Revision as of 14:56, 21 April 2018 editOknazevad (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users106,357 edits →World Dice Day← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 08:20, 8 November 2024 edit undoNø (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,549 edits →Probability theory: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
(57 intermediate revisions by 29 users not shown) | |||
Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
{{Skip to talk}} | {{Skip to talk}} | ||
{{Talk header}} | {{Talk header}} | ||
{{Vital article | |||
| topic = Life | |||
| level = 4 | |||
| class = C | |||
}} | |||
{{Article history | {{Article history | ||
| action1 = FAC | | action1 = FAC | ||
Line 30: | Line 25: | ||
| topic = sports | | topic = sports | ||
}} | }} | ||
{{WikiProject banner shell|1= | {{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1 = | ||
{{WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors|old-user-1=Quadell|old-date-1=13:47, 29 September 2013|old-user-2=Greatpopcorn|old-date-2= 01:13, 13 November 2013}} | |||
{{WikiProject Board and table games|class=C|importance=Top}} | |||
{{WikiProject |
{{WikiProject Board and table games|importance=Top}} | ||
{{WikiProject |
{{WikiProject Role-playing games|importance=High}} | ||
{{WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons| importance = Mid}} | |||
| b1 <!--Referencing & citations--> = no | |||
| b2 <!--Coverage & accuracy --> = <yes/no> | |||
| b3 <!--Structure --> = yes | |||
| b4 <!--Grammar & style --> = <yes/no> | |||
| b5 <!--Supporting materials --> = yes | |||
| b6 <!--Accessibility --> = <yes/no>}} | |||
{{WP1.0 | |||
| class = C | |||
| b1 = | |||
| b2 = | |||
| b3 = | |||
| b4 = | |||
| b5 = | |||
| b6 = | |||
| importance = | |||
| category = everydaylife | |||
| WPCD = | |||
| v0.5 = | |||
| v0.7 = pass | |||
| v1.0 = | |||
| VA = | |||
| core = | |||
| coresup = | |||
| listas = | |||
| small = | |||
}} | }} | ||
}} | |||
{{Find sources notice}} | |||
{{auto archiving notice|bot=MiszaBot I|age=90|dounreplied=yes}} | |||
{{User:MiszaBot/config | {{User:MiszaBot/config | ||
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} | |archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} | ||
|maxarchivesize = 100K | |maxarchivesize = 100K | ||
|counter = |
|counter = 2 | ||
|minthreadsleft = 4 | |minthreadsleft = 4 | ||
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 | |minthreadstoarchive = 1 | ||
Line 72: | Line 40: | ||
|archive = Talk:Dice/Archive %(counter)d | |archive = Talk:Dice/Archive %(counter)d | ||
}} | }} | ||
{{WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors|old-user-1=Quadell|old-date-1=13:47, 29 September 2013|old-user-2=Greatpopcorn|old-date-2= 01:13, 13 November 2013}} | |||
== history == | |||
There aren't mentions about ] ] (]) 13:28, 26 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
== External links modified == | |||
Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070620035304/http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=5668§ionid=351020108 to http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/5668.html | |||
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. | |||
{{sourcecheck|checked=true|needhelp=}} | |||
Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 15:46, 4 June 2017 (UTC) | |||
== External links modified == | |||
Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
I have just modified 3 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080501172614/http://www.gamesmuseum.uwaterloo.ca/Archives/Culin/Dice1893/dice.html to http://www.gamesmuseum.uwaterloo.ca/Archives/Culin/Dice1893/dice.html | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131101141751/http://www.minitab.com/uploadedFiles/Shared_Resources/Documents/Articles/CentralLimitTheorem.pdf to http://www.minitab.com/uploadedFiles/Shared_Resources/Documents/Articles/CentralLimitTheorem.pdf | |||
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120528013233/http://www.aleakybos.ch/Properties%20of%20Dice.pdf to http://www.aleakybos.ch/Properties%20of%20Dice.pdf | |||
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. | |||
{{sourcecheck|checked=true|needhelp=}} | |||
Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 06:17, 10 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
==Average dice throw== | |||
Section 5.1.2 of the article states: | |||
>>> | |||
A variation on the standard die is known as the "average" die. These are six-sided dice with sides numbered 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, which results in the same '''average result''' as a standard die (3.5 for a single die, 7 for a pair of dice), but have a narrower range of possible values (2 through 5 for one, 4 through 10 for a pair). They are used in some table-top wargames, where a narrower range of numbers is required. | |||
<<< | |||
To roll a dice is a random event/process and in statistics, these events are not called average result, expected value would be the suitable/proper team. In short, to call it average result would be wrong. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:26, 17 September 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:That's not what the use means. It's not talking about likeliness of outcomes, which, but the actual average (arithmetic mean) of all the possible sums. The use of the technical term needs better explanation. ] (]) 14:59, 17 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
Hello Oknazevad, | |||
I don't agree. | |||
The paragraph it not referring to the likelihood of outcomes. The likelihood for each number for throwing a dice is 1/n. For a dice n=6. | |||
So the probability is 1/6. | |||
To roll a dice is in probability theory an event described by a uniform distribution. To find an average of a UD you have to sum up all possible outcomes and divide this by the count of outcomes: | |||
n=6 | |||
1+2+3+4+5+6=21 | |||
21/6= 3.5 | |||
This average what you get is called expected value. | |||
To get the expected value of throwing a dice in real you would have to roll the dice an infinite amount of throws than calculate the average of all throws. | |||
It doesn't matter if a 6 sided dice has 1-6 on its sides or 2,3,3,4,4,5. The expected value for both variants of dices is 3.5. | |||
Further, you state, the use of this technical term needs better explanation: | |||
This means you agree it is the proper term, but it's too difficult to understand? | |||
If the term expected value needs a better explanation what about to change the term into a hyperlink referring to an online encyclopedia (e.g. Misplaced Pages) explaining it? | |||
] (]) 14:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
to Oknazevad: | |||
I got to know this stuff in Quantitative Methods - Statistics at Koblenz University of Applied Science (Germany) the Faculty of Business and Management. Thanks to Prof. Dr. G.S. | |||
] (]) 18:36, 19 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
== fair and less fair == | |||
Hello Oknazevad, | |||
How about splitting the "Rarer" table into isohedral (including "long" dice) and other? ] (]) 05:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
you did not make any comment to my explanation: You did not write, I am wrong or I am right or somewhere in between. | |||
Your edit summary says: | |||
:I'm curious how that would look. ] (]) 13:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
''No, the sum of the possible outcome values divided by the number of possible outcomes is an arithmetic mean, not an expected value. That's the point of the passage.'' | |||
::Most of the non-isohedral dice have the word "truncated" in the table. All ]s, all ]s and ], and (effectively) all long dice are isohedral. ] (]) 05:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Die or Dice == | |||
That's wrong, why? | |||
Look at my next-to-last post in the Talk section related to the article. | |||
Referring to your explanation, it all comes down to a random event. | |||
Additionally, you reverted my edit instead of doing a new one will deteriorate some of my edit statistics. It seems like, you try to tease me on purpose. | |||
For articles like ], ], ] and many others, the article title is singular, though several of the objects are usually used together. | |||
If you got the courage to challenge me, defuse my arguments. | |||
For dice, the singular can be ''die'' or ''dice'' and the plural is ''dice''. Thus, the title ] could be either, but the start of the article makes it seem to be plural: | |||
Let's assume you throw a 6 sided dice: | |||
:'''''Dice''' (sg.: '''die''' or '''dice''') are small, throwable objects ...'' | |||
You could calculate the expected value before you throw the dice as every outcome got the same probability. | |||
(my point being: this only makes sense if the first word is understood as plural). | |||
You could calculate the average e.g. after you throw the dice 9 times: | |||
This is kind of odd, I think. Would this be better? | |||
:''A '''die''' (sg. die or '''dice''', pl. '''dice''') is a small, throwable object ... | |||
Logically, one might say this should go with renaming the article ], but I wouldn't support renaming. | |||
Also, given title ], this would be more logical: | |||
:''A '''dice''' (sg. dice or '''die''', pl. '''dice''') is a small, throwable object ... | |||
but I actually prefer my first version. Or perhaps this: | |||
:''A '''die''' (sg. also '''dice''', pl. '''dice''') is a small, throwable object ... | |||
Thoughts? ] (]) 08:03, 30 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I support: A '''dice''' ({{singular}} dice or ''' die'''; {{plural form}} dice) is a small, throwable object... <span style="font-family:cursive;color:DarkBlue;cursor:help"><span>]</span><sup>(])</sup></span> 08:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
2 4 3 2 3 3 6 2 3 | |||
::That would be logical, yes! | |||
::Arguably, with that lead, it would be odd that we throughout the article use the singular '''die''', and I don't think we should change that, which is why I prefer "A die (...) is". | |||
::(We use "die" 73 times and "dice" 129 times, and though I haven't checked all 129 instances, it seems that when we use "dice" it is either plural or dice as a concept, where using the plural form is at least possible.) ] (]) 10:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Only idiots use dice as a singular.--] (]) (]) 18:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Why would you want to be so rude? Both forms are correct. ] (]) 16:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Where, if at all, to put basic stat info for nDs dice == | |||
Generated with the randbetween function from MS Excel 2013 | |||
The sum is 28 / 9 = 3.111111... | |||
The 3.111111... is the average. | |||
The 3.5 is the expected value, even if your average differentiates, you knew this figure even before you threw the dice. | |||
The paragraph doesn't state how often you would throw and the outcome so it is referring to the expected value. | |||
A while back, related to some research I was doing, I needed to gather some basic info about the results you get when rolling nDs+c and nDs-c dice -- It discussed the minimum value, maximum value, and most likely value(s) you get for particular nm s and c, including when the adjusted rolls would result in a negative value. This info has been useful for my fellow gamers, and I think it would be of interest to other d20 players, as well as those interested in dice probability, and perhaps probability more generally. As far as I was able to discover, this info is not grouped together in one place on the Web -- or, if it is, I could not find after a lot of googling. | |||
Hereby I provide a source to calculate the expected value from a dice throw: | |||
<br>http://www.mathwords.com/e/expected_value.htm | |||
I've been told by a knowledgeable editor that such info is too detailed for the Dice page. Dice Notation was suggested as a location for it, but that page is about (several different) dice notations, and doesn't really get into the probability behavior of info related to them (sensible; the page is about notation, not stats). It also seems inappropriate to place this info on its own page; seems too detailed for that. So, I'd like the community's input: Is there an appropriate page for this info? Should it be on a new page after all? Or it is just too esoteric to be in Misplaced Pages? | |||
] (]) 19:44, 20 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
Many thanks for your advice! ] (]) 23:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
:To be honest, I am having difficulty following your argument because of your grammar. Regardless, as I said in my edit summary, the sentence is about the name of the variant, which derives not from looking at the outcome of rolls, regardless of how many, but merely the average of the values of the faces, merely that (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 is the same as (2+3+3+4+4+5)/6. There's no statistical probability involved, so any mention of expected outcomes is irrelevant. ] (]) 22:34, 20 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
== |
== Probability theory == | ||
Obviously, ] is not something we should get into detalis about in this article. However, I think one, reading this article, should be no more than a click or two away from getting info about the relevant probability theory when throwing e.g. two identical dice, or two differently coloured dice, simultaneously. Perhaps it can be fixed by adding an appropriate link in the section ], but I'm not sure how, or what to link. Ideas? ] (]) 12:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
I wonder if it would be interesting to add something about the World Dice Day, held on 4th december each year? | |||
:I added a brief paragraph to the "Use" section, linking to probability theory. I agree, it should be somewhere in the article, and this looked like a good spot to me. ] (]) 06:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 06:17, 21 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks! ] (]) 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Nah, too trivial. If every Misplaced Pages article mentioned it's honorary day that is not widely known it would make the encyclopedia look silly. ] (]) 14:55, 21 April 2018 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 08:20, 8 November 2024
Skip to table of contents |
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Dice article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 3 months |
Dice was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
This level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
fair and less fair
How about splitting the "Rarer" table into isohedral (including "long" dice) and other? —Tamfang (talk) 05:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm curious how that would look. BOZ (talk) 13:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Most of the non-isohedral dice have the word "truncated" in the table. All Catalan solids, all bipyramids and trapezohedra, and (effectively) all long dice are isohedral. —Tamfang (talk) 05:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Die or Dice
For articles like Token, Chess piece, Coin and many others, the article title is singular, though several of the objects are usually used together.
For dice, the singular can be die or dice and the plural is dice. Thus, the title Dice could be either, but the start of the article makes it seem to be plural:
- Dice (sg.: die or dice) are small, throwable objects ...
(my point being: this only makes sense if the first word is understood as plural). This is kind of odd, I think. Would this be better?
- A die (sg. die or dice, pl. dice) is a small, throwable object ...
Logically, one might say this should go with renaming the article Die, but I wouldn't support renaming. Also, given title Dice, this would be more logical:
- A dice (sg. dice or die, pl. dice) is a small, throwable object ...
but I actually prefer my first version. Or perhaps this:
- A die (sg. also dice, pl. dice) is a small, throwable object ...
Thoughts? Nø (talk) 08:03, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- I support: A dice (sg. dice or die; pl. dice) is a small, throwable object... Alexeyevitch 08:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- That would be logical, yes!
- Arguably, with that lead, it would be odd that we throughout the article use the singular die, and I don't think we should change that, which is why I prefer "A die (...) is".
- (We use "die" 73 times and "dice" 129 times, and though I haven't checked all 129 instances, it seems that when we use "dice" it is either plural or dice as a concept, where using the plural form is at least possible.) Nø (talk) 10:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Only idiots use dice as a singular.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- Why would you want to be so rude? Both forms are correct. Nø (talk) 16:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- Only idiots use dice as a singular.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
Where, if at all, to put basic stat info for nDs dice
A while back, related to some research I was doing, I needed to gather some basic info about the results you get when rolling nDs+c and nDs-c dice -- It discussed the minimum value, maximum value, and most likely value(s) you get for particular nm s and c, including when the adjusted rolls would result in a negative value. This info has been useful for my fellow gamers, and I think it would be of interest to other d20 players, as well as those interested in dice probability, and perhaps probability more generally. As far as I was able to discover, this info is not grouped together in one place on the Web -- or, if it is, I could not find after a lot of googling.
I've been told by a knowledgeable editor that such info is too detailed for the Dice page. Dice Notation was suggested as a location for it, but that page is about (several different) dice notations, and doesn't really get into the probability behavior of info related to them (sensible; the page is about notation, not stats). It also seems inappropriate to place this info on its own page; seems too detailed for that. So, I'd like the community's input: Is there an appropriate page for this info? Should it be on a new page after all? Or it is just too esoteric to be in Misplaced Pages?
Many thanks for your advice! Eclectucator (talk) 23:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
Probability theory
Obviously, probability theory is not something we should get into detalis about in this article. However, I think one, reading this article, should be no more than a click or two away from getting info about the relevant probability theory when throwing e.g. two identical dice, or two differently coloured dice, simultaneously. Perhaps it can be fixed by adding an appropriate link in the section Dice#Use, but I'm not sure how, or what to link. Ideas? Nø (talk) 12:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
- I added a brief paragraph to the "Use" section, linking to probability theory. I agree, it should be somewhere in the article, and this looked like a good spot to me. Fieari (talk) 06:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks! Nø (talk) 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
- Delisted good articles
- B-Class level-4 vital articles
- Misplaced Pages level-4 vital articles in Everyday life
- B-Class vital articles in Everyday life
- Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors
- B-Class board and table game articles
- Top-importance board and table game articles
- WikiProject Board and table games articles
- B-Class role-playing game articles
- High-importance role-playing game articles
- WikiProject Role-playing games articles
- B-Class Dungeons & Dragons articles
- Mid-importance Dungeons & Dragons articles
- B-Class Dungeons & Dragons articles of Mid-importance
- All Dungeons & Dragons articles