite me noting that it follows a particular citation style, you did not take the time to try to learn it or ask about it. Instead, you yet another piece that does not align with the citation style for this article. And despite what I stated on your talk page about ] edits, you are still marking non-minor edits as minor. I reverted you on because the "only the button-like portion" is "visible externally" part mainly applies to humans. It clearly does not apply to spotted hyenas, for example. And "this highly complex organ" piece is unnecessary ] on your part. I'm not opposed to changing "well-developed" to "large," and I went ahead and did that. But, again, you are not trying to discuss, even after I asked you to above and noted on your talk page that you should. This is to avoid mistakes, redundancies, guideline issues and ]. And as for , we follow what the sources state. It is not our job to ]. If the source states "pea," so do we. And regarding , on what grounds are you arguing that this is false? Yes, the clitoris has been subject to much ] debate. Are you "defining sociological debate" differently? You also returned "sole purpose" material. You did it in a similar way I suggested, but it does not belong in the first paragraph. So I it to the relevant paragraph and used my suggested wording. If you keep editing ], I will be reporting it.

] and ], I assume you are still watching the article. Can I get your thoughts on this? We have an editor -- AnaSoc -- who is not listening and seems to sometimes be editing from her own viewpoint. ] (]) 00:14, 7 March 2018 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2024 ==
:please point me to a source that verifies that there has been "extensive sociological... debate... concerning anatomical accuracy, orgasmic factors and their physiological explanation for the G-spot." This is anatomy, not sociology. Thanks. ] (]) 00:21, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
::], I am well-aware that this "is anatomy, not sociology." And? It is still a fact that the clitoris has been subject to much social//sociological/societal debate, as the article makes abundantly clear. Why else do you think the speaks of "''terminology used by college students, ranging from Euro-American (76%/76%), Hispanic (18%/14%), and African American (4%/7%), regarding the students' beliefs about sexuality and knowledge on the ''" and "''A 2005 study reported that, among a sample of undergraduate students, the most frequently cited sources for knowledge about the clitoris were school and friends, and that this was associated with the least amount of tested knowledge"''? And what do you make of the ] aspect, which is mentioned in sociology books, such as 1998 "Modernity, Medicine, and Health: Medical Sociology Towards 2000" source, from ], page 117, which speaks of "'''fierce debate among feminists'''"? Is none of this sociology in your opinion? What about ]? What about 2008 "Sociology for Social Workers" source, from ], page 163, which states, "''Nymphomania was the medical term given to women who were seen as having unhealthy sexual desires or fixations. The condition was also seen to affect women's genitals, and in some cases led to clitoridectomies (castration of the clitoris). Goldberg (1999) discusses how women were subjected to a range of treatments to cure abnormal sexual desires.''"? And, yes, this aspect is also already covered in the article. There's also sources like 2016 "Sociology: The Essentials" source, from ], page 52, which states, "''Many have called for international intervention to eliminate , but there is also a '''debate''' about whether disgust at this practice should be balanced by a reluctance to impose Western cultural values on other societies.''" Sources on these matters are in the article; I have not falsified a thing. Once again, you need to start discussing first. Adding first and then discussing is not ideal on a high-profile anatomy/medical article such as this. Read ].


{{Edit semi-protected|Clitoris|answered=yes}}
::], good to see you at this article as well. ] (]) 01:07, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Removal of the term sex organ. The clitoris is NOT an organ. It is like a nipple or urethra.
It is a raised region of nerve endings that cause sexual arousal when stimulated.
Even check Misplaced Pages sex organ definition. This is NOT an organ, as in heart, stomach, lungs. It is a feature of the vulva with the function of sexual arousal & pleasure.
Misplaced Pages should not be this bad. Fix this ! ] (]) 23:54, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> that describes it as a sex organ. ] (]) 00:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
:{{ping|RoseEatsRice}} The clitoris is uniquely involved in arousal & orgasm, characteristics of a secondary sex organ. As per your statement {{tq|Even check Misplaced Pages sex organ definition}}, in the ] of '']'' it states that {{tq|the female sex organs include the ovaries, ], ], ], ], and ''']'''.}} That article also states {{tq|''Secondary sex organs'' are the rest of the reproductive system, whether internal or external. The ] term ''genitalia'', sometimes anglicized as ''genitals'', is used to describe the externally visible sex organs: in female mammals, the ].}}
:In the '']'' article, the lead states {{tq|The ] vulva includes the ] (or mons veneris), ], ], ''']''', ], ], ], the ], ], and ] and ] vestibular ]s.}}
:I have added bold to certain terms & italics for emphasis so that you may better understand. To state that the {{!tq|clitoris is NOT an organ}} is an obviously inaccurate claim. ] (]) 20:50, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
::The logic for maintaining the status quo does not follow. Your argument summarizes:
::"The clitoris is part of the vulva, and the vulva is a sex organ, therefore the clitoris is a sex organ."
::That's akin to saying "A wheel is part of a car, and a car is a vehicle, therefore a wheel is a vehicle."
::Which is silly.
::You also referred to the clitoris as a "secondary sex organ". If there exists a well-sourced definition of "secondary sex organ" that includes the clitoris then the wording should change to clearly say "secondary sex organ", not "sex organ", linked as appropriate.
::An edit is warranted in either case. ] (]) 20:10, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:10, 8 March 2024

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Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2024

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Removal of the term sex organ. The clitoris is NOT an organ. It is like a nipple or urethra. It is a raised region of nerve endings that cause sexual arousal when stimulated. Even check Misplaced Pages sex organ definition. This is NOT an organ, as in heart, stomach, lungs. It is a feature of the vulva with the function of sexual arousal & pleasure. Misplaced Pages should not be this bad. Fix this ! RoseEatsRice (talk) 23:54, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: here's a source that describes it as a sex organ. M.Bitton (talk) 00:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
@RoseEatsRice: The clitoris is uniquely involved in arousal & orgasm, characteristics of a secondary sex organ. As per your statement Even check Misplaced Pages sex organ definition, in the MOS:LEAD of sex organ it states that the female sex organs include the ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus, cervix, vagina, and vulva. That article also states Secondary sex organs are the rest of the reproductive system, whether internal or external. The Latin term genitalia, sometimes anglicized as genitals, is used to describe the externally visible sex organs: in female mammals, the vulva.
In the vulva article, the lead states The human vulva includes the mons pubis (or mons veneris), labia majora, labia minora, clitoris, vestibular bulbs, vulval vestibule, urinary meatus, the vaginal opening, hymen, and Bartholin's and Skene's vestibular glands.
I have added bold to certain terms & italics for emphasis so that you may better understand. To state that the clitoris is NOT an organ is an obviously inaccurate claim. Peaceray (talk) 20:50, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
The logic for maintaining the status quo does not follow. Your argument summarizes:
"The clitoris is part of the vulva, and the vulva is a sex organ, therefore the clitoris is a sex organ."
That's akin to saying "A wheel is part of a car, and a car is a vehicle, therefore a wheel is a vehicle."
Which is silly.
You also referred to the clitoris as a "secondary sex organ". If there exists a well-sourced definition of "secondary sex organ" that includes the clitoris then the wording should change to clearly say "secondary sex organ", not "sex organ", linked as appropriate.
An edit is warranted in either case. 24.137.93.163 (talk) 20:10, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
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